I’ve been in a verse-by-verse study of I and II Timothy this year with several other men on our staff. We had an interesting discussion on this passage and its application in various contexts.
II Timothy 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
You have to be careful what you say to an American Christian.
Paul is speaking in II Timothy 3 about the lessons Timothy has learned from watching Paul’s own ministry. One of those lessons was the certainty of persecution.
In Paul’s experience, persecution was….well, persecution. Life-threatening attacks by mobs and local authorities. Timothy, who grew up in Lystra, may have witnessed Paul’s persecution there firsthand. He was aware of Paul’s scars and imprisonments.
So Paul states a general principle: all the godly will be persecuted as false believers and impostors grow worse and worse.
Cut to the typical gathering of American evangelicals, particularly those who believe the various manifestations of the culture “war” are the primary arena for discipleship. You’re certain to hear the word “persecution” frequently.
Are American Christians justified in saying they are persecuted? It seems like a difficult case to make when we compare the experience of American evangelicals with the experiences of those in Africa and India who are genuinely persecuted. American Christians may experience persecution from time to time in unusual situations, but the vast majority of American Christians will never know anything of the real experience of imprisonment, violence or hostility that genuinely threatens their well-being.
American Christians may know a bit about harassment, ridicule or even prejudicial bias and intimidation. These aren’t to be discounted. And within some cultural subgroups- such as zealous political atheists or strict Muslims living in America- actual persecution of a Christian convert might occur. I don’t want to ignore those genuine episodes of violence and persecution that do occur.
These episodes, however, are extremely rare. Even if we are to give some credence to the likelihood that western culture is moving toward more frequent and acceptable persecution of Christians (and other religions), we are still faced with how American Christians use the statement in 2 Timothy 3.
I would suggest that the culture war mentality of American evangelicals proceeds on an exaggerated sense of persecution based on Christian mythology. The nature of American history and society makes a certain tension with a pronounced sense of specific religious entitlement inevitable. When Christians seem to expect that they be given a privileged place they also give themselves an excuse for claiming “persecution” when that is hardly the case.
A visitor from Sudan or India would find most of our discussions of persecution to be rather odd when compared to their own.
Bu that same third world visitor might make another observation: the observation that American culture contains many challenges to the faith of American Christians that are far more seductive and polluting to the faith and practice of Christians than the clear demarcations of persecution by obvious enemies.
Our third world friend might point out that in America Paul’s statement that the “godly will be persecuted” is challenged more in the matter of what it means to “godly” than in what it means to be persecuted.
Rather than complain that we are being “persecuted” in a society where our employer might forbid open evangelism or where “Holiday” may replace “Christmas,” we should show real sensitivity to the truly persecuted. Without ignoring legitimate discrimination and episodes of mistreatment, we should remember that the American Christian experience shows many signs of distortion and weakness because it has been absent the bracing experience of persecution and is often far too affected by the seductions of secular acceptance.
The Internet Monk Archives 
Well backing up whining of persecution with long lengthy setences from biblical quotations or whatever is really clever isn’t it, Billybob?
As an atheist who is being watched left and right and had many noses stuck up at mefor being open about atheism, I will say without a doubt in my mind, Christians…ARE NOT BEING PERSECUTED!!!!!!!
Wow, you talk about persecution but yet you want to take action to possibly kill people for having homosexual sex in their own bedrooms and you keep bitching about Islam? Tell me, can you tell the difference between a Jew, Muslim, or Catholic just by looking at them. Do you ever find yourself not making an ignorant racist statement against Mexicans or people of possible Middle Eastern origin. Having to spend my days roaming across the evangelical republican wastelands of Ohio, I will happily laugh in your face for everytime you whine about persecution. I hope one day you are right and I won’t be threatened out of schools, jobs, or anywhere else for daring to mention in a discussion that I’m an atheist. It must be nice having everything in your control and being able to make everybody feel sorry for you so easily. If anything, at least you provide me with a good laugh as much as the fact that Jerry Falwell’s fat carcass is rotting in the ground along with his boyfriend, William Luther Peirce.
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True Christians and others are being persecuted at the present time in America.
Please pray for the truth to be exposed, justice to be served and for righteousness to prevail in America.
Now, called “gang stalking” (please google search this term) is being aimed at Christians in America and elsewhere. It is real, and it is spreading.
http://www.badexperiment.com/
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Upon reading your post I was thrown aside a little by your opinion that can Americans justly claim that they are being persecuted? That is an interesting question in which I never thought about because I always assumed that any hindrances in advancing the Good News was considered persecution. There are many ways in which a person can be persecuted. From top-down persecution which includes overt hindrances from the government to the individual, and bottom up persecution where one’s family and friends turn the convert over to the authorities or religious leaders for losing their faith. When you said, “So Paul states a general principle: all the godly will be persecuted as false believers and impostors grow worse and worse.” I take it to mean that everyone who professes the name of Christ Jesus will suffer persecution and in fact Jesus says “don’t be surprised when they persecute you because just as they treated me, they will do the same to you!” It is true that persecution takes many forms depending on geographical location, however, it is trivial to assert that one form of persecution is genuine than the other. This could perhaps be an issue of pride if one takes their type persecution and esteem it over another’s to dismiss or belittle their suffering. However, I do believe that when in war it is much easier to fight a visible, identifiable enemy than to fight an invisible force as if one was shadow boxing. In other words, the persecution that happens outside of The United States has a face and a body attached to the persecutor rather here in the states, the persecutor is a force of persuasion and a current that can carry you adrift if you are not aware of societies schemes. This is why Paul says, “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (Romans 12:2)
God bless,
rjb
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…which sometimes seems more like a case of the atheist/leftist caricature of Christians in America feeling persecuted because they don’t get to persecute other people. — Jeremiah Lawson
“Feeling persecuted because they don’t get to persecute other people” — Good line; gotta remember it. Though it’s not specifically Christian so much as a generic “Stupid People Trick”.
