12 Churches, 12 Calvinists

59 thoughts on “12 Churches, 12 Calvinists”

1. Jesus turned the culture on its ear with his teachings. The gospel turned the world on it’s ear. They both reacted violently. When will we learn that it is about the gospel regardless of what the culture says. As a calvinist, my theology does not excuse me from following Jesus and spreading the gospel. When will we learn that the culture is sick (not only in appalachia). These churches are already dead, “fixing”them is a waste of time. The SBC is lost in a “christian culture social club”. Armed with education (a god of the culture) many of these young pastors will simply engage in the same broken techniques to convert the masses through some new, trendy or CCM based salesmanship which after years of practice has produced the mess the church is in today. When the REAL gospel is lived & communicated, real impact on the culture will result. But the culture will also react violently. We are too connected to our money, jobs & stuff to really care. The elephant in the room is the church really does not care for the lost, we simply create the illusion to pat ourselves on the back & tell Jesus what a great job we are doing. We have our monuments to ourselves and they are emptying fast. When living & spreading the gospel becomes authentic the world will then be impacted. The early church did not try to fix the culture, it replaced it with personal community. When the urgency of reaching the lost & the reality that people are lost every second of every day motivates the church to throw our stuff aside for precious souls, then the church will again assault the culture.

   LikeLike

2. I am a convert to the Southern Baptist Church and live in Mississippi. I was raised Methodist until my mid 20’s, but had no formal indoctrination in Methodist theology. I have studied extensively (though informally) Calvinism and Reformed thought, mainly because the university I attended had an attractive and healthy Reformed Youth program. Though I have come to agree with some of it’s points, it never fully took, as I couldn’t reconcile the limited atonement with the Christ I knew. Anyway, as I was not brought up in the Southern Baptist Church, I am not fully aware of the controversey surrounding the 1979 “Happening” (for lack of a better description) at the SBC. Could someone fill me in, or direct me to a neutral site/books on the subject?

   Also, to add my opinion to the above: Since most SB churches are still very congregationalist, wouldn’t the people know that these were Calvinist pastors and so probably not hire them in the first place?

   Thanks for listening.

   LikeLike

3. What’s going to happen?
   I don’t know. “I don’t know” is a theological statement. God can do anything, and often likes to surprise us.

   What could happen?
   If the new pastors are faithful, they will preach the word well. If they’re faithful *and* risk-takers (which I believe is *really* part of being faithful), they’ll also allow for some spirit-led experiences (like organized sessions of prayer for each other, words of knowledge, etc.).

   What won’t happen?
   I don’t know. Another theological statement.

   “Will it work? Can these churches be turned around?”
   What does “work” mean? One day, over 10,000 people were following Jesus. The next day, Jesus successfully narrowed that down to 12. Jesus considered pruning as necessary as watering. Or, as Dr. Gene Scott liked to put it, “Elimination is as necessary as assimilation.”
   What will be the key factors in success or failure?
   Again, what is success or failure? How do you measure it? These men, if they take some steps to love and identify with the sheep they’re going to serve and lead, may reach the hearts of their new congregations. The congregants, for their part, may have renewed interest in digging in deep into the Word, and seeing what it really says, and letting their traditions be challenged.

   My prediction: 4 responses from the congregation. Some will say, “What are these guys saying? Doesn’t make sense.” This response might include a (not physical) violent resistance to change. Others will say, “These guys are great!” but when they see the changes that are required of their way of life, will soon resist and go back to the way things have always been done. Others will take longer to reach the same state. Others will be whole-hearted and embrace the good changes that the new guys are bringing in. Whether the following comes about in a permanent way in the community is another matter: Better theology, better church life, less in-bred-ness, more ministry to the needy in their area, more cohesive community life while at the same time being more welcome to outsiders, more Scripture-based supernatural activity. There might not be enough of a critical mass of good soil to maintain a change.

   Will it work?
   Are these the men to do it?
   If God calls them, yes. If not, no.
   What this really all depends on is if this is God’s will or not. When it was God’s will for the Israelites to go into the promised land (Numbers 13), they would have succeeded, though the odds against them looked great. But just one chapter later, when the people revealed their stiffnecked attitude, God said he would no longer be with them in going into the promised land. Nothing had changed in 1 chapter–nothing but the potential outcome. This is what makes me wary of measuring success by some simple external standard (though I suppose one of the reasons you started this post is to stimulute such a discussion).
   Or what about a single man, Elijah, hanging out with a widow. That’s kind of suspicious. And he takes advantage of her, saying “feed the prophet”, even though she’s about to starve. But Elijah was just the person God picked to help her, and he helped her big time. Would I have chosen Elijah for this task? Would you?

   Your question could have been equally posed if you replaced reformed-type pastors with Clark Pinnock or Greg Boyd type pastors, and I would have answered similarly.

   LikeLike

4. Blagh, soz. “fight about an *un*important issue.”

   LikeLike

5. I can tell you what happened in one church in a neighboring state.

   People continued coming as before. Most of them thought the preaching was excellent, but, after a time, began to wonder about the pastor’s lack of excitement for traditional activities.

   Members who believed strongly in the church’s mandate to use their wealth in ministry to the poor ultimately became discouraged because of the pastor’s desire to keep the church free from such encumbrances; so, they left to find a church that would accept their offerings and channel them as they desired they be channeled.

   Miracle of miracles, a few adults became believers and were baptized. Some were ecstatic about this, but the majority just assumed that God did it for His own reasons, and, more concerned about the lack of enthusiasm during worship services, from the pulpit, and in consultation with the pastor.

   Ultimately, the church began to fight over a relatively important issue, and the young pastor returned to seminary to study *more*.

   Names omitted to protect the guilty, but forgiven. Personally, I’m still trying to figure it all out.

   LikeLike

6. Well, the church will fight. This is what occurred in our church. We helped start the small church we are in. My husband eventually agreed to fill the pulpit but he let the congregation know he was Reformed.

   At first they didn’t care. They just wanted a pastor and could only pay $500.00 a month.

   Then they told him he couldn’t preach reformed messages. They held a business meeting to see if they wanted him gone.

   We are still there preaching reformed messages. No one has left. They are slowly growing in knowledge.

   Blessings,
   Karen

   LikeLike

7. Sir, you don’t need to wonder what will happen. I’ve seen the results in Southern California. The church attendance either will drop like a rock, or it will become a cult-like gathering of 10 people. Doctrinal Calvinism can work only if preached by a pastor with true people skills and a heart for the community. Otherwise, it’s just a lecture for people who appreciate Berkhof and Calvin.

   LikeLike

8. Marshall,

   I can see what you are saying but I think you are applying your own experience to broadly. “That kind of church is meant by God Himself to be a stepping stone for new pastors. Using it as a stepping stone is the right thing to do”. I can’t go along with that. In what way was this church not good for you, your family, or the church? Based on that philosophy you have stayed at your current church 3 years too long. In my opinion it is generally helpful for a pastor to have a long intentional tenure at a church no matter what size it is. Burrying oursleves in a mega church is just as rotten as burrying ourselves in a small rural church. Burried is burried.

   LikeLike

9. I’ve pastored two churches in the past 30 years. I stayed 13 and 1/2 years at the first one, in a small town in North Carolina, about 40 members. This was a mistake. I stayed too long. It wasn’t good for me, my wife, my kids, or the congregation. Oh, we had good fellowship, the Word was preached, children were brought up to know the Lord, we did VBS, missions and so on. But that sort of church is meant by God Himself to be a stepping stone for new pastors. Using it as a stepping stone is the right thing to do. God needs good pastors with some experience to move into wider fields of influence, and burying yourself in the country isn’t good for anyone: the church, your family, and yourself. It makes no difference if you are a Calvinist or not. Preach the Gospel, and move on after a few years. Everyone, including the little country church, will do better with that scenario.

