I brought something I want to share with you. Do you have a few minutes? I think you’ll find it interesting. It’s my “Southern Baptists and Alcohol” scrapbook. It tells the story of what I grew up hearing and believing about alcohol, Christians and the Bible. It’s the story of getting my eyes opened and all my certainties wrecked. In other words, it’s the story of one, big, happy lie. Maybe more than one, actually.
I just like to flip through these memories from time to time. Like any scrapbook, things are a bit out of order, so let’s open to a page and see what we find.
Ahh. “The Deacon In The Dugout.” A very good place to start.
I was at my first youth ministry job in a suburban church in my hometown. I’d been visiting a Christian bookstore that happened to be across the road from, among other things, a liquor store called “The Dugout.” So there I was, getting into my car, when I noticed a familiar car parked at “The Dugout.” Sure enough, out of the store, and into the car came one of the deacons from my church, carrying the famous brown paper sack. That sound you hear is my entire worldview cracking up.
Now, you have to realize that it had never entered my mind that any Southern Baptist drank alcohol. That just wasn’t the way that I was taught. It wasn’t a thought that was discussable. It was nonsense. Alcohol was simply, totally, always wrong, and no Christian, or good person of any kind, used it. Not even at the Lord’s Supper.
Yet, here was a deacon at my church, A man I saw every Sunday, a man who was one of those to whom I was responsible, apparently buying alcohol “as a beverage” as we used to say. I didn’t spend much time talking myself through the unlikely possibility that he was a twin, or was getting cooking wine or was purchasing some for the thugs holding his wife and kids at gunpoint. It was what it appeared to be: a Southern Baptist deacon, who was a drinker.
My eyes had been forced open, and would be opened even more in the future. I was to discover that, contrary to what I experienced in my family and heard in my church growing up, there were a lot of drinkers in Southern Baptist churches, particularly among certain groups, and usually well out of sight. Drinkers, liars and deceivers; all right under my nose.
Turn over a few pages. Yes….there they are. The staff at the church I served early in my preparation years. A great group of servants and some wonderful Christians. And they all drank. Every last one of them.
The pastor. His wife. The associates. Their wives. The secretaries. Their spouses. The musicians. Especially the musicians. All of them. When we had staff get togethers, the alcohol would flow, and I would watch in stunned amazement as people would get…uh….happier. I never saw anyone drunk, but I saw a number of people….happy. Seeing Southern Baptist church staff members happy is odd enough, but happy on booze? Wow.
The pastor was from the south. His family was big in the denomination. The associates were from the south, too. Big FBC type churches with major givers and well-known pulpits. These folks drank and they didn’t just start last week. They had apparently been drinking for a long time. It actually seemed they had been drinking all through their years of preparation and ministry. It wasn’t even a big deal. They knew lots of other drinkers, too. It was like a secret society.
Yes, they were aware that most Baptists didn’t drink, but they were aware that lots of Baptists did drink, even if they said they didn’t. Especially in the circles of the upper classes, church staff and educators. Again, my eyes were opened, and have been more opened since. There are lots of drinkers in Southern Baptist churches, pulpits and schools. My childhood church might not have known, but the truth was stunning. Beer and wine everywhere!
Which raises the question: Why do so many Baptists act like that’s not the case? What’s the stake in this level of dishonesty? Where is the impetus to be so duplicious about this?
Go over another page. There’s my first church after seminary. County seat, FBC, very historic and thoroughly Southern Baptist. The pastor previous to the man who was there when I served was quite the anti-alcohol crusader. In fact, the church played a leading role in local “wet-dry” elections. (That’s a Kentucky law that allows a county to allow liquor sales or not, or to regulate the sale to particular times. In much of the commonwealth, you have to drive more than an hour to find a “wet” county, so these elections are a big deal.)
I never saw as much excitement in any church as I did in that church when the “drys” won another election. You never saw anything like it revival services. People were up and cheering. It was like they had won a war.
Which was strange, because I knew lots of drinkers in that church. Drinking was pretty common among the youth, of course, and they were getting it, frequently, from their own homes. The parents had a fridge full of beer. Big brother or Uncle Bob was making a weekly run to a wet city to fill up the truck. Beer on the houseboats. Wine for the dinner party. Our church had its share of non-locals and other denominational types, and many of them were drinkers and saw no reason not to be. It turned out that among the doctors, lawyers and business leaders in that church, there were many completely guiltless drinkers.
Meanwhile, the church acted like alcohol hadn’t touched the lips of a member in a century. We weren’t like those Lutherans, Catholics and Episcopalians. Nosiree Bob. Good grief. What is going on here?
By this time, my eyes were more than open. I was stunned into shocked awareness. I had concluded that I had been lied to, and that while there was more open drinking among members of other churches, our Southern Baptist folks were far from being left out in the cold without some booze to warm them up. Alcohol was everywhere, if- if- you were prepared to be honest about it. If you wanted to continue the rap about teetotalism, the bottles would go out to the garage for a while. Then, when you leave, the party will start again.
So what in the world was going on? Why did our churches and seminaries have covenants and rules that said drinking was wrong, and that drinkers were under the threat of church/institutional discipline? Why did we bind the conscience on the issue of teetotalism, without a verse of scripture that required it? Why was alcohol use of any kind,- not just abuse, but moderate, responsible use- held up as a sign of bad character? Why was it such a big deal among leaders? When so many of them drank?
Why were we all involved in this lie?
I came to understand a bit more of the dynamics of the churches I had been a part of as they choose leaders. Divorce and drinking were always the two big issues with leadership. No one cared about anything else. The big questions were, “Has he ever been divorced?” and “Does he drink?” Now I realize that the second could not be taken for granted at all, even among those who answered correctly. There was enough duplicity on the issue of drinking to make fools of everyone. So it became the policy that we acted like everyone was dry as the Dust Bowl, nodding at the official position of the church, amening the crusaders, while the truth simply sat there, on ice.
It was like a bunch of GM execs who had Toyotas at home in the garage. It was like owners of Kentucky Fried Chicken eating their meals at Chick-fil-A. It was like nodding when the evangelist preached on the evils of drink while you had a bottle of wine and a six-pack in the basement fridge. It was exactly like that.
If you go back to the very beginning, you’ll see some pages from my very early years. I can remember my parents talking about how they couldn’t find a church in Wisconsin that was against drinking, so they wound up joining a tiny little house church started by Baptists from the south. Eventually, they moved back to Kentucky, and dad often said that if he hadn’t moved, I would never have turned out as a Baptist preacher. That’s probably true. I’d have been doomed to a life of Lutheran picnics or something.
I also wouldn’t have been told that all those other denominations, no matter what other errors they believed, were chock full of drinkers on their way to hell. Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans, Epicopalians, Presbyterians….drinkers all. My pastor preached against drinking in other churches with ferocity. There was no other name for his approach. It mattered deeply to him, so much that alcohol dominated many messages. What separated Southern Baptists from other Christians was teetotalism. We said the church covenant’s promise “to abstain from the sale and use of alcohol as a beverage” with emphasis. God was serious about this booze issue, and he was watching.
How many times were the evils of drinking portrayed before me as a young person in church? Thousands I am sure. Moderate, social drinkers were the worst sort of compromisers, selling out their “witness” for acceptance from the drinking crowd. And, of course, there was the Bible. Over and over, I heard the Bible’s passages against drunkenness emphasized and repeated. When I discovered that not only did the Bible have much positive material about wine as a gift, and that most of the Bible’s content of alcohol was in a positive or neutral voice, I was totally torn up. How could this be? It had been so clear! So obvious…and so wrong.
Once I was discovered eating a pizza in a restaurant that served beer. I knew, from many sermons, that real Christians never entered a place that served alcohol. We could eat racist pizza, mafia pizza and pizza prepared by drug addicted wife abusers. But if the Methodists were selling beer in there, it was the door to hell. And there I was, exposed by a deacon’s wife. I got off easy, since she had no business in there either.
I was taught that the Bible’s word for wine was not the word for fermented alcohol. I was taught that Jesus made Welch’s. I was taught that no one in the Bible drank unless it was a sin. I was taught that the essence of my witness was to be a teetotaler and to promote it at every opportunity. Nothing was as important in my witness in my western Kentucky community as abstaining from alcohol. This kind of thinking is still running around in my head, and I doubt it will ever come out. I hate it, by the way. It’s a mind virus. It has nothing to do with Jesus and it makes me mad. The lie really sucks.
