UPDATE: Tim Challies has just posted an amazing bit on the inner-workings of church marketing. If there are doubters out there about how we are perceived by the Publishing interests, this will sober you up. Required reading.
Some of my long time readers may remember that in a long-forgotten fit of exuberance, I swore off visiting Christian bookstores. I’ll have to confess that I’ve mostly kept that vow, but I’ve strayed enough to keep the economy stimulated. I don’t want those Lifeway employees to be laid off on account of me.
Actually, I live 2 hours from the nearest “real” Christian bookstore, (not counting local operations that I avoid completely) so it doesn’t take a great effort on my part to abstain. I spend my book money at Amazon. My employer lets me spend a little money at Lifeway, so I stopped in today, while I was in Lexington to see my daughter, and took a quick look around. I came out with some music. No books or other trinkets. I thought I would pen a few impressions for those of you who don’t get out much.
One cannot say it enough: The book selection in the average Lifeway is horrendous. (Seminary stores accepted.) There is a large section called “Christian Living,” and 98% of the books found there never needed to be written. The packaging is very nice. The titles are cute. But after that, things get desperately discouraging. Politics. Family Values. Sentimental devotionalism. Nonsense. Bad advice. Mumbling. Many books that seem to have no purpose for their existence. I mean, books that retread the same messages that evangelicals have been writing for a century. Spurgeon at his worst was miles beyond what you find here. Of course, it’s all packaged very nicely, with catchy titles designed to grab the shopper with the idea that something significant lurks between the pages.
What I strongly suspect is that the evangelical book-buyer isn’t really viewed as a reader so much as a labratory chimp whose behavior can be safely predicted when put in the presence of certain words, colors, sounds and sentences.
There is, btw, a “Theology” section in most Lifeways. In some stores it is modest, in others, nearly invisible. I suspect very few stores have anyone on staff with an idea what kinds of books should be found on such a shelf. In one Lifeway I visit in a community of 55,000, one finds less than 30 books in the section, with the majority of those referring to issues of recent interest to Southern Baptist conservative pastors. Of course, there are many Bibles and Bible reference materials in most Lifeways, but almost no theology. Bibles and Christian Living, but a shrinking interest in theology. You can draw your own conclusions. I think it tells a story.
I continue to be amazed at how Christian publishers are getting multiple works out of their best-selling writers. How many Jabez books do we need? Beth Moore’s output of material- and accompanying products- is astonishing. I’m grateful for Beth Moore’s ministry, but I am uncomfortable with the implications of this trend on the ministry of pastoral teaching in local churches. If our pastors aren’t teaching their people, who gave the Christian publishers and parachurch ministries the green light to fill the gap? Thousands of Baptist churches have “Women’s Bible Studies” going that would never be in existence if the pastor were the leader. What’s up with that? I am all for good curriculum, but I don’t want N.T. Wright, John Piper or anyone else replacing the teaching ministry of local church pastors and elders, especially at the instigation of Christian publishers who want to sell products. The issue of accountability is seriously compromised with the proliferation of replacement Bible teachers packaged and sold by Lifeway.
Before we leave Lifeway, I have to tell about an incident I observed. I was standing near the check-out, looking through my wallet for my account number. A man came to the check-out with his material. As the Lifeway employee was checking him out, she said the following: “Do you read John Eldredge? He has a new book for wives……etc.” She plugged an Eldredge book as this guy was checking out. A scripted plug.
OK. I know enough about retail to know what’s going on here. Management has the employees plugging this book. Lifeway is pushing the book, just like the girl at the drive-through asks you if you want the Biggee Fries. It’s coming down from Nashville. (The girl didn’t plug the book with me. I suppose I don’t appear “Wild At Heart.” I’m a little more Dilbert-esque.)
I’m a capitalist, and Lifeway can sell whatever they want however they want to sell it. I’ll just say this: Someone needs to wake-up and realize that Lifeway is pushing the teachers and the teaching that suit their purposes of making money FIRST, and not the purposes of your local church, its people or its leaders. This is what Christian publishers do. Yes, they are great people who want to help churches and Christians, etc., yada, etc. Just remember why that book was being pushed, and all kinds of great books will never be endorsed or even displayed at those stores. They are telling you that you need to read Eldredge. They are telling YOU and your church, “These are the teachers you need to be listening to.” It’s distressing.
Actually, since there was nothing there, my time in Lifeway was short. I traveled over to the local Barnes and Noble, where I’ve found a couple of things to be true. First, the religion section is a lot more impressive and eclectic than any Christian bookstore I’ve visited. Lots of books that would never be in a Lifeway. Catholic authors. Liberals. Academics. Second, B&N gets the new books almost immediately, which is very unusual here in Kentucky and really draws me in. For instance, some books that aren’t available till the spring were in B&N today.
So I am scouring the Christianity section and I make an observation. Here in front of me is a shelf with books by Thomas Merton and Brannon Manning. One shelf. And below these two is a shelf and a half of books by General Joyce Meyer. (For all you need to know about General Joyce, go googling. But start here at Trinity Foundation. Go down the page to the articles from the St. Louis paper on Meyer’s empire. Don’t write and tell me I am slandering her. Write the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.)
