Advent With Ted the Loser

99 thoughts on “Advent With Ted the Loser”

1. Micheal, I have interest on your opinion about spousal abuse (physical) and divorce for this reason. Kind Regards-

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3. My long journey has awakened me to the futility of trying to free myself of my sinfulness, of trying to make myself worthy of God’s love when He already loves me as I am, and patiently waits for me to become willing to let Him free me from my seemingly endless imperfections by removing the causes hiding in my Secret Place. For my sinfulness is a only a symptom, not the problem. Only God can deal with the problem. No man, not even me, can through his own will do this. It is a God job and I am not God (though I have often acted as if I am God). One begins by really checking out the log in his own eye before pointing at the speck in the other’s eye. I really enjoy examining that log in my own eye for I love truth and find it is always more interesting and amusing than trying to judge the speck in the other’s eye. So many of us seem to have a desperate need to avoid log inspection in favor of speck spotting. As for Evangelicals, Catholics, and the rest, they are all churches in progress and should not be judged by what we see now nor their past. The Holy Spirit is at work in them (and among non-Christians) to bring them together into one community of God’s children one day. Each of their members is a child of God and loved accordingly no matter how far they fall from the lofty tower they attained by means of their self-will. We really ought to pray together to advance the arrival of that day. In any event, the Founding Fathers of this blessed nation knew that putting trust in any human or human organization is vanity, a chase after the wind. (Duh!)That is why on the Great Seal of the U.S. prominently displayed on the dollar bill we see the words “In God we Trust”. No fools they. In conclusion, I suggest we all spend more quiet time and energy learning what it is that Jesus came to reveal by mining the scriptures at every level of the many levels of understanding to be found in them. And, then benefiting ourselves by thinking and acting as suggested therein.
   Sorry, to go on and on but it is fun.

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4. Dan and Treebeard,
   This is a minor thing, but it makes a difference and pertains to this discussion. The woman didn’t call herself a dog. Jesus called her a dog and she didn’t correct Him. Go check it out in Matthew 15 or Mark 7. She is commended by Christ for agreeing with His assessment of the situation. In the same way, I have to see myself as God sees me before I can come to Him. Struggling with sin is the same for everyone. We may not struggle with the same sin as the next person, but no sin or struggle with it is “harder” than any other. It is a struggle of viewpoint. Do we trust our view of things or God’s view?

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5. “The reason I appreciate iMonk’s critique of the contemporary evangelical church, in the context of Ted’s fall, is that you can be fooled into thinking all is well and good when you are in the midst of evangelical culture.”

   And if you’re not evangelical, you’re guaranteed to never be fooled into thinking all is well and good?

   I find this a strange contention, for two reasons: I am constantly aware of my need for Christ’s intervention in my life, as an evangelical (who hates the label–I prefer fellow believer), and indeed, I hear that teaching from the pulpit of my church as well. And secondly, it’s really specious to believe that because one is Catholic, one will never be deceived into thinking that all is well and good. It’s part of the human condition to deceive ourselves. There are many men and women of all stripes of Christendom who have believed and thought that all was well and good, and yet they will hear from Christ, “I never knew you.” Being a Catholic, or being an evangelical, is no guarantee that we are more keenly aware of our need for Christ than by being in any other branch of Christendom.

   What about all of those priests who held secrets such as Ted Haggard did, for so long, and didn’t reveal them? Catholicism wasn’t their savior–Christ, was, and still is. Didn’t they lie to themselves and others, just as much as Ted Haggard did? It’s very strange to point out Ted Haggard as an example of what’s wrong with evangelicalism when so many priests lived in similar ways, hiding their struggles. It doesn’t wash. Ted Haggard tells us less about evangelicalism, or Catholicism, than he tells us about the human condition. The bottom line is this: we need to love those priests, and Ted Haggard, with the love of Christ, and recognize that it is His love that allowed them to fall, and there but by the grace of God go I.

   God is not limited by denominational divisions in order to bring His children to Himself. There have been plenty of evangelicals who will be welcomed into His arms, and plenty sadly that thought “all was well,” and He will say, “I never knew you.” The same can be said of Catholics as well.

   I have lived a life long struggle with same sex attraction, and so I know the daily struggle of Ted Haggard. I suppose that’s the reason why this post drew my ire so much. I find it sad that Ted Haggard has battled with such a difficult demon, and I thank God that He continues to pursue him, and I see in Ted Haggard the sign of God’s grace. It’s abhorrent to me that his story has been used as a veiled attack at evangelicalism.