   LikeLike

10. I am a rural pastor in West TN. I preach through books verse by verse. I am 1 point away from being a full blooded Calvinist and have been here for about 4 years with little controversy. My mentor told me years ago that a pastor earns respect just like every one else does. I don’t expect this congregation to fall all over themselves to follow a pastor who does not love them. I pick my battles wisely and fight battles that are brought to me. I don’t pick fights unworthy of fighting. If you think your position, your doctrine, or your methods alone will get the job done you will be gone. Most, not all, but most rural churches simply need long intentional tenures from a pastor to get them back on track. You can not turn the titanic on a dime and you can’t turn a dying church around with one dose of antibiotic. A church doesn’t need a king it needs a shepherd.

    Great Blog!

    LikeLike

11. One thing I perhaps didn’t make clear. It’s not about sincerity. I don’t try to read men’s hearts, can’t do it anyway, enough trouble with my own for that matter to bothering/pretending to read another man’s. That’s never in doubt, sincerity, but men can be sincerely wrong.

    Maybe and example will help that a pastor/elder friend and I went through when he was implementing elders in a traditional SB congregation in which this is quite foreign and even perceived as hostile over take (and I’m not arguing for elders here either, I tend to take church polity 1. there’s no perfect type out there and 2. flexible, this is just an example to show, again, the root problem. As I said this has been tried in many SB churches and failed resulting in disaster at length. Everybody tends to blame the “old congregation” and some is true, but I’ve seen the so called “calvinist” pastors and heard their “reformed” sermons, and Law and Gospel is completely confounded. But NOBODY wants to admit the one thing that will heal, nobody wants to admit we are not preaching Christ and Him crucified like we think we are doing. Anyway, we discussed it during its genesis at his church because he wanted to implement elders and a new confession, but not for a “structure or power” or such but to protect the Gospel. The root thing he identified that made it successful was to instruct congregation, NOT that this is how we use to do it or it appears in Scripture that this is the “biblical way or model and we must follow. Rather something was needed to be put in place that protects the Gospel the best we can and if it doesn’t or cannot we need to jettison it (he addressed church music and SS the same way). And I mean THE Gospel. They ran into the same issue changing the church confession, but we discussed it and I said, “Be careful you don’t use a confession just to line up all your doctrinal ducks (I’ve seen this even in PCA), but it all must serve the Gospel at the end of the day, not to get things right.” That’s how they began to implement change and as the people realized, “we are developing a truly Gospel driven church” not “your law” or “my law” or the local house rules but a Gospel people, a truly freed people they’ve become a people around the Cross.

    The analogy he used was great, borrowed from Luther I believe: There is a type of doctrinal wonk out there that views doctrine (elders, other such changes) like a ‘string of pearls’ that must aligned right, but at the end of the day that’s just another version, one of three ladders we construct to work our way to heaven. You gotta get it right. But he said its more like what Luther said where Christ and the Cross FOR YOU is dead center and all arms of doctrine (e.g. election, predestination, other) must radiate out from this crucial center or heart (like a flower). If not, you end up with an idol of God from Scripture (e.g. there’s a way to see election from Scripture yet apart from the Cross that’s sheer idolatry yet has all the Christian/bible names attached to it).

    As the people began to see that the Gospel was what was being given to them and not “you get this or that right”, the doctrine IS the Gospel at the end of the day, the walls came down. Because it freed them from religiousity something they experience under both types of former pastors, Warrenlike and the so called “Calvinistic” ones (not every single pastor coming out is this way but it is the majority report – you constantly here the old chestnut refrain, “we gotta get back to our roots of an only regenerate church”, well that’s one sure fire way to have everything BUT). The “My law is better than your law” battle lines fell apart and they’ve congregated truly around Christ. Even though a relatively not so well to do $$$ congregation, I’ve seen them exercise wonderful fruits of the spirit in helping each other out as they have means to do so. Don’t get me wrong nothings perfect, but you do see refreshing fruit not often seen in MANY American churches ACROSS the denominational landscape. I’ve seen it happen first hand! But it takes a pastor and leadership to really SEE the Gospel and preach it, CONTINUALLY AND FOR THE CHRISTIAN, PURE, and see it is the power. It takes a humble enough of a man to realize that he’s NOT preaching the Gospel just because he says so, or is exegeting or has adopted the TULIP. It reminds me of a famous line from Spurgeon telling the story of a fellow pastor who after a length of sermons finally came to find a note left on his pulpit saying, “Sir, we will hear of Christ.” Point made!

    John Calvin HIMSELF was first and foremost a comforter of souls unto assurance and faith and pointed men straight to the Cross, although I’d say Luther was still stronger on this.

    I hope that helps.

    Blessings,

    Larry

    LikeLike

12. “This happens with young, headstrong, type A pastors. PERIOD.”

    It happens quite a bit even when the pastor comes from the same denomination, with the original theology of the church body, and grew up in the same culture. I’ve seen it in Lutheran churches that had just gone “community church-ish” for about 30 years. But it can happen even when there is a reasonable degree of humility in the pastor.

    I think some of this goes with how this is taught in seminary. If the professors give the impression that what the congregation is doing should be regarded as Baal worship until it is cleaned up to x degree, then the pastors will feel very responsible for not making what you call “heavy handed changes.”

    The point about mentoring is crucial. I just want it remembered that there is likely an older man in the form of a professor who put it upon the young man to do exactly what we fear he will do. And even if there were other voices speaking of servant leadership, and the student listened, and was temperamentally suited to follow that anyway, the sense of guilt and obligation put on young pastors may be driving a lot of this in ways that congregation members don’t imagine.

    LikeLike

13. Just maybe, this thread points out that the pastor-led model is not all it’s cracked up to be. Ideally(IMO) what should be happening is that the younger men(or women, if you’re so inclined) in the congregation are discipled/mentored by the older ones with the intention of moving into the leadership of the church. And this could involve seminary training as well. But the intention is to grow a group of people from the inside to work together in guiding the church. Call it elder-led or whatever but the “head-honcho” model needs to go.

    Does this mean you never deviate from the plan? No, because nothing is ever “ideal” in real life. But at least you know what you’re working towards.

    LikeLike

14. Your question might be alternatively posed as twelve new doctors who are called to treat twelve terminally ill patients all of whom are unwilling to change or listen. What will happen?
    The patients will likely die. Without divine intervention it is almost a certainty.
    The question for the doctor is the same as the question for the young Calvinists. Can you gain the trust and respect of the patients quickly enough? Is it possible for you to live among your flock in such a way that you gain trust they don’t want to give and authority that has been already given to another.
    It’s a long shot but your chance for success comes by loving the people,living and serving among them and praying fervently for them and with them. Trust God for the outcome.

    LikeLike

15. Did these calvinists sneak or lie to get these pastorates? If they are honest and a church hires them, knowing they plan to lead the church in a different direction, why would they expect something else?

    I am so surprised at the alarmist cries that are coming from many on this thread. You all need to do something about southern if you don’t like what’s coming out of there, right? Where’s the pitchfork “tulip-hater’s” rebellion?

    Do you all believe that the seminaries, or at least southern is teaching young men to go split churches? To do whatever it takes to follow John Piper or Mark Dever? To be heartless and careless of the people they are called to serve? Do you believe that they’re NOT teaching servant leadership and Philippians 2 in classes?

    I attend a church where a young, 30 year old SBTS alum, ARMINIAN (claimed to be a one point calvinist, as many Baptists might, and said that SBTS was certainly an experience!) pastor served for 3 years and did many of the things that you all are predicting a calvinist would do. He never split the church, but because of his lack of humility, his heavy handed changes and unilateral leadership cost him many members, most of whom have come back after he left.

    He preached marvelously and his doctrine was great from the pulpit, but his appeals for Christ-like love and sacrifice, obedience and evangelism, but because he was hard on his people and showed no grace in how he treated us, he lead us nowhere. After he left the pulpit, he was never an example to be listened too. Now granted, there were some hateful (3 I saw act so) but there was no reconciliation, grace, or peacemaking in any action that I ever witnessed. I loved him and his wife and his children. I was sad to see him leave and I still pray for him, but he had AND probably has much to learn about leading God’s people.

