(Thanks to all of you who are already supporting Jesus Shaped Spirituality, or JSS.)
We probably need a new category around here: “Words As I Ride Into The Sunset.”
Catholic blogger extraordinaire Amy Welborn has been studying me for a couple of years now, and she knows what’s red meat to my post evangelical soul.
So this morning, she sent me two examples (1, 2) of a “meme” we’ll call “What Is Something You Feel You Can’t Say Around Other Christians (or in Church?)”
For the kind of response IM readers have been used to in this space, check out young Luke Sky…..Alex Arnold at “I Am Not A BIV.”
Sorry to disappoint, but I suppose the 8 year career of the Internet Monk has been full of the kind of things I couldn’t say around Christians or in church, but felt I could say to thousands of readers on the same journey via the blogosphere. Mistake? Depends on whom you ask, and when, and where they were in the journey. But in 1200 posts, I tossed a few good pitches and I hit a few batters. I’d take some things back (and have,) but other things will be there for those on the same journey I’ve been on for as long as I can find the space.
There are some places that Christians will allow you to stand up and say “the sermon is pop psych” or “I’m not a young earth creationist” or “why do we act like we just invented Christianity this year?” What a gift it is to be able to speak truth and be supported by a community of the one who IS the truth.
In the church I grew up in I always heard that we believed in freedom of conscience, the right of private interpretation, the priesthood of the believer, soul competency and the sacred right to differ from the majority.
I heard about all of that, and I heard that it was other denominations, with their bishops and their hierarchies, that were hung up on conformity all the way down the line.
Well….let’s just say that it’s a good thing they don’t give awards for “Ironic Reversals of Reality” anywhere. Someone would need to build a shelf. A long one.
I’ve discovered there’s a good reason you can’t speak your own convictions among many church and denominational Christians. And I’m not just talking about a crabby email or comment.
My own denomination has a population of leaders who have been openly condemning bloggers like Wade Burleson and Tom Ascol for several years now, as for the first time, the usual regime of assumed power-preachers and denominational power-brokers discovered there was actual, real, thoughtful, articulate dissent being published out there. And that dissent was treated as a threat to the denomination’s unity and mission of evangelism, to the point that bloggers were publicly ridiculed in many denominational speeches in the past 2-3 years.
Be clear on this: I have no problem disapproving of the blogger who uses his/her power of personal publishing to lie, insinuate, gossip and undermine. But I am stunned and saddened to see how legitimate dissent, honest questioning, personal struggle, authenticate analysis and necessary discussion or consequences have been called sinful and destructive. It’s a tragic error.
Some bloggers have been irresponsible. I may have been too honest, too vulnerable, too transparent in my blogging at times. But when we mistake the silence of pre-programmed, enforced conformity with Christian unity, we’re already the victims of our own delusions.
There are still doors in Christendom where the truth needs to be nailed, and some of them aren’t far away from where you are.
We need to talk about what is and is not happening among real Christians living real lives.
We need to hear the truth about the Christian experience, not just the scrubbed and glowing testimonials.
We need to have the assumed wisdom and answers of denominational leaders scrutinized, just like every pastor has to face his critics in every healthy church anywhere.
We need a vibrant discussion of the “whys” and the “what fors” in the things we require of one another in church, denomination and ministry.
We need courageous writers who will tell the stories that can’t be spoken among Christians who are determined to create a culture of secrecy and religious conformity.
There may be a price for honesty, asking questions and telling our stories. But there will never cease to be a need for someone who has the courage to ask tough questions and tell honest experiences in the midst of organized religion. We won’t ever get the truth of our human and Christian journeys from the official spokespersons or the press releases. We have to speak it to one another and support one another in the consequences.
We can’t speak falsehood to ourselves, one another and our children. Even if the truth is clumsy, painful, inconvenient or unwelcome, it is still the truth and we should love it for Jesus sake.
So Amy, I’d love to answer that meme, but right now….I’ve probably said enough. (Love you and what you do.)
But now we have a comment thread: What Can You NOT Say Around Other Christians (or In Church?)
The Internet Monk Archives 
Hello, Do something for help the hungry people in Africa and India,
I added this blog about that subject:
in http://tinyurl.com/6p6lb8
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Regarding the “manliness” of pastors –
I also don’t want to keep hearing regular references to how hot you find your wife, or how you enjoy your sex life with her. (This one applies primarily to the “gen-X” pastors.)
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Unless it’s preceded by the word “birthday”, you aren’t allowed to say the word “party”. Instead you are expected to use the church-speak phrase “time of fellowship”.
Pastors(as vulnerable as any of us BTW) don’t get “canned after getting caught having sex with their secretary”, instead: “They have entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of their staff and are stepping down from their position for a season, to receive counseling, and experience a time of healing with their family”. (Apologies for stealing the phrase from JSS). I also find it interesting that it seemed necessary to qualify that the other party was “female” as if a “same-sex unhealthy relationship” is much worse than a “opposite-sex unhealthy relationship”.
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To the songleader with the “great” new choruses:
—You are neither passionate nor desperate for God. You’re just a whiny emo wannabee. Find some new adjectives. NOW!
To the pastor who just left a men’s rally:
—Yeah, I’m a man. That doesn’t mean I like golf, baseball, mountain climbing or most other athletic pursuits. Nor do I want to hear in every sermon about your exploits as the captain of your high school varsity team. Trust me, it’s neither drawing me closer to Jesus nor yourself.
–Sometimes “brutal, transparent honesty” from the pulpit is WAY over-rated; because if we dared to get that honest about OUR issues, we’d be shunned faster than an Amish guy with an iPod.
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“I don’t like most Christian music (CCM).”
“I like prog rock” (Neal Morse in particular).
“That song we sang in worship was not scriptural.”
“Quit singing to Jesus like he’s your Cosmic Boyfriend”. (Thanks to Michael Horton on the White Horse Inn for that one, which I use all the time).
“Are you Arminian or Calvinist?”
“What do you believe?/What does this church believe?” Most people (even pastors) can’t answer.
“I’m a libertarian”.
“No, I don’t want to go down and picket the abortion clinic”.
“My grown-up kids are heathen and don’t want anything to do with God”. (but you can pray for them).
“My wife has bipolar disorder and takes medication”. at which point they back away. or tell me how she needs to be prayed for or delivered.
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“You’re not fooling anyone”! Can I have a little flag with that on, so I can sit at the back waving it? Brilliant.
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“In my case, it was reading a confidential letter to a roomful of my peers, without my permission and on a complete misunderstanding that was never brought to me. And I still don’t have an apology for it.”
Ouch! My sympathies
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JeffM,
Some of these comments “can’t†be said in church because they would rightly be seen as sarcastic and mean.
Some, yes. Point taken.
j. Michael Jones,
As a Christian, the scariest thing I know of is … The DAYSTAR Christian Network!
You need to watch more TV, dude. TBN is way scarier. TBN is to Daystar as “Cujo” is to “Lassie, Come Home.”
And here’s a couple more:
No I don’t think it’s right to cuss, but I think 10 minutes of foul language is rather benign compared to 10 minutes of the gossip that is always coming out of your mouth.
I have serious concerns about how my kids might be affected by Harry Potter, but I worry alot more about how they might be affected by Bible Man.
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I reluctantly approved this comment. I will not approve any more “law/gospel” themed comments on this thread. (I will, of course, allow responses to this one.)
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This is a good post and revealing one. While there are a couple of good Gospel rooted replies, most are revealing as to the general condition of the church. Paul noted it well, and much Luther noted it well. A pastor friend of mine have observed it in many churches we’ve been in, around, had knowledge of and associated in one way or another with in this state.
We tagged it, the “my law is better than your law†syndrome, or better a revelation that what is REALLY being preached and taught from the pulpit and/or Sunday school room(s) in spite of the “confession†of the church in so many words “justification by faith alone†or “we are not saved by our worksâ€, and that is nothing but “lâ€aw and not even THE Law. One can ALWAYS tell when what is really being preached or lived within any given church, across all denominations, is sans Gospel and rather a diet of “lâ€aw or confounded lawgospel or lawgospellaw or some other mishmash mélange of confusion. The tell tale sign is always this kind of legalesque “pissed†off with something you can/can’t do around another Christian. In other words one can tell when mostly “lâ€aw is being preached and taught when this kind of judgmental attitude arises over mostly things of indifference or adiaphoria – hence – “my law is better than your lawâ€.
For example you will find a pastor finally speaking his upset with the congregation and vice versa over basically nothing, just nit picking needling. When you see that situation you can pretty much guarantee that what is coming from the pulpit is a “jesus†that is another “jesusâ€, a WWJD, a walk/talk like “jesus’, a form of sanctification that is not getting use to one’s justification but a “cleaning up of life†(paganism), and a “faith†that is something other than a naked utterly passive trusting in Christ. A kind of preaching/teaching within that cannot answer in Gospel, “yesâ€, to the question, “You mean if I don’t get better I STILL get to go to heavenâ€. A preaching that trips and stumbles all over the stumbling Stone of the scandalous offense of the Cross. And the life of the church reveals that deeply in spite of a confession that says, “justification by faith alone in Christ alone by pure grace aloneâ€, “Jesus is not NEARLY enough.†The pastor/elders/deacons will gripe and moan about the congregation and vice versa. Why? Because nobody is living up to every body else’s “lâ€aw. Killing Law, the Hammer of God is obviously not preached or taught nor understood here, much less the Gospel, the real naked Good News.