I started to look around. Joyce Meyer’s books were everywhere in Barnes and Noble. Two shelves. Two tables. Displays. New books at the front. Even at the check out, looking at me from a display behind the desk. This is weird. Rick Warren has convinced these bookstores that there is money to be made, and General Joyce is cranking out all kinds of titles that look great in B&N. So we’ve gone from a generic evangelical Baptist to an intimidating female word-faith life coach who flashes the bling-bling at every opportunity, and she’s looking at me from every aisle like she wants to hit me.
This is creepy. While Meyer is theologically light years ahead of Joel Osteen, she’s also a classic televangelist multi-mazillionaire scamming tons of people while she purports to be using the money responsibly. (Read the articles. Don’t bark at me.) And she’s taken over Barnes and Noble. I kept looking for her jet in the parking lot.
Now that Rick Warren has revealed the buckets of money to be made, the larger publishing industry will be pushing the Osteens and the Meyers to the top of the pile. Why? They know how to play the game. The titles. The packaging. The rehashed content. The multiple tie-ins to some big event at a stadium. General Joyce has the added bonus of being a cross between Dr. Laura and Lou Gossett, Jr in An Officer And A Gentleman. She’s the pastor most Southern Baptists wish they had, even though their version of God won’t allow her in the ministry.
With so few pastors helping their people sort through this mess, and with Christian television pumping Joyce Meyer into our homes 24/7, it’s no wonder she’s a hit with the “practical Bible teaching” crowd. That success will translate into books, and as fast as she can crank them out, title them and smile for the cover photo, they will be at a Wal-Mart near you. If you love God and your kids, you’ll buy them all.
I’m safely back home now. General Joyce couldn’t stop my escape. But I have my feeling she’s on the march, and no where will be safe. I’m pretty sure some of the women in my church are her admirers. I know she has a following on the OBI staff.
What can I do? Well, I’m thinking of seeing how I look in high heels and a dress. Two can play at this game.
The Internet Monk Archives 
why do you call her ‘general’?
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You people are so bright and fun. I agree that the christian market is completely out of control. How come no one mentions “Women of Faith”. There is no bigger money making, movie stars on the planet. Big introductions, plugging product and charging you to listen to it all.
The christian book market is hurting. Many have closed due to Walmart and other retailers. It’s a dying industry mostly do to their own fault of catering to the masses instead of focusing on the work of the Lord.
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Requirements for Ministry: Can a Woman be a Minister? By Dianne D. McDonnell Can a woman be a minister of Jesus Christ? There is a lot of background information that is helpful for us as we examine this important issue. • In his paper, Women in Leadership John H. Currier explains JesusÂ’ attitude toward women and points out specific women in leadership roles in the early church. • A Church Without Women, explains the mistranslation and misunderstanding of the two scriptural passages commonly sited for denying women a public teaching role. • A Church With Women documents female ministers in the New Testament era while acknowledging a husbandÂ’s leadership role within the family. • Gary L. McDonnellÂ’s paper, A Church With Love deals with the scriptures about love and shows how this applies to the issue of womenÂ’s role in the church. • All of these papers and more can be obtained from the Web Site of The Church of God, Dallas-Fort Worth at ChurchofGodDFW.com or write to P.O. Box 152544, Arlington, TX 76015. These papers reveal many Biblical references to women leaders and ministers, but are there any historical references to back up the Biblical record? History Documents Early Female Ministers “Two women ministers at Bithynia-Pontus in Asia Minor were tortured during Emperor TrajanÂ’s reign (AD 98-117) as the leaders and most knowledgeable persons in their congregation. After Pliny describes a report of an apparently innocuous service he decides, ‘it was all the more necessary to extract the truth by torture from the slavewomen, whom they called ministers’” (The Letters of Pliny, Bk.X.96). As quoted by Aida Besancon Spencer, Beyond The Curse, page 115. Two things jump out at us as we read this, first is the utter contempt in PlinyÂ’s words, “the slave women, whom they called ministers.” To him they were the lowest form of life—slaves—and females at that! Yet the early church called them ministers! Second, these two brave women who died for the faith illustrate that the early church believed “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Gal. 3:28. It was not some hollow tenet that would take place in the resurrection. They were female and they were ministers and they died for Jesus Christ! The Scriptural Requirements for Ministry Even if there are female ministers mentioned in history, there remains one very critical issue. DonÂ’t the scriptural requirements for ministry specify men as ministers? We must base all our beliefs on the Bible and always be able to prove with scriptures what we believe. However, we are faced with the problem of translators that assumed an all male ministry because of their past influences. So we will study what Paul and others originally wrote concerning qualifications for ministry, but in a way that non-Greek experts like ourselves can understand. Today we are fortunate to have incredible research tools at our disposal to check out the meaning of the original Greek words. Using powerful computer programs we can see how each word was translated in the rest of the Bible, compare each translation, and see what modern Greek scholars say about each word. Today with computers as our tools we can delve deeper, more accurately, and faster, than any other generation in history! What an exciting time to be in! What a fantastic time for us to be searching for truth, zealously prayerfully, always being ready to change if we can prove it by the Holy Scriptures. 