Too Much Heaven?

Posted byChaplainmikePosted inCommentary, Post-Evangelicalism

(Yes, Virginia, there’s a review of N.T. Wright’s Surprised by Hope coming very soon.)

I grew up and was formed in a version of the Christian tradition that practiced a remarkably simple form of Christianity.

It was about going to heaven.

This life was preparation for heaven. God was preparing a place called heaven with lots of mansions. People who accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior by praying a prayer to ask him into their heart had their names written in a book reserving a place in heaven. One day, they would die (or Jesus would return) and go to heaven. Later, they would get their new bodies and live in a city described- literally- in the book of Revelation as a super-sized cube with streets of gold. In that city they would be with all their friends, relatives and Bible characters forever, where they would worship Jesus for all of eternity without illness, pain or death.

If you accepted Jesus- ever, even once- you were going to heaven because once saved, always saved. If you didn’t accept Jesus you were going to hell. Any day at any time, Jesus would return and take his people to heaven in the rapture, leaving the lost people to be ruled over by the anti-Christ until Jesus returned to judge the world and end everything.

The people who were going to heaven went to churches where this is what you talked about all the time. You sang about it. You read about it in the Bible. Preachers preached about it. Nothing was more important. The reason you were on this earth was to “witness” to other people, which meant present them with the plan of how to get to heaven. If they prayed to go to heaven, then you were a “soul winner,” which was the best thing you could ever be in life.

Christians were happier than other people because they were going to heaven. They said “No” to everything the devil wanted them to do, because they were going to heaven, so they didn’t sin as much. They enjoyed church more than anything else, and they went to church as much as possible.

Life on this earth was worthwhile only because of heaven later. If you were a real Christian, like Paul, you wanted to leave this world and go to heaven as soon as possible. In fact, when Paul was caught up to the third heaven, he no longer wanted to be on earth, but to be in heaven. People who were in car wrecks and came back from death always had stories about heaven that included how much they wanted to go there and not go back to earth. But if God made you go back, you’d do it for a little while.

This was the Christianity that shaped and formed me. I heard it preached again this week, plainly and forcefully. It made me realize that I am not the same person I used to be. This is not the center and heart of my faith any more.

I don’t think about heaven as the primary reason for my faith. My faith is centered around Jesus and what it means to know God through Jesus now. I am a person to whom Jesus said “The Kingdom of God is upon you,” and I believe it. Jesus is king, now and forever. I believe in heaven and hell, and I always tell those who hear me preach and teach that God will take his people to a new creation, while those who refuse God’s love and forgiveness will go to hell.

Heaven is where God is. It is as close as a heartbeat. It is the center of reality, not a place “up there,” but the reality I cannot see with my senses but which nonetheless surrounds me. I believe Jesus and his kingdom will “appear” and we’ll realize how close heaven was to earth all along.

When I think of death, I think of going to be with God, to rest in him; to be safe in him and his love. I look forward to the new creation and to resurrection, but it is so far outside of my ability to conceive of it all that I never try to understand much about it. Big books on heaven bore me. Near death experience books actually offend me. They make me feel manipulated.

When someone implies that real Christians want to go to heaven now, I have absolutely no resonance with that sentiment at all. I am a person of this world, and the goodness of God that I know has come to me in the land of the living. I believed in God’s promises for a new creation, but I don’t want to go there now. I want to see my dad and mom again, yes. But I want to be with my beautiful wife and wonderful children, go to work, read a good book, enjoy a ball game and walk my dog.

When it comes to this subject, give me Judaism any day.

All the beauty I know of heaven, I know through the beauty of this world. I can’t reject this world and understand anything of a new creation. All I know of love, I know through the love I have experienced in this world. My body, my mind, my emotions—all are at home in this world. If I was made for another world, that world is not found in rejecting this world, but in the longings for things this world cannot give or satisfy.

Is there too much heaven in some versions of Christianity? Was Jesus as much about heaven as my faith tradition told me? Is rejecting this world and longing for heaven the normal Christian life? Is there something wrong with those of us who are rooted in this world and find out joy in God here now?

