Do Baptists Believe “Once Saved, Always Saved?”

73 thoughts on “Do Baptists Believe “Once Saved, Always Saved?””

1. I am not fully understanding the problem hear, once saved always saved, i whole heartedly believe that, i believe that when it say that Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. I believe that is what it means, it didn’t say but if you mess up and sin that you are no longer saved, i believe that we are to repent daily cause we sin daily, anyone who says they don’t sin is a liar and Gods not in them, i am not a bible scholar, i just believe, For all have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD, its not what i do its what i have accepted to believe, Christ already saved the world when he died on the cross, all we have to is have the faith to believe, if a believer falls on his journey are we suppose to say ohh your not saved because you don’t live it, well i doubt any of us live it everyday, we are to lift him or her up in prayer, and if the LORD abides inside they will change, but you can’t depend on works to earn salvation, it is on;y through Jesus Christ so when the Bible speaks about nothing can pluke from the hand of GOD why wouldn’t i believe that, no matter what i do or say if i believe what the bible says who made anyone a judge to say your not saved, when GOD says i am because i believe, do people doubt there salvation at times…sure they do.. but i don’t mean there not saved we are so wraped up so tight in GOD that no one can take our salvation not even ourselves because of John 3:16 I have everlasting life, Its in the heart of the believer, so i believe that once you are saved you are always saved, why would anyone want to crucify JESUS over and over when all it took was one time to cover all mans sins.

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2. I’ll be honest with you. I have a real problem with the “once saved, always saved” or “eternal security” teachings. I’ve heard some Baptists say that if you are really saved that you will continue living for Christ but then say that if you are in open sin you are not lost. I had a conversation with an ordained Baptist pastor friend of mine that is always trying to push the “once saved, always saved” doctrine off on me. As he was quoting the hand full of scriptures he always uses I asked him this question. “Are you telling me that if a serial killer is saved and lives for Christ for a while and decides to go back to his old ways of being a serial killer that he is still saved?” His reply to me was “yes that’s right”. Then I said, “You mean he can be right in the middle of murdering someone and cutting up their body pieces when the rapture takes place that he will go up in the rapture with all those in Christ?” His reply to me was “Yes that is what I am saying”. To me that is scary. 1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
   God’s word is very clear “no murderer hath eternal life abiding (staying) in him.”

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3. Current research indicates that less than 6% of Southern Baptists are Calvinists. That is why the confessions you are listing either were never used by Southern Baptists or were only used in Calvinist strand of the SBC.

   The Baptist Faith and Message is the confession of those churches that want to use a confession approved by the entire convention. But NONE of these listed or even the BFM is binding in ANY WAY on a single SBC church.

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4. I was just looking at the confessions and I know they don’t have the phrase “once saved always saved”, but the different confessions mention terms like, eternally saved, other confessions use eternally secure, or eternal security, to my knowledge only those who follow Calvinism teach eternal security. Which are mainly in Presbyterian, Brethren or various Baptist Churches, I think the Southern Baptist are struggling with this now.

   When I read various confessions I see the Calvinist eternally secure doctrine within them and speaking in terms of only those who are elect. Once a person knows of his election and converts he will always be secure in his salvation til the end and nothing he can do can change that, if a person does (backslide – sin) then they were never elect or a true convert to begin with. This is how I was understanding eternal security (once saved always saved.) So someone help me out if I am reading more into the eternal security than need be.

   Philadelphia Baptist Confession
   Westminster Confession of Faith
   Standard Confession of 1660
   First London Baptist Confession of Faith
   Second London Baptist Confession of Faith
   New Hampshire Confession of Faith
   Abstract of Principles

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5. btaggs:

   1) Southern Baptist affiliation isn’t “bestowed.” Independent, autonomous churches CHOOSE to cooperate with other churches in what is called the Southern Baptist Convention. There is no doctrinal oversight beyond determining if a church is “of like faith and order” and that is quite subjective.

   2) The cooperation of other Baptist churches and associations with a church is the most significant factor in it being SBC. Obviously a church can be Baptist and deny the “P.” And whether that church would be associated with and recognized by other Baptist churches would vary widely.

   3) There is no denomination. The SBC is an association of autonomous congregations who associate in certain ways and at certain times.

   4) “Once Saved Always Saved” is not confessional or institutional language anywhere in the SBC. Perseverance is confessional language. They may mean the same to you, but they don’t to many of us in the SBC.

   As I said, the most you can say is that on a popular level, some Baptists like that phrase.

   peace

   MS

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6. Thank you for the information on points 1 through 3.

   However on point 4 I would respectfully disagree with the statement:

   “one can’t reasonably say Southern Baptists “believe” once saved always saved in any way other than popular perception or voluntary affirmation”

   Personally I don’t see how anyone could reasonably come to any other conclusion. Perhaps we are not in agreement with what “Once saved always saved” means. I simply see it as 5th point of Calvinism “Perseverance of the Saints”. Which is aliased as “Once Saved always saved” by others.

   http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

   Conversely, I don’t’ believe “Once saved always saved” is meant to infer that simply because one claims Salvation or has preformed an act that someone claims is a requirement for Salvation, that they in fact are Saved. From my point of view (possibly out of sync with the mainstream thinking) it simply means that once in Grace always in Grace, that Salvation once obtained can NOT be lost.

   I don’t personally hold to that position, but I have always respected it as an honest belief of my Southern Baptist brothers. So I am just trying to clarify this in light of comments made here and not trying to be argumentative.

   Since you are obviously knowledgeable on Southern Baptist doctrine and policies, I have a question: Would a Church be allowed to keep it’s Southern Baptist affiliation if it openly taught contrary to the Perseverance of the Saints or for that matter, against the Baptist Faith and Message?

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7. 1) No Baptist church is obligated in any way to the Baptist Faith and Message. It is the confession used by many Southern Baptists, but they use others or are free to write their own or have none.