2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men (anthroopois), who shall be able to teach others also.” Should be: “And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful ones, who will be able to teach others also.” The word translated “men” is anthroopois , plural of the word anthropos, StrongÂ’s 444 “a human being, whether male or female, generically, to include all human individuals.” ThayerÂ’s Definitions. Paul does not use the Greek word for man “aner” 435, which is totally masculine, but instead he leaves this teaching open to both men and women. Faithful ones, men and women are to be taught and eventually are to teach others. Another common proof text for an all-male ministry is: 1 Timothy 3:1-2 “This is a true saying, If a man (ei tis) desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;” ei tis (i tis); if any StrongÂ’s Greek-Hebrew Dictionary, StrongÂ’s 1536. ei tis- whoever, whatever, ThayerÂ’s Definitions 1536. The original does not say “man” at all but instructs, “If any desire the office of a bishop, (he/she) desires a good work….” Paul knew the Greek language. He would not have used a word that can mean either man or woman if he had intended to limit overseers to males only! If Paul had intended a male ministry he would have used the all male word, “aner” 435 in this text. Paul did not just slip up in this scripture. In all his admonitions concerning the ministry he uses words that include both sexes! Yet translators were bound by their own traditional ideas and translated with male words not found in the original! Just as their hatred of the Sabbath caused the translation of “sabbatismos” 4520, in Hebrews 4:9 to become “rest” instead of the correct translation, “Sabbath rest.” In both cases they knew better. The word “he” is not in the original text above, it is inferred from the verb used in the third person, he/she/it. (I is first person, you is second person, and he/she/it is third person.) This verb form can include both male and female. The original Greek is not limited to the male gender. The translators added maleness to this scripture also. 1 Timothy 3:5 “For if a man (tis) know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?” tis “an enclitic indefinite pronoun; some or any person or object:” StrongÂ’s 5100 It should be, “For if anyone know not how to rule…” Also, “his” and “he” were not in the original text, but indicate third person (he/she/it). 1 Timothy 3:11 “Even so {must their}(not in the original) wives (gunaikas 1135 Women) be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.” Earlier in this entire passage Paul has not specified maleness but has used words that can address both sexes. Now he addresses women specifically, giving requirements for women to be church leaders! As we are talking about church leadership rather than marriage, the New American Standard translation below for this scripture is more accurate. The confusion was created by the word gunaikas, which does not differentiate between women or wives. We notice that PaulÂ’s requirements for women leaders echo male requirements for ministry: Grave/grave, not slanderers/not double tongued, sober/not given to much wine, faithful in all things/not greedy of filthy lucre. New Amer Standard Update, the NAS, RSV, ASV all translate “women” not “wives”: 1 Timothy 3:11 “Women in like manner {must be}grave, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.” American Standard Version The use of “tis” or “any” earlier shows Paul was addressing both male and female church leaders. Gunaikas is a plural form of gune, 1135, 1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow 2) a wife; ThayerÂ’s Definitions. The entire passage in the original Greek is totally without gender bias or prejudice just as Paul teaches in Galatians 3:28. Women were bishops and overseers in the New Testament church. Male requir
ements were added by translators and believed by us because we did not have access to the original Greek or any way of decoding the original Greek. Now computer programs make this readily possible and the bias of the translators is clearly revealed. An apostate church imposed an all-male ministry and Protestants have also accepted this tradition. It was not present in the Church Jesus Christ founded. I Tim.3:11 is referring to women ministers. “Women in like manner” were to have the same qualifications as men, and were to be “faithful in all things,” just as the “faithful ones” of 2 Timothy 2:2. Spiritual Gifts 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another {various} kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (New American Standard) 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 “Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, {various} kinds of tongues.” (NAS) All of the members of the body of Christ, His Church, receive a spiritual gift. Then all members, male and female, must work together using their various gifts to make up a local church. Each must have an attitude of service towards others, and an attitude of love. It seems that some have assumed that women were not given spiritual gifts for they have not allowed women any way to use a spiritual gift such as the gift of healing, teacher of the congregation, or what we might call “minister” today. We must not prevent women from using the spiritual gifts God has given them. All members, both male and female should be encouraged to use their spiritual gifts. Then we would not have over-worked ministers, for each member would be serving through the gift God has given. Our fair and loving God has given women gifts as He sees fit. God will judge men who forbid women from obeying Him! No one will be guiltless before GodÂ’s throne if he or she condones prejudice and mistreatment of women who seek only to serve God as He leads them. We cannot judge the calling of another person! They stand or fall before Jesus Christ, not us! All scriptures relating to spiritual gifts and ministry were written without gender bias, they were written for both men and women.