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That wasn’t a quote, IMonk, that was a full-length sermon.
What I see is another Christianization of the general Apocalyptic feel of the time. Since Darby, there has been the idea that things HAVE to get worse or Christ won’t return. This can easily slip into the attitude (overt or covert) of making things worse to grease the skids — the direct opposite of the Jewish idea of tikkun olam.
Since the current economic slump and the release and promotion of that Ben Stein movie Expelled, I have observed even Christians who I thought were levelheaded going into full-honk Great Tribulation mode. (Even the Christian SF trying to break the Conventional Christian Fiction mold has too heavy a proportion of Persecution Dystopias for me.)
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The quote is too long. Link it next time.
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Many vain men in our day in America would make persecution a new work, a way to heaven, both insulting those overseas who are persecuted not for their bravado to the faith but for the Cross in which they trust. But this kind of pagan auto-flagellation is not new, it is as old as man’s fallen religion and comes in any time and society with fresh makeup on it. Theologies of glory, fallen religion under any name even “Christianâ€, always have a tendency to ‘wet their fingers and stick them up in the air’ of time and space to see how God is operating, then adjusting their works (varied and many) accordingly. Their eyes are completely off of the Cross or trying to see around or through it, hence a theology of glory.
Thus, blessings from their god (and they may call their god ‘christian’ or biblical, but it is an idol) for their works can seek a blessing that is either negative or positive in outward form but is in sum total “how they know they are pleasing godâ€. In a word there is zero difference in ‘health wealth preaching’ which says in short, “IF you DO good (works), THEN ‘god’ will bless you with wealth and prosperityâ€; and these modern monks who in essence say, “IF you DO xyz, deny these worldly things, THEN ‘god’ will bless you with persecutionâ€. A persecution worked for by ANY means is no real persecution at all but a martyr (witness) to the devil. Persecution, true persecution is unto and an attempt to dislodge one from that naked passive trust in Christ at the Cross for one. This is why Luther saw antichrist in Islam, Popery and the Anabaptist, and he was precisely and acutely dead on.
A preacher who preaches a message that says, “Do good things to receive health and wealth†is not one wit different than a giddy spirited preacher that preaches a message that “If you don’t do xyz of the society or if you will imitate so and so over in that country, God will bless you with persecutionâ€. Both of these are antichristic messages pure and simple. The Anabaptist witness made a crucial error here during the reformation, as do all forms of religious pietism, and these reveal the real antichristic nature of that doctrine, which Luther saw clearly. What pleases God is Christ and Christ alone, “this is My Son in Whom I’m well pleased…â€. Those trusting that nakedly will receive true persecution either of the sword attempting to unlatch the Promise, or directly attempting to unlatch the Promise Word of God. Thus, when ANYONE says or implies that, “You are not a Christian because you are not being persecuted like xyz over thereâ€, the absolute irony in that is that THAT person saying that is truly persecuting YOU the hearer of that. For the sum total of their speech is “The Promise of Christ for you for your sin and having eternal life is not yours until you do this work, the work of being persecuted exactly like so and so over there.†That’s the irony in this, to demand similar persecution as if it is meritorious and bewitching God for the favor of God over Christ alone…IS REAL persecution against the Cross of Christ in the one nakedly passively trusting in the Cross of Christ ALONE. It is the word of the devil, it is the mockery of Ishmael. Persecution, true persecution, is not garnered but laid upon one for trusting nakedly and passively (true saving faith) in Christ alone utterly apart from works of ANY kind, shape or form. That’s the very nature of true suffering, to have it laid upon you, not “earned or mustered up†for something one has DONE (works and merit mongering).
Calvin got it in Galatians 4. So did Luther but his is longer.
Gal 4:29. As then, he that was born after the flesh. He denounces the cruelty of the false apostles, who wantonly insulted pious persons that placed all their confidence in Christ. There was abundant need that the uneasiness of the oppressed should be soothed by consolation, and that the cruelty of their oppressors should be severely checked. It is not wonderful, he says, that the children of the law, at the present day, do what Ishmael their father at first did, who, trusting to his being the first-born, persecuted Isaac the true heir. With the same proud disdain do his posterity now, on account of outward ceremonies, circumcision, and the various services of the law, molest and vaunt over the lawful sons of God. The Spirit is again contrasted with the flesh, that is, the calling of God with human appearance. (1 Samuel 16:7.) So the disguise is admitted to be possessed by the followers of the Law and of works, but the reality is claimed for those who rely on the calling of God alone, and depend upon his grace.
Persecuted. But persecution is nowhere mentioned, only Moses says that Ishmael was qhum, (metzahek,) mocking, (Genesis 21:9;) and by this participle he intimates that Ishmael ridiculed his brother Isaac. The explanation offered by some Jews, that this was a simple smile, is entirely inadmissible; for what cruelty would it have argued, that a harmless smile should have been so fearfully revenged? There cannot then be a doubt that he maliciously endeavored to provoke the child Isaac by reproachful language.
But how widely distant is this from persecution? 1 And yet it is not idly or unguardedly that Paul enlarges on this point. No persecution ought to distress us so much as to see our calling attempted to be undermined by the reproaches of wicked men. Neither blows, nor scourging, nor nails, nor thorns, occasioned to our Lord such intense suffering as that blasphemy:
“He trusted in God; what availeth it to him?
for he is deprived of all assistance.” (Matthew 27:43.)