Do churches that concentrate on “winning souls for heaven” really represent the Gospel of Jesus?

I’ve got more questions and comments, but that should get us started.

52 thoughts on “Too Much Heaven?”

  3. I certainly enjoy many aspects of this life (just check my garage for evidence!!!). That said, there are a lot of trends in the world these days that I’m starting to feel too tired to fight. So much unrighteousness and cynical selfishness in the world; so much evil. Sometimes we nearly despair of hope for our daughters’ futures… At times like that, I find myself weary of this life, and long to sink into the comforting arms of my Savior, where I won’t have to carry these burdens any more. Let it be the next generation’s problem; I just want to go home.

    Is this wrong?

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  4. “gold crowns with a jewel for each person we led to Jesus”

    I have heard this said. Do you know where it comes from? — Jeff

    Probably from the Wretched Urgency shtick that God will judge/reward believers ONLY on how many Souls They’ve Won (TM). The more Souls You Saved (TM), the more bragging rights and one-upmanship.

    As for everything else, including “…my beautiful wife and wonderful children, go to work, read a good book, enjoy a ball game and walk my dog”,
    your body groaning with mortality, and the cosmos waiting for renewal?
    “It’s All Gonna Burn (TM).”

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  5. I was also brought up with the idea of streets of gold and mansions. Mine was going to be “a gold one that’s silver lined”. Imagine my disappointment when I found out the word really meant simply dwelling places or rooms. — Fred

    Well, “rooms” does fit the imagery better than “mansions” — “My Father’s house has many rooms”.

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  6. (Whenever I talked about whether we’d need a Bathroom of Life I was rebuked for mocking sacred things.) — K.W.Leslie

    I got the same treatment for describing the doctrine of the Incarnation as “God Almighty having to squat down and take a crap behind a bush beside a dirt road in Galilee.”

    Actually, I’d get one of two responses — total agreement or immediate Flesh-to-Pile-of-Rocks.

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  7. As a Christian who doesn’t believe that salvation includes heaven-going at all (and I know what some of you are thinking… gasp!), I find it interesting to see how the church trends swing back and forth between a focus heaven-going and a focus on the (I believe, more Biblically-based) doctrine of the resurrection and the coming Kingdom on earth. I wonder if this is part of the beginning of a more resurrection-oriented trend in orthodox Christian circles?

    For anyone who is wondering how a Bible-believing Christian could possibly not believe that the righteous go to heaven, you may wish to check out .

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  8. To bring it back to the present Christian world, I see (not so extreme) examples every day. In the Evangelical paradigm, everything has to be “spiritualized” to be of value. Every event of life must be interrupted as via the hand of God or that of Satan to have any meaning. — J Michael Jones

    Why cannot “every event of life” just BE?

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  9. When I was in the Navigators in college, we were constantly reminded that our studies (at a secular university) were “worldly.” We were told to go out on evangelism or do Bible Study instead of studying academics and God will give you “A’s.” — J Michael Jones

    When I was in college (late Seventies), the Navigators had a rep for being the most in-your-face Wretched-Urgency “Witnesses!” and having the highest burnout rate.

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  10. Pingback: Kiwi and an Emu.

  11. This has always been confusing to me as well. So much in the Bible is about PROCESS – the turning away and returning to GOD, the erring and then understanding GOD, and finally, the joining with GOD. I wonder how we got from the process of turning and returning to GOD to only wanting Heaven? As the author and posters have mentioned, there seems to be a lot going on around us here – so much so as it seems doubtful to me that we should “Ignore it” and think only of a final destination. I might even go so far as to say (as others have) that our Faith is a search – without our full understanding of our destination.

    Likely, “Heaven” is far more than our current (still being earthly/human) understanding could allow us to comprehend. Further, if we fixate on “Heaven” – we have to admit at some time that we are fixating on something we have only imagined. (Not that heaven is imaginary, only that our ideas of it – though inspired by Gospel – are limited by our current comprehension.) When presented with the genuine article, we may not imediately recognize it, in that it is not likely to conform to our imaginings.