   2) The IMB and other entities of the Southern Baptist Convention are extensions of the cooperative work of Southern Baptists through their voluntary financial gifts.

   3) The Baptism policy of the IMB is not the policy of many Baptist churches and is controversial for that very reason. The IMB’s standards are approved by its trustees, not by the SBC or any church in the SBC.

   4) The confessional language you quoted does not contain the phrase “once saved always saved.” I don’t mean to be obtuse, but one can’t reasonably say Southern Baptists “believe” once saved always saved in any way other than popular perception or voluntary affirmation. The convention has avoided that phrase in all official doctrinal statements.

   thanks

   MSpencer

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8. For my own edification, Is there no Southern Baptist affiliation with the IMB or Baptist Press? I assumed (yes I know where that leads) the Southern Baptist organization was the authoritative body over both.

   Ok, let’s see if I can come to understand just what does the Baptist doctrine say regarding eternal security. Is this not part of the Baptist Faith and Message (2000).

   http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp

   ”
   V. God’s Purpose of Grace
   ….

   All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.
   ”

   If this in not correct please point me in the write direction so that I may obtain a correct reading.

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9. bstaggs:

   That’s is missionary appointment policy at the IMB. It has nothing- zero- zilch- to do with any Baptist church or confession.

   Baptist doctrine isn’t dictate by Baptist Press, the IMB or any Baptist entity.

   The Baptist Faith and Message- our most common confession- doesn’t use that language.

   thanks

   MSpencer

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10. Greetings,

    According to what I read, Baptism in a Southern Baptist Church is not considered valid unless it’s from a Church that embraces “the doctrine of the security of the believer.”

    http://www.baptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?id=25616

    The baptism guideline stated candidates must have been baptized in a Southern Baptist church or in a church of another denomination that practices believer’s baptism by immersion alone. Also, the baptism must not be viewed as sacramental or regenerative, and the candidate’s church must embrace the doctrine of the security of the believer.

    Are we saying that there is a difference between “Once saved always saved” and “the doctrine of the security of the believer”? Does the Southern Baptist not have that documented somewhere? Are they honestly claiming that those of us who do not share this belief are somehow not saved or that our Baptism (in the Lords name) is insufficient?

    I have a lot of Baptist Brothers who are at odds with the passage of this. If memory serves me correctly, there was even conflict with the board membership of this (and others) issues at the time.

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11. This is ridiculous.
    Michael you know well that if a person is saved they are saved.
    End.Period. No more discussion.
    Who is is saved might be a topic but unfortunately for our purposes only God knows for sure.
    It is one of the great issues I have with the RCC and all worked-based tenets.
    Except, that I’m beginning to see that maybe the RCC’s point of view is not that different than mine and yours for this issue.
    There is still all that Mary stuff. Hard to get past.

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12. I don’t see how this is a problem of tenses. Anyone who “WILL be saved” must also “BE saved” at some point in time. In the framework laid down by the 1689 Confession, you can’t have one without the other. You and the people you are trying to correct both hold to a punctiliar moment of salvation, before which one is a child of wrath and after which all things become new. And you both agree, furthermore, that anyone who has truly experienced that moment is IN for good–unable to fall away. The only relevant disagreement I can see is that you emphasize that this must be an interior event–genuine repentance and faith in Christ–while some others speak as if it is an action we can choose to perform–walking an aisle, repeating a prayer, or willing ourselves to accept certain propositions about Jesus. It’s a disagreement over what constitutes the moment of salvation.

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13. I use it all the time, but I understand its a three tense word. A lot of people don’t and that’s the OSAS problem.

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14. > I’m sure we understand one another

    Well, this is the first time I’ve understood that you’re objecting not only to “once PRAYED always saved,” but also to that very usage of the word “saved” by which it refers to the status of the Christian before the resurrection.

    I understand that second objection, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a Christian saying, “I _am_ saved.” According to sight, it’s not true yet, but according to faith, it is. It’s the same sort of statement as “He that believeth on me shall never die.” Do you disagree?

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15. Eric: Please note the Future tense:

    >…but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved

    The Confession doesn’t use the term “saved” the way it’s used in popular Baptist discussion. Once “saved” in popular conception = “once you’ve done one of the things we equate with becoming a Christian.” The Confession realizes that saving faith MUST persevere.

    I’m sure we understand one another and just disagree.

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16. > One of you guys want to tell me what’s the point?

    MY point (not speaking for any other “guys”) is that you are objecting to the assumption that everyone who ever prays the sinner’s prayer is saved, NOT to the idea that once you’re saved, you’re always saved. That latter idea IS bedrock Baptist confessionalism, as the first sentence you quoted from the 1689 Confession proves.

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17. This is one of the reasons the Founder’s Movement exists in the SBC: to take the denomination back to its roots. Visit http://www.founders.org to learn more.

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18. Michael,

    I stand corrected as far as the institutional level goes. You’re right that on a institutional, denominational level the SBC is indeed confessional as denomination leaders, seminary professors, missionaries, and others do have to adhere to confessions such as the BFM. Clearly on that level confessions matter a great deal.
    This certainly has a big ripple effect throughout the denomination. Still, on the ground things are often a bit different and I don’t think it is a matter of poor teaching. I knew plenty of people growing up (I think of some of the knowledgeable and godly Sunday school and youth Bible study teachers I had) who were very committed Christians and knew their Bible well. Yet they probably didn’t have the foggiest notion about Baptist confessions, or at least I never heard a thing about them. I daresay that similarly committed laypeople in the LCMS or PCA will generally have a much stronger awareness and knowledge of their confessions than their Baptists counterparts.
    Perhaps it is inaccurate to say that Baptists aren’t a confessional people. But I still don’t think that confessions shape life on the ground in your average Baptist church the way it does at Lutheran and Presbyterian churches. Perhaps that is, however, because Baptists are free churchmen.

    rr

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19. “Once Saved, Always Saved”….Yes. This is an excellent post due to the fact that you provided all proofs written from examined scriptures and their knowledges…love it!! Mostly , I enjoyed the write up from 1689 The Second London of Christian Faith on Confessions…..hummm..This is good! Also, once saved , always saved…written in the book of Romans; “For Man is without Excuse”….therefore it is through our Faith and our perseverences that we are kept for His own….and truly saved.yep
    Rahab

    Confessions….a great part of the “Real Christian Life”….room for the transforming; NOT the claiming of “no need” I’m already there….yipes.