Such was the effect on me that I was flat out terrified at my first encounters with alcohol. When I was offered it in the eighth grade there was no danger of me participating. I skipped every school party, function and prom because of alcohol. I had nothing to do with friends who drank. If I found out a friend was a drinker, our relationship changed. I had my priorities straight: Evangelism, teetotalism and no sex. This was before Christian bookstores were around to help you live the Christian life by buying cds and t-shirts.
My best buddy for years was a Catholic. There was beer in the house, and I knew it. It scared me. These good folks must have known what was going on with me, because I never saw it. But another friend had an alcoholic father, and I stayed far away from their house. I tried, I really tried, to live out what I was told about this. Being a good Christian with boozy friends was a tightrope.
Then I began to make friends in other churches. My friend Tom was an Episcopalian. They had alcohol in the house. Wine, which they pretended was classy. The deceivers. My friend Mack was a Methodist. His dad drank a beer after mowing. They had booze at his wedding reception. Mack knew I was alcohol phobic, and at my bachelor party he tricked me into drinking tea that he said was booze. Everyone laughed. He’ll be punished in the afterlife for his sins. Other friends were Methodists, Catholics, Lutherans and other denominations. They drank. My charismatic Catholic friends sang praise choruses, spoke in tongues and drank beer. There were Christians who drank. Everywhere. I couldn’t deny it. By the time I was starting college, I had begun to realize something wasn’t right about what I had been told.
From the deacon in the dugout to complete disillsuionment. The rest, as they say, is the history of ruined reality. I’m damaged goods. I was lied to, and I am tired of being lied to.
I guess we can close the book. There really isn’t much more that’s interesting. I was snuckered. The Bible didn’t say what I was told it said. There are millions of Christians who drink. Jesus made real wine. It’s what you are supposed to drink at communion. I was misled and there isn’t any other word for it. It is just one, big lie.
And now, we’re hearing it all again. I’ve heard lots of articulate people try to build a new case for teetotalism, and while I respect what they are saying, the Bible is too clear. They can make a very good practical argument, but they can’t get past Colossians 2:16-23. You can’t bind the conscience in these matters. It’s a fools errand, and life is too short to listen to it.
The Southern Baptist Convention cannot ethically, Biblically require its members or employees or seminary students to vote Republican, be pro-life, withdraw from public schools, believe young earth creationism or abstain from the use of alcohol as a beverage. They can urge these things as reasonable conclusions to the question of “How should a Christian live?” They can speculate on what Jesus would do. They can preach, teach and argue the point from scripture.
But they cannot ethically require the members of their churches to covenant to be teetotalers. They cannot ethically ask students to pledge to never have a glass of wine with dinner. They simply cannot require their employees or members to say that God wills total abstinence. They can’t say it. If they do, they are saying more than God says, and the conscience can only be bound by the Word of God. I don’t care who drinks and who doesn’t. I don’t want anyone to abuse alcohol. I want to be against all kinds of abuse of the body or anything God has made. But I cannot, and will not, and simply do not support this business of forcing people to adopt an explicit statement on teetotalism as a tenet of Christian ministry or community.
A pig dressed in a suit is still a pig. A lie called “a good witness” is still a lie. The Bible says what it says, and what anyone else says is on a different level entirely. Bind our conscience on loving one another. Bind our conscience on avoiding evil and addiction. Bind our conscience to be against every sin in scripture. But you cannot bind the conscience of Southern Baptists to teetotalism and say it’s God’s will and God’s word.
(Commenters: I’d love to hear your stories regarding Southern Baptists (and other sworn teetotalers) and the reality of alcohol use.)
The Internet Monk Archives 
It’s really kind of funny. One of those contradictory stereotypes of Southerners. Good Southern Baptists don’t drink. But almost all of America’s hard alcohol is made in the South, and most famous Southerners were famous drinkers.
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(I just had to be the 100th comment.)
Some good & interesting thoughts.
My 2c – moderation is a good principle in many areas of life.
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Oh yes, and also, once at the church my parents attend and I used to, the pastor said, direct quote, “and on that same night the Lord took the grape juice, saying…”
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Thank you for this enlightening and clearly written post, even though I know you wrote it a long time ago. Your experience was exactly like mine, except it was my Catholic boyfriend (now fiance) who made me rethink. Even though I now believe the truth about drinking and what the Bible says, I still can’t shake the initial gut reaction of terror, sin, and shame when I see him drink. What things we do to our children in the name of holy living.
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Re: John 2
I think a lot of us are misreading it. The verb in 2:8 “Now draw some out…” usually has reference to drawing water out of a well. It shows up next in John 4 to describe what the Samaritan woman was doing. It looks to me like Jesus sets aside 120-180 gallons of water, and then turned the well water into wine for the duration of the party. What an outstanding way to fix a wine shortage!
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My husband and I became sinners saved by His loving grace as adults. And then, my husband became a Southern Baptist pastor. I was raised very relisously in an Episcapalian home, infant baptized and confirmed as a teen….when I got saved, and then followed with a baptism I understood ….our pastors wife discipled me. Under her well intended teaching I learned not to wear makeup, dance, drink booze, play cards, never teach men…even male teens, be submissive and don’t play the lottery. If I went to a function where alcohol was served drink it from a can because in a class people might think it’s hard liquor. and I obeyed. After many years of service and legalizim and attacks from the enemy and BURNOUT and attacks from brothers and sisters in HIM….we quit. and we stayed away from God’s kids for 10 years. Now, we are back. But, we are back as new creatures in Him. I told my husband, that I am who He made me to be…and if people don’t like that then that is thier problem not mine. Also, after a careful study…I don’t see where I can’t drink alcohol, or dance like David, and worship can be fun, and doesn’t have to be somber and leagalisitc, and I my husband and I can be partners that submissive doesn’t mean I’m nothing and he is everything…getting burned out and screwed over by other christians may have been the best thing that happened to us! is that what they meant by consider it all joy when you encounter various trials???? VBG????
CHEERS>>>
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I don’t know if this is the Charles Hodge quote that was requested earlier, but it is in his commentary on Romans (if you want to track it down) and it goes like this:
It is often necessary to assert our Christian liberty at the expense of incurring censure, and offending even good men, in order that right principles of duty may be preserved. Our Savior consented to be regarded as a Sabbath breaker and, and even a “wine bibber and a friend of publicans and sinnersâ€; but wisdom was justified by her children.
I too recommend everyone read “Drinking with Calvin and Luther,” by Jim West. Google and you shall find it.
Michael: I love your blog. My SBC mother (who proudly puts tracts in six packs at the Winn Dixie) can’t believe that she gave birth to a son who grew up to be a Presbyterian pastor who moderately consumes wine and beer. You should have heard her go off on me the first time she saw me wearing a Guinness shirt…just to show you how muddled her thinking is, she tried to tell me that pastors have higher ethical standards than other Christians. When she couldn’t prove that nonsense from Scripture, she sulked.
My first pastorate was in a church that didn’t use wine in communion because the janitor was a former alcoholic. Based on the principle of not binding my conscience, the session (that’s “elders” to you non-Presbyies) agreed that I could have wine in my goblet. After two years of patient waiting, the session agreed that we could offer wine and grape juice in communion. I still hate that idea because it sounds like the sacraments are a matter of choice, but again, I wouldn’t presume to bind the consciences of those who were against wine. Still, it makes it hard for me to justify my criticism of the “Jesus People” who used pizza and Coke for their observance of the Lord’s Supper.
Anyway, being raised a missionary kid in an interdenominational mission organization, I grew up with Nazarenes, Holiness, Wesleyans, SBs–you name it. And of course, drinking was verboten. When I finally convinced my session to allow the use of wine in communion, I wrote an article for the church newsletter explaining the change, and giving plenty of exegetical arguments for the moderate consumption of beverage alcohol.
In response, my mother sent me a videotape of a Charles Stanley sermon (part 3 of a 5 part message, I believe) in which Stanley categorically denounces alcohol. The funny (ironic and amusing funny) thing was that he gave how many Scriptures in support of his prohibition? None. Granted, this was a multi-part message, and maybe he quoted some Scripture on another tape, but as a pastor myself, if I am giving a multi-part message, I never assume that my hearers were there for the whole thing. If I am making a point that requires a review, I do it. Stanley didn’t. That is poor preaching.
I am preaching on the subject of the weaker brother in two weeks, and I expect that some will be offended when I say that moderate consumption of beverage alcohol is clearly taught in Scripture….