    This happens with young, headstrong, type A pastors. PERIOD. This is why every young pastor needs to be mentored in a Paul-Timothy relationship . But nobody did that for our young seminary Grad. There were no older ministers who, even if they disagree on theology, were willing to confront our pastor about his lack of humility and seek to mentor him. Why don’t you write a post about that. About how, regardless of the theology, Older pastors need to seek relationships with their young men and teach them to seek the humility and self sacrifice all the older pastors have experienced.

    Why do these young men turn to Piper and Mohler and Dever and MacArthur? Maybe my generation have written them off?

    LikeLike

16. If we are going to analyze honestly, then let us analyze honestly. Denominational appreciation aside, which is HARD to do because one has to “name names” to gather up the system being analyzed and in doing so, its always taken as an “attack on my system I hold to”, BUT nonetheless just looking at what a group/confession/pastor says – if one can “get outside themselves and a system” and analyze TO YOUR SOUL what X means, then we have Bereans (being a former atheist this has been somewhat easier for me personally because I had no preconceived denominational moorings, per se, or loyalties…at the end of the day “I heard the Law & needed mercy”. In this I very much identify with Luther. That being said:
    The problem with so called “calvinistic” SB is that it’s really a contradiction in terms pure and simple for numerous reasons, the greatest of which is the failure of a Law and Gospel distinction. We could also bring in Lutheran, Herman Sasse, if I recall correctly, who rightly points out that if you go wrong with the sacraments, you will go wrong with all of scripture (I say that not even totally settled on the Supper myself, but analyzing). The issue is the underlying principles in hand, BECAUSE EVERYONE INCLUDING ROME WILL SAY THEY ARE TELLING WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. The later proves NOTHING whatsoever since all do it, even rank deceivers. AND, I must reiterate, this is not a polemic but an honest analysis and connecting of the dots even if some don’t believe it. It is why such furor arises within SBism that spans arminian to Calvinistic theology, the later per se, there’s a reason an arminian Baptist dislikes a Calvinist Baptist doctrine and vice versa, because both at the end of the day are pushing free will and will worship in what they say and communicate. Law and Gospel has EVERYTHING to do with this.
    Because so called “SB calvinist”, which is quite impossible, always leads to error due other parts of their system, including the sacraments. Expositional preaching, done of course rightly is the BEST way to go. But men exposit even in error when they confound Law and Gospel, even more have no real true category for such under the guise of “whole council of God” as if there is some other. Herein lay the blindness even by expositional preaching. The issue is not topical versus expositional for the Pharisees didn’t do “topical teaching” but excruciating exegetical, “…you search the Scriptures…”, etc…. The issue is Law and Gospel, what has God said to us and ordering it accordingly.

    Such “so called” Calvinist would hardly agree with John Calvin’s own successor Theodore Besa who said, “We must pay great attention to these things. For, with good reason, we can say that ignorance of this distinction between Law and Gospel is one of the principle sources of the abuses which corrupted and still corrupt Christianity.”
    Who also said, “On this subject we call the “Word of God” (for we know well that the Eternal Son of God is also so named) the canonical books of the Old and New Testament; for they proceed from the mouth of God Himself.
    We divide this Word into two principal parts or kinds: the one is called the “Law”, the other the “Gospel”. For, all the rest can be gathered under the one or the other of these two headings. (IN OTHER WORDS THERE IS NO OTHER WORD, OR WHOLE COUNCIL OF GOD, LAW AND GOSPEL ARE THE WHOLE COUNCIL SPOKEN AND INCARNATE)
    What we call Law (when it is distinguished from Gospel and is taken for one of the two parts of the Word) is a doctrine whose seed is written by nature in our hearts. However, so that we may have a more exact knowledge, it was written by God on two Tables and is briefly comprehended in ten commandments. In these He sets out for us the obedience and perfect righteousness which we owe to His majesty and our neighbours. This on contrasting terms: either perpetual life, if we perfectly keep the Law without omitting a single point, or eternal death, if we do not completely fulfil the contents of each commandment (Deut. 30:15-20; James 2:10).
    What we call the Gospel (“Good News”) is a doctrine which is not at all in us by nature, but which is revealed from Heaven (Matt 16:17; John 1:13), and totally surpasses natural knowledge. By it God testifies to us that it is His purpose to save us freely by His only Son (Rom. 3:20-22), provided that, by faith, we embrace Him as our only wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption (1 Cor 1:30). By it, I say, the Lord testifies to us all these things, and even does it in such a manner that at the same time he renews our persons in a powerful way so that we may embrace the benefits which are offered to us (1 Cor 2:4).”

    This IS the issue and why what manifests manifests. Most SB Calvinist are fooling themselves if they think they are being thrown out for the Word, they are not. They are thrown out for “my law is better than your law”.

    Blessings,

    Larry

    LikeLike

17. Well, golly. I read this website all the time, but I think I’ve only commented once. Looks like there are some pretty dire warnings already listed here.

    I don’t have a specific prediction to offer regarding the above scenario, but that’s probably because I’m too busy conjuring up predictions for my own denomination, which so far as I can tell, is headed straight down the tubes.

    But then, in the midst of all my self-important, the-sky-is-falling presumptions, God will sometimes get a hold of me, and urge me to pray for the situation, instead of sitting around griping.

    So, I’m reading all these predictions of what rural Kentucky churches could become in the next several years, and a lot of the scenarios make sense. I can see what people are saying, and how the suggestions are plausible.

    But I’m going to be praying – praying that God raises up a new generation of pastors for this community, men who are firm in their faith and convictions (Calvinist or otherwise), but humble in spirit and open to what they may learn from serving these brothers and sisters in Christ. I’ll be praying that God will equip those He has called with the strength to answer the call and to “stick with it,” the grace and mercy to love the flocks entrusted to them, and the perseverance to find a way to preach the Truth in love, gentleness, and humility. And then I’ll be praying for the faithful Christians in those small, dying(?) congregations; men and women who, regardless of how much we could nitpick their theology, have lived their lives loving and serving the Lord. I’m going to pray that as time brings changes to their congregations and communities, that God would give them grace to make transitions as smooth as possible, that they would be looking for what He has in store for them next, and that they will keep an open mind and a humble heart in their dealings with new and changing leadership.

    This is a really interesting thought experiment, Michael, and I don’t intend my comments to deem the conversation pointless. I just want to remind everyone (myself definitely included) that the worst case scenario we can imagine up is not necessarily pre-ordained.

    LikeLike

18. I wouldn’t want to see twelve inexperienced seminary grads sent into an environment like this, regardless of their theology or where they went to school, unless they could be mentored/befriended by more experienced pastors already in the area. The culture you describe is challenging enough for even the most seasoned veteran, so I’m afraid it would cause great harm to these men, their wives, and their children (if any).

    LikeLike

19. Verse by verse exposition of the Scripture is refreshing to the regenerate children of God. These pastors know that they have nothing to say apart from the Word, so it will be their megaphone, not acronyms or philosophy.

    The Gospel is an offense to the unregenerate, so clear, accurate, humble exposition of the Word will cause upheaval. There will be a “trimming of the fat” when people are no longer getting their ears tickled with inspirational messages that are ungrounded in Scripture. A significant part of any church consists of people who just feel comfortable with the community, the tradition, their own pursuit of power, etc. I expect that these people will grow tired of hearing sin called sin and try to 1) turn the church against the pastor, 2) take a part of the congregation with them when they leave, 3) leave by themselves if all else fails.

    Some of the congregations may be holding on to unrepentant sin, namely, pride. They may resist being brought under subjection to the authority of Scripture at first, but I trust the Holy Spirit to sanctify them and show them the err of their ways. Even if they do not become Calvinists, they will not reject fundamental, orthodox theology, and the pastors will need to have grace to separate essential from non-essential topics.