So you have this “tightening up†as we saw with the Pharisees rather than the loosening up that the Gospel brings. As the law is preached in reality, works salvation even if denied outwardly, the congregation, preacher and all, tighten up and from sinful hearts arises these murders, slanders and such. “The Law isâ€, as Luther says, “the most salutary doctrine of life, but it cannot help a man toward righteousness (at all). In fact (more so to the reality and point) it hinders him (completely). Much less the works of man gained by so called natural precept performed over and over (repetition sanctification) again.†(ldh – paraphrased). But we NEVER understand this and so we return to the dog vomit of our works. Oh we will call it “gospel†or “the full gospel†or so called Law and Gospel confounding “full council of God’s Word†(as if there is something other than Law and Gospel), we will call it ‘biblical’ or ‘bible derived’…like the Pharisees of old we do indeed “search the scriptures and think that by them we have life…â€, but we definitely loose sight of the fact that, “…it are these that continually bear witness of Me (Jesus, and as taker of sin/giver of all righteousness…the end.). And so we pretend with our masks on every Sunday that we are hunky dory, no real sinner here, no sinner with INVINCIBLE sins, just conquered sins or “strugglesâ€. Jesus only died for invincible sins past, present and future not “conquered sins†which is an ever “in the present†denial of the need of Christ FOR ME. We never talk “normal†and avoid certain conversation in the presence of the church, pastor, deacon, elder, other laymen – “no real sinners here, just faking it onesâ€.
So this reveals the kind of preaching/teaching and life of the church that is REALLY going on in spite of a “vigorous confession†to the contrary if asked. That REALLY we are preaching, teaching and living as if we “work our way to heaven†and NOT by the so called protestant difference justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and we are not one wit different in REALITY to Rome, Trent just has the guts to put in print what most protestant churches attempt to avoid officially but preach/teach/live in reality. A theology of Cross is NOT yet another “doctrine†to be confessed to, but the WAY or STATE of being of the OPERATION of the one captured by the Cross, as opposed to a theology of glory which too is not a “confession†per se, but the way or state of being one operates within.
Blessings,
Larry KY
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J. Michael Jones,
You must not have seen GOD TV Network yet.
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Wow, Michael! The comments on this post are becoming more fun and interesting to read than those posted on “Post Secret”!
Hope you are doing well!
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Additional:
As a Christian, the scariest thing I know of is
NOT:
1) The gay agenda
2) Al-Qaeda
3) The Liberal Media
4) The Evolutionists-Humanist school teachers
But:
The DAYSTAR Christian Network!
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Gypsy,
Thanks. There seem to be a number of internet Catholics who would think your soul in danger for not being Catholic, but I’m pretty confident there aren’t any in real life. I’m sure I haven’t met any. American Catholics, at least, have too many holy Protestant family members and friends to be able to go around thinking that way: the evidence of the Spirit outside the Catholic Church is impossible to deny. I have a charismatic Protestant friend who has the most incredible Eucharistic mystical experiences; and the fruits of it in her life are too clearly evident for any sane Christian to be skeptical of it.
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for o.h.: Oh, my. I’m so sorry that so many people just don’t get it. I am part of an “evangelical” church body (Friends, or more commonly known as Quakers), but there isn’t a single person in this household, and there are very few who attend our church (I do suspect one or two), who would have any desire to “convert” you. Wow. What blows me away is that there are probably Christians who are more considerate toward people in other faiths – FALSE GOD faiths – than toward you for simply being in a different denomination of the CHRISTIAN faith. I pray that your friends will come to understand that we all – ALL OF US, EVERY DENOMINATION – are branched off of the Original Roman Catholic Church. Likewise I hope that our Catholic friends don’t all believe we are going to hell because we aren’t members of their denomination. None of my Catholic friends have ever treated me that way – maybe I am a rare and blessed individual, but they consider my faith in Christ to be all I need to be part of the catholic (meaning “whole” here) church, as I do them – I say that not to gloat over my own good fortune, but to show that there is hope! We are all of the same faith. May the Lord forgive us for not loving each other (His most urgent command), and “considering others as better than ourselves”. I think acceptance falls somewhere in that spectrum.
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As a pastor:
I doubt at times just like you do.
I’m tired or being expected to “walk on water.”
People hurt me deeply when they criticize my
family, especially when yours isn’t that great either.
I struggle with the same things that you do.
I fart, cry, get angry, make love to my wife in the middle of the day, find ultra dogmatic people unloving.
I think that America’s churches as a whole are in big trouble. So sue me.
I think many pastors today are afraid to make the needed changes in their churches to be culturally relevant for fear of upsetting the “pillars of the church†and thus lose their jobs.
I think the so-called “pillars of the church†are all too often “barricades†that keep people away.
This is NOT your church. It belongs to Jesus Christ.
I still don’t understand why God allowed my daughter to die and seven. If one more person tells me that “God needed another angel in Heavenâ€, I’ll scream. People are not nor do they become angels.
I have a hard time understanding why God has allowed my wife to get cancer after her faithful service to him for decades.
After a number of years in the pastorate I got tired of people and their petty behaviors. So, now I travel and help pastors with their church struggles. I am far more rewarded and satisfied.
There are millions of Christians that are truly Christian that don’t believe as I do.
Churches hurt pastor’s wives more then they do pastors with their cutting words and gossip.
Yes, my daughter got pregnant without being married. Why is it that it’s more serious then when it happens in your family?
Stop staring at my daughter in church. Yes, she’s got tattoos and piercings. It’s too bad that you’re not rejoicing that she has returned to Christ and His church.
Sometimes I wish I had chosen another profession then ministry and it’s because of church people.
My wife and my favorite saying is, “the ministry would be great if it wasn’t for church people.†lol
Looking back, I’m glad I didn’t choose another profession. In spite of all that people put me through, I would not think of doing anything else.
Yes…God could get the glory, but it would be nice to receive a few compliments from His people from time to time.
Most churches don’t pay their pastor half of what he is worth.
I don’t care who reads this and knows it’s from me. It’s how I feel…so get over it.
As your pastor, I loved you with all of my heart and soul and only wanted the best for you and your walk with Jesus.
I could go on and on…but this is enough.
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Michael,
I don’t know if I can say this on your blog, but I’ll try.
Your 100+ “come home to Rome” e-mails aren’t the same. You can, and do, “say around Christians” that they’re inappropriate and counterproductive. Thank you for not really forwarding them to me, BTW. (Though, wretch that I am, I think I really do want to see the one written in first-person from Our Lord.)
All the examples I gave involved friends. The church in the last one is one which many of my friends attend, and I would never, never tell them how horrified many of us non-members were by the funeral altar call. Nor would I ever bring up the elephant in the living room with any of my friends: that I may be a friend, but I’m also a “project.”
I wan’t trying to Evangelical- or Baptist-bash. But something is very wrong with a subculture where friendship comes with an underlying agenda. It’s nothing like conversion e-mails from anonymous internet readers–not that I discount the hurt and annoyance those cause.
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I’ve got one:
–My father is seeing a woman who is not his wife, and I don’t have a problem with it. I value my relationship with him too much to make a stink over that.
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Anna,
I agree with you that this is a safe place to vent a little frustration. It is one of the reasons I like coming here and reading and even posting so much. : ) Hopefully, I am not coming across as some guy who has it all together and looking down my nose or something. I guess this is close to my heart, because the last church I was at had a couple who didn’t like anything I did in ministry and went behind my back at every turn to try and undermine me there. I found out later from the senior pastor that they had desired to contact the church I am at now to tell them all the things that are “wrong” with me. I honestly had no idea they were doing any of this at the time and frankly I still haven’t found a way to confront them about the issue. If I bring it up with them, I may betray the confidence of those who told me what was going on in such a way that it hurts more people. I prayed about it and debated in my own heart and mind how to deal with it and in the end I just swallowed my words, forgave them for what they had done and wanted to do and moved on. Not too long ago they were called on the carpet (Matthew 18 style) over another situation that they created and apparently they were somewhat repentant. If you ever do that thread on getting burned by others iMonk, count me in.
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I’m giving my money to another ministry. Don’t start quoting Malachi to me unless we have some place to store grain around here.
Yes, John the Baptist preached against Herod’s adultery. But he also said those who have food and clothes should share them with those who do not. A thought to ponder.
You’re not being persecuted because a store puts up signs saying “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” in December. If it bugs you that bad go in the store and yell MERRY CHRISTMAS. Chances are they will say “Merry Christmas” back to you.
“The Passion of the Christ” was a terrible movie.
If there was a fire here, or if someone broke in and stole something the police and fire department would come out here. So why are we tax exempt?
I’m in my 30s. I’ve never had sex. I want to very much.
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Here’s one…
I just finished my last day as a staff member of a large Baptist church today. My first thought, as I walked out the door….I want a drink…several of them! And, I want to have them in a public restaurant…which I did!
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Its amazing how once you get started, they just keep flowing. Probably not a good thing, but when you spend a lifetime in the subculture, they just keep popping up.
With that in mind. . .
If I hear the phrases “tough but tender” or “a servant’s heart” one more time – especially in relation to a discussion on Christian manhood – I’m going to scream.
If I hear one more doe-eyed young Christian wife waxing on about her godly, strong, wise, wonderful Christian husband. . .
Some days, if I have to hear one more message about abstaining from sex until marriage from someone who’s already married. . .
Why do so many Sunday School classes, youth, and young adult groups focus on discussions of sex, dating, and marriage? Do they think younger people are not capable of understanding other topics?
OK, got that off my chest.
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Yes, someday we ought to have the thread where we talk about what was done by leaders that burned us.
