Election Day 2008 Whine and Sheesh Party

108 thoughts on “Election Day 2008 Whine and Sheesh Party”

1. I just can’t wait for it to be over so I can stop chewing my mental fingernails. I know who I support for President, but I’m already praying “God help us all” either way. Oh well. Come Wednesday, Christians should continue doing what our brothers and sisters are doing all over the world. Praying, hoping in Jesus, believing, and living our lives the way we know Christ wants us to–no matter the culture we live in. We enjoy a lot of freedoms many Christians do not, simply by living in this country. In order to avoid getting depressed tomorrow, I shall just remember that point. And look to Jesus.

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2. I’m with you. I don’t know if all the Obamaration says more about him or more about us, but it gives me the willies either way. Even if I were going to vote for him, it would really bother me.

   A LiveJournal headline a couple weeks ago said it all:

   “Senator Obama: Your fanboys scare me.”

   By the way, I predict that this thread will not die until 2012.

   Or until it’s banned under some Federal Hate Speech Act of 2009.

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3. One more thing, if you don’t mind.

   Probably the most important statement in Michael’s post, and the one we discussed least was his last sentence:

   I’ll make a choice, but I’ll be walking home praying for God to have mercy on the United States.

   Actually, not alot to discuss. Just, Amen.

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4. Michael Dee Smith wrote,

   It is only that I am discomforted by the possibility of our willingness to cede to him something that looks too much like adoration and a mindless desire to be led to where we know not. A further echo of the German spectacles of the 1930’s is that Obama also thinks in grand terms, and has shown a brilliant sense for staging grand spectacles of his own.

   I’m with you. I don’t know if all the Obamaration says more about him or more about us, but it gives me the willies either way. Even if I were going to vote for him, it would really bother me.

   By the way, I predict that this thread will not die until 2012.

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5. More than once I have vigorously scolded fellow Christians for making ignorant and uncompassionate pronouncements against one or the other (mostly one and not the other) of our presidential candidates in this overly drawn out political season.

   My own political views have gone through dramatic changes over the last few years. I came to feel evangelicals had been suckered by the Republicans from the 80’s onward, and that we had lost our witness as a result of our naiveté and idolatry. Desiring to be rid of the power I as a Christian had ceded to a political party, and wishing to see our country turn a page from one of its darker episodes, I enthusiastically voted for Obama in the primaries. I expected I would be voting for him to be President as well. As I’d not cast a vote for a Democratic presidential candidate since Carter’s first bid, this was not an insignificant action on my part.

   I just returned from Tampa with my wife who was attending a convention in Tampa. I had the opportunity to visit the Florida Holocaust Museum while there. Interested in all things Jewish, I seldom miss a chance to gain greater understanding of the life and history of the Jewish people. As I was looking at a poster sized photo of an early, enthusiastic, gathering of German citizens standing and cheering their recently elected leader, a chill ran down my back. It’s difficult to voice this, as I don’t wish it to sound as radical as I fear it will. But this photo made me think of the enormous crowds that gather at seemingly all of Senator Obama’s speaking events. While we were in Tampa, he spoke in our city of Springfield, Missouri, a heavily conservative area of about 200,000 people, and attracted 35,000 people. That is an astounding feat.

   I do not suggest this man is Hitler, or that he is evil. It is only that I am discomforted by the possibility of our willingness to cede to him something that looks too much like adoration and a mindless desire to be led to where we know not. A further echo of the German spectacles of the 1930’s is that Obama also thinks in grand terms, and has shown a brilliant sense for staging grand spectacles of his own.

   Again, I am not suggesting this man should be considered a modern manifestation of Hitler. I do however recognize that men and women bearing the weight of social, economic and wartime stresses, have in the past, willingly granted hope and powers to a man that should only be reserved for God. Further, even good men who are given such power rarely remain only good.

   I don’t know where this leaves me. Possibly with those that argue for a Christian stand against voting altogether. I’m not there just yet, but not that far either.

   Michael Dee Smith

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6. Checking some buds’ friends lists on LiveJournal this morning. All the political crap summarized in two words: RON PAUL! RON PAUL! RON PAUL!

   How did everybody become a Ron Paulista overnight? Have we got Paul-Pod People hatching all over the net? Did Ron Paul just get a celebrity endorsement from Ayn Rand and John Galt?

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7. Ryan Cordle
   “I wasn’t really making the point about whether or not one vote mathematically matters.”

   So please tell us what was your point? I been trying to think about this for over a day now and don’t understand. Or if I do I utterly disagree with your position.

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8. Here in Australia we have compulsory voting and it’s a great idea. Looking on from across the Pacific I can’t understand why people would be considering not voting. I see that you don’t have great choices, but hey, the rest of the world would love to have a say in who will be your President because your decision (or lack of it) affects us all.
   So please go and vote and vote well! We’re depending on you!
   Also, imonk, when you said I see charisma, intellect, opportunism, a lack of candor and a vast ocean of manipulative rhetoric. about Obama, I heard Clinton. Eesh.

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9. I’m not happy with either of the two main candidates, however, McCain gets my vote.

   Lets be up front:
   Think about this: what has Obama ever done? NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. PERIOD. He’s like a sophmore who’s going to change the world, but hasn’t bothered to clean out the closet in his room. Obama rarely even cast votes while serving in the senate. He’s done NOTHING!

   My son, who used to live on the street (a result of some very bad choices) said, “Obama reminds me of some of the people I used to run into. Hustlers. He’s a hustler.” I agree. Looks like the American people have been hustled.

   What Republican politician could get away with making statements like, “We’ve got a righteous wind to our backs.” The mainstream media would go balistic, but Obama not only gets a pass but is upheld as some kind of deliverer.

   As far as McCain’s pick of Palin showing poor judgment, what about 20 years of sitting under a racist preacher? Is that good judgment? I can only imagine the fallout had McCain sat under the preaching of a KKK minister.

   What about his associations? Good judgment? Don’t we teach our children not to hang around certain people because of their negative influence? But we’re not to apply this to Obama?
   Give.Me.A.Break.

   He’s going to spread the wealth? First, it’s not his to spread. If he wants to spread wealth he ought to start with Joe Biden who, according to his tax statements, makes almost three times that of Sarah Palin, but gives much less to charitable causes than she does.

   If the election were American Idol I’d vote for Obama in a heart beat. But we’re about to elect a man as leader of the free world. What are we thinking? McCain ain’t that hot, but he’s got more gravitas in his little toe that Obama does in his whole body! May God have mercy on us!

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10. What are the most important criteria or standards we should employ in selecting candidates? I believe one is how candidates stand [how they act, not just what they say] in terms of tolerance/ intolerance. Intolerance should be shunned and resisted in religion and politics both. In this election, the borders between church and state, spirituality and rationality, have become blurred. There is a reason why America, a profoundly religious nation since its inception, established a division between church and state. Perhaps it is similar to the reason why Jesus, the ultimate transformer, acted through the power of faith instead of politics in his own time. Government is a uniquely human endeavor; it is how people create their interdependent society and give shape to their present hopes and future dreams. A belief that a person, religious group, party or nation can invoke God on their behalf [implying that their opponents are less godly or less worthy] is not only wrong but dangerous, because there is no arguing about matters of faith. If religion is mixed with politics, elections become contests of faith, not rational discourse where people voice their worldly interests and preferences. Spiritualism and faith, and intellect and rationality, are fundamental components of the human makeup and condition, and exist side by side. Isn’t it each person’s responsibility to appreciate the appropriate zones of religious and political beliefs and actions, and to act accordingly? To mix religion and politics compromises them both.

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11. I’m going to just zero in on one point, and iMonk used the phrase twice: manipulative rhetoric.

    Barack Obama is saying things that well-educated people know enough to doubt, but his campaign knows their target market, and they say them anyway. It’s insulting to take advantage of people in this way, and unfortunately his followers don’t realize it. He is that good.

    A couple of examples:

    Barack Obama calls out Exxon Mobil and ridicules them at one of his speeches for the profits they earned last year. He knows that people love to hate rich, big businesses, especially oil, and knows that will strengthen his position as the friend of the working man, and that he will get applause and seem closer to his audience by taking this position. He is also probably well aware that tax revenues on a gallon of gas are roughly 6 times the profit. He stands before men and sells them a line of goods that does not in any way present the complete picture. And he does it for power. His main objective is to win the race, not to tell the truth, IMO.

    He talks about giving a tax break to the middle class, and about how we don’t need 4 more years of the same, and how he will provide tax relief… meanwhile the tax rebates Bush gave out will be null going forward. So you remove the rebates (I got about a $1,200 rebate and I’m SO not rich) and that’s not called a tax increase, and then you “reduce” taxes by, say, $1,200, and you can now call that a tax break. That’s an even wash.

    Snake oil is applied “metaphorically to any product with exaggerated marketing but questionable or unverifiable quality.” I don’t want to listen to someone who plays games with words, and is smart enough to know exactly what he’s doing. It takes a smart person (and/or a gifted orator) to be cunning. We’ve experienced that style of politics under Bill Clinton, and I believe Obama exhibits the same evasive language skills.

