UPDATE II: Daniel Whitfield’s comprehensive survey of the Biblical teaching on Alcohol use is a must have resource. Top notch. Distribute widely please. My own journey through the hypocrisy of Southern Baptists on this issue was written in One Big Happy Lie.
UPDATE: Please read the comments on this post. Sad, sad, sad. The traditions of men doing exactly what Jesus said they would do.
Missouri Southern Baptists- 600,000 of them- are being torn apart by a battle indicative of what the current Southern Baptist Convention faces.
Alcohol- specifically what position regarding moderate, temperate use of alcoholic beverages churches are obligated to endorse- was the big issue at the recent Missouri Baptist convention meeting. Alcohol fundamentalists are well aware that the Bible is not on the side of their teetotal position, but that isn’t stopping them from insisting that Missouri Baptists must be united on this issue.
In other words, Biblical authority takes a back seat to the authority of culture and opinion. These are the same people that wanted any SBC professor fired who didn’t say he/she believed the Bible was without error in all that it affirms.
This issue, if not resolved, will cost Southern Baptists a bunch of future church affiliations and the already precarious interest of thousands of younger pastors. This issue needs to be shelved and soon. This will strangle cooperation at a time it is most needed.
Neither the SBC’s Cooperative Program mechanism for funding mission work or the Baptist Faith and Message doctrinal statement require the position of the alcohol fundamentalists. Everyone is aware that this isn’t about the abuse of alcohol, and a fair number of the people getting red-faced over the issue show evidence that if the bar in question were a buffet, they’ve been frequenting it more than once a year.
Unite around the Gospel essentials that will support cooperative missions. The path of wisdom is obvious. Ramming this non-Biblical binding of conscience down the throats of Southern Baptists is going to be a disaster for the SBC’s connection with future generations.
Your comments welcome, especially if you are a Southern Baptist.
The Internet Monk Archives 
Cool blog all we need islashings of sexy livejasmin girls could do with more like it, good luck with this by the way jasminlive
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Whenever I hear an assertion that The Last Supper had no wine I make a point:
The refrigerator did not exist as yet. You _couldn’t_ have only grape-juice at the time. Barring a miracle, that is; and I don’t recall that one being documented, it would certainly have been noteworthy.
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Even full abstinence from alcohol still doesn’t solve the deeper problem of sinful addiction. I think those who don’t deal with the addiction would just find another substance of choice.
Like in-your-face Temperance and Prohibition?
(Proven from SCRIPTURE! of course…)
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Nicholas Anton,
Following your reasoning regarding wine in Biblical times, those who choose to drink now need only dilute their wine to more closely match that in the Bible…but I don’t understand how responsible, moderate, and discreet consumption of alcohol contributes to the social problems created by alcohol abuse. Even full abstinence from alcohol still doesn’t solve the deeper problem of sinful addiction. I think those who don’t deal with the addiction would just find another substance of choice.
Also, I don’t believe anyone is ‘insisting’ on alcoholic wine for all people in all situations. Why do you keep ‘insisting’ on no alcoholic wine, ever, for anyone?
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Regarding alcohol content of wine in biblical times
Nicholas,
You’re grasping at straws. Truly, knowing whether wine was 4%, 12%, 20%, more or somewhere in the middle back then is irrelevant. We know from numerous accounts of drunkenness as well as the admonitions not to be “drunk with wine” that whatever the actual percentage was, it was of a high enough percentage that one could get drunk. I think it’s a reasonable assumption that one didn’t have to chug 4 gallons of it in 20 minutes to achieve the drunken state.
Second, grapes themselves, in and on the skins, contain yeast. More yeast is added to create wine and convert the sugars into alcohol, but naturally occurring yeast within the grape itself remains even in regular grape juice. So unless the Lord provided the Hebrews with something magical to remove all traces of yeast from the non-alcoholic grape juice you insinuate they would need to follow the Lord’s literal command, I think it’s safe to say your interpretation of what is being referred to in the Exodus passage is not correct.
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re; the discussion on communion wine;
Note, the following instructions to Israel regarding the Passover;
Exo 12:19-20;
SEVEN DAYS SHALL THERE BE NO LEAVEN FOUND IN YOUR HOUSES: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land. Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.
The word, “eatâ€, can also be interpreted “consume, devourâ€.
Note the following add on the net; “Lavin Premium Wine Yeastâ€
The Question?
1) In that the Bible states, “There shall no leaven be found in your houses:, and in that leaven/yeast is used to ferment wine, is fermented wine therefore also on the “excluded†list for the Passover? (I am not referring to tradition, but to God’s literal command)
2) In that in the symbolism of the Bread and Cup which represents the Crushed, Broken Body and Spilled Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the fermenting process has nothing to do with the symbolism, why make issue about fermentation or alcohol?
3) In that the Bible NEVER refers to “wine†at The Lord’s Table, but to “The Cupâ€, why insist on alcoholic wine?
Now do your own mathematics.
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To totally argue the contemporary use of wine from the basis of Biblical usage is folly, in that the designation of the term and composition of wine used as a beverage in both the Old and New Testament is at best unclear. Contemporary opinion on the matter is varied and divided. Furthermore, we have little knowledge as to the alcohol content of the beverage called wine. They did not have liquor control commissions to determine the content and control the substance as we do today. It can be clearly determined that the use of the term, wine, can refer to both fresh and fermented grape juice, as well as to the juice of other plants. History informs us that grape juice, called wine, could be kept in an unfermented state for up to a year even in New Testament times. History also informs us that in Bible times fermented wines were also boiled down into a syrup for preservation and purification, in which state they would have very limited alcohol content. History also tells us that wines were usually mixed with water when used as a beverage. Furthermore, many references to the use of wine in the Bible are made without moral judgment, similar to the references of King David taking wives and concubines. These references in themselves neither affirm nor deny the practices listed.
We must therefore base contemporary use of wine and other alcohol beverages on the principles as taught in Scripture, especially in the New Testament. We must also take into consideration the increased contemporary knowledge on the substance. We must not only make our judgments on the basis of similarities, but also in which ways the contemporary substance and its use are different from Bible times. Likewise, we must adjust the Old Testament ethic to fit the strengthened ethic as taught by Jesus, “e.g.; “…It has been said…â€, versus “…but I say unto you…â€.
Because of Biblical principles, and contemporary evidence against contemporary use of contemporary alcohol, the only wise thing for a contemporary Christian is to abstain from habitual social drinking. The practice of social drinking becomes sin when I put at risk the physical and spiritual welfare of my own person plus anyone that may be influenced by me in the liberties I take. If Christian use of the substance contributes to the massive, well documented social problem, than it is sin.
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Found an interesting article on the origin of using grape juice during Holy Communion rather than wine:
http://www.gbod.org/worship/default_body.asp?act=reader&item_id=1743
Corroborated on this site:
http://www.welchs.com/company/company_history.html
Isn’t that great…changing the practice of what to use in the Lord’s Supper because of the efforts of an enterprising young guy named Welch? 🙂
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That’s exactly the point. This kind of pietism will strangle and strangle and strangle back to works righteousness over time. These kind of fallen human “lawsâ€, or doctrine of demons, over time constrict and constrict, the kind of thing you saw with the Pharisees over time. Not, as Dr. Rosenbladt once said, “…like the relaxation that one finds with the Gospelâ€. Calvin made this very point that over time this yeast grows and grows until one can hardly tell how to move. This is what a hidden works righteousness principle does and the key is it is hidden and implied even while a verbal affirmation of “faith alone†is made (James’s ENTIRE point). A principle of works righteousness shows itself over time as both explicit and implied spiritual pressure is made upon people. Slowly, they curve inward (original sin). As they curve inward they measure themselves and others spiritually pleasing to God (so they think) by these “lawsâ€. They become more and more closed off, less true fellowship as more and more “masks†and facades are worn. Simultaneously, they judge others. The judgments can be overt such as “I wonder if he/she is a Christian because they are or are not doing ________â€. Or more subtle, “Well it’s no ‘sin’ but the more spiritual Christian will do/don’t do _______â€. Right there they don’t see, their eyes are seared shut, the Gospel is gone and so is Christianity. Then the name “Christianity†becomes associated with these law measures or metrics, which is completely opposite of Christianity. Christianity is NOT a move from “vice to virtue†but from “virtue to graceâ€. Christ ONLY indwells REAL sinners, not pretend sinners and NOT the righteous (which is another way in Scripture of saying self-righteous). To put a sharp edge on it, either you are a real sinner or you have not Christ.
Luther said it similarly that all these superstitious manmade laws that have the ‘appearance of wisdom’ by fallen measure eventually make a man so scared that he panics at the very rustling of the leaves as if wrath is coming down upon him.
L
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Perhaps we should ask Nicholas straight up.
Is drinking alcohol unequivocally a sin? If so, when did it become a sin?
Also, is it possible that you yourself engage in activities that other Christians stricter than yourself consider sinful, such as playing cards, dancing, watching television, etc? If so, how do you answer their objections to your behavior?
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Nicholas,
This is crossing into the territory of the absurd. As the article that iMonk linked to at the very top of this post shows, wine and “strong drink” is something the Bible affirms as a good thing…something that even indicates God’s blessing or that He gave us to “gladden the heart.” Drinking hemlock? Come on. Why not take it to the most illogical extreme and just ask if we should gargle Drano for the sake of Christ?
You’re simply not thinking Biblically here. You are shoehorning your personal view into the Bible and like the ugly stepsister’s feet and the glass slipper, it doesn’t fit because in this case you’re not taking the whole of Scripture into account. You’re playing hopscotch with the Bible to hit on the loosely (at best) connected verses that you think bolster your case.