   But I’ve said enough as is.

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6. Dan,
   Thanks for your reply. I understand better now where you are coming from.

   (An aside to iMonk: I sincerely hope that this is on topic, and my conversation with Dan is not an example of hijacking this thread. One of the things I enjoy about your blog is the dialogue that is often provoked in your comment threads.)

   What I understood from iMonk’s original post, and the comments that followed, is that Ted was now coming to grips with who he really was (and is). Ted’s word for that was “loser.” I would equate “loser” with “wretched man,” as Paul called himself in Romans 7. The fact is, in some regard, we are all losers, in the sense that we cannot fulfill God’s law, and that we cannot fulfill even our own standards. We are not what we should be or what we want to be. But once we realize we are truly “wretched” and hopeless men, “losers” if you will, then we can go on to realize what we have in Christ (Romans 8). There is now no condemnation, and we have a new law of life that delivers us from sin.

   The reason I appreciate iMonk’s critique of the contemporary evangelical church, in the context of Ted’s fall, is that you can be fooled into thinking all is well and good when you are in the midst of evangelical culture. You can forget that you are a “wretched man” (or a “loser”) in urgent need of salvation, not just once for all, but daily. Someone like Ted Haggard obviously was not experiencing what he was preaching. He railed against the very sins he was practicing, while riding the wave of evangelical popularity. All the evangelical stuff was not really working for him. And it is a word of love to Ted to make the strong point, “Don’t go back to that. Don’t do what evangelicals always do and then say you’re alright. You need something real, something deeper. You need to be honest with yourself, and find Christ in your new, humble condition.”

   Specifically, you pointed out this quote from iMonk’s post:
   “And some of the things you’ve said since your fall? How you were fixed with a few sessions of counseling? Not good, Ted. Not good. A very bad place. Avoid it.”

   Then you ask, “Where’s the love in this?” I would respond, “There is a lot of love in that. That shows far more love than letting Ted fool himself again. To allow Ted to think he is “fixed” is not love, it is enabling him to live a lie.”

   You then add, “Once again, condescension of the utmost degree. Would any here actually say such a thing to Ted Haggard?” If I had the opportunity, yes, I would say it to his face. I would even be a little angry about it, because his public fall has hurt the cause of Christ. It is not condescending to tell a person to stop fooling himself. Rather, it is condescending to pretend everything is okay.

   I agree with you that Ted is not really a loser, he is a child of God. The love God has for him in Christ is eternal and unwavering. Ted will be wonderful and beautiful in the next age, and these negative things will be forgotten. But in this age, when we struggle against sin, recognizing the depths of our inabilities is a very healthy aspect of the Christian life, because it points us to the Lamb on the throne.

   On a personal note, I began this morning telling the Lord I loved Him, asking Him to forgive me for who I am, and thanking Him for what He has done for me. I know I need Him. The reason I know I need Him is that I honestly believe I am a loser, a wretched man. I know that from experience. I don’t think the Lord disagrees with me when I recognized that I am a loser. On my own, I cannot be what I should be. But when I recognize this and tell Him so, there’s love, forgiveness, mercy, and grace. And I find then that I am much closer to what I should be than what I was before.

   My apologies to you and iMonk for the long ramble.

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7. Sorry Treebeard, I won’t lighten up. Reading the Internet Monk write “Loser. YES!,” followed by a chastisement of the evangelical revival story, complete with “movie and band,” shows that this post was less about Ted Haggard and more about the evangelical movement. It wasn’t motivated out of love, but rather was a bludgeon against evangelicalism. To use one man’s fall as an apologetic tool loses sight of the sacred involvement of Christ in one man’s life.

   And this:

   “And some of the things you’ve said since your fall? How you were fixed with a few sessions of counseling? Not good, Ted. Not good. A very bad place. Avoid it.”

   Where’s the love in this? Once again, condescension of the utmost degree. Would any here actually say such a thing to Ted Haggard?

   As to Ted’s proclamation that he was a loser, because one labels himself as something doesn’t mean that it is true, or that we should use that label for him, or for ourselves. As to Christ and the woman who called herself a gentile dog, Christ died for her. She is no dog. As to the man who said, “Be merciful, for I am a sinner,” he spoke the truth, but admitting that we are fallen creatures is a very different thing than calling ourselves losers, a lie if there ever was one.