    “Actually, Pelosi’s constituents are being gouged by people like Pelosi — by government. While oil companies make about 13 cents on a gallon of gasoline, the federal government makes 18.4 cents (the federal tax) and California’s various governments make 40.2 cents (the nation’s third-highest gasoline tax). Pelosi’s San Francisco collects a local sales tax of 8.5 percent — higher than the state’s average for local sales taxes.”
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/16/AR2007051602429.html

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12. I wanted to see Romney get the nod. I’m not a McCain supporter, for many of the reasons you mention, IMonk. But I do like Sarah Palin. She is a fireball. The infamous interview was edited and crafted to make her look foolish, something I don’t believe for one minute she is. She doesn’t have the Washington DC polish of the more experienced, but I think that is what the country likes about her – she’s a breath of fresh air. And I think she is a quick study who will be surrounded and taught by a (hopefully)good cabinet of advisors.

    I often vote third party, but there is too much at stake and no third party candidate has any chance at all. I fear what American will become under an Obama presidency.

    As you stated, may God have mercy on us.

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13. Hi, Michael!

    My first post!
    I think it is dumb to say, as you said, “I am for a strong defense”. How strong is strong? Do you mean strong enough to prevent another country from conquering us? Then we are WAY stronger than we need to be. Strong enough to prevent another terrorist attack like 9/11? Our defense department can’t possibly be strong enough to prevent a terrorist attack. Remember the Oklahoma City bombing? In fact, the only way to truly prevent another 9/11 attack is to lock down the borders, keep everyone out, and become essentially a police state. Is that what you want?
    I just get aggravated when people say they want a strong national defense.
    By the way I voted for Obama. I prefer spreading the wealth rather than concentrating the wealth. I just read that the 5 largest Wall Street investment firms gave out $77 billion in bonuses in 1977. That money is gone into the pockets of the rich. There is no way to retrieve it. Now the taxes of ordinary citizens are bailing out these same firms (less Lehman Brothers, etc.) That’s the Republican way. I will choose the other way.

    Dennis Veith

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14. Anyone who thinks Obama’s “plan” will allow them to sit around and let the government take care of them has obviously not actually listened to what Obama’s message is. His plan is to ease the tax burden on the middle class and WORKING poor, so that they can live a little better. That’s why it involves penalizing companies that export American jobs and gives tax breaks to companies that creates jobs. The plan is for people who want to to be able to better themselves, and to be able to earn a decent living. Whereas now I know someone with a masters degree who works at Panera Bread (not as a manager either) because it was the best job that he could get around here.

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15. KY boy (but not now)

    I wasn’t really making the point about whether or not one vote mathematically matters.

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16. Obama asks “Am I my brothers keeper?” From the way his brother lives in Kenya, I guess the answer is no.

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17. Ryan Cordle said:
    “Elections are just the circus to keep us all briefly entertained while our plutocratic Caesar does whatever it is Caesars do. I’m entertained, but still won’t vote, because ultimately I’m not sure it matters.”

    In 2000 Florida was decided by less than 1 vote in 20,000. Around here in our local elections where 100,000 votes might be cast on a high turnout, we’ve had several elections for city and county commisioners where one candidate who formed the majority block was elected with fewer than 200 votes. (Thank goodness we use paper to OCR so hand recounts are easy and quick.)

    Doesn’t take many “why bothers” to change things.

    As to the wasting a vote in lopsided areas, well, you don’t change elections 10% at a time, it takes 1 vote at a time to change things. Your vote now might start things in motion to elect someone better 10 years from now. Why not take the first step?

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18. How sad we are.

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19. I was a HS sophomore in 1954 when the SCOTUS ruled on Brown vs the board of education. At the time, I was studying the Constitution and could find NO authority for the Fed Gov to be involved in education. Since then I’ve discovered just how important Federal judges are to the lives of Joe the Plumber. This is my single issue when it comes to voting for presidents and senators — who will nominate/support a judge that values the Constitution above popular stands. We have to suffer four or eight years of an administration, but decades of Constitution-trashing Justices.

    Monday I cast the saddest vote of my 48 years of voting — for McCain, about whom I agree with your assessment.

    Sad in Reno

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20. Oh, one other thing I wanted to mention, not directly related to the Presidential election. I am in favor of having run off elections for the general election.

    In other words if you have Candidate A, B and C and candidate A gets 47%, candidate B gets 45% and candidate C gets 8% then there would be a run off a few weeks later between candidate A and B. This would allow people to vote for 3rd party candidates without fearing that it would help elect the person they really don’t want.

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21. Due to early voting I have already voted for John McCain, as well as Saxby Chambliss (incumbunt GOP senator from Georgia). Now I’m pretty certain that Obama will be the next President (a good reason to re-elect as many GOP Representatives and Senators as possible) but I did my part to try to insure that he is not.

    Here are the three main reasons I voted for McCain.

    1. Judges. While Republicans have not been perfect in appointing judges who correctly understand the constitution, Democrats have been pretty close to perfect in appointing those who do not. An Obama judicial appointment would in all likelihood be firmly in support of Roe vs. Wade. They would also probably be more likely to support “speech codes” that restrict free speech. I remember a case a few years ago in which the Boy Scouts were protected from the gay mafia by a narrow vote of 5-4. Judges are appointed for life, so this issue will live beyond the term of whichever candidate is elected.

    2. Guns. Yeah, I’m one of those who cling to my guns and religion as Obama put it. McCain is no purist on this issue, but Obama is far worse and he picked a running mate in Joe Biden who is worse than himself. Conversely of course, Sarah is better than John on the issue. As one example, Obama supports reinstituting the “assault” weapons ban and McCain opposes it. For the record, I put the word assault in quotes because I consider that to be Orwellian speak. Under that ban certain types of semi-automatic rifles were banned. If an attacker comes at a person with a knife and that person uses one of these semi-automatic weapons to stop the attacker, then in that case the knife was the assault weapon and the semi-automatic was the defense weapon. This is just one example of how certain politicians manipulate language to their advantage……go figure.

    3. Hate crimes. This is more Orwellian speak. A group of evangelicals were arrested in Pennsylvania for violating the hate crimes law of Pennsylvania. Their crime? Reading the bible and singing hymns at a homosexual rally. Fortunately the Pennsylvania Supreme Court declared the law to be in violation of Pennsylvania’s constitution (back to my first point on the importance of who appoints the Judges). There was another incident in New York where a Jewish young man was arrested for a hate crime. His action? He threw a Koran in the toilet. Obama wants more federal government involvement in prosecuting “hate” crimes and McCain is against it.

    Well, we are less than 100 hours from the election. So, there is my 2 cents worth on the matter.

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22. Brian said,

    Here’s the thing…I live in a Blue state that will be Blue once again. In other words, my vote really makes no difference if I choose between the two major candidates. That being the case, I feel like my vote for the Libertarian is best

    I understand completely. I have done the same thing myself in the past. For those of you who are living in the swing states, though, I would encourage you to not make the perfect the enemy of the good … or the not as bad as it could be … or something like that. Make a vote that might actually influence the outcome!

    And Ken Mahanes, great comment. I don’t agree with everything in it, but I think you really get to the heart(s) of the matter in this election. Wish McCain would ask you for some help with his speechifying.

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23. i early voted for mccain yesterday after work, fully knowing that obama would win anyway. i’m not crazy about obama, but i don’t think he’s the anti-christ, unlike seemingly half of the christians i meet who swear to me that he is.

    my attitude is a bit apathetic, despite being a young voter and this only being my 2nd time to vote in a presidential election. obama will win next tuesday. the sun will still come up wednesday morning, and i will still go to work. life will go on.

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24. I’m with you Michael. What an election. Left verse Leftist. What kind of choice is that?

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25. Sorry for this lengthy post (which probably means nobody will read it), but I have really struggled as have you regarding Tuesday. Here’s where I have come out. Not necessarily saying anyone else should, but maybe it will help one or two to come to some resolution of the dilemma.

