When the “Reached” are “Unreached”

215 thoughts on “When the “Reached” are “Unreached””

1. End of thread. And what a shame. This was a pretty good discussion until it descended to mutual anathemas. I’m so glad we have TWO flawless religions represented here today. Praise God!

   Now I’ll go tell my wife that she’s not a Christian, and apparently never was, because she doesn’t believe someone’s theory of the atonement.

   (Not thinking of you here, Alan, btw. You have every right to defend your beliefs from this kind of denunciation.)

   A pox on both your houses. Ignorance and Arrogance are great dancing partners. Do you people really believe this is the way forward? Throwing each other into hell over theological minutia? Sheesh…..where’s the sign up list for Buddhism?

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2. As a person who is not a Catholic you believe that we teach an unbiblical Gospel. For a Catholic this is not only an impossibility it is an act of open hostility.

   You don’t own the Bible, it is not personaly yours, it wasn’t your “tradition” that put it together. The Church, Tradition and Scripture are one and cannot be separated.

   This was the problem with Luther, he believed that the Church taught a false Gospel. Yet he thought something contrary to everything the historical Church in either West or East ever taught. He believed him self above the Pope, Magistarium, Councils, Bishops and Saints.

   I read the Bible and I see everything the Church teaches on it. How can that be unbiblical? if I see it on the Bible when I read it.

   Bill – I answered Christopher’s comment in the spirit in which he wrote it.

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3. In fact, considering that I’m going to have my last communion ever with my wife tomorrow (as she’s about to be received into the RCC) I’d suggest this is not a productive direction for this conversation. IM has hundreds of RC readers. You’ve made it clear that- surprise!- you believe they are trusting in a false Gospel. We get it. I get it. I’ll pass it along to my spouse whenever we can actually talk about this- which won’t be anytime soon.

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4. OK, I’m not reeeeaaally getting in to this, because, mostly, I think it’s fruitless bickering, BUT – here’s something that sort of needs logically teasing out…

   IF the Catholic Church has forsaken, or never had or believed, or taught, and does not now teach “the true biblical Gospel”…

   THEN no one – this is logic 101 people and I made like a 100% average in that class – then NO ONE who believes what it teaches, who is a part of it, who wants to be a part of it, who purposely remains a part of it, could possibly “be saved” as the definition is being put forth. It just doesn’t follow.

   THERFORE don’t say these things about “the biblical Gospel” in connection with the Catholic Church if you don’t mean what you’re saying. And if you don’t mean to say this, then perhaps be a little more careful how you say what you’re trying to say – that would be the only real point I would want to interject.

   Peace and Happy Advent to all ya’ll!

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5. Joe: This post isn’t about saying all Catholics are Christians. It’s about the SBC’s default position that almost everyone besides themselves is lost.

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6. Joe: This discussion isn’t about what I’ve said in the past.

   If I believed Rome taught all of the Biblical gospel, I’d join the RCC. When I wrote those words, I thought Calvinism was the Biblical Gospel. I was wrong.

   I thoroughly understand why others believe Catholics don’t have the Biblical Gospel. I believe the Reformation was a tragic necessity. But if you think evangelicals have the Biblical Gospel, you can count me out of that party. We have plenty of our own problems.

   Now that you’ve set yourself up to use the term Biblical Gospel, I expect you ought to tell us exactly who has it and where we can hear it infallibly taught. ANd be sure that when you mention someone like Piper or Macarthur, I’m going to ask you if those guys are on target on everything, such as the relationship of faith and works.

   BTW- that’s the last comment about me that I will allow unedited.

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7. iMonk,

   I don’t get the sense that non-RCC posters are claiming that Catholics are unsaved by default (at least, I could find no such statements.)I think you are reading that into the conversations, including the IMBs position on SA.

   I think what is being said is that the RCC does not teach the true gospel.

   If a church, any church, does not teach the true gospel, there is no reason to presume that it’s adherents are “reached.”

   You once vehemently believed that the RCC does not teach the true gospel.

   “The Catholic Church has badly mangled the Gospel. Mangled it to the point that to become Catholic would be to forsake the Biblical Gospel…As much as I admire in Catholicism, I cannot believe its Gospel of salvation is the Biblical Gospel.”

   Based on the current conversation, you now seem to believe that, though the RCC teaches some error, it’s core gospel message is sound and it’s adherents “reached.”

   Certainly you remember why you once held so firmly to your previous conviction? And why others still hold such conviction?

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8. Abraham believed God and it was ‘counted as righteousness.’ To believe God is to know, in some personal way, the person of God, in Christ, and by way of the Holy Spirit. Believing God requires some honest attempt towards buying in to the politics of God….His ideology…as well as one human can. The ‘cans’ vary with the individual. All who believe in the sovereignty of God….and His redemptive acts through Christ Jesus…are
   Christian. Honest effort is the key here. I love all of you from the depths of my heart….in God. Whatever denomination, interpretation, or doctrine…you are partakers with me in His immense mercy and Love.

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9. You’re losing me on the point here. Several of you don’t think Catholics are Christians. Well…that’s where this post started. What are we doing now? Saying it more forcefully so everyone knows we’re really, really serious?

   If this is going to end up saying that I’m not a Christian, let’s just cut to the chase.

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10. C.S. Lewis made it clear in Mere Christianity that Christianity is not any of the “maps” we draw or the “recipes” we write. If you are saying that no one is a Christian who doesn’t buy someone else’s articulation of what happens on the cross, then you’ve tossed out 80% of professing Christians. Which is a very Protestant thing to do. Now we can go to work on the other 20%.

    The creedal language is enough. No one in the Bible is saved by believing something only theologians can understand. People get nourishment whether they understand theories of nutrition or not.

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11. Once again, is “the Gospel” just the Penal Substitution theory of the atonement articulated in a particular manner?

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12. A basic rule on here is we don’t evangelize each other. I didn’t post about the salvation of commenters. So please stop discussing that topic NOW.

    Thanks

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13. I agree that the doctrine of purgatory is a pernicious and unBiblical addition to the Gospel, is nowhere taught in scripture and undermines the work of Christ in salvation.

    I don’t believe it is anywhere close to a denial of the Gospel. It’s an error. Unless you believe you’re saved by perfect doctrine, then you have to believe that any of us can believe an error but still trust in Christ for salvation.

    The Catholic articulation of purgatory has changed radically recently. Recent statements on purgatory, such as in the CCC, are not much different from an evangelical understanding of final sanctification.

    Catholic doctrine emphasizes that purgatory is final elimination of the temporal punishment for sin. Temporal. I believe most evangelicals agree that sin has temporal consequences which even forgiven people endure.

    The classic, Pre-VII doctrine of purgatory is controlling, fearful doctrinal error. I agree with Luther completely on it. But it does not mean Catholics aren’t Christians. (Or that C.S. Lewis wasn’t a Christian.)

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14. Giovanni, your reply (as with most of Patrick’s earlier) is mean-spirited and illustrates the divide on this blog. The issue here is the Gospel and as I said much earlier, my fear is that the catholic church is losing their grasp on the Gospel. Instead of looking down your noses at us you should ask yourselves if your church truly practices the faith once delivered unto the saints. For you to admit you can’t wrap your head around what Christopher wrote is an all but open admission that you don’t understand what the Bible calls the Gospel. That’s not my interpretation of Scripture, it is the plain meaning of Scripture. To believe in a Person means to know Him, yet many of your comments and others I have read imply faith in something ro someone, but is it really the God of the Bible? You are right, even demons believe and shudder… so wouldn’t you like your belief to be biblical, not based on tradition alone? Christ’s death makes us pure… we are counted righteous by His sacrifice in our place… our faith is in Him, that He died for us and rose again… that’s why we don’t need to sacrifice Him again and again in the mass.

    Bill

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15. Christopher – I can’t even beggin to wrap my head around what you just said.

    If you believe that something that is unpure can enter heaven, or that you can hide things from God. Then by all means throw away Purgatory.

    “The understanding of the Bible?” You mean “your” understanding of the Bible.

    Also your assertion “I will enter Heaven as a believer in Him…” interesting because the Bible that you are so fund of making your own word, tells us that even Demons believe,,, you will have prime company as you enter Heaven.

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16. That should be “the atoning death *of* Christ,” in the first sentence.

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17. Michael,

    Isn’t the heart of the Gospel that Christians are counted righteous before God because of the perfect life and the atoning death on Christ, in their place, on the Cross? If this is so, how does the Catholic doctrine of purgatory not severely distort the the aforementioned teaching?

    Speaking as a former Catholic myself, in the RCC system of doctrine, purgatory is necessary for the “purification” of remaining sinfulness at the time of death, so that one may be purified and fit to enter into God’s presence in Heaven. The understanding of the Bible on this matter, however, is that Christ’s work on the Cross is not only finished but also *completely sufficient* on my behalf for me, as a Christian, to be counted as righteous before God, *as if I had the righteousness of Christ Himself.* In Biblical terms, it is because of Christ’s work that I will enter Heaven as a believer in Him– not because of Christ *and* my “purification” through purgatory.

    I won’t say that the doctrine of purgatory destroys the Gospel, but it does undermine it– and unlike the admitted and lamentable silliness and “majoring on minors” that one will find in many evangelical churches (including many churches within the SBC– I agree with you, as a “9 Marks-friendly” Baptist), purgatory is *official Catholic doctrine.*

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18. IMONK’S WIFE: I love you in the Lord :BIG HUG: I never met a Christian I didn’t like. I meet the sweetest people everywhere I go. I never ask what denomination they belong to. And they never ask the question of me. It just doesn’t come to mind as we share our love for our Lord.

    IMONK: Don’t focus on the yuks you just described. Spend all your energies spreading the love and wisdom you know to be found in all denominations. Lift up that love and wisdom. There is an ‘opportunity cost’ to everything we do. When we choose one thing…we must give up another that could be done in the same time slot. Time spent giving space to ignorant ideologies is time one cannot spend unifying the brethren in love.

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19. So rich is our Christian Faith, thank you Father Ernesto.

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20. DaveD below are some interesting quotes from the Apostolic Era. But before you read them, please do read the book of Revelation. In chapters 5 & 8 it points out that both the 24 elders and the angels hold in their hands the prayers of the saints, and they are the ones who offer them to God as incense. That is as good an image as any of the intercession of the saints and the angels.

    “That it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! The centurion then, seeing the strife excited by the Jews, placed the body in the midst of the fire, and consumed it. Accordingly, we afterwards took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels, and more purified than gold, and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together, as opportunity is allowed us, with joy and rejoicing, the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom, both in memory of those who have already finished their course, and for the exercising and preparation of those yet to walk in their steps.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 17,18.

    “[Appealing to the three companions of Daniel] Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom.” Hippolytus of Rome, On Daniel, 11:30 (A.D. 204).

    Clement of Alexandria – “In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

    “As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours.” Tertullian, The Crown, 3 (A.D. 211).

    Origen – But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels… as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).

    “Nor is that kind of title to glories in the case of Celerinus, our beloved, an unfamiliar and novel thing. He is advancing in the footsteps of his kindred; he rivals his parents and relations in equal honours of divine condescension. His grandmother, Celerina, was some time since crowned with martyrdom. Moreover, his paternal and maternal uncles, Laurentius and Egnatius, who themselves also were once warring in the camps of the world, but were true and spiritual soldiers of God, casting down the devil by the confession of Christ, merited palms and crowns from the Lord by their illustrious passion. We always offer sacrifices for them, as you remember, as often as we celebrate the passions and days of the martyrs in the annual commemoration. Nor could he, therefore, be degenerate and inferior whom this family dignity and a generous nobility provoked, by domestic examples of virtue and faith. But if in a worldly family it is a matter of heraldry and of praise to be a patrician, of bow much greater praise and honour is it to become of noble rank in the celestial heraldry! I cannot tell whom I should call more blessed,–whether those ancestors, for a posterity so illustrious, or him, for an origin so glorious. So equally between them does the divine condescension flow, and pass to and fro, that, just as the dignity of their offspring brightens their crown, so the sublimity of his ancestry illuminates his glory.” Cyprian, To Clergy and People, Epistle 33(39):3 (A.D. 250).

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21. Jeremy

    I’d rather be sad about the SBC rather than cynical. I find it very saddening to see a group that I used to be glad to be a member losing some of the things that made it good. Losing its focus on reaching the unbeliever, respecting the rights of individual churches to make decisions about who is to lead them, etc. I have cried out to God for these people, my brothers and sisters.

    Joe (I believe) you said that our Catholic devotion to Mary looks like worship, even though we keep trying to tell you that it isn’t. How can you tell the difference between wine and grape juice, just by looking at the liquids? But, if you have experienced both with your senses you can tell.

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22. Beth,
    Funny you should mention Vancouver — I’ve met SBC missionaries, from down south, in our fair city. Financed with US dollars, heading home now and then to give slide shows (I’m guessing it’d go something like “…here we tried the strange local food they call ‘sushi'”), and generally treating a bustling urban center, with churches of all sorts, like a forgotten corner of the 10/40 window.

    It is really, really, hard not to be cynical about a denomination that seems so willfully misinformed. Why should we be surprised with a SBC that discounts Roman Catholics when even their closest Baptist kin don’t make the grade?

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23. Today is the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe and vision of St Juan Diego at Teypac. Second Marian feast this week.

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24. Virgen de Guadalupe. Heh. I told some Mexicans I know that I went to a monastery in Guadalupe, Spain with a shrine of sorts to the BVM. They said it wasn’t the real one. I told them it predated the vision in Mexico by 200 years. Hilarity did NOT ensue.

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25. “Catholic teaching is, in fact, that Mary “was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.” (New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia) Born without sin? Lived a life without sin? Yet repeatedly the Bible teaches that only God is without sin. How is ascribing a trait reserved for the triune God to a human, anything other than a) worship and b) false?”

    Weren’t Adam and Eve born without sin? So such a trait is not reserved for God alone. Of course only God knows the righteous and God is the source of all good but how many folk are “hailed” by Archangels in the Bible? It’s a singular moment that should give a Bible focused person pause. To Catholics Mary is the pinnacle of creation , the purified vessel meant to carry the bread of life just like ancient Jews had purified vessels carry sacrifices of grain (Isiah don’t remember the exact verse). She is likened to the Ark of the covenant that houses the law and now the word made flesh. There’s a clear distinction between the decorated treasure chest (Mary) and the treasure (Christ).

    Certainly I would not expect y’all to become Marian in outlook but it’s common sense not to to insult someones mother and then call yourself their friend.
    Of all the fights Protestants and Catholic battle over
    this one is especially sensitive. It’s the mark of someone who’d rather argue than disagree reasonably. Michael has disagreed on Mary without giving offense, it can be done, but it takes that respect Father Ernesto mentioned. If you’re sincerely interested in being heard on the merits it’s necessary to deliver the critique gently with charity.

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26. DaveD some of the words you are using are at the core of the problem of the communication that we are having.

    I am going to ignore the parts in which you call prayer to saints the same as prayer to God. This is simply not true and your analogy is not accurate.

    You use the word “unsaved” in order to qualify the Catholic attitude towards Protestants. Let me beggin by saying that as far as the “unsaved” go as far as the Church is concerned it does not just apply to Protestants but also Catholics and not just laymen but also clerics and the Pope him self will tell you that he remains “unsaved.”

    Just because I am a member of the Catholic Church does not make me “saved.” Just because you are Protestant does not make you “unsaved.”

    “There is no salvation outside the Church.”

    Remains true, does that mean that Protestants will not be saved? No, we are saved by Grace alone (although we differ on what that means) Man can do nothing on his own to save him self, so therefore salvation is a gift of God. However if you are saved meaning in Heaven praying to God and part of beatific vision in that case you will have been joined to the Body of Christ, which is the Church.

    “There is no salvation outside the Church.”

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27. Bill, please. Anybody can tell I’m not an old-school, hardcore, Catholic-or-die type. Anybody can ALSO tell that I have zero patience for short-sighted Protestants calling me as a Catholic, or my Peruvian family as a group, ‘unreached’. I don’t come to your house and tell you that your kids are lost – don’t come to mine with that. I make no apologies for letting you know where I, personally stand, and I’m definitely not going to sugar-coat my replies to your suspicions and condescensions back for you.

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28. Patrick lynch: Wow. That was just..wow. How honest of you. How certain of your truth you are that you need to edit my words like a porno edited to run on the Disney channel to make any sort of a point. I especially find it amusing since you have repeatedly said we are on two different teams, yet the logical conclusion of that way of thinking escapes you.

    Jenny, I know what the “climbing a tree” was a reference to. I never went to Sunday School. I was a heathen for the first 18 years of my life (18 years and just shy of one month to be exact) and have now been a Christian for the second 18 years of my life. Jesus abides in all believers, Imonk even did a several post series on it. Fasting is commanded by the Lord, at least indirectly. Any other form of self flagelation or abuse as a religious practice is not.