   Ted is no loser, and nor is anyone on this earth. Labels mean something, and the truth of who we are as children of God demands that we view ourselves as God sees us. Indeed, we are all sinners, in need of a merciful savior. But if Christ were here today, would he ever call you, me, or Ted Haggard a loser? By no means would he do so, and so yes, even though Ted said it himself, I personally find the basic premise of this post problematic.

   Overall, it seems that under the guise of wooing someone to the seat of supreme grace and love, chastising someone for movies, bands, and Disneyland revivals is not going to do the trick. It’s not a post for Ted–it’s a post for anti-evangelicals to feel smug about the rightness of their belief. It’s hogwash that this post, and this thread are actually motivated out of love for Ted Haggard. It’s just a vehicle for anti-evangelical rhetoric, painted over with a shellac of charity towards Ted Haggard that can be scraped away with a toothpick.

   Love the man, a man made in the image of God, just like the all of us. I think of C.S. Lewis and his essay, the Weight of Glory. If we were to see Ted Haggard in his resurrected state, (and we all believe that he will be resurrected, don’t we, even if he happens to like movies and bands at church?), we would be sorely tempted to bow down and worship at his feet. That’s the TRUTH of who he is, in light of God’s love and grace, and in the light of eternity.

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8. Lighten up, Dan.

   The word “loser” came from Ted Haggard’s own mouth, so the letter was a follow-up based on his own description of himself.

   As sinners, we are all worse than losers. As redeemed and regenerated believers, we are all valuable and glorious, including Mr. Haggard. But sometimes you must realize you are a loser – i.e. you can’t make it on your own – before you realize what you have in Christ.

   When a woman called herself a dog seeking to eat the crumbs from the table, the Lord didn’t correct her. She was a Gentile dog, and the Lord commended her for her faith, and “fed” her. The man who wailed and said, “Be merciful to me, Lord, a sinner,” went away justified.

   So Ted is a loser, and so are you, and so am I. Those of us who know we are losers recognize we need a Savior. This post which so offends you was actually rejoicing that Ted now can find Christ in a way he never has before.

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9. I just happened upon this blog entry from a link from a friend’s blog. I agree that the place where we are ready to receive the grace of God is when we realize that we are in full need of Jesus Christ, in all of our miseries. It’s clear that when we “hit rock bottom,” it’s there where Christ desires to enter into our brokenness and show himself strong.

   A lot of the people in this thread really wish that Ted Haggard would read this, but I do not think that it’s a letter filled with love. I feel that you are using one man’s very public and horrific fall as nothing more than a bully pulpit for attacking evangelicalism, and I find these words and this letter to be the very opposite of Christ’s call to love others. It’s no question that Christ will, and can use this in Ted Haggard’s life, if Ted is willing, and I suspect that at the end of his life, Ted will view this very public fall much the same way as we view Adam’s original fall: felix culpa! O happy fault that merited such and so great a Redeemer! Ted Haggard’s public fall was a severe mercy, done by the hand of his loving redeemer and Savior.

   Despite his self moniker of “loser,” he is no “loser.” He is a prodigal son, like us all, wayfarers who have journeyed far from home. He is no loser, for Christ deigned to die for him! There is none on this earth that are losers–we are all more glorious in our existence than all of the stars in the universe combined, and Christ’s death on our behalf shows our worth more than anything, and indeed Ted Haggard’s very public fall shows his worth in a way that the world does not understand: Christ valued him enough to allow him to fall, and thus fall into His loving arms.

   I find this post offensive, and indeed I hope that Ted Haggard doesn’t read it, and it’s an awful thing to use one man’s tragic and painful fall from grace, that was done by the hand of our loving God and Father, to be used as a bully pulpit for attacking fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, which evangelicals are. Perhaps they are mistaken on many issues, but why use the fall of Ted Haggard as a billy club to attack evangelicals? We should fall on our knees in prayer for Ted Haggard, and say, “but by the grace of God go I.” And we should never call anyone, not least ourselves, losers. That’s from the pit of hell, and an utter lie of our enemy.

   It’s sad to see a post like this be so lauded, when all it seems to me is a gloating post that says, “Aha! See how one man fell! See…they really don’t get it, do they?” It seems to me that it’s very un-Christlike to use one man’s fall as an apologetic tool that says, “Gotcha, evangelicals–oh, we gotcha!”