    Here’s the conundrum I have faced regarding the upcoming presidential election. I would revel in voting for the first African American to become president. The election of Barack Obama would mean that we have made immense progress in achieving Dr. Martin Luther King’s dream of a color-blind society. Furthermore, George W. Bush has been a major disappointment. He and a complicit Congress have spent our country to near bankruptcy. Consequently, my visceral response to all of the current incumbents, both Bush and the Congress, is to “throw the rascals out.” Additionally, John McCain was not my preferred candidate for the Republican nomination.
    So, why have I chosen not to vote for Barack Obama, but for John McCain?
    For one, the change Obama promises is a broadened version of former president Lyndon Johnson’s “The Great Society,” which was a movement towards socialism. Under Johnson, the government created and massively funded programs intended to rid society of poverty, hunger and hopelessness. The problem with Johnson’s Great Society, and Obama’s “change,” is that government programs are administered by bureaucracies and bureaucracies are notorious for excessive spending with minimal results (inefficiency). They are also devoid of personal care and compassion (ineffectiveness). Private religious and charitable agencies are the most efficient and effective means of helping meet the needs of the impoverished and disenfranchised.
    Obama has often raised the question Cain asked of God: “Am I my brother’s keeper?” Socialism, which is the direction America will take under Obama and the Democrats, answers the question with a yes. But, what they mean is that government is my brother’s keeper
    Higher taxes to fund government programs will have unfortunate negative outcomes: businesses, in order to stay competitive, will pass on the tax increases to the consumer and individuals will have less money to give to private charities and religious agencies resulting in transferring more and more responsibility for helping the needy to “big brother” government.
    I lived in Appalachia during the height of The Great Society and saw the wasteful spending and unintended consequences. The massive development of government programs created an increasing sense of entitlement that led to a cycle of dependency upon government and a loss of personal initiative. The Great Society ended up hurting the very people it intended to help, a reminder that big government often creates more problems than it solves.
    Secondly, Obama’s use of the term economic justice is a euphemism for the seminal Marxist tenet of the redistribution of wealth. Wealth redistribution, a position Obama defended in a Chicago Public Radio interview in 2001 and reaffirmed in his recent comments to Joe the Plumber, appears fair because of its egalitarian intent. But taking from those who have rightfully earned their wages and giving to those who have not is economic injustice. Capitalism, even with its distasteful greediness, has produced greater freedom and opportunity for people than any other economic system. And, as a result, Americans are the most generous and philanthropic people on earth.
    Thirdly, I cannot support Obama because of his support for abortion. As an Illinois state senator, Obama voted “present” 130 times. In spite of his apparent inability to make decisions, he is inflexible in his support of abortion…with no restrictions. He voted repeatedly against the Induced Infant Liability Act that would have protected babies that survive abortions. Obama supported allowing a child born alive to die unattended.
    In 2002, while Obama was still an Illinois state senator a similar federal law, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, was passed with only 15 members of the U.S. House of Representatives opposing the bill. The Senate approved the bill unanimously on a voice vote.
    When questioned during the campaign about his votes against the measure in the Illinois state legislature, Obama stated that he opposed the bill because the wording of the state legislation did not match the wording of the federal bill and might, thereby, restrict a women’s right to an abortion.
    Obama’s statement is simply not true. Additional language was added to the Illinois bill by the committee chaired by Obama to make it comparable to the federal legislation. Yet, Obama still voted against the bill. Consequently, to say that Obama is pro-choice is an understatement. As a matter of conscience, I cannot support a candidate who supports infanticide.
    Robert George, McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence and Director of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions at Princeton University, recently published a careful examination of Obama’s abortion record and concludes that Obama is “not merely a pro-choice politician, but rather is the most extreme pro-abortion candidate to have ever run on a major party ticket.”
    On the other hand, over his long career, John McCain has consistently stood in support for the protection of the life of the unborn child.
    Fourthly, beyond the critical issue of life is Obama’s inexperience. Some attack Sarah Palin as unqualified to be vice president due to her inexperience but approve uncritically of Obama’s qualifications to be president. In my judgment, Obama’s inexperience and naiveté (example: his insistence early on in the campaign to meet with any head of state, such as President Mahmoud Ahmadinejadbi of Iran or Kim Jong Il of North Korea, with no predetermined conditions) would put the United States at risk at the most dangerous time in the history of our nation.
    Some are too young to remember Neville Chamberlain, former Prime Minister of Great Britain. Chamberlain, who in the face of the threat of rising Nazism made a deal with Hitler to cease Germany’s expansionist intentions. The headline in one of the London newspapers read: “Chamberlain Wins the Peace.” The curmudgeon, Sir Winston Churchill, opposed the appeasement position of Chamberlain. As history now shows, it is foolhardy to attempt to appease others whose ideology includes world domination and genocide based on race or religion.
    Radical terrorists today cannot be appeased. Militant Islamic ideologues are driven by a misguided quest for a radical form of fundamentalist Islamic world domination. They have committed acts of violence against any nation they view as godless. In such perilous times, I must put the national interest first and consider who is better prepared to lead the nation during the current war against terrorism, a war that Obama now acknowledges is real. John McCain is tested and proven; Barack Obama is not.
    In hindsight, I concede that Obama’s opposition to the preemptive war against Iraq was correct. This was one of George Bush’s most blatant policy blunders. Because the decision to enter Iraq was wrong, we must be certain that we exit Iraq right. I believe our troops are beginning to pull out of Iraq because of the effectiveness of the military surge that both Barack Obama and Joe Biden voted against and John McCain, at great political risk, favored.
    Finally, I am a fiscal and social conservative. Obama is a fiscal and social liberal. In fact, according to the National Journal, Obama’s voting record rates him as the most liberal senator in the U. S. Senate and, therefore, one of its most partisan members. Bi-partisanship to Obama means that he can work cooperatively with liberals in both parties.
    John McCain throughout his career has shown a willingness to work with people in all parties and of different persuasions to do what is best for our country, even at the expense of his own political aspirations. As much as I have tried to find reasons to vote for Obama, I have concluded, though he is the better rhetorician, he is the lesser qualified of the two major presidential candidates.
    Because of his policies, record and experience, I have chosen to vote for John McCain.

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26. DaveD,

    Hey, no offense meant. I’m not attacking your family credentials. I was just pointing out your first example was a clear misrepresentation of Obama’s plan. One that McCain has been playing on and is patently untrue.

    Peace.

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27. We will always have crap candidates until the the primary system is changed. It makes no sense that in a country of 300,000,000 people that Iowa and New Hampshire determine who is left for me in Illinois to vote for. And we will never see real change until we demand that he commission on debates includes 3rd party candidates. Who are they to say who is viable? I spoke to a customer in Ireland last month and he laughed that in a country our size, we get to choose from two people / parties. In Ireland where 6 million people live they have 4, 5, and sometimes 6 candidates.

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28. Brian, If ytou go 3rd party your vote just doesn’t count. You want to express your opinion, blog or write a letter to the editor. We are a 2 party system. Step up to the plate pick some issues you believe in and vote.

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29. Haven’t read all the comments, but did read your objection to voting Libertarian. I am going to vote for Barr, acknowledging that there are Libertarian positions I disagree with. Here’s the thing…I live in a Blue state that will be Blue once again. In other words, my vote really makes no difference if I choose between the two major candidates.

    That being the case, I feel like my vote for the Libertarian is best since what I really want to do is express my opinion that our government is broken as long as we are a two party government, not to mention that it’s too friggin’ big and the tax burden on us us WAY out of control.

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30. Elections are just the circus to keep us all briefly entertained while our plutocratic Caesar does whatever it is Caesars do. I’m entertained, but still won’t vote, because ultimately I’m not sure it matters.

    Call me cynical…

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31. You wanna stop abortion? Congress could a constitutional amendment. The statehouses could vote on it. Get it done within a year. Neither the President nor the Supreme Court could veto it. But what strategy do we usually discuss? “Let’s vote for a pro-life President who will pick pro-life justices for the Supreme Court.” — K.W.Leslie

    i.e. the National Right to Life approach. And the American Life League is the same, EXCEPT IN BOLDFACE ALL-CAPS!!!!!. Roe v Wade started something: Legislate by getting a Supreme Court that will force your way by decree.

    And all these Right-to-Life groups have gotten set in their ways that Only My Approach Is REALLY Pro-Life and Everybody Else is a Stooge of the Abortionists.

    American Life League: “If You Don’t Give Us Money To Elect A REPUBLICAN Who’ll Put Pro-Life Judges on the Supreme Court, GOD WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR EVERY BABY ABORTED! (Actually used on me when they telemarketed me during the Bork borking.)

    Operation Rescue: “If you don’t go to our Rescues and go to jail with us, You’re Not REALLY Pro-Life.”

    The entire House and a third of the Senate is up for re-election; it makes more sense to me to be concerned about them. — K.W.Leslie

    I’m in California. Thanks to carefully-drawn one-party districts, our incumbent re-election rate here is 100%. Period.

    If that isn’t grounds for mistrust, I don’t know what is. — Eric R

    It’s Daley Machine fast-tracking. Boss Daley (or his successor) wants a President in his pocket, and the machine swings into action.

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32. I early voted yesterday. For the first time in my life, I voted third party. I walked in seriously considering McCain as a very evil “lesser of two evils,” but at the moment of truth, I just couldn’t do it. Many people say that they actually vote AGAINST certain candidates. I consider my vote less a vote for the third party, which I know cannot win, but rather a vote AGAINST a corrupt two party system which has left us without options. Yeah, it was a dumb vote, but I can’t help feeling any way I voted would have been a dumb vote.

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33. Kyle,

    I agree with your overall point. I get sick of hearing politics at Bible Study or the “I can’t tell you who to vote for but…” round about ways of saying “Not Obama”. I LOVE me some politics…just not intertwined with my religion. Republican does NOT equal Christian and the Democrat Party platform isn’t even close.