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I was raised in a fellowship very similar to the SBC (though neither likes to admit the similarities). I’ll be honest…I never knew by those SBC people I knew that Baptists didn’t drink. I suppose not being Baptist, they didn’t feel a need to hide it from me…and I’m a minister myself. I, too, was taught that the Bible was very clear that all alcohol was sinful, except in cases of a doctor’s advice (think Paul’s advice to Timothy…though Paul was no Dr.). As a member of Kiwanis for a while, my impressions that Baptists must not be against drinking was only reinforced as they talked of going to a Presbyterian’s winery, talked about parties over the weekend, and remeniced about the margarita blender one of their elderly fathers had rigged to run off the battery of his 70s Ford truck so they could party down at the river.
I’m not picking on the Baptists, I’ve many a good Baptist friend, and in our fellowship we’ve got the same hypocrisy and oddball teachings.
The final eye-opener for me was Scripture itself. This verse, above all, simply blew all the old arguments out of the water and shattered their weight in my thinking:
Deut 14:22-26
22 “You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year.
23 “And you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the first-born of your herd and your flock, in order that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.
24 “And if the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you,
25 then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses.
26 “AND YOUI MAY SPEND THE MONEY FOR WHATEVER YOUR HEART DESIRES, for oxen, or sheep, or WINE, or STRONG DRINK, or whatever your heart desires; AND THERE YOU SHALL EAT IT IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD YOUR GOD AND REJOICE, you and your household.”
(NAS)
There it is, right smack-dab in the middle of the Law of Moses–God granting permission for wine and strong drink (some translations even say beer) at a religiously required meal in the presence of God Himself.
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You’ll be glad to know I never claimed to know anything about the Southern Baptists you know. I wrote about the ones I know. And your conclusion that I have “disdain” is not only unwarranted…it’s the kind of Frank Turk style evaluation I keep getting from people who apparently believe the proper attitude to one’s denomination is kind of an uncritical team loyalty. (Can anyone say “John Macarthur never got anything wrong?”) You can avoid any further concern because there is no chance I will ever have an uncritical attitude toward anything I am part of. You read and criticized my writing, so I assume you don’t feel it’s sinful to have criticisms. Good.
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Michael – Unknowingly, or maybe knowingly, you’ve revealed your personal disdain for Southern Baptists. The Southern Baptist that you describe are not the Southern Baptist that I know. The New Testament does not forbid any food or drink, but does warn us of drunkedness and encourages a sober mind. Your generalisations about an entire Christian denomination are what generalisations tend to be – wrong.
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I wonder which lie in the Baptist Church came first? The one about alcohol or the one where we come to church on Sunday and act like nothing is wrong when we’re completely broken? Growing up the same way you did always made me wonder how the “bad” guys always got away with drinking and us “good” guys couldn’t ever take a sip. Being a “teatotaler” all my life has been weird at best. I’m treated differently because I don’t drink. I’ve been left out of parties or get togethers because I don’t drink. Some of my daughter’s friends parents avoid me because they know I don’t drink. I don’t wear a sign, somehow they just know. Isn’t this a “personal” decision? I’ve never judged anyone because they drank or didn’t drink. It’s not a matter of right or wrong. It’s a matter of, is it a wise thing to do? All my life my best friends have been drinkers. I’ve met maybe one other person in my life who hasn’t had a drop of alcohol. I’ve taught my children not to drink but not for any biblical based reasons. Both of my grandfathers were alcoholics and my brother is a recovering alcoholic. I grew up two doors down from a man who drank himself to death. I watched this over many years and saw how it devistated his children and wife. I made a decision then that I’d drink coke or milk. I’m glad I did. Over the years I’ve had the displeasure of attending a few funeral home visitations where the dearly departed was a victim of the abuse of alcohol or was killed by a drunk driver. There are plenty of good reasons not to drink. In fact I have to say that I’ve never seen anything positive associated with drinking, “not that there’s anything wrong with that”. Maybe it’s just this way where I grew up. We just don’t know how to handle booze. Don’t know how to be responsible with it, don’t know how to control it. A good friend of mine had a son who, in a drunken state, fell off a 2nd floor balcony and died. His younger son a year later had to perform community service because of drunk driving. Where did they get it? Their parents liquor cabinet, of course. Let me ask this question. If your child started drinking because you had it in the home and then the child died from being under the influence, would you EVER have alcohol in your home again? Seriously! The poor father in this example doesn’t drink anymore (who could blame him) and he is ridiculed for it by his coworkers. After he and his friends play golf they go to the clubhouse and he gets water or a Sprite and his friends make fun of him! Why can’t they just get a beer and let him get his Sprite? He’s 48 years old and he’s ridiculed by his coworkers because his son died and he decided not to drink anymore. This is insane! But, I believe it’s a reflection of our society’s attitude on alcohol. Another friend of mine and I were talking about this subject the other day and he said that he could never remember hearing anyone ever saying, “boy I’m sure glad I was drunk last night!” I think it’s as simple as when Paul said, “just because everything is permissible for me doesn’t mean that everything is beneficial”. I think good common sense and some self dicipline would save more lives than all the sermons against drinking.
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Great article.
I was visiting a SBC church in Alabama for a while that had just gotten a new pastor who had an PhD from Southwestern Seminary I think. He said in a sermon that Jesus never drank, but yet he drives a Jaguar. From my perspective the SBC needs to worry more about materialism than alcoholism. But preaching against materialism (and actually drawing concrete lines for it) would alienate all the big givers in the church, and what seeker sensitive church strategy is it to tell the message that condemns someone, even if it is the gospel.
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Oft touted verse to stop good christians from imbibing.
“Not GIVEN to wine…” 1 Timothy 3:3
But the thought behind the word ‘given’ is to be ‘given-over’ to something. That is, that the person is totally controlled by the thing. ‘Handed-over’ would be another way of saying it. He is talking about hopeless alcoholics, or at least ‘drunken sots’, not social drinkers who enjoy a glass of wine with their meal.
Consider what a contradictory letter 1st Timothy would be with Paul advising the putting away of Timothy’s ‘tee-totaling’ in chapter 5… “drink no longer water [ONLY water] BUT drink a LITTLE wine for thy stomach’s sake…”
[[ie. wine in moderation isn’t sin, but drunkenness IS ]],
if
Paul was saying that drinking wine was sin in chapter 3. (which he wasn’t)
Drinking ‘wine’ [Gk: oikonos] is sin in Chapter 3, and he advises water-totaling-Timothy to START drinking wine in chapter 5 ????
Oh come on!
The ‘alcohol-is-evil’ argument is bankrupt.
‘Little wine’…good.
‘Lotta-wine’….bad.
Simple.
I do not drink any alcohol at all and haven’t for some 25 years. I just don’t like the taste, and I don’t like what it does to me [two Wine-gums and I’m anyones! 🙂 ]. It is relatively expensive, and it just doesn’t occur to me to EVER buy alcohol. I say this to counter the idea that I am trying to make a loop-hole for my self. I don’t drink. A friend of mine calls me a ‘Tea-o-logian’ I drink so much of the stuff…
‘Tea’ that is.
But I will defend the liberty of those of you who choose to follow the example of Jesus, Paul, Timothy, all of the apostles [last supper] and drink A LITTLE wine/alcohol-of-choice, and not get drunk.
Its not called ‘sin’, its called ‘liberty’.
Cheers… 😉
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Oft touted verse to stop good christians from imbibing.
“Not GIVEN to wine…” 1 Timothy 3:3
But the thought behind the word ‘given’ is to be ‘given-over’ to something. That is, that the person is totally controlled by the thing. ‘Handed-over’ would be another way of saying it. He is talking about hopeless alcoholics, or at least ‘drunken sots’, not social drinkers who enjoy a glass of wine with their meal.
Consider what a contradictory letter 1st Timothy would be with Paul advising the putting away of Timothy’s ‘tee-totaling’ in chapter 5… “drink no longer water [ONLY water] BUT drink a LITTLE wine for thy stomach’s sake…”
[[ie. wine in moderation isn’t sin, but drunkenness IS ]],
if
Paul was saying that drinking wine was sin in chapter 3. (which he wasn’t)
Drinking ‘wine’ [Gk: oikonos] is sin in Chapter 3, and he advises water-totaling-Timothy to START drinking wine in chapter 5 ????
Oh come on!
The ‘alcohol-is-evil’ argument is bankrupt.
‘Little wine’…good.
‘Lotta-wine’….bad.
Simple.
I do not drink any alcohol at all and haven’t for some 25 years. I just don’t like the taste, and I don’t like what it does to me. It is relatively expensive, and it just doesn’t occur to me to EVER buy alcohol. I say this to counter the idea that I am trying to make a loop-hole for my self. I don’t drink. A friend of mine calls me a ‘Tea-o-logian’ I drink so much of the stuff…
‘Tea’ that is.