    PatrickW: I appreciate you taking the time to actually bring forth the Catholic arguments for the beliefs instead of just slinging insults and ingnoring anything sticky. I honestly do. I’ve heard them before, mostly.

    I understand that to a Catholic there is a difference between worship and veneration. While they look like the same thing, I am told they are different because of some teaching. But I can call adultery “getting a massage” all I want but in the end, it’s still adultery.

    Catholic teaching is, in fact, that Mary “was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin.” (New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia) Born without sin? Lived a life without sin? Yet repeatedly the Bible teaches that only God is without sin. How is ascribing a trait reserved for the triune God to a human, anything other than a) worship and b) false?

    Believers have the righteousness of Christ (Romans 3:22-25, Phl 3:9, Romans 5:17) so those who are dead in Christ are no more righteous than I, for they can not be more righteous than Jesus.

    Simply the OT forbade speaking to the dead. I respect Fr. Ernesto and enjoy reading his insights. However, the gymnastics one has to do, with a lot of “reading between the lines” to arrive at the idea that the command has somehow changed is clear.

    When Jesus was asked to teach his disciples how to pray, did he begin “Abraham, who art in heaven”? You can avoid the point with the idea that there were no “saints” in heaven yet to pray to. Jesus still taught to go directly to the Father. The writer of Hebrews says to come boldy before the throne of grace. Everytime prayer is mentioned in the NT it is directed to God. Not angels. Not dead folks. Not a statue. No where, EVER in the NT or other Apostolic Era (33-150 ad)writings that I am aware of is it taught to pray to dead people to get them to pray for you.

    Again, my point was not to discuss Catholicism. My point was that if it’s wrong for one side to call the other unsaved, isn’t it as wrong for the other to return the favor. To try to illustrate that point I have pointed out areas where the RCC might not want to throw stones because they have REALLY big, glaring windows in their house. I quoted the words of Pope’s and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith…which was ignored or they still insisted that even though the RCC rule book said so, the RCC didn’t really believe that. The response has mostly been to just label me a catholic basher and to shamelessly twist my words to avoid the point.

    I’m done on this one, I never wanted to argue the merits of Catholicism vs. Prostestantism. I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of calling one of two sides doing the same thing “bigotry”.

    DD

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29. John, thanks for your comments on Patrick’s replies… I thought it was interesting that we were all prideful hypocrites but he could say the very same things since he is in the “true” church.

    I am glad to know that all of us are concerning ourselves with the issue of what the Gospel is and what it isn’t. I believe this pleases God that His people are concerned with His Word.

    imonk, hats off to a great blog… and I’ll throw a nice suggestion for a future blog and ask if you are you of the beer-drinking Baptist variety…? If so, I’ll buy you a nice Belgian Trappist Ale if I’m ever near Oneida, KY. That’s a beautiful place to live.

    Bill

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30. “Catholics: Renounce your terrible alliance with the Mexican culture and be like us American fundamentalists. And be sure to watch out for the 50 foot flag hanging in our sanctuary.”

    Beautiful.

    My experience has been that some churches form their own (peculiar and insular) culture, which makes them distinct from the people they presume to reach. Often it’s the level-headed voices within these churches that suggest maybe a little accomodation with the outside culture is necessary. But such open-minded people do not fare well.

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31. If I hear one more person criticize group A for being wrapped up in the culture as if they are somehow miraculously exempt from being wrapped up in the culture, I’m going to put a pencil in my eye.

    “Catholics: Renounce your terrible alliance with the Mexican culture and be like us American fundamentalists. And be sure to watch out for the 50 foot flag hanging in our sanctuary.”

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32. I agree with you Father Ernesto and that is why I call you Father Ernesto and not just Ernesto or Mr. or Sir. Your orders are valid and so are your sacraments, though we may disagree on who is wrong and who is right. The respect is there and the love is there.

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33. Fr. Ernesto – I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. We need to understand that our denominational differences won’t keep us out of heaven as long as we’re following the Gospels with our faith in Jesus Christ. People can say that they run into alot of ex Catholics or ex Protestants that say they never really heard the Scriptures presented but obviously that goes for all sides, that is a common shared problem in the churches of all denominations.

    You could respectfully tell me that I can only live fully as a Christian in the Orthodox tradtion while I could respectfully say that you can only fully live a Christian life as a Lutheran. I think it boils down to a choice, what denomination do you feel best presents the Gospels, the message about our faith?

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34. Johnb5200: “Let’s use the Catechism as the measuring stick”

    I would rather stick to using the cathechism as it was intended; as more of a flashlight. Luckily Jesus Christ is the only real “measuring stick” plus judge and jury in the life of any Christian.

    I was first Graced with the gospel of Christ, repented, and committed my life to him 8 years ago; and I was baptized in a community of Catholic Christians. I’m a well educated American that has had the benefit of unlimited access to books, computers, and a variety of learning tools. I have read the Holy Bible almost every day since I became a Christian, and for most of the past 8 years have seriously studied the Catechism of The Catholic Church and willfully follow it’s teachings the best I can. For the past 4 years I’ve been teaching a catechism class to junior high students, and though not easy it is a calling I approach with a grave sense of responsibility. I’ve also been blessed/enlightened by reading and studying a number of other non-catholic/evangelical books and online resources during that time period. (imonk is one of the tops on my list)

    I have faith in the Bible and the catechism, but I don’t understand it all (probably don’t even get to that 50% noted earlier). I’m at peace with not understanding or knowing all of what’s in those books that were written or taught by much smarter people than me hundreds of years ago; because I do know Jesus Christ.

    I’m also a pro-life republican that shoots guns once in a blue moon. What else do I need to know to get saved and be a real Christian?

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35. I’m getting a kick out of Mr. Patrick Lynch’s statements. He has said this:

    “Ask God to remove the plank lodged in your eye so you can see the purpose more clearly.”

    And this:

    “If you want to keep your private judgments that Catholics are Being Lied To or that we worship Mary or whatever, you can at least do what Jesus told you to do and keep them PRIVATE. Your haunted reservations about our church aren’t going to get you any ‘Amens’ around here.”

    But, he has also said these:

    “Bill, developing some hesitation might be in your best interest. In other circles, we call that kind of thing “humility”.”

    “This has been a pretty good discussion so far; don’t wiener it up with statements like this..”

    “The irony is suffocating – please, give up this lame position before you die?”

    “JohnB, lets use common sense as a measuring stick.”

    “I’m glad you want to teach people about the Bible; that’s high and noble and God will love you for it – at least as much as He loves Pharisees. Keep that in mind.”

    “Yeah, Dave. You tell the world why you’re mad.”

    These are just a few. But the contradictions are striking.

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36. Giovanni, the mutual excommunications were lifted in the 1960’s. Romans are part of the Church just theologically mistaken on some issues; Romans see us Orthodox as being schismatic. However, we visit each other regularly because we now say those words to each other without “heat” in our words. That is called progress. And, yes, a Catholic priest who becomes Orthodox is not re-ordained.

    Brad, today is the day of the Virgin of Guadalupe. If you read the story behind her, you will see that Jesus was not simply added to the pantheon, in fact, Jesus was resisted strongly by the Aztecs. But, here is a question. Is every adoption of a cultural practice syncretism? If so, shame on every Christian who uses a Christmas tree, decorates Easter Eggs, burns a Yule Log (that’s for you English), etc. Even the shape of our churches conforms to the preferred shape for a building in our culture. The question with syncretism is whether it is a pathological adoption of a cultural practice.

    Someone said the Old Testament forbade praying to the dead. I agree. But, something has changed. The New Testament said that Jesus went down to those being held, defeated Satan, and set them free. To say it in an old fashioned way, He harrowed hell. Then he led a victory procession to heaven (see Colossians). The quotes from Revelation picture a situation different than that in the Old Testament. The Old Testament believer was not yet in the presence of God. He/she now is because Christ harrowed hell. And, thus, Revelation pictures them as being aware of what is happening here and participating in the prayers and worship of heaven in a way that was not true in the Old Testament. Situation changed, and the rule changed.

    Because the truth is important we do, often, try to convert each other. Because the Christian life is important, we do try to correct the errors found in each other’s groups. However, that is different than declaring each other not to be Christian. We tried that in the Middle Ages in the West and it led to some horrible results. I am not Roman Catholic, but I deeply appreciate the clear effort of Vatican Council II to differentiate between what is true about the Church, about the Christian life, about various themes, while at the same time recognizing openly that many will be saved who are not and have never been Roman Catholics.

    We need to be able to separate the two. I have no problem believing that almost all of you on this discussion will be saved, maybe even all. But, I also have no problem trying to convince you, in a respectful manner that honors your dignity as a person created in the image of God, that you need to become Orthodox so that you can lead a full Christian life. The key is, “in a respectful manner that honors your dignity as a person created in the image of God.”

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37. think it is a little different when a culture, such as the various Aztec tribes in Mexico (which don’t even speak Spanish BTW) take Jesus and add Him to their pantheon of gods. — Brad Haggard

    Funny…

    A full third of my parish (St Boniface, Anaheim) is Mexican in my parish, and I’ve never seen (or heard of) Fr Marquez (or Bishop Soto when he was in residence) cutting out human hearts to feed Lord Left-hand Hummingbird or Lord Smoking Mirror…

    And the vestments and altarcloths there don’t include freshly-flayed human skin (not even at Easter Vigil High Mass)…

    Our copy of the Virgin of Guadalupe doesn’t show her headless with two red rattlesnakes sprouting from her neck, and a necklace and belt of human skulls and hands…

    Where are those Aztec gods you say Mexican Catholics bow to? The ones atop the Great Pyramid of Tenochtitlan with blood waterfalling down the stairways? The ones whose Nahuatl names “sound like Laughter in Hell” (Chesterton)? The ones that the subject tribes of the Mexica fled for the better deal they got with Christ, a god who sacrificed himself so that they wouldn’t need to?

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38. When you’re full of Holiness, you don’t do stuff like visit Jesus at the tomb or climb trees to get a look at Him. Jesus left you a manual. Your job is to go around correctly applying the words in the manual to the lives of other people. IF you’re sure you said your Sinner’s Prayer right, anything you say to people is going to be guided by the Spirit. Don’t worry if the people you run into have their own copies of the manual – Jesus doesn’t speak through them, he speaks through You. You’ve got it right.

    Just act as you would normally act around people who are hopelessly wrong and need your input more than they could ever know. That’s your ordination – it’s how everyone will know you’re full of Holiness. — Patrick Lynch

    Especially because you’re so Holier Than Everyone Else, i.e. “Can You Top This?”

    Just like Apostle Marvin’s Big Team in the Reverse-Rapture spoof A Pagan’s Nightmare.

    Or the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican.

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39. Why is everyone picking on the Catholics? — BW

    Because the Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648 some STILL haven’t gotten the news.

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40. DaveD –

    James 5:16 tells us to support each other in prayer, and that the prayer of a righteous man is a powerful thing. If I asked you to pray for me because I am having a problem, would you do it? I suspect so, as I would for you.

    Praying for each other is a good thing, but neither of us is more righteous than the people who are already in heaven. They are perfectly united with Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Until such time as we join them, their prayers are even more powerful than ours.

    Likewise, the woman who bore Christ in her womb and stood by Him at the Cross is not simply a “long dead Jewish woman.” Luke 1:48 tells us all generations will call her blessed. Surely you will agree that “all generations” includes us.

    When Catholics pray to Mary and the saints, we are not worshiping them. We are asking them to intercede on our behalf, just as Christians still on Earth do for each other.

    Indeed, in Revelation 5:8 we see these prayers being delivered to the throne of God by the elders already in heaven. In Revelation 8:3-4 we see an angel bringing prayers to God as well. Look at Psalms, too: many of those prayers are directed, not to God, but to angels and heavenly hosts. Psalm 103:20-21 is a good example.

    The early Christians clearly understood this. Visit the catacombs in Rome and you will see thousands of inscriptions on graves of people asking the departed to pray for them. There’s nothing idolatrous or un-biblical about it. Whoever put these ideas into your head was sadly misinformed.

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41. Hey, Giovanni, I think you may have misunderstood me a little. I wasn’t making a categorical statement on all conquest mission activity, but that there are some areas (I have seen them) in which this is the case. At any rate, I’d still like a lead on some of those resources.

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42. Forgive my ignorance, Giovanni. Can you recommend some good books on that subject? (I need it if I’m going to be more effective down there.)

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43. Haggard you realy need to read up on the history of the Christian convertion of Mexico.

    If you realy think that Christian natives in Mexico realy just add Jesus to their patheon of gods then you realy need to read up.

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44. True repentance is the medication, while excommunication is the prescription.

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45. iMonk,

    I wasn’t accusing you of any of those things earlier, I just thought that maybe you didn’t understand the situation “on the ground” in Latin America. From what I hear you have a clear commitment to the Jesus and the Bible.

    I guess it is a little to easy to take shots at the SBC sometimes, though. My own denomination, Independent Christian/Church of Christ, is pretty bad about “synchretizing” certain cultural elements as NT prescriptions. Particularly, we have in most of our churches a “board” (congress) comprised of “elders” (senate) and “deacons” (house). The politics that grow from that system have hurt many churches.

    I think it is a little different when a culture, such as the various Aztec tribes in Mexico (which don’t even speak Spanish BTW) take Jesus and add Him to their pantheon of gods. Those people need evangelization, the former groups need edification and discipleship (and that is also what I’d say to Catholic brothers who follow Jesus). It’s a small distinction, but I think its worth pointing out.

    Anyway, good article and great site. I’m looking forward to much more great content and discussion.

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46. That said, being in need of repentance is not the same as being excommunicated – big difference.

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47. iMonk,

    I agree. Let’s evangelize the evangelicals too.

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48. JohnB5200,

    Missing weekly Mass for a frivolous reason is a mortal sin for a Catholic. Reception of Communion and confession (the sacraments) is only required 1 time/ year.

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49. Johnb5200

    >…Even by the standards of Catechism, the average Catholic is out of communion and should be considered a mission field.

    Be careful where you’re pointing that gun. Several hundred million evangelicals (and about 10 million Southern Baptists) are in your sights.

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50. Patrick –

    I am glad to learn that Mass is only “strongly recommended” and not an essential sacrament.

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51. Regarding the accusation that Catholicism doesn’t preach the Gospel, I find myself wondering what the definition of “the Gospel” is in the eyes of the one making the accusation.

    Every time I’ve gone to Mass with my family and friends (or occationally by myself), I’ve heard/seen the Gospel in a way that is often sadly absent at my own (at the time) church. Not only is the entire liturgy of the Eucharist centered around the Gospel story of atonement and redemption through Jesus’ sacrifice, but almost every sermon has the story of Jesus (based on the Gospel reading for the day) at it’s foundation!

    This was especially true at my ex-girlfriend’s church with their new and zealous ex-cop priest who has a reputation for Baptist-like preaching (in the words of one parishoner), but it was also true (at the other extreme) with the ancient monseignor’s 5-minute thursday night homily at the parish closest to my home.

    I understand that different folks have different experiences. But maybe that’s WHY we have a variety of denominations/expressions of the faith: to suit our variety of needs and experiences. I think it’s a mark of maturity to be able to recognize the not everyone should be expected to think/respond/etc the same way. I’m reminded of a quote I heard the other day (I don’t remember who was being quoted): “If there’s the remotest possibility that I will be sharing a bunk with someone in Heaven, I should be able to fellowship with him here on Earth.”

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52. Yes, I know of what you speak Bill. We have an influx of immigrants from South America coming up north to work the dairy farms. I have heard of some whom have continued the practice of pilgrimaging on their knees for miles and miles on country roads to a rural shrine in our county.

    I REFUSE to be allow myself to be so cynical towards every Hispanic Catholic knee-walker and judge their interior motives and not believe they are excercising a genuine faith in God (yes, they pray) in a very different cultural manner than we Americans are accustomed to.

    We just get in our cars on Sunday and go.

    To throw out that all believers feel God is beholden to them because of this act of devotion from the testimony of one individual is a sad stereotype. I also understand this practice is a Marian devotion (certianly will occur in mass numbers this very day) and respect it greatly yet understand we will most likely disagree on how that relates to our relationship with Jesus Christ.

    DaveD
    “Climbing a tree” refers to Zachias. You must have not had a lot of fun in Sunday school? “Zachias was a wee little man and a wee little man was he…”

    We Catholics DO believe Jesus is with us in the Blessed Sacrament so walking to our sanctuary early in the morning to be with Him, for us Catholics, is very appropriate and incredibly laudable.

    Memphis Aggie, good post.

    JB

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53. DaveD, you said:

    “I just don’t understand why… I’m not allowed to… make them feel bad.”