    Your religion should always effect your politics. (It should influence how you vote, who you vote for as it should effect everything in your life.)Your politics should NEVER touch your religion.(Judging who is “righteous” or “God’s Choice” by the letter behind their name is dangerous.)

    DD

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34. Ky boy but notnow, I should have said:

    Cynthia, not George, is anti-Israel.

    Sorry I made you think I meant something else. Although you are still right.

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35. Apart from the uproar about this presidential race, I’m frustrated to the nth degree with the church’s speech and behavior through all of this. Politics are nasty and have always been, but I didn’t expect to see the church get in the middle of it and act so childish. Granted, I’m only 23 and just started paying attetion, but why are we so afraid about the outcome of this election? I’ve heard Obama bashed from the pulpit and sensational propaganda from “pro-lifers” that shocked me. My message is this: take a breath, shut up, quiet down, and think about what the Lord has promised.

    It’s true that America will one day be forgotten; however, the Kingdom of God will NEVER be shaken. That’s where my allegience lies. We forget that Jesus fulfilled his ministry within the Roman empire. He supported Caesar because he was the authority, not because of any “issues.” Paul did what he did under the reign of Nero. You don’t see him bashing Caesar and whining about losing his “conservative” values.

    I understand politics is a necessary evil in the world, but should the church act so worldy about it. On Nov. 5th my freedoms, values, rights, and power will not change one bit and NEVER will. Jesus Christ has set us free and nothing can change that.

    I just hope we aren’t forgetting it.

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36. I’d like to apologize for the “To Hell With Romans 13” link that was posted. I had removed moderation, but I’ll now turn it back on. My apologies.

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37. Who cares what Dr. Dobson says…….

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38. I grew up as an MK in a country where people maybe, maybe, got to vote once every ten years, between coups and wars and martial law and riots and unrest, etc. So when I hear fellow Americans whining about having so many imperfect choices in an election I really don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

    Try being a believer in a country where you have no say at all in how you are governed. Now that’s hard. At the same time, part of me thinks an experience like that might actually grow the church in real, deep, meaningful ways that are far beyond what any hoped-for government or policy would. Go figure.

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39. 1. I voted for Mitt Romney, even though by the time of my state’s primary he had already dropped out of the election. McCain had already secured the nomination, but Romney was still on the ballot. Being Mormon didn’t turn me off; I like his politics. (The newer ones, not the old Romney ones.)

    2. I agree with iMonk that about the choices we have. Both parties could have done better, and that’s been the way of things for the past few elections. In 2000: Vice-President “Lock Box” or Governor Fuzzy Math. In ’04: re-elect W. or vote for the the 3-time Purple Heart winner that was shot down by dragons and El Chupacabre. There are plenty of honest, hard working, intelligent Americans in this country that we don’t get the chance to vote for in the general election.

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40. This talk of not voting disturbs me. I understand the frustration and disgust given our choices this time around. I too share the rage at a sytem of political machines and media propaganda that manipulate and lie to limit our choice of viable candidates that actually have a chance to win, while marginalizing third party guys who represent real change. The problem is twofold.

    1. Not voting is an abdication of our God given vocation as citizens. True, we are citizens of two kingdoms. Each one comes with rights and responsibilities. God has seen fit for one bright and shining moment in history to allow a people to participate in their own governance. This is where we have been placed, and to what we have been called. To cast off the duties and obligations that come with this calling is a rejection of the vocation He has called us to. Think Romans 13 on this one. God has established the authorities here in such a way that it requires our participation in our own governance.

    2. Don’t be deceived, there are those waiting in the wings for the level of non-participation (read that’not voting’) to reach such a level that it becomes a ‘crisis’ that requires their ‘tailor-made’ solution. Said solution will involve all of us having a lot LESS say in how we are governed. We don’t want to find ourselves in this situation.

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41. I agree with most of your post, iMonk. I diverge with you in regards to your low opinion of Palin–I find her to be the one saving grace on the republican ticket. I agreed wholeheartedly with Dr. Dobson when he said that he might withhold his vote in this election because of his disappointment with how the primaries turned out. Palin turned that back around for me.

    What I find most interesting in the comments is the wide breadth of opinion within the Christian circles. When I left seminary (a good school in KY) I identified with a Marxist perspective. I attribute this to the people I was working with (mostly homeless, poor, or college students) and the intentional Christian community I was a part of. Moving back to Colorado, getting married, having to provide for a family–all of these things have changed my perspective. I now consider myself staunchly conservative. Reading the thoughts on Peter being a socialist brought all of this back to the forefront for me…

    I wonder if sometimes the poverty gospel isn’t as prevalent in the Christian community as the prosperity gospel. Haven’t we all been moved by the extreme sacrifices of the missionaries who go overseas, or the Shane Claiborne’s (or Rich Mullin’s, local pastors, etc…) who give up so much to devote their life to the down and out… I’ve got a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for those folks–and they do deserve some of that… But, aren’t they held up in some church circles as so much more spiritual than the rest of the “normal” folks who work secular jobs. I think there’s just as much a tendency to misinterpret the Bible to advance a poverty gospel mentality as there is to advance a prosperity gospel mentality. Just being transparent here–I am employed in ministry, and I occasionally have to guard myself against feeling a false sense of spiritual superiority… Sick, but a real trap a minister can fall into—and one that the church can sometimes unwittingly contribute to.

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42. “Cynthia is anti-Israel, not George.”

    I saw a talk she gave after her run in with the capital security. (I do have the right person?) She’s anti most everything. Including all R’s.

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43. Everybody around the web is having this one out in a similar way. I’m much like you except in two ways: I never liked Paul and I love Sarah Palin wholeheartedly. I don’t buy that Washington experience is anything other than corrupting and her anti-corruption credentials are excellent. I come down on the side of voting for McCain to limit the damage Obama may do (especially in reference to abortion) rather than voting for a third party which I view as a wasted vote, like voting “present” on a bill. Do I like McCain? Not much really, but without a even a semi-conservative in the White House given a Democratic Congress, the brakes are completely off. Have you heard of the Orwellian Freedom of Choice Act? That may well pass under Obama. Sure it’s a negative choice, a choice to limit damage rather than an act of approval for the Republican nominee.

    Ask Mark Shea though for the third party voting argument. We’re polar opposites on this point.

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44. I’m still not sure what I’ll do for the presidential race. Like iMonk, I’m pretty disgusted with both candedates.

    However, I DO know what I’m going to do with everything else. With few exceptions, I’ll be voting for the challengers in each race. I’m so sick of the crap in Washington right now that I just want to kick ’em all out.

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45. Cynthia is anti-Israel, not George.

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46. Interesting thread, and I’m enjoying the repartee.

    I live in metro Atlanta. Peacetrain5, if I were, like you, going to vote for a third-party candidate as a vote meaning “none of the above,” (I’m not, by the way), I would certainly try to remember that Bob Barr (Libertarian candidate and former Georgia congressman from just west of Atlanta) introduced the bill of impeachment against Bill Clinton, and I would remember that Cynthia McKinney (Green candidate and former Georgia congresswoman from just east of Atlanta) charged that George W. Bush knew about the 9/11 terrorists in advance and did nothing about it and is decidedly anti-Israel.

    Some crazies are crazier than others.

    I’m evangelical (or post- or ermerging or slightly pomo something else that hasn’t been defined yet) and conservative and over the past eighteen months I have liked, for various reasons, Sam Brownback (went nowhere), Fred Thompson (went nowhere), Mitt Romney (cut off at the knees by the Borg, I mean evangelical right), and Mike Huckabee (former SBC pastor, Michael, but you knew that). Georgia ended up going for Huckabee in the primary.

    I respect McCain’s personal sacrifices, but thought of either staying home or voting for Barr, even though it was a throw-away vote, until McCain picked Sarah Palin. And although she is from a small state (Bill Clinton, anyone?) and doesn’t have the respect of the coastal elites, I too am praying that God will guide the consciences of voters in the sanctity of the voting booth so that both McCain and Palin can lead our country. If Senator Obama wins, I will pray for him and our country all the more. As my spouse says about Senator Obama, “I don’t hate him, but he frightens me.” His live-birth abortion votes in Illinois, his Marxist associations in college, his denial oft how well he knows unrepentant terrorists (I know, I’m channelling Sean Hannity), his suppression of the tape the Los Angeles Times has, all of these things make me agree with my spouse on this one.

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47. In the actual socialist systems, there was no tax at all. Prices and wages were set by the state, production quotas were set by the state, land and industry were owned by the state. That’s socialism.

    Maybe this is just an argument about definitions, but I object to calling Obama socialist because it is an attempt to tie him to oppressive Communist governments who presided over Socialist economic systems. People are trying to pin the socialist label because when people think of socialism, they think of evil.

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48. “You can be against increasing taxes on the rich, but at least take the time to understand the reality of what is being proposed instead of repeating campaign talking points.”

    With all due respect, JonB, I am the son of an economist..I have a little clue as to what I’m talking about. None of Obama’s proposals with have a positive effect on the economy even if he actually does them and doesn’t pull a Clinton and Bush Sr. and raise taxes after promising not to.