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20. … a Baptist who publically says the BFM is wrong won’t be heard from very long in the SBC at any level.

    Excellent. I wish we Catholics had such an effective enforcement mechanism. Priests (and laity) can thumb their noses at the Church’s doctrines for years and not only get away with it, but be rewarded and honored.

    Strangely, though, we are the ones labeled as rigid, dogmatic, intolerant, doctrinaire, and so forth. The laity are robots programmed to mindlessly repeat Vatican decrees, led by God’s Rotweiler who was previously in charge of the modern-day Inquisition. (I should note that iMonk does not say these sort of things, but others do).

    More seriously, I think confessions are very important. They bring clarity and unity. They enable Christians to spread the Good News more effectively. But they are helpful only to the extent they are taught and understood. All of us, whatever confessions we follow, would do well to learn them more thoroughly.

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21. The implication is that if I can do anything to nullify the grace of God then I can also do something to deserve the grace of God.
    I can do nothing.
    All of the works-based cults (which is a sure sign of cult) and all of the works-based schisms need to know that grace is beyond our actions or thoughts.

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22. If it is possible for ust to act or behave or think in a way to lose salvations then it is possible for us to act or behave or think in some way to attain it.
    Neither is possilble. Period. All arguments are null.

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23. Actually this is not that complicated.

    We can do nothing to save ouselves.

    We can do nothing to condemn ourselves after salvation.

    Easy.

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24. The BFM has been adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention since the 1920’s, in three major forms.

    All SBC missionaries, professors and employees receiving denominational funding must affirm it.

    The SBC has had a number of major doctrinal issues that were resolved by the BFM. I can assure you that in Baptist life, most of us feel the BFM is authoritative.

    In addition, other confessions are common, including the New Hampshire and increasingly the 2nd London. Any church may adopt a confession, but its confession is the basis by which other Baptist congregations, associations and entities deal with that congregation. Therefore the vast majority of churches use the BFM in order to associate together for the largest missionary force in Protestantism, 6 seminaries and much much more.

    Our seminaries are all confessional. Professors must sign the confessions publically in order to teach. My alma mater, SBTS, vigorously uses its own confession, the Abstract of Principles, as its confession.

    Every church I have served in has the BFM in its constitution and it is the confession used overwhelmingly as the standard for sunday school teachers and other leaders. Most churches devote some time to study of the BFM in their Christian education program.

    The entire Founder’s movement is premised on the recovery of the historical CONFESSIONAL Baptist faith of the past when our denomination was vigorously confessional at every level.

    Let me be clear: While the BFM is used in churches, associations and throughout the SBC as a standard, it does NOT operate like the Lutheran confessions.

    But to say it isn’t authoritative or important is simply not true. I urge you to consult any number of works of Baptist history, or the volumes of Baptist confessions that are still published.

    Of course our people are poorly taught and know little of their own theology. And what is any different about that than Lutherans or Presbys?

    Baptists have confessions and those confessions have been and are very important in Baptist life. But as free churchmen, and free, autonomous congregations, we do not use our confessions in the same way as Lutherans. Ministers do not have to subscribe it, but a Baptist who publically says the BFM is wrong won’t be heard from very long in the SBC at any level.

    peace

    MS

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25. quote: “As I’ve tried to point out, Baptists are a confessional people, no matter how independent they are or how eclectic they are in the confessions they use or how they use them. If a Baptist church wants to be recognized by other Baptist churches, they are going to have to have a confession of faith somewhere as some kind of community expression.”

    Michael,

    Are Baptists really a confessional people? I ask this question in all honesty, because my experience suggests otherwise. I grew up SBC and never even knowing what confessions were until I went to college and first began to be exposed to other Christian traditions. I’d say my experience is fairly typical. I’m not saying that Baptists don’t have common beliefs that hold them together. Far from it. Most would recognize the Baptist Faith and Message as basically describing what they believe in, even if they hadn’t read the document or even heard of it. I’m just not convinced that most Baptists in the SBC could be described as “a confessional people” since confessions rarely shape Baptist life or are seen in any way as authoritative.
    I imagine that if I went back to the SBC megachurch where I grew up and asked what people thought about Baptist Confessions, most of my old friends would first ask “what’s a confession?” After explaining what these are, they might think they are kind of neat as historical documents, but I doubt they would see them as binding in any way.
    I doubt one would get such a response at a conservative Lutheran or Reformed church, where the Lutheran or Reformed confessions actually carry a fair amount of weight. Now, I realize that things might also be different at a Founders/Reformed Baptist church. But they are in the minority.
    So can Baptists, especially the majority of the SBC, be called “a confessional people”? I’m not convinced this description is accurate, though I’d be more than pleased to be wrong. Perhaps you mean something different by “a confessional people” than what comes to my mind in the Lutheran circles I’ve become familiar with in recent years.

    rr

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26. I suspect some Catholics and others are not grasping how confessional statements are viewed in the Baptist context. For Baptists, the local church is supreme, which usually means majority vote of the members. Hence, confessions are not authoritative unless a local congregation wants them to be so. Even then they are widely ignored or forgotten.

    The result of this is wide variation in Baptist belief and practice. That being the case, it is probably impossible to answer the original question of this thread. Some Baptists believe OSAS, some do not, and they will define these terms in many different ways.

    iMonk sounds like he wants to talk about ways to reverse this situation and recover a more confessional Baptist faith.