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I got up this morning early just to watch Joyce Myers,after listening to her my heart feels freed up and I know God came into my heart and put me on the right path through Joyce Myers which I have watched her for years.Since Nov.12 2002 my life has been a holy hell.My husband was killed in a traggic automobile accident.He left his corporation to me which I wasn’t active in the office and at the time of Larry’s death I was in denial for 13 months.I went through the process of it all and now I know God wanted him and set him free from this cruel world and his personal problems he had to fight all his life.In my eyes and many others, he was blessed to do very well with a heart of gold.I have gone through things that no one would believe,this is like a horror movie.Larry’s corporation was stolen from his employees of 9 years.I was so sick it took me until July to go back to work,which I worked for the company but as I said not active in the office.I recieved a call in July 2003 from an employees wife and she told me who and what was going on at the office.By the time I got to work the damage was done,everything was gone.I put every dime into the company to try to save it but it couldn’t be repaired.I was angry and hated these people,I felt like the worse failure wondering what could I have done different but all I did was focus on when my husband would be home.I watched Joyce Myers and she was teaching forgiveness and on Dec.13 2003 I went into my bedroom and picked up the Bible.This is when I said oh my God he isn’t coming back.At this present time I have gone from Riches To Rags,I am having a very hard time to make it but with God in our hearts all is possible.Now I have forgiven these people and wish the very best for them.I have given my problems and worries to God and I know I have been blessed to be able to do this.Joyce Myers reminds me so much of me,she speaks about her temper,things she has gone through I have done the same.My point here is if this lady can turn her life around with God we all can.I thank God daily that we are doing as well as we are and without God where would we be.I wonder at times what have I done that is so bad to lose the love of my life,my best friend and I lost his company.Larry received Jesus Christ 4 months before he left me.Thank the Good Lord Above that I know where this man is and so proud of him.The first thing he told me after saying a silent prayer together,he said Nancy we have to let God lead us,we can’t do this by ourselves which is so true.Everyone alway’s remember the most important person and thing’s can be taken away in a blink of an eye.So get right with God and talk and thank him daily.I would like to thank Joyce Myers,she helped me to get through this with God also.She is a great lady and working very hard for the Lord so pay attention because the day will come for us all.
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I always felt that Joyce Meyers IS a man.
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I said earlier in this thread: manner and demeanor.
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She’s the pastor most Southern Baptists wish they had, even though their version of God won’t allow her in the ministry.
I hope you mean in manner and demeanor. What you mean by “their version of God” is a little troubling. You don’t support the notion of a woman being a pastor, do you? The “their version of God..” comment would lead one to believe that you do.
Also, I don’t see any contradiction in allowing someone like Beth Moore to teach via video or book/study, and then not permitting a woman to be a pastor. We have Sunday School teachers who are women, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to allowing a woman to be the pastor. Women are of great value to the ministry of the local church and the “universal” church. We all have our roles in God’s kingdom, and would be wise to follow His boundaries. I will say I agree with the overall sentiment of your post, however. I assume the “town of 55,000” you’re talking about is my hometown of Bowling Green! I didn’t know you were in Kentucky!
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that would be brennan manning.
(**why don’t i flippin’ preview??**)
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you found the shelf containing thomas merton and brenna manning – why did you look any further??
(great post. glad i found you)
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Good post!!
I agree, I find wayyyy more sound christian books in a Barnes & Nobles, Borders, etc. than the local christian book stores. I was once knows as a “regular” at the christian bookstore but my attendance has been slipping. Oddly, I don’t remember seeing any books by Luther, Calvin, Augustine, Tozer, or any other old school saints that made some major contributions to the church. I guess a christian’s bookstore doesn’t necessarily have to be the Christian Bookstore.
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Hello All…Writing from Iraq…It is good to see others here with the same interests. Blogs are a deployed Reformed Sailor’s best friend.
If anyone ever has the opportunity to visit San Diego, make a point of visiting Evangelical Bible Book Store. It is a family ran store specializing in reformed and theological works. A stark contrast to the pablum right down the road at Family Christian. If there is anything I miss about San Diego, it isn’t so much the beaches and Sea World, as much as Evangelical.
BTW, if anyone would like to correspond, I included my E mail and would enjoy the banter.
In his service, George
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Haha! We’re both the same disdain for these Christian bookstores it would seem. Fortunately, in M’sia it is jnot there yet, but it’s still bad enough. Lots of feel good books on the shelves, trinkets galore – I even bought a stress ball with I love Jesus emblazoned on it. (I needed a stress ball and it was going cheap. Simple!)
I used to think that Christian bookstores are like shops full of candy. I was so new to Christian literature and all things Christian then that I devoured anything I could get my hands on. After a while … well, I just realised that they were what they were – self help books with Christian messages. It’s true, when you’re a new Christian you find it really hard to discern what is good or bad. You usually go for the ‘recommended’ items, or the promo items.
Thankfully, we still have quality bookstores – Evangel, Scripture Union – that sell the meaty stuff.
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Ditto on the chart books.
Alister McGrath’s College Intro to Theology is good. I know many gripe about his method, but Grudem’s systematic theology is HIGHLY readable.
Go to a seminary Bookstore and ask for some basic Intro books.
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P.S. Zondervan also puts out a series of Chart books on theology and church history. A lot of info in an easily-accessible format. Worth a look.