    But, for the sake of argument, let’s assume that he just wants to raise taxes on the evil rich. Is that rich guy going to make do with less or is he going to make changes in his company, such as laying people off, so he can still live the lifestyle he wants to? Is it wrong if he does? If so, why is it wrong that a business owner does what he wants with his company?

    And yes, a progressive income tax IS socialist, regardless of who supports it or not.

    The Obama plan is jealousy and theft. Period. If you support taking money from those who produce (raising taxes on those evil rich) and giving $1000 tax credits to the 40% who PAY NO INCOME TAXES you support stealing from one group and giving it to another…that IS socialism.

    DD

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49. Thank you kirk and bartM.
    I will not be voting….and it is something I feel very strongly about. I don’t agree with people not voting on the basis of indifference, but I do think there is a way to be active about it- and to not vote for actual reasons….I know this may sound odd, but I think even in not voting, that that in itself may be an opportunity to ‘make your voice heard’ as everyone claims voting is. That being said I have many friends whom I respect a lot who are voting. I also hate the fact that some people seem to think voting is the ONLY way to make your voice heard. Since when is that true? The way you live your life makes your voice heard….or hopefully another’s voice- the one we follow.
    thanks imonk for some great insight on all of this too!

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50. “Supporting a Progressive tax is not socialist. Or if it is then McCain is also a socialist.”

    We live in a country where there’s a mix of capitalism, libertarianism, and socialism. Plus a few more “isms” I’ve left out.

    It’s a balancing act. And I’m sure none of us would like to live under any of the pure versions of these.

    But some analysis I’ve seen of Obama’s tax policies indicate that less than 1/2 of the adults of wage earning age will be paying taxes on a net basis. And this IS a big change. What it means is a minority of the population will be carrying the load for the majority. It may not be pure socialism but it sure is farther down that road than we’ve been for a while.

    But like all new administrations there will be a difference between Tuesday’s promises and Wednesday’s cold reality. Leon Panetta and others have said that you win with a long list of big things you want to do. Say 200. Then you start meeting with the CBO, Joint Chiefs, career DOJ, etc… and each meeting you lose some of your list. If lucky you wind up maybe 10 to 20 maybes if you work real hard. Reality is cruel sometimes. Even to the “other” side. 🙂

    And the current state of the budget and economy will stall any grand new schemes for a year or few. For either McCain and Obama. It’s going to be triage for a while.

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51. For what it’s worth, I’m a Christian conservative who is voting for Obama for the following reasons:
    1) competence and intelligence over ideology
    2) being pro-life should also include being against torture, and against unnecessary wars
    3) penance for voting for Bush and the Republicans two national elections in a row – these guys deserve to be punished

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52. Things turned nasty in this campaign precisely because the candidates are not all that different. we could be happy:

    -more people are interested and voting

    -it looks like minorities and women really can achieve the top posts in America

    -both candidates are probably more practical than ideological and will probably listen to their advisors

    For better or for worse, I don’t really believe there is a huge difference between the candidates on immigration, taxes and the economy, free trade, or even the kinds of judges they would appoint or the war in Iraq.

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53. Here’s the quote, Kirk:

    “I think the big problem is that as Christians we have forgotten that our identity is wrapped up in Christ. And, for a long time we bought into the illusion that the will of the masses would be more generous and more benevolent than the will of one dictator. But, democracy is not necessarily bad politics, it’s just bad math. A thousand corrupt minds is just as evil as one corrupt mind.”

    I agree with the Monk, not only in his frustration with the current candidates but with his view that it’s part of our responsibility as stewards of our Father’s world to vote when the opportunity is provided. This year, faced with such a horrendous slate of presidential candidates (he left out Cynthia McKinney, Alleged Assaulter of Capitol Policemen, and Ralph Nader, who’s becoming my generation’s Harold Stassen), I gave serious thought to writing in Tony Stark!

    But I was pleasantly surprised to find former Assistant Secretary of State Alan Keyes on the ballot, on the American Independent Party of California ticket. I had always avoided the AIP because of its roots in the 1968 candidacy of George Wallace. But if a party with a previous history of racism is now willing to put an African-American at the top of their ticket (one whose foreign policy experience is far stronger than Obama’s or McCain’s, IMNVHO), well, I’m willing to give them a shot.

    I know he won’t be elected. But I can’t in clear conscience vote for McCain or Obama. And as the man said, to go against conscience is neither right nor safe …

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54. As for the not voting and how we will react afterwards please see Romans 13.
    I for one am sick to the very depths of my soul of the hate and vitriol of the the past 16-24 years (mostly fomented to sell papers and advertising).
    I will support whomever is elected as the American president regardless of whether I voted for that person or not.
    I will pray for that person.
    All liberals are not atheists/agnostics.
    All Christians are not conservatives on every issue.
    Do any of you remember the weeks following 9/11?
    What happened? Weren’t we supposed to have banished trivialities and foolishness from politics?
    I suspect all on this post are patriots (not the hated New England variety).
    As patriots, left, right or somewhere in the middle we all love our country and want success for her.
    As Christians we all want what is best for all of mankind.
    If Mr. Obama is elected which seems likely then he will be our president and as Romans 13:1 points out appointed by God not men.
    We should keep this in mind as we move into the next administration.
    God is in control.

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55. Michael,

    I believe that not voting is a violation of the stewardship we have received as citizens of this country.

    Right on, dude! Having a vote is a little bit like inheriting money. Maybe you want to use it to feed yourself, feed the poor, save for retirement, for a host of things good or bad. But just flushing it down the toilet is inexcusable.

    On a totally different tack, here’s something for the pro-lifers out there to consider: McCain has pledged to nominate strict constructionist justices to our courts, and this might finally bring an end to Roe v. Wade. Obama, on the other hand, has pledged to sign the “Freedom of Choice” act, which will undo every bit of the small progress pro-lifers have made over the years. On this one issue, the choice is indeed very clear cut.

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56. Supporting a Progressive tax is not socialist. Or if it is then McCain is also a socialist.

    I know lots of people who lived through the Cultural Revolution in China, when school kids beat up their teachers, establishment bureaucrats were vilently purged, science was abandoned in favor of ideology, the economy stagnated, and Joe the Worker was glorified.

    I have no illusions about Communism, but Obama is no Communist and no Socialist, not by a long-shot. Vote against him, by all means, but please give this particular reason a rest.

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57. But it is not illegal not to vote…what must I render?? It is a choice that might indeed show my lack of stewardship to a process that is within God’s story, but I just don’t believe it necessary. Thanks Kirk for the deeper thoughts.

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58. I believe that not voting is a violation of the stewardship we have received as citizens of this country. It is in effect saying we don’t believe God has a common grace will or that there are any moral issues at stake. Render unto Caesar, and my fellow Americans have purchased my participation in this process with their blood. I am not a non-citizen. I am a citizen of two Kingdoms.

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59. “Not voting. Not an option.”

    I’d like to suggest that not voting is very much an option. And not just because there isn’t a candidate you are happy about. The Bible never addressed appropriate Christian responsibilities in a republic, but Jesus did say not to lord it over other people like the Gentiles do. He was offered the kingdoms of the world and he turned them down. He subverted political systems with something better and more powerful–the inbreaking of the kingdom of God.

    Since God is our king, perhaps it would make sense to confine our methodology for effecting change to reliance on his power and his Spirit. I don’t trust princes or horses or chariots anyway. Shouldn’t we believe that God in his church can do more than any human being to bless this world, bring peace and care for the poor?

    I’m nearer every day to deciding that I don’t want to be invested in this system at all. I don’t want worldly power, even the fairly minimal power of casting a ballot. I don’t want to be deluded into thinking that I’ve made a difference by checking a box besides someone’s name. I don’t want to be tempted to start believing that if we get just the right person into office, that suddenly it will make a difference.

    A humble book recommendation: I would love to see your response to “Electing Not to Vote: Christian Reflections on Reasons for Not Voting,” edited by Ted Lewis. You might find it persuasive.

    Rich Mullins once said something like “Democracy is the belief that a million people are less corrupt than one. That’s not bad theology; it’s bad math.”

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60. I understand your plight completely.
    I went through all of the same thoughts, and eventually found that I had to pull the lever for….McCain.
    I seriously don’t trust Obama.

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61. So why is NOT voting a bad thing?

    I have a King and a Kingdom….and HE is neither McCain OR Obama and it is not the U.S.A.

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62. It seems to me as folowers of Christ we have not been put here on this planet to fix it up politically or in any other way. Our mission should we choose to accept it is to display a new system of operation called the Kingdom of God. The two are opposed and will not be displayed as one. The kingdoms of this world will not be “fixed”. If only we spent as much time, energy and resourses trying to display the kingdom of God as we do to promote the kingdoms of this world we would see real change. The kingdom of God is a display of unconditional love which will cost us everything.