    “My original point was simple: You have no right to be bent out of shape…”

    “I was then told that’s not what they believe… I was told that any differences of doctrine were… certainly nothing to question the “reached”-ness of a class of people.”

    “So one of us has to be wrong.. and therefore “unsaved”.”

    Yeah, Dave. You tell the world why you’re mad.

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54. Radagast,

    I agree with your point. After all, that’s one of the BIGGEST flaws in the American Protestant church is the “us four and no more” mindset.

    Faith alone or faith plus works? I believe the Bible teaches both…or more exactly that faith that is capable of saving DOES things; it is active not merely a mental assent. Transubstantiantion. I think it’s weird but I don’t think the belief matters one way or another. I could go on about the things in the RCC that I disagree with but in no way cause me to question whether they are “reached” or not. I fully believe that there are Christians in the RCC that will be in heaven and will really honk off some Pentecostals and Baptists by being there…but the Baptists will already be upset by the tongue-talkers being there. 🙂 I also recognize that for around a 1200 years, the “church” WAS the Catholic Church so I have some respect for the tradition.

    I also believe that there is a big difference between individuals and denominations. The denomination’s teaching may be wrong, even alarming, but that does not mean that any given person from that denomination is wrong. Does it increase the chances, yes. Does it mean everybody in the pew is automatically wrong? Certainly no.

    I take shots at Protestants all the time where their teachings stray from the Bible, or against the Bible, even in some unimportant gray areas.

    However, there are SOME things that, regardless of who is doing them, raises some red flags to me. Praying to anyone or anything other than God is one of those things. In fact, the Bible specifically says NOT to talk to the dead. Worshipping anyone other than the Triune God raises a red flag, even if those doing it don’t call it worship. I don’t care if it’s a sports team, money, Mary, or a buffet.

    I just don’t understand why it’s acceptable to say that Prosperity Preachers are worshipping something other than the true God and are idolators but I can’t say the same thing about folks who pray to a long dead Jewish woman. Or, I’m not allowed to say it about either of them because it might make them feel bad.

    My original point was simple: You have no right to be bent out of shape by Protestants considering Catholics “unreached” unless you are equally bent out of shape because the RCC considers Protestants “unreached”. I was then told that’s not what they believe..so I produced quotes from CURRENT and past RCC teachings. That was ignored and I was told that any differences in doctrine were inconsequential, certainly nothing to question the “reached”-ness of a class of people.

    One particular Catholic supporter, while denying that they teach we are unsaved, consistantly has stated that we are, in fact, TWO bodies. This brings us to the point that there is ONE body in Christ. So one of us has to be wrong according to the “our team/your team” supporter and therefore “unsaved”.

    DD

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55. Quite a thread. First differences between the faiths matter. To say all faiths are the same is the equivalent of saying all differences between them are unimportant. This is disrespectful of the thought process and struggle with conscience that created the split, although disrespect is generally not intended. This indifferentism is an oversimplification generally born out of a desire for unity. Our differences are real and they matter or we could easily switch denominations. Clearly Michael is a faithful Protestant with no desire to become RCC so its absurd to argue that he is proposing that all faiths are equal.

    If we are Christians then we seek to imitate the behavior Christ and specifically His meekness and great charity. When we declare ourselves as sinners undeserving of grace we recognize our inability to correctly grasp the truth by ourselves. We require the gift of faith to remove the scales from our eyes and to see the Truth, which always surprises. Therefore when we meet member of another faith who disagrees with us yet claims to love Christ and be a Christian we should respectful withhold judgment and in recognition of our own limitations show respect. The chastised sinner should remember his faults and be slow to speak. If speech is necessary, because these issue do matter, then it must be offered in the manner which is most likely to help the listener not when it suits our own ego to offer it (I know this fault too well). In other words offer critiques respectfully gently and with patience in it’s proper time and only if you are the right person to do so.

    The view on this thread is very Protestant because it’s focused on the Gospels. This is not what being a Catholic is about. Being Catholic is about the Eucharist and the sacraments. The Bible is a crucial guide but is not central. What ex-Catholics remember is true, to varying degrees the Bible is not the main focus. The real presence, the reception and worship of Christ in Holy Communion: these are at the core of Catholicism and explicitly define the Church. The limits of valid Eucharist are the limits of the Church in Catholic understanding. Although John Paul II has made it clear that the graces of God go beyond the visible limits of the Church, in ways that surprise us that we do not fully understand – as He as always done.

    None of this has much to do with South America. However I think there are several important lessons in Catholicism in these countries where religion has been mixed up with politics and tainted. Many Catholics in South America are Cinos (Catholic in name only). They are not committed to their declared faith, rather it’s a cultural inheritance. We know this from low vocation rates (number of new priests) and low regular attendance at Mass. Perhaps for a faithless “Catholic” to becoming a believing Protestant is a real improvement because presumably they would now receive those mysterious graces JPII alluded to and reform his life in a Christian manner. Certainly any faithful Catholic would prefer that the wayward remain in the Church where the bread of life is found. We naturally prefer for the lost within our walls to repent and confess. However to remain faithless and to continue to receive communion is to eat your own condemnation. If for that person real repentance is only possible by leaving home then perhaps that is the best road to travel, a necessary detour.

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56. Why is everyone picking on the Catholics?

    I am a Lutheran and have nothing but love and respect for my Catholic brothers. I always thought a Christian was someone who put their faith in Christ, that His suffering, death, and resurrection substituted that which I could never deliver. That the only God’s Only Son was what it was all about. That my faith in Him would deliver me. I never counted out anyone for the “extras” like the honoring of saints or perhaps praise and worship festivals, that operate on the same principles as a rock concert, on the Protestant side?

    People are quoting Luther, one of my heroes. But Luther originally had never intended leaving the Catholic Church. He just wanted to change a few things. He never said it was wrong to honor and depict the saints. Radical reformers like Muntzer were going around burning up Germany.

    All Luther meant was that when the extras get in the way of God, of the Message of Christ, that’s when it becomes a problem.

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57. Bill, feel free to discuss Catholics all you want – just as long as you keep an eye on the fact that Catholics don’t subscribe and aren’t accountable to American Protestant theological categories and normative constructs – and we don’t appreciate the idle critique to the effect that ‘Catholics don’t preach the Gospel’.

    We say we don’t worship Mary, we don’t worship Mary – that’s it. Insisting otherwise or doubting our sincerity on things like that, or darkly speculating that Catholics have no idea about the Gospel retards conversation. Lets not get retarded.

    Provincial Catholic culture (be it Peruvian or elsewhere) is hard for a lot of Protestants to understand or trust – I understand that, but I have to insist that Protestants enthusiastic to ‘teach’ our people check themselves and accept that they should speak last, if at all, on our parish life, precisely because the Catholic church makes so little sense to them to begin with.

    Bill, if you are seriously quoting Scripture at me about my church being “a different Gospel”, I’m throwing the Book at you.

    Baptists are welcome at the table – but if you act off, throwing Scripture impetuously around at people like we’re brand new in this, you’ll be sat down at the Kid’s Table. This is basic.

    I’m glad you want to teach people about the Bible; that’s high and noble and God will love you for it – at least as much as He loves Pharisees. Keep that in mind.

    And no, walking on your knees while praying shouldn’t sensibly obligate God to do anything, any more than fasting should – but fasting is everywhere in the Bible. If you can tell me why God values one type of discomfort over another, I’ll join your church.

    DaveD, if the point you understand is, “quit trying to convert Catholics to Protestantism as if you have a monopoly on Jesus and we never met the guy”, then by all means, take it and run with it. If you have Pauline letters to quote in some reply to justify theological busybodies looking down their noses at pidgin Catholic faith in places they’re not even from, I refer you again to Jesus.

    This isn’t a tough thing; it’s just a basic courtesy.

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58. Dave and Bill,

    Catholics are easy targets – because there are so many of us around. And because of that you can pick out what is peculiar to you (veneration of saints and the like) and you can say – hey, look what those guys are doing, it’s wrong.

    So now imagine that God has taken all the Catholics away. If there are enough Orthodox around you can focus on them and say – hey, look what those guys are doing, it’s wrong.
    Now we imagine they are gone, or have all been “reached”. Next will be the Lutherans and Anglicans who still focus on sacraments and infant baptism… and those Pentacostals (substitute Baptist in there if you are pentacostal) and don’t get me started on those calvinists…

    Do you understand what I am saying here, all these groups do not agree with your individualistic view of the Gospel. – it’s easy to pick out Catholics exclusively because we have a Catachism you can point to. But there are other faith traditions withing you midst that you may find you don’t agree with either.

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59. Jenny, the particular experience I was refering to earlier about walking on knees was a popular South American talk show host who walked 40 km on his knees from Buenos Aires to Lujan to ask the virgin Mary that his soccer team would win the championship that year. I don’t think he was really interested in the Master… more interested in his team winning so he got his investment back.

    Isn’t the whole nature of faith… believing? Isn’t the walking on knees a work that you think obligates God to answer your prayer? What is belief if we are not believing in a Person? What is believing a person if we are wrong? For example… what if you told me you met my son and thought he was a nice boy. You say, he’s tall, has blond hair, plays the trumpet… But I reply, my son is short, has dark hair, and plays no musical instrument… Did you really meet him? So doctrine does matter… the RCC would surely agree with that. The question is which doctrine is biblical… what is the Gospel…

    Patrick, you seem to have a snippy attitude in your replies… I’m surprised to learn I’m on the outside in your opinion as you so clearly indicate with your ALL BOLDS… and I’m not saying my “side” is the only one that counts. I know I’m not Luther before a council… I’m a simple pastor with no aspirations other than to study the Bible, point people to Christ (not my church or denomination), and love people of all types and varieties. This isn’t us versus them… to me it’s about all of us making sure we have the Gospel right.

    Am I not allowed to discuss Catholics? If you consider Baptists to be part of the Body of Christ, then don’t we have a place at your table? Or are we the ones you see as cut off, not a true church, as your current pope believes?

    Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel–

    Bill

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60. “I don’t want to call a Christian a non-Christian because I am ignorant or because they are in error on some matter.”

    At least concerning gray areas. There are certain core areas where, yes, if a person or a system doesn’t believe that I do wonder.

    “You don’t have to say it the same way I do or belong to my church to belong to Jesus.”

    On side issues, I would agree. On core issues, such as who is the mediator between God and man,I will disagree whole heartedly.

    “I also believe scripture when it tells me that I should not judge as if I were God, which is what makes me quite nervous about saying the apostles’ creed with someone and then saying they are damned because I don’t like what someone says in a theology book they’ve never read.”

    Folks like Patrick and you are using the opposite tack, Michael. You both proclaim that Catholics DON’T believe or practice things that virtually everyone who has had extended contact with an RC sees them doing, using the argument it isn’t in some OFFICIAL book or another. Or it was in a book but they don’t REALLY believe that book anymore. I know this situation is close to home and I am really trying not to offend anybody here but….

    I’m sorry but the RCC promotes and pratices things that are so common that they have become the stereotype of what a good Catholic does and then some on this board simply argue that those belief’s aren’t OFFICIAL or not in his particular diocese. Sure evangelicals do this too but are all errors the same? Ancestor worship (praying to/venerating the saints) and having an alter call are on the same level? Because I believe in altar calls or the sinner’s prayer I can’t point out that praying to anyone other than the Most High God seeking blessing is probably what the First Commandment is talking about??? Or I’m supposed to ignore it because Prosperity preachers exist?

    Patrick: “And they’re OUR community, not yours.” Proving again what the Catholic guy told me years ago…we’re two separate teams not one body. Way to prove a point.

    “When you’re full of Holiness, you don’t do stuff like visit Jesus at the tomb or climb trees to get a look at Him.” What an arrogant statement. Walking on your knees for 40 clicks isn’t “seeing Jesus at the tomb”. Getting crucified on Easter isn’t “climbing trees to get a look at him” it’s sheer religious dogma. Have you tried flogging yourself so you can “touch the hem of his garment”?

    Let me make this clear…We can’t visit Jesus at the tomb because he ISN’T THERE. He left 2000 years ago. I can’t climb a tree to get a better look at him because he’s sitting at the right hand of the Father in HEAVEN..it would have to be a pretty tall tree or capable of planar travel. All I have at my disposal to see, find, touch Jesus is the written teachings of the people closest to him, some of the writings of people close to them, and the Holy Spirit. Praying every step of a church down the road from me on Good Friday doesn’t get me one step closer to that goal.

    Forgive me if I offend anyone.

    DD

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61. JohnB5200

    I guess if you look at running christianity like a business and you are looking at your potential market them Catholics are good for the picking. And if you live close to New York so are them Jews. And if you live close to Detroit those Muslims are ripe too. And I bet there’s a bunch of Orthodox out there as well (got ’em here in Pittsburgh) – and lets throw in some of those infant baptism types, those lost protestants – like Lutheranas and Anglicans and Calvinists – look like they are all good fodder – because its all about the numbers.

    That is what I seem to be hearing here. Remember the sower and the seed.

    I am ribbing you a bit and understand some folks over-enthusiasm here – just remember – you can always make statistics say whatever you need them to say to support your point.

    Peace.

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62. JohnB, lets use common sense as a measuring stick.

    If a lot of Catholics don’t do something that their church strongly recommends, are they:

    a.) SCHISMATIC
    b.) HERETICAL
    c.) UNREGENERATE
    d.) average

    Hint: your first instinct is wrong. And Your second and third. The answer is ‘d’.

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63. Christopher,

    I bet that happens in any faith tradition. People grow up in a faith tradition which their parents grew up in, go through the motions yet really don’t take time to understand. They are called cultural Catholics, or cultural Orthodox or cultural Lutherans…. you get my drift. Some of us grow up, take on our faith as our own and do the work. Others rebel against what came before and go to another faith tradition for that discovery. Still others are evangelized about the evils of their current faith tradition and instead of digging deeper to understand simply say “hey, that guy sounds right so its got to be right” – without doing the work. Many Catholics don’t do the work.

    Now many will tell me their opinions of the truth based on how they feel. Although I respect someone elses feelings and opinions, they are just that and nothing more unless some work has been done. I have more respect for those who have learned scripture, studied Church history, secular history surrounding scripture and writings of the early church fathers. If we still disagree I can respect that. But I give little credence, except my attention and love as another human, to those who have just picked up a bible and now know everything because they consider themselves devinely inspired by the Spirit.

    The bottom line is that there are unreached in every faith tradition, there are those caught up in secular culture. And there are many just going through the motions. Catholics don’t have the corner on this.

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64. Let’s use the Catechism as the measuring stick.

    Do you think most Catholics worldwide adhere to the Catechism? Just pick one issue, regular attendance at Mass. Skipping mass , except for a narrow range of reasons, is a mortal sin. Do you think that most Catholics do this? Stats clearly show they do not. http://cara.georgetown.edu/mattend.jpg

    Even by the standards of Catechism, the average Catholic is out of communion and should be considered a mission field.

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65. I’d like to see, from the Catechism of the RCC, one statement that- by itself- means Catholics are not Christians.

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66. I think of them what I think of the hundreds of people I’ve met in life who grew up in Protestantism and say they never heard the Gospel.

    I hear people say they go to Baptist churches and never hear the Gospel.

    Wait….that’s me. I hear Baptists preach every day and I’m lucky if I hear the Gospel twice a month. I hear law law law law law morality morality culture war culture war. God, and rarely Jesus.

    ANyone who wants to indict the RCC has got a mountain of Protestantism and evangelicalism to explain. Just because some of us are trained to feel better about our denomination (SBC) doesn’t mean we aren’t in shocking decline.

    In fact, if you want to hear the BIBLE read in large sections and the WORDS of the Gospel used in liturgy, I wouldn’t suggest the average Baptist church. You’ll hear a verse and a sermon against gay marriage.

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67. I’m a “de-converted Catholic,” and Baptist by conviction, who is currently a member of a non-denominational church in a fairly Roman Catholic part of the U.S.– Albuquerque, New Mexico. (Whew, that was a mouthful!) My roommate is a 45-year-old “cradle Catholic” who (he would claim, at least) came to truly know Christ and understand His Gospel in his late twenties, after many years of being out of the RCC. More than a few of my fellow church members are also cradle Catholics who would claim that they never heard the Gospel in the RCC. It may have been there in the Scripture readings, but it wasn’t explained or applied in the homilies.

    My question is, what are we to think of such people– former Catholics, many of them raised in the Church, who would themselves now say that the RCC does not preach and teach the Gospel? I know that there is much silliness and lack of Gospel preaching within evangelicalism today, including in many SBC churches (my own denomination by personal conviction, if not current church membership– long story). However, how many former evangelicals would make the blanket statement “Evangelicalism does not preach and teach the Gospel,” as my former Catholic friends say about the RCC?