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Book *about* theology – “The Moody Handbook of Theology” by Paul Enns. (I checked, CBD and Amazon still stock it.) It’s a bit dated (it doesn’t cover the New Perspective on Paul or other recent flareups), and it does tend to favor dispensationalism in the comparison categories, but overall it’s fair, comprehensive, and easily accessable reading.
Books *on* theology – I’ll just add a few names to iMonk’s list..
Marva Dawn – lots of good books on church & worship
Graeme Goldsworthy – especially his book *Preaching the Whole Bible as Christian Scripture*, which should be required reading for any Christian, preacher or not. Simply *the* best book on reading and understanding the Bible I’ve ever come across. Get it. NOW.
Spurgeon – his sermons are good reading, and widely available online
Luther – Freedom of the Christian (there’s also a good modern parallel by Gene Vieth, *Spirituality of the Cross*)
Calvin – Institutes (denser reading, but worth seeing what he really says – and HOW he says it – as compared to his namesakes)
Pascal – Pensees (see also Kreeft’s commentary on the Pensees, *Christianity for Modern Pagans*. Take what Kreeft says about Protestants with a grain of salt, otherwise *very* insightful)
You’re not likely (sad to say) to find many of these in stock at your local Happy Baptist Jesus Junk Store. Your best best is Borders (if there’s one nearby) or online.
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Annie…I misread your meaning on “so inspired.” My fault. Sorry.
Scripture says that a church is to ordain elders who are gifted as teachers. That’s the solution. Not gifted at church growth. But gifted in preaching and teaching. Elders who can teach. That’s what is needed. Not curriculum. Teachers.
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Mr. Monk – if you are so inspired, would you write more on teachers in the local church? I agree with your opinion of packaged teaching . . . however I have not seen much good teaching in the local church either. That may just be the churches I have been at. Is this a lack of gifting or of development and training? Or does it matter? Is local teaching important enough to have mediocre teaching over say, Beth moore?
when I was leading motherwise at our church, I thought the videos were dull and cheesy so I turned them off and taught 2/3 of it myself. It was not exactly encouraged even though the women in my group all stated they preferred it in their “class reviews”.
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Amy…I will post something on this, but its a big subject and I don’t want to divert the thread
Monergism.com has some “book lists” at the book store. Like “If you can’t go to seminary.” If you are looking for safely reformed stuff, that is a good place to go.
Discerning Reader has a Basic Training section.
Amazon has lots of reader book lists.
I have some names for you
Packer
McGrath
Sproul
Horton
Piper
Ware
Wright (Smaller books)
Peterson
Stott
Barclay
Witherington III
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“A good book *about* theology (like what all the different theological camps are and what they believe), or a book with *good theology* (like what’s a good way to read the bible, understand the church, etc)?”
As my father says….when asked if he wants cream or sugar…both and thank you kindly.
I will check out Packer’s Knowing God.
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Meyer’s television programs, etc are very popular with evangelicals across the board. We have 150 employees here at OBI, and I’d wager they buy more General Joyce stuff than any other media ministry.
I never assumed that Meyer was in Lifeway, or that she’d been dropped for being a woman. Actually, I find Lifeway to be a hive of women preachers 🙂
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I wasn’t aware SBs liked Joyce Meyer all that much. I don’t know any that care for her.
And I thought LifeWay stopped carrying her books a while back — because of the nameitclaimit stuff, not because she’s a woman preacher.
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IMonk,
I agree it is probably a strange comment 🙂
I was actually not trying to say any of the things you mentioned. I was certainly not intending to imply that we only need English Bibles. Original language, cultural context, and historical perspective are essential to a proper reading of Scripture. So I am very thankful to have scholars who teach and write in these areas to help lay people (like me) study and understand the Bible. I know that not many people take the time and effort to put in the effort to study the Bible this way and I know it is not an easy process to study this way.
I suppose when I read that on the cover of those commentaries (which I have used and enjoyed) it brings to mind the idea of needing to make the Bible “culturally relevant”. I think there’s a large portion of people who think that because of the linguistic, historical, and cultural barriers between us and the Bible that there is very little there for our culture unless we “bring it up to speed”. It just struck me that this statement is playing to people with that mindset. I do think that once you invest the time to study Scripture in context and the Holy Spirit opens your mind to it, the principles (not neccessarily the application) transcend culture, time, and ethnicity.
Didn’t mean to slam commentaries in general, I probably read the comment differently than most would.
Brian C.
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It never included or excluded. It left it up to the churches instead of instructing local congregations on how they had to interpret the New Testament to be SBC.
The hoot is the hypocrisy of having 2/3rds of your church taught by Beth Moore using products produced by Lifeway.
https://internetmonk.com/archives/2004/07/000083.html
I hear no sucking sound 🙂
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Wait, on second thought, I back out of this arg! I will not be sucked in 🙂
Just ignore me Michael. This distracts from your post
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it’s just now a hoot? When did the BFM include women pastors?
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I just mean that her manner (authoritative, “stepping on your toes”) and content (“life principle,” practical how tos) are what conservative Southern Baptists want.
I’m pretty amused that people like Beth Moore, Anne Graham Lotz and General Joyce are major Bible teachers among Southern Baptists, all the while the men at the top of the pyramid are changing the BFM to exclude women “pastors.” It’s a hoot.