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63. DaveD,

    Obviously you’ve made up your mind for other reasons, but let’s clear up the $250k tax thing. If you own a business, you bring the revenue AFTER expenses onto page 1 of your 1040, right below your personal income. If my business makes $1.5 million in revenue, yet I spend $1.4 million employing people, paying their insurance, renting office space, buying printers, leasing a car, etc., etc., I am reporting $100k ($1.5mm revenue minus $1.4mm expenses) plus my personal income, if any. So while my business has well over $250k in revenue, I would not be affected by Obama’s proposed tax increases, because my actual income is less.

    In fact, I would only get taxed more if I didn’t use my business revenue to employ more people, and instead kept the revenue as more personal profit.

    So when McCain says Obama’s tax at $250k will hurt small business job creation, it’s extremely misleading. If that money is being taxed, it is because it was kept as profit for the owner and not used to employ someone, or else it would be deducted as a business expense.

    You can be against increasing taxes on the rich, but at least take the time to understand the reality of what is being proposed instead of repeating campaign talking points.

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64. My state doesn’t allow write-ins, but if they did, I’d vote for Fred Thompson.

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65. You’re killin me!!! I thought Bob Barr was all that was left, now you say no, no, no. Why, Why, Why?

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66. I agree with much of what you say, though I wish you could have kept it buttoned up until after election day, because when the choice is between bad and worse, I want the bad to win.

    One thing to think about:
    I’m not alone in saying this is not a woman I want in the Oval Office or #2 in the chain of command. She’s simply not ready to lead and no amount of talking points or Madison Avenue makeovers will make her ready. America isn’t Alaska.

    Yes, but I’ll roll the dice on her before I will roll the dice on the alternatives. (And, yes, folks, we are rolling the dice either way!) And before I make up my mind that she really is bad, I have to remember how much she sounds like Reagan did back in the seventies and eighties, and how everyone is lambasting her in all the same ways they did Reagan: “She panders to the right. She’s an extremist. She’s behind the times. She has no Washington experience. She’s dumb as a post.”

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67. I used a few of the many websites to show how votes were made in the past, how special interest groups were supported by each candidate, and how the fruits of their labor (votes) has effected us all.

    Then I remembered that God has a wonderful way of calling us to him. Whether it’s the economy, a war, terrible destruction by weather systems, traffic, my sore back, my child’s innocent smile… They all point me back to how I need Jesus.

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68. Vote Green in 08′
    Seriously, Some third party group needs to step up and show they mean business. I respect my vote for a third party is a waste to the big picture. To me though, it is a vote of none of the above. If enough people take this approach maybe some brilliant politician will see the rising tide of frustration with the present two party system and try to unite us non-conformists. There may be quite a few of us to unite.

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69. Let’s see, Barrack’s tax plan wouldn’t increase your taxes if you made over 300k then 250 then 200 and most recently Biden is saying $150k. Since most small businesses file taxes under the owners name that means if Joe does buy a plumbing company with over 250K in revenues Barrack WILL be taxing him. Eight employees making $30k a year plus benefits puts a company well over even the now abandoned $250k mark.

    For those that believe that Obama is for “the little guy” why did he mock Joe the Plumber and all plumbers? Why did his campaign use State of Ohio computers and databases to see if he had ever gotten welfare, owed taxes etc…things ILLEGAL to do? Why did the try to smear a man who disagreed with them? Get used to it.

    Raising taxes on thos evil rich folks will LOWER revenue tot he government. Bush lowered the rate and instead of growing to 55 billion (GAO estimate of revenues without a tax break) to 103 billion. Why? If it costs you less each time you buy something, you’ll buy more of it which equals less tax on each item but more items. Jobs will be lost as well. The rich will just invest less to compensate for the taxes which means more companies will have to cut back.

    Barack is a millionaire and yet has given less than 3% to charity and a good portion of that only in the last 3 years. Biden, another millionaire, has given less than $5k to charity. If they really cared about the poor and downtrodden, why aren’t they giving money to help them? If, as Barry says, he is willing to pay more taxes to help folks, why won’t he just donate to the countless charities out there? Because it’s about power to the central government.

    He’s hung out for 20 years with people who hate America; people who have BOMBED America. He is married to a women who thinks America is “mean” and that she was never proud of America until it nominated her husband. He wants to change huge swaths of what makes America different from the rest of the world. When, exactly, do we get to say that he doesn’t like America? Just wonderin’.

    Obama is a socialist and a race monger.

    McCain is just slightly to the right of Obama, maybe not even as much as Bill Clinton is.

    Remember, supporting the lesser of two evils is STILL supporting evil.

    DD

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70. Michael said:

    “Why do you say God will guide her? I don’t understand that.”

    I concur. Regardless of the candidates, I question the growing trend, even evidenced here, where it is better to vote for a lesser politician who is an evangelical Christian than a better politician because God will guide the one and not the other. I understand the argument that a Christian candidate has (assumed) integrity, morality, and humility, but I don’t buy it.

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71. I pray for the president every day, regardless of my personal feelings, and will continue to do so for either Senator McCain or Senator Obama.

    In regard to character issues, of which there are plenty, I’m amazed that Senator McCain’s notorious womanizing hasn’t come up as an issue. I know that it happened a number of years ago, but it still bothers me. I never bought President Bush’s idea that everything that happened before his conversion was off limits, but he seemingly got by with it.

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72. For record, I’m not a McCain guy either, and Michael covered all my reasons.

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73. Michael spoke my thoughts exactly.
    If anyone is wondering why I don’t trust Obama you should watch the PBS Frontline documentary on the two candidates: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/choice2008/view/

    It is stated several times that his political handlers had him fast tracked for the White House. To accomplish this, they put him in position to give speeches, but deliberately told him to cast votes as little as possible. Thus the many “present” votes. The idea being that a voting record could be held against him. Not my words, theirs. If that isn’t grounds for mistrust, I don’t know what is.

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74. “We had a surplus when Bill Clinton left office – for all his faults. He didn’t spend money he didn’t have!”

    I have to point out that there were three things going on during this time which may not happen again for 50 or more years.

    Newt and Armey were much more frugal with the purse than anyone for many years before or since. (They had their faults, some of them big but compared to other Congresses they were down right skin flints.) When there was a big battle over the budget they basically stonewalled Clinton. And while in the end Clinton won the PR battle the end result was that budgets where much smaller than the D’s would have liked.

    The capital gains tax was greatly reduced. And a lot of folks who’d been waiting for this to happen cashed out of many investments with large gains and put the money elsewhere. This created a lot of short term revenue for the capital sales which came in a rush as folks had held out waiting for this cut.

    Then at the same time as the capitol gain tax cuts the Internet boom took off. And for several years you had all the money just mentioned being invested into Internet companies. Some smart, some really really really stupid. So for a while you had a large amount of economic activity going on that was not sustainable. (How many online actions houses, groceries, pet supplies, etc… are still standing?) But for a while Clinton enjoyed a time of increasing tax revenues from all the activity. And when the steam ran out in late 99 and early 00 the revenues dried up and Bush came in and acted as if it would restart. It never did and he never quit acting. 🙂

    So, yes Clinton and Congress left a balanced budget at the end of their terms in January 2001 but it was built on temporary supports and not meant to be for the long term. Plus this was the gang that passed AND signed the law allowing much of the unregulated activity in the financial markets that we are all paying for now. On the last days I might add.

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75. well said Michael. I agree that this is a truly frustrating election and have had some of the same thoughts myself about the whole thing.

    Not voting — not an option. Tough choices.

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76. If I look to the candidates to see who believes as I do, and belief is the key to understanding the heart, I see a guy who led ecumenical services in prison running with a woman who would sit next to me in church vs. a ticket made of a guy who sat for 20 years in a church I would walk out of running with a guy whose church discusses forbidding him of Communion.
    Faith and church are important to me. The candidate does not have to be of my faith to gain my support, but he needs to have a faith , and believe it.
    So I who feel Christ can enable me to do all things, will enable my sister Sarah to do whatever she needs to do. I feel Sarah Palin will be led by God because she really believes and will pray and ask God for guidance. I feel from what she has said , that she is humble enough to listen. Thus I feel Sarah Palin will be led by God.

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77. I’ve always voted for people and not parties. And lately that’s been mostly R but since 80 I’ve not voted R 3 times just because I thought the R wasn’t qualified or would be a patsy to Congress.

    My problem is that with the presidential candidates for the last 20+ years I’ve never rated anyone at 5 or above on a scale of 1 to 10. So I’ve voted based on how I think the country will turn out 5 or 10 or 15 years from now based on who gets elected. Not what they’ll do day on 1 or 100. Which leads me to choices my evangelical friend don’t understand at all. I want to remember reading somewhere that Luther said something to the effect of “I’d rather live under the rule of a brilliant atheist than a Christian fool.” (Does anyone else know about this statement?)