    Were I and my fellow church members simply going to the wrong Catholic parishes? I don’t remember hearing the Gospel preached in the Church when I was a Catholic. I know that I hear it in my current church. Are there Catholic parishes that truly preach salvation by faith alone in Christ alone, with works being a *result* of that salvation, while not playing a role in *meriting* it? I would like to think that this is the case. I just haven’t seen it myself. I do think that there are Gospel-believing Catholics. I just hope that they have come to that place, at least partially, through the preaching and teaching of their Church (world-wide and local).

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68. This post is about reaching the unreached. I’m not sure we are going to reach folks this way.

    What is truth? “I’m not sure but it’s in the church/bible and I’m sure you don’t have it.” Without love we are clanging bells.

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69. There’s got to be some Nobel Prize in Mathematics awaiting the person who can graph out the exact moment a comment thread goes from thought-provoking to boiling a bunny crazy. Instantaneous mutation.

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70. Jenny,

    if you believe the ‘right’ theology, you can pretty much give up faith entirely and start, as Joe Blackmon does, loving people by arguing with them about their erroneous, damning beliefs. It’s called Holiness.

    When you’re full of Holiness, you don’t do stuff like visit Jesus at the tomb or climb trees to get a look at Him. Jesus left you a manual. Your job is to go around correctly applying the words in the manual to the lives of other people. IF you’re sure you said your Sinner’s Prayer right, anything you say to people is going to be guided by the Spirit. Don’t worry if the people you run into have their own copies of the manual – Jesus doesn’t speak through them, he speaks through You. You’ve got it right.

    Just act as you would normally act around people who are hopelessly wrong and need your input more than they could ever know. That’s your ordination – it’s how everyone will know you’re full of Holiness.

    True Christians blame God for Holiness.

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71. Hey, can’t we just all agree and put up a big ol’ map of Utah and maybe consider sending in a plethora of Nicene Creed confessin’ Trinitarians and overwhelm the Mormons by our love for one another ;O)

    Well wait, isn’t it strange that we would do well in learning a thing or two from their example of love? My Mormon friends and acquaintences are some of the most caring, generous individuals I’ve ever had the pleasure to know.

    Jenny

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72. Joe:

    You are well aware that you’re misrepresenting my position. To say that I accept someone as a Christian is not to say that I have no concept of truth.

    I just leave the infallible grasp of truth to the pope. I find it rather amusing among evangelicals.

    peace

    ms

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73. “What is the Christian purpose of walking on your knees 40 km just to hopefully have God answer your prayer?”

    Umm, sortof like sitting by the master’s table and waiting for scraps.

    Sortof like trying to make your way through a crowd just so you can touch the master’s garmet.

    Sortof like climbing a tree because you are too short to see the master walking by.

    Sortof like going to a tomb WAY early in the morning to annoint the master’s body.

    Sortof like … faith?!

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74. Fear of pumpkins?
    Otherwise, I concede that round to you. Many of the examples you gave reflect things done “from the stage” while Bill’s original examples reflect things done “in the trenches.” It’s one thing for me to do absurd things on the platform, but another thing if I hypnotize you to do strange things in the audience. But I’ll grant there’s some overlap on both lists.

    What must all this look like to those outside either faith circle? No wonder so many are pursuing a personal form of Christ following.

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75. iMonk wrote:

    I don’t want to call a Christian a non-Christian because I am ignorant or because they are in error on some matter. I am both and I plead the blood and the grace of God in the Gospel. You don’t have to say it the same way I do or belong to my church to belong to Jesus.

    I took a historic theology class at Wayland Baptist University a couple years back. The most important thing I took away from studying the various fights over the various pre-reformation heresies was the professor’s question that went something like this: “Is salvation a matter of doctrine or a matter of faith?” Sure, error and heresy should be corrected. But does that mean that we have the right to sit in judgement over a person’s faith and salvation? Hell no!

    Or, to quote Steve Brown, “50% of what I’m telling you is wrong. I’m just not sure which 50%.”

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76. imonk

    We’re not talking about being in error on “some matter”. To compare a “sinners prayer” to praying to Mary even as Mary is laughable. Did the “sinners prayer” save anybody? No. But if they prayed it with a repentant heart and truly confessed Jesus as their Lord and place their faith in Him would God save them? Um, yeah.

    That same bible that talks about “not judging” as you call it also says that if someone is in error we should love them enough to share the truth with them.

    Not everything is right. Not everything is true. Not every way leads to heaven.

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77. Imonk,

    have you ever done a blog on exactly what the Gospel is? I think that, for many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, “the Gospel” is the Penal Substitution theory of the atonement articulated precisely a certain way. This definition, would of course, exclude not only RCs and EOs, but many in the Wesleyan tradition as well (which some Calvinists don’t have a problem doing). Is the Gospel just a formula? Is it really just correctly articulating Penal Substitution, because when I hear accusations of “denying the Gospel,” that’s usually seems to be what it’s about.

    Personally, I think the Gospel’s a lot bigger than that. N.T. Wright has really expanded my thinking on this topic, but of course he’s an arch-heretic in the afformentioned circles.

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78. iMonk said – “Southern Baptists and Calvinists are just as error prone, and they are still Christians too.”

    Just as error prone? No doctrine/practice is closer to the truth than any other? Or further away?

    The sinner’s prayer, “Just as I am” and altar calls are on par with praying to Mary, transubstantiation and purgatory?

    You may be right. But if you are, then why resist becoming Catholic?

    If Catholic=Baptist=Lutheran=Anglican=Methodist
    =Pentecostal=Orthodox, then could you give me any reason not to swap my equally erroneous beliefs for those of Rome?

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79. Bill, developing some hesitation might be in your best interest. In other circles, we call that kind of thing “humility”.

    My church is not “the tares”. Even the Catholics who are caught up in one local fixation or another are not corrupt – they don’t need your arrogations and pretense to The Truth to ‘improve’ their relationship with God. That’s His business. And they’re OUR community, not yours. Not your bees.

    There’s no council for you to stand in front of. You’re not Luther. You’re just some guy who thinks he knows better.

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80. We all want to proclaim the truth from scripture. We all want to evangelize every person, starting with ourselves.

    I don’t want to call a Christian a non-Christian because I am ignorant or because they are in error on some matter. I am both and I plead the blood and the grace of God in the Gospel. You don’t have to say it the same way I do or belong to my church to belong to Jesus.

    I also believe scripture when it tells me that I should not judge as if I were God, which is what makes me quite nervous about saying the apostles’ creed with someone and then saying they are damned because I don’t like what someone says in a theology book they’ve never read.

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81. Joe, I completely agree with you. This entire discussion is about the Gospel.

    imonk, I’m new to the blog world but your post really struck a nerve and has had me thinking and praying all day. My theology is not perfect but I pray I am biblical in what I believe and growing in grace.

    Patrick, yes, there will be both wheat and tares in the world, but the whole point of this article is preaching Christ to the tares. Read 1 and 2 Timothy and see how important truth was to Paul. I have no hesitation in humbling and lovingly proclaiming truth from Scripture whenever I see error. As Luther said to the council, here I stand, God help me, I can do no other.

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82. Illegal Participation, Joe Blackmon is commenting on stuff he should be Googling. That’s 15 yards.

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83. Joe, since I’m married to a Catholic, I hope you’ll realize I’m going to actively moderate this kind of discussion.

    Praying to Mary as Mary, not as God is an error, but it doesn’t constitute not being a Christian.

    If you think evangelicals don’t have sacraments that they believe deliver salvation, then what can I say. What is the sinner’s prayer and walking the aisle?

    I’d like to introduce you to the Lutherans, Orthodox an Anglicans in the room as well. Are they lost? Church of CHrist? Are they lost? Starting to sound pretty Southern Baptist to me.

    C.S. Lewis and lots of other Protestants have believed in some version of purgatory. I consider it an error. I don’t think an error makes you a non-Christian.

    Southern Baptists and Calvinists are just as error prone, and they are still Christians too.

    Ever met a KJV onlyer?

    MS

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84. Ok, I’m confused—Catholics:
    a. pray to Mary
    b. believe that taking sacramentss give them salvation.
    c. believe in purgatory.

    All three are not only unbiblical but also demonstrate a fundamental misnderstanding of the truth of the gospel. Why on earth would you NOT consider them lost and seek to present the true gospel to them.

    It’s called the Great Commission.

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85. Bill:

    I occasionally hear Lutherans say they possess the perfect theology of the Gospel, but I’m not prepared to say that. I’m with N.T. Wright: Some of what I believe now is wrong. That’s what I believe about the RCC. The Gospel is there, in the midst of some stuff that’s wrong.

    “Calvin is Cool” no longer represents a lot of what I believe. That should be pretty clear to regular readers.

    Some of our understanding of the Gospel is at stake. I agree. There’s reasons I won’t be a Catholic. But I am not prepared to say that the Calvinistic Gospel is the only correct Gospel.

    ms

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86. Bill, before you let yourself get too concerned about how diluted you imagine the Gospel is over on our side of the pond, you need to consider the grace and sound advice that Jesus was offering us ALL when he told us to let the wheat grow next to the weeds and that God would sort it out.

    If you’re suspicious of our team, of ANY part of our people or our practices, that’s your problem, and I’m going to throw a flag on any “well-intentioned” Protestant attempt to come into our field and pull our weeds.

    If you want to keep your private judgments that Catholics are Being Lied To or that we worship Mary or whatever, you can at least do what Jesus told you to do and keep them PRIVATE. Your haunted reservations about our church aren’t going to get you any ‘Amens’ around here.

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87. Silly is the least of it.
    Buildings are filled every weekend with folks who have heard the illitereated 3 F’s of a happy and stress free work day but know ittle or nothing about the gospel of Christ.
    Revelation 3:15-21

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88. iMonk- I don’t think that Protestants have silly pratices of their faith, Altar Calls are somewhat on the edge for me personally but I still would not call them silly.

    The list you seem to be thinking of is a list of theological believe. In which case I would agree with you.

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89. IMonk: You missed these —

    Left Behind: the Comics
    Left Behind: the Movies
    Left Behind: the Kids (YA series, 40+ volumes)

    Smiling Cross
    “Harvest Festivals” (Just like Halloween, except…)
    Zion Births (very dangerous)
    Fred Phelps

    Mike Warnke
    Johana Michaelson
    Constance Cumby
    Angel feathers falling from Heaven
    Shaking Stacy
    And Crazy Preacher Lady with the Holy Ghost Enema.

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90. imonk, I agree with your list of silly evangelical practices, but if you go back to your article on “why Calvin is cool”, you will see that most of our arguments about why this discussion is so important have been made there by you. This is a discussion about the Gospel.

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91. First, the last time ( and it really may be the last time), that I darkened the door of an evangelical church except for a funeral wedding or relation doing a solo, on the edge growing in your face church our position was that Catholics, Methodist, probably most Church of Christ and Pentecostals, and for sure Easter O’s were in need of saving not to mention all of the near godless liberals in the Lutheran and Presbyterian camps. This was less than 15 years ago. Things may have changed. I suspect they have for the worse.

    Second, check out willoh’s web site especially in context of where pastor/preacher/con-men etc. might need to be.

    Isn’t it some kind of miracle that all of the Joel Osteens, Rick Warrens, Steve Stroopes, Ed Youngs never seem to be called to the Wyoming Valleys or Peruvian outbacks of the world?

    Wow!

    Why would that be?

    Just as and aside, like many things, we have an abundance of huckster preachers in Texas. Please, if you need one take him or her.

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92. Paul Wilkinson: In Baseball terms, we’d say you just floated one in my wheelhouse. Turn around and watch the ball leave the park 🙂

    Judgement House
    Contemporary Christian Music Divas
    Joel Osteen
    TBN, especially the hair
    Prosperity preachers
    Lying Faith healing crooks and the gullible millions who follow them
    John Haggee’s eschatology
    Left Behind
    Left Behind video games
    Harry Potter Haters
    Abusive parenting techniques
    Christian t-shirts
    Christian bumper stickers
    Thomas Kincaid devotionals
    Claims that God turns teeth gold
    The Laughing revivial
    Todd Bentley
    The Creation “Museum”
    Bible Land Amusement Parks
    Gigantic statues of Jesus
    Fear of Pumpkins

    Shall I go on?

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93. Do we need to run the evangelical version of your list? I’m too tired, but evangelicals outdo Catholics by miles in silliness and useless religious excess.

    Imonk: By miles? Patrick quantified his comment with some specifics that were pretty “out there.” I’ll admit we evangelicals can be strange at time, but what’s an example of the evangelical silliness you had in mind?

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94. “It is the vain repetition that Jesus warned us about, the hearing and not doing… Do you think we could apply that to the mass, the rosary, the hail Mary, etc…” — Bill

    What about the sixty choruses of “Just As I Am” during a Baptist/Revivalist/Evangelical Protestant Altar Call?

    And do you HAVE to “Pray the Sinner’s Prayer” using the exact wording (whatever it is) or it won’t take?

    And ending every extemporaneous prayer with the rote repetition of “in Jesus’ Name, Amen?”

    Bill, why are you serving up the watered-down anti-Catholicism? Why don’t you serve it up straight on the rocks? “Mystery Bablon System”, “Nimrod, Semiramis, and Tammuz”, “Satanic Death Cookie”, etc? I’ve seen that brand of “Bible-Believing Christian” close-up, and it almost killed me.

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95. Well said imonk. I agree that evangelicals have just as many superstitions and silly practices. I am impressed that your blog has so many streams of Christianity represented. We rarely have the opportunity to discuss things with anyone except our own “variety”. Perhaps that’s why your topic sparked such discussion. I am sorry if I offended anyone today. Patrick, I am asking the Father to remove any beam in my eye. I did not intend to judge but am concerned that there are those that are deceived. Jesus made it clear that few will enter and the way is narrow. My concern is that the Church has lost and is losing the biblical Gospel. Evidence for this is all around us, even in some of the replies today. We should be much more concerned with what the truth is and praying that all true churches would preach the truth. Once again, I plead with readers to go to the Word of God and read it for yourselves.

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96. Headless Unicorn Guy asked “Who was their pastor — Screwtape?”

    No, I think it was Cromwell. — Katy

    I don’t think so. Cromwell was 17th Century (English Civil War) and the Great Famine was early 19th.

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97. Back to the point, American churches need to work in their own back yard, much undone. Someday I pray we will all realize the mission field is in the pews in front of us. If you don’t think they have needs you need to get to know them.

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98. To Father Ernesto – The reason for that may be that unlike you we do believe that you are part of the Church, however in schism you do have valid orders and true sacraments.

    To Clark – I was born in Pery, I lived in Peru and I can tell you that the Catholicism of Lima, Chimbote, La Sierra, La Selba or Los Andes is the same as the one of Rome.

    Oh and Peru has no “mother godess” mythos in its indigenous folklore.

    To iMonk – in the 1700 I can’t remember which Pope, condemned Catholics from refering to Protestants as non-Christians. The definition of who is a Christian and who is not is well documented way before Vatican II.

    Mormons and Unitarians are not considered fully Chritian by the Church.

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99. Deep sigh over the fact that when the Savior collects His bride He will find her psychotic, divided, and self loathing. They say I am SBC, I say I am Christian and will accept no other label. We ask people to police themselves as they approach His table. There are very serious and downright scary words in scripture that we read to that effect, but to judge if one is worthy to eat The Bread of Life is far beyond my skill set, and I pity anyone who would take that responsibility. BTW Don’t ever tell me there is no “Real Presence” in my matza and grape juice, it is the realist thing I know. We all need to examine ourselves, with fear and trembling please.

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100. I think I have vaguely heard of the group Allpa Yuraq, but my favorite was a group called La Semilla.

     Please note that I did not disagree that many in Peru needed to know the Lord. My point was that there are ways to do evangelism that do not necessarily savage another Christian ecclesial community (sorry, could not resist).

     There are so many people who do not go to any place where Christians congregate, that I need not use up much time trying to grab those who are already regularly worshipping our Lord Jesus Christ (and His Father, and the Holy Spirit). Do I believe that all who are worshiping in another ecclesial community are in just as good a place as I am? No, I do not. They need to come to the Church.

     However, and this is very important, should I not worry more about the person who is clearly lost without any hope or should I waste time worrying about he/her who is regularly attending an ecclesial community and is regularly studying Scripture and is regularly praying? You can tell my choice. I would rather go after that thoroughly lost person and let the Lord take care of those who are His.

     We do argue about the Church. Catholic and Orthodox each say that we are the Church, and we mean it. Both of us say that there are non-Church communities that are filled with Christians. Protestants strongly disagree. Those arguments will not be settled anytime in the near future. But, to repeat, there are ways to evangelize that do not savage those who are clearly His. I suspect that that was iMonk’s point.

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101. Bill:

     Do we need to run the evangelical version of your list?