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27. Well Rob, this quote from John Wesley pretty well sums up what I thought of Perseverance of the Saints when I was a Protestant :

    “The sum of all is this: If the Scriptures are true, those who are holy or righteous in the judgment of God himself; those who are endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience; those who are grafted into the good olive-tree, the spiritual, invisible Church; those who are branches of the spiritual, invisible Church; those who are branches of the true vine, of whom Christ says, “I am the vine, ye are the branches;” those who so effectually know Christ as by that knowledge to have escaped the pollutions of the world; those who see the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, and who have been made partakers of the Holy Ghost, of the witness and of the fruits of the Spirit; those who live by faith in the Son of God; those who are sanctified by the blood of the covenant, MAY NEVERTHELESS SO FALL FROM GOD AS TO PERISH EVERLASTINGLY.

    Therefore let him that standeth take heed lest he fall.”

    In the long list Paul gives of what cannot keep us from the love of God, we ourselves are not mentioned.

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28. All that “Once Saved, Always Saved” means is this very simple fact.
    If you belong to God no one or no thing or no action can take you away. Simple. Period.
    Who knows if the aisle walk or the Christian camp confession were real? God does.
    No one is or should be trying to excuse bad behaviour.
    Is your pornography addiction worse than your neighbor’s lust?
    Is your greed and avarice in the name of capitalism worse or better than stealing?
    Why is this a hard question?
    I was taught in the SBC and in bible churches usually associated with Dallas Theological that if we are truly saved then nothing and no one can change that fact.
    It is this denial of that very simple and easy to see truth of scripture that keeps me out of the RCC.
    Well that and all the Mary stuff.

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29. Michael,

    “Once saved always saved” seems like a question that people more often ask for the sake of people they know, rather than themselves.

    For example, “My brother|sister|friend made a confession when they were young and now they are doing sin X|Y|Z. Are they still saved?”.

    Which seems like the wrong kind of question really… Let’s assume they are still saved, so then what? Do we breathe a sigh of relief and watch them carry on in that sin? Of course not; at least not if we really love them. The instruction from scripture is to encourage each other to good works, and to confront sin in our fellow believers.

    Scripture, of course, consistently presents a picture of endurance whereas the “once saved always saved” question seems like an attempt to excuse something, either in ourselves or others. It is closely tied to “cross the line or say the prayer and your saved” as others have noted above.

    Confessions – and I do think we need them – must cover this ground, and I think the three statements you quoted are consistent with the scriptural picture of endurance.

    Let me put plainly what I think: if you are ask me if “once saved, always saved” is true, I am going to be thinking “what is this person trying to excuse” (either for themselves or someone they know).

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30. No, Baptists are not monolithic, and I’m not trying to say that what I experienced is universally representative of Baptists, nor am I trying to put Baptists down. My post was mostly just a response to the question in the subject line, which in my fairly broad experience in several Baptist churches is, oftentimes, “yes”. To be honest, even though I’m sure these churches subscribed to confessions, I couldn’t tell you which ones. To say Baptists are confessional seems to be an over-generalization. There are Baptist confessions, and many hold to them, but they are not the core of what many groups of Baptists in the modern world believe.

    To be fair, many who use the phrase are possibly just using it as shorthand for a more nuanced theology of Perseverance of the Saints, which just isn’t as catchy as “once saved, always saved”.

    Even though I don’t hold to it and always thought it silly, “once saved, always saved” isn’t something that bothers me very much. I’m not writing to prove anything or score points. I’m just answering the question posed. And as you said, Baptists are not monolithic, so the question can be answered both ways and still be right. I’m certain if we looked hard enough, we could find churches who called themselves Baptist that believe practically anything, short of perhaps paleobaptism.

    All this is a long way of saying I don’t really know what the point is. Do some, indeed many, Baptists believe in “Once saved, always saved”? Certainly. Do many Baptists also oppose this as over-simplistic and contrary to Baptist confessions? Without a doubt.

    So I re-phrase my answer to the original question as a “definite maybe”.

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31. OK. One of you guys want to tell me what’s the point?

    I’m trying to be constructive and I really don’t know what you are wanting to accomplish. I’m just hearing you take the phrase “Baptist” and use it like Baptists are as monolithic as Catholics.

    I hate to tell you that everything you heard in your youth isn’t what all Baptists believe.

    Discussion here is getting tenuous.

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32. > Baptists do NOT believe in OSAS as it is
    > typically formulated

    But they do believe that once you’re saved, you’re always saved. And re: the “typical formulation,” I think most of the people who sound like they’re saying, “One prayer and you’re good no matter what!” _mean_ “one prayer motivated by genuine faith.” Because if you prayed in repentant faith, no one could ever say, “He was never really saved.” Someone like that could never _really_ reject Christ, because the only ones who reject Christ are the ones who were never really saved in the first place, i.e. the people who didn’t understand, or didn’t mean it. And thus the “no matter what!” part can refer only to backsliding, not actual loss of faith.

    Hence the line I heard often enough in my youth, “If you prayed that prayer, AND YOU REALLY MEANT IT….”

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33. Well my Roman Catholic brothers constantly speak up when someone says things like Mexican Catholics worship Mary more than Jesus. As they should.

    I’ve tried to present the confessional version, not the popular version. Anecdotal evidence is fine, but it doesn’t erase the BFM or other confessions. The sad state of theology in the pulpit and the pew is a problem we all face.

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34. In all the various Baptist churches I attended over the years, “Once saved, always saved” was what was being taught. That might not be in line with Baptist confessions, but the confessions never seemed to matter on the ground. I’ve sat through sermons where pastors expounded on “Once saved, always saved” being true Christian doctrine. Baptists in California might be a bit more lackadaisical in their beliefs than down South, but there is no doubt that “Once saved, always saved” is what I learned from my educated Baptist ministers.

    Once, a friend went apostate after discovering the wonders of sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll. The pastors wife led the youth Sunday school, and she insisted that “Once saved, always saved” would keep our friend covered through her escapades. I always felt that rang hallow, but that was what we were being taught.