There is more venom in this than in all persecutions; for how much more alarming is it that the grace of Divine adoption shall be made void, than that this frail life shall be taken from us? Ishmael did not persecute his brother with the sword; but, what is worse, he treated him with haughty disdain by trampling under foot the promise of God. All persecutions arise from this source, that wicked men despise and hate in the elect the grace of God; a memorable instance of which we have in the history of Cain and Abel. (Genesis 4:8.)
This reminds us, that not only ought we to be filled with horror at outward persecutions, when the enemies of religion slay us with fire and sword; when they banish, imprison, torture, or scourge; but when they attempt, by their blasphemies, to make void our confidence, which rests on the promises of God; when they ridicule our salvation, when they wantonly laugh to scorn the whole gospel. Nothing ought to wound our minds so deeply as contempt of God, and reproaches cast upon His grace: nor is there any kind of persecution more deadly than when the salvation of the soul is assailed. We who have escaped from the tyranny of the Pope, are not called to encounter the swords of wicked men. But how blind must we be, if we are not affected by that spiritual persecution, in which they strive, by every method, to extinguish that doctrine, from which we draw the breath of life! — when they attack our faith by their blasphemies, and shake not a few of the less informed! For my own part, I am far more grieved by the fury of the Epicureans than of the Papists. They do not attack us by open violence; but, in proportion as the name of God is more dear to me than my own life, the diabolical conspiracy which I see in operation to extinguish all fear and worship of God, to root out the remembrance of Christ, or to abandon it to the jeers of the ungodly, cannot but rack my mind with greater anxiety, than if a whole country were burning in one conflagration:
–End Quote
Blessings,
Larry KY
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All I can think of is N. T. Wright quoting his bishop, “Everywhere St. Paul went, there was a riot; everywhere I go, they serve me tea.”
However, I do know of one pastor in Ohio that matches St. Paul better than Wright’s bishop. He calls sin directly sin; he preaches repentance; he preaches the need for forgiveness and Christ as the only provision for that forgiveness. He does not scream, rant, or rail (I don’t think his voice has that volume level on it). Yet when invited to college campuses to speak, he does cause riots. The last time, the administration canceled the rest of his speaking engagements by fiat. His church on prior engagements got bomb threats.
Somehow, this man, Dan Burgoyne,–by speaking the Word directly and without compromise OUTSIDE THE SAFE CONFINES OF A CHURCH BUILDING WHERE TO SPEAK TO BASICALLY EVERYONE THAT AGREES WITH YOU ANYWAY–still sparks the wrath of the world. Maybe Americans aren’t persecuted because we interact on two different levels, preaching Christ and the Bible directly within our churches and interacting with the world on “Christ Lite,” mentioning Jesus but still accepting the basic multicultural assumptions and language of our system.
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Persecuted by the sword? Rarely to no. However, persecuted otherwise, yes. Paul identifies in Galatians that Ishmael’s laughter in Gen. at Isaac to be persecution. Why? What is the ultimate goal of persecution from the world fueled by the devil? Luther is most helpful here. The ultimate goal of persecution is not the harm to the body, as painful as that is, but rather to drive the man’s or woman’s soul to NOT believe God, that is Christ, is FOR him or her. The real persecution behind the persecution of the sword is to drive a man or woman to have no hope in Christ for them wherein the real death and real hell enter. Many men can muster up or gin up a strength against physical harm or death, this depends upon the nature of different people, but what a man cannot gin up is faith by itself without real hope in Christ for them. Beware that there is a way to make persecution and suffering a new theology of glory or work toward heaven, this is not to disparage those who overseas truly suffer for trusting Christ for them, but to warn men in their own fleshly zeal to falsely think that suffering gains them heaven. This is a real danger in men, we saw it in Peter who in the garden is ready to draw swords and says, “No not you Lord†to which Christ calls him Satan having the things of men in mind.
Thus, persecution at its root is to disparage a man from trusting Christ alone for himself. This is either done, the root to persecution by threat of sword (which is secondary) or immediately by false doctrine IN the church or men laughing at the hope that we have. So, YES, the American church is deeply under persecution. Luther saw that the church that is under peace to be in the greatest of persecution or total persecution. A man – many Christians have suffered this under the devil’s preaching their damnation internally to them and by Gospel-less doctrines within the church – may so not fear physical death that they contemplate suicide (some go so far as to succeed) for the suffering of the second death, pain of hell, is greater and feared MORE than the first death, the death of the body. The later, death of the body, Luther called a “childish death†compared to the second death which is pain of hell, wrath and condemnation of the Law. Luther was spot on target. Here we see that many American Christians are DEEPLY and silently persecuted all the while in the physical comfort of their homes, with intense spiritual battle going on as the devil lies and obscures through vain doctrine and preaching and the world saying, “…hath God really said TO YOU FOR YOU…â€. This kind of persecution is worse than the sword because here is the root and end all of the devil’s device in persecution, to make man despair of Christ!
I saw an interesting scene in a movie the other night that illustrates this deep theological point concerning ToG Vs. ToC and suffering. The scene itself had nothing to do with theology but in principle it was a perfect example. Luther always saw that that which denied, covered up, or other wise obscured the Gospel – be it in Word or Sacrament – as anti-christic to the core. And he was right. All such things boil down to a “hath God really said (Christ for you)†when all is said and done. Luther rightly observed this as the highest of end and end all of all other means of persecution, even the end of physical persecution (e.g. the sword). Calvin even saw this in his brilliant commentary on Gal. 4 where he notes well the laughter of Ishmael being persecution, which is explicitly what the Apostles states, as worse than if “…the entire country were going up in one conflagration…â€.