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I should have put this fine point on the abuser’s and abstainer’s common link: Both are seek life (and by extension eternal life) in what they are doing, that is to ‘put another god in front of god’ Who alone can give life. Both think in some way this “gives life to them”. Thus, the honed god in front of God. Both are also as the extension travels down the commands, a taking of God’s name in vain, since part of His name is Jesus and that name means “He will save His people from their sins” (eternal life); then it denies the keeping of the Fulfiller of the Sabbath and thus the Sabbath, that is resting in the Lord of the Sabbath Whose righteousness is imputed to us and gives us REST, what the Sabbath POINTED TO. Then pretty soon the abuser and abstainer are violating the later Table and not loving their neighbor, slandering them, bitting and nipping at them like wolves, gossiping over them, falsely accussing them, murdering them in their hearts and so forth for their “less spiritualness”.
The call to repent is a call from ALL that, stop trying to seek life by your own means and strength and nakedly trust in Christ alone so that it is literally finished and there’s NOTHING left for you to do.
That’s to be had by the Cross, owned by it, and that is faith.
L KY
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It’s not an issue of “hedonism†as some sophist and protestant Judiazers seeking out to crush our liberty in Christ would propose. And such accusations are merely a violation of the 9th commandment to not bear false witness against your neighbor by trying to play God (a violation of the first commandment) and “read the hearts and intents of a man’s heart. The issue is the Gospel. My wife has had MORE opportunities to present the faith regarding a glass of wine than any other means.
There are more ways than one to deny and hide the Gospel and deny Christ. And one of them is to pretend that “not drinking†is ANY one of the following: “sinâ€, “more holyâ€, “more matureâ€, “more spiritual†and the like. For such scream that Christ is not nearly enough.
Second, God gives good gifts. His creation, including ALL alcohol are good, He said so, it is man who sins and abuses it by religiously abstaining (doctrine of demons) or openly over indulging. At the end of the day both religious abstainers and open abusers are EXACTLY the same, both find, make and hone their god in the thing they abstain from or make abuse. Thus, violating the first commandment of “I am the Lord your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the Land of Bondage, you shall put no other gods in front of ME.†This is not often seen in the giddy concept of religiously abstaining. For the religious abstainer and the abuser have this in common and both, not just the later are obsessed with the same object. There is a dry drunk (the abstainer) and a wet drunk. We see this more easily concerning gluttony. C.S. Lewis makes this point very well. There’s the open glutton who is “socially†unacceptable. But then there’s the “dry†glutton, like say an Arnold S. or body builder or such. The later is JUST as much obsessed with food as is the former, one might even say more. But the later is socially acceptable according to the fallen religious wisdom of man, he/she appears to be successful at his/her works. And so men glory in them and spurn the open glutton (or drunk). A teetotaler is quite puffed up with his/her works and quite gloried in among the religious (even pretend Christianity), but his/her puffed up works will never stand before God’s holiness and he/she is in most danger of in reality, not hypothetically, being fallen from Christ (Paul’s point in Gal.).
Third, unbelieving societies abuse of things is NO guide whatsoever for the believer. Men abuse sex and women, should we head back to the whore of Babylon and stop marriage? Men worship the sun and the moon, should we abstain from looking upon them? Men abuse worship and worship false gods, should we end church? Food, gluttony, causes more death per year by far and large than alcohol every thought of, should we abstain from food or reduce it to merely tasteless calorie pills passed out by the fruit police? To abstain from a thing because it is abused only serves to promote the problem. A Christian who can moderate is a FAR greater witness of Christ for they must ask themselves, “How can he/she drink without the necessity to abuseâ€. The same with all kinds of things, TV, food, work, etc…
Fourth, those who reduce proper use to only those things of necessity like food and air deny God and Christ flat out. For God is not just a Creator of bland bare necessity (as Jesus clearly examples), that is Allah or Baal or Moloch. God creates good things that give JOY, like a good Father. Treat your children like a necessity Nazis and they will grow up to hate you.
“So called Hedonist arguments†are nothing but hidden bush traps best waived off as too puerile so as to deserve much attention and that are in fact guilty of what they accuse others of.
Finally, no one might understand that a man freed from the bondage of religious legalism might manifest fruit of the faith by enjoying wine or beer he/she heretofore denied themselves. A Mormon for example who drinks neither beer nor coffee is liberated by the grace of Christ from that demonic religion. He knows Christ alone is his righteousness. He then manifest this great joy in ordering a cup of coffee, guilt free, his conscience cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. Then he does the same over a beer. God and Christ are glorified, God is pleased because it was His Son’s blood that did that good work.
In the total sufficient imputed righteousness of Christ alone,
Larry KY
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As for the Methodists putting on ads like:
“The United Methodist Church: Where You Don’t Go To Hell for a Beer.â€
LOL. It was a Methodist doctor named Welch who invented the process of pasteurizing grape juice and stopping the fermentation in its tracks…making the Baptist non-alcoholic communion service (and in all fairness, the United Methodist version as well) possible.
Beer is another story and you’d be hardpressed to find a United Methodist that gave a rip…
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Ragamuffin
re; “And that involves no longer being ignorant that even alcoholic beverages fall under the category of “the earth is the Lord’s and everything in it†and it to be given thanks for, not superstitiously avoided as if that which a person puts into their themselves is sinful rather than that which comes out.â€
Would that include eating Kufu with your Japanese friend, having a drink of hemlock with Socrates over a discussion on philosophy, having a Coke laced with cocaine with a friend, enjoying a heroin poppy seed sandwich with a Chinese acquaintance, playing Russian roulette with your former Soviet comrade to show him how sufficient Christ is in such situations, or perhaps simply streaking through your village in the nude on a blustery day as the Doukabors and some early Quakers practiced? After all, isn’t that part of the package of Christian freedom? Doesn’t your Bible say;
Heb 12:1;
“… let us lay aside every weight…â€.
as well as;
Mar 16:18;
“They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.â€
Actually, the Bible not only teaches us to lay aside many things for the sake of our Christian brothers and sisters, but also not to tempt the Lord our God.
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It is my firm conviction that the primary responsibility of all Christian leaders is to train believers how to live their OWN lives under their OWN CONSCIENCES before God.
To do anything less is to deny the Church the ability to mature to the place where it can finally “build ITSELF up in love”.
Why then is alcohol use the big issue, when America has the highest incidence of morbid obescity of any nation in the world and nowhere in any denominational convention do we see the use of food being legislated against? But, according to US statistics, poor diet and physical inactivity cause almost 500% more deaths than alcohol consumption.
The actual figures are:
Poor diet and physical inactivity (400,000 deaths per year, or 16.6 percent of all deaths)
Alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths per year, or 3.5 percent of all deaths)
In fact, motor vehicle crashes constitute an average of 43,000 deaths in the US each year. Shouldn’t we then be outlawing GM? Maybe the Amish are onto something!
Further, if sexual behaviors cause 20,000 Americans to lose their lives each year, perhaps we should be legislating against sex between married adults. (Notice the stats don’t say aberrant or perverted sexual behaviour, just sexual behaviours in general).
Of course, all of those statistics change markedly if you are overweight and die of a heart attack while in the throes of sexual ecstasy with your wife in the back seat of your car .. but I digress ..
Regardless, Anton, our reason for challenging you are the same as yours are in challenging us. We are trying to be our brothers keepers by rescuing more people from coming under the bondage that legislated morality always leads to.
You see, legislated morality is a manifestation of fear deceptively clothed in righteousness. And it empowers weakness and spiritual immaturity.
Those who vehemently fight against the thing they fear usually do so because they have either been delivered from it and are freaked out about returning to it, or they still secretly struggle with it ..
.. but that is no reason to impose their personal conscience on the general body.
It is, however, a very good reason to bring their struggle into the light and to get help.
Grace and peace!
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Millions of people are addicted to some kind of sexual sin. Causing untold damage to families and society. And the bible has far more warnings about sex than alcohol. Shall we also abstain from sex? Statistics don’t trump scripture.
People in the bible drank alcohol because they liked it. You can talk all day about using it to purify water but you don’t get that from scripture. (I don’t deny that it might be true) They liked it. And they thanked God for it. And God told them it was one of His blessings. And yes, people sometimes overdid it. And God told them not to.
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Anton,
I quote the Bible and give verse references. You quote statistics without giving us links or references as to where they’re from.
I think wine is a blessing from God (as per Psalm 104). You liken it to not washing your hands before eating.
Let me outline this quickly for you:
According to the Bible:
* Not drinking alcohol is okay.
* Drinking alcohol without getting drunk is okay.
* Drinking alcohol and getting drunk is not okay.
According to you:
* Not drinking alcohol is essential.
* Drinking alcohol is sinful.
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As someone pointed out earlier (God bless this person abundantly!) all of this is based on free will. Free will is based on the notion that when all is said and done, a person still has to make up her/his own mind about how s/he behaves. Mankind’s covenant with God is first and foremost a covenant based on free will. That is, we must be free to decide how we are to behave ON OUR OWN. Good intentions be damned, nobody has the right to make up his mind for someone else.
Rejecting someone over such a trivial matter smacks liberally of “I thank you, God, that I am not like that tax collector over there.”
I don’t feel like judging anyone. I’m not big enough to fill God’s britches, nor do I have any particular desire to try. As worthy a compendium as it is, the Holy Bible isn’t the last word of God; the last word has yet to be written.
Anyone here familiar with a book called Das Energi, by Paul Williams (not the singer)? I recommend it heartily. One line out of it, which I wish I could remember better (the copy of the book I had was lost by a friend) went something to the effect of this:
“Don’t think you know what’s best for the next guy. He might just think he knows what’s best for you.”
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Isn’t it something how things have changed so much that now the folks who dare to be against drinking are considered to be the nutjobs?
It’s not a change. People who are against drinking have always been nutjobs. 🙂
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I’m late coming to this little party, and to be honest I don’t really want to engage in the main point. I just want to share my favorite quip that fits more at the beginning than the end of the comments.
“Whenever 4 Presbyterians gather together, there’s always a fifth.”