     I’m too tired, but evangelicals outdo Catholics by miles in silliness and useless religious excess.

     ms

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102. “You tell me, what is the Christian purpose of riding on a city bus, cussing like a sailer, yet doing the sign of the cross when you pass a church?”

     “What is the Christian purpose of walking on your knees 40 km just to hopefully have God answer your prayer?”

     “What is the Christian purpose of camping out for ten weeks on the street to be able to enter a church on a particular saints day?”

     Ask God to remove the plank lodged in your eye so you can see the purpose more clearly.

     That’s a Scriptural reply, but I bet it doesn’t jibe well with your traditional understanding of what worship, devotion, Christian faith, and Christian hope are supposed to look like.

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103. Patrick,

     The context of this post was originally South America and I was speaking of what I witnessed there over a period of several years and many subsequent trips. As has been stated several times above, I too see a difference between American Catholicism and the South American variety that is the actual subject of this post.

     You tell me, what is the Christian purpose of riding on a city bus, cussing like a sailer, yet doing the sign of the cross when you pass a church?

     What is the Christian purpose of camping out for ten weeks on the street to be able to enter a church on a particular saints day? (Hint – millions in Argentina do this yet never have any other contact with a church)

     What is the Christian purpose of walking on your knees 40 km just to hopefully have God answer your prayer?

     What is the Christian purpose of hiding a Grim Reaper idol in your hand while the priest blesses you just so you can hopefully have a good death?

     What biblial basis do you find in a Catholic woman saying, “You evangelicals think it’s all about Jesus, but we know it’s all about Mary.”

     I could give you many more examples to justify my above statements. I stand by them and pray your life and faith are true to Scripture.

     My background is Swiss-German and English. I grew up liberal Presbyterian and liberal Episcopalian and was looked upon as a fool by my family for being baptized as a Baptist. I am Baptist because for the most part they take Scripture seriously. I’m not talking to you based on cultural basis or ignorance but from Scripture. My hearts desire from this is that nominal evangelicals and nominal catholics would come to Christ in repentance and faith. Please seek Him according to Scripture, not tradition.

     Bill

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104. “It is the vain repetition that Jesus warned us about, the hearing and not doing… Do you think we could apply that to the mass, the rosary, the hail Mary, etc…”

     Bill, you’re showing yourself here, and it’s not pretty.

     Do you REALLY think that Catholics pray in vain? Do you really believe that are prayers constitute “the hearing and not doing”? Is it your position, truly, that Catholic belief is so benighted?

     If it is, you evidently live on a different planet than I do.

     “It is the official doctrinal positions of the church itself that damn people to hell. It does not teach the biblical Gospel.”

     I’m assuming you’ve got a doctrinal position that informed you of this. You, of course, probably assume that ‘knowledge’ of our damnation has nothing at all to do with the culture you’ve grown up in – I bet you’re sure the Spirit told you this. The irony is suffocating – please, give up this lame position before you die?

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105. Correction! My response was to JohnB5200’s comments preceding the one directly above my comments. Another discussion occurred while I was writing.

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106. JohnB5200,

     I agree with you here. I tend to latch on to the more ancient teachings of the church as being those that are safest for defining and delineating what the true content of faith is. In personal discipling, I strongly emphasize the historical and orthodox teaching of the church. It is of utmost importance who it is we worship. We are forever inventing God in our own image.

     But one of the most important ways people come to know the true God is by hanging out and eating with people who know Him. I’m not saying there is no such thing as false teaching. Only that the process by which people come to know the true God is often outside that which I believe is possible. And so I tend to try to leave the door more open as opposed to less.

     On the other hand, I’m pretty hard on Christians. The further into the house we are, the more critical it is that we learn to judge ourselves. I often end up angering secure Christians because I push them toward insecurity. I joke that my calling is to puncture peoples pomposity. It’s a fairly low calling, but someone has to do it.

     Anyway, you and I probably disagree less than it seems. These blogs are not very conducive to deep theological discourse, and it is way too easy to misunderstand one another. But it does seem to be worth something somehow.

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107. Again, I am not questioning people’s personal faith.
     All of us can take hope in the RCC doctrine of “invincible ignorance.”

     I am speaking only of the official doctrinal pronouncements of various Christian groups and the fact that many of these doctrines cannot be reconciled.

     Given this, I have been thinking about Pascal’s Wager.

     Perhaps only Catholics can really win.

     A Catholic can be accepted by the Protestants as saved, despite doctrine.

     And we all get in to a Mormon heaven since there is no hell.

     And, if the JWs are right, and we are wrong, we just get annihilated w/o punishment.

     The only real losing scenario is to be a Protestant who rejects the RCC (and the RCC is right.)

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108. Headless Unicorn Guy asked “Who was their pastor — Screwtape?”

     No, I think it was Cromwell.

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109. JohnB55200:
     I assume all of us are wrong about a lot of things all the time. I don’t trust in my theology, but in a living faith in a living Christ. If my map is wrongly drawn, that is an issue and should be corrected. But life isn’t all polemics and apologetics.

     Clearly it is extreme to say that those who accept Jesus-believing/trusting, Apostle’s Creed-accepting brothers and sisters as fellow Christians is the road to accepting gnosticism. Worst case scenario?

     No one is rejecting the role of doctrinal difference. Some of us are questioning the usefulness of making doctrinal statements superior to personal faith and persons of faith.

     ms

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110. MDS,

     So, the apostle John should not have made an issue with the Gnostics? They believed in Jesus, just not that he was physical. Sounds like John was drawing some sort of doctrinal in/out, true/false circle.

     And what about Jesus himself in Revelation and His condemnation of the Nicolaitans (whoever they were) and their teaching. They were apparently part of the churches, but not truly regenerate.

     I have no intention of saying all Catholics, Protestants, Mormons or JWs, are saved/unsaved. But I will say that their various ecclesiastical authorities teach doctrines that cannot be reconciled to each other. Someone has to be wrong.

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111. Willoh,

     The real world has a high level of “suck” factor, don’t you think? We are ingenious at finding ways to cut ourselves off from the grace of Christ. We divide ourselves off from God and one another using the gift of Scripture in blindingly inventive ways. When my child turns her back on the love and sustenance of her family, we all suffer for it. But her mother and I keep a place open at the table, and hope she will again come home to share the blessings that are hers. When a fellow Christian denies me, it hurts. But again, the table remains open. To be hurt without wanting to strike back is a worthy goal. To be hurt and turn the other cheek, only to be struck again, and then to turn the cheek again, and again…….one can hope that love will win out. In the end it does, doesn’t it?

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112. Willoh:

     I’ll never commune with my wife again, so I share your disgust. But I can’t answer those questions comptently.

     ms

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113. Eric,

     My understanding- which is usually corrected by three different Catholics saying different things 🙂 – is that 1) Those anathemas apply to those who separated from the church, not those born into Protestantism. (I have some issues with this, but frankly, it’s not the position of the church today, and if I believe the strength of Protestantism is being able to be wrong and make changes, then I have to let RCs do the same, even if they won’t admit that’s what they are doing.) 2) We are joined to the church by baptism, the Holy Spirit and desire to be part of the one, true church of Jesus. 3) Not being in communion with the Bishop of Rome isn’t the same as Luther’s assessment of the Bishop of Rome.

     peace

     MS

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114. I will confess Southern Baptists are not very careful with their thinking process,word choices or theological foundations. We often speak condescendingly and uncritically. Denominational journalists or catalog/prayer guide wordsmiths are usually unbearable. Pathos and Pathetic often go together in pursuing much written down denominational excellence and loyalty.

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115. Willoh,

     I understand your frustration and the pain you must have gone through during those emotional and painful events in your life.

     Closed communion can be frustrating to understand – not from an intellectual level but from a spiritual and emotional level. The Catholic Church considers the Eucharist to be the true body and blood of Jesus and denies communion to those who do not believe in the real presence. It should be noted that the Eastern Orthodox are permitted to receive communion on the Catholic Church for this very reason. I believe that Anglicans and Lutherans may one day as well but currently do not. Eastern Orthodoxy has closed communion to all including Catholics. I believe Mike Spencer has mentioned in other blogs that Southern Baptists practice closed communion for different reasons. It is not purely a Catholic thing.

     As for you not being able to preach at a funeral – I’ve seen Methodist ministers give words at a Catholic Funeral Mass – so it may just be the priest in that particular parish.

     Grace and peace to you…

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116. Headless Unicorn Guy,

     I just wanted to say that I sincerely hope that I didn’t come off as sounding negative toward the Iraqi man. — Katie

     I didn’t think you did. My blast was to the cluelessness of the American Christian in the incident. I’ve been on the receiving end of the same sentiment a few times myself.

     Chris Lee,

     How do you presume to know who is lost and who is saved? What basis does anyone have to ever make such a judgment? — MDS

     If you’re a clueless Evangelical, it all comes down to whether you’ve “Walked the Aisle”/”Prayed the Sinner’s Prayer” or not. A lot of the snark on Slacktivist’s Left Behind deconstruction blog comes from that simplistic, “Say the Magic Words” concept of salvation. (Never mind that “The Sinner’s Prayer” is itself a direct knockoff of the Catholic “Act of Contrition”.)

     Thirty years ago, during my sojourn in the world of Wretched Urgency/Who has the most Notches on their Bible, I actually got told that because I hadn’t “prayed The Sinner’s Prayer” using The Exact Words (Kynge Jaymes?), my salvation didn’t take. (I got to be a notch on several Bibles that way…)

     Question, everybody: How does that differ from crocking a magic spell because you didn’t get the verbal component right?

     “This is what in Ireland is called “souperism” and it goes back to the Famine. Some enthusiastic but misguided Evangelical associations in England decided to use the great teaching opportunity that the famine – the chastisement by God of the rebellious, papist Irish – presented to convert us natives to the true faith. — Martha

     Question, everybody: How does this differ from some of the tactics mentioned in this IMonk rant? Other than the stakes are higher (if you convert, we won’t let you starve to death; if you don’t…)?

     (Here is also the reason the Quakers have a good reputation in Ireland – they provided relief without stipulating you had to give up being Catholic to receive it.) — Martha

     Did I just read that as the English Evangelicals’ attitude was “Convert or we’ll let you starve to death”? Who was their pastor — Screwtape?

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117. JohnB5200,

     I understand where you are going, and I certainly don’t think all roads are the same. I love doctrine, but it is wrongly used when we think it tells us who is in and who is out. There is a way, and the way is Christ, and it there is no way but Him. Why does this fact lead us to think we are given the task of drawing rings around the choseness our particular groups?

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118. iMonk,

     In working through the issues of how Catholics understand Protestants, what have you discovered about the anathemas handed down by Trent? Perhaps some evangelicals don’t really fall under those anathemas, but others (like myself) knowingly and willingly profess to be true what Rome has condemned. Are we, too, merely separated brothers, baptized into the Catholic Church by virtue of our Trinitarian baptism, but not formally part of the Church? Or, are we, like many of the early martyrs, cut off from Rome by virtue of our “heresy”? I realize that many individual Catholics, some higher-ups, and nearly everyone involved with ECT wants to demur on this, but until Rome rescinds their anathema or I rescind my subscription to the WCF, we seem to be at odds.

     Eric

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119. The Bible is a mirror into which we should look and examine ourselves, not a magnifying glass we use to examine others. To confuse those functions is most unseemly. If I were not already a Christian, I should hardly want to be one if I were to base my decision on my observations of those whose days are consumed by peering through the magnifying glass.

     Then again, perhaps some people default to the business model – If our business has yet to open an outlet in that part of the city or state, then we consider the residents “unreached”, even though there are numerous businesses providing similar products and services to the inhabitants of that region.

     In either case, should the local natives discover the terminology that said group or groups use to refer to them, they might be inclined to not think kindly of such groups.

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120. Martha,

     Having descended from an Irishman who left Ireland three years before the Potato Famine (tradition says Skibereen, County Cork, though I have not proven it yet) I appreciate the bit of history.

     To others:

     I am sorry to see this particular stream break down into the percieved failings of the Catholic Church and who is saved or not. There are nominal christians in all camps and we all need to start admitting that one. There are things folks will be in disagreement about whether it be Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, or any of the mainline protestant churches. You can lay the blame for the decline in church attendance and perceived lack of faith development in Latin America on the Catholic Church, Northern Europe on the Lutherans and Reformed, Russia on the Russian Orthodox etc. – or anywhere where one particular faith tradition has been in there for centuries and infused in the culture. The grass is always greener they say… bring in a new way to do faith and things seem to spring to life until, as the Who stated 35 years ago..”Meet the knew boss, same as the old boss” – meaning have your faith tradition stick around for a while, through good times and bad, war and pestilence and take a look after a few hundred years…

     My thoughts…

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121. The comment about the Quakers is interesting in the context of making judgments as to who is inside or outside the church. I recently visited the Florida Holocaust Museum where they had a special exhibit on the Jehovah’s Witnesses and how they were among the only “Christian” group who consistently put their lives on the line to save Jews, and to the point of themselves going to the camps and death.

     I have to admit, I was shocked to see them referred to as “Christians”. I had seen them as outside the church and something like a cult. But to the Jews, they were simply another sect of the Christian faith, and perhaps the only one in Germany that repeatedly risked their lives on behalf of the Jewish people.

     And so once more I had to step back and ask, “Who is the true man and woman of faith?” If a pagan lives as a Christian, and I the Christian live as a pagan, who is the true Christian in the eyes of God? To whom will God say, “I never knew you!”? I can only hope and trust in the grace of God that it will not be me.

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122. Monk if Vatican II you quote is in play why was my wife denied Communion at her Dad’s funeral for having two”bastard children? This announced before the large crowd there assembled We were married Methodist 8 years before they were born and I was a Lay preacher and deacon in the Church of Christ? Like being “properly catechized” believe me a lot of people did not get the memo. Why can’t I be buried with our family? Why can’t I share in communion? Why have priests walked out of funerals when I am called up to preach?
     The real world has some contrasts to what is written.

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123. It seems to me that this whole discussion has descended to the level of “Don’t all religions really just teach the same thing? Can’t we all just get along?”

     Oh those wacky reformers and Popes! If they were smart, like us, we could have been singing kumbaya around a campfire for the past 500 years.

     Puhlease.

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124. I can’t type today. “Family many” was supposed to be “family members.”

     Martha, do you know of any sources of info on Quakers in Ireland?

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125. Martha said: “this is what in Ireland is called “souperism” and it goes back to the Famine. Some enthusiastic but misguided Evangelical associations in England decided to use the great teaching opportunity that the famine – the chastisement by God of the rebellious, papist Irish – presented to convert us natives to the true faith. (Here is also the reason the Quakers have a good reputation in Ireland – they provided relief without stipulating you had to give up being Catholic to receive it.)”

     Thank you for writing about this. I had first heard about “soupers” in Frank McCourt’s novel Angela’s Ashes, but I didn’t know about the Quaker connection. I find that particularly fascinating because I come from a long line of Quakers (my 98 year old great grandmother still said “thee” and “thou”). I do remember someone telling me that Quakers were useful for negotiations in Ireland between Protestants and Catholics because they are sort of neither. I’m currently transitioning into a “continuing” Anglican church, but my ancestry and background is still a sticking point for me. I know many RCs, EO, Anglicans, and Lutherans would say my very Christ-like Quaker family many are in Hell, or soon will be, because they were never baptized with water.

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126. Here’s the thing. If there is a point at which one becomes “saved” in any meaningful sense, only God knows. What we do know for certain is that we will never stop needing the food of salvation. Salvation is ongoing and continuous. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. So open the doors and ask everyone in. But do not presume to know who is inside or outside the house of God.

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127. Chris Lee,

     How do you presume to know who is lost and who is saved? What basis does anyone have to ever make such a judgment? Christ died for all, did he not? It is not given to us to know the heart of anyone beyond ourselves, and even that is largely outside our knowing. To the degree the true condition of our own heart is revealed to us by the Spirit, we find we have nothing to hope in but Christ alone, for we are rather dark beings. But we have been invited to the feast by the one who has true food and drink, and are called to invite others to sup and celebrate with us.

     We are like chicks that cannot feed themselves, but stretch out their necks and open their mouths to receive the sustenance they cannot provide for themselves and will die without. Saved or not saved, we will forever be dependent upon what only God provides.

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128. Paul, here’s the quote you were looking for. This particular source is from USA Today…

     Pope: Other Christians not true churches
     http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2007-07-10-pope_N.htm?csp=34
     July 10, 2007

     LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy (AP) ­ Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches… “Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,” the document said. The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense”

     Someone earlier said you can tell a lot about a group by what they call other faith groups and what they think of someone who leaves their faith group for another. The above quote isn’t some guy spouting off on the blogisphere…it’s official church doctrine.