    I don’t feel it is somehow misleading to say that “Baptists believe in ‘Once saved, always saved'”, anymore than it is misleading to say “Mormons believe in ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.'” That statement has as much status in official LDS teaching as “Once saved, always saved” has in Baptist confessions, but that doesn’t make it any less part of what Mormons believe. It’s not a matter of what Baptist confessions teach, it’s what Baptist ministers tell their congregations.

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35. As I’ve tried to point out, Baptists are a confessional people, no matter how independent they are or how eclectic they are in the confessions they use or how they use them. If a Baptist church wants to be recognized by other Baptist churches, they are going to have to have a confession of faith somewhere as some kind of community expression.

    In that understanding and practice, Baptists do NOT believe in OSAS as it is typically formulated. LOTS OF BAPTISTS DO, but that’s on the same level that Baptists are against dancing.

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36. I didn’t say Baptists were wrong. I said they believe “once saved, always saved.”

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37. **sigh**

    A post like this is an effort to get Baptists to join in some self-reflection. I’m happy to have the Lutherans and the Roman Catholics along, but I question whether you have anything to contribute to the conversation other than “Baptists are pretty much wrong about everything.”

    For example, my RC friends would find no real significance in a person having ANY experience where they “trusted Christ for the first time.” Baptism is efficacious completely apart from faith, and it’s baptism in the RC that removes original sin. For the Baptist, a person who is trusting in Christ as savior and substitute possesses all the promises of God in Christ, and therefore assurance will speak of “being saved” as a present fact. That is nonsense to the non-Baptist.

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38. Anyone who explains apostasy from Christ by saying, “He was never really saved in the first place” demonstrates by doing so that he believes in “Once saved, always saved.” If he didn’t, he would see no need for this post-hoc rationale.

    The difference between Baptists who think a one-time trip to the altar gets you into heaven no matter what happens afterwards, and Baptists who decry that opinion as a shallow misconception, isn’t that that the first group holds to OSAS and the second group doesn’t. It’s that the second group applies the explanation “He was never really saved in the first place” to apostate aisle-walkers, and the first group doesn’t.

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39. iMonk,
    Thanks for the post. I am coming to the party a little late, because I have been a medical mystery for the last two weeks. As a lifelong SBC guy, I can relate. I too think that all I ever heard in church growing up was once saved, always saved with the caveat about those who weren’t really saved but pretended to be. In answer to your last questions I would say that baptists are still hung up on the “sinner’s prayer” method of evangelism a bit much. Currently our state convention is running an evangelism booth at the Sturgis Bike Rally. They are giving away chances to win a Harley to anyone who will give them three minutes to share a testimony with them. They see great results during this week (over 700 people have prayed for salvation in each of the first two years), and there is a great deal invested in trying to follow up on these people to plug them into churches and such. The problem is that many of these still become part of that giant group of people that say a prayer one day and can’t be found a year later. Are we guilty of giving people a false sense of security and an incomplete Gospel?

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40. Most Baptists who aren’t theologically aware of their confessions- which is a majority. but growing smaller thankfully- engage this issue on three levels:

    1) Methodology as theology: Is a person who DOES SOMETHING (like walk an aisle) a Christian?

    2) Church discipline: Is there a basis for removing a baptized person from the church roll because they abandoned all interest in the church? IF they are “once saved, always saved” wouldn’t that be wrong?

    3) What sin or behavior indicates a person wasn’t a Christian after all.

    I think a more confessional/theological approach, combined with a healthy view of church membership and church discipline, makes this discussion more understandable and manageable.

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41. I should have mentioned in my earlier post that growing up I didn’t hear terms like “justification,” “sanctification,” “predestination” and so on. Honestly, I had never heard the term “justification” until I was in college. And that was in a history course on the Reformation, not in church! So it wasn’t just that all I had heard was “once saved always saved” instead of “the perseverance of the saints.” In my experience, it was that many SBC churches simply don’t use correct theological terminology and employ words or phrases from the language of revivalism that basically mean the same thing.
    The more I think about it, the more this really is a terminology/language issue with some of the problematic assumptions of Arminian revivalism mixed in.

    rr

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42. Yeah, growing up in an SBC youth group I heard my pastor say once: “You can get saved, live like the devil the rest of your life, and still go to heaven.”

    Michael, would I be right in thinking that’s what you’re addressing here? The “man on the street” version of assurance, over against the actual creedal statements on assurance/perseverance, etc?

    On another note, banker I totally agree with Michael-preach the gospel to your kids.
    I spent way too much time trying really hard to FEEL saved, as that was the only way to really “know”. As you said “Am I believing enough? Did I mean it enough?” I felt saved mostly when I had done good things or avoided bad things, or cried at camp on the last day, etc…I became the most tortured person I knew.(This is probably why I embraced Reformed theology so much-the idea that salvation was something God did, not me, was, um, nice.) Hold the sufficiency of Jesus up for them. I’m praying for you to have wisdom as you teach them.

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43. “PatrickW
    These confessions, as explained by Michael, seem to be teaching a sort of three-step process:

    1) Initial conversion and repentance
    2) Public profession of faith, symbolized by Baptism.
    3) Ongoing perseverance, demonstrated by a virtuous lifestyle and involvement with the church.

    Patrick W:

    Amen.

    This is why the biggest issue among Baptists is the recovery of the Biblical Gospel, a fuller view of the Holy Spirit, deeper Christian communities and, in my view, a return to weekly communion as a central element in Christian assurance.”

    So these outward physical works are the sign of true faith and conversion?

    There are those that would say that because I read a certain book or listen to some music or consume this or that that I am fallen from the faith.

    Didn’t Paul chastise Peter (the supposed Rock of the Church) about these very issues?

    Baloney!

    I am saved AND sanctified in exactly the same way.

    Completely and totally by God’s grace through the Blood of Chris with the work of the Holy Spirit.

    All other outward signs are useless and without merit.