    “glibly talks about “redistributing” wealth.” Yes I know that all taxes are a redistribution scheme of one kind or another but taking my taxes to build roads is somewhat different than using them to insure beach houses at below costs or bringing the income of a family of 4 from $40K up to $60K. And the tone of O’s campaign might come back to bite us all. Or not. Some kids in the local high schools are talking about how they don’t have to worry about college and a “good” job because O will take care of them. I have no idea how widespread this feeling is but it is a scary comment on what at least a few people are thinking.

    As to “Remember the first marxist Peter, telling all those new believers to sell everything they had and bring at all to him so that the needs of all the faithful could be met?” ….

    I’ve got to feel this is a case of applying logic to the local situation of the day, not an economic policy for how to run a country in the 21st century. Unless we want to revert back to Amish as our model. Remember that at the time of Christ 99.9% of the personal economy was withing an hours walk. And if we do adopt the Amish or a similar model then we basically will be living under a totally secular government in a few years. Not sure this is the way we should proceed. But maybe I’m all wet and God really intended us to live oppressed (physically) lives under empires and dictators.

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78. Plus, about Obama being, “spend, spend, spend.” At least Democrats don’t try to spend money they haven’t got. As Republicans are so fond of saying, “They’re tax and spend.” We had a surplus when Bill Clinton left office – for all his faults. He didn’t spend money he didn’t have! Republicans spend, spend, spend. Look how in debt George Bush has gotten us! The difference is that Republicans spend now, and let our grandchildren worry about how to pay for it.

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79. All taxation is a redistribution of wealth. We’re just so used to OUR wealth going to the top that we’ve forgotten to ask why.

    Obama’s socialism: Asking people who make over 200K (individuals) 250k (families) to go back to paying the tax-rate they were before Bush’s tax cuts. Raising taxes on companies that export American jobs overseas. Giving tax breaks to companies that create American jobs. He’s a real SOB that Obama.

    But, the #1 reason Obama will get my vote on Tuesday is mostly his gift for oration. Tough times are coming. I don’t think any of us have even begun to think of how bad in our dizziest worst nightmares, and there’s not a dag-gone thing Obama or McCain can do to stop it. Heck I’ve even said Obama say THAT! What Obama can do that McCain either can’t or won’t is keep our eyes focused on the light at the end of the tunnel, keep us reminding that if we work together we’ll be better than ever when we come out on the other side. He can make us feel like we’re standing tall when we’re going through hell. Whereas McCain would be up there saying, “Quit whining you babies! You’re not real Americans!”

    Plus, the recent Repubican mudslinging that there’s a real America and a fake America just makes me sick. Nobody is more American than anyone else. If you live here and can vote here, you’re an American. Period. They Republicans are trying to devide the country, and a house devided against itself cannot stand! That is another reason Obama will get my vote on Tuesday. As I heard the man himself say: There’s no red America or Blue America. There is only the United States of America.

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80. Mr. Whipple:

    >So when Michael talks about socialism and marxism, it concerns me. I imagine Michael will readily admit that he knows little about either theory. And if he took the time to investigate the claims that obama is a socialist, he’d find that they are baseless.

    You are skirting pretty close to being banned in this thread. You apparently want the irony award, because you don’t know what I know about anything. I’m one thesis short of a Doctorate, I’ve taught many units on both Socialism and Marxism, and I’m quite aware of what they are all about.

    I said “flirtation” with socialism and Marxism. I’m not the one who said in his autobiography that I intentionally hung out with Marxist professors. I’m not the one who glibly talks about “redistributing” wealth.

    You can say what you want on here about the topic, but you need to be a little less sure of what I know and don’t know.

    Patrick:

    Ron Paul knows exactly who wrote the racist rhetoric in his newsletters. He’s not a racist. Not at all. But he was too loyal to friends who said things that misrepresented him.

    peace

    MS

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81. I quite agree w/ your assessment, iMonk. I’ve been severely disappointed w/ the direction this election has gone. I finally cast my ballot in CA for McCain (wasted, I know), but it was tough. I’m 100% convinced that if Obama’s past were put under the same scrutiny as McCain’s he’d never win a state (except maybe CA–my home state–or somewhere in the Northeast). 🙂 I’ve wanted to vote libertarian, but there are also some there I don’t agree w/. What impresses me about the libertarians is that many of them, in particular Mr. Paul, are the only ones that even mention the Constitution in any way other than one that validates their own political beliefs. They seem to be the only ones that try to conform their beliefs to the Constitution instead of vice versa.

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82. maybe this is too late to be relevant, but nevertheless:

    the book of acts does not justify socialism as a political system.

    1. the church is not a state.
    2. they voluntarily sold their belongings (peter didn’t “command” them to).
    3. “all who believed were together and had all things in common.”
    4. they gave to those in need; they didn’t redistribute everything equally.
    5. the passage itself is merely descriptive, not prescriptive.
    6. a canonical perspective on government will reveal it is not intended to be a distributor of wealth.

    i’m sure there are more, but that’s all that come to mind at the moment.

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83. Michael,

    As usual, the colors you are painting with fill in the gaps for me. I totally understand where you are coming from. Unlike Mr Whipple, I have not swallowed the koolaid of either candidate. Not necessarily because I am so smart, but mainly out of frustration. For too many years I have been partnering conservatism with the gospel. I have believed that it provided the best vehicle for the advancement of the gospel (whatever that means). While I will always prefer freedom, lower taxes, more choices about everything, this election has taught me a lesson. The lesson? As much as I love Ronald Reagan, as much as I believe that Bush was the right man at the right time for 911, there is a but. And that is, at least for me, that I have been practicing a form of idolatry in believing more in politics and certain politicians than in God and Jesus. I still hope McCain wins, but I have to admit, he is only a stop gap while we wait for the next conservative messiah, (sarcasm intended). For those of you who think that Obama is going to be your Ronald Reagan, I have a message for you. You will be disappointed. You might want to make sure you keep one eye on Jesus and not make the mistake of putting all your faith in Obama.

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84. Mitt Romney’s Mormon beliefs had little to do with why Evangelicals didn’t support him (though I’m certain it didn’t help him any). I think the following video explains it a little better.

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85. I’m a pro-life Democrat. That said, I don’t trust politics. I trust Jesus.

    And I think much too much is made about the president in these elections. For some reason, every four years, we tend to totally forget what the president actually does, and pay attention to what the candidates claim they’ll do. McCain and Obama, fr’instance, have health care programs. Big deal. Will either of them get passed? Not unless they can get Congress to play ball. Because Congress has that power.

    What about their economic programs? That’s handled by Congress too. Funding the war? Congress. Funding (or not funding) abortion? Congress. McCain’s favorite plan to get rid of earmarks? Congress. Without Congress, neither of these guys have the power to do most of the stuff they want to.

    You wanna stop abortion? Congress could a constitutional amendment. The statehouses could vote on it. Get it done within a year. Neither the President nor the Supreme Court could veto it. But what strategy do we usually discuss? “Let’s vote for a pro-life President who will pick pro-life justices for the Supreme Court.” It’s like trying to stop a rapist by, instead of calling the police, calling the fire department because they could spray him with the hose.

    The entire House and a third of the Senate is up for re-election; it makes more sense to me to be concerned about them. Instead, we ignore them in favor of the distraction of the presidential candidates, and usually allow the same power-addled fools to go back to Washington and pretend they’re busy, and in the meanwhile throw some expensive government projects our way so that we remember them fondly.

    And, instead of loving our neighbor, we irrationally expect the politicians to do something other than what they’ve done ever since we started electing our leaders: We expect them to love our neighbors so that we don’t have to, and cut our taxes so that we don’t have to pay for it. And, in the case of libertarians: Eliminate as many laws as they can so that we can return to our natural state of goodness—despite the obvious sinfulness of humanity. And (to be balanced) in the case of socialists: Create moral laws—despite refusing to accept or admit any one moral code.

    I’m really looking forward to King Jesus’s monarchy.

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86. Vote Librarian

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87. Mr. Whipple said…
    “the first marxist Peter…”

    With all due respect, sir, there is no connection/comparison whatsoever between monolithic, atheistic, amoral, authoritarian State marxism/socialism and early Christian sharing/generosity. The early believers voluntarily shared what they had in response to the call of Jesus in their lives and out of gratitude and love. No one was ever forcibly required to give up their stuff. A prime example would be Barnabas…obviously a property owner, who voluntarily gave some of his own property to help meet the needs in the community.

    Quite a difference in that and modern, tried-and-failed State socialism that seeks to equalize people by bringing them all down to the same level, rather than inspiring them to be better.

    But then I guess “Jesus was a poor homeless kid” or something like that. He and his family were temporarily displaced…by an oppressive State taxation burden!

    Thanks for your insights…

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88. To quote one third party candidate the two major parties have left us “the evil of two lessers.”

    As much as I dislike McCain (andfear Obama’s draconian stances on abortion, the 2nd Ammendment, and redistributionism) I will vote for McCain. Why? Because Obama’s appointments to the Supreme Court will, by their decisions,make
    felons out of many of us,who will have done nothing but fallen outside the bounds of their radical re-interpretation of the Costitution. (And he will tax and regulate the crap out of us.)