     Semper Reformanda
     Bill

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129. “Just spent 20 minutes at vatican.va trying to get the exact quotation, but in a speech made earlier this year, Benedict XVI diminished all other Christian faith groups somewhat by describing them pejoratively as (I believe this is exact) “spiritual communities” then saying that truth is found only in the RCC itself. There was no inference that other groups are part of an overarching RCC.

     Does anyone else know the speech I’m referring to?”

     I don’t know the speech, but the exact term is “Ecclesial communities”, and is the standard Catholic parlance for non-Catholic and non-Orthodox churches. Basically, it’s a way to distinguish the Church with a big C from churches with a small c.

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130. Patrick said: There’s a liturgical reason that Scripture is read that way in Catholic and Anglo-Catholic churches.

     I understand why it is read that why and I also object to the cult of personality as well present inmany evangelical churches. I’m talking specifically in this instance about the many people I know in that one particular who show no sign of regeneration. It is the vain repetition that Jesus warned us about, the hearing and not doing… Do you think we could apply that to the mass, the rosary, the hail Mary, etc…

     Patrick said: If you’re afraid of our ornate buildings and our guys with robes, say that. Don’t make statements to the effect that those buildings and robes PREVENT people from knowing, loving and serving God. It’s just not an intelligent, reasonable thing to say to the Catholics who read this blog.

     It’s not your buildings or your robes that prevent people from coming to Christ… you are confusing your physical buildings with the spiritual church. It is the official doctrinal positions of the church itself that damn people to hell. It does not teach the biblical Gospel.

     Base what you believe on Scripture, not culture or tradition.

     Bill

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131. Michael,

     Just spent 20 minutes at vatican.va trying to get the exact quotation, but in a speech made earlier this year, Benedict XVI diminished all other Christian faith groups somewhat by describing them pejoratively as (I believe this is exact) “spiritual communities” then saying that truth is found only in the RCC itself. There was no inference that other groups are part of an overarching RCC.

     Does anyone else know the speech I’m referring to?

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132. Headless Unicorn Guy,

     I just wanted to say that I sincerely hope that I didn’t come off as sounding negative toward the Iraqi man. I know that there are Christians of all varieties in Iraq and the middle east and I thank God for them. I was trying to point out how distressing it is that the impression this Iraqi man got from a person in uniform representing our country was that his proclamation of faith was worthless.

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133. “An extreme example of this came from a missionary I know. They had set up an area in a poor foreign country where they provided food and supplies and in a year or so had won a number of converts. At one point the funding dried up and the missionary group left for a time. Upon returning a couple of years later they found the area had reverted back to the faith the inhabitants practiced before the missionaries arrived.”

     Radagast, this is what in Ireland is called “souperism” and it goes back to the Famine. Some enthusiastic but misguided Evangelical associations in England decided to use the great teaching opportunity that the famine – the chastisement by God of the rebellious, papist Irish – presented to convert us natives to the true faith. (Here is also the reason the Quakers have a good reputation in Ireland – they provided relief without stipulating you had to give up being Catholic to receive it.)

     Suffice it to say, in the late 1970s when I was in sixth class, we were still hearing the folk tales of those who had, through hunger and desperation, ‘converted’ for soup and blankets, and having renounced their birthright for a mess of pottage, on the way home spilled the soup.

     Yeah, it’s a sore subject. Calling someone a “souper” or saying of such-and-such “They took the soup” is still an insult, here in the back end of nowheresville.

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134. “I do not doubt that there are many saved Catholics, but as has been said many times in the blogroll above, it is in spite of the Catholic Church, not because of it.”

     This has been a pretty good discussion so far; don’t wiener it up with statements like this..

     No Catholic would ever agree with you on that point – not the most ‘saved’ ones, probably not even the ‘unreached’ ones.

     If you’re afraid of our ornate buildings and our guys with robes, say that. Don’t make statements to the effect that those buildings and robes PREVENT people from knowing, loving and serving God. It’s just not an intelligent, reasonable thing to say to the Catholics who read this blog.

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135. Chris Lee, thanks for summing that up for us. I’ll be sure to let my family know they’re going to Hell. Good looking out, buddy.

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136. “I have sat through many Episcopal services and heard such beautiful words of Scripture being read in monotone.”

     There’s a liturgical reason that Scripture is read that way in Catholic and Anglo-Catholic churches. Basically, the notion behind it is that a performy reading of Scripture inhibits our ability to really meditate on the words themselves, instead of paying attention to the meaning of the words, we find ourselves anticipating and drawing meaning from how the lector is pronouncing them.

     You probably guessed it was because everybody was bored and old and need to convert to some kind of enthusiastic worship model so they can experience Jesus coming into their hearts with fervor.

     No, it’s just a rather ancient, thoughtful practice aimed at taking Holy Scripture as seriously as possible and not getting it wrapped up in anybody’s cult of personality, such as may be. It sometimes used to be chanted.

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137. Things not found in the early church that have been introduced by human agency and may not necessarily be of God nor found in the early church; “ritual” in the sense of constant repetition that can lose its meaning. — Paul Wilkinson

     The Rosary or Breviary is “vain repetition” and sixty Praise Choruses of “Just as I Am” or “Jesus is My Boyfriend” at the altar call ending every service isn’t?

     I also had a conversation with my sister-in-law’s father (he is IMB) about a recent mission trip to Guatemala. He was frustrated about the fact that the local Catholic priest would not allow them to have their service in his Church building while they were evangelizing the “lost” Catholics… — Radagast

     Let me get this straight: He wanted the very church/parish who’s sheep he’s trying to steal away to host his sheep-rustling event?

     Now THAT’s clueless…

     When I attended college (an RC one), I was appreciative of the fact that they could not burn me at the stake in the middle of the quad. They attempted, in oh so many ways, to get me to repent and return to the true church. — Boethius

     And you’ve never been the target of high-profile “Wretched Urgency” Witnessing from Evangelicals? What you describe is the Catholic version of Wretched Urgency, though it’s much less popular a way to flake out among Catholics. (Mary Obsession is still the most popular way to flake.) I’ve only encountered “The Order of St Borg” (“You Will Become Catholic! Resistance Is Futile! Prepare to be Assimilated! We’re Gonna Getcha! We’re Gonna Getcha!”) full-strength on the rocks among recent converts from Prot to Cath.

     And Catholics, like anyone else, are prone to Can-You-Top-This devotions.

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138. Let me just say that most of the people in South America are indeed lost. We should be concerned about their souls.

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139. Jenny,

     You wrote a very kind and well-thought out reply. Thanks for that gracious spirit. I’ll stick to the one line that you objected to. I wrote, “There really isn’t a lot of Gospel being preached in the Catholic church.” Maybe not the best-thought out line in my reply and for my lack of clarity I apologize. I understand your post and especially your request that I sit in on a mass. I have done so before and have also sat in on many Episcopal services, which while not being mass, are similar, although I don’t want to debate the similarities and differences! I have sat through many Episcopal services and heard such beautiful words of Scripture being read in monotone. I have prayed the very thing you wrote earlier, praying that eyes and ears and hearts would be opened.

     The discussion we are having goes back to the marks of a church…what we believe, what we teach and what we preach. As a Protestant coming out of the Reformation I see the marks of the church being the right preaching of the Word of God and the right administration of the sacraments. That is, salvation is by grace through faith, not of works. The right chuch will preach correct saving doctrine. Likewise the sacraments do not save and can not be preached as such.

     I do not doubt that there are many saved Catholics, but as has been said many times in the blogroll above, it is in spite of the Catholic Church, not because of it. It is truly an act of Sovereign Grace that He saves any, but I will say that you see more evidence of His regenerating work where you see the right preaching of His Word and right administration of the sacraments.

     I do not write this with a prideful, “We’re right, you’re wrong attitude”. I write this out of a deep belief that this is the clear teaching of Scripture. I pray that Catholic priests are pleading with men and women to repent of their sins and to trust in Christ alone. I pray they are preaching the perfect life, death, and resurrection of Christ.

     Bill

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140. One of the Iraqis said “But sir, I am a Catholic!” with an excited smile. The marine replied to him “Like that’s any better than being muslim..” I was heartbroken to hear such ignorance, and to think of it’s impression on that Iraqi man. — Katie

     My sister-in-law is an Assyrian Christian from Mosul, Iraq. There is (or was) a sizable Christian community in the mountains of Northern Iraq.

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141. Original post: “There’s nothing more indicative of our arrogant spirituality than this self-assured confidence…”

     That’s one difference I’ve always noticed between “well intentioned” S Baptist types and catholicism. When asked (If you were to die tonight, would you be in heaven?); the most common answer would be “well I hope so”. That answer can be misinterpreted by some well meaning folks.

     “I hope so” – may mean that I hope I’ve been good enough, I have prayed, read the bible, and gone to church; and I’ve never done anything really bad like murdering someone. And it may mean that this person needs evangelization. (but don’t we all)

     “I hope so” – could also mean I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and that he died for my sins, and I am trusting Christ alone to save me. I have “blessed assurance” in the gospel of Christ and in his sacraments and I have what the bible calls authentic Christian hope for my salvation. Faith, Hope, and Love right?

     If God is sovereign (soli deo Gloria); then could presumption in some ways be considered sinul?

     I think St. Joan of Arc had a hopeful Christian spirituality:
     “If I am not in God’s grace, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.”

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142. One of the best ways to judge any denomination, Catholic or otherwise, is to hear what they have to say about people who have converted away from them. Just what does the catechism say about those of us who have left the true church and joined the fallen brethren? Hmmm.

     When I attended college (an RC one), I was appreciative of the fact that they could not burn me at the stake in the middle of the quad. They attempted, in oh so many ways, to get me to repent and return to the true church. One monk even suggested I return to the true church so I could get a divorce and annulment from my spouse. (Considering church history, how ironic is that!) (The priest of my parish however did not make any attempt to talk with me or search for my reasons for abandoning the true church; he did not even acknowledge that I had left and I had attended that church from infancy to adulthood!)

     So, I am going on a short term missions trip to Guatemala the last week in February. This will be the third year in a row that I have this wonderful opportunity. The majority of them are RC there. Yes indeed, I will attempt to reason with them to come over to the fallen brethren side!

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143. Fr. Ernesto – I don’t know what happened, but I remembered. Allpa Yuraq. Ever heard of them?

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144. Paul: Please consult Vatican II on the CHurch and Ecumenism to get an accurate view of the RCC and it’s view of Protestants. We ARE part of the Catholic church according to Catholic doctrine.

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145. Fr. Ernesto, I might have to get you to help me find some music. I used to have a CD of a group whose name was something like “white field” or “white harvest” in Quechua and I lost it. I might be able to recall the name if I’m lucky but I’d love to replace that long lost music. So beautiful.

     I saw some pretty wacky looking stuff in a couple of Catholic churches in Peru that I assumed was syncretism (one in Lima and one in Huancayo). But who knows?

     My in-laws are missionaries in Spain and a lot of times they are asked why they are there since Spain is a Catholic country. Their reply is “No, it’s not.” It used to be but the vast majority of people there have no faith commitment. They had a Catholic priest offer space in his building to use for English classes. His attitude was one of almost despondency – he was happy to help even if they didn’t become Catholic.

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146. I think anywhere that some form of Christianity is the majority or even plurality faith, you tend to end up with a “cultural” Christianity. People profess allegiance to that faith because they don’t want to be the odd man out. They “go along to get along.” (One of the worst things to happen to the church, in my opinion, was Christianty becoming the official religion of the Roman empire after Constantine’s conversion – people started claiming Christianity so they could maintain favor and hold office, but held on to their old pagan practices too.) Or they are relying on their parents’ or grandparents’ faith, never making it truly their own through personal belief and application.

     Look at how many young people drop out of church when they head off to college (or move out of their parents’ home to work/get married) and no longer have to follow “house rules.” Those kids may be “churched” but they’re unreached – they have not let the gospel change them.

     In places like China and the Middle East, where all believers in Christ are drastically outnumbered by Muslims, Buddhits, Taoists, or Communist authorities, you can bet that those calling themselves Christians (of whatever stripe, Cathoic, Orthodox, Baptist, Anglican, Pentecostal) are not Christians-in-name-only like so many Americans. Why would they claim an affiliation that could cost them their job, home, or even their life if they didn’t really believe.

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147. From what I’ve seen, American Christianity come is two fusion flavors: Christianity + Patriotism and Christianity + Capitalism. If I have to sit through another service where we “honor our military heroes who are doing God’s work and defeating our enemies…” These two bit used car salesmen can’t help themselves I guess.

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148. “There really isn’t a lot of Gospel being preached in the Catholic church”

     Bill,

     This statement is terribly disheartening to me because it is what I was told being as an Evagnelical for over twenty years. Now as a Catholic, I can say is not true.

     At each and every DAILY mass offered in each and every parish in South America as well as the rest of the globe, the Gospel is proclaimed.

     Now, he who has ears will hear: the words of Scripture, the words of Christ, the teaching of the apostles. They will hear the gospel EVERYWHERE in the mass.

     And if he, by God’s grace, opens his heart to the presence of the Holy Spirit, he will encounter Jesus Christ and by faith, God’s graces will
     transform his life and love will flow. He who has ears, let him hear.

     He who harbors false assumptions and prejudices, will see and hear what he wants.

     From what many non-practicing/former Catholics have shared with me, they will fall into serious sin and then get “saved” from the witness of someone with a very scripted or culturally correct evangelical vernacular rendering of a gospel presentation.

     This person will subsequently deny ever hearing the gospel. Through my many interviews with my friends and family who have experienced a genuine conversion towards God in this manner, I have come to conclude it is a very comforting position being able to share the blame, especially as it pertains to the authority in our lives:

     “I did not hear the gospel”.

     Often then, they will gather teachers around himself and they will gladly reinforce it:

     “No, the Catholic Church doesn’t preach the gospel”.

     That is not true.

     What has happened, for whatever human reason, lack of zeal on the parish’s part, the priest’s part, no faith instruction in the home, bad CCD, or just plain because they were tempted away into sin, they covered their ears, they closed their eyes and their hearts wandered from God.

     I would encourage you even to find a local mass and just sit there and listen, open hearted. Even with no singing or the DULLEST presiding priest on the face of this earth, just listen.

     Thanks.

     Best Regards,
     Jenny

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149. DaveD, check out Mormon doctrine,really check it out. deeply. Fr. Ernesto has a point. Still I am enough of a Calvinist to think the Holy Spirit could save a Mormon, but their doctrine is wayyyy out there. I will go to church with Fr. Ernesto {as long as he shuts up about WoW} we have the same understanding of Who Christ is, and where we will share eternity, neither of us fathering spirit children. We believe there is 1 God and he ain’t either of us. We may disagree on the age for baptism, but we agree you must be alive.

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150. DaveD:

     While my comments have been more moderate, your quotation,
     Pope Eugene IV said “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal…”
     may have been somewhat softened by Vatican 2, but wasn’t it more or less reaffirmed by more recent statements by Benedict XVI?

     This deals with the issue that I considered before initially weighing in: What does it say about a particular group’s own view of salvation if they believe there is no salvation to be found elsewhere?

     There is one rather narrow branch of Lutheranism here in Canada which doesn’t allow their pastors any contact with pastors of other denominations. One of them was excommunicated from his church for attending an interdenominational worship service. The charge? “Worshiping with unbelievers.” The local minister can’t sit on the ministerial committee, won’t shop in the Christian bookstore, etc.

     Exclusivity is the mark of a cult. The day I start believing that my little group has cornered the market on salvation is the day you have start questioning my own.

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151. In the Christian bookstore at the independent evangelical mega-church near our neighborhood, books on Catholicism are located in the “Other Religions” section. You can extrapolate from that fact and imagine what the selection looks like…

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152. Imonk and Martha,

     I apologize if this seems obstinant. Pope Eugene IV said “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal…”

     I’ll grant you that the quote is from well before Vatican 2. The problem I have is that the RCC teaches there is no salvation outside of the Church. Then the current pope proclaims it’s “difficult to see how the title of ‘Church’ could possibly be attributed to them”. Them being Protestant churches. He also refers to the RCC as “the one true Church of Christ”.

     I understand that their official, Vatican 2 position may be different but at ground level this seems to be the teaching. I used to believe that we were all one big happy Christian family until I stated that belief to a Catholic. His response was like a slap in the face: “No, YOU’RE a Christian. I’m a Catholic.”

     I live in a deeply Catholic city. I have for most of my 36 years of life. I know what the Catholics in this city of 2.1 million (including the surrounding areas) believe about non-Catholics. They’re learning it somewhere.

     To make my point crystal clear. I am not offended by both sides questioning the others faith. I question everybody’s professed faith until I see some fruit in their lives. I am offended by the idea that Protestants doing it is bigotry and Catholics doing it is a non issue. I find it odd that according to Father Ernesto a Mormon (who confesses Jesus as Lord but has some screwy extra-biblical doctrines) are considered fair game for evangelism but an RCC (who confesses Jesus as Lord but has some screwy extra-biblical doctrines) is to be respected as a brother.