But I will defend the liberty of those of you who choose to folow the example of Jesus, Paul, Timothy, all of the apostles [last supper] and drink A LITTLE wine/alcohol-of-choice, and not get drunk.
Its not called ‘sin’, its called ‘liberty’.
Cheers… 😉
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The argument I have heard from the uninformed is: We don’t use alcohol in either social occasions or in communion because it may be a stumbling-block to ex-alcoholics and those disposed to that kind of temptation.
My answer is in 1 Corinthians Chapter 11 and Chapter 6.
In chapter 6 Paul tells the church that no ‘drunkard’ (alcoholic) will inherit the Kingdom of God and then goes on to say “…and such were some of you…”
So we know that there were ex-alcohol-abusers in the Corinthian Church.
And in chapter 11 he speaks, without rebuke, of the alcoholic communion-wine they were using.
Some people were missing out and had none, and some greedy ones were getting drunk. You can’t get drunk on mere grape juice. It was alcoholic.
So here we have ex-alcoholics taking alcolic wine in Communion with St. Paul’s blessing. Perhaps that’s the difference between being truly delivered, and just having good intentions.
ps. Paul says in Ch11, “have you not homes to drink/eat in…?” (Social drinking…just like Jesus, who ‘fulfilled the Law/Old Testament’ by never getting drunk, never sinning in any way at all)
Have you ever thought that , if the Old Testament [or the New] says that alcohol is sin, then WE ARE ALL LOST IN OUR SINS!!!!!
Because:
If Jesus had ever sinned then Calvary means nothing. He had to be the sinless lamb of God. Only an innocent can die for the guilty, and IF drinking is sin[which it aint], then Jesus sinned [Jesus drank alcohol], and Calavary is meaningless, and I am lost, and so is the poor deluded soul who stands behind the pulpit and proclaims that drinking is sin.
Sad.
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Good article, I was a teenage drinker and abused it severely as a lost person. I was saved by Christ at 20, indoctrinated with legalism on this issue, and then started studying the issue for myself in seminary which was another brood of vipers on the issue. Today I enjoy a cold beverage and good pipe in proper respect by which it is enjoyed. I am with Luther and the Bible on the issue, whether we eat or drink we do it for the glory of God. I started a secret society to protect other brothers who like to enjoy beverage without the fear of being fired or persecuted. If anyone lives in North Georgia and would like to join, email me at societyofinquiry@mac.com.
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Michael,
That is a great article. I apparently had the same “kind” of up-bringing as you. I am a pastor of a small southern baptist church, and I have have been preaching through Galatians. I have realized in recent months that our convention seems to have its own Judaizers within–those seeking to spy out our freedom in Christ causing many “Peters” to refrain from Gentile drink and food.
I know that the Judaizers in Paul’s day really pushed circumcision of the flesh, failing to realize it was a symbol of the heart.
I do not know which one is more painful–causing a brother to be circumcised (literally/physically) or preventing one from enjoying drink or foods.
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Matthew 15:10-14 – “And He called the people to Him and said to them, ‘Hear and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.’ Then the disciples came and said to him, ‘Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?’ He answered, ‘Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.’”
Not drinking in the presence of a brother recovering from alcoholism – *that* is “not causing a weaker brother to stumble”. Not drinking to satisfy the desires of those who blindly insist on manmade rules, and thus reinforcing their legalism – that is NOT “not causing a weaker brother to stumble”.
I remember the WHI guys talking about A. A. Hodge, brother of Charles Hodge, who said that he hated the taste of beer, but when the proto-temperance crusaders rolled into town he felt obligated to drink *blatantly, in their presence*, to prove to them their blanket calls for abstinance were groundless. I wish I could find the exact quote…
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The logic of “if your brother stumbles, don’t do it” is a profoundly misunderstood part of the NT. I mean, goodness…what sorts of things would Jesus and Paul NOT have done if they followed that dictum to the core?
That logic places the entire church in the hands of objectors, over sensitive consciences, poorly taught believers and attention-seekers.
There are plenty of times we do the right thing by telling the weaker brother the way of maturity. If anyone thinks that Paul wasn’t for teaching and proclaiming the TRUTH about meat offered to idols, but instead endorsed silence so no one was offended, then you don’t get the pastoral dynamics.
My daughter attended a wine and cheese bit with her new pastor. That wasn’t sin, or unloving, or unwise. What is said and done in that context is another story.
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Chris,
I did not say “if you have a drink it will absolutely, undeniably, without a doubt cause someone to stumble.” What I said was that drinking is a stumbling block issue. Love dictates that I consider others before exercising my liberality. Scripture dictates that I not eat or drink if it will cause my brother to stumble.
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Don, I respect you and your position and love you as a brother in Christ, but I’m kind of concerned about your last statement.
Does it? I mean, I will willingly admit I may not be as versed or studied up on this as many, but it seems a bit presumptuous to me to say that if I have a drink it will absolutely, undeniably, without a doubt cause someone to stumble. I’ve always kind of held that this is where an individual’s conscience comes in.
Yes, my first and foremost goal should be to love my brother in Christ, and I would agree that if I even think that having a drink might upset, offend, or cause him/her to drink themselves when they really thought it was wrong, then my heart’s desire should be not to drink because that’s what’s best for them regardless of my own beliefs and/or preferences.
However, when people make statements that authoritatively command that you behave a certain way when it’s not 100% biblically clear that you should, it not only leads to many of the issues touched on in the original essay (feeling of being lied to, hypocrisy, and the annoying feeling of being constricted) but defeats the main premise that Paul is proporting. If I don’t drink because I’ve been told that I will absolutely be a stumbling block, then I may or may not give a rip about my brother in Christ, but instead will begrudingly be tied to a moral standard that doesn’t exist in scripture (and based on the first couple of verses of 1 Cor 13, I might be making a lot of noise that signifies nothing). If, however, I thoughtfully consider my brother’s position and then decide to act that way then I am doing it with a right heart.
I guess what I’m saying is that if Paul really meant to say that everything that is “debatable” should be absolutely avoided all the time, then why didn’t he just say that rather that spend the 19 previous verses laying out his position?
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I do not deny the issue of legalism. I condemn that as well. But by the same token you cannot deny that alcohol in the church DOES cause your brother to stumble and therefore must be governed by Romans 14:19-21. No matter what your position this truth is undeniable.
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Don:
If there were freedom in the SBC context for each person to *freely and publically* make the decision to abstain or not, as is the case in many other denominations, this brew-ha-ha (pun intended) would not be occurring. The point is that there is A) a blanket expectation of abstinence, without exception; B) engendered hypocrisy, as those whose consciences are not bound are forced to lie and hide their drinking, thus replacing a “false” sin with *real* ones; C) a cycle of rebellion engendered by binding peoples’ consciences on a secondary matter, and stifling the freedom to demonstrate responsible handling of alcohol (which is *statistically proven* to be a better way of preventing addiction than total abstinance).
Alcohol is just the pretext. *Legalism* is the issue.
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Don: Your Proverbs verses are, of course, countered 2-1 by verses that mention wine as a blessing, etc. See the Whitfield link at the beginning of this post.
Comparing verses wouldn’t be the point.
My respecting your teetotalism is part of the point, but its also clear that Paul was telling his greek converts that they were to hold to the Gospel in Christ, and not to the rules and legalisms of Judaism. We can always say a first century document isn’t a twenty-first century document, but the admonition that we are free from the constraints on eating, drinking and sabbaths is as applicable to 21st century fundamentalism as it was to 1st century Judaism.
In both cases, the truth is in Christ. Moderate use of alcohol is not condemned. It is allowed with stern warnings. Wine can be recieved as a gift and blessing of God. Our children and fellow christians need to know that, no matter what their personal choice about drinking.
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Dear iMonk,
While we are being perfectly honest here, I think it would be good to point out that the original intent of Colossians 2:16-23 had nothing at all to do with the subject of teetotaling. Paul was addressing the issue of false teachers who sought to impose dietary regulations, probably based on OT law. Paul was also pointing out the futility of asceticism, which is the attempt to achieve holiness by rigorous self-neglect. While I can see how you could loosely apply these versus to make your point, I do not believe that you can make any kind of case that Paul was referring to the issue of teetotaling. To me thatÂ’s a bit of a stretch.
Good people can disagree on this subject. But I would hope that even you could agree that there is an even greater issue at stake. Paul writes in Romans 14:19-21, “Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.”