    The remaining parts of the congregations will thrive. They have been starving to death for decades and will begin to be fed from the living Word of God. They will be excited, passionate, and determined to follow Christ at all costs. They will realize that tradition is not bad, but EVERYTHING must be brought into subjection under the Word. They will learn to test everything, to hold on to the good, and to avoid every kind of evil.

    Lastly, the Gospel will be cleaned up. Those who are inoculated to the social conservatism / moralistic Gospel will hear repentance and faith preached along with the concept of regeneration. They will recognize sin for sin, and praise God. This could lead to a sweeping revival in the area. At first, it will lead to a painful trimming of fat / pruning of the tree. Clearly unregenerate persons will undergo church discipline or leave on their own. People will have to come to the realization that making a case for an extended family member’s salvation against all Biblical evidence doesn’t help anything – it hurts. Then the true, un-muddied Gospel of the Bible will be preached! Sinners will know where they stand, and God will embrace his sheep and raise up new leaders from the flock!

    Most of this has more to do with proper exegesis than Calvinism, but the (sad) fact is that the Calvinists seem to have the market on Biblical exposition right now. Arminianism is largely still chock full of topical sermons each week.

    Also, you forgot to mention Dr. Sproul and Lawson as influences!

    Great post! Great idea!

    LikeLike

20. This is a great discussion and a wonderful question. I think we may be able to learn something even from the assumptions behind many of our comments. (I am not arguing whether they are necessarily right or wrong assumptions).

    1) These ‘edumacated’ seminarians with all their book learnin’ will not be gentle and patient and will be throwin’ their book smarts and fancy learnin’ at us.

    2) Calvinists do not actually believe what they say they do. Explanation: If a man really takes to the idea of God’s sovereignty and the sufficiency of Scripture then he will labor to stay and faithfully proclaim the Word, and hopefully that will shape and mold the congregation (and pastor) into Christ-like followers. Through this patient faithful exposition God will use the pastor to lead the church into a more biblical practice.

    3) Calvinism=church splits

    4) These pastors only care about a youth movement and people of their own generation. All they really want to do is change us!

    5) Calvinist are more concerned about Calvinism than the gospel.

    6) Young pastors are not gentle and “will be like a bull in a china shop”

    These are a few assumptions I’ve noticed. It is not my goal to argue the validity of these statements but only to say that this is what will shape the answer. Is the pastor different than these assumptions and willing to work through the difficult years of transition and dispelling some of these myths and/or growing in areas where they may unfortunately be true?

    My thought on this is that if these men coming from seminary really believe in the Sovereignty of God, and really believe that God has called them to care for these particular sheep, and they really believe in the power and sufficiency of Scripture, and they really do labor to get to know the culture, and they really are trained by God in humility; then, I believe that these 12 churches will look like many other solid biblical churches. Full of sinners that Jesus died for and trying to realize and live every day the truth of both these propositions: I am not good and righteous; but Jesus is (Luther). Or Newton, “I am a great sinner, and Christ is a great Savior”.

    LikeLike

21. knowiing who calvin was and what he taught is not a requirement for Salvation… none of those old dead guys teachings will get anyone into Heaven… Only those of The Church will enter Heaven and join the “Old Testiment Saints” already there.
    Many of those folks in the “12 Baptist churches” will be entering Heaven…while many who are of the “seminary” trainiing will not be…
    One need not even have read a “Bible” the receive God’s free, and eternal, gift of Salvation.

    there is only One Church… and if you aint of The Church you will be left out side The Gate.

    LikeLike

22. My advice to young ministers would be to run as far away and as fast as they can from this scenario UNLESS God specifically demands that they go to those churches. There is a reason why the Lord is allowing churches all across our nation to decline and die, and we can’t pin the blame on the ‘big, bad, world’.

    Having pastored the 25-member “Hyper-Calvinist Church of the Republican Party” for two years, I look back at that experience and recognize that God was teaching me a number of things. But in the end, my family got hurt, some people in the church got hurt as well, and I ended up resigning.

    Don’t go into these little churches and even suggest changing anything if you want to stay. A young minister who does go into a church like these must be in it for the ‘long-haul’ as it will either die or several key funerals will need to take place before significant positive change can take place.

    It takes a very special person to go into the little family churches and have a productive ministry. I am not cut out for the job.

    My own feeling is that church planting is a much better option for young ministers in our current environment. Go Acts29!

    LikeLike

23. Here’s my question: How does a small rural church with (presumably) very little resources entice a seminary grad (presumably with a Master’s degree) to come be their pastor? Will he be bi-vocational? Does the seminary prepare or encourage seminarians to consider bi-vocationality?

    My prediction: Calvinist or not, they won’t last 3 years. Why? Because SBC pastors just don’t (on average) last that long. I suspect that their reported numbers will go down because they won’t be so enamored of invitationalism and transactionalism and will probably try to trim the church rolls rather than inflating them.

    Their calvinism probably won’t contribute much to their success or failure but a strong belief in God’s sovereignty may well make them better able to bear failure.

    LikeLike

24. Some of “y’all” are hinting at the real problem that these new pastors are going to face. In my opinion it is this. In every church (and especially in these rural Kentucky churches) there is someone in complete charge. They often do not hold any sort of office or cannot be readily seen at first glance. You may not even meet them when you come to candidate. BUT these are the people in power. As long as they agree with you – you will be allowed to stay. When they differ from you – you will leave. They will NEVER leave as they hold the power. Unless Jr. Pastor Person gets everything approved by the power broker – from his weekly sermons to what his wife wears to the grocery store – he is toast. These people have chewed through better men and their wives than you. They are not evil. They do not intend to harm you or ‘their’ church. They have the best intentions at heart. But they can make your and your wife’s life hell if you cross them.

    So I don’t give any of your Flower Children a chance of staying more than 5 years. But it is not because of their doctrine.

    LikeLike

25. I think that maybe some of this is a problem of polity. When a denomination “imposes” pastors in from the outside, you can have all sorts of problems that have little to do with Calvinism. Granted, the kind of person a Calvinist seminary may graduate may have an even more difficult time dealing with this than others do. They often find blow ups occurring even in congregations in a culture they are familiar with.

    But I think that even the best of them would say that the battle lines had to be drawn somewhere. Even if they went slow, they would expect that some would turn away from what they had to say, and not on peripheral points, but over the nature of the Gospel itself.

    I say all of this as a Lutheran rather than a Calvinist. But even where I think they are wrong, I can see how certain points of doctrine cannot be spoken of as “theology” and pitted against Jesus. For they see these points as the teachings of Jesus Himself, and would sense that to brush them aside would be to brush Him aside.

    I would rather the experiment be sending young Calvinists from Appalachia into the congregations. Then you have a more controlled experiment. You would know how much of the blow up was Calvinism and how much just culture.

    LikeLike

26. I am only going to be doing the two extremes. The first one (Tom), a late vocation (to use Catholic terminology) has bounced around the country in a secular job for a number of years before recognizing his call to the ministry. The second ( Jeff)grew up in the area and went to seminary straight from college (and probably a small Baptist college at that.)

    Tom scouts the area before starting, probably even during the search process. He finds out the challenges first, and decides to find local mentors in the church quickly. He listens to the old timers and talks to them as well. He gradually makes some changes, and works toward expanding the vision of both the church and the local community. He doesn’t expect miracles, but hopes for them. He has a decent chance of turning the church around and lasting a long time as their pastor.

    Jeff comes in, thinking that his training has given him all the tools that he needs. His first action is to replace the church staff so that all of his co-workers share his viewpoint (and sadly his history) Being more educated than the people, he doesn’t listen to them, but talks in such a fashion that they preceive it as being talked down to. He has big plans, but is unable to get anyone else to agree with them. He is either fired quickly or burnt out almost as quickly. (and decides that it is the gospel that is being offensive without any consideration that it is how he is presenting the Good News.)