   Just pray for the man.

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10. I think Friscocan might agree with me that there are more real miracles happening every day in 12-Step groups than virtually anywhere else. It is such an effective spiritual program that churches, bureaucrats and mental health professionals send their otherwise “hopeless” causes there. And all of these institutionalized human service organizations have tried and are trying to incorporate the principles of the Program into their own programs. But it doesn’t work.

    I have come to the belief that it is because God will no longer (ever since the rending of the curtain over the entrance to the Holy of Holies “from top to bottom) be contained in anyone’s box. And so, anyone who, like Mr. Haggard did, holds himself up as an example of true spirituality better make sure he has done a “searching and fearless moral inventory” and all the rest as illuminated by the 12-Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, or your Higher Power might just make a public example of you of how not to be, for your own good and the good of those who have followed you into spiritual and moral error.

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11. Friscosan-

    Amen! to the part in parenthesis.

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12. I love you, Mr. Internet Monk.

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13. Boy! A friend connected me to this thread but I just can’t catch up with all things said here. What I do know is
    talking about it does not work for me. I have to do what Jesus tells me to do, judging what I do by the fruits and self-correcting as I go along. This is pretty much what I learned from the 12 steps and traditions I believe were given to the disgraced and fallen by Jesus since they sum up everything He taught in the NT and before that in the OT and continues to teach to those humble enough to ask, seek, knock. The disgraced Pastor need only follow the directions in the 12 steps to find his way out of the mess he got into living and thinking his way. That is what Job ended up doing to change his life. Any fool can do it. Merry Christmas and a spiritually prosperous New Year. (And, do pray for God’s, will not ours, to be done here on Earth so it too could be Heaven.)

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14. … he is actually one step on the road to healing (got interrupted).

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15. [I work in a very secular environment. In days gone by, people would be able to look at me, and see who I am, and say “there is something different about Mike that I find interesting, I want to find out more.” Now, with the instant world wide exposure of Ted Haggard and the like, people are more apt to say to me, (and this happened very recently)… “Mike, you are an anomaly, because you are not like the Christianity that I see everywhere else.”] – Michael Bell

    I can identify with this one. When the Priest scandals broke in the Catholic Church, all Priests were labeled pedophiles for a time. It was hard to bring up faith if one knew my Catholic background because we couldn’t get past the latest headline. Ted Haggard didn’t help the evangelical cause. Yes we all have our faults and demons. Perhaps he thought he was untouchable, perhaps he thought he could indulge because of his position or perhaps his desire was so strong and he was in a vulnerable place that he justified taking the risk. I guess there are many more pressures when one is in the public eye and vainglory may play its part here.

    But disfunction like this does not just go away with forgiveness. Its a lifetime of work to keep the desire at bay and it may never go away completely. And that, I believe is the point Michael is making – to take the first step and acknowledge – that by being a loser and showing humility …

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16. iMonk, something must be lost in translation here. I dont see anything that Patrick said that looked like an insult.

    However his calls to forgive Mr. Haggard is echoed by me. As far as he being saved, Catholic don’t use those terms, I think he was mocking what evangelicals and other Protestants call “being saved.”

    We are all sinful, Mr. iMonk even when posting on the internet.

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17. OK. There is another discussion going on here, using my bandwidth to promote an entirely different view of God. I don’t have time to interact with this, so the thread is closed.

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18. Paul never denied his sinful tendencies or his failure to resist giving in to them. There was the “thorn in the flesh” and that it wasn’t removed but that “my grace is sufficient unto thee” and “my strength is made perfect in weakness” and so “I now boast of my weaknesses.” And then he spoke of the “law in his body that wars against the Spirit” so that “I find myself doing what I would not” and that “it is no longer me who is sinning.”

    Again, this was written to Jewish converts. Amongst moderns only an Orthodox Jew could truly appreciate the freedom that the saving grace of faith in the crucified Messiah brings to the soul of one who has a fundamentalist view of how it is we are to please God. God doesn’t now (nor did He ever) turn up His nose — or hold His nose — against a sinful human being, just self-righteous ones. The entire point of the Law given to the people of Israel was to illuminate for all time that “it is mercy that God wants and not sacrifice.” After Paul went exhastiviely into the whole purpose of the Law and the Prophets, he points out the way of love “against which there is no law.”