I personally hold to the teetotalling view. Passages like Proverbs 20:1, “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise,” and Proverbs 23:31, “Do not look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly;” seem pretty plain spoken to me. But I recognize that not everyone agrees. And I’m okay with that. I won’t judge your liberality, and please don’t judge my convictions. But ultimately that should all take a backseat to the greater issue, which is that alcohol in the church IS a major stumbling block. Even you have all but admitted to it in your own testimony. I’m all for honesty. But I think we would all do well to spend a little less time fighting for our right to drink responsibly and spend a little more time thinking about how it affects the lives of those around us.
“Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others” – Philippians 2:3-4
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You star! You actually changed it! Interactive sticklering – boosh!! Gotta love the internet.
Also: as ever – top quality, Biblical essay. I love the stuff that comes out of here, I really do.
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Isn’t the basic problem a particular style of Biblical interpretation that abuses the original Greek text somewhat?
Doctrine by detailed word by word textual analysis of something written in most authors second language – and incidentally why it’s different enough from most of the classical literature written in Greek at the same point.
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There is so much confusion on this issue, especially in my own life. When I grew up, my Christian parents were teetotallers; my mom’s parents were alcoholics. My folks weren’t militant or down on anybody who drank, they just didn’t have any booze around ever. So the first time I drank in high school, I really had no frame of reference for it and swilled four or five beers in 20 minutes. Good time.
Five or six years later, when alcohol abuse had really started messing up my life, I stumbled into AA and got sober.
By this time my folks were there 40s and drinking in moderation. My dad always acted like I was limiting the Lord’s redemptive power by labeling myself alcoholic and swearing off the sauce for good. As if someday I could drink responsibly. This was confusing for a newly dry (and still thirsty) young man. Only recently did he stop routinely offering me drinks at my insistence. I don’t think he believed that I was unable to drink responsibly.
Almost a decade later, I still identify myself as a recovering alcoholic and abstain. I can say with conviction that I could walk out of my house right now and buy a beer, drink it and come home. But oh, would I want another one…
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“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” — Ben Franklin
Take care & God bless
Anne
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I grew up in a Plymouth Brethren church. I never heard any preaching against alcohol from the pulpit. However, after I was baptized, and I participated in the Lord’s Supper for the first time, I quickly decided that I wouldn’t be consuming alcohol. Why? Simple: the wine from the Lord’s Supper tasted *sour*! In retrospect, sometimes I wonder whether that was their strategy all along… 🙂
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I grew up seventh day adventist. My experience was similar, except with “keeping the sabbath” in place of alchohol. Interestingly enough, your Colossians quote covers that as well. If only I’d ever happened upon it then.
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Doesn’t it seem like the abuse of alcohol is more than just a matter of rebellion or acting irrationally? I think it goes a bit deeper than that, and that it’s more of a symptom of other problems than anything else.
And maybe that’s why the teetotalism doesn’t work – because it can’t fix the deeper issues. Maybe it’s more than finding out that your kid is drinking too much, maybe it’s finding out *why* he’s drinking too much.
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I grew up in a large baptist church in Fort Worth, Texas (Buckle of the bible belt). Now granted this was in the late 70’s early 80’s. Back then not only was drinking a sin, but so was dancing. I only went to 2 dances in high school (including senior prom), and one of them my grandad had to take me to because my parents wouldn’t let me go.
Drinking was a sin, or so I was always told, and being the good headstrong rebel, I was determined to drink as much as possible. In fact my “friends” and I used to go to a local bar between youth choir, and the evening worship service. Once when the youth choir was singing in the service I had to have one of the other guys stand next to me so I wouldn’t fall down. My parents never caught on, even if I was out late at night.
So what effect did this have on me? Well… when I got to college (away from everyone). I drank like a fish. I tried marajuana but fortunately I’m alergic to smoke. I also figured that since everybody was totally against sex that I should try that out too. No wonder I flunked out of college twice.
Now I can’t say that I blame all the bad decisions I’ve made in my life on any of this, but I can see how it contributed to it. If we don’t talk honestly with teens about things then how can we expect them to believe a word we say about anything. I’ve got a 16 year old son, and believe me when I say that he’s getting the straight talk on stuff, all KINDS of stuff.
Michael, I appreciate the Colosians 2:16-23 passage. It sure puts a new spin on things.
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Ah! The infamous bachelor party with tea in a Lord Calvert bottle. “This tastes like lukewarm
tea” Can you forgive me? We should never have poured the real stuff out.
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Hey iMonk,
I hate to do this, I really do, but I really can’t stop myself – y’know, “the good that I will I do not”, and all that – so please forgive me in advance, but…
…should there REALLY be a comma after “one”? It’s not an adjective.
I’msorryI’msorryI’msorry sticklering is an addiction blame Romans 7. *ducks*
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This is one issue that sent me running and screaming away from the SBC in my late teens. I got sick of self-righteous prigs bad-mouthing even the moderate use of alcohol on Sunday mornings. My parents were (are) devout believers and yet didn’t have a problem with occasional and moderate use of alcohol. I knew it was one big lie.
I’m Anglican now. My family still is SBC. Their pastor stops short of saying alcohol is sinful, but my parents don’t drink in public, and my sister and bro-in-law have forbidden drinking in front of my niece. I’ll go along with it, but I think it’s loopy to assume that drinking responsibly and appropriately in front of my niece will lead her into wild drunkenness and abandon.
:: eyes rolling ::
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Those who have commented on C. S. Lewis concerning his observations in Screwtape Letters about use of alcohol when alone as a painkiller being more likely to make an alcoholic than when used with friends as an enjoyment is noteworthy since his brother became an alchoholic.
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As I read your stories of being lied to, I remember well my similar experiences, except my family, relatives, and even church members did not live a lie. They lived as they believed. The lies began to dawn on me once I arrived at college, perhaps in my sophomore or junior years.
The institution where I teach prohibits any use of adult beverages 365 days per year. In other words, the institution binds the consciences of its employees. Well, of course, that’s were the lie enters. I know employees who sign the covenant of prohibition but imbibe anyway. I have never known anyone who has been terminated for drinking, despite the fact that termination is a stated disciplinary action for anyone who violates the covenant.
I have always submitted an extended statement that qualifies my signing of the covenant. I will not violate my free conscience by yielding it to human prohibition of matters that the Lord Jesus Christ does not prohibit. The issue for me is not a desire to use adult beverages; it is a matter of conscience. Ironically, two years ago when I submitted my five-page statement that explains biblically why I must maintain loyalty to Jesus Christ and not yield my conscience to the lordship of humans who want to rule my conscience, I found myself needing to defend myself under hostile attack. This happened while others who signed the statement without submitting any qualifications and were known by the administrators to drink alcoholic beverages, remained completely untouched and unchallenged. In matters such as adult beverages, at Christian institutions, it often matters who one is rather than what one does even after signing a covenant. This is the big lie that really irks me.
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Jody has an excellent point. C. S. Lewis noted something similar in Screwtape Letters, where he said that alcohol was much more likely to make an alcoholic when used alone as a painkiller, than with friends as an enjoyment. (Of course, collegiate binge-drinking was so far out of his radar screen…)
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Which situation is more likely to lead to problems with alcohol: one who drinks alone without speaking of it or one who can in good conscience share a drink with their Christian brothers and sisters? Total abstinence drives those who enjoy responsible drinking into hiding where the potential for abuse only grows.
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I assume ‘gladdening the heart’ is referring to the uplifting effect wine, in moderation, can sometimes have. I know I have, on occasion, sat down to a nice meal, tired, hungry and a little depressed. And after a bit of food and drink I felt on top of the world again. Whether it’s a glass of refreshing cold water, a bite of a sumptious rare steak, a relaxing glass of wine or a cup of hot tea, I am amazed at how the proper use of food and drink can help improve one’s state of mind and sense of well being.
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>Psalm 104:14-15 4 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth 15 and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.
Friendly question:
What do you believe Psalm 104:15 is talking about when it says God made wine to “gladden” the heart of man?
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Why should we have to choose between extremes? That’s the problem in so many areas–few seem to know how to walk the path of moderation.
I grew up in the SBC church, raised by parents who, as young adults in the 50’s, signed an oath, in church, to never touch alcohol. We were a tee-totalling household to the max. My parents were always shaking their heads predicting alcoholism in the children of family members who drank. (The reality was that my two uncles, son’s of my dad’s tee-totalling Baptist parents became alcoholics–but, then again, one of the son’s of a drinking family member also became an alcoholic.) When I became a teenager, after reading the Bible through, I couldn’t come to the conclusion that drinking, per se, was wrong–only drunkeness. Still I did not touch alcohol until I was in college (it was not underage drinking, in those days). For most of college, I did not drink. But one day a dear friend, a Venezuelan, wanted to celebrate my birthday by buying me a glass of wine. I had tried before to explain why I didn’t drink, but between not being able to explain Southern Baptist culture to her and since I no longer could claim religious convictions–I could tell she was never going to understand. Her face told me that my refusal was hurting her feelings. Caught between love for my lost friend and my upbringing, I made the momentous decision to accept the drink. It would be many years before I would take another. But eventually I decided that an occasional glass of wine was healthy and sometimes relaxing.