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“She’s the pastor most Southern Baptists wish they had, even though their version of God won’t allow her in the ministry.”
Great post, Michael.
You always have to do this to me, though – I’m sitting their nodding my head in agreement and you deliver a cheerful punch to the kidneys. This is a ridiculous statement – being an SB myself I’ve never met anyone who wanted Joyce Meyers as their pastor, and we, like many many denominations and non-denominationals, would welcome a qualified woman into many areas of leadership in our ministries, just not into the senior pastorship. We think we have good biblical reason for that, although it’s cool with me if you disagree. I would never tell you you serve a different “version” of God, though (are you up to “beta” yet 🙂 – heh) if you and I agree on the essentials of the faith, which I’m certain we do.
Sorry for the rant. You do this to me O Ranting Provacative One . . . not fair!
Aside from my snarking nitpick, great post.
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John H, very helpful illustration, I will try and remember it.
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Dick Lucas (an Anglican Evangelical minister for whom I have almost unbounded admiration) talks about the need to “travel to Corinth” when interpreting the Bible.
He draws a triangle with the biblical text (in this case 1 Corinthians) at the top, London at the bottom left corner and Corinth at the bottom right corner.
The point he then makes is that you cannot simply go from the text to London. First you have to go from the text to Corinth – to find out what Paul was saying to *Corinth* – and only then can you go from Corinth to London, applying in our own time and place what Paul said to the 1st Century Corinthians.
I’ve found that a very helpful illustration – worth sketching it out on a piece of paper to grasp what Lucas is saying.
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Brian…that seems like a strange comment.
How many people understand the language of the NT or the OT?
How many understand the cultural context of first century Palestine?
How many can sort through the issues in Leviticus without assistance in understanding what is going on in a distant culture?
How many understand enough Biblical history or ancient literary genres to get an accurate meaning of the text?
Are you saying that we just need our English Bibles to understand all that’s written there?
??
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Sorry for the multiple posts but I have always found the subtitle on the NIV Commentary Series (some of which are very good, btw) to be an amusing example of silly, almost shameless marketing. It is “From Biblical Text…to Contemporary Life”.
Is it really all that great a leap between the two?
Brian C
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I would second Packer’s “Knowing God” as a great place to start reading. I know I had to read each chapter twice when I first read it, but it was worth it.
I have also found that a good rule to follow is: If the author of a book “guarantees” (on the cover or inside cover) that reading the book will produce some result (e.g., change your life, move you to the next level); leave it on the shelf.
Brian C
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You’re nails on this one, Monk. The modern Christian bookstore could be run by Friar Tetzel without blushing.
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It is reassuring to know that I am not the only one who has sworn off christian book stores.
You are right in your observation that Lifeway’s overriding concern is profit, I mean really, who are we kidding? Besides, no kidding, we shouldn’t be laughing should we?
At least Barnes&Noble are legitimately capatilistic and b&n doesn’t give a rip if they shipwreck anyones faith.
But the SBC should have a hard look at the motives behind their Lifeways/way of life. And are they not concerned about what their Baptist preachers are consuming and later regurgitating to their congregations? 40 days of purpose, anyone? Forget the revenue and market niche and feed us meat. Is it any wonder that the latest serious surveys suggest a shallowness in most teens faith?
by the way, i spoke with a Lifeway employee recently who is reading what they do not sale, JE’s “The end for which God created the World.”
I suppose, in answer to Amy W’s request, J.I. Packer’s Knowing God. A great start into deeper waters. Read slowly, you’ll be better for it. But, more than anything, read your Bible. Read your whole Bible at least once a year. It is possible to read it several times a year. We talk so much about all these human authors (i read them too!) but most of all, speaking of these others should be the last thing, tacked onto the end of your Bible reading. Who cares if you know how different Jonathan Edwards is from Joel Olsteen when you don’t know how different Paul is from,say, Steve Brown?
Grace and Peace.
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Amy –
What are you looking for? A good book *about* theology (like what all the different theological camps are and what they believe), or a book with *good theology* (like what’s a good way to read the bible, understand the church, etc)?
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The “big city” (~300Kpeople) closest to me, has, as far as I know, _one_ explicitly Christian bookstore. In reality it’s more of a “Christian stuff” store. 80 to 90% of it is trinkets, wind chimes, Precious Moments crap, book ends and crafty junk. It’s depressing.
A mile down the way is Borders, with about 4 times the shelf space devoted to Christian books. With a little discrenment you can filter out the heretical stuff and the evangelical dreck and come home with some good stuff. And they got me Ellul’s _Anarchy and Christianity_ without blinking an eye (try that in your average Christian bookstore).
>And, how can someone relatively new to reading, for lack of a better work, religious books tell the difference between solid history/theology/teaching and utter dreck?
If it’s lasted more than a hundred years, it’s probably worth reading.
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It’s unfortunately all about the money. I worked in a Christian bookstore in the late 60’s and early ’70’s when Christian bookstores sold Christian books. We would put books by Francis Schaeffer on the “Wow – look at what just came out!” shelf. 50% of our books were commentaries and theologies. And the store did very well.