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I find it interesting that every argument that’s proffered for believers abstaining from alcohol takes the tone that it is what “mature” believers should do. Implied in that is the converse: that only immature or self-centered Christians would continue to drink in moderation once given the statistics and arguments about causing a brother to stumble. Usually the passages from Corinthians and Romans are brought up and applied to our modern day taboos and issues with alcohol.
However, in those passages the Apostle Paul’s concern was not that the weaker brother would merely be “offended” or “distressed” but that the weaker brother would be scandalized, i.e. encouraged to sin and/or violate his own conscience. Only by encouraging a brother to sin or violate his own conscience could you “make another stumble” and “destroy the one for whom Christ died.”
The specific example Paul uses makes this clear: meat sacrificed to idols. If a weaker brother concludes from your eating that he may either worship idols and/or violate his (weak) conscience, then you have harmed your brother.
It is also worthwhile to note that the weaker brother is actually called “weaker” and “ignorant.” This is important. Just as we must not encourage the weaker brother to sin or to violate his conscience, we must also not allow him to remain weak and ignorant. Paul is not suggesting that Christian behavior should be held hostage to the ignorant. The weaker brother, like all of us, must grow up. We also have an obligation to educate him regarding the truth about idols, namely “that ‘an idol has no real existence,’ and that ‘there is no God but one.'” Then he too will be able to eat the meat without sinning.
We must also understand the context in which these passages were written. This will help explain why it was easier to cause real scandal in Paul’s time & location than it is in our own.
Christianity was brand new on the scene in Paul’s day, and newly opened to Gentiles, so Gentile inquirers and new converts were not very familiar with what Christians actually believed. Christianity is a foreign worldview to them.
In these circumstances, it would be very easy for a new Gentile convert or inquirer to see you eating meat and, knowing that the meat had been sacrificed to an idol, conclude to himself “Oh, so it must be OK for Christians to worship the old gods too! Praise Aries, Aphrodite, and Jesus!” That’s real scandal.
We must also consider the situation of early Jewish converts. A staunch Jew would never eat meat sacrificed to idols. Even if the meat wasn’t associated with paganism, it would not be kosher. A new and therefore weak or ignorant Jewish convert or inquirer to Christianity might not yet understand the Christian’s liberty to eat such unkosher food. But if you really cajoled and pressured him, he might eat it in violation of his conscience. That would be real scandal too.
It is much more difficult to truly scandalize people, as Paul explains it, in our own day and age.
No one who’s grown up with any significant exposure to the Christian faith could reasonably conclude from your behavior, for example, that pagan polytheism is acceptable among Christians. Even non-Christians know we are monotheists who don’t allow worship Thor, Osiris, or Siva. But if you find yourself living among people who know so little of Christian doctrine and morality, do be attentive so you can avoid giving scandal.
It is also unlikely, for better or worse, that you will find someone with a conscience too narrow or delicate for Christian liberty. So many in our culture have lax consciences. But even if you do find one, e.g. a new convert from Hinduism who’s still touchy about beef, you can avoid scandal simply by not pressuring him to violate his conscience on the matter. Don’t order him a steak, and don’t cajole him to eat a bite of yours, until he is fully convinced that he may eat steak without sinning. This way you can avoid giving scandal.
Similarly with drinking, though it is in no way associated with worshipping pagan gods to the vast majority of Americans, should not be something you force on someone who does not drink and thinks it sinful to do so. You shouldn’t pressure or cajole them to violate their conscience and go ahead and drink while they are still troubled by it. HOWEVER, it is your Christian duty to help your brother or sister understand Scripture better and to have a properly formed Christian conscience. And that involves no longer being ignorant that even alcoholic beverages fall under the category of “the earth is the Lord’s and everything in it” and it to be given thanks for, not superstitiously avoided as if that which a person puts into their themselves is sinful rather than that which comes out.
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It would seem to me that the supposed concept of Christian freedom as expressed by the responders to this page, seems to be more a form of unbridled, unabridged personal hedonism rather than Christian freedom. More a freedom to do whatever I DESIRE, irrespective of its consequences on others, than to do what Christ desires and to be my “brother’s keeperâ€. More to be free outside of, alongside of, rather than free IN Christ. If I were to regulate myself according to my knowledge of what Christ taught and my social conscience, I would not be free to follow my hedonist ways, would I? It seems to me, like many FASD patients, who are the product of alcoholism, many advocates of social drinking tend to lack a social conscience as well.
What most responders on this page do not seem to understand in their shots at my statements is that I never advocated the legislation of abstinence from liquor. I simply advocated Christian responsibility as expressed by the individual, the church, and the entire church conference. Because of the problems that alcohol presents in our society, not only to those who consume it but to those damaged by it through no fault of their own, I am obligated to suggest the putting aside of habitual social drinking, for the benefit of my brothers and sisters in Christ. By “habitualâ€, I am referring to something that is done and accepted as normative, rather than something exceptional over which one is occasionally forced to make a wise decision. For instance, washing one’s hands before a meal should be normative. Not washing them should be exceptional. To legislate the use of liquor as unacceptable in every situation is not wise. However, to strongly discourage its use as an acceptable social beverage within our society, is wise! Why? Here are some statistics from a country in which social drinking is normative;
… drink is the third greatest cause of avoidable deaths in France.” … alcohol was directly responsible for 23,000 deaths a year in France, and indirectly responsible for a further 22,000.
“A third of all custodial sentences in this country, half of all domestic violence, a third of all handicaps are due to alcohol,” he said. “One French person in 10 is ill as a result of alcohol, and every day five French people die after an accident linked to alcohol.” … 5 million drank too much, and 2 million were dependent on alcohol.
The healthcare system was incapable of dealing with the plague. In greater Paris there were 245 hospital beds in specialist departments for alcohol-related problems, compared with more than 550,000 confirmed alcoholics… …the “enormous strength and economic clout” of the alcohol lobby, where MPs leap to the defense of an industry that employs 500,000 people.
A French study has found that in the land of Burgundy and Bordeaux, which boasts a low heart disease risk, despite a high fat diet, the total cost of alcohol use and abuse beats tobacco and illicit drugs.â€
“Approximately 78% of Canadians consult a physician each year. Of these 6% are heavily dependent on alcohol, and up to 25% have or are at risk for alcohol-related health problems. About 10% of premature death in Canada is caused by hazardous drinking, and more than 50% of fatal traffic accidents involve alcohol. The health, social and economic costs of alcohol abuse may be as high as $8.6 billion, of which $1.3 billion is spent on direct health care costs.â€
Of course the US of A is exempt from such problems, or is it?
James states; Jas 2:18;
“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.â€
Every social drinker contributes to the above problem, therefore social drinking should not be normative among believers.
What faith do you and I show by promoting social drinking among believers in our society?
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Anyawy, guys, do you realize that this issue is now almost uniquely an American (maybe “anglo-saxon”?) one?
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PS: I meant “friend” not fiend.
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Kerry,
A fiend of mine and I were discussing this, he’s presently non-SB baptist, I use to be. There’s two legalisms in this and similar arguments:
1. Is the obvious drinking is a sin, or somehow you are less spiritual non-sense (ala P. Patterson).
2. If you don’t drink you prove you are not in the faith.
In reality its a non-issue, Pauls warning of the kingdom of heaven not being about food or drink cuts both ways.
If you drink a beer, wine, whiskey, drink it because you like it and for joy, only remember your strength in the “how much” and that varies from person to person. If you don’t drink because you simply don’t like the taste, much like I don’t like the taste of milk, then do so simply because you just don’t like its flavor. Enjoy if you like, enjoy if you don’t.
If you do drink and you can enjoy the company of a brother that doesn’t, then enjoy each other and vice versa.
I was with my brotherinlaw who is a SB pastor once, he loves a good cigar, I particularly don’t care for them just because I don’t no spiritual reason. But for christmas I got him some good ones. He offered me one on the porch that Christmas in the cool of the day. It was wonderful for once, just two Christian brothers, and brothers by marriage just enjoying each other’s company and the moment of the day – no pretense – no judgmental spirit – no “I need to put on my mask of piety”. Just plain simple enjoyment of each other over that time period.
THAT is missing in the church today!!!
Larry KY
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Kerry,
That was great!
Larry ky
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Anton,
I’m a Christian. I drink alcohol. I’ve never been drunk.
Psalm 104 says that God gave me wine to gladden my heart.
Deuteronomy 14.26 shows that God allowed the fermentation of drinks other than wine to be consumed by Israelites.
In John 2, Jesus turned water into wine. He didn’t magically add wine to water. The wine was so nice that the guests at the wedding were very pleased, so the taste was quite discernible.
As for me, Anton, I follow what the Bible says. If you want to contradict the Word of God or add to it, just realise God won’t be happy.
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Tmac,
I sure hope that God can use us. I know that I am far from being perfect. (And I do agree that we frequently major in the minors.)
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Hi Anna,
I too have a deep concern regarding legalism (as should we all). My copmments were was based on how many times I’ve encoutnered two groups of people in regards to Christians and alcohol.
Group One utilizes ridiculous, interpretive gymnastics to proclaim abstience as the only Biblical standard possible.
Group Two consisting of those who seem to be looking for a fight or at least hoping to get a rise out of me when they speak of their drinking habits.
Neither side gets a very sympathetic hearing from me.
I’ll say a hearty, “Amen” to the criticism of those who decry alcohol use while practicing it behind closed doors or on vacation (where they think no one will see them). Hypocrisy stinks! Of course, hypocrisy isn’t limited merely to those who preach against alcohol. I especially hate it when I see it in the mirror.
I have often wondered where the SBC would stand today on many issues had her origins been in Napa Valley as opposed to Tobacco Row.
With that being said, MBC is going to be an anti-alcohol group for a long time. She is also going to be anti-cloning, anti-gambling, anti-abortion. However, she is also encouraging missions partnerships in El Salvador, Colorado, and to the Kurdish people. Who knows, some may even come to know Christ through the cooperative efforts of this parachurch organization linking congregations together for the Kingdom. I wonder if God can actually use flawed, faltering, non-perfect people banded together for His purposes??????