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Jeff M,
While I can only speak for myself, in this thread, I suspect that it is true for many commenters. I express myself here, because I know that it won’t hurt either my tangible witness, and the people I know and worship with.
It’s safe here, and just knowing that others are struggling with the same things makes it easier.
I will say that some of my deepest scars from religious people, (including my last Baptist pastor) came from when I did talk to them, trying to use the Biblical method. (But also recognizing that I communicate better in writing than verbally when talking with a domineering type.)
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Bob,
I agree with you that many don’t like to hear criticism. That was part of my point about the difficulty of both giving and receiving it. The thing that strikes me about some of the comments is that they certainly fit the bill of something we can’t say in church, but the reason we can’t say them is more interesting. Some of these comments “can’t” be said in church because they would rightly be seen as sarcastic and mean. People wouldn’t say them because hopefully they have the grace to know that is how they would be taken(and wouldn’t fit the Biblical injunction for speech that builds others up). Some of these comments though touch on issues that should be dealt with and I think it would be good if we could find our way clear in the body of Christ to speak those truths in love. It isn’t easy, but Christ never promised it would be either.
Jeff M
P.S. Thanks for the compliment. I can’t say I always like to hear criticism, but since I ask for it openly I always try to take it in the spirit of love and work on improving. I am blessed with a church where people will come to me with suggestions and feedback and it has helped me to grow tremendously. I am far from perfect, but I keep moving forward to the goal.
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j. Michael Jones, thanks for yoour comment. You hit the nail on the head.
Jeff M.,
I have … come to a conclusion. Most Christians really struggle with the ability to handle(give or receive) constructive criticism. There are a lot of comments here that should be aired and dealt with in the situations where they take place. I say this as a minister who has worked under the cloud of crippling criticism (which was never voiced to me). I am an oddball who has openly asked for critical comments in ministry that will make me a better minister.
Two things: 1) You sound like the kind of minister whose church I would like to join. But I have had to deal with too many ministers who just absolutely do not want to hear the things that are being voiced in these comments. 2) I think Michael was asking for things we can’t say in church, not things we can’t say to our pastors. Even in churches with great pastors, there is almost always the question of what one can say in the larger congregation without raising the wrong set of eyebrows.
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another:
“Transparency? You couldn’t deal with transparency.”
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* Singing the same lyric over and over doesn’t make the song interesting
* We need a little more room between the chairs – we keep banging into each other with these huge planks sticking out of our eyes
* Communion should be at least offered
* Pastor’s wives should be involved in service and outreach
* There is no one-way to worship
* Why is it again we never mention Satan in the sermon?
* Cleavage does make a brother stumble, so are you sure that’s an appropriate outfit?
* Where is the cross at this church again?
* A side-hug is much more appropriate
* The stage performance can actually distract us away from Jesus, it’s not all about you
* How exactly am I supposed to transfer this message to my every-day life?
* Reading from your notes the entire time doesn’t make the sermon very believable
* Don’t say you’ll pray for me when you really won’t
* Remember the Great Commission?
* Memorizing Bible verses is not going to make me a better person
* Recycling the sermons IS noticeable
* You don’t seem to practice what you preach
* Put the cell phone down. All I want to do is read what you are texting, and I can’t concentrate!
* We ALL have a past, let’s stop acting like we were born perfect
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* Singing the same lyric over and over doesn’t make the song interesting
* We need a little more room between the chairs – we keep banging into each other with these huge planks sticking out of our eyes
* Communion should be at least offered
* Pastor’s wives should be involved in service and outreach
* There is no one-way to worship
* Why is it again we never mention Satan in the sermon?
* Cleavage does make a brother stumble, so are you sure that’s an appropriate outfit?
* Where is the cross at this church again?
* A side-hug is much more appropriate
* The stage performance can actually distract us away from Jesus, it’s not all about you
* How exactly am I supposed to transfer this message to my every-day life?
* Reading from your notes the entire time doesn’t make the sermon very believable
* Don’t say you’ll pray for me when you really won’t
* Remember the Great Commission?
* Memorizing Bible verses is not going to make me a better person
* Recycling the sermons IS noticeable
* You don’t seem to practice what you preach
* Put the cell phone down. All I want to do is read what you are texting, so I can’t concentrate!
* We all have a past, let’s stop acting like we were born perfect
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I have read my way through this list of comments(mostly complaints) and come to a conclusion. Most Christians really struggle with the ability to handle(give or receive) constructive criticism. There are a lot of comments here that should be aired and dealt with in the situations where they take place. I say this as a minister who has worked under the cloud of crippling criticism(which was never voiced to me). I am an oddball who has openly asked for critical comments in ministry that will make me a better minister. Some churches and some people have been kind enough to take me at my word and offer these comments, which then help me to see blind spots in my ministry or thinking. But there are others, who prefer to leave their thoughts unsaid(except to their closest friends) which helped no one at all and instead did great harm. I would like to suggest, that we as believers need to find a way to tell people the truth in love. If you have a complaint about something, suggest a way to make it better. If you can’t think of a way to make it better, then the criticism won’t be constructive, it will just be venting.
If I may in this spirit offer a comment to those who wrote about not having a quiet time or not needing a quiet time or something similar. Christ is the one who gave the example of getting alone with God and spending “quiet time” with Him. If you don’t like calling it that or whatever, then don’t. But it is arrogant to think that we don’t need alone time with God when Christ did.
Jeff M
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-I like beer too, but that’s your last one tonight; you’ve had too much already (I wish people would have told me that at times).
-I like raising my hands in worship. You don’t have to do it, but I’ll continue, thanks.
-Sometimes I wonder if I’m cut out for ministry because I know the extent of my sinfulness.
-Your interpretation of Jeremiah 29:11 is laughable at best.
-I sometimes envy simple people who have a profound love for Christ.
-I sometimes get frustrated by simple people who don’t care about the finer points of doctrine.
-Let’s dispense with this “I’m not a Christian; I’m a Christ-follower” business. Stop shying away from the word “Christian” because you want to be trendy.
-Sometimes I struggle with how gracious God is, and how in the world he can forgive me.
-I’m not ready to give up on Calvinist theology because most people I know who are former Calvinists only were so because it was cool, and they gave up just because they were bitter and cynical in the first place.
-I fail to see how cynicism reflects Jesus Christ at all; that’s why I hate my own cynicism so much.
-I thought that movie was great.
-I thought that movie was filth.
-I like reading both John Piper and Ben Witherington III.
-I don’t care much for Rob Bell.
-I think every Christian should read Slaughterhouse Five.
-I like worshiping to a more rocked-out sort of praise band. I enjoy a more liturgical style of worship on occasion as well.
-There’s an overplayed inspirational Christian song or two that I enjoy.
-I’m 24, and I’m a virgin. That makes me the oldest virgin in most of my circles of friends. Sometimes I get really frustrated about that.
-Most of the time non-Christian girls make more sense to me.
-I find most Christian dating practices either so romantic that it’s no wonder the girl winds up pregnant, or so practical that if the couple gets married I wonder if they’re robots.
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I could only read about the first 1/3 of the comments, then it got repetitive. I’m going to star by saying that I’m sorry that so many people get turned off by church. I have the cheerleaders in my church that don’t take no for an answer and it bugs me too, but I don’t let that stop me from praying that they find their true relationship with God and stop being to “religious”.
The other thing that got me was the comments “what does Father’s Day/4th of July/etc have to do with the gospel?” My answer is “what does a mustard seed have to do with God’s love?” It’s a parable and an engaging – I didn’t say GOOD, but engaging – pastor will be able to use the 4th of July or even Halloween as a teaching example of how God moves and what he does for us on a daily basis. That is a pastor that can use a metaphor or an example from his life this week to tie it all together. Last year, my pastor talked of how he got a gardening set for Father’s day and tied that in with weeding and pruning then tied that into John 15 – He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
Just as God has His hands in everything, everything is a opportunity to talk about God.
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“No, I’m not going to pray for your Great Aunt Fanny’s blister on her big toe.”
“Pastor, I think Steve Brown’s pretty cool, and thanks to him, I’m now a grace-man, rather than a rule-keeper (like you.)
“Yes, I think Jesus probably did have long hair.”
“Did you know that Sex and the City comes out on Friday?”
“If Jesus walked into our church today, we probably wouldn’t let him in. The dirt on His sandals might stain the carpet.”
“I think blogging on the IM site is theraputic.”
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God doesn’t actually have a favorite Mass.
If the Church is two thousand years old, almost, and there’s been some sort of music all that time, why are 80% of the songs in the missal post 1970?
Don’t even get me started on their quality.
I don’t come to Mass to sing about myself, nor do I like to pose as if I were God the Father/Jesus.
I am not the Bread of Life, nor will I raise anyone up on the last day, so it’s a little grandiose to sound like I am.
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I may be the preacher (deacon, sunday school teacher, youth minister, worship leader, discipleship group leader, etc.) but I don’t have all the answers and I struggle just like every one else does.
I’m asking the church to cut my salary because economic conditions are tough right now and the church can spend the money better elsewhere.
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At least in this part of the world we don’t get politics in church (that would have me out the door before you could start counting), nor does anyone round here care too much about the creation/evolution thingy (thank heavens! I don’t care either) but that still leaves quite a few things. How about:
I don’t do quiet times, haven’t done them for years, and I think it’s just legalism!
I think some of these guys who are into “headship” are actually abusing their wives
I hate “women’s ministry”. It’s the same Jesus and the same truth, why does it have to be dumbed down for women?