    I would also add that from my understanding of scripture is that my salvation and sanctification will show itself in good works.

    You, none of you, know what those good works are.

    I can assure you that Mother Theresa or Augustine or Francis or Bonhoeffer were surpassed by others whose names we will not know this side of eternity and possibly not after.

    The work, from beginning to end, is the work of God the Father and Christ and the Holy Spirit and any litmus test is completely and utterly without value.

    [Moderator edited]

    I am not usually this serious in these posts but ……but I don’t know. These are hot button issues with me a recovering evangelical.

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44. I’m Lutheran in my theology now, so I don’t believe in either “once saved always saved” or the “perseverance of the saints.” But I grew up in a big SBC church and devout Baptist family. I never even heard of Confessions growing up, much less old Baptist Confessions. But I did hear the term “once saved always saved” a fair amount. From my experience (and my wife who grew up Baptist in a church a few counties away had a similar experience), I’d say Baptists indeed do believe in “once saved always saved,” though I was always told that if after walking the aisle one went on to live a wicked life that one “hadn’t really truly been saved in the first place.”
    Perhaps the issue isn’t “once saved always saved” by the tendency of many Baptists to use more colloquial expressions such as “saved” or “once saved always saved” instead of theological terms such as “justification” and “perseverance of the saints.” I don’t think most Baptist believe that one will automatically end up in heaven if one says a prayer and walks the aisle. But Baptists are probably too prone to using shorthand expressions and colloquialisms for theological terms. This causes a lot of confusion.

    rr

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45. totally agree that there is significant difference between what baptists confess and people believe about them, in many areas.

    but also coming from a large amount of time in a southern baptist church growing up, i found that there were quite a few laypeople who did believe that a walk down the aisle = justification. so although baptist theologians would be a different story, i have found some folks to have a rather simplistic view of salvation.

    peter

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46. What it comes down to is while “Once Saved, Always Saved” is NOT in the Baptist Confessions/policy statements, a lot of Baptists have taken “Perseverance” to mean “Once Saved, Always Saved” and ran with it.

    All I ever heard was “once saved, always saved!” and got evangelized weekly with all the best tent-revival techniques pastors and youth workers could muster. — PoMo Puritan

    Including getting kicked in the nuts by the revival preacher? (“ANGELS! ANGELS! ANGELS! Sheeka-Boom-Bah! BAM!”)

    My all-time favorite was sunday school teachers latching onto the Left Behind hype and scaring kids into thinking that “Jesus was gonna come back soon so you better choose before it’s too late” — PoMo Puritan

    One of the commenters on Slacktivist’s LB analysis blog put it this way: “We weren’t raised to live our lives. We were raised entirely to pass God’s Litmus Test and be taken in The Rapture. That was it.”

    In my college days, I remember hearing of a “Child Evangelist” (eight-year-old in a white suit preaching turn-or-burn every night to packed tents) whose tag line was “CHRIST IS COMING SOON! ALL THE PROPHECIES BEFORE THE RAPTURE HAVE BEEN FULFILLED! WE MIGHT NOT HAVE A 1978! OR EVEN A 1977!” It is now 2008. ‘Nuff said.

    And have you ever noticed “Being Left Behind” has entered the language as a synonym for Hell & Damnation?

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47. This is one of the issues that irked me as a child and teenager growing up in the SBC. I am now presbyterian and after studying the Westminster Confession the surface similarities between “once saved, always saved” and the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance are apparent, but its also obvious that they are built on very different assumptions of election. I often tell my old baptist friends that we might ultimately both believe in “eternal security” of the believer but I arrive at that conclusion on a totally different tour bus.

    This is usually enough to satisfy most OSAS’ers. As long as you believe a believer can’t fall away then they are satisfied and don’t wish to get caught up in specifics, you know… like actual theology and not dogma.

    I laugh when I hear people say things like “not all baptists are calvinists”, because growing up I doubt I ever met a single calvinist in the SBC, thats for sure. I never heard about election, regeneration, or persaverence (which implies sanctification as evidence of regeneration). NOPE. All I ever heard was “once saved, always saved!” and got evangelized weekly with all the best tent-revival techniques pastors and youth workers could muster. My all-time favorite was sunday school teachers latching onto the Left Behind hype and scaring kids into thinking that “Jesus was gonna come back soon so you better choose before it’s too late”

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48. Just to clarify my earlier comments after re-reading the posts and comments several times. Many Baptists I know do not believe in either “Once Saved, Always Saved” or “Perseverance of the Saints”.

    That being said, it would make for an interesting discussion another time as to what are the essential defining characteristics of a Baptist.

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49. Bob,

    I don’t want to compare SBC resumes, but I’ll wager I have the advantage 🙂

    Are you telling me that 90% of the SBCers you know would NOT say a person who walks an aisle at an invitation is saved?

    C’mon.

    MS

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50. Michael,

    The Baptists I know that believe once saved, always saved believe that ANY profession of faith, Baptism, praying the prayer, “asking Jesus into your heart,” etc. = salvation.

    Maybe this is where alot of the confusion in some of the comments is coming from. I’m sure your experience with the SBC is real and valid but, to tell you the truth, I have been around the SRC for decades and my experience is completely the opposite. Some 80-90 per cent of the SBCers I know say “once saved, always saved.” And only a small handful of them would explain it by saying “ANY profession of faith … = salvation.” When you ask them to expalin it, most of them sound alot like the statements you quoted in your post.

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51. Temporal judgments = natural consequences + sovereignty of God + his purpose in sanctification.

    Always remember that temporal judgments are “tempered” with mercy upon mercy. And remember that you don’t know what is a temporal judgment and what is simply an event with consequences.

    I use drugs and lose my job= temporal judgment.

    I use drugs and there’s a tsunami is not a temporal judgment.

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52. Patrick W:

    Amen.

    This is why the biggest issue among Baptists is the recovery of the Biblical Gospel, a fuller view of the Holy Spirit, deeper Christian communities and, in my view, a return to weekly communion as a central element in Christian assurance.