The scene was these boys in a home for abandoned children, a state run orphanage. Some bully boys, bigger, were picking on this younger more innocent boy who had been holding out this great hope of knowing he has a sign and knows that his parents are out there and he will find them, that is the FOR HIM in his HOPE (the theme in the movie in principle is inadvertently of grace and gospel in principle and is deep here). They were physically threatening him (persecution by the sword) as a means to PRIMARILY make him recant his hope (certain expectation), the REAL and END to persecution. What was notable about this was that the boy was not disturbed by the threat of physical reprisal but the words they were speaking to him as they mocked and laughed at him (like Ishmael), “You have no such hopeâ€. It was a theme the boy was fighting against throughout the entire moving, holding this hope out while the world denied it completely to him. The words against his hope was the real persecution, he could endure the physical threats and still hold on to hope, but when they railed at his hope, “No you do not have this folly…â€, then he despairs until some even/sign (“sacramental thingâ€) happens to bring him back his hope, TO HIM/FOR HIM. Then again he could endure the physical.
Herein is true persecution from the devil, world and the flesh that primarily is not interested in physical harm but denying that hope, certain expectation of the Gospel, which is the Word of God spoken to us in Word and Sacrament, the FOR YOU. Any other word that denies, covers or causes an allusion otherwise in Word or Sacrament or doctrine defining these as other than Gospel FOR YOU – is the persecuting word of the devil that drives man to despair. No matter what doctrine or theology or whom it comes from. When this happens the physical harm is a trivial thing, even hoped for as if to end this pain of hell which is the second death.
Thus, American Christians are in persecution, its just not by the sword of the devil but the word of the devil, which is as from the beginning his primary war with God: The word of the devil against the Word of God, even more the word of the devil against the INCARNATE Word of God, Christ Jesus. Thus, in the desert we see the real battle is Satan speaking his word to Jesus, the Incarnate Word, and saying, “God, Your Word, should worship me, my wordâ€. This persecution is as old as “…hath God really said…â€.
Blessings,
Larry KY
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I believe the great majority of Christians in America are not persecuted because they have conformed to the culture. I think if we separated ourselves from the culture through our actions, rather than leaving it and creating our own sanitized version of the same thing, we would be persecuted more. So I agree with Paul’s statement. For more of my thoughts on this subject and my others check out http://mrpositivity.blogspot.com
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“We are afraid of being rejected by unbelievers. We are afraid of being unpopular.” Look at our churches today. It’s hard to tell the difference between them and life-coaching seminar. Young women show up dressed in provacative clothes, we sing songs led by rock bands that look and sound just like the secular bands (aren’t they cool?), and the main goal of “worship” is that everybody has a good time. Are we persecuted now? No. But in the future, I don’t doubt it. We are gradually making ourselves the laughing stock of society, not becuase of our faith, but because of our feeble attempts to appear relevant to a secular society. We seem so often to forget that God is relevant because HE IS, not because we can package and market Him and make Him so.
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Mr. Hersehberger,
A simple “I doubt it” may suffice to dismiss others in your world but not mine. I have indeed seen people not get jobs they were qualified for, both in promotions and in being hired in. They included a church affiliation on their resume or had been open about their faith at work.
You dismiss my point as “not being able to live around other people and get along with them.
Let me make a seies of responses.
1. What you imagine to be true or not true is perfectly irrelevant. It is a useful tactic, perhaps but is also rude. I crafted my post with specific examples in mind for each statement I made. The point was to think through the degree to which I have personal knowledge of persecution or not.
2. As you will notice in my post, I have certainly seen Christians in the work place suffer for being obnoxious jerks. That was not the subject of the post. By the way, one of the most offensive things that Christians do is to make ignorant assumptions about others.
3. Not seeing that there is a price to be paid for being a Christian in the workplace and in the academy is, from my personal experience, gross, willful amnesia.
4. You are not a mind reader. You know nothing about me or my experience. You know nothing about were I am coming from. Don’t pretend to have knowledge that you do not.
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The answer to this question does not depend on one’s definition of persecution. That is relativistic thinking.
Persecution is singular in intent, though it takes many forms. Persecution is evil. It’s father and master is Satan.
A Muslim sister who wants to become a Christian but feels she can’t because of the suffering she is likely to suffer at the hands of her husband is experiencing an extreme form. So is the new Christian murdered in Somalia or Egypt. And so also the house church Christian imprisoned in China. These violent instances of persecution occur because the Lord’s ever growing presence threatens evil’s dominion in those cultures. It is the front line.
But why do some of you suppose that American Christians are not also under attack? We are being undermined by an internal attack…a kind of sabotage. The main weapons of sabotage here are media, business and the law.
Media portrays a highly sexualized and sensual culture of greed, lust and power. It ostracizes the Judeo-Christian principals of faith, purity and service. We are portrayed as superstitious relics of a bygone and disposable past. Law is used to bludgeon the free expression of the Gospel in school, government, public parks, and the workplace. The masquerade of tolerance and equal opportunity are touted to suppress our first amendment rights. Businesses embrace these programs out of fear of legal reprisal. A lawsuit always costs too much, even when you win.
This is happening because we are weak, anemic Christians who did not stand up mightily against divorce, abortion, sodomy, racism, poverty, media obscenity and other evils as they popped their weedy sprouts above the ground. They grew and overran our garden.
We do not preach the Gospel. We do not live out our full measure of faith. We do not know our scripture. We are afraid of being rejected by unbelievers. We are afraid of being unpopular. We are too comfortable to get up from our couch and be Christians.