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Hi, Tmac,
Let me share my interpretation of some of the earlier comments. I don’t really hear bragging on the part of those who do drink adult beverages, but either a sad sigh or hurt over the legalism involved.
I do share their concern over the legalism, because that is one of the more popular ways of Christians hurting Christians.
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Having actually attended and participated in this year’s MBC (as I have for the past 13 years I’ve pastored in the MO), I once again stand amazed at the things which catch people’s attention, get their blood boiling, and start the neighbors chattering over the proverbial back fence.
That this one, non-binding resolution, becomes the topic of such spirited debate while the election of a slate of officers who have a desire to lessen the choke hold of legalism on the MBC so that we can get back to the business of evangelism, church planting, discipleship, and strengthening existing churches is a bit puzzling to me.
In many ways, the “tone of voice” I hear from the proponents of alcohol use is not much different than the tone of those speaking so vehemently against alcohol use last week.
I’m having a hard time differentiating between those who brag because they don’t drink vs. those who brag because they do. Admittedly, it may be more a matter of they way I’m hearing or reading the comments than what people are actually saying.
I’m new at this blogging thing, so I probably need to learn how to read between the lines a bit more. Just thought I”d put in my two-cents. If I’m going to read these blog things I ought to particpate in the discussion from time to time.
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Quoting Nicolas Anton:
“Be careful how you use statistics”
and then,
“Ellen Sorokin, THE WASHINGTON TIMES An estimated 1,400 college students die each year and another 500,000 are injured in alcohol-related accidents, according to a National Institutes of Health study released yesterday. The study also estimates that alcohol consumption by college students contributes to 70,000 cases of sexual assaults or date rape annually.â€
I too can toss around numbers to support my case. I too can find cultural differences in today that differ from Biblical culture and thus paint my position as truer and more sane. But if I did, I would be dwelling on trivial irrelevancies because I would be avoiding the heart of the issue: SIN(alcohol misuse and related rape, car accidents, etc) is not eradicated by abstinence from behaviors. It is eradicated by the Cross. Therefore, prevent drinking and you have a world full of destructive, lustful, violent, criminally negligent and yes, very SOBER people. A handy mechanism for people who are mainly interested in a very holy-LOOKING Christendom.
If you want the pseudo-kingdom many Christians build that is marked by well-scrubbed appearances and complete lack of honesty, continue trying to frantically manage the world into a righteousness defined the by the personal whim of the moment.
But if you are tired of Christian fakery and sin-management, preach Jesus and the cross please, not behavior reform, and join Him in the Kingdom that marked by having a right SPIRIT as well as right BEHAVIOR.
It’s a difficult path to give up your objections to everyone else’s sin. But it’s the path of the Cross, and it’s the only path to the Kingdom.
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I like the Norwegians. Always a good sense of humor…
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Perhaps it is coming from the home of Beer and Brandy, but our Pastor does not frown on moderate drinking (SBC, Wisconsin)
In fact, there is a group of us that are known for going golfing, smoking cigars and having a couple of beers afterwords.
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Hey guys,
I roared laughing at the earliest comments but became more and more disappointed the more I read on .. and here’s my reason why: no-one has yet made mention of the fruit of the Spirit that is “self-control”.
The moment we legislate morality, self-control can no longer be exercised because the right to choose is removed from us.
God alone legislates morality. Why is it then that we spend so much time shouting about the things He’s whispering, and all the while we’re whispering about the very things He’s shouting!?!
Romans 14 says two very interesting things on this matter.
1) “.. the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.”
2) “..whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves.
What I hear Paul saying is “don’t get hung up on the finer details but go after God’s Kingdom first and foremost” and “if you choose to do drink (or eat meat sacrificed to idols etc), do it discretely so that others won’t condemn you”.
By way of illustration, I was at a lunch meeting with a Norwegian Pastor. When the waitress came to take our drinks order, I jokingly pointed to the beer special and said “I’ll have two!”.
He went on to ask whether ministers in Australia drank alcohol. I replied that some do and some don’t and that their position mostly depended on their faith tradition rather than the Scriptures.
Well, his answer blew me away! With a twinkle in his eye, he said, “yes, we Norwegians thought that you Australian pastors who do not drink were weak of faith”!
Ouch! But what a spectacular answer!!
And that was Paul’s point. To argue that you should or shouldn’t drink, or eat meat sacrificed to idols etc etc, is to demonstrate that you are weak of faith. But the one strong in faith is the one who has developed the fruit of self-control and has no need of vain arguments.
In closing, my friend Graham Cooke was once challenged on his drinking of wine while with a group of Pastors from Georgia. He was asked why he would sin by drinking. To which he replied, “why would you sin by being 100lb overweight for your height?”
That same Pastor, realising his hyprocracy, went away and demonstrated self-control by losing 120lb over the next six months!
Self-control is a much more important issue and one about which the Bible has MUCH to say.
Grace and peace!
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If children are brought up with the responsible use of alcohol the chances are much less they will end up abusing alcohol.
Have we learned nothing from Prohibition? Apparently not. Look at the failed war on drugs. In Los Angeles, right now, today, there are streets lined with drug dealers flagging down cars to sell any drug you can think of.(Check out skid row or the neighborhoods around MacArthur Park) They are literally drive through pharmacies. The Mexican army fights pitched battles with drug cartels just yards from our borders. The murder,corruption and graft caused by the profits of the drug trade have penetrated our law enforcement organizations and some politicians. Alcohol prohibition gave rise to so much violence and corruption that it was repealed. Prohibition only exascerbates the situation. Its not the job of Christians to go around and make sure unbelievers don’t sin. Furthermore, the apostle Paul states ” If you have died with Christ.. why do you submit yourselves to decrees such as ‘Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!’…These are matters, which to be sure, have the appearance of wisdom in self made religion… but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.” Col.2:20-23 There are better ways to handle alcohol and drugs and the problems they may cause than to worry about someone somewhere abusing them at sometime, and binding all our concsiences to that burden, which is impossible to carry. I worry when the Scriptures are reduced to ‘principles’ then ‘applied IN OUR SOCIETY’,- thats how the church goes wrong. Its bad theology, bad practice and makes for a church centered on something other than the Gospel.
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One issue highlighted in several of the comments here is the danger of young people binge drinking. It is much less the case in Europe, especially Italy, were there is no minimum age for alcohol consumption. Whereasdrunk students have been a phenomenon throughout history, it seems to be much more the case now, especially in North America. I have a strong suspicion that it is a cultural construct, flowing from a combination of events, one of which was the advent of prohibitionism.
The culture often construes the drinking habits of the people, and where the culture does not run deep, limitations are often transgressed. This is obvious in all frontier cultures, such as the Old West, Gold rushes the world over, (Barberton, the Klondike, the Australian goldrushes etc) and other events. It is also evident in the dying throws of a culture, such as Rome.
And as an aside, the Israelites were told to celebrate with wine AND strong drink, both which were seen as part of their offerings.
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While moderate drinking may not physically harm you personally, is it worth the risk in our society?
Be careful how you use statistics, or the fact that most people in Jesus’ day used wine. Many factors have changed.
1) Wine is no longer needed to purify water.
2) Fortified liquors did not exist in Jesus’ day.
3) Most wines were diluted in Jesus’ day.
4) Use of liquors as a beverage has been frowned upon by the Evangelical church for centuries. (Why change it)
5) High speed vehicles did not dominate the roadways in Christ’s time.
Again, look at the death and deprivation that alcohol has and is causing in our society. Therefore, why entice those who might not be able to handle liquor by your example? Yes, we have freedom in Christ, but we also have responsibility, and Christ will hold us responsible for our example. In three places in Scripture Jesus has been quoted as saying, Mat 18:6
“But whoso shall OFFEND one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.â€
According to Strong, “offend†means;
To “scandalizeâ€; from G4625; to entrap, that is, trip up (figuratively stumble [transitively] or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure): – (make to) offend.
It might be time for the millstone manufacturers to go back into business.
Someone on the net has stated;
“The bottom line? If you don’t drink, don’t start. If you drink excessively, stop. And if you drink moderately, you may continue to raise your glass and proclaim…†to my health!â€
May I add, “don’t by your freedoms entice another to start.” While moderate drinking may not harm you personally, it will set an example for those who follow you. Statistically, the risk of problem drinking is quite high for those who drink. Look at one statistic;
“Ellen Sorokin, THE WASHINGTON TIMES An estimated 1,400 college students die each year and another 500,000 are injured in alcohol-related accidents, according to a National Institutes of Health study released yesterday. The study also estimates that alcohol consumption by college students contributes to 70,000 cases of sexual assaults or date rape annually.â€
Why take the risk.
I will repeat; “… though the Bible does not speak specifically against social drinking, the principles as taught by Jesus Christ when applied IN OUR SOCIETY will ultimately lead to the abolition of social drinking and smoking.â€
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“It makes my complaint odd, since I’m advocating for a freedom I don’t personally have.â€
Chris & KW Leslie, if I might split hairs with you both, I would contend that you DO have the freedom; you just choose not to exercise it.
And might I add that while I also abstain, I don’t get any brownie points or higher standing with God for doing so. That whole freedom-in-Christ thing…
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I remember having to step around guys in the bathroom the next morning who were dry heaving. I just didn’t get why they thought they were having a good time. — Richard Hershberger
Have you ever seen the classic Bill Cosby tape/DVD “Bill Cosby: Himself”? In it, there’s a sequence where he describes “drinking yourself sick” in great & gruesome detail (including “You are about to put your face… into a place… that was never meant to hold your face”) until “You would not be surprised to see your SHOES coming up into the toilet-bowl”.
After ten minutes of such gruesome detail, he caps the sequence with “This is called — Having a Good Time.”