I won’t go into the long story of how I left the Baptist denomination for many years and then was led back to it…the irony is that God brought our family into the fold of a little country Southern Baptist church, one with many of the same old patterns and beliefs that caused me to leave SBC churches in the first place. But now I am at peace—sort of like finally accepting the quirks and weaknesses of the biological family you are born into. Often the subject of the local liquor laws comes up–my pastor is aggravated because he could find little support from the larger Baptist churches in the area to keep our town ‘dry’. I say little on the subject. I come across as a tee-totaler because while not opposed to drinking I do not like the ‘drinking culture’ and don’t particularly care to have the sale of alcohol in all the stores, as we now do–so I can nod my head to much of what is said. However, since I have never had the chance to say much on the subject, sometimes I wonder if I am part of perpetuating the lie that you speak of. The most I have done was to jokingly quote Chesterton about it being better to think about God in a bar than to think about drink in church (or something to that effect) to my pastor when he was complaining about a church that met in a bar. Otherwise, I remain silent on the subject….
Another source of hypocrisy, IMO, is the not uncommon use of mind/mood altering prescription medication among many who would never touch a drop of liquor. I suppose they consider it treating an ‘illness’. But I still see it as ingesting something that effects the mind to make onesself feel better–and so I cannot quite see how that’s any different from drinking alcohol for physical or mental health reasons. Both can be and are abused. Abuse of either can destroy lives. Let’s at least be consistent if we are going to proscribe the use of mind altering substances.
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Is it better to grow up under stifling legalsim than in debauchery?
I’ve been down both roads to a certain extent. They both suck. Arguing about which is “better” is like arguing over whether it’s better to have your left leg chopped off, or your right.
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IM:
It isn’t any solution at all (why am I thinking about “Team America” right now?).
Sorry I missed the point: my trackback was meant to point to a tangential post, not a refutation of yours. I don’t mean to deny the abuse and harm done in many churches.
Pain is pain: I was wrong to compare or attempt to quantify it.
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Mike at Eternal Perspectives just wrote me to make clear that the trackbacked article isn’t about me personally. While I feely he completely missed the point and the tone of my piece, he makes a reasonable point from the perspective of his journey and I appreciate that. I would simply say this is about legalism, and legalism often protects us from bad things. But having a bully protect you from bullies isn’t a great solution now is it?
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I agree. But that is another post, and again, what church or institution can bind the conscience agains “dancing?” (My school has a rule against it, and allows several kinds of folk dancing. Go figure.)
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Two of your readers mentioned no dancing (even innocent homecomings and proms). Well I guess they haven’t been to any recent homecomings or proms because the last few I have chaporoned have been far from innocent. The dancing was downright “dirty” or shall I say bootylicious? But that’s a whole other article.
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I grew up in a Dispensationalist, Arminian Baptist Church which taught us drinking alcohol and dancing were sins, amongst other things. I had a shock when I read the bible for myself.
I later attended a Churches of Christ theological college and can never forget a discussion with a lovely man who was dead against the drinking of alcohol. He told me that the bible teaches abstinence, and all the usual arguments. I patiently showed him that the bible teaches no such thing, and he kept putting up counter-arguments and I kept knocking them down, until he finally said:
I don’t care what the bible says! Drinking alcohol is wrong!
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I’m pretty glad I had parents who treated alcohol as just a beverage, because when I got to college, that’s pretty much how I treated it (most of the time). The Bible only seems to matter to a fundamentalist insofar as it can be used to support legalism.
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“A couple times people have argued that strict prohibition leads to the sin. That is the nature of our flesh (Romans 7) Does that mean that we should never passionately and emphaticaly be against anything? Should we apply that universally on all virtues? Should I should not tell my children that anything is certainly and absolutely wrong for fear that it will make it more likely that they do it?”
There is two things that we *ought* to be passionately and emphatically against – setting our moral standards apart from Christ, and setting prohibitions against things that Scripture does not. Bare prohibitions, even against those things that Scripture *is* clear about, are useless apart from the Spirit, as the Romans 7 passage you cite proves clearly. How much more useless and frustrating are those prohibitions set up against those things that are not specifically condemned in Scripture! (Col 2:20-22)
I think the real problem is some can’t handle the fact that there is no blanket prohibition or endorsement in Scripture on this matter. Some have the calling to abstain, some have the calling to enjoy – but some can’t understand why God didn’t call everyone to the same thing. But God gives both callings, and thus there ought to be the sense of accountability primarily to God for our choices in these secondary matters – and to set the boundaries we demand of others only where Scripture draws them, and with charity (Romans 14).
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I don’t believe I can prohibit drinking WINE and be consistant with the Bible. In fact, I am responsible for taking the prohibition of the sale and use of alcohol OUT OF our covenant for Biblical reasons stated by others. I don’t believe I can deny membership to someone because they drink wine. (of course 98% of SBC churches don’t use Covenants in any meaninful way, many are in the church basement) However, from the pulpit, I will try to persuade people not to drink on principle of love, and a prudent awareness of the immoderate culture we live in.
I live in a college town and I know that binge drinking is epidemic here and throughout this country. I think it is wise and prudent for Christians to look at their culture and limit their rights for the sake of their unique situation. As I stated earlier, I think it is a healthy testimony to say, my life is complete in Christ and for fear that I may lead another into danger, I abstain. I definately think that if the Apostle Paul ministered on a university campus, he would abstain.
Both of my grandfathers were alcoholics, I today suffer from the ripple affects of their addiction.
If a Christian has a genetic disposition to alcoholism and they see me as a dedicated Christian handle alcohol in moderation, I fear that I bear some responsibility for opening a door for them that they might otherwise wisely avoid.
A couple times people have argued that strict prohibition leads to the sin. That is the nature of our flesh (Romans 7) Does that mean that we should never passionately and emphaticaly be against anything? Should we apply that universally on all virtues? Should I should not tell my children that anything is certainly and absolutely wrong for fear that it will make it more likely that they do it?
I’m thankful that the 10 commandments are commandments and not suggestions.
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How many “amens” can I say? Brilliant essay. It’s great to see someone recommend “Drinking with Luther and Calvin”. I just lent my copy to a fellow member of my church last week. But then again, we’re “presbyterians” (even if I am baptistic). Have you read “Jesus and the Pleasures” put out by Fortress? It’s more liberal (higher critical) than I like, but it does offer a good corrective to the nonsense that’s out there. Again, kudos!
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Bruce,
I have a 25 year old daughter. I cannot imagine the tragedy you have endured. I will pray for you. May God ease your pain.
Pilgrim
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My Lutheran Church in Alabama…in a dry county on Sunday….used to hold Octoberfest…. complete with Keg. Alcohol in moderation is fine..to excess is stupidity.
I’ve known a number of people who are anti-alcohol….I found that many of them had another vice, to me even worse, such as chain smoking. Drinking was evil, but smoking was fine.
Anyone else see the flaw in that argument?
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Growing up in the Pentecostal / Holiness circles in the South, I too heard many of the teetotaler and the additional rules of:
no dancing (even innocent homecoming/proms), no movies (but they would watch them on VCR or the edited Sunday Night version), no tobacco, no card games, no bowling alleys and restraunts that served beer, no sporting events (served beer and were on Sundays), and absolutely no alcohol. However, the grocery store served beer and they shopped there Go Figure??? Those things were a direct path to Hell. Deacons were not to drink no smoke (it was in the handbook) and it would ‘send your soul to hell’
However, when they went out of town on business trips. When the wife and kids went out of town to see the mother-in-law. When they went to see the co-worker at their home after hours and stay for a long time…. They drank.
In public, they were teetotalers and would preach a fire and brimstone sermon of demon drink sending souls to hell. In private, they took the ‘secret sip’.