The Holocaust is very instructive in demonstrating the acquiescence of a population in denial. Jewish and Christian citizens of Germany sat back in comfort as Hitler used media, business and the law to incrementally portray Jews as “a problem”, strip them of their right to do business, strip them of their property and to finally incarcerate, enslave and exterminate them.
These are the tactics evil uses to undermine a “friendly” culture. This is persecution.
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“I have seen Christians…
Not get jobs they were qualified for because of their faith”
Really? I have my doubts. How did their faith enter into the discussion? I have never had anyone ask me my religion in a job interview, and frankly, were this to happen I would be astonished if the interviewer were looking for “not Christian” as the correct answer.
On the other hand, I can easily imagine some Christian taking the job interview as an opportunity to witness, leading the interviewer to suspect that this candidate is likely to spend company time evangelizing his co-workers and annoying them in the process.
Similarly, when I read of Christians facing hostile environments in their neighborhood for their faith, I suspect that their conception of Christianity includes annoying everyone around them, many of whom probably are Christians themselves and perfectly happy in their current churches, thank you very much.
This is all the model of “persecution” as having to live around other people and get along with them.
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Try getting rid of the US flag from church and criticising some of what your country does when it is wrong. I suspect the outcome of that is persecution.
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Yeah, I’ve been frustrated by this attitude of victimization for quite some time. We need to get over our self-important, self-indulgent fantasies of being persecuted.
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I’m with Tyler. Thanks Michael for another great post.
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Persecution?
I have seen Christians…
Not get jobs they were qualified for because of their faith
Be discriminated against in matters of promotion and work assignments
Face hostile work environments at work, at school, in the neighborhood and in the marketplace.
Be ridiculed for their faith by classmates, work associates, bosses and customers.
Lose business in the market
Be openly discriminated against by professors and teachers both in class and in grades
Fail to be recommended for scholarships or fellowships because of their faith
There is another, separate question about how widespread this behavior is.
In my mind these don’t compare with imprisonment and beatings that occur in many parts of the world. However to the person involved, they certainly felt like discrimination. To be sure, our future seems to hold the promise of more aggressive persecution than the past.
To be sure, there have also been Christians who were discriminated against for being obnoxious jerks but that was not the question.
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Sometimes I think that what many Chrsitians mean by “persecution” is a lack of cultural dominance in the United States. Persecution may really happen but in many cases the people I hear discussing American persecution of Christians tends to amount to not getting the social/political program they want, which sometimes seems more like a case of the atheist/leftist caricature of Christians in America feeling persecuted because they don’t get to persecute other people. An extreme description but one that sometimes seems to have a kernel of truth to it. Do we, as Christians in the United States, think the West is in decline because it is really in decline or because we’re not getting what we want from it?
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I agree with others that concepts of persecution vary – on the one hand it involves physical abuse and torture, even to the point of death – on the other hand disdain and hatred for Christianity can come through more subtle means as denials of promotions, lower grades in classes, etc.
Interestingly, the Greek for Persecute “diwkw” has the idea of to harass someone or even to pursue them (cf 3rd ed BDAG 254). So, I wonder if harassment can come in different forms or must it be primarily in overt forms of harassment (physical, emotional, verbal, etc) to qualify as “persecution”?
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Doesn’t the very fact that all of us have the time and freedom to discuss this indicate that we are not persecuted? Not to mention the fact that it is being discussed over the internet, which implies either ownership of or access to a computer. I would say we are privileged not persecuted.
RT
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There is decidedly a self-congratulatory and pitiful aspect to some Christian claims of persecution. Every year there are a few letters to the editor printed in my local paper from Christians congratulating themselves on their daring to say “Merry Christmas”, as if anyone was trying to stop them or would punish them for do this, or likely would even notice one way or the other.
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Big Sandy,
The photographers refused the business at the inital conversation. If they had done so at the ceremony or did an unprofessional job, I’d just consider it a contract issue.
Not knowing whether Michael likes links or not, I’m placed a link to an article as my website.
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Good thoughts. This reminds me of the Dan Kimball post, “Do some Christians want to be ‘hated’?”:
http://www.dankimball.com/vintage_faith/2007/06/do-some-christi.html
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I have trouble seeing true persecution of Christians within Australia – I am assuming America is similar.
Persecution is defined as “To pursue in a manner to injure, grieve, or afflict; to beset with cruelty or malignity; to harass; especially, to afflict, harass, punish, or put to death, for adherence to a particular religious creed or mode of worship.”
I don’t see that in our culture today at all. In fact, the opposite is probably true. Christians are fantastic at carrying out harassing and maligning others, while simultaneously proclaiming “We are being persecuted!”
The only times I have ever been put down because of my faith is when I have done something to deserve it. I look back at those times and cringe. I don’t for a moment believe I was persecuted: I was being an idiot. There is a difference.
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Many Christians in America believe they are persecuted because they honestly don’t understand that America is not the 1950’s Ozzie and Harriet TV show (or most of the banners in Baptist Sunday School that show crew cut haircuts). Some Christians seem shocked when they evangelize at work, on work time, become obnoxious, and then get reprimanded. And, as said before, the culture “war”.
But Christians are not imprisoned. And if one adopts a realistic view of America being post-modern and post-Christian, the idea of persecution goes away. In fact, I am glad that it is post-modern and post-Christian. It makes it much easier to relate to Paul’s epistles to the Roman world.