    Personally, I suspect that most of the students would fall between Jeff and Tom. Unfortunately I think that they would be closer to Jeff.

    LikeLike

27. As an Arminian (Campbellite branch), I have never understood why a TULIP promoting pastor would be concerned about church discipline. I’ve followed the “Lordship salvation” exchange since MacArthur’s “Gospel According to Jesus.” TULIP, as taught by Ryrie, Chafer, Wager, Hodges, Cocors, Boice, et al, eliminates any need for discipline, since the individual Christian’s life-style has NO effect on his relationship to God.
    Help me understand, please.

    LikeLike

28. I live in rural SC, not quite the Appalachian mountains, but still some of the anti-intellectualism and some of the same vibes. Most of our pastors do not have a seminary degree. Most are older. We do have some young seminarians that have recently come in. They are a mixed bag and vary wildly.

    One is pastoring a church split and is evangelistically Calvinist. He has isolated his church from the rest of the community. They don’t participate in much with the other churches, unless they are leading it. It has almost turned into a cult.

    He has not made many friends with other pastors because he is constantly trying to “convert” church members of other churches. I have to watch the youth at my church because he has tried on several occasions to talk them into leaving our church to join his. He’s single and a school teacher, so he has more free time which he uses to work on youth of other churches.

    I think with your hypothetical, it will all depend on the individual pastor. Much of the broad brush, sweeping comments concerning the arrogance and lack of wisdom of seminary graduates is a bit much. Generalizations can be made about every group.

    Some of your hypothetical pastors will succeed because they will have a heart for the people and for Christ. Others will not because they will have a heart for themselves and for Calvin. The same story is played out in almost every theological and cultural bent.

    LikeLike

29. This would be fun, Michael.

    May I suggest a follow up post. Suppose you could clone 12 Michael Spenser’s and put them in as pastor of these churches, what would happen?

    LikeLike

30. The one’s who have embraced the philosophy that a call to a pastorate should be assumed to be a long term (maybe life-time call), those who will live among the people and be one of them, will probably do okay. Anyone who doesn’t have this perspective will not earn the respect of the people to persevere through s l o w c h a n g e.

    Of course some of them, despite their best, ethical, and patient efforts, will be chewed up & spit out like many pastors before them, because some churches just don’t want a pastor to lead them, they want a servant who knows who is boss and who pays the bills.

    Is it not true that many young ministers from 5 pointers to 1 pointers, have a tendancy to be like bull in a china shop when they get their first church? Should we assume that this problem is unique to young calvinists?
    In many counties, half the churches started out of some sort of a spit and that was long before mohler became president of sbts.

    LikeLike

31. I’ve gone through this scenario in my own church just before I moved away. (the move had nothing to do with the church changes) We were in rural Pennsylvania, but had a LOT of similarities in culture, except the church was Presbyterian-based.

    The church slowly shrank from 60 attendees down to 20 over the course of two years. Of course the remaining 20 were the ones who were truly following God, and the ones who left had hardened hearts and refused to accept the beauty of God’s sovereignty and their own depravity. I think the church has closed/moved in the three years since I moved. The sad part was that a majority of the church already agreed with Calvinism, but weren’t sufficiently devoted to it.

    Because of the different personalities, some of the 12 pastors who came in would shelve the missionary-for-Calvinism attitude and would make a go of it. I doubt there would be a very high percentage, but a couple would benefit for a few years before the pastor had enough of the area and moved away.

    Part of the problem would be that they’re coming in straight from seminary with relatively little real-world experience. There would be extra strain coming in just from the “young whippersnapper” label (and the associated resistance) that would automatically be applied.

    Ignoring the Calvinist part of the incoming pastors, I wouldn’t give them very good odds of lasting more than five years anyway. Not many people care for the ‘hick’ sort of area like I grew up in, or like that of Clay county, KY. Adding Calvinist fervency into the incoming pastors just drops the odds even further. I’ll go in with a guess of one of the pastors in your thought experiment lasting for more than five years.

    LikeLike

32. I am from London, Kentucky and now live in Louisville while attending SBTS. You have so accurately described southeastern Kentucky church life. I grew up and now attend a church that you described. Since I began studying Reformed theology and Calvinism I have been ostracized in many of the churches I have spoke – it is amazing how word spreads in those small communities.

    After finishing my undergraduate degree at a small Bible college in southern Kentucky (which calls Calvinism heresy), I began to pastor a rural congregation in my home town. The church had just lost their pastor to death and was seeped in tradition and “old” ways. Upon entering the church I knew there could be no change for many years. However, I was committed to an expositional pulpit and determined to teach these people the truth of God’s Word. It was heaven for about a year and a half – the people were feed, programs were started and life was good. Until one Sunday morning when I made the statement in a message that we are “hand-picked by God.” Someone in the congregation picked up on that statement and began examining every word of every message I delivered. Not long after that he printed out numerous papers from the internet about Calvinism and began visiting every family in the congregation trying to get me fired. He accused me of heresy, preaching out of books instead of the Bible, not believing in evangelism and missions (even after the first mission programs were started at the church under my leadership), worshipping Jonathan Edwards, and the list could go on and on. He involved the associational director and the news spread like wildfire that I was a Calvinist. His family, for a brief time, even posted a web-site with my picture with Scripture verses about me being a wolf in sheep’s clothing and all who believed in Reformed theology are going to hell. I continued to stand my ground and preach God’s Word. After causing me and the church much grief and turmoil his family left the church but the damage had been done and I was forced to resign the church after two and a half years.

    Therefore, I know exactly what would happen to at least some of those 12 people from seminary. Perhaps they will be like me and become so discouraged and down-trodden that they even contemplate leaving the ministry all together.

    There is an utter disconnect between the local churches and those in seminary. Many in southeastern Kentucky, pastors included, think education is evil and to be avoided at all costs. Then when an educated student comes into the pulpit, preaches a simple expository message, the people are in awe of what the Bible really says. I don’t know how a bridge is to be built between the two but it is necessary if seminary students plan to minister in the local church.

    In my opinion, what most are afraid of in the area I am from is the word Calvinism. They have been taught this is an evil word and anyone believing in such are of the devil. However, when you explain Biblically what Reformed Theology many people say they agree. I have a burden for southeastern Kentucky but have no opportunity at all to teach or share, even in the church I currently attend.

    Sorry for the long comment and thank you so much for the post this conversation must take place!

    Dustin

    LikeLike

33. What if?? What if the mind set changed altogether and there was a realization that “elder” church has a definite niche? That the church does not need to change to the latest whiz bang idea of theology and rather embraced it’s “oldness”? As more and more congregations around them change to draw in a younger crowd and adapt services to appease this generation, the one (or handful) of churches, stays status quo and starts drawing in the elders disillusioned by the change they see in worship elsewhere. Could you have a successful “boomer” church, that preached the gospel, did not do power point bullets, bored people with potlucks and gospel sings, and attracted those older people that were tired of the roller coaster of new church? Is there a niche for an older congregational church that might not attract young people but has steady flow of “elders” finding their way there?

    LikeLike

34. I lean more towards Armenianism, but I believe a strong Calvinist with complimentary skills might be able to recognize an opportunity to be a part of building the Kingdom. In fact, based on the TULIP tenents, he may believe that many in the congregation are the elect. He may believe that he is the vessel God had planned to use to present the irresistable grace of God to those He intended to save.
    If he is for us, then he is not against us.

    LikeLike

35. Imagine if the Pastors going to these churches were all Warrenites who waltzed into church drinking a Latte and wearing Hawaiian shirts.

    You’d probably have a stoning on your hands, or at least the beginnings of a Deliverance-style arthouse film.

    LikeLike

36. Already seen what will happen many times over, exact situation described:

    Most new SB grads are TULIP lovers, not necessarily Law and Gospel, i.e., Word of God lovers. The TULIP will not even come close to a pure proclamation of the Gospel. They “search the Scriptures (diligently and exegetically) and think that by them they have life, but (do not see) that these bear continual witness of Christ”, hence the 8 year Romans expositional sermons as a point of pride (can’t see the forest for the trees).