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  12. Fair enough. I went back and reread the post, a bit more carefully this time, and you’re right. Thanks.

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  14. Can’t it be both? Can’t I enjoy this world – the love of my wife and children, a good book, a long walk on a cool morning, time with friends, my favorite music, an afternoon at the ballbark, and occassionally a good beer – and rejoice that heaven awaits too?

    I agree that there is often an overemphasis upon heaven to the exclusion of the time I enjoy with God on earth. I agree that we ought to see ourselves as citizens of the Kingdom of God which is a present reality. However, heaven is important too.

    Today I spent the day at the beside of a dying friend and parishioner in my church. When he breathed his last breath and we watched the life leave his body, I can assure you that we were very grateful for the reality of heaven too.

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  16. Michael,
    I appreciate your post, there are so many frustrations in this world, due to man’s sin and the devil’s strategies, that I find it hard to settle in here. I understand that Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life,” followed with a huge miracle in the here and now (for Mary, Martha, and especially Lazarus), and He came that we would have abundant life here and now, but I really can’t wait until Christ takes me to be with Him. And then when He comes back, we come back with him to fix this world.

    Those who have the hope of heaven should be the most light-emitting and salty people on this earth. Our hope should percolate into the things of this life; we should be the most healing and preserving people on this earth. As people in the Vineyard like to put it: the kingdom, which will have its full expression in the future, is breaking in now.

    What about the people who are miserable, and not because they are miserable people to be around, just that they have very heavy burdens? The hope of heaven is great treasure, especially for people in such situations.

    Random thought: one vision of heaven that I have is where people can rock-climb, and if they fall it just tickles.

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  17. Re: Rick Frueh’s comment:
    “I’m still lookin for someone who is too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good. I think he rooms with the missing link.”

    Rick, I would have to say that I disagree with you . . . however I recognize that we may be talking about two very different things but using the same terms (like you may be saying no one can love God too much which is certainly true). I actually believe being “too Heavenly minded” is epidemic in American Evangelicalism.

    To define what I’m trying to say, I will start with a couple of (non-present Christian) extreme examples. The first one is the atrocities of the “Christian” Dark Ages. The second is the Islamic radicalism of today, where you can strap bombs to your body, blow up a bus-load of little children, and do it all for a “Heavenly cause.” To them this world (along Dualistic lines) is so inferior that being with 40 virgins in Heaven today is the only thing that really matters.

    To bring it back to the present Christian world, I see (not so extreme) examples every day. In the Evangelical paradigm, everything has to be “spiritualized” to be of value. Every event of life must be interrupted as via the hand of God or that of Satan to have any meaning. In this point of view, the laws of nature (not with a capital “N” but the nature created by God), psychology, sociology, history (unless it is history in the Bible), art (especially art done by nonChristians) are all seen as worthless when compared to the spiritual.

    When I was in the Navigators in college, we were constantly reminded that our studies (at a secular university) were “worldly.” We were told to go out on evangelism or do Bible Study instead of studying academics and God will give you “A’s.”

    A recent example is a man having a psychotic break during the middle of our church service. Having worked in medicine for 26 years, I’ve seen this many times. The man needed psychiatric help and probably meds (because of a brain that has been tainted by the Fall).

    When the man started out screaming terms about Jesus, people thought it was a “work of the Holy Spirit,” and they were clapping and cheering. Then, when he started to shout the “F” word and telling the entire church to “Go to Hell” and then punched the pastor in the face . . . everyone was confident he was demon possessed. No one would even consider a malfunction of the brain (of which there has been a tremendous amount of research)and his history of psychosis . . . except me.

    Mike

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  18. My upbringing was exactly like yours as well. Kudos on the simple, and concise telling.

    I began to wonder if I had no free will to leave Christ after being saved, I also wondered why ‘once saved always saved’ so often led to most people like myself doing mostly what we wanted to, since “we knew where we were going”. I wondered about those phrases such as “the kingdom of God is at hand” (or within), and “I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.” That sounded like beginning here and now.