It was funny how the demon brew was hidden and it was all denied. All they could really do was to think about what they could not do. All they really did behind closed doors was what they were not supposed to do. Funny how the kids found it hidden and got plastered and today will not go to church because of the ‘hyprocracy’
Amazing
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I’m not really sure what to think of this essay. I myself don’t drink, never have, probably never will. I can’t go against my conscience, many of my friends do, I don’t have a problem with that. I also don’t smoke, even though I enjoyed cigars once in a while in college, because of health reasons and just because I think it’s generally nasty and unnecessary. I have many friends at my church that smoke and dip, which I also frown on. As a matter of fact the pastor dips. I frown on all of this, but I don’t see it as inherently sinful for all, it’s a secondary issue I suppose. But the reason I don’t smoke or drink is health (I have asthma) and I don’t want to spend my hard-earned money on alcohol and because my best-friend struggled with alcoholism for years. But I am from the south and while alcoholism has never been really preached on (I heard Adrian Rogers preach on it once), it is frowned upon. But it’s never been outrightly condemned, it’s kinda in flux here, there are some who are adament against it, others are very open, many don’t know where they stand. So, maybe some of the South in the SBC are becoming more open, or maybe more confused.
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“The Southern Baptist Convention cannot ethically, Biblically require its members or employees or seminary students to vote Republican, be pro-life, withdraw from public schools, believe young earth creationism or abstain from the use of alcohol as a beverage. They can urge these things as reasonable conclusions to the question of “How should a Christian live?” They can speculate on what Jesus would do. They can preach, teach and argue the point from scripture.”
Maybe I’ve misunderstood – someone help me.
Is Michael saying that the SBC can’t ethically or biblically require its members and employees to be pro-life?
Not nitpicking… just confused, that’s all.
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Five years ago, my 25 yr. old daughter was killed in a car accident by the drunk (BAC .27) son of an Assemblies of God elder. My interpretation is that the son, who had a long standing drinking problem, had a serious reaction to the AOG teachings on the HS and its legalism. Had the AOG taught a more reasonable understanding of the Bible, my daughter would be alive today.
Having said that, I wouldn’t mind getting totally plastered to see if it doesn’t drown my sorrows. Nothing else has worked.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teetotaler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_beverage
Great posts. Once again, we agree.
Thanks.
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The teaching I received growing up was similar to Kay’s but, might I add, no makeup, no jewelry, no rock music, . . .
When I asked my youth leader, who was also an M.D., about alcohol in the Bible, about Jesus turning water into wine and so forth, I was met with this reply: “Is it okay to drink a whole lot of wine?” I replied with a doe-eyed “No.”
If something is bad in large quantity, don’t you think it’s also bad in small quantity?”
I asked him if he’d every heard of water toxicity. I received a formal reprimand from the elders. I thought my mother was going to stroke out.
Loved your post, iMonk.
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My experience is in the Assembly of God — no dancing (even innocent homecoming/proms), no movies, no tobacco, no card games, and absolutely no alcohol. Those things were a direct path to Hell.
The youth pastor married one of the girls in his group, and subsequently became senior pastor and cheated on her, but that was okay and he remained pastor because he had not indulged in:
Dancing
Drinking
Alcohol
Tobacco
Card Games or
Movies.
I am still a Christian but not a churchgoer.
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And pure alcohol *is* nasty, too. However, when part of the composition of a well-crafted brew or vintage, some find it just as tasty as you find curried broccoli.
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I would say that the argument that alcohol tastes and smells bad is a matter of taste. Some of us find the smell and taste of wine, beer or liquor to be pleasing. Also, you make an interesting inquiry, but I would say that when you do notice a change in your perception, you’ve probably drank too much. Those of us who drink regularly can usually have maybe two drinks and be fine. Some people it is four, some it is none. This is a lesson in responsibility.
As for fun stories, I mentioned one in another post on this subject but I’ll repeat it here. I am from Texas and was raised Southern Baptist (I am Evangelical Covenant now); my grandfather was a hellfire and brimstone Baptist preacher. My Dad had distanced himself from that whole thing, and while still a Christian, now drank beer and wine regularly (yet responsibly). Every time his parents came into town, there was always a mad dash to hide all of the alcoholic beverages or throw them away before they arrived. It always seemed silly to me.
Another one I just remembered has to do with when my dad married his second wife (my former stepmother, a rather terrible person). His wife was the type that was more interested in having what she wanted than considering the affinities of her guests, and so she insisted that alcohol be served at her wedding reception (my mother tells me that her and my father’s reception was completely dry). I sat with my grandparents, aunt, uncle and cousins, who were very vocally unhappy with the presence of this demon brew. The kicker came when I committed the sin of all sins–I danced with a bridesmaid (I was 10 years old). I got a scolding for dancing and an earful about how far down the path my Dad had gone for daring to serve alcohol at his wedding reception.
And yes, Los Angeles and DC are a little bit different from growing up in the South.
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I found out broccoli tastes good covered with Indian spices. Plus a friend cooked broccoli “the correct way,” and it tasted almost sweet enough not to make me cringe, although I still did when I ate it. Plain broccoli still smells bad, though. Point taken on that.
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Since you asked for teetotaler testimonials, as Mormons we preach abstinence from alcohol, and I have never known anyone active in the church to drink alcohol. Of course I don’t live in the West. Out there the standing joke is “if you’re going to take a Mormon fishing, take two. Otherwise he’ll drink all the beer”.
Our more likely crime in North Carolina would be iced tea. I have known a few people who fudged on that one, but not a large number.
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Whoa. Stop. Right THERE.
“If God gave us alcohol for our enjoyment, then why does it smell and taste so bad?”
If God gave us broccoli for our nutrition, then why does *it* taste and smell so bad? (Will you buy that line of argument from your kids?)
“How does one know one is drunk? Are the first signs of altered mood and thinking considered drunkenness?”
So your point is that *any* effect on the brain by any chemical is bad? Do you, by any chance, drink coffee?
“But where does one draw the line outside of total abstinence?”
That is a decision that each must make based on their circumstances. Some probably should completely abstain; some can drink to various degrees; NOBODY should get intoxicated. The Bible is clear on the last point (Eph. 5:18), and clear on the freedom to choose between the first two (Romans 14).
“Did Jesus ever dine with unrepentant alcoholics? Or did the alcoholics first believe on Him, and then He went to eat with them, while the Pharisees believed drunks never could be saved?”
Uh, *where* in the Gospels do you find *any* indication that Jesus made prior repentance a condition of being in His company? In many cases, the repentance came *after* He spent time with them, and they saw in Him the grace of God that they never saw in the Pharisees.
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Comments like the last one make me glad I’ve always popped open a cold one by the time I get around to reading this site.
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>>Uh….different UNIVERSE in terms of the SBC. Have you ever lived in the south? I mean, the real south, where the real SBC is the equivalent of the RCC in the rest of the country?<<
Nope; Visited, considering move to Charleston for a job, never actually lived there.
Sounds like, if I do, I’ll have to join some other church besides the Semi-Established Church of the South.
Incidentally, I find that being Baptist in a blue state is a lot more fun than what you people describe it as. Nothing like having the local Gay Pride march down your street or a water cooler conversation with the office Wiccan to make alcohol and so forth fade to the trivia it is.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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If God gave us alcohol for our enjoyment, then why does it smell and taste so bad? How does one know one is drunk? Are the first signs of altered mood and thinking considered drunkenness? What was the chemical difference between new wine and old in Biblical times? Did old wine result in quicker drunkenness? I probably could find some kind of alcohol I would like drinking in order to enjoy myself with others. But where does one draw the line outside of total abstinence?
Did Jesus ever dine with unrepentant alcoholics? Or did the alcoholics first believe on Him, and then He went to eat with them, while the Pharisees believed drunks never could be saved?
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Oh, I found the origin of Teetotaler:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=t&p=5
-Jim Bob
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I think the discussion of “reasons” not to drink could take up a thousand posts. I heartily endorse it. But proscribing a Biblical view that doesn’t exist can’t be one of them.
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I grew up as a Conservative Baptist MK. In CB circles, the whole teetotal thing is well-established, too, although in my experience, CBers are perhaps less militant about it. My parents are missionaries in Austria. In Europe, being a teetotaler can actually impair your ability to connect with people (it’s not understood at all and can be a fairly significant social barrier).
My parents are with the CB mission board, World Venture (formerly CBI, formerly CBFMS), which is (or used to be) technically “dry” in its requirements of its missionaries, I think. But I also believe that it’s understood that in some cases, the missionaries will need to practice discretion as to this policy.
Not good. This kind of divergence in official policy and informally sanctioned practices sends all kind of weird messages.
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An AG comment, here:
I didn’t grow up in this kind of environment (my parents drank wine or brandy on holidays, and so did we kids, and my dad had a beer every day of his life). However, my wife did, and she can completely relate to your upbringing. After all, AG kids were supposed to be holier than the Baptists! 😉 So she’s always had a bit of culture shock around me, though she’s tried a drop from time to time. I just found out recently that our church membership policy has a rider proscribing any and all alcohol use– something I wasn’t aware of when we joined, didn’t sign, and so don’t feel bound by it. And we’ve recently discovered that our friends, who are the worship/music pastors of the other AG church in town, like a beer or a glass of wine with dinner. Egads!