The bottom line is about sales and cash, and not about spiritual health. But then there is that “people with itching ears factor too.”
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Ok guys (and girls) at BHT, Why don’t you all put together a possible reading list to those of us who go into these stores and go into overload. I want to read GOOD theology but I have a hard time figuring out what that is unless it has Lewis or Bonhoffer on the cover. Who should we be reading in order to get a open view of theology. Many days I don’t even understand what you all are saying over at BHT and I have to go to my dictionary, thesarus, concordance, Bible to figure it out but at least it is not the 5th grade drivel that is currently coming from the pulpit at my local SBC. Help us who want to learn more!!!
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“What I strongly suspect is that the evangelical book-buyer isn’t really viewed as a reader so much as a labratory chimp whose behavior can be safely predicted when put in the presence of certain words, colors, sounds and sentences.”
Goodness Michael, tell us how you really feel! LOL. Great post.
Brad
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We’ve begun an Evangelical Publishing Juggernaut Anathema List over at addisonrd.com of words and phrases that should be striken from the cover print template of current works. Feel free to add your own!
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When A.W. Tozer wrote “The Knowledge of the Holy” he included a mind blowing statement in the preface of all places. He notes the following:
“Were Christians today reading such works as those of Augustine or Anselm, a book like this would have no reason for being.”
So long as the Evangelical community continues to indulge themselves in the regurgitated works of Max Lucado, or purchase every “Purpose Driven Prayer of Jabez Leading To Your Best Life Now So You Won’t Be Left Behind”; God’s true character and atrributes will continue being neglected.
I am convinced these shortcomings are not one of whether one has the intellectual ability to absorb the material found in Augustine, rather one of laziness. How do I know? Because I am guilty of it too. Nothing against my wife, but I watch her tear through a novel and a half of fiction while I struggle through forty pages of heavy theological substance. What would happen if our microwave society turned off the TV one night a week and devoted an evening to “real” reading?
Digging deeper, could it also be pride? Is it that we like being handed all this positive rhetoric about the wonderful love of God? A God who only really wants what translates to a kind of insincere devotion so in return He can shower us with financial blessing or success in your career. Reformed Theology isn’t perfect in every way, but when you start with the Depravity of Man and the Sovereignty of God, you start to see things a lot nearer to how they really are. Until we choose a correct theological starting point, the results will forever be amiss.
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The answer to bad theology is good theology. And that is where personal responsibility comes in.
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>I continue to be amazed at how Christian
>publishers are getting multiple works out of
>their best-selling writers.
I’m not — it’s called “milking the cash cow”, just like those Godless Secular Publishers (TM) with their insistence on never-ending series of ever-thicker bestsellers.
Now if you really want to talk about NeverEnding Series, remember Left Behind? What is it up to now, 10-12 volumes in the main story arc, plus a new “The Antichrist’s Baby Pictures” prequel trilogy? (I’m not even mentioning the parallel juvenile spinoff series Left Behind: The Kids. What’s next — Left Behind for Pets?) I haven’t seen a background or premise so obsessively chronicled since Slave Girls of Gor!
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Finally! Someone else in the Christian world “gets it!” My friends and I avoid bookstores that sell “Christian” books like some would aviod the plauge. I am under the impression, as it seems you are, that there are a lot of people selling self-help books rather than books that point back to the greatness and sovereigntyof God.
Thank you for taking the time to share your opinions with us, maybe someday, somehow, Christian book stores will be full of Bibles, gospel centered books and Christ-exhaulting music-until then…
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It’s been a long time since I have been in a Christian bookstore except to buy advent candles or browse the icons (obviously, those are Catholic bookstores, does that count?)
I like most bookstores associated with Episcopal Churches I have been to–lots of L’Engle and not as new agey as one might think.
When I used to live further south and occassionally went to Christian bookstores, I had a really hard time finding anything worthwhile. I once bought a Colson book to take to China thinking I could share it with a Chinese seminary student I knew when I finished. The book was okay, I guess, but it was completely culture-bound and would have made no sense to my friend. I didn’t give him the book.
I was once asked to sign a petition at the register at a Christian bookstore (against the movie the Last Temptation of Christ). I hadn’t seen the movie, so I didn’t see how I could sign–maybe I should have gone out to see it and then come back and sign the petition?
I also note that I have never been asked to sign a petition in, say, a Discovery store. You know, Star Wars is not scientifically accurate, maybe it should be banned? Or Victoria’s Secret could have customers sign petitions against movies that don’t show enough skin? Maybe I’d sign that one…;)
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I can name one place where you’d be pretty safe from Joyce Meyer: the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod! (In most congregations in the midwest, anyway).
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This is delicious. You are my new best buddy in Christ. I don’t have much traffic, but I blogged about your post this morning.
Great stuff!
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I’ve been keeping my tabs on both LifeWay and Family Christian for a while now, checking in on each every two months or so. Over the past few years I’ve noticed a marked improvement on their offerings. Maybe it’s different here in Jax, being so close to First Baptist, but I get the feeling that it’s pretty standard distribution.