    They, the incoming pastors, will analyze the poor doctrinal state of the folks, they will see poor “moral” results, they will not conclude the Gospel, as in real 200 proof Gospel needs to be preached and definitely not continuously. Oh they will call what they do preaching the “gospel” or “the whole council of God” (warning flag meaning NO category for Law and Gospel AT ALL). They will never understand the Gospel is the power, is for the Christian, should be preached every Sunday, and NEVER are the sacraments Gospel but opinions of the Law. They will, being good S. Baptist, see a need to “purify the church” because the roles are “packed with easy believism confessions/converts”…and after all if the church on earth MUST consist of “the regenerate” only…well you got to get about doing it some how and there’s simply NO room for the Gospel in such a formula because free grace is well too free. And general morality of some form will be the “marker” whereby they wet their finger in the air to see what’s up, since morality is the problem, they’ll march straight back to the law SOME HOW. Ergo, the TULIP will become the “new big Law stick” used to “push the will of the folks”. Not everybody being elect will be the ‘law stick’ to ‘make converts’ “regenerate”.

    What could happen? At length they could be challenged as to authority over more or less trivial issues. The pastor will then detect and confuse this with a challenge to theology/doctrine and “make a stand”. He will think he is being “persecuted” for the Gospel, but he’s NOT because he’s NEVER preaching it. The pulpit will then become slowly the ‘soap box’. Eventually he’ll be forced to concede or leave, most leave at this point. He will swear to the next church and his buddies he was ‘cast out for the gospel’, but in fact he was thrown out because they didn’t like his law more than their law. In short he will have been thrown out for nothing whatsoever, certainly not the Gospel. But he will retain his bragging rights to sure up his belief he was “on fire for the Lord”.

    Will it work? Not normally. Except in the exceedingly RARE occasion, I know of ONE personally, in which a pastor/elder recognized the problem was a complete lack of Gospel preaching AND every Sunday. In such cases a small congregation will arise and struggle against the tide, BUT they will be accused of being a “cult” or “Lutheran” (seen it personally).

    Can these churches be turned around? Not the TULIP lovers coming out of southern. However, yes, again if the Gospel is recognized as missing constantly, and the pastor recognizes that the church, any church is, gasp, full of sinners STILL, REAL sinners and not pretend sinners, and recognize that the Law kills and the Gospel makes alive EVEN unto doing of good works. The Gospel is the power, but not the TULIP nor Puritan law. If you have say a Ken Jones, Yes. Otherwise, don’t hold your breath!

    Are these the men to do it? NO! Emphatically. I speak from experience.

    What will be the key factors in success or failure? The Gospel period. Once the SB realize that THIS is the problem, the 1. Lack of it 200 proof Gospel and 2. Not being done every single Sunday (you have to wonder why the word “Benediction” on the worship bulletins is even retained anymore) and NOT “purifying the church” by making sure they only have “believers”. Until then, the Titanic’s destiny remains the same.

    Larry

    LikeLike

37. My experience is more with young college-educated Pentecostals who go back home to churches where there isn’t a huge premium put on education. Even though they’re coming from the very same theological background, they almost immediately hit a cultural clash. The prevailing attitude among the uneducated is typically “We don’t need someone with book-learning; we need someone with the Holy Spirit.” After all, they’ve been doing just fine without the book-learning… so far.

    But in your scenario…

    What’s going to happen? The young pastors are gonna think they’re God’s gifts to these churches. They’ll come and try to “fix” these folks and turn them into the hypothetical congregation they’ve always dreamt of serving as they plodded through seminary.

    What could happen? They could start by standing back and observing the church and how it works, and then make changes only as they saw graver concerns. But that would take a wisdom beyond the years of the average seminary grad. I wouldn’t hold my breath.

    What won’t happen? Rapid, dramatic change. It’ll be slow. Snail-like.

    Or it’ll happen behind the scenes — some of the pastors may do an end-run around the adults and start a youth service that they hope will one day become the core of a new fellowship, which will eventually overtake the old one as the old-timers pass on. I’ve seen a few churches where just such a 30-year plan is underway. Note, fr’instance, how significantly different the youth-oriented Saturday night rock n’ roll services are from the fogey-oriented Sunday hymn services. Within a decade that church’s fogey services will be gone and Sunday morning will look like Saturday night. This is part of a definite plan by the church’s leadership to slowly push the old-timers aside as they grow the group they really care about. The old-timers eventually realize this and leave, or band together, or die, or quit.

    Will it work? Can these churches be turned around? The end-run scenario does actually work; look at all the churches that are doing it. The slow-change scenario will tax the patience of the more zealous of the young pastors; if they don’t see obvious change within two years they’ll doubt their own convictions, so they feel the need to push, push, push… and risk alienation.

    Are these the men to do it? Not yet. Once they learn to love their congregations more than they love Calvin, or imitate Jesus instead of John McArthur, then they’ll be in a position to create real change. That attitude will be the key to their success — not numbers, not doctrinal purity, not whether they got their way, not whether the church stays together.

    LikeLike

38. Been a long time since I commented on your blog Michael, I think you have opened up a very interesting line of discussion. Although I don’t have the perspective you do on the culture in your area I have often wondered myself how to effectively minister in a region like yours and having experienced only a small bit of it while my family served at OBI I think its all about the approach and, of course, the will of God. I’ve always thought of this issue from my own perspective as a young SBC Calvinist and how I would approach such churches in such settings. And it is interesting to me to consider these issues since I am in the process of interviewing with a church for a pastoral position at a rural church southwest of Louisville. As I’ve thought about it I have come to a couple conclusions that I think will be essential as I go out to serve and hope that others would come to:

    1.) Change takes time (unless you’re a revivalist) and so when bringing change we should take our time. Haste will not serve any minister well. Don’t abandon your convictions but realize that as a Baptist pastor you’re not a king and must work with a congregation of people, if not believers, who, no matter the setting, aren’t likely to respond well to a heavy hand.

    2.) There are non-essentials. Although I am an ardent Calvinist, I don’t think it is legitimate to expect that all believers should agree with me on all matters. A brother in Christ said something to me the other day that I tend to agree with: we should be as moderate as we can be. The idea being, as we discussed it, to take the idea of Christian charity and apply it as broadly as the Bible gives us license to and accepting that charity will lead to unity in a way rigidity simply can not.

    Predictions are tough to make. Knowing the variety of folks at SBTS all of these pastors could fail quite badly if they are the more dogmatically Calvinistic sort or could likely do quite well if they are the Calvinists I know who truly understand grace and how to be gracious. It’s tough to call, but hopefully God will be honored by the service of these men in these churches and that the Gospel will prosper.

    LikeLike

39. Michael:

    I would recommend that your young seminarians need to first be pastors, then preachers. That doesn’t mean that they shelf doctrine; it means they have to live their doctrine. Several great missionaries were Calvinists. Consider the dark frustrations the missionary Hudson Taylor faced. Everything changed for him once he placed his trust in Christ’s strength and provision and not his own. I would hope your hypothetical pastors would have a similar confidence in the soverenty of God. They could then focus on pastoral care, not indoctrination. Preaching would be a means to administer grace, not a graduate study on the book of Romans. They would be able to address engrained problems winsomely, patiently, and courageously. They could let growth happen, rather than trying to force it. They will be able to admit faults and be honest about weaknesses.

    One added recommendation would be what you added to your Sunday sermon: follow the Lamb. Their work needs to be done in the shadow of the cross, in the knowledged of the constant forgiveness of the Lamb and His finished work. That probably sounds more like Luther, but I bet Calvin wouldn’t have a problem with it. From what I have read of Mahaney, I think he would agree.