To look at the other side, though, my wife has made a decision not to drink, and here are her reasons. She’s 1/2 Navajo, and alcohol is a serious– catastrophic– social problem on the reservation. She lost two uncles who were hit by trucks while walking drunk along a highway. Another uncle died of cirrosis, and a fourth possibly was drunk when he died in a car wreck. Four out of five, dead because of alcohol. So, she has determined not to support an industry that makes its money selling products that destroy lives. She has no problem with me having an occasional drink (I’ve never been drunk), and I respect her decision not to participate. See Romans 14– “Let each one be fully convinced in his own mind.”
But her minister-parents would not even go into a restaurant that served alcohol, much less a theatre or bowling alley, and believed the grapey-not-winey nonsense about the wedding at Cana. It’s not preached much anymore around us, but I know that it’s still believed in the background. And I’m pretty sure that it’s privately disregarded just as widely as you say it is among the SBC.
You’re right: you just can’t make the Bible proscribe all drinking.
A question: does any body know what the etymology of “teetotaler” is? I’ve always wondered.
-Jim Bob
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Hashman. I totally agree with you. I’m a little unclear as to what you are saying though. I am not promoting drinking. I want to be clear about that.
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Soon I’ll be meeting with an 18 year old who has been in trouble 3 times for DUI. I’m thankful that I can say, honestly and with credibility, the he does not need alcohol and that if he never took another drink he wouldn’t be in the least bit worse off.
I’m thankful for the men in my life who, by their example, showed me that the only thing that I MUST HAVE in my life is Christ.
Blessings!
Hashman
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Yep. Been there. Grew up in the SBC of the Texas Panhandle. Not the Deep South, but not too far from it, either.
The assumption of teetotaling and the ready availability of alcohol were probably major contributing factors to the reality that most of the church kids in my high school class were alcoholics at some point.
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Bob….you are the tip of the iceberg.
Listen out there readers…the SINCERE…and I mean that with all my heart…the SINCERE teetotalers NEED to read this kind of thing and understand that we are sending hundreds of thousands of our young people out into college and the culture with a bodacious LIE at the center of what we’ve told them is required.
We need to stop it. I don’t care about the health of institutional support from teetotalers. THis is just as bad as saying God opposes interracial dating. He doesn’t. We can’t. You can have your opinion, but you can’t bind people to an unethical position.
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I taught at a large baptist church school in the in the early 90’s.
Not only could we not drink, we could not enter a theater (not even to see G-rated movies) and we could not tell anyone else on staff what we were being paid (we individually negotiated our contracts, and some of us were better at it than others). We had to sign a contract stating all this.
I taught Bible. One day, the daughter of the worship pastor asked me what I thought about drinking.
I stopped.
I thought.
I thought some more…
I answered… “Weellll… I think it’s wrong if you are breaking the law/underage…which would be all of you in this room!” I said, pointing my finger up and down every row. “It would be wrong if you are getting drunk. And it would be wrong if you are causing someone else to sin.”
“That’s all?” she asked?
pause…
“Yes.” I answered.
Wrong answer.
Anyway, after promising to not speak of it again (I thought just in class, but I thought wrong), a couple of days later the same girl approached and laid out the position I had put out there in class.
“That’s what you believe?” she asked.
“uh…Yeah…” says I.
“Would you sign this?” she said as she held up a piece of paper with said position already written upon it.
“Get outta here!” says I.
Wrong answer again…
I got called into the principal’s office… It wasn’t enough to simply never speak of it again in any context whatsoever…they wanted me to tell the kids that drinking was a sin.
I couldn’t.
So they fired me. Even cheated me on severance (which I had to demand at threat of arbitration since I hadn’t technically broken my contract).
Years later I became good friends with someone who knew the Pastor of that church- the very pastor who had made the final call on my firing.
After I told him this story, my friend snorted and told me that not only does that pastor drink, he even has a secret, hidden wet-bar in his house!
Sheesh… These people think they are saving others from misery and sin… but they are only making it much worse for the kids they are convincing that “Alcohol must be really, really cool if they want to keep it away from us so badly.”
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Brian,
I grew up like iMonk in SBC churches in the South (Alabama and Florida) and it probably is very different than LA and DC. Teetotalism was encouraged, demanded, required. In my previous church, which was Baptist (just not in name), you could not be in leadership if you drank. Period. I think I understand where iMonk is coming from. I still wrestle with those issues today. Somewhere deep within a well of pride springs up when I say that I have never had a drop of alcohol. Thankfully God brought my wife into my life who grew up in a very different background. He’s using her and her family to balance me out.
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Randy….Thanks for reading.
This is a real issue for me. It is a covenant where I work. (Though the covenant was added post my own employment, so I was never asked to sign it.)
I put my view on the previous post:
“I believe it is time for conservative evangelicals (including Southern Baptists) to express their opposition to the abuse of alcohol through other means than requiring teetotalism in church and denominational covenants. I believe such a required abstinence simply cannot be sustained Biblically, forces thousands of believers into unnecessary, unloving crisis of conscience and hinders our ability to share the Gospel. I in no way believe that we should promote the use of alcohol, but I do believe that for churches to require abstinence as a requirement of membership is simply, Biblically, missionally wrong. It is a matter for individuals and families to decide, not for the church or its institutions to require.
In that paragraph I am not saying what any Christian ought to do. I am contending that we cannot Biblically require people to bind their conscience to teetotalism and it’s wrong to do so. Around that I would hope there could be proud agreement.
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Ironically, so-called “Biblical” teetotalism does not approach the complete abstinence undertaken by Nazarites: “He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried. All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk” (Numbers 6:3-4).
Nazarites could not eat grapes or raisins, and Welch’s would be out of the question. Bring this up whenever one of the teetotaling SBCers gives you grief in real life.
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Very sensitively done, Michael.
I am a Nazarene from Indiana, which must be a lot like being a Southern Baptist from Kentucky, except for the obvious doctrinal differences which probably aren’t so different either.
In my life (which is about as long as your life, I guess) I’ve never known a Nazarene to openly drink. I’ve discussed this matter with a few folks who disagree with the church’s stand for teetotality (never heard that word before), but they don’t drink openly. Reading your piece makes me think that there must be a lot of drinking going on behind closed doors, though. Maybe I’m just blind.
I’ve been struggling with this issue, mostly internally, as I’ve been reading the recent posts at BHT. If I started drinking now I would probably need therapy or something. And I would have a hard time encouraging my 23 year old son to drink, although I know he has.
And one thought keeps coming to mind, relating to the 2000 years that have passed since the Bible was written: we drive cars that go fast and they didn’t. Red herring?
Thanks, Michael. I’m trying to decide whether I dare link to your post.
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That’s right. You answered it yourself: Los Angeles and Washington, D.C. Didn’t know we even HAD Southern Baptist churches in Los Angeles! (ok, just kidding)
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>Los Angeles and Washington DC
rofl
Uh….different UNIVERSE in terms of the SBC. Have you ever lived in the south? I mean, the real south, where the real SBC is the equivalent of the RCC in the rest of the country? Trust me. I am not in a cult. This IS the SBC I grew up in and that Mohler is talking to.
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Hello Michael,
I must have been raised stupid or something. As I posted in the previous article on this, I have been in southern baptist churches for more than twenty years and I had no idea the denomination was teetotal until just this moment.
Alcohol use was discouraged, yes, but I never heard one sermon advocating teetotalism. Just the usual “don’t get drunk” stuff you can hear from any intelligent person. Nor was it served at church functions, but it did show up often outside church, at normal family meals and suchlike.
Why is your SBC experience so different from mine? But then, I went to church in Los Angeles and Washington DC, maybe SBC in places like that is mildly different from Kentucky-style SBC.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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I read it. I think you meant well, but that discussion takes some serious preparation so that it is clear 1) you oppose all kinds of abuse of alcohol 2) you are not predisposed to promote the use of alcohol by anyone (like voting wet for instance) 3) that you understand some history they need to know. 4) that you honor the intentions of the SBC, but can’t honor a dishonorable binding of the conscience without the Bible
IOWs, resign. Run. Now.
Seriously, get a copy of “Drinking With Calvin and Luther.” There’s an eyeopener.
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Great stuff Michael. Great post. You and I have walked a similar trail in life. I’ll be posting this on my blog in a few minutes.
By the way, I posted a recent episode I had with my church on The Boar’s Head Tavern, before I read this post. I’m to lazy to post it here.
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