Just because I’m female doesn’t mean I have the slightest interest in crafts or kids’ ministry. I’d rather revise my Greek and Hebrew (how CAN I say that without sounding like an intellectual snob?)
I don’t like most of my extended family (some of whom have been VERY abusive) and I’d rather maintain careful boundaries with them than play “Christian” games.
I had 2 kids because I only wanted to have 2 kids. I love my kids, but they’re not the whole reason for my existence. Likewise, I hated being pregnant — it wasn’t this wonderful mystic experience, it was 9 months of feeling sick and scared!
My husband isn’t my best friend. Things happen. So what? We’ve still been married more than 30 years and have no intention of infidelity or divorce. Sometimes keeping your commitments is a goal in itself, regardless of feelings.
Why do leaders have to be CEOs? And what’s with this vision thingy? Shouldn’t the “vision” be simply to follow Jesus wherever He leads?
Just because you blurted a sentence about God to someone doesn’t mean you “witnessed”. Actually in that context you were rude and inappropriate!
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Bill, I like to tell cessationists that they’re closet deists who only believe in miracles if they are mentioned in the Bible. If Jesus or an apostle healed someone and it didn’t get mentioned in Scripture does the cessationist think it still happened?
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Interesting that someone would bring this up.
I work with the most conservative, rules-oriented, truly narrow and proud of it Baptists anywhere.
But several of the married couples do things in worship that just blow my mind.
For example, one couple will stand to sing, and the husband will put his arm all the way around his wife’s waist while they are singing.
I’ve seen this with more than one couple. They see it as completely appropriate.
Just goes to show, one persons “reverence” is another persons PDA.
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quote: “Couples who are more into each other during the service than they are the worship of God, or fellowship of other believers. Go home if you’re that horny.”
YES!!! Thank you for this. As a single person, this is the NO. 1 REASON I struggle with going to church on a regular basis. It’s just too painful to watch all the PDA and withstand another sermon about marriage while I sit there alone and hurting.
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These are the best
Patrick Kyle’s:
I don’t have daily devotions.
I’m pulling my kid out of Sunday School because it sucks and will damage his faith. (One of the top 5, the QUICKEST and most sure fire way to make an atheist. – ldh)
Our Sunday School curricula is barely even Christian. (One of the top 5, ditto. – ldh)
I don’t think our church should support that Missionary because he acts like an ass.
What does Mother’s day/Father’s Day/Flag Day/Fourth of July have to do with worshipping Christ?
I hate “personal testimonies†and any time devoted to them during services. (One of the top 5, it’s like a prostitute showing some leg! – ldh)
Steve Martin’s:
“Your decision for Christ was a sham.â€
“We do nothing at all to become Christians.â€
“What’s with the lifting your hands to the sky, baloney?â€
“We love to baptise babies because we believe it is pleasing to God.â€
“Roman Catholic and Non-Denominational theologies are virtually the same.†(One of the top 5, a rose is a rose by any other name, ex opera operato – symbolic, six one way – half a dozen another. – ldh)
“You have a pope, it’s just printed on paper and has ‘Holy Bible’ printed on the cover.†(One of the top 5 – ldh)
That was like a drink of fine WINE?
L
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A few more, now that I’m wide awake:
Just because John Piper said it, does not make it so. He is not the final authority on all things spiritual.
If we believe in the gifts of the Spirit, why do we never practice them? Are we that afraid of the cessanionist crowd?
I’m tired of Christians apologizing for the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc. I have enough sin on my own to deal with, without taking on the sins of those who died hundreds of years ago.
Why is there always church discipline for sexual sins, but never for legalism, materialism, etc.?
Blue Like Jazz was just OK. “Oh, I’m such a stupid Christian and all these secular people are so much smarter than me.”
I get tired of feeling guilty for not wanting to talk about my sexual struggles in a small group setting.
I hate the fact that even in typing all this, I fear I’m coming off as whiny and ungrateful towards people I do care about.
That’s it for now.
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I find excuses not to go to church
I’d rather hang out in the “cry-room” with my wife and daughter than pay attention to the pastor.
I don’t want to hear another sermon on the 4 steps to or how to take the next step or the “BE-Attitudes”.
You are the pastor for crying out loud, feed us.
How can I self feed when I don’t know what the good stuff is?
Christians in third world countries put me to shame
I am worse today than I was when I started
Please turn down the sound system, my ears are bleeding.
I guess Tatoos are required to be on the worship team.
Our adult services are lookig more and more like the youth services I used to lead.
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how about “I really resent being told that giving 10% is the standard and not the goal considering our church paid you 80 grand last year and I’m supporting my family on less than 30K right now.”
“I’m tired of feeling guilty for not tithing”
“you only come here because its cheaper than joining the country club and we have music”
“you only enjoy singing repetitive lyrics and banging a tambourine because you lost touch with the spiritual content contained in the hymns and growing up with New Wave music ultimately gave you bad taste in music”
“dispensationalism is ridiculous, and John Calvin would personally beat you down in this sunday school room for what you just said and kick you out of the PCA to force you to rethink you position.”
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I work in a Christian ministry, and I’d be a little nervous to say:
– I think Job is highly likely a tale told to describe God and suffering.
– Almost all modern worship music is embarrassing, and “worship leaders” are overpaid to entertain in even the best of situations.
– Defending Young Earth creationism is usually futile.
– Catholic and Calvinist converts are two sides of the same coin.
– We have a serious problem with celebrity worship, and have set unobtainable standards for ourselves and our idols.
– I don’t give a crap about the latest cultural war crisis.
– I have never had a “quiet time,” and I do not think I need to have one.
– I do not have daily devotions.
– I haven’t read, and don’t plan to read, the latest hit Christian Book (exception: if the latest hit book is from NT Wright, there’s a chance)
– Referring to a funeral as a “homecoming” is trite and cheapens the curse of death, Christ’s redemption, and the promises of resurrection.
To the “hipster” Christians I hang out with once in a while (and whose forums I frequent and blogs I read), I doubt I could say:
– The Religious Right was annoying, but the new Christian Left is getting insufferably smug in only a fraction of the time.
– I listen to Christian Radio. They’re covering the situations in Burma, Darfur, and China better than the MSM — and they will keep on those stories long after the other guys scramble over to the latest crisis.
– You couldn’t tell me the difference between a Fundamentalist, an Evangelical, and a Protestant if you tried — so stop trying to lump all of us together.
– The answer to the question “Are you a Christian?” needn’t be accompanied by a long explanation of how you are not like “those” Christians.
– I don’t buy that the word “Christian” has somehow been rendered useless by the people who abuse it.
– Stop worrying so much about how others see you.
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Too many “young, hip” evangelicals voting Democrat mainly because it is what their parents WOULDN’T do.
Worship leaders performing FOR us, instead of trying to LEAD us into worship.
Having a “contemporary, relevant” service is no longer groundbreaking. Hasn’t been in years.
Joel Osteen may be unbalanced in his teaching. That does not make him a heretic. Two different things.
Couples who are more into each other during the service than they are the worship of God, or fellowship of other believers. Go home if you’re that horny.
Constantly trying to convert other Christians to your church/denomination instead of going after the truly unsaved/unchurched.
Asking what Christian authors people read, and getting the same five responses every time. Read outside the box for once in your life.
I too do not like to greet somebody in 30 seconds. It sometimes takes me that long to get up the courage to say anything.
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“My non-Christian friends are more real and honest than my Christian ones.”
“Christian radio is not ‘reaching the lost.’ Neither is 99% of Christian music in general.”
“I think Catholics might be on to something with confessing one’s sins to a priest.”
“It’s possible homosexuality is mostly genetic.”
“I think the decision to go to war in Iraq was immoral and unjustified.”
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I sometimes like to read the apocrypha. Some of it might be inspired. Sirach 28:2 sounds remarkably similar to what Jesus said in Matthew 6:14-15.
Why are there so many sermons on homosexuality and alcoholism, when the prevalent sins in our midst seem to be gluttony and greed?
It’s possible that we are wasting money sending the youth to another conference. Come on, do they really need to go to 2 of them every year, one in winter and one in summer?
It’s probably also a waste of money for the choir to buy new Christmas music this year. They’ve done a different musical for ten straight years now. If they just started doing the same ones over again I don’t think very many people would notice and fewer would care.
If a Christian decides not to vote in the election, he’s not committing a sin.
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Reflecting on this article and comments, I must say 77 and counting . . . something has hit a cord.
I really think that the Adlai Stevenson statement (referring to Eleanor Roosevelt) “She would rather light candles than curse the darkness, and her glow has warmed the world,” doesn’t apply to this situation, nor should be posters feel any shame for venting.
It is more like this: There is this darkness that inundates Evangelicalism . . . yet the Evangelicals sees it as light. Scattered far and wide, are a handful of pilgrims who have come to recognize the darkness (not because they are so smart or spiritual . . . but because they are broken). Yet, they feel entirely alone. Because they are so alone, they must constantly ask themselves, “Is it really light and I don’t see it because I’m blind . . . or am I insane?â€
Then they hear a few other voices scattered in the wilderness saying, “Hey, I see the darkness too! You’re not insane . . . or alone.â€
Now that’s a healing process in my perspective. You can’t light a candle until you know that the darkness is there. You can’t know the darkness is really there until others agree with you that indeed, the emperor is naked as a jaybird.
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H. Lee:
Agreed. There’s a place for venting. I’ve done my own share of emotional dumping on this blog. iMonk’s pretty cool to make room for it.
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“There may be a price for honesty, asking questions and telling our stories. But there will never cease to be a need for someone who has the courage to ask tough questions and tell honest experiences in the midst of organized religion.”