    LikeLike

40. I just counted and realized I lost a church in there somewhere. Choose your own adventure. Either they all became Seventh Day Adventists, or they started a street mime ministry and grew to 8000 members, and opened 17 different charities for the poor, abused, and down-trodden. With their backing, John MacArthur wins the 2012 presidency. Brian MacLaren steps down from ministry and write a long letter of apology after attending one of their Thursday Night Theology classes. Richard Dawkins becomes a Christian young-earth creationist after the pastor helps him with a flat tire on the highway. Michanel Spencer endorses the Kentucky Statement of Inerrancy under their sponsorship.

    LikeLike

41. How many Calvinist Seminarians does it take to change a light bulb?

    Depends on whether or not the light bulb has been elected for change from the foundation of the lamp.

    Here are some predictions that I am completed unqualified to make.

    Year One:
    2 are fired for attempting to replace the KJV. 2 are fired when their congregations reject the idea of Limited Atonement. 1 resigns to keep his wife from leaving. 1 resigns from simple discouragement of zero progress after 12 months, probably due more to his own lack of tenacity, than any fault of the congregation.

    Year Two:
    Early in the year, a church splits as tension snaps after several months of conflict. The pastor is forced to take a second job since the split church can no longer afford his salary. He never finds the energy to really attend to the church’s needs, and the 17 member congregation nevers grows, but he discovers an enjoyable career in the building trade. The dissenters hired one of the pastors fired last year, but after 3 months, they couldn’t stand him either, and dissolve under the pressure of trying to find a suitable replacement.

    Elsewhere in year 2, a pastor has grown a rather successful youth group. Youth-oriented changes drive away older members of the congregation, and the chuch folds under the loss of their financial support.

    Church #8 loses 20 months of progress when their pastor resigns after admitting a pornography problem.

    Church #9 loses is pastor to a better offer from a larger congregation in central Illinois.

    Year Three:

    The week after VBS, another pastor announces his resignation. Simple burn out. He converts to another denomination.

    Year Four:

    One of the two remaining Pastors successfully engineers a merger with church #8, ending a 15 month succession of interims. The combined congregations either…
    (flip a coin)
    Heads: …Take on the support of a local camping ministry, and rehabilitate it to a successful outreach that server kids and teens for 30 years into the future.
    Tails: …Go to war like the Hatfield’s & Mccoys, never really merging, and split again in the near future.

    Year Five:

    Despite 3-4 years difficulty, the last pastor finally ‘clicked’ mid way through year four. Since then, he’s seen only small growth in the size of the congregation (10% growth, tops), but the level of involvement of the average attendee has doubled. He’s implemented mid-week small group ministries, with over half of Sunday attenders participating. He organizes inter-denominational events every 4 months. He rallied 40 volunteers for Project Angel Tree at Christmas time. He’s opened up the church basement for Alcoholic’s Anonymous meetings.

    Next year, he’ll find out his unwed teenage daughter is pregnant, so I hope he’s cherishing this moment at least…

    LikeLike

42. I live in an area which is very rural and very clan-oriented, so somewhat like KY, but not exact. I also work for an SBC assoc. so I get to see over 40 churches, what works and what doesn’t. There are a few Calvinist churches in the area.

    The Calvinist pastors don’t come from SBTS, but they are young (pre-40s), seminary trained, and have restored expository preaching, church discipline, and the spiritual leadership of the church by godly men. Each church has been different, and required different means to achieve restored health. The main point has not been “lets make these people Calvinist”. In fact, the church I attend had non-Calvinist elders up until about two years ago when they became convinced after being in leadership. They have emphasized missions and direct evangelism, cooperation in the local Assoc, but an aversion to VBS, and other Lifeway programs.

    Most of the opposition to the Calvinist theology of these pastors has been from other pastors in the Assoc., FreeMasons, and not from church members. The seminary trained pastors have been less intrusive, and more even-handed in their approaches. Our region has an area of controversy over this issue, but it is mainly from the self-convinced, bi-vocational reformer who has no accountability that we get the most trouble. I don’t affiliate with the type though. Those pastors usually attract a small, dedicated following, and denounce things.

    Like all things, it is a mixed bag. Sometimes the theological emphasis brings in people who were just waiting for a Calvinist church so they could play Reformer too. They usually don’t last long either, because these younger pastors are too progressive on issues involving worship and music.

    LikeLike

43. Let me clear of what I’m up to hear: I want to hear from a variety of people about what young Calvinists are going to do in real churches, and these declining mountain churches are as real as it gets. If the claims of SBC Calvinists regarding church health, evangelism, discipline, elders, etc is going to have any traction- or utterly fail- this thought experiment gives a clear case of “show me.”

    But no issue with what you are saying. I may comment on associational approaches later.

    LikeLike

44. Michael.

    Your thought experiment is not absurd. I delight in this kind of ekklesiological think-tanking. That it’s possiblities have to be ruled absurd, is what troubles me.

    LikeLike

45. Randy: Appreciate the input. SE Ky, Clay Co is what I am describing, and I’m on target with the majority of the churches in the association here. It’s dire.

    And I am not saying this in any way as plausible. Calling my thought experiment absurd is sortof missing the point. This would never happen, but that’s not the point.

    LikeLike

46. I came straight from a Southern Baptist College to the Smoky Mts in 1975. I served as a liaison between the SBC and their Home Missions resort ministry and the country church people, attempting to draw the locals into the avant-garde outreach methods of Day Camps, Campground sing-a-longs, and puppet shows. Proudly, that ministry exists to this day. The people were reluctant to reach out to the passing through tourists at first, but by the time we left were preaching to and leading music for large crowds at early services in campgrounds. I still consider many of those folks as the best humans I have ever known. Authentic lovers of God and each other in ways I will never match.

    Michael, your generalizations of the Mt. folk is both accurate and flawed. I attended over 60 churches in the two years I served and found the churches like those you describe, and those whose spiritual profundity and depth of compassion impacted my life for the positive to this day. Some scared me. The “clannish” of some would better be described as “family closeness” in ways that most other modern churches will never know.

    There were “hard-shell”, “missionary (cooperative)”, & “independent fundamentalist” variations scattered all over the hills and hollers. Just as the Baptist institutions of higher learning that have “deevangelized” themselves into retrocalvinism, many of the churches like the ones you mention will likewise die a Shakers death.

    The absurdity of the prospect of this actually happening is likened to Roman Catholic priests “pastoring” Greek Orthodox Churches. Not likely. That all this is has to be so unlikely is deeply disturbing to me.

    LikeLike

47. Great stuff Stephen. Very encouraging. If you ever want to speak in the chapel here at OBI, I’d love to have you down.

    I hope the rest of the SBC – and SBTS- is listening to you on this one.

    prayers and peace.

    LikeLike

48. i am 5 classes away from graduating from sbts. i am less than 2 months away from turning 30 years old. and i am about to complete my first year as pastor of a very small very rural church in northwestern ky. (about 30 miles north of louisville).
    like the scenario you presented, the community’s median income is more than $10,000.00 per/yr. below the national average with a sky high divorce rate. there is only one couple older than my wife and i attending the church that is not in their 70’s.

    its been almost a year since i have arrived at this church that i love. i have been preaching through the gospel of john for 7 months (averaging about a chapter a week w/ some interruptions). in sunday school we have gone through both the sunday school material from lifeway that they love, as well as having discussed what it is we believe and why we believe it (having gone through the bf&m). we have discussed what a church is, what a member is and isn’t, and what the church can expect from its members and what the members should expect from the church.

    we have had a church clean up day, a fish fry, have gone visiting and a handful of potlucks.
    there has been an interdenominational “singin'” hosted by our church.

    in almost a year we have had one young girl in her late 20’s who had stopped coming begin attending regularly. there are about 3 other members who had stopped coming that are now coming sporadically.

    we have gone through the church roll and removed members who have passed away, former pastor’s and their families, and those who are known to have joined other churches. for the rest who do not attend we have divided names and contact info and are in the process of contacting them on a regular basis.

    the people who come love the lord and want to grow and learn, even though their bodies are old, weak, and often sick. – i couldnt ask for a more wonderful group.
    i could care less if they know who piper, sproul, macarthur, et. al are. they love the lord, and as long as i am there, i pray to be used to foster and nurture that love.

    i have several friends who are or will soon be recent graduates from sbts whose theological leanings would tend toward what you describe. but i don’t know any who fit the full description of the picture you have painted. perhaps you have an influx of the (from my observations over the past four years) few who are in your scope of influence.

    but i can only speak for myself.
    my church is not my experiment. they are god’s people, and i pray to be a good steward of them …whether they know (or experience) what a puritan is or not.