    As for Ron Paul, I have a hard time believing the charges against him. This is the same guy that while being interviewed (read that attacked by)a host of a Fox news show had the words “Brothel Owner Supports Paul Candidacy” underneath his video feed, while he fended off their bogus charges for five minutes. ( Oh yeah, I’ll never watch that BS propagandistic network again.)Furthermore, every candidate has donors and supporters that they would rather not have. Some are more or less protected by the media, others just ignore it. Can you imagine what we would find if we went through McCain’s supporters and donors with a fine toothed comb? Just look at the “rogue’s gallery”of Hillary and Obama donors.
    Putting the best construction on things, I think RP probably thought that addressing the issue of the news letter would only lend credence to those making the charges. (Hey, its way more believable than Barney Frank saying he had no idea his boyfriend was running a prostitution ring out of Mr.Franks condo.)

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89. Why do so many people think the country being divided is a bad thing, and that Obama can change this? Its a big country and there are big issues- people are bound to have honorable disagreements on any number of things. Plus, if Obama does tone down the “culture war,” it will only be by institutionalizing and attempting to end debate on issues that serious Christians are right to be suspicious of (abortion being the obvious example). The country is always going to be divided, and its foolish to think that this changing would be a good thing.

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90. Good post. You have Obama pegged, iMonk. I have my doubts about McCain, but not about Palin. There’s a lot more to her than one bad interview. On top of her many other good qualities, she understands brokenness, a rare thing in a political leader.

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91. willoh: I know a thing or two about chicago politics but i don’t see the election as a referendum on that subject or obama’s alleged failure to do something about it.

    I’m not advocating socialism. My point is that the charge that obama is a “socialist” is nonsense. In fact, McCain will say he doesn’t believe Obama is a socialist on a talk show but will then go out on the campaign trail and say just about exactly that, or let his surrogates do it for him.

    The supposedly “socialist” program obama advocates will raise taxes on people whose adjusted gross income (that’s income after allowable deductions) is $250k or more. That’s a very small percentage of Americans that will never affect Joe the Plumber. It’s an odd thing to watch ole Joe And if your AGI is less than $200k, you’ll actually get a tax cut under obama. Those are the facts; but the impression McCain has been able to create means that a majority of people think obama will raise their taxes and mccain will reduce them. But that’s the power of an impression.

    So when Michael talks about socialism and marxism, it concerns me. I imagine Michael will readily admit that he knows little about either theory. And if he took the time to investigate the claims that obama is a socialist, he’d find that they are baseless.

    In any event, as I pointed out earlier, McCain supports the same scheme of progressive taxation that obama does, which is the basis of this nonsense about obama the redistributor.

    Finally, Marxism is not “religion is the opiate of the people,” but something much different. Give it a google.

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92. Why do you say God will guide her? I don’t understand that.

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93. I still like Sarah Palin. I just like her as a person. I’ll bet some people in Alaska doubted her too, but now she has a high approval rating and has actually done some good. God will guide her, I trust her to listen to Him. I am in favor of inexperienced people in power. Look at the mess made by the experienced!

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94. Since the economy has eclipsed the war I’m sure a lot of evangelicals who wouldn’t support Romney when he needed it feel foolish. I saw a piece interviewing him when the crash was at its worst and he was the picture of knowledge and confidence. Not a skilled politician, but the idea that evangelicals wouldn’t support a Mormon is almost as bad as their ridiculous racial/religious fears of Obama.

    Right now, Romney would look pretty good. Republicans are getting the mess they made and deserved.

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95. The last sentence was the best! May the Lord have mercy on us all.

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96. OK.

    Keep it VERY civil and straightforward.

    I don’t want to have to moderate a political brawl.

    Peace

    MS

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97. You just know that if Mitt Romney got the nod somebody would find a video of him on a bike with black pants and a white shirt.

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98. Mr. Whipple, are you familiar with Chicago politics? What did Sen Obama do there to clean it up? Nothing.
    Please name the place on earth where socialism has worked, or is working.
    And please, Peter was no Marxist. the quote “Jesus is the opiate of the people” is not in any translation.

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99. Barr is just more wallpaper. A frustrated conservative that even the libertarians don’t like. There are libertarian positions I reject, and I wouldn’t vote for the party for a lot of reasons. Paul was inspiring, pro-life, visionary, etc.

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100. I hear you concerns about Ron Paul. Why the “No, no, no” to Barr?

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101. “I hear…I see…I feel.” Those are my personal impressions. I don’t vote on what other people tell me they feel and think. I have to have confidence in the man myself. I don’t think he uses hypnisis or is a Muslim or the anti-Christ. But his first bill signing will be a major attack on the pro-life movement, and after that all I hear is spend spend spend class warfare and racial rhetoric. Not a good senator, and not going to be Presidential in my book for a long time.

     But I hope I’m wrong. I hope he’s successful. I’ll support him if he wins. And trust me in Ky any vote for him is wasted anyway.

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102. Thanks for putting my feelings into words. Spot on.

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103. You have covered the whole spectrum and can’t find a color to match. I registered dem in college and voted for Al harris in the primary. I think I was 50% of his voter base. I trained as an Alinsky community organizer in Peace corp./Vista and turned into a conservative republican soon after. I too am now lonely as a voter.
     The choice for me is easy, Obama never said anyrhing I could attach to. Nothing. And at least McCain can see the right, if not lean that way. I found myself missing Hillary, and that thought shook me up for weeks.
     The country is divided the church is divided and I think I found a common thread. We all forgot our first Love. The republicans forgot to be conservative, the democrats forgot the working man, and the church got so tied up with theology we forget Jesus and His cross.
     We all need to get back to basics.
     We need democrats who remember that most of their people are Believers, Republicans who stick to core conservative beliefs and Churches who care more about the salvation of sinners thru the Gospel of Jesus and less about denominational distinctives and attendance numbers.
     You nor I can fix the world, but we all better pray for a healing in this country. Jesus warned us about a house divided and that is us. We are not only 50 /50 we are worlds apart. So pray for whoever wins, the poor guy is gonna need God’s help big time.

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104. Michael:

     Where are you getting your information about Obama? Have you actually watched any extended interviews with him?

     What in particular do you have in mind when you “don’t see personal integrity”? What are the lies about “personal associations”? And the flirtation with socialism? Have mercy! McCain believes the same things Obama does on progressive taxation (if that’s what you mean when you toss out socialism and Marxism–do you even understand what those systems entail?) and there’s video from 2000 to prove it. No less a president than McCain’s hero, Teddy Roosevelt, implemented the progressive income tax and McCain has supported it and will continue to support it. If progressive taxation is socialism, do you think McCain intends to get rid of it and replace it with a flat tax? Of course not. He just wants the wealthiest Americans to keep getting the ill-advised cuts that Bush implemented. There will be still plenty of “socialism” to go around. Obama’s no more a socialist than you’re Phil Johnson.

     Any even if he were, what’s that to a Christian? Remember the first marxist Peter, telling all those new believers to sell everything they had and bring at all to him so that the needs of all the faithful could be met? We’ve come a long way, baby! You have a voice in our political system. Why not demand that your taxes go to provide for the guy beaten and left for dead on the side of the road in need of health care? Why not have a government that cannot and should not be all things to all people but in targeted ways, provides a solution to systemic evil. Too many folks lose there homes, their jobs, their marriages when catastrophic illness or injury occurs and they can’t afford medical care. What says the Christian to that? Oh, the churches will take care of them. You know that’s not true. So what’s the response. Socialism! Even your Lord an Savior supported it, and not just for other Christians.

     rookie arrogance on foreign policy? Please watch obama’s interview with Rachel maddow this week and tell me what is arrogant about what he says about afghansistan or pakistan or iraq. There is nothing at all arrogant about his foreign policy. If anything, the policies he’s advocated now have the imprimatur of Gen. Patreus. Please, watch the interview.

     I obviously couldn’t disagree with you more about your impressions of obama. I’ve never been more excited about a candidate who actually cares about good government, who is actually a fairly cautious politician who is not proposing any radical programs (if you actually bothered to check the facts–I hope you aren’t relying only on fair and balanced to get your information).

     Anyway. I enjoy your blog, and you seem to really care about truth. But I think you’re really missing the boat on obama. If it’s about abortion, I understand your sentiments. But this other stuff? No way.

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105. Yes, yes, yes. I’m torn between voting Republican for a candidate that has no appeal to me or the values that I hold (“loyal conservative evangelical in favor of smaller government, strong defense and lower taxes”) and voting Democrat to send a message to the Republicans to find a new direction and/or to maintain marital unity with my wife…

     Sometimes I wish that we could all vote for a “None of the above” option and force something new.

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106. There’s no way I can know anything about a third party candidate except some statement of principles. That was what was different about Ron Paul. The MAN made an impression.

     Most of the super conservative third parties have positions on some issues that I can’t support.

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107. What about Chuck Baldwin/Constitution Party?

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108. Thanks, Michael, from a fellow traveler! Exactly what I’ve been trying to articulate to folks who would listen!

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