Well said – and the great news is that the price we pay for honesty, asking questions and telling out stories is “freedom in Christ”.
About 6 years ago, after 15 years of marriage – my husband and I hit a rough spot and spent 18 months in counseling. About 6 months of those were spent under separate roofs – and we received quite a bit of criticism from some “godly people” in our church after deciding (under the guidance of a Christian counselor) that we needed some time apart to work through our own personal issues. This decision was probably the biggest part of our healing – not only in our marriage – but, our personal walks with God.
After our season of healing, God provided opportunities for us to share our story – and we were amazed at the number of people who were struggling in their marriage – but, did not feel like they could share it with anyone they were in Christian fellowship with…for fear that they would be judged and criticized. It’s sad.
Marriages and families are falling apart – at an alarming rate – and yet, the church is the one place that people will least likely share their heartaches. This needs to change – and quickly!
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I have been reading your blog for a few months now. Keep coming back because you are so open and honest. I’m passionate about God, just not all that we have come to accept as “church”.
I’m a truck driving, former youth/young adult pastor who is learning more about my faith hanging out with truckers, than I have ever learned in church!
I have a “hobby” ministry that I’ve started and have no intentions of earning a living from it. I’m only wanting to explore what it really means to follow God in our day.
Your blog is a daily “must read” as will your new one! Thank You for your transperancy, I resonate with your thoughts!
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Katherine Gunn,
I am a bit full of myself. I’m prideful and selfish. I acknowledge this, although I didn’t have to for you to pick up on it, obviously. The paradox is that my honesty was exactly what you didn’t want to hear and proved why I don’t feel like I can say those things in church. I am sinful just like everyone else in church, and I recognize it.. it’s just that not many people want to hear about that in church until I’ve overcome it and am ready to spill all the juicy details in a “praise report”.
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In the right wing evangelical church I go to right now I couldn’t say:
I really admire my wife’s professional ambition.
In the left wing church I went to several years back:
We’re thinking of letting my wife home school the kids.
Right wing:
I’m not so sure that Genesis is meant to be read literally.
Left wing:
I’m not so sure the ten commandments are meant to be read symbolically.
RW:
Reagan wasn’t perfect.
LW:
Reagan wasn’t evil.
RW:
I don’t see a problem with the youth pastor being a woman.
LW:
I don’t like the idea of a woman being the senior pastor.
RW:
Actually, I have learned a few things from reading in other religions.
LW:
If Christianity isn’t better than other religions, what exactly are we doing here?
RW:
The Republican Party wasn’t founded by Peter.
LW:
The Democrat Party wasn’t founded by Peter.
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Every music pastor should watch the South Park episode “Christian Rock Hard”.
Dispensationalism is the fig leaf of choice for Christians who want to rationalize their own ethnic, political, religious, and racial paranoia or ambition, except when post-millenialism gets the job done better.
Can we get more preaching from the youth pastor? His exegesis is better than the senior pastor’s.
If that sermon was really about the biblical text and not about the pastor’s wish-list, stories about himself, his wife, or people he wants to make his church grow then it might have been a good sermon. Too bad it wasn’t really about the biblical text.
It’s not that I don’t trust God, I just don’t trust you, that’s all.
“Pray about it” doesn’t mean I’ll agree with you. It just means I’ll pray about it if I feel like it.
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Lord, I’m the so-called pastor of this church and much of the time I really have no idea what to do or say.
I’m sure not a CEO-type leader.
Do I even have much of a vision, other than to invite people to follow Jesus and grow more like him? That doesn’t sound profound or compelling or “sexy.”
I get tired of people raving about so-called teachers and authors who say and write what I would consider to be “pabulum” at best.
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Well, I agree with “dumb ox” that it’s better to light a candle, but (and here’s what I probably shouldn’t say in church) cursing the darkness is a lot less work and a lot more fun. What can I say?
Here’s what I *don’t* say to my fundamentalist/ evangelical friends inside and outside of my Episcopal Church:
The Left Behind books should be.
Jews are God’s chosen people, but only if they become Christians; otherwise they’ll all burn in hell? Okaaaay.
The Creation Museum’s “science” is so bad it makes my head explode.
Q: What’s the difference between modern Christian music and machine gun fire? A: A machine gun has only 100 rounds. (This one courtesy of Tony Campolo.)
Thanks for the opportunity to chuckle, and for the memories, iMonk. I’ll miss you.
Heather
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Things you can’t say around Christians? Here’s one: Sometimes I don’t like being a Christian. That’s the lastest Mike Frizzell post, and he begs the question if it’s okay to ask this type of question. http://mikefrizzell.net/2008/05/27/sometimes-i-dont-like-being-a-christian/
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J Michael Jones,
I do understand where you are coming from. But consider 1) your value as a Christian comes from Christ. He knows you better than you know yourself.
2) A friend you can’t be honest with is not a friend.
I find a lot of people are burdened with the pretenses of the “Christian” life. Non-Christians are put off by it, they see through it. Actually the Christians themselves see through it more often than not too. They just don’t know what to do about it. Often times being honest is a breath of fresh air to everyone involved.
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Steve-
I literally laughed myself silly when I read your last one, “I don’t want to turn and greet somebody for only thirty seconds”…..
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I missed Sunday School because I overslept. I overslept because the ball game went into extra innings.
Do you realize that Jesus said it is hard for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God and most of us are among the richest 5% of the world?
What if Jesus meant what He said would happen if we don’t forgive one another?
I’ve never seen the altar call in the Bible, much less playing music while it’s given.
Did the early church have the flag (or any other symbol) of the Roman Empire in their worship services?
I think Oscar Romero was more like Jesus than most of us are.
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More:
“Calvin and Luther disagreed bitterly on this point. I happen to think they were both wrong.”
“I notice that the Great Commission doesn’t even mention preaching the gospel”
“I don’t see the command for a personal quiet time in the bible.”
“Catholics are Christians, too.”
“Why are you using a prayer meeting to reveal all the sins of your non-Christian co-worker? Did he/she give you permission?”
“I don’t want to turn and greet somebody for only thirty seconds.”
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Some more:
“Can the music minister lay off the whooping and shouting a little? This isn’t a pep rally.”
“Along those lines, no more telling the congregation to look at their neighbor and say any cute phrases the reinforce your sermon bullet points.”
“We spent $X million on beige warehouse with concrete floors and a stage?”
“What if Jeremiah Wright had a point?”
“Christian television is embarrassing.”
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Our church is full of itself.
I can want the best for my kids and still send them to public schools.
I sing the songs while wondering if Jesus has left the building.
The pastor really doesn’t like kids, especially in his church service.
When I’m depressed I listen to Bruce Springsteen’s Badlands. It helps.
We treat our church staff like this is a business but we pay them like this is a church.
Our mission statement is to make disciple but the bottom line is to get people to attend church and give money. Really, the pastor made this crystal clear.
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This isn’t so much something I couldn’t say among my co-religionists, but rather something I struggle to say to other twenty-somethings:
‘People do not have to become or remain “fully convinced” of every aspect of the Christian faith in order begin discipleship to Jesus and to be healed and changed by God.’
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If God is Love, is God really going to keep someone out of Heaven for all eternity just because they didn’t “get it right”, “profess Jesus as their God and Savior” or “have a personal relationship with Jesus” or whatever other catch phrase a church requires during the short 50, 60 or 70 plus years here on Earth?
When are we going to quite setting “requirements” for salvation and just love each other?
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What can I NOT say? “I think MacArthur is full of crap on the alcohol issue.”
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Some for church, some for blogs:
-If I choose not to drink alcohol, it does not mean that I am not free.
-To the worship leader: You are not the next American Idol, get over it, just lead the song.
-I am pretty sure that God is not a Republican, but I am dead certain that Satan is a liberal Democrat.
-We haven’t grown in years, so we are still doing it this way why? Explain that to me again please…
-Who did the Catholics and bloggers whine about before there were Evangelicals?
-Do you think Jesus is cool with the way we ignore the poor?
-If the Bible is not accurate then exactly what is your guide? Your opinion? Your friends opinion? General consensus? How do you know? Is it going to be lonely being the only one who made it to Heaven?
-Yes, I will pray that your cousin finds a job, but it might help if he actually looks for one also.
-Could we have just one fellowship dinner without onions?
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From another angle, can anyone suggest how we might create a culture in our churches that encourages people to say the uncomfortable truths that need to be said? Suggestions that are as concrete and specific as possible would help.
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Hmm… the top two..
You all are so full of yourselves.
Harry Potter has some very profound spiritual truths in it.
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“I struggle with depression so much that most days I that feel suicide, for me, is inevitable”
“The only thing that keeps me from killing myself sometimes is the fear that I’ll disappoint Jesus”
“I’ve been on antidepressants for seven years”
“I’ve been more helped by 1 1/2 year of ‘secular’ therapy than four years of Bible college”
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I think I like the Jesus-shaped thing better. It really is a step toward making things better, rather than cursing the darkness.
Thesis 28 of Luther’s Heidelberg Disputation always challenges me: “The love of God does not first discover but creates what is pleasing to it. The love of man comes into being through attraction to what pleases it.” Luther expounded on this: “Rather than seeking its own good, the love of God flows forth and bestows good. Therefore sinners are attractive because they are loved; they are not loved because they are attractive. For this reason the love of man avoids sinners and evil persons.” Finally, Gerhard Forde adds the following: “God is not, as in the theology of glory, one who waits to approve those who have improved themselves, made themselves acceptable, or merited approval, but one who bestows good on the bad and needy.” – “On Being a Theologian of the Cross, p.113).