    After the Jews finally got it all down on paper in cohesive form during the Babylonian captivity and codified what they thought it all meant, their Messiah showed up and told them in no uncertain terms that they had gotten it all wrong. So the “religious” had him killed, and by doing so fulfilled the mission and the message of the Messiah, not just for the Jews, but for the entire world.

    And we still think that the Father is the moody taskmaster, who changes His opinion of us with our every thought and gesture ….

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19. Instead, Ted will always be the disgraced pastor, no matter what message he comes back with. That’s not really mercy, is it?

    Yes, I think it is mercy. It is mercy to him, never to allow him again to be put in such a position of authority or popularity. He should live out his life in humility, dependant upon the Lord, recognizing that his public ministry is over. Discipline can be a great mercy.

    Needless to say, the Lord is the Lord, so if He calls Ted again some day to something more public, including his experience of failure and repentance and restoration, then that should be honored. But to be honest, I don’t think Ted was called in the first place. I think he was just a bloviator. He was put in a position that he could not handle. His fall is probably true salvation to him. (Hence Michael’s wonderful letter to Ted.)

    Concerning sin, one of my favorite verses of Paul is this one: It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all. (1 Tim. 1:15)

    The apostle Paul, after believing in Christ, and after a life of ministry, still considered himself “the foremost” among sinners. That to me means he was well aware of his sinful condition, despite (or perhaps because of) whatever sanctification he had experienced. If Paul was the foremost among sinners, I don’t think we are far behind.

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20. Patrick Lynch,

    What I’d like to know from the other Catholics on the thread is how your name calling (which I’ve now edited out or deleted four times) represents your RC view of the Gospel?

    If Ted read this thread, it’s pretty clear that he has no prospects with your team.

    It’s also clear that you don’t think the guy can be saved because he’s not becoming a good person. OK. That’s not the Gospel anyway.

    “I thank you Father that I am not like other men” or “Have mercy on me, a sinner.” Who went home justified?

    peace

    ms

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21. The problem with someone like Haggard now calling himself a loser is that it reveals what he really thought about most of the people he was preaching to and were supporting his grand lifestyle all those years.

    The point I’m trying to make about Jesus’ sinlessness is that Paul only points it out to show that He was the “Lamb of God without spot or blemish.” But the “morality police” of the day in no way shape or form considered Him thus. To them He looked just like Haggard’s lover.

    How did Paul know this about Jesus, anyway? He never spent one day with Him while He walked the earth. So it wasn’t experiential knowledge.

    About chairs — you can sit on a coffee table — that doesn’t make it a chair. “Perfection” in a chair, or anything else, depends not just on it’s intended purpose but in what it is intended to convey by it’s very being. If the contract called for a plain wooden seat without padding or arms, and the artisan delivered an ornate bishop’s throne, that would not be perfect, now would it.

    And as per running with scissors not being “grievous” it definitely is in its potential for harm. The whole point is to keep it and other risky behavior from becoming a habit because of therisk, not because mommy just doesn’t like the looks of fast moving sharp objects.

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22. At some point, the God allowed his community (the Jews) to flog or outcast their people for sins they committed, both against the witness of their community and against God.

    When people preach against the evils of legalism, I TOTALLY see the God-given ability for a pre-New Covenant community to punish as a positive, despite what I deserve.

    If we were able to strip Ted of everything he owns and beat him a hundred times with leather straps and then re-admit him without discussing it, I wonder if the point wouldn’t be clearer. He could take his punishment as a son and not a -Sinner- and we could just leave it at that. Relative-credibility restored, no need for these little existential apologies.

    Instead, Ted will always be the disgraced pastor, no matter what message he comes back with. That’s not really mercy, is it?

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23. Patrick,

    I was greatly saddened when the story broke about Ted Haggard. My immediate thought was, (sarcasm follows) “Great, another reason for my co-workers not to accept Christ.”

    One of the issues of the ever present media that we have is that the people who become the “magazine cover” for Christianity are not the people that most Christians would choose. I work in a very secular environment. In days gone by, people would be able to look at me, and see who I am, and say “there is something different about Mike that I find interesting, I want to find out more.” Now, with the instant world wide exposure of Ted Haggard and the like, people are more apt to say to me, (and this happened very recently)… “Mike, you are an anomaly, because you are not like the Christianity that I see everywhere else.”