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Coming from a different angle on this issue of receiving persecution…do you think it’s possible that some christians take this ‘persecution’ idea to an extreme for their own self-righteousness? For instance Fundamentalists are known for saying things like ‘the truth will offend’ or ‘if you’re a true christian your nonchristian friends will hate you’…..they take the whole persecution thing to an extreme and can lead to having a martyr complex. I think this whole persecution thing can be taken and twisted out a heart of religious pride. Yes, we will be persecuted if we live godly and Spirit filled lives but this can easily be taken to an extreme and we can end up fooling ourselves. Maybe we’re being ‘persecuted’ because we have a stuck up vibe? Tim Keller’s sermons on 1 Peter brings some good insights into this discussion.
” If you’re persecuted all the time and you never attract people to Christ it’s because you’re obnoxious not because you’re faithful. And if you’re never ever persecuted, ever, for your faith it’s because you’re a coward. ”
– Tim Keller
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Persecution may be culturally defined. In the first century, persecution meant beatings, torture and execution. Twenty-first century American Christians have expanded that definition to include “not being invited to a party because alcohol will be served there and no one wants to hear you rant about the evils of alcohol.”
I’m not saying that Americans are wrong by claiming they’re being persecuted. In a sense, they are. But I don’t believe they (for the most part) have really earned the right to place themselves side by side with Peter, Paul and the countless Christians who suffered and died for their faith in the first few centuries AD.
And besides, I’m guessing that American “persecution” results not so much from proclaiming and defending the gospel, but from fighting for moral causes (abortion, gay marriage, the lottery, etc.).
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Anna A,
Did they pay the guy to take the pictures? If they paid him and he didn’t take them or intentionally botched them, that’s simple breach of contract. If he was opposed to the ceremony, he shouldn’t have taken their money and business.
That’s just being a crappy businessman and trying to retroactively invoke the Almighty and “your principles” to justify that you breached a contract.
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Why are you so awesome??
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No. Many have said it well. I really like the summary by caplight. As a previous missionary in the Muslim world, I have met real Christians (converts from Islam) that have faced real persecution and I have never, ever seen anything like it here.
This same topic was raised in Sunday school at my Evangelical Church this past Sunday. Our most Evangelical (speaking culturally here) elder (as I am the most Post-Evangelical) said he believed that Christians ARE persecuted here and he gave a personal example.
As a coach, he forbade the drinking of alcohol or using “dirty words†(by other coaches) in his presence. Because the other coaches were so irritated by his “imposing his religion on them,†they slipped and put Vodka in his Seven-up.
If you want to know what I think about this type of “persecution†go back and read caplight’s statement.
I really think that American Evangelicals have an ego-centric (maybe ethnocentric) obsession with “Martyrdom.†The best example is the Christian Voices of the Martyrs (http://www.persecution.com/).
It really bothers me when Christians separate themselves out as us Vs them. Yes you can look around the world and find people who are being treated unjustly and killed for being Christians. But you can also find many more people (who may not be Christians, but who are still created in God’s wonderful image) who are being persecuted and killed daily for being; Shiite, Sunni, Muslim, Tibetan, women, being gay, being girls, wrong political party, not wearing berkas, on and on. As a Christian, I should hate all injustice—regardless of faith or views of its victims.
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Are American (Western) Christians physically persecuted? Here in NZ which is far more post Christain, we don’t have physical persecution for being a Christain. Sometimes for being dorky or stupid (aka not letting kids have medical treatment or some other wako stuff).
I have always understood this as relational “persecution”. That is grief from people around you as you grow and change – that is become more godly. (Often irronically this trouble is from so called brothers and sisters in christ). My current example of this is that as I grow in the knowledge of who I am in Christ and stop being a door mat and stand up to some of the bullies in my life. They haven’t been to pleased about this! And as a consequence some have got nasty….
Now does this compare at all to physical persecution, or family’s dis owning you because you became a christian – not at all. It is in a completely different league.
I suspect that American culture as it moves away from its “church” base that people feel funny not being part of the dominate cultural thought. But that is not persecution just cultural shift – a completely different story.
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Is being sued by two women because you, a professional photographer, don’t want to take their pictures during and after their commitment ceremony, being persecuted?
This is happening in New Mexico.
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“Our third world friend might point out that in America Paul’s statement that the “godly will be persecuted†is challenged more in the matter of what it means to “godly†than in what it means to be persecuted.”
Excellent point. Something that really needs to be thought of by American Evangelicals.
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“Might’ve lost a business opportunity or two because people didn’t want to work with or hire an outspoken Christian. (They prefer their Christians to be the “My faith is very personal, so I never ever talk about it, or demonstrate it, or suggest I have any†type.)”
When I see an ad in the paper by a local business, and it includes a cross or a fish, I tend to avoid that business. Either the businessman is a Christian or he is a fraud. If the latter, obviously I don’t want to do business with him. If the former, he is praying on the street corner. Christianity should not be a marketing tool.
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I haven’t read this post. I’m just responding to the question, Are American Christians “Persecuted?” Um, how do I say this? Uh, NO THEY ARE NOT! Around Christmastime last year I wrote an entry on my blog about this, and it was published in our local paper as well. I commented that Christians in America need to stop whining about being persecuted. If they want to know what persecution really is go to North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China, Iran and so forth. Being that it was Christmas of course the big bruhaha is that “Merry Christmas” is being replaced by “Happy Holidays.” And, that is supposed to be persecution. GIVE ME A BREAK.
Oh well, now I will go and read this post and see how appropriate my comments are.
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This may not be exactly on topic, but my wife had a roommate in college from Sweden. We were eating in a restaurant, and when I finished blessing the meal and looked up, the 2 men sitting at the next table had also bowed their heads. She was shocked. She said never in Sweden would that happen, not ever. American Christianity is pretty comfortable, especially in the South. In my public high school, the banner our cheerleaders held up for the football team to run through said “I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me.” We began and ended any type of assembly with prayer, and the school administrators vowed to continue until the state came in and put a stop to it. Steve’s prediction may come true; but I don’t think it’s just around the corner any time soon.