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53. These confessions, as explained by Michael, seem to be teaching a sort of three-step process:

    1) Initial conversion and repentance
    2) Public profession of faith, symbolized by Baptism.
    3) Ongoing perseverance, demonstrated by a virtuous lifestyle and involvement with the church.

    Taken together, these three things are evidence that an individual is saved. Someone correct me if I am misunderstanding this.

    The problem, as banker says above, is a lack of assurance. How do I know my repentance was “sincere?” Am I “persevering” hard enough? I can sin sometimes but not too much? Where is the line that tells me I was never really saved?

    This ambiguity may explain why some Baptists are prone toward legalism about drinking, dancing, etc. They don’t know how far they can go so they (quite naturally) try to stay as far into safe territory as they can get. Sometimes they overdo it and see sin where none really exists.

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54. Banker:

    Please hear what I am going to say with love and respect.

    To quote you:
    
    >So my question (Michael) is how do you approach this issue of fear that your commitment as a child or teen wasn’t real enough, or that they still sin so maybe they aren’t being regenerated (read persevering)?
    
    When I read this, I want to say Whatever teaching has produced these questions and wherever you are, go somewhere where the Gospel is being preached.

    These are questions generated by a serious deficiency in understanding the work of Christ for us.

    Our “commitment” does nothing. All we can do is extend the empty hand of faith to receive the perfect work of Christ. Anyone who has put the focus on their own commitment is not embracing the Gospel, but is turning faith into a work. “Have I believed enough? Am I committed enough?” Churches that promote those questions will drive you to despair.

    The same with repentance. We have never repented “enough.” Our confidence must be completely in the substitutionary work of Christ for us, and not in the sufficiency of our response to it.

    I know that many churches do teach this, and promote a culture of walking the aisle over and over, rebaptism, constant search for experience, etc. The reason I promote Luther’s gospel on this site is to get the Gospel right: It is ALL outside of you in the matter of salvation. Discipleship is your response, but we aren’t saved by discipleship, commitment or repentance. We are saved by grace, through faith, by Christ.

    Buy some books by Jerry Bridges (The Gospel for Real Life) or Michael Horton (Putting the Amazing Back Into Grace) or C.J. Mahaney (The Cross Centered Life) and get the Gospel cleared up for those kids. Keep them away from anything that causes them to put the focus on themselves. Tell them that our belief and repentance are entirely imperfect, but Christ is perfect in his work for us.

    I’ve written on the subject of assurance here. Be sure and follow the first two links as well.

    God bless you in your ministry.

    MS

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55. To me it seems like a very similar situation to the Roman Catholic “Extra ecclesiam nulla salus”.

    Catholics are (today) happy to include among the saved people who are not formally members of their church by saying, “somehow they are still part of the Church, whether they know it or not.”

    Advocates of “Once saved, always saved” who don’t want to be accused of easy believism will respond to someone’s evident apostasy by saying, “Well he was never saved, however convincing his performance was.”

    Same strategy for preserving a doctrinal assertion which is frequently belied by what our eyes and other senses tell us.

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56. I’m a first year youth pastor and I’m leading study on the Four Soils parable in an hour from now.
    I find this an especially disturbing thing for students to think about (not that we should avoid it in any way) because they all know fellow students who were visibly and for all intensive purposes authentically seeking God in high school and then they went off to college and walked away from their faith.
    The idea that you can lose your salvation brings up the question (especially in the minds of youth) “What if I’m not saved because my repentance wasn’t really enough, cause sometimes I don’t try very hard not to sin.?”
    Or in the case of the never-really-meant-it conversions “What if I didn’t mean it enough when I asked Jesus into my heart? What if I’m not believing hard enough right now? Maybe I’m not saved?”

    So my question (Michael) is how do you approach this issue of fear that your commitment as a child or teen wasn’t real enough, or that they still sin so maybe they aren’t being regenerated (read persevering)?

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57. >”…and bring temporal judgments upon themselves,…”

    Michael, out of curiosity, what are “temporal judgements” as mentioned in the 1689 Second London Confession of Faith and the Baptist Faith and Message 2000?

    How do temporal judgements differ from eternal judgements?

    What is the scriptural support for temporal judgements?

    God bless…

    +Timothy

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58. I, too, thought the confessions you cite sound a lot like “once saved, always saved.” From the subsequent discussion, I *think* what I’m getting is that the problem is not so much that “once saved, always saved” itself is wrong (or not in line with Baptist confessions), but that many Baptists bring to that saying a wrong (or not in line with Baptist confessions) idea of what’s involved in the “once saved” part of it. Is that about right?

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59. A clarification– not everyone who believes in OSAS would hold to the extreme antinomianism which I described above. Many OSAS’ers would hold to something much closer to Perserverance. The wording of OSAS, though, I fear, tends to lead much more easily to antinomianism than does the wording of Perseverance of the Saints.

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60. There is a huge difference between “Once Saved, Always Saved” and “Perseverance of the Saints.” OSAS (as believed by at least some professing Christians) basically means that one can pray to “accept Christ,” live like the devil for decades, and still be with God in eternity. By contrast, POTS states that those who are true Christian will persevere, to the end, by God’s power, and that this perseverance will show itself in a love for God and obedience to Him. Not a perfect love, and not a perfect obedience. We are still sinners. Love and obedience must be there, though, to some degree, as the “persevering” evidence that one is indeed a saint. This is my understanding of POTS– if I am wrong, I hope that someone will correct me.

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61. If you are saved you are saved.
    If you are not saved you are not.
    Very simple.
    God knows.
    You know by the Holy Spirit.

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62. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

    “For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
    we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

    37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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63. >If a Baptist church has a confession, it will almost always be one of these three.

    As I said above, congregations adopt statements of faith as they choose (or not.) Other congregations and associations then decide to recognize that congregation based on whether they are “of like faith and order.” The Baptist confessions I cited don’t speak for all Baptists, but they are the confessions chosen by most Southern Baptists.