New life in Christ changes us from being merely consumers and critics to becoming creators and lovers. Rather than seeking out what is pleasing to us and becoming disappointed when we don’t find it, the Holy Spirit in us transforms us to be able to pour God’s love, meaning and value into where there was none in the first place. Jesus didn’t come seeking out perfect followers, perfect churches, perfect music or youth programs, etc. Instead, He chose a bunch of poor fisherman – whom many believed to be have been mostly teenagers. From those humble beginnings he laid the foundation of his church, against which the gates of hell still cannot prevail.
I don’t mean to be a downer. Trust me, I have my own list of things I wish I could say. I truly can empathize with those who have been deeply hurt by the failures of the church. Those who have failed us have probably also experienced failure from still others. I think iMonk said it before and it bears repeating: We all need to move on, pick up a brick, and start building. In his mercy.
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I’ve worked for years in the ministry and I now enjoy working at Wal-Mart better
I don’t like the way we do altar calls
Can we just skip church on Sunday nights? No one comes anyway
Can we just read and memorize Scripture on Wednesday nights and then go out for Pizza? Do we have to make some sort of “lesson” out of it?
Why can’t we read more Scripture in church?
Why do we do so many announcements?
Why don’t we preach on gluttony as a sin even though 1/3 of the congregation is overweight?
Why does our worship sound depressing?
Why do we do all topical/3rd grade level sermons, can’t we talk about hard stuff?
Why do we have deacons that act like elders when they’re not even qualified to do either one?
…..I have a lot more…..this was a good idea Michael.
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I guess I took the simplistic approach. Stand by to cue the boos…..If you don’t actually GO to church, then you don’t have to think about what you can or can’t say. While on the staff of a church, I said the things I thought. That went over well. I clearly realize that leaving “the church” is not really an answer. But in these ten years of non-attendance I still don’t miss putting up with all the BS to get to the good stuff.
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Didn’t Janie look hot in that dress today during worship?
Wow, did you see Tom’s body in those jeans and t-shirt at Bible Study today?
Why would you think poetic truth and metaphor is less valid as a vehicle for truth than scientific proof and journalistic proof? Why is creationism such a big deal for you?
When Paul says “all” he means every single person on earth, whether they profess Christ or not.
What does it mean that the word “Hell” didn’t really exist until about the 3rd century?
And as another person said, Why can’t we discuss anything and everything in church? What part of “in freedom Christ made us free” did we miss out on?
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Mine will probably go against the general consensus here, but they’re deeply felt nonethless…
1. Having a worship band that plays a wicked guitar solo is not more spiritual/relevant than playing the organ and having a choir. It will also not make the gospel more relevant to the youth; if they’re interested in God, the music won’t make them less interested, and if they’re not, it won’t make them more interested. That’s especially true of most modern worship choruses – they’re boring the first time around, and by the 4th repeat my eyes have glazed over.
2. Providing spiritual support and encouragement to older Christians is equally important – don’t act like old people are irrelevant because they’re already saved.
3. Why can there not be a place in the evangelical church for single adults? At one church I visited, I had 4 people in a row ask me where my husband was; the last one actually argued with me that I must have a husband – she’d seen me talking to a man earlier that day. It was enough to make me consider joining a convent.
4. I know a lot of churches hold that only men should be pastors, but where did this idiocy come up that women have nothing to contribute to theological discussions? If God gave me a theological mind, who are you to limit its expression to discussions of marriage and family life?
And last…for all the scathing comments directed at evangelicals, I’ve found traditional churches have their own shibboleths. At my evangelical church, I can’t talk about my appreciation for the choir, hymns or liturgy, but at the lutheran church I keep my mouth shut about my beliefs about communion and infant baptism, or they won’t let me take part in the communion. The catholics are equally emphatic about women toeing the line in terms of hierarchy. So bear in mind, there is no perfect denomination.
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I don’t mean to sound like a moderator, but I have to say great conversation! I relate to so many.
Pastor Hillyer, thanks for your unique perspective. I had a hunch that pastors were human like the rest of us.
Illysook, thanks for honestly. I bet there’s some Christian men that wouldn’t think twice about your previous life.
Bror, I gave your insightful post a lot of thought. My response is, it depends on the church and what I wanted to say. I really think the reason that I can’t say many of the things that I want to say, isn’t the fear of getting kicked out, but watching my value as a Christian, friend, person shrink in the eyes of the people that I say it to, and these are people that I want to relate to. It’s not imaginary either. I do say some of these things (which we “can’t say” and each time I do, I start to sense regret because people really become offended.
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– I’m not as good a Christian as I pretend to be at Church and with people from Church.
– The Bible isn’t a Science book
– Id rather have a good Female minister/preacher/bishop/pope than an average Male one.
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“I didn’t tithe this month.”
“I haven’t read Left Behind.”
“I find Bono a better theologian than .”
“Why is our church landscaping budget larger than our church planting budget?”
“I spent $22,750 less for my toilet than Joyce Meyer spent for hers.”
“Maybe we should insist that pastor travel with an accountability partner.”
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My husband?…um, no, he’s not here today…he’s at home with a hangover.
Let’s get a drink after the service.
I’d love to be a member but I was baptized as a child and don’t think I need to do it again.
My daughter’s boyfriend is not a Christian (yet).
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The music that your musicians write is melodically and lyrically nonsensensical.
Altering the tunes of centuries-old hymns doesn’t make them cool. It makes them impossible to sing.
Your “culturally relevant” music is only relevant to a small segment of the culture–namely people under the age of thirty who want their worship time to sound like their iPod playlists.
It is also TOO LOUD!
I don’t sing in church anymore.
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Here’s a few that ought make your hair curl…
“Your decision for Christ was a sham.”
” We do nothing at all to become Christians.”
“What’s with the lifting your hands to the sky, baloney?
“We love to baptise babies because we believe it is pleasing to God.”
” Roman Catholic and Non-Denominational theologies are virtually the same.”
” You have a pope, it’s just printed on paper and has ‘Holy Bible’ printed on the cover.”
That’s more than enough for now…
– Steve M.
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“I’ve started questioning the “myth of redemptive violence†and wondering if the reason that Christ died on that cross is really something that we can understand in the here and now, or if it is instead something that the new testament writers could only speculate on and perhaps is something that God plans to reveal to us at some point in the future.”
Illysook, the only problem with this one is that I’m not the one who thought to say it first. jk.
I don’t think any of the theories of the atonement perfectly explain what Christ accomplished on the cross. The ancient creeds merely stated that it was for man’s salvation and left it at that. Why do we think we have it figured out more than they did?
By the way, that last paragraph will probably get your in trouble in most churches as well.
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My numbering is off, by my last #6 should have been filed under “Statements that get me in trouble in general” 🙂
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Statements that get me in trouble in general:
1) Prayer will not guarantee me riches, success at my job, or a perfect marriage.
2) I don’t know if the things we spend most of our time debating really matter in the end.
3) Yes, I wish my father would get baptized, but he is still saved.
In trouble with my Protestant friends:
4) I was baptized Catholic as an infant, and no, I’m not going to be re-baptized as an adult.
5) History and tradition inform my views on doctrine and aid my interpretation of the Bible.
In trouble with my Catholic friends:
6) I’m not Catholic.
5) I was baptized Catholic as an infant, and no, I don’t need a formal declaration from the Church to leave it because I never joined it out of my own free will.
6) My marriage outside the Church is still valid.
6) I read imonk, listen to his podcasts, and sometimes agree with him.
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I don’t have daily devotions.
I’m pulling my kid out of Sunday School because it sucks and will damage his faith.
Our Sunday School curricula is barely even Christian.
I don’t think our church should support that Missionary becuase he acts like an ass.
What does Mother’s day/Father’s Day/Flag Day/Fourth of July have to do with worshipping Christ?
I hate “personal testimonies” and any time devoted to them during services.
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at a recent family reunion – my uncle:
“The only time we hear the organ anymore is when there’s a funeral.”
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“I’m mailing you an Osteen book, Bill. Just hold on….”
I forgot to add that it was something I can’t say on this thread because I knew I’d be insulted 🙂
I dunno – I don’t think there’s much one “can’t” say around other Christians or the church. I just think there’s things you may be afraid to say. But I don’t see why. I live in Red State Texas and attend a church where every pastor has hunting trophies in their office and my guess is 90% of the people voted for GWB in the last election . . . yet two of our most beloved student workers are hard-core Democrats. So I don’t get all the fear about saying you’re a democrat.
And, to be serious, I think a bigger problem than feeling you can’t be honest in church is being fake in church. And having the mindset that “other Christians” and “the church” is “them”, instead of what it really is – “us”.
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Dispensationalism sounds like a crock.
Does is REALLY matter if there is a rapture, and if there is one if it is pre, mid or post Trib? What if there is no actual “great tribulation?”
“End Times” prophecies and general eschetology have NOTHING to do with the good news of the Gospel.
Preterism makes a lot of sense.
Creeds and Confessions are well and good, but as near as I can tell the thief on the cross had memorized neither.
I can praise God listening to a ripping guitar solo just as much as YOU can praise God listening to a lofty organ solo.
Sometimes I’ve just got to have a beer.
What part of “DOers” of the Word don’t you understand?
The pastor is wrong.
Just because someone has the title of “pastor” doesn’t mean they are extra godly or are suddenly endowed with perfect judgment.
I dig on the music from Jesus Christ Super Star.