     I believe that there are Christians, members of the Church Unseen, in every denomination and even in Mormonism. Michael, I believe both you and your wife are the Church. I don’t believe that the teachings of either side agrees with that.

     DD

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153. Western Europe has similar or worse statistics, whether that be Catholic or Protestant. Eastern Europe fairs a bit better, at least in the statistics concerning Catholics – I am not sure of the other faith traditions. Africa is flourishing for both Catholic and Protestant and I can bet that there are many who practice syncretism there too.

     OK – is there a pattern? Is it only the Catholic Church that is perceived to condone syncretism, or is it as this blog suggests, that sycretism exists in the evangelical world too and also on our home soil?

     I believe there are a few things at play here, depth of the spiritual journey, cultural and socioeconomic issues.

     Does moving an individual or group from one christian faith bucket to the next really change things when the primary focus for that individual or group is where their next meal is coming from? An extreme example of this came from a missionary I know. They had set up an area in a poor foreign country where they provided food and supplies and in a year or so had won a number of converts. At one point the funding dried up and the missionary group left for a time. Upon returning a couple of years later they found the area had reverted back to the faith the inhabitants practiced before the missionaries arrived.

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154. In my region of Pa. there are many Catholic churches closing, being merged, being sold, yet Catholic numbers in surveys stay high. It seems people are born Catholic. A large number of these people could count on two hands the number of times they attend Mass after First Holy Communion until they marry, then go missing again until they have children then they go back to have the baby baptized and the cycle starts again.
     Most of these people do not believe many of the tenants of their church, and if you listen with love they will tell you that they vote abortion candidates, use birth control, and many are openly agnostic. I am going to tell them the gospel. They are the same group to me as “twice a year Methodists”and the vast majority of Americans.
     It has been my honor to meet serious Catholics who understand and study and pray and can teach me about a Christ centered spirituality, but they are the exception not the rule. In 30 years of preaching[not pastoring] in a predominately Catholic area I have found so many people who would be called “poorly catechized” as they do not really know what they believe. They have their own version of “once saved always saved” and our local papers always have ads running in the classified section, “prayer to [yes to!] Mary never known to fail, say 8 times”, or,”prayer to Jude [yes to] for hopeless causes, worked for me.”
     This is the reality. I am not going to “evangelize” my cousins, one a Carmelite Nun, or her sister who goes to mass several times a week. We have more in common with each other and more to share than to argue about, but the once a year church goer who would really rather not be there anyway is fair game no matter what nominal affiliation there may be.
     Some of the dedicated Catholics here should feel free to invite nominal…… fill in the blank, to Mass and really share Jesus as you know Him. It is not the label that counts, it is the Gospel, I am enough of a Calvinist to believe the Holy Spirit is not intimidated by the sign on a buildings door, He will save people thru hearing the Gospel in many different environments, even if that makes some of us mad.

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155. Obed-

     Ow! That hurt…..that’s brutally honest, I would wholeheartedly agree.

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156. Hi brother,
     I read your site regularly from the link at sbcvoices.com That’s been a nice way to hear what others are thinking from one site. I hope more blogs link to it. I wanted to respond because we lived in Argentina as missionaries and I have shared the same questions as you. What I learned in Argentina at least was that only %14 of the country attended church of any type ever. About half of those numbers were evenagelicals so you are correct in saying that the IMB stats report evangelical numbers as “saved”.

     We can’t say that all those in church are saved or that all those out of church are lost, but as you meet people and get to know and love them, you see that the vast majority there do not have a saving relationship with Christ. That’s not being judgmental, it’s just saying that they do not understanding the Gospel. I had many close Catholic friends who I am still in contact with who represent that %86 unchurched. For the most part they attend church at baptism, marriage, and funeral and nothing in between. It looks bad to paint large brushg strokes when talking about people’s salvation since none of us know for certain from a distance who is saved and who is not, but there are a lot of lost people there. There really isn’t a lot of Gospel being preached in the Catholic church there either although I did meet a few Catholic belivers. There really is a lot of Mariolatry and worship of patron saints. There really isn’t a lot of Jesus in that culture.

     I don’t know a better way for missiologists to try and gauge effectiveness… perhaps the real problem here is our desire to make impressive sounding reports.

     Grace to you,
     Bill

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157. Just to add to the fun…

     I believe Eastern Orthodoxy isn’t added to the mix because most evangelicals have no exposure to the eastern church.

     My wife has a cousin who “was saved” and after rallying against the Catholics for a while he eventually ended up in Kyrgystan trying to convert the muslims. During one of his visits back in the States I asked him about the Russian Orthodox which is the dominant faith tradition in the city where he was based. His answer was that they were peculiar and definitely not Christian, and were to be targeted for evangelization as aggressively as the muslim.

     I also had a conversation with my sister-in-law’s father (he is IMB) about a recent mission trip to Guatemala. He was frustrated about the fact that the local Catholic priest would not allow them to have their service in his Church building while they were evangelizing the “lost” Catholics…

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158. Paul Wilkinson
     “Let me clarify. I think if you did exit interviews with these people after mass, and surveyed their belief on a number of doctrinal issues, you’d find a wider range of answers than you’d get if you did exit interviews outside each of the mainline Protestant and Evangelical churches. It’s got to be one of the seven religious wonders of the world that they all meet under the same roof each Sunday.”

     I don’t think so. The SBC church I just left with Sunday worship attendance of about 2000+ each week would give you an incredibly wide range of answers. Based on my conversations over the years. And almost all of them think they are right and in agreement with each other. Mainly because they don’t talk to each other about core issues. 😦

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159. “Syncretism” and “Rarely go to church”…doesn’t that describe the vast majority of members in Southern Baptist churches?

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160. In some Reformed circles I’ve been part of, not only are all the “unreached” groups (according to the Southern Baptists) viewed as unreached, but so are the Southern Baptists.

     Some of the people I’ve known would be shocked if God told them that there were as many as 7,000 in America that hadn’t bowed the knee to Baal.

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161. “And for our first assignment, how about Southern Baptists figure out what the Good News of Jesus and his Kingdom is, and whether it’s an offer a person can get in on if they aren’t a Southern Baptist evangelical?”

     Amen

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162. iMonk wrote:

     Do evangelicals have any allegiance to human religious authority, or are they just reading the Bible?

     I recently heard an interview on NPR with Frank Schaefer (sp?) son of Francis Schaefer, one of the founders of the “moral majority” movement. When asked why Frank converted to Greek Orthodoxy rather than remain fundy evangelical or become an atheist, Frank said that the cult of personality that tends to surround evangelical preachers was the biggest reason. I.e. if Pastor XYZ leaves or is booted from his church, the church will usually die. But in Orthodoxy, Catholicism, etc the local priests are interchangeable and/or completely replaceable.

     It may be on a local/congregational level, but many evangelical pastors are just as “infallible” in the eyes of their church as the Pope is to Catholicism. At least Catholicism is honest about its stance.

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163. So, if I understand the gist of the conversation thus far, it is that a person has an equal likelihood of being saved or lost in any church, Catholic or Evangelical? The odds are equal?

     Sounds like the consensus is that the RCC has just as much gospel as the “evangelicals.”

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164. Dave D, our position used to be that you were heretics, but not pagans or heathen – you were spoiled Christians 🙂

     Now, you’re separated brethren and of course, always our even-Christians.

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165. Last question first: I think there’s A to Z in both but that the RC people add a few extras! My contact with RC Christians often contains a few surprise takes on various doctrines that were somewhat outside the box.

     Second last question next: I think many evangelicals are guilty of “bibleolatry,” where the text itself is so supreme that Jesus fades into the background. But the Evangelicals or Mainline protestants don’t have as formal a hierarchy, or a place like Rome where the buck stops; though for some it might be Wheaton, or Nashville, or just about anywhere in Texas.

     First two questions: “Pagan” in the sense that it’s used in the Viola/Barna book: Things not found in the early church that have been introduced by human agency and may not necessarily be of God nor found in the early church; “ritual” in the sense of constant repetition that can lose its meaning.

     But you can’t criticize the ritual of the mass when your evangelical service consists of the same empty “liturgy” each week also — don’t forget to put the solo just before the message — though I find the Anglican and Catholic liturgy to be a little dryer while some more lively evangelical services are comparatively devoid of content. No winners on either side, there.

     So I’d say you can be equally “saved” in both an Evangelical and a R.C. environment; and equally “lost” in both.

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166. My wife has had the experience (at our former Baptist church) of having someone at her MOM’S group table pray for the conversion of that person’s Catholic mother-in-law … while the (unbeknownst to the rest of the group) Catholic friend my wife had invited was sitting there.

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167. Do you believe there are any evangelicals who have given their allegiance to various forms of paganism?

     And where is there a system of “pagan ritual” in Roman Catholicism?

     Do evangelicals have any allegiance to human religious authority, or are they just reading the Bible?

     And do you actually believe that there is not the same diversity of belief in those evangelical churches? From A to Z on every doctrine?

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168. The problem here is not “Catholic,” the adjective, but “Catholics,” the collective noun. In the town where my Christian bookstore is located there are a dozen Protestant denominations represented. However, within the one Catholic church in town, I believe there is a range of belief far greater than the number “12” suggested by the number of Protestant Churches; I think it’s more like 16 or 18.

     Let me clarify. I think if you did exit interviews with these people after mass, and surveyed their belief on a number of doctrinal issues, you’d find a wider range of answers than you’d get if you did exit interviews outside each of the mainline Protestant and Evangelical churches. It’s got to be one of the seven religious wonders of the world that they all meet under the same roof each Sunday.

     So in summary, I believe there are some Roman Catholics who have fully embraced the salvation that is only found in the finished work of Jesus Christ, and are as gloriously saved as any Baptist or Pentecostal might claim to be; and I believe there are some Roman Catholics who are caught in a system of pagan ritual and allegiance to religious authority that has given them a false sense of security, and blinded them to even the most basic tenets of Christian doctrine.

     And I believe both of these types are sitting right next to each other each Sunday morning. In North America and South America.

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169. Oh, thank you. We went to a SBC church in Alabama that we loved, and we loved the people. But it drove me absolutely nuts when they would go on about how an entire given area (in particular, Vancouver, BC) was going to hell because there weren’t enough SBC churches.

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170. Brad:

     I don’t know why you assume I disagree. People who don’t worship Jesus but worship idols should be evangelized.

     I am not denying at all that many are cultural religionists, syncretists, etc.

     But so are we. And we all need to be evangelized.

     I support your mission completely. Please don’t cite me as supporting someone supporting idol worship is a Christian. But also don’t count me as assuming Baptists understand Catholicism completely either.

     MS

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171. Thanks for the edit, Michael; it is to your credit, and enhances what is a productive discussion.

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172. Sorry, IMonk, but I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one (I usually do agree with most of what you say)

     I’ve done a lot of ministry with my father-in-law in central Mexico, and the people he evangelizes, though Catholic by heritage, do not follow Jesus. Idol worship is common, and they are used to find some personal gain. I’ve seen some pretty weird spiritual consequences from this idol worship. Of course, the biggest competitor for Jesus is “La Virgen” Mary to whom worship is given and blessings are attributed. Jesus is never mentioned. I do guess we could say this about other denominations in America, but if evangelize means “to proclaim the Gospel” then this area still needs evangelization.

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173. Hmm,

     Oddly enough, I was a missionary in the Peruvian Andes. So, let me report on a couple of my experiences very briefly. Since I was the Regional Director, I have pretty good inside knowledge.

     First, I knew the local Roman Archbishop and, eventually, his successor. They knew we were planting churches there. In the main city, Arequipa, we ended up with several churches, an orphanage, and a school. We only reached out to those who were not church attenders. If they were church attenders we left them alone. (That policy did NOT apply to Jehova’s Witnesses or Mormons.)

     Second, eventually we broke out to the countryside. My last couple of years in Peru, I would be riding a mule every few weeks to go preach at a mountain town deep in the Andes. (5 hours by bus from Arequipa to the Colca Canyon, an additional 8 hours of mule and walking.) The Quechua town we went to had a priest who came only every six months to a year, only if invited, and only if paid. I am not sure his Archbishop fully knew about that. Right after I left, the entire town decided to commit to the Lord through our Church. Yes, it was a group conversion.

     Third, even before I left, and turned the ministry over to a local Quechua priest I had helped train, messengers had come from another town asking whether I would go visit. By now, the Quechuas have raised up and additional three or four churches.

     So, why is not the local Catholic Archbishop mad? Because we had communicated. Because we reached out only to those not currently attending. And yet, he knew that we did not believe that the Roman Church is the True Church.

     Moral – you can do an awful lot of evangelism without stepping on your brothers’ toes.

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174. i remember talking with one of my college spanish professors who was catholic about my year of mission work in a baptist missionary school in argentina. she bluntly asked, “why did you do that? they’re already christians.”

     i can’t speak for all of south america, but from my experiences in argentina, i would argue that latin american catholicism is distinct from from that of here in the states. the tension and division with protestants is a lot more noticeable. it’s engrained into the culture and the way of life. while i did encounter catholics who were supportive and encouraging towards protestants viewing them as brethren sharing the same message of Christ, i have encountered people who wanted us to leave immediately. they say that they’re catholic, and that’s just how it is. they don’t even want to enter a discussion with you about God.

     i never really got to explore catholicism in argentina while i was there. i think i would have gotten into severe trouble with my baptist missionary school. i can (and do) gladly participate in a mass service here in the states on occasion despite some disagreement. i don’t think i would be quite as comfortable if i were to attend in south america, but then again i never have tried.

     my policy when talking with catholics is to point them to Christ. if they are devoted to Christ in their faith in catholic church (which is very capable), then encourage them to continue in it and to look to Christ. if all they know is a cultural catholicism, and have no personal knowledge of Christ, then point them to Him. i’d recommend a protestant church over a catholic, but that’s their choice to make regarding to which tradition they follow Him in.

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175. Excuse me, sir. Are you suggesting that there are people who are Christians in denominations and churches other than my own? This is very dangerous.

     This might actually mean I have to educate myself as to what they really believe and not just what my preacher told me they believe. This might mean I will need to get familiar with things like the RCC Catechism or the Book of Common Prayer or some other crazy thing.

     Don’t you know that I don’t have time for this? I just got my latest program shipped from Nashville complete with detailed instructions. If I just do what it says I can get all those “unreached” Cathlicks and the like to come down the isle in my church, shake my hand, and make a decision. We had five hundred decisions for Christ last year alone. If this keeps up our 200 seat auditorium just won’t be big enough. It’s already half full!

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176. Joe: Same with Thomas Howard, and Ratzinger.

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177. I edited it. I did use it, and it was a bit over the top. But not much.

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178. A great book on the whole Q is Ralph Martin’s “The Catholic Church at the End of An Age” (Ignatius). Anyone who thinks Catholics can’t be faithful believers needs to read Martin–any of his excellent books. They will be stunned.

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179. Sure it is bigorty, and what culture, religious or national, doesn’t entertain at least a degree of bigotry. The word today is so loaded it is hard to utter it without people acting like you called them a four letter word. But while it may be bigotry and ignorant, it can be well-intended and have good results. Like you said, many many Catholics AND Evangelicals are cultural believer only. The way I look at it, if it takes and Evangelical presentation of Christianity to reach a pagan Catholic, so be it. Frank Sheed wrote back in 1971 in “The Church and I” that we (Catholics) should be grateful for Protestants, since so many refuse to take anything from the hands of the Catholic Church. Even more true today, and as Evangelicalism festers, also true for the reverse.

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180. Byron:

     Where did our host use the term “ugly bigotry”?

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181. iMonk said:
     “But does it ever occur to anyone to ask if South America is the only place we find “syncretism?” That’s practicing Christianity and the local religion at the same time. Hmmmm?

     I believe I’ve seen that a bit closer to home. We call it the Prosperity “Gospel” here. Or the “culture war.” or “Christian politics.””

     Left out the megachurches.
     Admitedly a pet peeve of mine since I regrettably helped foster the career path of one of the luminaries but they are just as insidious and engulfed with the mixture of some type of Christian language with American culture.

     Leading the sheep to slaughter but making big bucks.

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182. I don’t know what else to call the attitude that was prevalent in the US up to and including the election of JFK, but if it wasn’t bigotry, what is it?

     I understand that religious differences aren’t bigotry, but the decision that a believer in the same Jesus, the same trinity and the same creed is not a Christian is a pretty big deal. I think it’s a big deal when anyone treats or announces other Christians as lost.

     ms

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183. Actually, I think “bigotry” is a fairly descriptive term for how an awful lot of people feel about Catholics.

     bigâ‹…otâ‹…ry
      
      /ˈbɪgətri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [big-uh-tree] Show IPA Pronunciation
     –noun, plural -ries.
     1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one’s own.