    LikeLike

49. Ranger has got the idea of this post!

    Great response.

    Deb: That was why I included Stetzer. Good call.

    I think the question of working with EXISTING churches is a vital one for these young Calvinists. It’s going to determine a LOT of how they are perceived and received.

    LikeLike

50. If these hypothetical new pastors take Ed Stetzer’s missional approach, wouldn’t that mean that they will be trying to enter into the mindset and culture of the people to whom they are ministering?

    LikeLike

51. Many of these young Calvinist pastors coming out of SBTS (and other seminaries) are almost militant about their interpretations. I admire their passion greatly, disagree with their doctrines sometimes, but know from some friends that they are very entrenched in their beliefs and have a great desire to proclaim them to others.

    Oil and water don’t mix, and I hope that in their Baptist history classes they gleaned enough from Leon McBeth’s work that they learned that no matter how you rephrase it or talk about elder leadership or pastor led churches, ultimately (especially in rural contexts) Baptist churches are congregational.

    I come from Texas and we are rigorously independent. Many of my friends who are believers have a desire to study God’s word and are open to new ideas…but we are still very independent. If I understand it correctly, many Appalachian people are the same way. For some one to come in and immediately try to force a new understanding of faith on me would make me react negatively, even if what they were saying was true.

    Here would be my predictions for what would happen:

    1. Three of the pastors would have quit within two years due to frustration and (from their perception) the “hardened hearts and deaf ears” of the congregations.

    2. Three of the pastors would have been fired (and most likely rather quickly). These are the more independent congregations who are opposed to the new, but also opposed to being repeatedly fed ideas that they are unfamiliar with.

    3. Three of the pastors would have caused church splits. Some people would have caught their passion and vision and would follow their interpretations of the text. Others would have moved on…most likely to one of the churches mentioned above that is back under more familiar leadership.

    4. Three of the pastors would see “success” in their ministry. The passion of these young pastors is appealing, especially to a younger generation. As such, these churches will “grow” by taking the younger families from other local churches, as well as possibly absorbing the Calvinistic church splits mentioned above in point 3.

    5. Finally, I believe that few, if any, of these churches would have much impact on the unbelieving community. This isn’t due to their Calvinism (which can grow churches as easily as Arminianism or any other system in my opinion), but due to the attitudes of the local areas. In rural Texas, if you aren’t “churched,” there’s a reason and it’s not because you incorrectly interpreted the depths of God’s sovereignty. It’s because of an issue that Calvinism doesn’t directly address.

    My question in response would be what would happen in this community if a few emerging, missional leaders moved into town and started emerging communities? I wonder how “successful” they would be, and how they would be perceived by either the former KJV only pastors, or the current Calvinist pastors?

    LikeLike

52. Because it is all but impossible for the average TULIP preacher to adjust to felt and real needs, but rather to “preach the truth”, all that would happen is for the people to feel that their mode of relating to God would being completely undermined. The locals would feel that the TULIPS are condecending and treat them with contempt, showing them no respect whatsoever because of their lack of edjucation and not excepting their “gospel”. The frustration on both sides would reach a fervent pitch befor the game would be up.
    Sadly the need for someone to help guide and and gently form their emotions with scriptur and use the strengths that are there would be missed entirely. The result would be a greater gulf and suspicion between them and the outside world.

    LikeLike

53. What will happen will be directly related to the humility of the 12 Calvinists.

    If they are the proud type that are more evangelists for TULIP than the gospel then there is going to be trouble. (Someone is typing “Calvinism is the Gospel” right now) To come in and attempt to turn an entire church into followers of TULIP immediately would be disastrous. I can see it now…weeks 1-5=the 5 points and Week 6=the new pastor’s last day.

    But if the pastor comes in humble and is patient in revealing what he believes and patient with his congregation. He can revive this congregation and maybe even eventually get some “converts” (I hate that that would matter) to his brand of theology and more importantly eventually begin the process of spiritual transformation needed for this church to continue existing.

    It would be an incredibly difficult journey for both the pastor and the congregation. The pastor no matter how against an invitation he is cannot just come in and yank the centerpiece of his church’s worship service out from under them. Until he has earned their trust he will not be able to make that HUGE of a change. Even then it will be a ridiculously hard battle.

    The odds are not on anybodies’ side in this case. It will take a special pastor and a special congregation to endure such a transformation.

    Is it possible…I think so.
    Is it likely…Nope.

    LikeLike

54. So who’s the “hog” and who’s the guy with “manners?” 🙂

    LikeLike

55. Normally, hypotheticals do not get my juices flowing, but for some strange reason this one does. Being from Nashville, the first image that comes to mind is the old Ray Stevens’ song, Mississippi Squirrel Revival. Next, the old saying, Why shouldn’t you try to teach a hog table manners? Because the effort will wear you out, and it annoys the hog. That’s the best I can do on such short notice.

    LikeLike

56. Are these the men to do it?

    hmmmm……perhaps after a couple of years of real-world experience….maybe, but not without significant change and flexibility in the minds of these men about who the church is and what its purpose is.

    LikeLike

57. You described the American version of what Martyn Lloyd-Jones came into in the late ’20’s. South Wales was a rural country with high unemployment, low literacy, and a moribund church that was turning to gimmicks in the vain hope of attracting and/or keeping the young people.

    Taking his cue from the Welsh Calvinistic Methodists, Lloyd-Jones preached long doctrinal sermons, reinstated the prayer and ‘experience’ meetings, prayed for Revival, and saw hundreds come to Christ and form an evangelistic and caring community.

    While these methods do not produce Revival, God has often blessed them to revive His Church. If the pastors you described give themselves wholly to the ministry of the Word and to prayer, and commit themselves to the little, poor, and clannish churches, perhaps they too would see the mighty acts of God. ‘With God all things are possible’.

    LikeLike

58. It’s quite possible that these 12 small churches become 24 even smaller churches, as some members decide to split and form a new church and some, though they don’t agree with Calvinism, stay because this is where Grandpa and Grandma went to church and they aren’t going to leave.

    Unfortunately, it seems that Calvinism for some and Revivalism for others has become more important than Jesus.

    LikeLike

59. Having deep roots in eastern Kentucky, I can verify that you described the current environment very well. It’s a great question.

    I believe the initial reaction would be a strong rejection of anything new. Not because it is different, but because the messenger isn’t “one of them”. In the mountains, there is one superseding virtue – loyalty. They aren’t fond of change, but will accept it occasionally if one of their own introduces it. As you alluded to, outsiders are automatically looked upon with suspicion. The first question someone asks you is, “What’s your dad’s name?” It is hard to overstate the invisible “clanishness” of these people.

    A major variable is the social change that is inevitable that will coincide with the eventual death of these churches. The social structure that fostered these churches is likely to weaken as these folks fade away. It is very possible that the next generation of locals will be much more open to an outsiders point of view.

    What is likely to happen is that these churches will die. Seminary graduates will be much more inclined to plant new churches, rather than to attempt to transform the rural congregations that you have described. There will be fewer and fewer rural churches. Younger couples, even those that live in deeply rural areas, will be inclined to attend a church near Wal-Mart and McDonald’s. Reality is, that most of these churches have been dead for a while; their members have simply refused to bury them.

    I can’t wait to hear other viewpoints on this.

    LikeLike