First off, LifeWay is definitely the lesser of the two evils. Family Christian carries a much larger selection Meyers and Meyers-esque literature. Maybe it’s because Baptists are as into non-denom/charismatic/health-wealth stuff as non-denoms are. But, sure most of SB offerings are nothing to brag about.
I have noticed both a growth in the “Christian Living” section and the “Theology” section as well as their commentary offerings. I have watched as their Piper collection has grown from nothing to “Desiring God” to “Future Grace” to a regular release of his literature. They carry many of Lewis’ titles. Even the fictional ones. They carry Spurgeon, Andrew Murray, Thomas Kemper, and if I was there right now I could point you to many more quality offerings – things you might find on Discerning Reader (Brennan Manning also comes to mind).
They offer a full selection of Wright’s For Everyone series and Calvin’s commentaries.
They offer the ESV in its many forms.
I have picked up and/or seen Ian Murray’s “Redemption: Accomplished and Applied,” John Stott’s “The Cross of Christ,” Wayne Grudem’s “Systematic Theology,” J. I. Packer’s “Knowing God”, and Francis Schaeffer’s “How Should We Then Live?”
My point is that while they still push the evangeli-crap, they have come a long way in my book and I imagine they’ll get consistently better. Maybe eventually you’ll see some of those titles on their best seller rack, and then things might really start to turn around.
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I only have two comments:
Amen!
And, how can someone relatively new to reading, for lack of a better work, religious books tell the difference between solid history/theology/teaching and utter dreck? I’ve only been a Christian for a few years, and have already amassed a list a mile long of books well-meaning friends gave me that I thought were nonsense. My two concerns are: I work 60 hours a week; how can I tell quickly whether a book is worth my time reading it before I’ve invested several evenings and $20 into it? and how do I know that the things I thought were reasonably theologically sound actually were? (I’m not worried about literary style or general readability; I’m pretty confident in my ability to tell quality writing from bad, but both good and terrible ideas can be expressed eloquently)
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“Meyer is theologically light years ahead of Joel Osteen”
I’ve never read Joel Osteen, but if that’s true then he must be truly awful.
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Sorry for double-post – forgot to add that, the flip-side of the coin is that “religion” sections in mainstream bookshops completely suxx0r. Normally two or three shelves consisting of a shelf of Bibles, a couple of Prayer Books, a handful of CS Lewis books, and then a decidedly odd, but small, selection of other Christian (and “Christian”) books.
Take out the confirmation gift-edition Bibles, and the Dalai Lama normally beats twenty centuries of Christian literature hands-down, in terms of shelf-space.
And if I see one more copy of “Conversations with God” by Neale Donald Walsch filed under “Christian”, I’ll scream.
I’d guess that the smaller Christian market in the UK is responsible both for the better quality of Christian bookshop (since they really do have to be run for love rather than just to rake in cash), and the poorer quality of Christian sections in mainstream bookshops (since there’s no money in it, and shop managers don’t have any feel for what Christians are really after).
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Wow. I’m pleased to report that things aren’t *quite* as bad as that here in the UK, yet (though there has been a discernible shift from “real books” to assorted gifts, even in the eleven years I’ve been frequenting Christian bookshops).
Wesley Owen is probably the biggest Christian chain here in the UK, and, while there is a fair amount of WWJD trinkets, and rank upon serried rank of Left Behind books and spin-offs, you can still pick up lots of good books – commentaries (from “Wright for Everyone” through “Bible Speaks Today”, right up to scholarly commentaries), doctrine (the likes of JI Packer and John Stott clearly still sell, plus systematic theologies like Wayne Grudem’s), and lots of Bibles (some of which, if you look *really* hard, actually come with just the biblical text, without any notes specially targeted at helping 30-something fathers of two live victorious lives of faith in the Spirit).
And my local Christian bookshop – called, originally, “The Christian Bookshop”, and which has two branches, one a mile from home, one 200 yards from my office; how cool is that? – is still basically a *bookshop*, even if a bit Reformed for my current tastes (though I did pick up one of the “Paul for Everyone” books there yesterday, and a copy of the Church of England’s new “breviary” last week).
But Amazon.co.uk still does it for me – especially with the weak dollar, which makes US-published Lutheran books (like there’s any *other* kind of Lutheran book, in English) ludicrously cheap.
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I do have to admit that sometimes when I need someting to perk me up, I go online and watch an episode of “This Is Your Day!” Usually the ones where Hinn says “Touch!” and the crowds topple over are the ones that make me giggle like a sore foot.
As for Joyce Meyers and the rest of the crew’s Word Faith/Prosperity Gospel movement… what can I say? Go ask your daughter to give you a makeover. I’m sure you can be just as impressive in a dress as your “General” can. ^_^
Okay, okay, I’m done.
Seriously, it was a good read, something I have also noticed in bookstores. Most of my books also come from either Amazon and B&N, with the exception of one. I always stared at her face while there and gave her a wink as I pulled a book next to her but not of her. I’m sure she frowned at me when I wasn’t looking at her booking.
Keep up the writing! A good overview indeed.
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