    Anyway, I could go on, but I think maybe the Orthodox (and I’m not one) have it right with the concept of “theosis” a process beginning here as we ‘wear our faith’-yet miss the mark, and culminating in the bodily resurrection. It’s like a country song played backwards, the creation finally becomes what GOD intended. And Lord yes, don’t I groan for that some days, especially as I look this old world as it is now.

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  19. “Do churches that concentrate on “winning souls for heaven” really represent the Gospel of Jesus?”

    Honestly, I don’t see much difference between the writings of the NT world and the Church fathers and today’s evangelical emphasis on salavation and the afterlife.

    Maybe that’s because I pastor a megachurch and want to feel reassured in our outreach-focused approach to ministry, but I don’t think so.

    Brian Jones
    http://www.brianjones.com

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  21. One thing that moved me along, so to speak, was seeing people who had prayed something like what I call the infamous “sinner’s prayer,”… — Pastor M

    Over at Slacktivist, they call “the infamous ‘sinner’s prayer'” model of Salvation “Saying the Magic Words”. They have a point; when I was getting to be a notch on half a dozen Bibles back in the Seventies, I was told you had to Say the Words Exactly So or your Salvation wouldn’t be valid. That sounds like a magic(k) spell to me.

    And such overemphasis on the Moment of Salvation (sometimes proudly reciting the exact year/month/day/hour/minute/second) neglects ANY previous prep-work or growth process afterwards. And damns anybody who grew into the faith through gradual cathechism (like I did) with no exact memorable Damascus Road moment. In my Church (RCC) both types of entry into the faith — gradual and abrupt — are considered valid.

    …but gave little or no evidence of being in ministry here and now to people in need–the only thing that really mattered was going to heaven when we/they die. — Pastor M

    My writing partner (a burned-out pastor from rural PA) tells me where he is, pastors’ widows end up eating out of dumpsters. All the Young Earth Creationism, Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist, and Righteously scolding/denouncing/boycotting everything in-between, and your pastors’ widows have to eat out of dumpsters.

    Tell me again how THAT spread through the Roman Empire like fire over a lake of gasoline?

    The only need, as Michael, noted was to get some sort of “decision” so that others could go to heaven. — Pastor M

    And so the Witness (TM) could get another notch on his Bible and the resulting brownie points with God, assuaging his “Wretched Urgency” to Win as many Souls as possible. (And more than you or anyone else, Ha! Ha!) After which, you cut him loose, cut another notch on your Bible, and go on to “Save” the next one. No followup, no guidance for growth afterwards.

    Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. After becoming a notch on half a dozen Bibles that way, you start to wonder if it was all BS from day one.

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  22. This narrative was very close to my own as a Mormon, although in heaven there would only be Mormons, and in a lesser heaven would be all the well-intentioned Christians, buddhists, agnostics, muslims, etc.,…. at least all those who weren’t converted to Mormonism in the afterlife. The only people who really went to a Hell’s Hell (outer darkness) were people who were Mormon who changed allegiances. Even murderers and whoremongers went to the least of all heavens, which still had a glory like unto the “stars” and “adminstered unto by the Holy Ghost.”

    Anyhoo, as I matured I became disaffected with my faith. Sure there were theological, philosophical and historical reasons, but it was ultimately a basic disconnect of faith with my heart and brain. It seemed we, as Mormons, were going thru a lot of motions — killing time — till we could be with God and our loved ones again some day.

    As I lost my faith, I lost _all_ my faith, cutting my hope down to a loss in all things spiritual. I self-defined myself for years as a materialist humanist, sympathetic somewhat with agnosticism and deism. Eventually the pendulum swung back, largely through a major marriage crisis. I found I still _wanted_ a more vibrant and tenative faith. I found it in a moderate, grace-inspired, hopeful, the-Kingdom-of-God-can-be-enjoyed-now form of Christianity. I found hope for the life beyond. But my faith in Christ today does not depend on it.

    I wonder if I had been raised as Michael S. was where I would be now…

    Thanks for an illuminating post!