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Here’s my list
1- I don’t believe in the rapture
2- I’m neither a pre or post millenist,I don’t know what will happen
3- I would love to hear regular sermons based on the New Testament 90% of sermons in my church are from Old Testament
4-All sermons include section on why this old testament episode in sermon is really about Jesus so David, Joseph, Samuel, Moses etc are all types of Jesus. Please rescue me, I’d love a straight forward sermon based on the text for a change!
5-Please stop putting endless pressure on teens to “get saved” at highly charged youth events, lay off them!!God loves them, they need to be allowed room to get to know him.
I’m in mouring at the prospect of the demise of Internet Monk, God bless your work now and in the future
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I used to be a part of the sex industry and I can talk about it in an honest way with my secular counselor and with a lot of the people in my everyday life, but at church, well…it’s just plain weird.
When I was looking for some healing from my experiences in the sex industry and the minister put me into some kind of class on “sexual integrity” as if I were again eleven years old and needed to learn right from wrong!?
I’d really like to get married, but I’m not so keen on marrying an evangelical man. I’ve met a few and most of them seem like they would want to stone a woman like me.
I have a degree in psychology and I don’t think that observing human behavior and making predictions based on those observations (y’know…the scientific method) is anti-biblical.
I’ve started questioning the “myth of redemptive violence” and wondering if the reason that Christ died on that cross is really something that we can understand in the here and now, or if it is instead something that the new testament writers could only speculate on and perhaps is something that God plans to reveal to us at some point in the future.
I don’t think that every story in the bible has to be literally true in order for it to contain truth. For example, the three different creation stories!
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The reason I don’t go to the prayer group is because I get the impression that God is being nagged there and it pisses me off.
Yeah, God really does love everyone and he’s more worried about loving everything than he is about who he gets to send to hell.
I believe in Resurrection and I’m not a naive idiot.
I believe that God really does care about the poor and we should too and, no, I’m not an unbelieving heretic.
I think that God cares more about who we help than what doctrine we have.
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not exactly “something you can’t say…” but a friend in my parish finally gets around to browsing my blog and instead of commenting on one of the posts, asks me with alarm in the parking lot about the “very anti-Catholic stuff” which, it turns out, is an autogenerated link WordPress added (and who am I to say by what algorithm our Lord might use crosslinks) to my posting.
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So I wonder, just for thought. How many of these things we list are things we really can’t say? Will you get kicked out of church for them, and ostracized for them? Or are they just things that if you said them would open up a discussion you don’t want to have? Is it not so much not that you can’t say them, but you don’t want them to be questioned? Could you defend them if they were questioned? Are you afraid you will get answers if you ask?
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The universe is billions of years old…
Private Bible interpretation without a magisterium is plainly wrong and a ridiculous idea…
The reformation is over…
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Michael,
Great post. I happen to be a preacher so I come at this from a different sort of point of viewishness. I have a few.
*I really wish you people would get the idea behind the prayer chain.
*I really enjoy Metallica riffs, Alice in Chains harmonies, and Jim Morrison’s vocals.
*I spend most of my waking hours thoroughly depressed and unable to come up with a single answer to anyone else’s problems because I have enough of my own to deal with.
*I hate ‘calling’ on ‘prospects,’ ‘sick people,’ ‘nursing home people,’ ‘widows.’ I hate calling.
*Stop telling me the sermon was ‘good’ or ‘great.’
*Stop hugging me on Sunday mornings or every time you see me. I don’t like hugs from my own mother. I don’t need your hugs to validate your love.
*The organ needs to go. This congregation is too old.
*I’m tired.
*I don’t want to put a roof on the parsonage; let’s hire it out.
*I don’t want to publish a monthly newspaper, it was fun when I was 23, now it is a waste of paper.
*I need to make a little more money and probably cannot go another two years without a raise of some sort or another.
*Must people complain about everything?
*It’s OK for my children to ‘act out’ every now and again. After all, they are children too.
*You really need to get YOUR child under control.
*Where are your children?
*You’re wrong.
*You’re right.
*I don’t know. I know.
*I can’t tonight.
*Can you do it? Help?
I too could go on all day. Now, don’t get me wrong, this is just what I have learned after 13 years of preaching. My point is that I have learned the hard way: I have said all these at one point or another to someone. Now I am learning to pray.
Grace & Peace.
jerry
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I haven’t read the bible in weeks.
I am reading “The Catcher in the Rye”.
I don’t Like Christian music all that much.
I love My Chemical Romance.
I grew up in the Pentecostal movement and thought I would know exactly what to teach my kids. However, after having three, the oldest being 15, I realize I know nothing.
I have MadTV clips favorited on my youtube account.
I take antidepressants. My faith obviously didn’t pull me out of my depression. Thank God for good drugs!
I could go on, but I’ll stop. BTW Michael, thanks for all the great stuff you’ve written here. You have been a big help to me.
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Honesty? Truth? Vulnerability?
I don’t know, they are like salt, don’t add too much or it doesn’t taste good. 🙂
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Regarding criticism:
I don’t think this group of Post-Evangelical (or whatever label you want to use) is not more critical than those within Evangelicalism, but it is the direction of our criticism that differs.
Basically (getting back to the original question of what you can’t say), you can not criticize anything labeled as “Christian.” But MUST criticize everything that is labeled “non-Christian.”
Best personal example:
I grew up in very conservative Baptist church. It was common place for the Preacher (or just church folks) to criticize the “Queers and whores,” yet . . . our youth pastor/choir director Jack was performing sex acts on many of the young boys (including my brother). I remember my parents (especially after what happened to my brother) saying “judge not least you be judge” when they referred to Jack. Everyone just looked the other way. The reason? This was the 60s and Jack had short hair, didn’t listen to the devil’s music, and was a great gospel singer . . . in other words “Christian.”
Yet, when I read Jesus, I see him as being highly critical of the religious and compassionate on the sinners.
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*edit* the above should say:
“Swearingâ€, “cursing†and “cussing†are NOT synonyms.
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Some others:
Saying grace over every meal isn’t a commandment.
“Swearing”, “cursing” and “cussing” are synonyms.
“Witness” is something you are, not something you do.
I think celibacy for pastors and priests is a good thing.
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We’re missing the full picture when we gloss over the (biblical) feminine imagery and attributes of God.
I cringe when you use “Him” every single time you speak of God.
I don’t know what I think about the “issue” of homosexuality, but I’m leaning over to the Peggy Campolo side of things.
Evolution is compatible with a Creator God.
I like drinking.
Honest faith questions in “secular” indie songs hit me harder than most of the worship music I hear.
I don’t believe in a division between sacred and secular.
I’m not sure that this is what those first Christians meant by “church.”
I don’t understand prayer. I don’t think it works the way most of us believe it does.
I think that most of what we argue about is a mystery. In fact, I think that there might be more than one right answer. Or that we are not capable of understanding the right answer.
It sounds to me like the Bible contradicts itself.
I don’t believe in the “automatic writing” version of biblical inspiration.
I have questions about “inerrancy.” Lots of them.
I’m a socialist.
I’m a pacifist.
I think the pastor is an egomaniac.
I think I wouldn’t have like many of our biblical heroes.
I hate reading Bible stories to my kids every night, because I struggle with their questions at least as much as they do.
I wanted to be a missionary, but I changed my mind because I think a “primitive” culture is better off worshiping God as they’ve come to know God.
I don’t know what I believe about the idea of heaven I grew up with.
I don’t know what I believe about the idea of hell I grew up with.
I feel more connected to God when I sit by the ocean than in when I’m in a church service.
I’m not going to feel guilty anymore for my doubts and questions.
Well… that felt good. Thanks.
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Can’t we just have a conversation without an opening prayer?
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Um, when you hold up your bible and tell us “This book is inerrant.” you aren’t really telling us the truth, even by your definition of inerrancy (unless of course you are talking to KJV only preacher).
If I hear ‘it’s not about religion it’s about relationship’ one more time, I’m getting up and walking out.
All sins are not equal, some are worse than others. If you don’t believe me, check out what Jesus said (John 19:11)
I don’t think the ‘signs of the times’ point to Jesus coming back in the next decade.
I would tell you how I’m really feeling, but I don’t want to hear some meaningless cliche nor do I want advice on how to ‘fix’ things either.
Most of us are more followers of Adam Smith than we are of Jesus Christ.
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Michael,
Any chance we could form a special church for all these earnest sheep-ste… I mean, ardent zealots for the True Faith, and leave them all to it?
Problem is, I still love these folks–many of those things were done by friends–and I could never bring myself to tell them how deeply hurtful their good intentions have been. People You Love Who Keep on Hurting You is probably the secret Fifth Mark of the Church.
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In the church I grew up in I always heard that we believed in freedom of conscience, the right of private interpretation, the priesthood of the believer, soul competency and the sacred right to differ from the majority.
Yeah, you’d expect all these independent splinter churches to be real anarchistic; after all, they’re into Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation. “Jesus and Me” and that’s it.
In my experience, they are the most conformist and abusive, with an ever-lengthening list of What Is Forbidden (everything except Bible Study and Witnessing) and whatever is not forbidden is compulsory. If I want that sort of thing, I’d go to Wahabi Islam or INGSOC.
I heard about all of that, and I heard that it was other denominations, with their bishops and their hierarchies, that were hung up on conformity all the way down the line.
Funny… I ended up swimming the Tiber to find a Church that patronized the arts, that appreciated learning, that had a universe instead of a punyverse. The “bishops and heirarchies” gave me structure and historical continuity, and I’ve never encountered the cheap trick tactics o.h. has listed on this bank of the Tiber.