     You guys are being silly if you think that considering Catholics to be non-Christian and our church to be anti-Christian doesn’t constitute “complete intolerance”.

     Bigotry is a strong word with a strong meaning. It applies. We’re not in the sanctuary, guys – there’s no reason to pretend to be PC about this stuff.

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184. JohnB5200:

     I agree.

     I’d also say that a good many of the evangelicals I know are syncretists. They combine Christianity and various forms of non-Christian idolatrous and pagan religions.

     In fact, some of the largest churches and ministries in the country combine Christianity and the worship of money.

     So let’s be fair. We’re pretty unreached ourselves, and more of than a few of the “unreached” are quite serious followers of Jesus Christ.

     MS

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185. Michael, I would withdraw the phrase “ugly bigotry” and substitute “invincibly deliberate ignorance” as a more accurate characterization of what you are describing.

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186. The footnote quote from the IMB website regarding Catholics in South America is –

     “Many of these Catholics practice syncretism – a mixture of religions such as Catholicism and animism – or do not attend church at all.”

     Keyword – MANY. NOT ALL.

     Living in a city dominated by Latin American-Catholicism (not American-Catholicism)I think that “many” is entirely accurate and reasonable.

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187. I spent all 18 years of my life as a minor in an AG church and never noticed any sentiments about Catholicism, negative or positive, for most of my time there. But as I got older and started paying attention, I developed a keen awareness of the impression in the church that Catholics aren’t Christians.

     I distinctly remember a sermon where a Marine who had spent time in the middle east was giving a ‘testimony’ about his experiences there. He said he and his buddy were trying to evangelize some of the local Iraqis (which is illegal) who they assumed were muslims. One of the Iraqis said “But sir, I am a Catholic!” with an excited smile. The marine replied to him “Like that’s any better than being muslim..” I was heartbroken to hear such ignorance, and to think of it’s impression on that Iraqi man.

     I also remember a lady from the church who went on her own little missions trips to Croatia. She reported back about all the Catholicism there, and how terrible it was that so many people were confused into thinking they were saved.

     How sad that one part of the body is so ready to say to another part that it doesn’t really belong.

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188. Though I follow your blog and usually agree, Michael, I’ll be the voice of dissent here. Not totally, by any means; as usual, you make many good points. But “ugly bigotry”? We do ourselves nor our cause any credit when we throw out pejoratives like that needlessly. Can we not have a reasoned discussion without resorting to name-calling?

     First, the disclaimers: yes, evangelicalism in this country isn’t in the best of shape. No, we can’t be the final judges of anyone’s salvation. Yes, there are many born-again Catholics. No, not every person who calls himself “evangelical” is born again. I could go on and on and find agreement.

     But what I object to is labeling this well-meaning attempt at getting the gospel out “ugly bigotry”. The “solas” still mean something to many of us, Michael, and there are many of us convinced that the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t represent a church faithful to the faith once delivered. Yes, I know that cuts close to home for you, and I’m sorry, but my point is that that is an honest belief, one held without prejudice, by many. Maybe “unreached” isn’t a great word to use; we could have a legitimate discussion on the use of that term, and particularly as relates to the RCC. Perhaps it’s insensitive, I don’t know.

     But when you speak of “ugly bigotry”, it seems to me like you’re leveling a charge against the motives of people who genuinely want to see people come to faith in Christ, and we as followers of Christ, while being willing to call a spade a spade (frankly, one of the things we don’t do enough of) had better make darn sure that it’s a spade in the first place. And we’d better be charitable in the way we go about it.

     Can you not think of other, less egregious, motives on the part of sincere people in labeling the map as they do? I sure can. I have found, in 20+ years of ministry, that I get into trouble assuming things about people–something you’ve done here, Michael. I got an email from a lady yesterday whom I’ve never met, and she described herself as a “strong Christian”. I don’t assume she has any idea what she’s talking about, though she may, but when I meet with her, I’m not going to take her profession at face value without digging deeper (and the rest of her email gave me cause to dig!). Why would I assume that a person who is RCC is “reached”, when I’m not willing to assume that of people who have some “evangelical” pedigree? Am I then “bigoted” against everybody?

     Make your point, Michael; fine. But turn down the rhetoric on this one, because “bigot” is an ugly word, and you do yourself no credit when you employ it so cavalierly and loosely.

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189. Clark, regarding South American Catholicism, I think you’re falling off. While there may be a few places in hard-to-get-to South America (you mentioned Peru, and so lets say the Andes) where Catholicism is saturated in quite a bit of local flavor, it’s still the same religion. A Catholic from the mountains wouldn’t necessarily feel out of place in a church in the city. The Mass is the same. Its not a big deal.

     It’s the same faith, no more necessarily estranged from the heart of the Gospel than, say, East Kentucky Baptists are.

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190. As new work with attachment to the SBC we had a missionary come to speak one Sunday. He proceeded to say that our area is full of unreached people6.7 million of them. That is the number of Catholics. He was talking about our parents, out children, our loved ones. Look, if we are known by our fruit there are members of many denominations are far from the vine. It is possible to be lost in any building with any sign in front of us. We love the missionary, but he will not be invited again.

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191. There’s something almost surreal about this blog being monitored by someone to report back on you. Weird. — Tim

     Not so weird. There’s a lot of self-appointed “Heresy Hunters” and “Witchfinders-General” out there.

     My writing partner (a country preacher in rural PA) has to constantly take precautions to keep from being “monitored” by the local Church Ladies (including logging onto his office system and/or going through his papers); he almost got canned in the uproar when one discovered he was posting in LiveJournal.

     And an associate on a Christian Genre Writers’ forum recently described a three-year stalking ordeal (phone harassment, bad-mouthing him to his boss/trying to get him fired, surprise home-invasion “visits”, stalking friends and family to “warn” and “Save” them from his heresy) by some Heresy Hunter who claimed “the Gift of Spiritual Discernment” and had locked onto him for some unknown reason.

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192. The way it’s phrased in some parts of my denomination is that people need to move from Catholicism to ‘Biblical Christianity’. Biblical Christianity being code for Calvinism.

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193. I hate to say it, but it’s not just South America that’s on the SBC radar, it’s Canada too… The best part? We’re talking about Canada. No fool’n, Canada.

     The Great White North, Eh?

     Sounds like some SBCs have gotten their idea of Canada from watching Strange Brew, South Park, or something.

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194. Yep, nothing like attacking Constantinople on the way to the Holy Land, is there? There are people inside every brand name of church, including mine, who are not Christian in belief or practice. But the IMB stuff struck me as very similar to a Chick tract, only with up to date graphics.

     And iMonk, your italicized warning had me laughing out loud before I ever got to the meat of your post. Classic!

     Sean

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195. With the increasingly strict guidelines about whom the IMB is going to support, how is that going to solve one of the main problems in South America, the ratio of church leaders to the people.

     One of the problems is that the priests are stretched very thin. I wish it weren’t so.

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196. I think that our Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican and Orthodox friends could make a case that, based on our own criteria, we’re pretty “unreached” in Bible Belt America. — IMonk

     Especially when you factor in a “once Saved, always Saved” attitude. Walk the aisle, say the magic words, and you never have to darken the door of a church again — you’re SAVED!

     We need more of the Gospel around the world, in every denomination and among every people group. And that starts with those Christians who think it’s their job to judge whether other Christians really are Christians at all. — IMonk

     Remember the “Council of Jerusalem” in the First Century AD, AKA that knock-down drag-out in the Book of Acts? The one that decided whether the goyim could be allowed into the Church or whether converts would have to become Jews in all ways and forms first?

     The “Judaizers” (the losing side in that fight) were those who thought their job was to “judge whether goyisha Christians were really Christians” and who voted “NO!”

     Regarding syncretism, I live in the Mecca of New Age Spirituality (an island in Puget Sound). — JMJ

     I live in Southern California, which I thought was the Mecca of the Shirley Mac Laine types. Glad it’s moved up there and away from here…

     There are folks who cringe when I say I’m Lutheran. I’ve had Evangelical types try to share the gospel with me when they found out. — Meoip

     At least you Lutherans are Protestant. Imagine the reaction they have to us Catholics (aka Romish Papists with Satanic Death Cookies). I’ve heard Calvary Chapelites “witness” directly from Victorian-era anti-Catholic hate literature; the guy who used to pastor Calvary Chapel West Covina was a rabid anti-Catholic who even denounced Quinceanos (a coming-of-age celebration for Mexican girls) because it was linked to Romish Papism (Confirmation) — and he was ethnic Mexican himself!

     And you know the real kicker? The only reason these Bible-Believing Christians (TM) have a Bible in the first place is because the bishops of my Church prevented all the Shirley Mac Laines from rewriting it in their own image back when years were numbered in the low three digits! If it weren’t for us Catholics, they wouldn’t even have a Gospel! It would have been rewritten into some fashionable Second- or Third Century occult/syncretic fad, anchored into that time and place, then gotten old-fashioned and died from old age as time passed on.

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197. I hate to say it, but it’s not just South America that’s on the SBC radar, it’s Canada too. Some light reading would include:

     http://www.cnbc.ca/national-ministries/the-history-of-the-ccsb

     The best part? We’re talking about Canada. No fool’n, Canada; a nation that has quite a variety of Baptist expressions representing the typical evangelical/denominational spectrum (no less than 5 by my last count).

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198. Theres lots of irony going on here. The SBC wants us to pray for South America and raise support for missionaires to go there. Their stance is that the majority of South America is “unreached.” The first irony is that the vast majority of South Americans nations are mostly Catholic. The Catholicism of South American, however, is not the Catholicism of the Vatican in Rome. A Catholic church in Peru is lightyears away from one in New York. Michael addresses the issue of syncretism in his post, and kind of segue into how we’ve often done the same thing with evangelicalism. The Gudalupe of Mexico is not the Virgin Mary. The Catholic Church of the time (15 – 1600’s) found it easy to blend local religions, many with some type of mother goddess, with Catholicism. I need to wrap this up: if the baby in the manger is anything less than Immanuel, then you don’t have “God with us.” That means you’re unreached. I believe my Catholic brothers and sisters are Christians, while at the same time recognize that those in South America may not be my brothers and sisters in Christ.

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199. I believe I’ve seen that a bit closer to home. We call it the Prosperity “Gospel” here. Or the “culture war.” or “Christian politics.”

     And the first and last of those have extreme variants that are indigenous to South America.

     The flow of syncretic influences goes the other way too – check out G12, which seems to be appearing in Pentecostal Churches over in London. Blending hokey management techniques, a marian like devotion to ‘the cross’, and various forms of works righteousness.

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200. I used to teach Spanish at an Evangelical high school. We used a curriculum sold by a well-known publisher in South Carolina. In the advanced textbook, many of the stories were about Baptist missionaries traveling to South America and converting Catholics to Christianity. It was extremely bigoted.

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201. Being a Lutheran who went to an Evangelical college and attends and Evangelical church I hear these sentiments all the time. There are folks who cringe when I say I’m Lutheran. I’ve had Evangelical types try to share the gospel with me when they found out. It’s sad that in a move to consolidate power they Evangelicals have made an us vs them mentality.

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202. The position isn’t necessarily bigotry, but the way it is worked out, promoted, etc can be bigoted.

     Pre Vatican I anti-Protestant polemics are generally responding to violent anti-Catholic polemics. At least in American history.

     Listen, folks, I’m not going to have a conversation here that proceeds on the idea that my wife isn’t a Christian or that she doesn’t consider me to be one or that the CCC and VII don’t say what they say.

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203. Dave D:

     You couldn’t be more wrong on that one brother. Trust me. I’ve lived this for a year.

     Read the Catechism. Read the Vatican Document on Ecumenism. We are Christians, united to Christ and imperfectly in fellowship with the church. The RCC recognizes the gifts, callings, strengths and ministries of the Spirit in Protestantism.

     We are considered separated brethren.

     Peace

     MS

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204. according to the catechism:

     Every man who is ignorant of the gospel of Christ and of his Church but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity (CCC 1260).

     As explained to me, the Catholic Church is an instrument of salvation. It is not a guarantee of salvation, or damnation for that matter.

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205. There’s something almost surreal about this blog being monitored by someone to report back on you. Weird.

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206. DaveD,

     I think that the post Vatican 2 position is that protestants are “lapsed brethren” or something close to that.

     But my question is this, if the position that Catholics aren’t Christians is bigotry……no ugly bigotry, what about the position that protestants aren’t Christians (which was pretty much the position of every pope from Luther to Vatican 2)? Was that bigotry as well?

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207. “79% of South Americans are Roman Catholics”

     Only 79%? Unacceptable! Darn it, whoever is in charge of overseeing the implementation of the Secret Plan for Global Domination had better get his skates on – does the Pope have to do *everything* himself? Don’t they realise how busy he is with ensuring the European Union is in place to become the One World Government in time for the Beast to be crowned?

     (It’s all in Revelation, you know! http://www.escapeallthesethings.com/pope-benedict-xvi-ratzinger-antichrist-false-prophet.htm )

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208. “But if the default position is that Catholics aren’t Christians..”

     That’s fine. After all, the Catholic church teaches that Protestants aren’t saved. “No salvation outside the (Roman Catholic) church and all that.

     DD

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209. I personally like Matt 13, and the wheat and tares and allowing Christ to do the sorting out.

     Regarding syncretism, I live in the Mecca of New Age Spirituality (an island in Puget Sound). Since I work in healthcare I’ve seen a very strong movement within the Christian community, especially the more charismatic branches to embrace Eastern medicine. This is far more than acupuncture.

     I had a long conversation with a youth minister from the Church of God last week. She is using some type of energy-field manipulation for treating her son’s ADD. She described a very pantheistic view that we are all blobs of energy, or spirits that are part of the unifying energy field of the spiritual universe . . .or God, or Holy Spirit (she said all the terms mean the same thing). So she believes that disease happens, including her son’s ADD, when there is some type of impedance between our own spiritual sphere and that of the mother spirit . . . or God, Jesus or Holy Spirit “if you want to use Christian terms.”

     Her ways of treating disease is to clear up the impedance through meditation, incense, prayer, magnets, and a variety of other techniques. So . . . what the hell is this? Is this Christian or some syncretistic blend?

     Despite my disagreement with her illness paradigm (mine has more to do with science, illness the result of the general fall of Adam through flawed genetics, infections, etc.) I would be very hesitant to call her the “unreached.” God can sort it out.

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210. Mr. Spencer,

     You are a heritic sir. Don’t you know that the Pope is the Antichrist? Or was that Oprah? Osama? Shoot, I can’t keep track. True indeed I am always arguing for my Catholic brothers and sisters. Before we call anyone a nonbeliever we need to first ask “what exactly do you believe” we may be suprised when we find out it is the finished work of God in Christ!

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211. hey, do you want to see the “progress of the gospel” so far? – there are plenty of maps available letting you know how effective Christ has been geographically –

     http://www.joshuaproject.net/great-commission-maps.php

     darn it, the “emerging church” is already taking over way too much of the world if you ask me – looks like Scandinavia is far gone and now South America is being threatened, we’d better get on that

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212. I bet that “No longer reached” is probably a compliment compared to what most Baptists call people who convert to Catholisim.

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213. Amen, amen and amen.

     “In simplest terms, this means that the vast majority of people in South America are not Christians and need to be evangelized, and one of the reasons for this is that 79% of South Americans are Roman Catholics who, according to the IMB web site, “practice syncretism” and “rarely attend church.”

     There is no doubt that Catholicism and local traditions and rituals are intertwined and imbedded in the culture. And this will continue whether we swap out Catholicism for Pentecostalism or some other “ism”. Haiti comes to mind. A fundamentalist acquaintance once pointed out the mixing of voodoo and Christianity and how the Catholic Church condoned it to maintain membership. In reality the local customs can be nearly impossible to eradicate and there is documented history of the tactics tried over the centuries.

     My point is that it is a very complex issue. I like what Tom Huguenot wrote above:
     “It’s not only about South American Catholics. It’s also about European Catholics and, for that matter, European Mainline Protestants and even Evangelicals that do not comply to the American model.” We evangelize and expect conformity based on our own American view/lifestyle/outlook. That just does not work in every culture, or even every socioeconomic level.

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214. It’s not only about South American Catholics. It’s also about European Catholics and, for that matter, European Mainline Protestants and even Evangelicals that do not comply to the American model.
     But, of course, since missions in Europe is expensive and basically “doesn’t work”, I doubt you will see a map of the Old Continent in your cafeteria any time soon…

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215. Ah, yes, what did Jesus mean in Matthew 7:13-14 in those words about the narrow gate? Do some of these folks that you mention see themselves as the gatekeepers? Well, of course they do, but how absurd–see also Matthew 25:31-46 on who is following and serving Jesus.

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