    Shreiner and Canaday, in The Race Yet Before Us, distinguish between the various views, and do a good job distinguishing between the view you describe- which is commonly believed- and a more nuanced view that gives all the warnings in scripture full force. (You would find this among more Calvinistic Baptists, such as Piper.)

    Is there a significant difference between “They were never saved” and “True faith perseveres to the end?” Pastorally in the SBC, yes. To an astute theologian like yourself, probably not. But on the ground in a Baptist church, it’s a major shift BECAUSE “once saved always saved” is actually, among Baptists, a discussion of how much assurance should be assumed based on a PROFESSION of FAITH only, so it’s really about whether to say that those who walked an aisle are actually saved. More reformed Baptists are rejecting this for a more credible profession of faith and a higher view of membership, discipline and the ordinances.

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64. Growing up, I was taught the phrase “once saved, always saved.” When the subject of people who fell away came up, the answer was, “They were never really saved.” How is that any different than “perseverance of the saints”? The wording is a little different, but the thoughts are identical. The various Baptist confessions say that once a person is “saved,” he will never fall away from that state. One could even say that he will “always” be saved. They just have the caveat that the truly saved persevere in faith and fellowship and so on.

    Besides, I thought you had made the point some time earlier that Baptists aren’t bound to any confession.

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65. Salvation comes when a person places his faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. NOT at the time of profession of that faith, which would be a public presentation at a church or in baptism. But if Baptists followed their confessions, they wouldn’t actually recognize that faith until there was a credible profession of faith.

    HOWEVER- Present trust and profession are not the ONLY marks of a true believer. PERSEVERANCE is the distinguishing mark of true faith. Perseverance takes the form of discipleship and repentance, as well as faithful obedience (all imperfect in this life and all the work of the Spirit.)

    So Baptists, if they follow their confessions, only speak of an assurance of salvation to those whose lives give a credible profession, which is primarily Baptism and continuing fellowship in a local congregation.

    Again, if Baptists followed their confessions, they would practice church discipline, which CLEARLY can’t be squared with extreme versions of “once saved, always saved.”

    Also, be aware that saying “I’m Saved!” or “Your Saved!” is quite common in Baptist life apart from actual confessional standards of assurance.

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66. In the interest of having good dialogue with the Baptist brethren, I want to make sure I understand this correctly. Here’s what I am getting; someone please tell me if I have it wrong.

    Baptist belief, as shown in these confessions, is that salvation comes when a person makes a profession of faith, repents of his sins and asks Jesus into their heart. I think this is also called being “born again.” Thereafter, salvation cannot be lost, even if the person falls back into sin.

    However, the possibility remains that this first profession of faith was “false” or not sincere. In that case the person was never really saved in the first place.

    Do I have this right? If so, what I still don’t get is how you know when a person’s first profession was false. Presumably it takes more than just continued sin; I’ve never heard any Baptists claim to be sinless after their salvation experience. So how can you tell?

    Thanks for the clarification.

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67. I said the confessions don’t use that language. They speak of perseverance and election, but they all leave room for false professions. The Baptists I know that believe once saved, always saved believe that ANY profession of faith, Baptism, praying the prayer, “asking Jesus into your heart,” etc. = salvation.

    The Confessions are clear that true believers persevere to the end. If a baptized Baptist becomes an atheist, he’s not saved and the confessions never assumed that he was.

    If you aren’t SBC, you don’t know this issue in the same way we do.

    I guess if Abraham lamented the effect of Sodom on Lot, it was judgmental.

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68. I must be missing something here. When the 2000 statement says “All true believers endure to the end,” it sounds to me like “Once saved, always saved.” What is it about these statements that says otherwise?

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69. I don’t know — your quotes sound like “once saved, always saved” to my Campbellite ears. Rejecting “original sin/total depravity” as I do, it seems to me that one truly converted to the Lordship of Jesus can lose that conversion WITHOUT subsequent repentance as the creeds state.

    Dan

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70. Eternal security is one of the tenants of Calvinism. Not all Baptists are necessarily Calvinist. For example the North American Baptist Conference has within its members both those with Calvinistic leanings and those with Arminian leanings and as such leaves the question of eternal security open in its Statement of Faith.

    For me personally the issue was a significant watershed in my spiritual journey. I remember over twenty years ago being at a Bible study studying through 1st and 2nd Peter. That night the passage under question was 2 Peter 2.

    20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

    The leader said, “This passage obviously doesn’t mean what it seems to mean.” I said to myself at the time. “How can you say that? You are letting your interpretation of scripture be guided by your theology instead of letting your theology be guided by scripture. Are there other verses which see to something similar?” When I started looking they were not too hard to find.

    One of the first ones that I found was Hebrews 6:4-8

    4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

    7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

    Escaped, enlightened, tasted, and shared. This is not describing people who were never Christians in the first place.

    So to answer the question. No, not all Baptists believe in once saved, always saved.

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71. Michael,

    In the first place: By what Biblical Authority does any mere mortal man proclaim with absolute certainty that someone is actually saved? The very most we may say is that they have made a profession of faith and that over time we find good evidence of their sanctification… But to proclaim they are saved? Never!

    This whole “Modern Invention” of telling someone that they are now “saved” because they have performed the religious ceremony that we (insert any denomination) have prescribed is pure presumption and bordering on heresy.

    “Once Saved, Always Saved?” softly whispers the Devil… now go back to sleep my child.

    Grace Always,

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72. I too have heard this a lot as I have grown up and ministered to a lot of SBC churches….why do you think this is such a common catchphrase in Baptist circles? That and “accept Jesus into your heart”, which make me so irritated….I’d love to hear more stories on over done cliches….”catchphrases” if you will…..

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73. This is an important clarification. Thank you.

    I get accused of teaching “once saved, always saved” since I’m Baptist, and I will send them to this post from now on.

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