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  23. I can certainly understand, for quite a while I shared your concerns Michael. To some extent, I still do. But after spending two years as an undergrad in a major secular university certainly changed that for me. The lostness here…incredible and almost unbearable for me after my first semester. I remember a day where I was meeting with my mentor and I remarked to him that before that day, I didn’t really understand people who couldn’t wait to get to heaven. After that day, I was so ready to be done with this place.

    Now that attitude isn’t terribly helpful in the long run, but for me the day I get to heaven (whatever it is) will certainly be a joyous day.

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  24. I was also brought up with the idea of streets of gold and mansions. Mine was going to be “a gold one that’s silver lined”. Imagine my disappointment when I found out the word really meant simply dwelling places or rooms. 🙂 We also had the concept of the New Jerusalem sort of hovering above the earth. I guess there would be some sort of heavenly escalator. Or, maybe we would just fly.

    As I’ve grown older and closer to heaven, I’ve seen that the emphasis in Scripture is on the Kingdom with its now and not yet characteristics. Our goal should not be to escape earth to go to our “real home”, but should be on deepening our relationship with God and bringing his kingdom to bear in every area of life.

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  25. Mike Taylor is bang on here. Anyone who hasn’t read it should pick up a copy of C S Lewis’ ‘The Great Divorce’ – a real eye-opener on this entire subject.

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  27. “According to Eduard Thurneysen, the world into which we shall come in the future of Jesus Christ is not another world, but his world, this heaven and this earth, both having passed away and become new. These forests and these fields, these cities and streets, these people will be there in the showplace of redemption.” Quoted from page 231 of Berkouwer’s “The Return of Christ.”

    Berkouwer continues on 234,
    “The new earth is never a strange and futuristic fantasy, but a mystery that penetrates into this existence and will make itself manifest there, where steadfast love and faithfulness meet, where righteousness and peace kiss each other (Ps. 85:10), and where the lines that seem blurred to us now will come clearly into focus. This perspective includes a not of warning. It points to the hidden manna, the white stone with a new name written on it (Rev. 2:17). It will be SPIRITUAL; “the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come'”(Rev. 22:17). But at the same time it will be EARTHLY and it will be on earth that the voice will sound: ‘Let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.'”

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  29. Hi Michael some of your descriptions of Heaven remind of C.S. Lewis last Narnia book. In it the children see places of this world in Heaven, only they see the “real” version of them. It is very much like Plato’s belief in forms, where things of this earth are just copies of the originals which exist in Eternity.

    I look forward to Heaven because our experience here is full of pain, I long for justice and peace that is just not complete in this side of existence. But we do get our own Heaven here by being united to God, we taste and see and are overwhelmed. Something in our nature cannot take it in as much as we want to.

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  30. This subject of “going to heaven” is really what drew me into Anabaptism. Life counts here, in more than a bean-counting, scale-tipping sort of way. So I am an Anabaptist/Quaker hedonist. I get Earth 2.0 in the next life. There is nothing wrong with loving life as a human.

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  31. If heaven is the objective accomplishment of one’s faith … then I propose that that faith is ill placed. However, if eternal relationship with God – with the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit – is the objective accomplishment of one’s faith then this is precisely what Jesus came to provide. Heaven is simply the “location” of God. Therefore “Heaven” is simply a tactical goal for the strategic goal of relationship with God.

    Far too often in life – whether our temporal life or eternal one – we lose site of the strategic goal and get lost in the tactical details.

    If you call yourself Christian, never forget that you are called into a relationship with God through Christ. Not to be a resident of a location but to be a brother/sister of the King.

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  32. Pingback: Living for heaven. « The Kibitzer

  33. As usual, it’s all in C. S. Lewis. What do they teach them in these schools? 🙂

    “There have been times when I think that we do not desire heaven; but more often I have found myself wondering whether, in our heart of hearts, we have ever desired anything else. All the things that have ever deeply possessed your soul have been but hints of it — tantalising glimpses, promises never quite fulfilled, echoes that died away just as they caught your ear” — The Problem of Pain.