    So I am saddened. Saddened that Ted has not only impacted his own witness, but mine as well. Saddened for his family. Saddened for him. Theologically, I don’t have a strong enough grasp on rewards/punishment in the end times to say for certain exactly how God is going to deal with him. I think that I don’t respond more strongly than this, because as iMonk said earlier, it would have a tendency to make me like the Pharisee looking down on the publican.

    Joan Baez once sang (might have been a Bob Dylan song):

    Show me the prison
    Show me the jail,
    Show me the prisoner,
    Who’s life has gone stale.
    And I’ll show you young man,
    With so many reasons why,
    There but for fortune
    Go you and I.

    When thinking about that a bit it makes me much more likely not to condemn those whose lives have gone wrong.

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24. Jason wrote: “what you’ve described here is akin to an AA meeting where all the members are still drunkards – they’re just honest about it. frankly, if the difference between christians and non-christians is that we’re just honest about our sin, then i don’t see the point.”

    This is my concern as well. And quite frankly I find it quite a scary concept.

    I think there is a misunderstanding about what John Wesley believed, which if clarified, would shed some light on the topic. Perfection, is the eyes of John Wesley, was not the same as sinlessness. Instead it comes from the Hebrew word which is translated “perfect”, which has a broader general meaning of “achieving the purpose for which it was made.” A chair made by a wood worker, for example, is perfect not when it is flawless, but when it achieves the purpose for which it was made, that is, to be sat upon.

    As humans, even though we may be Christians, we are flawed human beings. We sin. Dallas Willard, in his book, “The Spirit of the Disciplines”, contends that the reason we find it so easy to slip into sin, is that we do practice that same sort of disciplines that Jesus did, such as consistent withdrawing for times of prayer when facing temptation.

    According to Wesley, perfection comes when, faced with the temptation to sin, you, through the power of the Spirit, chose not to sin. Part of our way to accomplish this is through the disciplines like Jesus did. We will still continue to habitually sin, but when the Holy Spirit reveals to me an area of sin in my life, I have to believe that he also gives me the resources to deal with it. Practicing disciplines in the power of the Spirit – this is how Dallas Willard understands Jesus’ statement that “my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

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25. (keep in mind, I’m not calling “problems” in this thread Problems theologically, I’m just pointing out what gets my ire up as regards this thread’s non-starting lynch-mob.

    Come on, guys – where’s the bigotry and anti-homosexual condescending? Where’s the “Ted Haggard is a horrible example of Pentecostal faith”? How come nobody’s posting their suspicions that the guy isn’t really saved?)

    Ted Haggard is one of those people whose life bothers me. I’ll say it.

    Somebody, tell me how we should deal with false teachers other than by shunning them? Is there a Scripture about our lying,…….hyporcrite leaders that should guide a sound, Christian communal posture as regards them, once they are identified?

    Michael, I hope you don’t moderate me out, but I do understand if this isn’t he discussion you want to have in this thread.

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26. Wow– Freudian slip! In the above comment, I typed “I think God,” when I meant, “I thank God,” but either one is actually appropriate for the sentence! 🙂

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27. Problems I have with this thread include:

    a conceptualization of Jesus who is similar to us “in all ways except sin” that we are expected to be able to relate to sympathetically when it comes to our private shortcomings, the supposed distinction between social sin and private sin (as relates to Ted’s life ostensibly, which I try and fail to relate to my own), and the breezy conflation of grievous sin with “running with scissors” in the eyes of God, so to speak.

    It just seems to me that the vacuum between Ted and God is super-compressed by assuming that he could really be honest (or that we could, when it comes down to it, without serious discipleship Really become honest before God) about the magnitude of his sins and seek redemption, when it seems that just admitting that he is a “loser” is not nearly penance enough.

    If penance, in the past, has amounted to animal sacrifice, sackcloth and ashes, and composing Lamentations, what good is the Evangelical definition of repentance? How “costly” is the grace that comes of it, if someone like myself could access it without noticeably meaning anything for the sake of it?

    I guess this is, in the fullness, why I tend to think the guy is …… He seems more inconvenienced by the awkwardness of the scandal than truly, existentially, sorry for his corrupted nature. I guess his lack of open self-loathing bothers me. Any other Catholics on this thread want to chime in?