P.S. I have found one college subculture that doesn’t go for binge drinking: D&D gamers. They’ve got their own problems, but spending three days a week falling-down-drunk like the “cool crowd” isn’t one of them.
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I remember the day where one of my good Southern Baptist friends suggested I should go to one of their seminaries in the US.
It was a nice way to encourage a national worker, but the stance of the denomination on alcohol was enough to prevent me from even considering the option…
Well, now, I am a very happy, poor and free Lutheran vicar…God must have had other plans 😉
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I’m a new Southern Baptist — 9 months now. The older portion of my congregation believes drinking is okay and the younger portion believes it is not okay — which is the opposite of what I would have expected. If we couldn’t “agree to disagree”, we would cease to exist as a congregation. There are hundreds of issues Christians can disagree over — yet we all are Christians because of Christ. That’s what is important! The main reason my nonChristian friends give for rejecting God is how much we fight with each other. How God’s heart must ache over His family of squabbling children.
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“It makes my complaint odd, since I’m advocating for a freedom I don’t personally have.”
K.W. Leslie, I’m in the same boat with you. I don’t drink but have no problem with Christians who do. I’m a member of a Baptist message board (NOT the Fightin Fundamentalists) and debates about alcohol go on for pages and pages (the most recent one lasted 45 pages until the moderator had enough of the debate). The claims that are made in the debates are ludicrous.
My favorite part of the debate is when the teetotalers say that the word “wine” in Proverbs means “wine”, but the “wine” in Matthew and 2 Timothy doesn’t really mean “wine”. It makes zero sense.
I think I need a drink.
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It’s funny that you talk about your best times of fellowship being over a bourbon, Patrick. I’ve shared my faith in varying levels of detail and length to a lot of people over the last 20 years. Sometimes it was in school, sometimes at work, sometimes at a social gathering or over dinner.
But of all the times, the best time where it was the most natural, where the person listening was the most engaged and interested and asked the most follow up questions was over a couple of beers after work. I’d been working at a retail establishment during the Christmas season and had sort of hit it off with a coworker who had a similar sense of humor and so on. After I’d been there a few weeks, he asked me if I’d like to go grab a beer after work that night and I accepted.
Once we sat down, he began to talk about the job and the people we worked with and then pointed out that he appreciated how I wasn’t like most of the guys we worked with who were always putting people down, making sexual comments about every good-looking woman who came in the door, and acting like their little group was the only “cool group” there. I thanked him and he asked a few more questions and I began to tell him a little about how I was several years before when I wasn’t a Christian. That just prompted more questions and we talked for about 2 hours that night over Sam Adams. I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, but I remember that he was really intrigued though not ready to make any such commitment himself yet.
We lost touch after he moved out of town and then moved from the address he gave me a few months later. But I can tell you, that opportunity would have been lost if I had refused to go to a bar and I doubt he would have felt the same level of comfort to ask all those questions if I hadn’t been willing to share a beer with him or made some big deal out of not believing that it was right to drink.
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One more reason why I could not be part of a SBC church if I lived in America.
Anyway, I’ve known a bunch of SBC missionaries working in Europe. How many do you think really do follow the guidelines of their denomination?
Sordid evangelical hypocrisy. So glad I am out of all that…
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That joke about taking two Baptists fishing because they won’t drink your beer is truly funny.
Some of the best times of my life have been spent fellowshipping with other Christians over fine Kentucky straight bourbon(Maker’s Mark is my first choice) and a good cigar, talking theology and bearing one another’s burdens. When we all get together our fist toast is to baptism -” To that washing that declares us blameless and pure, that will cause us to stand without shame on that Day..”
My wife says that the aroma of whiskey and cigar smoke is exhilarating.
I understand issues of conscience, and if other Christians wish to abstain, that is their right in Christ. I also ask that they do not bind me with their conscience or elevate personal conviction to the level of the Word of God. We can share a drink and have a good laugh when we meet at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb.
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Responding to the two Matts, P & A:
I too have my first child on the way. A real worry is the young adult culture of excess. In its most extreme form this is the person who walks into a bar on his 21st birthday, downs 21 shots, and drops dead from alcohol poisoning. More common is binge drinking: parties where the expectation is that the participants will drink until they vomit.
I come from a culture that accepts moderate drinking. As a teenager, if there was wine at dinner (not normal, but not extraordinarily rare in my household) I would have half a glass. And in church real wine at communion was normal, with me taking it from about age 14 or so. The happy result is that when I went off to college, alcohol was not some mystical rite of manhood for me. I sometimes drank, but not to excess. I remember having to step around guys in the bathroom the next morning who were dry heaving. I just didn’t get why they thought they were having a good time.
So what to do with the child? Teach her, when she is old enough for this to be appropriate, that moderate drinking is fine but to beware of excess. In this, alcohol is no different from any number of other things.
Which brings me to the idea that drunkeness is bad, so avoid alcohol entirely. Gossip is bad, so should we never speak? This is not an empty comparison. There are religious traditions that do just that. Gluttony is bad. Does this mean we should eat only barely enough to survive? And so on. The logic of this just doesn’t work.
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It seems to me that the “principle” of Paul’s teaching on not causing another to stumble is an “absolute” in each and every situation.
However, the “application” of Paul’s principle seems to me to be relative to the situation the Christian finds himself or herself in.
Therefore, to impose an “absolute application” on other believers [no matter what situation they are in] is to cross the line in imposing a law upon others that is not a part of the law of Christ it seems to me.
I think this issue boils down to one thing–Are Christians under the law of Christ or under the law of Christ PLUS some other law(s)?
I say Christians are under the law of Christ.
P E R I O D
One might could put it this way:
If you, as an absolute abstainer from alcohol, have not caused another to stumble, then you have not sinned against Christ.
If you, as a social drinker, have not cause another to stumble, then you have not sinned against Christ.
I seriously would like to see someone challenge those two sentences immediately above this sentence.
If you are going to be all big and bad about alcohol being “worldly” or a “sin”, then prove your point.
And if you can’t prove your point, then be humble enough to get out of the way of being part of the hindering force that keeps people from hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ.
And if the social drinkers cause people to stumble, then that will be on them.
Not you.
Grace
BCR
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At our monthly Men’s Breakfast on Saturday at my little SBC the subject of alcohol did not rear its head. On the other hand though, it was determined that all the prblems in the world today can be attributed to those “Catholics” and homosexuals. Imagine if I had introduced the topic of alcohol. Hilarity would have ensued above and beyond the above tragedy.
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I’ve spent half my life in SBC churches, and grew up in a home where I saw moderate and excessive alcohol consumption.
I think Matt P. is on to something in his household discussions. Is it beneficial to prohibit and condemn drinking so strongly? What do our children learn from this?
A summary of last Sunday’s sermon in my church is “a little sin leads to a lot of sin.” Thus, if drunkeness is sinful, don’t drink at all. But it seems to me that the average person can look around and see that most of the sinners around him are not drunkards, compulsive gamblers, or gluttonous thieves.
Unfortunately, we’ve found in our congregation that the response of a sizeable group of young people has been to not only reject the prohibitionist stances they have grown up with but to also embrace alcoholic consumption that goes beyond the bounds of moderation.
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Nicholas,
You said “Though the Bible does not speak specifically against slavery, the principles as taught by Jesus Christ will ultimately lead to the freedom of all slaves.
Likewise, though the Bible does not speak specifically against social drinking, the principles as taught by Jesus Christ when applied in our society will ultimately lead to the abolition of social drinking and smoking.”
Could you provide your exegesis for both your assertion on slavery and your assertion on social drinking.
Grace
BCR
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Hey I’m all for strong drink. Especially if it comes in the form of single malt scotch!
When I became a Christian, or at least a protestant version of one, the group I was around didn’t much go for drinking. It took me many years to see how this constricted view of life applied to almost everything they did. Books, music, art, food, money, everything. I found it to be a faith of negation, and extremely unattractive. Yet I wasn’t giving up the Christian faith. Fortunately I came across someone who introduced me to the Reformed tradition, which was much less hung up.
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How ironic that I found this today. Yesterday evening in church, we were informed that Nehemiah most certainly didn’t serve real wine to the king, and by the way, Jesus didn’t drink alcohol either, you wineheads. (Not sure what a winehead is.) And it was our night for the Lord’s Supper, too (first in four months, naturally). *sigh*…
So here I am with my newfound understanding of what the Bible (doesn’t) say about alcohol, and hoping the issue doesn’t come up with my family or my church. I don’t drink–my wife’s still uncomfortable with the idea; I have no idea what I could tolerate, even if I desired to drink; and I’m frankly at a loss as to how one would go about acquiring a comfort level with moderate drinking. With my first child on the way, I’m also a bit unsure how to help my kids know how to deal with this…it’s not likely they’ll be exposed to alcohol in our home. How do kids learn whether they need to avoid the stuff because they have a tendency to abuse it? Such has been the conversation in our house over the past few months.
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Flat out, I’ve seen Geisler’s study and others who took a similar stance on wine in the Bible. I think he’s wrong to make the distinction between wine and strong drink. The issue with consuming alcohol is being drunk just as the issue with consuming food is gluttony and the issue with watching TV or movies is viewing inappropriate programs and the issue with taking painkillers is becoming addicted to them and the issue with…well, you get the idea.
It is clear that wine and beer were things that could get one drunk from Scripture as we are told not to be “drunk with wine,” so however strong it was in terms of percentage of alcohol content (no one really knows for sure), it was a beverage that apparently people became drunk on if used to excess. I no more plan to abstain from alcohol based on its potential for abuse than I am to start expecting the church to prescribe specific caloric intakes for its members or ban the viewing of television.
We’ve got to stop turning good things that God gave us into man-made taboos.
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Do we have a newe covenant of not? Is John 2 in the Bible? Is that wine in the LS or are we Muslims? — Internet Monk
IMonk, have you ever noticed that when Christianity goes sour it starts resembling Islam?