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  34. I grew up in a situation similar to Michael’s, also in Kentucky, and have had a similar change of thinking. One thing that moved me along, so to speak, was seeing people who had prayed something like what I call the infamous “sinner’s prayer,” but gave little or no evidence of being in ministry here and now to people in need–the only thing that really mattered was going to heaven when we/they die. The only need, as Michael, noted was to get some sort of “decision” so that others could go to heaven. As others have noted, the end of Revelation contains a different vision. I have just started Surprised by Hope and look forward to reading more.

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  35. The Scriptures promise “eternal life” (Jn.3:16) and so sonce we see through a glass darkly everyone attaches some specifics to what that will look like. No harm – no foul.

    But there are many verses in the New Testsment that point to a longing to be with Christ “which is far better”. Desiring to be “clother with immortality” is a “consumation devoutly to be wished”. “Looking for that Blessed Hope” and “Looking for a city” and “My life is hid with Christ in God” and on and on.

    The colloquial characterizations of heaven should not remove our hunger, however tempered, to be with Christ forever. It is good to remember as well that there are many believers throughout the world whose life is not something akin to enjoying walking their dog. We western believers sometimes entertain a myopic view of the Christian life and with that we come to environmentally captured conclusions.

    To many of our brothers and sisters who suffer greatly the coming of Christ and the entrance into God’s eternal dwellingplace is their constant furture hope. However we describe it just His visual and manifested presence will make this world and our lives here be as Paul said “dung”.

    Many unbelivers enjoy their earthly lives, that is not why I got saved. I got saved because of Jesus and I wanted to go to heaven. That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it!! 🙂

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  36. My greatest issue with “dwelling post life in heaven”, is trying to understand exactly what part of my being could possibly exist in a non-material state (i’s certainly very hard to identify any part of a human as being immaterial, or spirit). Nancy Murphy’s (and others) work on theologies of the soul couple with NT Wright’s focus on material creation are starting to break down these dualistic notions. However, I still struggle to come to grips with Nt Wright’s intermediate place – becasue it still relies on some sort of human disembodyment.

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  37. I’m almost finished the book and I’ve found to be really fascinating and invigorating. My church background has also been about ‘fitting us for heaven’. I’ve never been 100% comfortable with that approach but could never really articulate why that was. Wright’s book has put into words a lot of those niggling doubts and has really opened up my mind to the bigger possibilities.
    During my time at university (studying Divinity), a lot of my theology has been slowly coming together and taking better shape but this has filled in a lot of the gaps. That’s not to say that there aren’t still some holes, but there’s a sense in which the ‘bigger picture’ is that much clearer.
    That’s also not to say that I swallow everything that’s in the book but I think the overall emphasis is correct and that we shouldn’t stop at heaven but be looking to that ‘life after life after death’. And more importantly, what its implications are for life in the ‘here and now’. This Spirit-filled life may be a pale reflection of the life to come, but it is nonetheless to be a foretaste of it and it should be lived like it matters (as it does).

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  38. The main difficulty that I see within the evangelical world is a misunderstanding of what heaven actually is. Throughout the Bible, it is usually significant as the dwelling place of God rather than as someplace “out there”. The Holy of Holies was a part of heaven on earth, as the special place where God dwelt, and its furnishings evoked “heavenly” settings (the lampstand as the seven planets visible to the naked eye, etc.). But with that exception and a few others, the dwelling place of God was not on earth. The consummation of redemption comes in Revelation 21, where “the tabernacle of God is among men, and he shall dwell among them” and the New Jerusalem comes to earth (shout out to Travis). So we will go to heaven for eternity – but the catch is that heaven will not remain “out there” for eternity, but will return to earth (and we’ll get new bodies) when God returns to earth.

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  39. I wonder how much of our journey is more both/and than either/or. I mean, clearly some of what you have said is in opposition – like longing to die and go to heaven versus experiencing Kingdom reality now. But, but should we totally walk away from the Southern Baptist teaching (and similar teaching many had as a part of their youth) or should we see it as a part of a more complete Kingdom understanding? I guess I’m probably reading too much into your post here.

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  40. I grew up in churches where heaven was emphasized, and resurrection was not, and as a result things got all wonky:

    (1) When you died, or once Jesus returned, we went to heaven. There was little about returning to earth for the Millennium or New Jerusalem; I think the idea confused our pastors and elders.