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bls,
Pastor’s don’t have to quote scripture verbatim to be in some sort of acceptable non-persecution boundary. He was preaching on Romans 1.
Do you think the language in Romans 1 is acceptable to radical homosexuals and their PC allies in government? I think not.
Bill Maher (and many others) can openly call the Pope a Nazi and nobody bats an eye. The government can pay (with my tax dollars) so-called artists to put crucifixes in jars of urine, and nobody is arrested. Those intolerant Christians rioted in the streets over that one …not.
You have got to be kidding about the persecution of gays. There are always small numbers of people that beat up blacks, asians, gays, fat people, white people, or whomever, for whatever.
I have worked with and know many, gay people who experience virtually zero problems in their lives because of their sexuality. None.
If a straight guy wanted to start dancing up and down my street waving sex toys at my kids, he might have a problem with me. He would have a problem with me.
The radical nature of a small minority of gay people pushing their agenda and propaganda in our society and our schools is the problem.
Sexual practices ought be kept in the bedroom and not the classroom. Parents ought be the ones to decide what and where their children learn about sex.
Gay people are glorified by the entertainment industry while Christians are routinely belittled and mocked.
Radical homosexuals want free speech, except when someone wants to criticize them.
If Islam ever to gain real power in this country, you will really see what persecution of Christians and gays is all about.
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Just thinking of how we all are one body, and how that too might apply to this whole matter. That where one Christian is persecuted for being Christian, there all Christians are persecuted.
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One thing is missing from the post and comments: abuse of authority by Christians who are over you positionally. That can be real persecution.
I was treated like a doormat for several years by elders in a very authoritarian church. I think it would have been preferable to be persecuted by non-Christians, because at least then I would not have thought the abuse came from the Lord Himself (through his “deputy authorities”).
Psychological and spiritual abuse is very real. When you are endeavoring to follow Christ’s example, and being frustrated by a system that emphasizes legality and heavy-handedness, that could be considered persecution for living a godly life.
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This is perhaps a bit off topic but concerning the topic of persecution I would recommend Shusaku Endo’s novel “Silence” for a fascinating look at the persecution of Catholic Japanese peasants. It is told from the perspective of a Jesuit missionary who is smuggled into the country. And it speaks to the question of what persecution and martyrdom mean and even the nature of sacrifice. It is a bit heterodox in the same way of Graham Greene’s catholic works but it is a very moving and thought provoking book written by an unappreciated Japanese novelist.
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They teach and apparently believe that America should be leading the world back to some mythical Christian society and that the efforts are being thwarted by the “leftâ€. — Rob Lofland
When I first encountered this in the late Seventies/Early Eighties, the Mythical Christian Society was 1950s America as filtered through Ozzie, Harriet, and Donna Reed.
Today (judging from the Christian Romance Novel covers I saw in B&N last night) it’s Little House on the Prarie with Amish dress codes.
Go fig…
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Christians being disliked, disdained because of arrogant, obnoxious and condemnatory behavior does not constitute persecution.
I personally know and keep contact with people who are persecuted and whose lives and safety are constantly at risk as they preach the gospel in another part of the world. It’s kind of like Lloyd Bentson to Dan Quayle (I knew John Kennedy and Senator you are no John Kennedy), I know people who are persecuted, brother, and you’re not persecuted.
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I did something to bring about more difficulty in my life: wearing a head covering and dressing modestly. To my surprise, the snide remarks were a minimum. My co-workers in academia were understanding. If anything, what I experience through making a public statement of faith in what I wear is a cold-shoulder from other Christians.
The upside to being “veiled” is that I have more Muslim and non-religious friends now.
~Anna
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Steve said: “The day is approaching when real persecutions in America will take place.” No doubt. But in the meantime, well, what the heck? Let’s focus our time learning how God wants us to have rip-roaring good sex in our marriages (of course in our marriages, and please, you unmarrieds, we know it is hard, but could you at least try to abstain for a few weeks in the name of God?), put bistros in our churches (ya gotta eat, after all), have rock star impersonators lead our worship services with the most awesome ever equipment (the cost of which could feed a third world family for a year), and complain loudly that the media is portraying us in a bad light. That way, at least we’ll be cool, relevant, and having a good time right up until the end…or at least we’ll think we are.
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“Seems to me that since Constantine made Christianity the religion of the empire, true persecution has been relegated to the frontiers of missions.”
OK, go float that idea in front of an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and see whether he just laughs in your face, or actually slaps you.
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People should at least stop declaring that a pastor was “jailed for quoting scripture with regard to homosexuality”; this is not what actually occurred. Here’s what the famous Swedish “pastor” said: he referred to homosexuality as “abnormal, a horrible cancerous tumour in the body of society”.
What is the “Scripture” being quoted here? I don’t remember ever reading anything like that in the Bible. Anyway, even a reference to “Scripture” doesn’t work; the Bible verses always trotted out against “homosexuality” do not refer to “homosexuality” at all; they all speak to males alone, for one. The word “homosexuality” wasn’t ever used until around the 20th Century, because it didn’t exist. There have been 27 (or so) different translations of the words used in Corinthians and elsewhere. Why? Because the word used there was a coinage; it’s not found anywhere else in writings of the time. Paul apparently fabricated it.