I’m forwarding you my collection of 135 emails trying to convert me to Catholicism. Including the one written first person as Jesus 🙂
IMonk, looks like you’ve been targeted by the Order of St Borg, i.e. “You WILL Become Catholic! Prepare to be Assimilated! Resistance Is Futile! We’re Gonna Getcha! We’re Gonna Getcha! We’re Gonna Getcha!”
Think of it as the Catholic version of Wretched Urgency Witnessing. (Which is in itself a bit bizarre; high-pressure salesmanship to rack up converts is more an Evangelical thing; usually when Catholics flake out, it’s some form of Mary Obsession.)
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o.h.:
I’m forwarding you my collection of 135 emails trying to convert me to Catholicism. Including the one written first person as Jesus 🙂
I’m glad you’re on my team 🙂 You’re a person who understands.
peace
MS
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Now that I’ve said all the things I can’t say on my own blog because my Catholic friends read it, here’s the things I can’t say on it because my Evangelical and Baptist friends read it.
My dear friends in Christ, what were you *thinking* when you…
… invited me to a Bible study where the materials turned out to be full of anti-Catholic half-truths and libels? And then kept putting me on the spot to respond, when I’d thought we were just all going to study the Bible together as fellow Christians?
… invited my little girl to an AWANA meeting, where I discovered that her little friend was given points toward toys for having brought an unsaved friend to the meeting?
… asked that same small child if she wouldn’t love to come back and be part of that church, tempting her with the toys she’d won? After *I* had just politely declined your same offer? Did you know that on the car ride home I had to explain to a 6-year-old about Christians who don’t think Jesus has saved her?
… told a group of us, your Catholic friends, that we would *love* your church, we’d fit right in, because more than half of the congregation are ex-Catholics?
… wrapped up a funeral for a friend’s father with an endless altar call, where half the people in attendance were Catholics or non-Christians? Did you catch the aghast looks on our faces?
Never mind, I think I know what you were thinking. I still love all of y’all, and I know y’all love me. Which is why I keep running up and then falling flat when the football is snatched away.
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I’m mailing you an Osteen book, Bill. Just hold on…. 🙂
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Wow Matthew,
You weren’t kidding. You really can’t say that can you?
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I can’t bring my (non Christian) friends here because I don’t want them to get the wrong impression about Jesus
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Something I can’t say on this thread . . .
Reading the complaints of Christians about other Christians all day long on the blogosphere depresses the crap out of me.
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When you guys say “It’s Jesus” and “It’s body and blood,” we’re all good, but when anyone says the “JUST A SYMBOL” sentence, you ruin everything.
If a person does believe in symbol, they don’t believe it’s JUST a symbol. They believe it is really Jesus present. If they deny Jesus is present, send them to me.
And if you believe it is the body and blood, you STILL BELIEVE every lab in the universe would disagree with you on the material level. You believe Jesus is present through a miracle.
No one gets points for miracle presence over symbol presence. Presence is presence. Jesus is Jesus. Skip the rest PLEASE..
Can we PLEASE PLEASE stop this discussion of what we all think is so obvious. We look at elements, say words, believe things, experience Jesus. Now just leave it alone.
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“I’m right,”or
“You’re wrong, and here is why.”
“Both of us can be wrong, but we can’t both be right.”
Dogma is good.
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I don’t want to help teach Sunday School.
I don’t know if the earth is old or young, and it doesn’t matter to me either way.
My favorite show as a kid was Bewitched, and my daughter spends a lot of time pretending she is at Hogwarts.
I love my two kids, but I will cry for weeks if I ever get pregnant again.
I miss the stained glass and liturgy of my childhood.
I think women should be able to be pastors.
I love to put the music on from my college days and play it really loud. Especially the Violent Femmes.
I gave up trying to have a daily quiet time, and more importantly, I gave up the guilt.
I wish more Christians were fun.
This topic really hit home. I’ve been listening to Steve Brown’s Scandalous Freedom podcasts, and have been convicted to be more authentic. Maybe if I start to be honest at church I’ll hear, “You too?”
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The associate priest’s sermon was very evocative, but I missed the part where she gave us any real content.
Actually, I quite like incense.
I think the whole modern liturgical movement sucks and is the crappiest set of prayers ever devised by man.
The word “mankind.”
I think we should all stand for the reading of the Gospel at the “contemporary” service. Also, the priest should wear robes. And a stole.
Don’t you think a fresco or two would really brighten things up in here? And gold leaf, too. Lots of it.
To my non-Anglican friends: No, seriously, it is Jesus. The bread is his flesh and the wine is his blood. I eat and drink the flesh and blood of the Saviour most Sundays. No no no no no. Not a symbol.
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Could the pastor please quote the whole verse(s) in context?
I don’t want to shake your hand that you just sneezed into.
We can’t have kids; we don’t know why; so stop asking .
Did your wife/teenage daughter forget to put on their blouse this morning?
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Here’s a few for me:
Want to go grab a beer?
I hardly listen to Christian music.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with asking saints or Mary to pray for you.
I’m thinking of voting Democrat this time.
I don’t really like contemporary-style church services that much.
I don’t care if my daughter marries a black man as long as he passionately follows God and passionately loves her.
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I like the Latin Mass better. I homeschool. I like to have a head covering when I worship.
(but)
I’m still a Democrat.
We Christians in general, and we Catholics in particular, love to imagine that we’re perscuted. Google for “last acceptable prejudice” and count the number of groups eager to seize the title.
I love the Psalms and Gospels, but most of the rest of the Bible bores me silly.
Everyone I’ve ever met who read and really liked the Catholic convert books (Surprised by Truth, Rome Sweet Home, etc.) were already practicing Catholics. The one Protestant friend who read them was offended, not convinced.
My husband is a convinced atheist, and he’s more deeply, convictedly moral than most Christians I know. He’d risk his life for a stranger and gives to charity until it hurts. He comes to Mass more than many of the supposedly Catholic husbands of my friends. And I keep quiet or say he’s an “agnostic” because I can’t stand y’all’s smug pity.
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I know there are taboos in the church, but I ignore them, and sometimes deliberately violate them. Christians should be able to talk about anything and everything with one another, and when we demonstrate otherwise, we’re teaching hypocrisy.
Sometimes the responses I get are shock and horror (and nervous looks up into the sky in case Zeus might throw a thunderbolt at me). Once my pastor angrily got up, told me off, and left my bible study ’cause I pushed his political buttons. (We patched things up later.) But most of the time I just get complimented for my honesty. Maybe I’m just not controversial enough.
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Evangelical Christianity caters to Biblical and scientific ignorance.
Evolution has been proven true beyond reasonable doubt.
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I hurt.
I don’t pray the rosary.
I’m called to the single life. (I’ve gotten interesting reactions both as a Baptist and as a Catholic to this statement.)
I read my horoscope daily.
God has a sense of humor.
Where’s the stained glass windows?
That was lucky.
We have the ability to choose to do both good and bad. (Not giving God all the responsibility for the good and you all the responsibility for the bad.)
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I doubt the whooooole shooting match. God’s existence. The Resurrection. The whole thing. I believe it, but lots of days, I barely believe it.
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One time, some church dude asked me about my opinion of inerrancy. I said, “I believe everything the Bible claims about itself.”
He informed me that was heresy.
Never did comprehend that one.
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I don’t want to go to your church because I will just get mad when your preacher starts preaching about doctrine I disagree with.
I hate “holiday sundays” where the whole church service focuses on a hallmark holiday theme. I love you, Mom and Dad, veterans, etc.. but what does that have to do with the gospel again?
I don’t clap or sing, out of spite, because I know that’s how you’re assessing and gauging my level of “spirituality”.
You’re not fooling anyone.
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Hey, I love it. Great thoughts.
The list is too long to even think of in one setting. I know that once I experience my third birth (not a mystical strike of lightening but a gradual disillusionment with Evangelicalism) I made a commitment, one between God and myself, that I would be (or at least try to be) honest at all cost . . . and it does cost a lot. It can be very, very lonely being a Post-Evangelical in an Evangelical world (EW). The only thing that is lonelier is leaving the EW and trying to go at it alone. Enough commentary, now to my list.
I feel like crap today.
Crap.
I’m confused.
I don’t know the answer.
I like to sleep late.
Denise (my wife) and I had a fight.
My kids (fill in the blank) did such and such (something that isn’t perfect).
That really pisses me off.
That really pisses God off (things like evil people killing innocent people).
I may vote for Obama.
The pastor is a micro-manager and dominates everything (fill in the blank with some other imperfection).
Sometimes I’m so depressed.
I love Starbucks Mochas (someone will comment how many calories they have, that they cost too much and people are starving in Africa etc.).
I love watching SNL.
My kids loved Harry Potter.
I loved Monty Python.
I feel like a cold beer.
Denise and I want to go straight home after church to have sex (the kids are out of the house.)
I love (fill in the blank . . . anything secular, music, movie, art, book)!
I watched ______ on TV (someone will comment how they don’t allow TV in there house).
We were missionaries and it WAS NOT A BLESSING . . . it was hell!
We chose NOT to home-school our kids.
I’m scared.
I’m worried.
I smelled a fart in church and had to hold my breath.
That/I was lucky.
I don’t think God gives a rat’s ass about which parking spot I will get at the mall.
She got better because the medicine worked. It wasn’t a miracle (unless you realize that everything created by God, including smart practitioners and biochemist is really a miracle).
I love hiking in the mountains more than coming to church.
That sermon was boring.
Okay, I could add many more buy I’m watching TV right now.:>)
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