    (2) Once in heaven we assumed a semi-corporeal form, a “spiritual body,” sort of a ghost that could touch things.

    (3) In heaven we’d all be retired. We’d bum around and talk to people from bible times. Somehow God erased the language barrier, and the bible times folks weren’t inundated by fans.

    (4) Heaven was described as New Jerusalem. Gold streets, pearl gates, Tree of Life, River of Life, mansions for all, white robes, and gold crowns with a jewel for each person we led to Jesus. Billy Graham’s crown was gonna snap his neck.

    (5) Resurrection was “spiritual.” We had “spiritual bodies,” and we went to live in a spiritual plane, so there was nothing corporeal. We’d eat from the Tree of Life and drink the River of Life, but that was as corporeal as things got. (Whenever I talked about whether we’d need a Bathroom of Life I was rebuked for mocking sacred things.)

    (6) Jesus’s story of Lazarus and the rich guy was out of date. When Jesus died, He went to Hades, freed the saints, and left the tormented behind, just like the Gospel of Nicodemus says. Hades became Hell. The unrepentant go there.

    All this was undone when I became Pentecostal; we tend to preach Resurrection. In college, my theology professor’s doctoral thesis was on the Intermediate State, and I read it and a few other books.

    Yet I saw it again at my nephew’s funeral. My sister’s pastor was largely self-educated, and he repeated all the strange ideas about heaven that I had discarded years ago. He meant it to comfort, but it really didn’t. According to this theology, though they don’t say it, death is permanent. And because heaven isn’t physical but spiritual, it’s somehow unreal… and we have to fight our natural tendency to disbelieve it.

    Jesus is about the Kingdom (of Heaven, but that’s a euphemism for Kingdom of God). He’s about bringing that Kingdom to earth, making it real, developing it among us, and having us spread it worldwide. It culminates in the New Jerusalem, but it’s seeded in and by the Church. Christians are meant to focus on the here and now, not the by and by — which only exists in our imaginations anyway. Whatever God makes the New Jerusalem to be will be better than we can imagine, so we need to set the speculation aside and be Jesus to our world.

    Sorry for the wordiness. You provoked a rant out of me.

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  41. My opinion? Balance. We need a balanced approach and emphasis on both the here and now as well as our future home. By living in the reality of now we keep our feet firmly planted for the work the Father has given us of serving, loving, and making disciples. By living with flashes of heaven we reinforce our hope, inheritance, and allow the prospect of the eternal state to encourage us through the “momentary” trials of this life. We needs both, my friends. We need both.

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  42. Having just finished Surprised By Hope, I look forward to Michael’s thoughts on the book. At first I thought I would not get into it, but as the book goes along I see where Bishop Wright leads the discussion. It got me to think hard and long about the concept of heaven in my Lutheran background. It is one thing to redefine or explain the background of “heaven” ( I am not sure which word fits Wright’s intention) and then to explain it to a congregation.

    One last thing. Wright goes out of his way to talk about the “Waiting Place” but I honestly see this as his version of Heaven, which to me goes against his intention of the book.

    I am probably wrong in that assumption, so I would appreciate any thoughts on that chapter.

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  44. My pastor resurrected an old sermon he first preached years ago about Heaven for last Sunday’s service. He mentioned the old expression about being “too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good” but said that many Christians are simply too earthly minded because we don’t think of heaven enough.
    Without falling into the trap of the selfish trap of escapism, we should be heavenly minded in this life, letting the communion that we will once day fully have with God and its eternalness give significance to our lives and actions in the here and now.
    The Kingdom of God is not heaven, its here and now, but its source is Heaven.

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  45. This is a great topic that is dear to me. I’m on the run and will not have time to write what I want to write (with the theological/scriptural support).

    It is my opinion that Heaven (as our future home) is not only very, very over emphasized but is in great error.

    The error, in my humble opinion, stems from the powerful influence of Gnostic Dualism (where the cosmos was seen as not only inferior, but actually evil) on the Church throughout history, and especially American Evangelicalism.