Christians aren’t beaten up, reviled, and “persecuted” for who they are; gay people are, though, and frequently. Ask yourselves why, sometime. Even people thought to be gay are; “pastors” like the one referred to here are not innocent in this regard. And you might also want to ask yourselves why consensual sex between adults elicits such statements as the one quoted above; where is the evidence for such a claim, anyway? What, exactly, is the “cancer” being referred to? Where are the horrible outcomes he claims? Why does the fact that a tiny percentage of the population is homosexual create such fear and loathing among Evangelicals in particular? It ain’t for religious reasons, I can assure you; or, if it is: it’s sure not a religion that anybody ought to join, because it’s absolutely and totally irrational.
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Depends upon your definition of persecution. If you mean demonstrable governmental oppression then we suffer comparitively very little.
If you include deception and delusion, then we should be included in the Fox’s Book of Martyrs.
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My statement about the pastor jailed for his remarks on homosexulaity was in error. It was not Canada but Sweeden. And of course, that instance of persecution didn’t have anything to do with Islam, but rather the PC culture.
Sorry about that, Chief.
– Steve
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Christians in America have had it pretty easy as far as persecution goes. But this too shall pass.
The day is approaching when real persecutions in America will take place. As Islam continues to gain momemtum in Western societies the persecution of Christians will increase in number and severity.
Brigitte Bardot is currently on trial in France for using a “Muslim slur”. A preacher in Canada was jailed for quoting scripture with regard to homosexuality. There are other examples from Great Britain, Italy, and other Western nations were the political and social influence of Islam is being brought to bear against Christian traditions, teachings, and individuals.
Stand by. Without a doubt… it is coming.
– Steve
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“Are American Christians ‘Persecuted’?”
This is a yes or no question. If answered in the same way it is asked, the answer is simple and straightforward: yes. In particular walks of life — the national academia and media immediately come to mind, as well as public education in certain parts of the country, and there are many others — American Christians are denied all kinds of opportunities simply because they are Christian. Yes, some Christians — some very well-placed vocal Christians — have a sense of entitlement that is counterproductive at best. This does not change the reality of the persecution faced by their brothers and sisters who, for the most part, are just asking for the same chance as everybody else.
Of course Christians in other nations are persecuted much more strongly. People in other nations are often much poorer than people here. But, though I am stingy enough already, I hope I would not withold giving to an American inner city ministry because there are people so much poorer elsewhere in the world.
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The concept of persecution has become muddied, in part because of misuse of the word. We American evangelicals believe that we have been persecuted because our perspective is so severely limited. We are becoming increasingly uncomfortable as our culturally Christian society becomes post-Christian. I think that Michael’s final paragraph hits it on the head: our whole grasp of the faith has been weakened by the safety and comfort that we have enjoyed. Time will tell what comes of this.
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Seems to me that since Constantine made Christianity the religion of the empire, true persecution has been relegated to the frontiers of missions.
When he took that step, he moved Christianity from religious movement to cultural movement. For the next 1500 years, we’ve done plenty to persecute one another (and maybe we could make a case for the Moors), but “western” Christians have embraced Christendom to the point that we expect not only the absence of persecution but also the full embrace of Christian doctrine (theonomy) by the culture.
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I’ve only suffered from bias — although I hardly like to use the word “suffered.” I’ve experienced bias.
Might’ve lost a business opportunity or two because people didn’t want to work with or hire an outspoken Christian. (They prefer their Christians to be the “My faith is very personal, so I never ever talk about it, or demonstrate it, or suggest I have any” type.)
Of course I’ve got into my share of debates with inhospitable atheists; even one here on your blog, as you may recall.
But none of that is anywhere close to persecution. It’s an insult to persecuted Christians to call it that. It’s truly ridiculous when Christians rejoice — because they’re “suffering” on Jesus’s behalf — when they get into minor trouble because someone doesn’t like Christians, or because they’ve done some goofy foolishness that really has more to do with their politics than their Lord.
We Americans are so blessed that we really have lost all sense of perspective.
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I think you’re right that Paul is asking Timothy to note what has happened in Paul’s ministry. But I wonder if this is really his deepest reason for saying what will happen to all. Perhaps it is a conclusion from Jesus’ words “You will be hated by all because of My name” (Matthew 10:22 and elsewhere). Hatred in Scripture can mean more of a contemptuous dismissal than an active animosity. Esau despising his birthright. Insofar as we pursue the things of God, our pursuits make no sense to people.
Our talk of being persecuted is, as you say, probably silly to those undergoing actual imprisonment and torture. But I think some are speaking this way so that they can feel like they qualify under the terms of the verse. And perhaps they do.
Maybe we need a better way of discussing this verse so that we see how it applies to us without trying to compare apples and oranges.
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There’s no response because I posted it about 10 minutes ago.
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I am shocked that there has been no response to this blog.
Many of my close associates are deeply involved in the evangelical church. I think that they would find this concept offensive.
Part of the basis of their ministries is that Christians are persecuted around the world but in a cultural sense in America. They teach and apparently believe that America should be leading the world back to some mythical Christian society and that the efforts are being thwarted by the “left”.
The efforts are being thwarted by our own irrelevancy. Like the radical atheist.
This is a confusing time for all but it is refreshing to see that the Word still provides clear and compelling direction.
The persecution that most of us suffer is the persecution of not wanting to appear to be not cool or not in touch with the modern world.
Pathetic.
American Christians are a cult of brotherhood.
I am one.
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If someone in the western world received a warning from her manager because of her open evangelism in her work place, then later gets fired after she continues to talk about her faith at work, is that a case for persecution, or is it a stupid approach to evangelism?
I just wonder time to time whether the reason I am not persecuted is because I live in the western world, or because I am not as active in my faith.
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