And does anyone on this list know how Welch’s Grape Juice really got started? Reverend Welch was one of the major “Temperance” (i.e. Prohibition i.e. Teetotaling) preachers of his day, and when he discovered how to pasteurize & preserve non-alcoholic grape juice, he made a lot of scratch on the side selling Certified Non-Alcoholic Grape Juice for teetotaler Communions.
Speaking of Teetotaling, doesn’t tea contain caffiene (“Low end of the speed spectrum” which gives you withdrawal headaches) as well as trace amounts of other plant alkaloids?
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What I find interesting are the rationalizations for why, when the Bible speaks approvingly of wine, we should understand that it doesn’t actually refer to wine. We must, we are told, understand the culture of Biblical days and put the scriptural texts in context, realizing that the modern context is different and so we must interpret and adapt scripture to the modern context. Oddly, this seems only to apply to discussions of alcohol. To apply it to anything else is rank heresy, twisting the plain words to mean what you want them to mean. Yup: we wouldn’t want any of that!
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I was “converted” from teetotalism when I was in my 20’s.
Mr Anton: Anything can be abused. Why, since abuse is a problem, has the eating of say junkfood, drinking of soda etc not been banned by the same churches? The bible has much to say about gluttony as well. You know how many people die, and are influenced by overeating? how much it costs the US economy?
No, I’m not advocating the banning of anything (except McDonalds..lol). But arguments based on the misuse of anything will have us all abandon cars, the internet, etc etc.
I can’t remember which of the church fathers it was (somebody help?), but he recommended that any body whose conscience was troubled by the use of alcohol, should not be preaching the gospel.
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I watched in wonder earlier this decade when the Missouri Baptist Convention stopped funding Wiliam Jewell College (my alma mater and that of my pastor great-grandfather), the oldest Baptist institution of higher learning in the state, for teaching evolution in its biology classes. Growing up Missouri Baptist, with familial ties to 3 or 4 regions in the state, I am always fascinated by what the powers-that-be decide they can or cannot live with. I remember the campaign against gambling in the early 1980s, calling the lottery “flim-flam;” oddly enough I do not remember a similar campaign when riverboat gambling appeared.
Of course, I am biased; I left the SBC in the early 1990s when the annual convention passed a resolution stating my salvation was dependent on who I slept with. I am now in leadership in a UCC church, preaching pulpit supply, and thanking God for the opportunity.
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I am a Southern Baptist minister in MO, and attended some but not all of the convention. My opinion is that drinking is not the root problem, it is just a byproduct of the real problem. The real problem is modern day Pharisseeism.
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“Likewise, though the Bible does not speak specifically against social drinking, the principles as taught by Jesus Christ when applied in our society will ultimately lead to the abolition of social drinking and smoking.”
Are you saying that the Messiah is gonna have to run bootleg when He returns?…
Luk 22:18 For I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God shall come.
This is just like Dostoevsky’s parable of the Grand Inquisitor. As soon as Christ returns, His church will promptly have Him arrested on several accounts.
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In attending a conservative seminary, I at first thought an anti-drinking stance was fine even if I didn’t share it. That was until they openned their mouths to explain it. When they were asked in a meeting to defend it, they characterized it as “a higher moral principle” to which my mind immediately thought: Well, since Jesus drank (John 2, Luke 7:34, Matt 11:19), and by not drinking for a higher moral life, we in fact can consider ourselves more moral than Jesus. Slightly dangerous.
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Though the Bible does not speak specifically against slavery, the principles as taught by Jesus Christ will ultimately lead to the freedom of all slaves.
Likewise, though the Bible does not speak specifically against social drinking, the principles as taught by Jesus Christ when applied in our society will ultimately lead to the abolition of social drinking and smoking.
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In a village six miles from where we live, just four miles from the US border, there stands a pub, owned and operated by the same proprietors from when I was a child. For most of it’s life, it was a men’s joint. Entertainment was male based. It’s customers were male.
On its premises, people were introduced to and induced to lusting, inappropriate behavior, fights. People would enter its premises and leave in a worse condition than when they had entered. Some entered with hard earned money to feed and cloth their family and left drunk with only a hangover to show for what they had. Others had accidents. Still others lost their drivers license because of drunken driving.
Then, because they were forbidden to drive their automobiles, they drove their tractors for their daily drink, and returned home drunk. They drove when it was rainy. They drove when the sun shone brightly. They drove when it was cold and snowing. They had to have their daily fix.
One cold winter night, one of these neighborhood drunks drove off of the ruts in the road with his 44 Massey Harris tractor and got stuck. Because he was too drunk to get to the nearest neighbor, he froze to death, and all because he had a first drink. Hardly a ripple was heard in the community.
The Pub continued to operate as usual. Money continued to flow in while misery, broken lives and death flowed out. The Catholics didn’t care. The Orthodox didn’t care. The Lutherans didn’t care. The Evangelical Christians used to care.
Please don’t tell people of your Christian freedoms when those freedoms have bound millions. When they have been the cause of abuse, rape, fights, broken homes, death and deprivation. Please tell them of Christ instead, WHO SAVES FROM LIQUOR BUT NOT FROM ITS EFFECTS. The next time you think of social drinking consider that your sons and daughters might be its next victims.
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Here goes:
1. The Bible never divides the Old Testament law into moral/civil/ceremonial law. Therefore, Christians have no business dividing it up either.
2. Paul makes clear he is not under the law of Moses, but under the law of Christ–1 Cor. 9:20-21. [found in the New Testament]
3. Based off of #1 & #2, all appeals to old testament teaching for the total abstinence position are without merit.
4. In the New Testament, the total abstinence standard for John the Baptist was “particularly” for John the Baptist [a Nazarite standard if I’m not mistaken], not a standard belonging to the law of Christ.
5. To believe that the foundational reason some people “do” or “can” become drunkards is because of a “biological predisposition” is to not believe the biblical teaching that the foundational reason for continuous drunkenness is “sin” in the nonphysical heart. Therefore, the “biological predisposition” view as stated above is not “conservative” [i.e. that which “conserves” the Scriptures].
6. How the “not causing your brother to stumble” admonition should be applied should be left for individual Christians to decide it seems to me. Once Christians begin to say “that means you ‘absolutely’ don’t do this or that particular thing” to other Christians it seems to me they have crossed the line into imposing their “law” upon the consciences of others.
7. All appeals to tradition [i.e., “my Daddy taught me long ago…”] and emotional stories [i.e., “my Dad used to come home drunk and beat…”] in and of themselves are not appeals to biblical authority.
8. I don’t drink at all.
Grace
BCR
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I grew up a Methodist and became a Presbyterian (PCA) in my mid twenties (am now 32). I can appreciate nothing more than a cold beer in the summer, wine with dinner, or a nice toddy in the winter. I understand that alcohol can be easily abused…like anything else. Food, Sex, Money, Power, Prestige, any self indulgence where the biggest idol of our heart is ourself. But to put a constraint on a persons choice when there is no biblical basis or support, makes me think of a works righteousness attitude. In our country right now we allow abortion, encourage homosexuality, easy divorce, no accountability whatsoever, and we are allowing the erosion of our CORE beliefs that God and Christ mandated. I wish we pursued the lost with the same fervor as we blast each other over whether or not we can take a drink. Church leadership at times think that individuals cannot think for themselves nor use sound judgment. If we use the scriptures as a filter (as we should), then we would be neglect in failing to use it in it’s entirety as some are want to do.
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Bob: I grew up in that world in the 1960s in a small Ky town and I saw it change and go away.
The Gospel that was preached has changed drastically.
The culture doesn’t cooperate- and they shouldn’t- so it’s a different world.
There was a lot of legalism, racism, prejudice and sins that were part of that world that I don’t miss.
I don’t know what to make of the revivals comment. I was part of huge revivals too. It seems to have made little difference in the long or short run.
I miss some of that world and I give them credit for being more Gospel centered in some ways. But I also recognize that a cultural religion isn’t the real thing, at least not in Matthew 23.
And they were wrong about the Bible and moderate alcohol use.
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IN my grandmother’s day (born 1908) she was a teetotaler( she hated even when we brought boxes from the liquor store to pack things) AND a strict observer of the Sunday sabbath – no cooking (done Saturday),no laundry,washing dishes, no buying – all the stores were closed anyway.
Yet the churches were packed, great revival meetings, an enormous community event, took place, and the pagan world took notice- nobody dared shack up.
I don’t know how much bickering was done over the booze issue but overall the church was healthier. What are we missing today?
I agree with many assessments here but I’d trade booze and open-on-Sunday stores to have the church she had.
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I’ve been a United Methodist all my life and grew up in KY. I was taught by my mother and the pastors that drinking, be it beer or wine or whatever, is wrong. When I moved to a southwestern state, I found that some UM church members felt it was okay to have the occasional beer. I was confused. Then I moved to FL and joined a very young but very rapidly-growing UM church. The church members here come from very diverse backgrounds. The majority of them see nothing wrong with drinking “beer and wine, but none of the hard stuff,” – even the ones who came from SBC backgrounds. So, I’m even more confused about that topic, and I have been for the many, many decades of my life.
Maybe it doesn’t really matter and I shouldn’t worry about it.
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There’s a story about a German girl who went to seminary in Ft Worth. Her flight got her to Texas the night before the dorms opened, so a local pastor let her stay with them for the night. At dinner, the pastor’s wife was in horror that the seminary student was having a beer, and the student doubted the pastor’s wife’s salvation, because she was wearing makeup.
ps – the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin is …
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Or cut his hair. Get with it people. The law is the law. All or nothing. Time to stone your rebellious children and treat your wife as property.
Do we have a newe covenant of not? Is John 2 in the Bible? Is that wine in the LS or are we Muslims?
Is this actually a discussion? Read the Whitfield piece.
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“If Nazarites as a group were not to partake of liquor (no one was compulsed to join them), why can a denomination (which is an extra Biblical group within the universal family of God/Ekklesia) , such as the Southern Baptists, not be free to do likewise?”