    If you want to explore this concept, the Dutch theologian (who works with LAbri) Dr. Wim Rietkerk has a great lecture series, See:

    1) Our Future is on Earth, http://www.soundword.com/lx1001-cd.html

    and
    2) Caring for the Earth, http://www.soundword.com/l2609-cd.html

    Dr. Reitkerk points out that we are “earth people,” created by God from the earth and that our future is eternally linked to the earth. He points out (as does C.S. Lewis) that our eternal home is a renewed earth . . . not in Heaven after this “evil world” is destroyed.

    Christians have more reasons than anyone to not only be GREEN, but to appreciate all the incredible wonders of the beautiful and glorious cosmos, which God has made. He’s not going to eventually flush it . . . but fix it!

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  46. Michael:

    100% agree! Death was not part of God’s design. Death is the great intruder. Thank God that Jesus has taken away the sting of death through His resurrection; however, that doesn’t make death our welcomed friend. Someone (I forget who) wrote a book talking about the Islamization of Christianity. In that book, the author addresses this very issue.

    But the subject reminds me of a quote that Tony Campolo uses in one of his books:

    “People of God, I tell you the truth, one of these days you are going to die, and they’re going to drop you in a hole, and they’re going to throw dirt in your face, and they’re going to go back to the church and eat potato salad. But the only question is, What do you leave behind?”

    Reference: http://www.aapi.co.uk/mansbacher/Tcampolo_address.htm

    It is here that we show Christ our love for Him – offering a cup of water to the least in His name. We won’t be able to do that in heaven.

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  47. Michael,

    I also hate the near-death, ‘visions of heaven’ books as manipulative. And I agree with Travis that while there’s a lot of talking about heaven, a lot of it is misdirected. Instead of us going there, heaven is coming here.
    I came across ‘Heaven’ by Randy Alcorn which really helped my understanding of the new earth. He refutes much of what is said about heaven as simply boring and Christianised platonism. He starts with the certainty of the physical resurrection and the reality of the new earth and seeks to give a biblical description of our future state.
    There can be ‘too much’ heaven, but only if it’s the wrong heaven.

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  48. Could you comment on this passage from your perspective?

    For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden, because we wish not to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. So we are always confident; even though we know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord— for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
    2 Corinthians 5:4-8

    I too started out verbatim with everything you said (you got the lingo down pat) and am changing my perspective. However I do long for heaven now and have that hope, possibly in part because of unusual difficulties here.

    Thank you for your post and I look forward to more discussion.
    Jeff

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  49. Michael,
    What you say over all on this topic resonates with me. But I don’t think the problem is too much emphasis on heaven. Often these days I think there is maybe too little emphasis on heaven, but that may be to our differing traditions.sometimes I think there is too much emphasis on how to live this life here and now in this world, and too little encouragement for the world to come. We are in the world but not of it, heaven is our home. I do though believe that Jesus died for our sins so that we could also enjoy life in this world, we can enjoy the wives o our youth, enjoy fine glass of wine, and filling God temple with the finest incense Cuba can offer,and not only can we, we should. We should enjoy this new life God has given us, it has been given to us here and now. We live it now. we may live it more fully later, maybe when I get that mansion in the sky, with the Cuban tobacco plantation out bak and the French vineyard out front, but it doesn’t mean we don’t live that new life now also.

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  51. Michael,

    I can relate very well to your post. Heaven has been such a central focus of Christianity. It hit me a couple of years ago that we spend a lot of time and effort helping people get away from what God has given us. My attention started turning to more questions that had to do with the journey, not the destination. I refuse to think that my salvation is only good for getting me into heaven. There is so much God is doing here on earth that I too would prefer focusing on the now. As the saying goes…heaven can wait! Is that bad? 🙂

    Thanks for your post, really encouraging and explains my heart too.

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  52. Several years ago I noticed for the first time that at the end of Revelation, there’s not a picture of us ascending to heaven, but of heaven descending to earth. I started making the point that right here on earth is where we’ll spend eternity, and that’s begun to energize the ministry I do here now.

    This is not a test. It’s movement towards the time when “the last enemy” will be defeated.

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