Num 6:20 “And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before Jehovah. This is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder. AND AFTERWARD THE NAZARITE MAY DRINK WINE.”
Do you think the Nazarites would be happy with grape juice either?
Num 6:4 “All the days of his Nazariteship he shall eat NOTHING that is made of the grapevine, from grape seeds even to a stem.”
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By the way, the early Southern Baptists were just as Biblical in defending slavery as the contemporary social drinkers are in defending social drinking. Neither is condemned in the Bible in the absence of abuse.
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Hear ye! Hear ye!
It seems to me that a Christian is free to be bound, free to offend, free to kill, free to strip, free to make obscene gestures, free to do almost anything in the name of Christian freedom.
And yet, in the Bible, we are not to be bound by anything but Christ, are not to offend anyone for any reason, are not to put on the “weights that so easily beset usâ€, and not to live by the Law but by Christ.
Don’t you realize that to list, condone and do specific things such as social drinking (of alcohol), smoking, immodest dress even at the beach, is in fact living by/condoning it by a/the Law when the practice of the principles set forth by Jesus Christ as applied within our culture would forbid them?
What are the benefits of the use of alcohol in our contemporary society? Aside from using it as a solvent for medicine, as a combustion retardant/anti knock agent in fuels, as a environment friendly fuel, I really don’t know of any.
On the other hand, the consumption of the stuff by believers WILL produce more alcoholics, WILL offend other believers, WILL result in more automobile accidents, WILL result in more family breakups, WILL result in more strife ETC.
If Nazarites as a group were not to partake of liquor (no one was compulsed to join them), why can a denomination (which is an extra Biblical group within the universal family of God/Ekklesia) , such as the Southern Baptists, not be free to do likewise?
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I just get my brain around this whole concept… it’s absolutely mistifying to me.
One question though. I know many SBC-types…rail against a drop of alcohol….and smoke like chimneys.
Doesn’t the SBC see a dicotomy in this type of thing?
To an outsider it looks like being immersed and abstention from alcohol are what brings a person to salvation…and something’s seriously wrong with that.
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There are plenty of good personal reasons for abstaining from both wine or strong drink and everyone is in agreement about the Scriptures in regards to drunkenness. However,there are no scriptural mandates for abstinence and I must say that I am surprised that a former dean of a center for Christian scholarship (as quoted in a earlier post)would make the statement,’Therefore, Christians ought not to drink wine, beer, or other alcoholic beverages for they are actually strong drink forbidden in Scripture. Even ancient pagans did not drink what some Christians drink today’
Whether or not beer and wine would be considered strong drink by ancient standards is a subject for debate but is not really what concerns me. What concerns me is that a man involved in Christian scholarship would claim that ‘strong drink’ is forbidden in scripture. Deuteronomy 14:26, Proverbs 31:6
A while back an anonymous biblical scholar started a blog in order to engage his fellow Christian scholars on this subject. He got little in the way of serious scholarly debate and finally gave up in despair saying something to the effect that he could care less if all the alcohol on earth disappeared tomorrow but that the lack of scriptural understanding or the deliberate ignoring or twisting of scripture to support a biblically unsupportable position was what concerned him and was what had prompted him to start the blog. I wish “Concerned SBCer” had kept his blog online, it was a very good source of scholarly information on this subject and a good example of what to expect in the public debate of this subject. (You can still read a couple of Concerned SBCer’s posts on Joe Thorn’s blog site: http://www.joethorn.net/2006/07/06/abstinence
-moderation-and-tolerance/)
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It’s because so many adults get saved by iced-tea socials. In 1957.
We kill me. As somebody else has said, “this is why I hate us.”
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Psalm 104 states that God gave to man wine “that gladdens the heart.”
“While the Bible does not specifically forbid the consumption of beverages that contain alcohol, it does forbid drunkenness.”
It forbids drunkenness, but endorses a wine-inspired gladness.
If wine-inspired gladness were an evil, then Psalm 104 would read..
“God gave to man wine that so abominably makes him tipsy and liable to commit every kind of foul abomination in the attendant loss of faculties. God expected them to use it to purify water, as medicinal purposes, to cure stomach ailments, but in their wickedness they drank it socially and began to feel merry.”
There is a state of gladness and merriment reached before landing in drunkeness. And everyone who drinks moderately knows this, though they might not feel at liberty to admit it in sanctified company. If it didn’t, what would wine’s appeal be? Just as caffeine gives a nice charge of energy without doing what cocaine would do, so wine in moderation gives a nice “joy” without doing what a good sloshing would do.
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Good grief John the Bapt. Half the people in this discussion said they don’t drink. They deplore the legalism and the abandonment of the Bible. Do you want to be commended for NOT doing what scripture says can be done in moderation? And do you want those who DO what scripture says to be condemned?
No one is a “nutjob.” Legalism is ugly and specifically condemned in scripture. The SBC can be a denomination of abstainers and still not be a denomination of legalists. Ask John Piper about that one. No one deplores alcohol more than him, and he admits and practices in his church exactly what the New Testament teaches.
If a bunch of SBCers are going to whine that “Now we find out we abstained for the wrong reasons. Feel sorry for us,” then we’ve gotten pathetic.
It’s about the authority of scripture. Missionaries are being turned away!!
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An a current IMB person I have issues with this as well. I don’t drink because I don’t like the taste of it. But I don’t like the fact that an organization is dictating my behavior to me. In the SBC we claim that each church is autonomous but then we allow organizations to dictate theology and behaviors. I love cigars, but it’s equal to having an affair if I light up even on vacation. The real issue isn’t the alcohol it’s the control factor on issues that aren’t fundamental to the gospel.
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When ever anybody tries to enforce something with rules it becomes law which always brings death. We need to lead people to love Jesus with everything they have and train people to know the word and allow their convictions to lead them in these disputable matters. Far to often we argue and debate points that are nothing more than a distraction from what we all should be doing. My 2 cents worth 🙂
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The question I have is: how do we work against such “non-Biblical binding of conscience” with regards to not only this, but other issues through out all of our denominations? And when I say “work against” I mean in the most Christ-honoring way we can manage.
The answer varies somewhat,perhaps, depending on the role of individuals in their churches but even so, I think it’s worth discussing.
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@K.W. Leslie,
Your ‘complaint’ is not odd. While God created a good earth for us to live in, we at times can find ways to use it for idolatry in its broadest sense. Many people do that with alcohol. If you wish not to drink for fear of such an addiction, then that is your conscience. But it is most commendable that you are not doing it by demonizing it as the fundamentalists do. While I occasionally drink, if I am with someone like you I would have no problem abstaining because I respect such an opinion. Privately is another story. I understand about the family background, personally I cannot stand cheap beer. Any beer that looks like you could refill the glass in the bathroom, I have no desire to drink. That comes from my upbringing, and frankly, it does not matter that much to me. I like Guinness. I would not call your position odd, maybe cautious and definitely mature.
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While the Bible does not specifically forbid the consumption of beverages that contain alcohol, it does forbid drunkenness.
“Norman Geisler, former Dean of Liberty Center for Christian Scholarship, Liberty University, has written: ‘Many wine drinking Christians today mistakenly assume that what the New Testament meant by wine is identical to wine used today. This, however, is false. In fact, today’s wine is by Biblical definition strong drink, and hence forbidden by the Bible. What the Bible frequently meant by wine was basically purified water,’ purified by adding some alcoholic wine. The Holman Bible dictionary says, wine was also used as a medicine and disinfectant.â€
“Geisler goes on to say, ‘Therefore, Christians ought not to drink wine, beer, or other alcoholic beverages for they are actually strong drink forbidden in Scripture. Even ancient pagans did not drink what some Christians drink today.’”
Let us therefore make sure that we do not bind others in the exercise of our personal freedom. Remember, according to statistics, ten percent of all who take up social drinking because of your freedom will become problem drinkers. Are we like Paul willing to give up our liberties for the benefit of others?
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*sigh* once again painting all Baptists with a broad stroke.
Isn’t it something how things have changed so much that now the folks who dare to be against drinking are considered to be the nutjobs? I guess I will have to go and get smashed so that I can make lost folks at home. Let’s no worry about the gospel either, that might make them uncomfortable.
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I go to a Reformed Southern Baptist Church. We don’t line up needless to say. I think it is sad that neither Timothy nor Jesus could be messengers at our convention meetings. I find it sad that we get red faced and won’t allow a little sprinkling in the baptistry, but we don’t mind a little grape juice in the communion. It seems if we are so biblical on one, we sould be biblical on the other: “baptism is immersion and fruit of the vine is wine”.
My church is pretty good about this, the pastor realizes the Bible commends wine on certain occassions. Most “educated” people can read the Bible and realize the difference between drunkeness and moderation. I keep wondering what agenda this is serving and I think it’s just pure and simple legalism. We don’t like certain aspects of society so we fight against it. I personally don’t drink, my father was an alcoholic. But as long as my elders are not given to “much wine” I’m ok with it.
This is on par with the tongues issue, where we have missionaries being sidelined because of things not in the BFM. In my opinion, the SBC is eaten up with legalism and a good dose of 16th century Theology might clear some of that up. But then again, a denomination that sprang into existence over defending slavery isn’t likely to take the medicine easily. It makes me sad that after working very hard in seminary to help the SBC, they might not hire me because I’m ok with a little drinking, a little smoking, and a little Tulip.
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I always loved Lewis’s response to teetotalism…
I strongly object to the tyrannic and unscriptural insolence of anything that calls itself a Church and makes teetotalism a condition of membership. Apart from the more serious objection (that Our Lord Himself turned water into wine and made wine the medium of the only rite He imposed on all His followers), it is so provincial (what I believe you people call “small town”).
The ‘provincial’ part doesn’t really matter in my mind, but the rest of it’s great. ‘Insolence’… love it.
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I group up in an SBC church in Spartanburg, SC. I attended (and still do, sparingly) a SBC college in Greenville, SC (North Greenville College). I attended Lifeway camps and retreats throughout my entire Middle and High school years. I visited many SBC churches in SC through a ministry i was involved in at NGC. I attended ministries and had friends at many SBC churches in the upstate South Carolina. I now am the Student Pastor at an SBC church in Western North Carolina and have connections in quite a few area churches. I’m only 22 years old (i had to think about that for a minute, memory loss is starting early), and I haven’t seen but a small fraction of the SBC.
But, I’m convinced that it won’t be around much longer. I’m convinced that so many people are completely losing touch with the culture and the Bible and the importance of knowing God that the SBC is on its way out and the churches that survive will either do so independently or as part of some of these new-fangled “networks” or something. The alcohol issue is only the tip of the iceberg.
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It’s sort of weird to me. I just have a hard time believing this is still such an issue. That people who are such sticklers for the Bible being the sole rule of faith and practice cling to such an obvious man-made tradition when it comes to the issue of alcohol. I searched and searched the scriptures over this back in college when a friend challenged me to make my case for no drinking and in the end, I had to submit to what the Bible was saying, which was that drinking in moderation was not a sin…getting drunk was.
Interestingly, though I’m not a Southern Baptist, I was applying for a job at the Baptist Book Store in Nashville back in the mid-90s. It was a position for manager/buyer for the music department. I had the experience they wanted, I hit it off with the store manager. Everything was lining up. Then there was a question on the employment application covering drinking and other moral issues and being a representative of the SBC and asked if you participated in any of the listed things. I was honest and said that I drank from time to time, a glass of wine or a beer with dinner, that sort of thing. But I said that if this was an issue that I would be willing to abstain as long as I was employed there. Amazingly, the manager told me it was going to be a dealbreaker. He understood but the committee that had final say on my employment would kick it out because even if I waited until I was no longer employed, people might recognize me as being an employee there and if I was drinking somewhere it would reflect badly on the SBC.
Then he said something curious…basically that if I hadn’t answered the question that way, it wouldn’t have been an issue. I said, “in other words, if I was dishonest, I’d have the job right now but since I showed integrity by being forthcoming, you’re turning me down.” He sort of shrugged and said his hands were tied and I didn’t get the job. And at the time, I needed that job. I was only 7 months out of college and my first job with a Christian music company evaporated after a buyout from one of the big secular record companies and a total restructuring eliminated my position.
Good ole legalism. Been crushing spirits and weighing down Christ’s easy yoke for centuries.
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I attend a somewhat rare SBC church here in South Carolina. We have a reformed-oriented, Gospel-preaching pastor who is a teetotaler, but tells people in the new member class that he has no problem with them drinking (puts it well within the realm of where Christians may comfortably disagree. He’s not a young pastor either). All that and he’s gun-ho IMB and Lotte-Moon.
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What?? The Bible doesn’t say anything against abortion? What about the whole not-killing-people thing? Oh wait, wrong topic.
I went to a SB college. Obviously it was a dry campus (in theory, anyway), and we did not hold any sponsored dances either.
Also, they had this rule that unmarried people were not to have sex. Why? Because it could lead to dancing, of course!
But I digress. Nothing of use to add here, just joining everyone else in the eye-rolling.
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I was interviewed for the position of youth minister at a church in Missouri. They sent me a questionnaire that contained 75 questions that I had to answer and then send back. One of the questions dealt with the issue of alcohol and I answered with my convictions that teetotaling wasn’t the biblical stance.
Needless to say the interview went well, but the issue was with this one question dealing with alcohol. Nothing else was a problem. There were no problems dealing with the foundational doctrine questions, or with Scripture itself, or my philosophy of ministry. They hammered me with questions about all kinds of issues, but when it came time to decide on calling me to fill the position, the one issue that kept them from doing so, was my position on alcohol. Missouri Southern Baptists are serious about his issue. Sad, but true.
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We’re members currently of an SBC church. My wife, however, grew up Roman Catholic and my background from childhood on is thoroughly pluralistic in the broadest sense of the term. We mostly just observe this with a raised eyebrow and long since gave up trying to make sense out of it. We do watch it tear people apart, though. I remember one family (former Presbyterians) who had an adult son who was having a champagne toast at his reception. When they heard about it, one of the mother’s closest friends told them she wouldn’t go to the wedding because of that.
Sigh.
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I’m not a Baptist, but I play one on TV….
Seriously though. My denomination (Assemblies of God) likewise frowns upon liquor. I’ve actually heard a pastor from my denomination said, “We don’t approve of liquor for the same reason we don’t approve of abortion. The bible doesn’t say anything specific against it, but we just know it’s wrong.”
This, from one of the purported disciples of the Man who provided the good stuff for a wedding. (Jn 2)
I don’t drink — mainly ’cause of all the alcoholics in my family, which is a statistic I don’t wish to join. It makes my complaint odd, since I’m advocating for a freedom I don’t personally have. But far be it for me to deny someone else anything that Jesus personally has no problem with. It reminds me too much of Peter’s comment, “Why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?” (Ac 15:10) Just as the Pharisees among the Christians insisted on their culture over God’s grace, so many of our churches do likewise. It’s hard enough following the commandments without all this adding to them.
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On the more serious side, though… A while back I was considering helping out with our youth group. I was told that I would have to sign an agreement that included abstaining from ‘drug use’–which I was informed included alcohol–while working with the youth. The leadership says that they do not believe that alcohol use is a sin but that it might set a bad example for the young people or present a temptation to them if they saw it one of the adult leader’s home and/or were to sneak off with some.
I decided against taking the position (not because of this issue) but I really was tempted to ask if caffeine and prescription medication would be placed in the category of drugs–particularly psychotropic drugs (the agreement did not specify illegal or recreational drug use) and if they also advised locking up valuables in the leaders’ homes to prevent tempting any of the kids to steal. There are a whole lot of mixed signals going out on this issue.
I confess that, while I don’t hide the fact that I believe it is both biblical and healthy to use, but not abuse, alcohol, I haven’t yet taken on this issue with my church. And with their fairly moderate stance on the subject I’m content to leave it in the category of Romans 14 and not make an issue of it.
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I’m an SBC’er. I love my church. The other day my pastor was talking about the Lord’s Supper and he mentioned ‘the bread and the juice’. I couldn’t help but smile and wonder why we don’t go ahead and call the little wafers what they really are and have ‘juice and crackers’ for communion! 🙂 Like you said, Michael, you gotta laugh–it does beat crying.
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“Neither the SBC’s Cooperative Program mechanism for funding mission work or the Baptist Faith and Message doctrinal statement require the position of the alcohol fundamentalists.”
My friends at the Baptist Seminary in New Orleans are required to sign a statement pledging not to drink at all, but as I understand it they must also, if they want to be missionaries with the IMB, must declare that they have not had a drink within 5 years or, if they have, explain why. Certainly the faith and message doesn’t force the issue, but the IMB seems to have a required position here. I could be off here, I admit, it’s been few since I ran with the Baptists. I moved elsewhere because I came to believe in Real Presence in the Sacrament though, not so much over the alchohol thing, though (as a young pastor) it does irk me.
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Former SBC, also. The way I heard it: “Jews don’t recognize Jesus as Messiah, Lutherans don’t recognize the infallibility of the pope, and Baptists don’t recognize each other in the liquor store.”
Amen on the buffet. I served with an SBC pastor once who swore us all to abstinence with alcohol but we later discovered that he didn’t abstain of other people’s wives. Cheers!
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And as an Anglican, you’ve certainly moved on from the occasional beer 🙂
Ha!
You have to laugh at these stories. Jesus can weep, but I have to laugh.
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From a former Southern Baptist (BSU director and Pastor):
My wife and I went all the way through the process of applying as missionaries with the IMB (then FMB) 10+ years ago. We were rejected for one reason and one reason only — I drink an occasional beer. In fact, the guy who was midwifing us through the process told us we had the, “Clearest call of anyone in the current group of applicants to foreign missions.” But there was no way he could put us before the board (there is an actual board). We could have all kinds of other issues in our lives, but that was an absolute deal killer.
We chalked it up to God’s providence, went to seminary and now I’m an Anglican.
Still….
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Call this reason #384 why I am no longer a Southern Baptist. Like the first commenter, I got sick and tired of hearing condemnations against anyone who drank anything at all.
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My dog just posted this at the BHT.
***Irony Alert***
“Tonight’s Regular Meeting of “Missouri Baptist Pastors Against An Occasional Beer†will be at the Golden Trough Buffet in the old Wal-Mart building on South 40. All you can eat for $7. No need to bring your Bibles. Selected verses will be handed out at the meeting.â€
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Interestingly enough, my SBC does not really press the whole alcohol issue much at all. We do have one Dutch friend who’s a member and who openly admits to drinking beer. I believe he has taken some heat from certain people because of that in the past, but I think that in general people don’t bother him about it.
Every once in a while I elbow the Pastor about using real wine in the communion instead of grape juice–I don’t expect it to ever happen, though.
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The way I always heard the joke was: “Why do you never invite just one Baptist to go fishing with you?”
“If you invite one, he’ll drink all your beer. If you invite two, they won’t drink any.”
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Oooh! We’ve got one!
“The Catholic Church: Come for the wine, Stay for the bingo”
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Very funny. Actually….the denominations that allow drinking should run counter ads.
“The United Methodist Church: Where You Don’t Go To Hell for a Beer.”
“The PCUSA: If you go to our General Assembly, you’ll need a drink.”
(jn)
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Michael, this just shows the futility of Sola Scriptura and why you should become Catholic.
(jn).
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I am a former one. I only ask, what’s the old joke about 2 SBCs not acknowledging each other in the liquor store? I still carry scars from being made to feel that my parents (one SBC and one DoC) were in some way “immoral” because they were social drinkers.
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