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28. Thank you for writing this letter, Michael. I am a 35-year-old man with a college degree and a physical disability. Because of the latter, I am not able to drive a car. I am nowhere near where I would like to be in life, and I’m not talking about being upper-middle class. I’m talking about obtaining and keeping a job that pays a living wage, so that I can even begin to approach a Christian woman whom I’m interested in, knowing that if the day came, I could provide for her, and Lord willing, a family. I am not currently at that place. It is so hard.

    My college degree is slightly helpful in the job market, but the disability and not being able to drive most definitely are *not* helpful. By the world’s standards, and I fear, the standards of even some Christians, I am a loser.

    I will keep striving to be a man who can provide for a potential wife. I hope and pray that I get there, sooner rather than later, if possible. Even if I am always a loser in some peoples’ eyes though, I think God, because as you wrote, Jesus died for losers like us!

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29. michael – virtuous compared to christ.

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30. Junior:

    I believe all traditions teach less than a perfect Gospel. Not another Gospel, but a flawed Gospel.

    I’ve said many times that I am pretty much a Lutheran on the issue of the Gospel itself.
    peace

    ms

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31. what i struggle with is the idea of personal sin versus societal sin. Haggard is a loser but, yes, followers of Jesus were losers. Poor, under-educated, and crushed by the military and economic might of the Roman empire and sold out by the religous establishment.

    I’m not sure what lessons there are to learn from the Haggard saga…except don’t be an evangelical leader with a homophobic agenda and then smoke meth with a gay prostitute.

    As the last eight years come crashing down to a terrible end, why hasven’t evangelical leaders taken responsibility? They are the ones who jumped into bed with republicans and brought forth this economic crisis.

    So Haggard can be forgviven for his private sins, but what about these public sins? Without the likes of Haggard, there might not have been an Iraq War, a looting of the treasury by the financial sector, the lack of a real plan to fight global warming…

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32. What I am coming to is the concept that since the revelation of the Son of God, there is no “Sin” anymore in the classic sense. It has been put to death. But we can still hurt each other. And really, except for the First Commandment, all the others were those kinds of sins.

    I was telling a Jewish friend about this a little while ago. It’s like confessing to your mother that you were running with scissors when she wasn’t looking. The first thing she will want to know is if you or anyone else got hurt. She will then say, “It’s ok then. I’m glad that you told me.”

    It’s ironic that the mother’s attitude toward that kind of disobedience and confession is like the modern Jewish attitude toward sin, and they invented the concept. A rabbi would say, “No harm done. Just do better next time.” It would be a far different matter if someone got hurt in both cases.

    But we Christians don’t really make that distinction.

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33. Michael:

    Thanks for the post. It’s both humbling and encouraging at the same time.

    Question: do you believe Catholicism teaches another Gospel? An earlier comment you wrote seems to imply (at least to me) that you think it does. I hope I’ve misunderstood.

    Peace.

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34. I am struck by the exchange between the Lord and Peter about the feet washing.

    Peter says, “You will never wash my feet.”

    Jesus responds, “If I don’t wash you you can have no place with me.”

    So Peter says, “Then not my feet only bur my head and my hands as well.”

    Now Peter had been away from his wife and kids following the Lord for three years. “What kinds of misdeeds of that much import [to the mind rugged lifelong commercial fisherman] could such a man be doing in that situation that involved his head and his hands?” I ask myself.

    And here’s the kicker. Jesus tells Him (and us), “Someone who has been once washed [and it is the word for being baptized] is completely clean, except his feet get dirty.”

    I interpret this to mean that we are not to judge others by their outward behavior, but we are to wash our neighbor’s feet (how their behavior gets warped by the world) with our love and acceptance.

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35. Michael, you made me cry. Thank you. It’s a good sort of cry.

    You see, the evangelical version of that you can say you strugglED and you WERE a loser, but now everything is all right because you prayed a prayer, got saved and got called to preach. You know that’s not true- you’re not all right. You’re a walking wreck and lying about it has just made things worse.

    My sins aren’t Ted’s but sin is sin is sin. Thinking about my sin in the past tense is a prideful delusion. It’s real and it’s ugly and it’s daily, and it normal, everyday, sin that would never shock the world (or even most Christians), but it’s a current struggle, always, except when I “forget” to struggle at all.

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36. From one loser to another, Michael, yes and amen.

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37. Wow.

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38. And we all have had a recent lesson on how Middle Eastern cultures view the concept of dirty feet….

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39. The only sins Jesus ever pointed out were those of the “religious” folk, and that being their self righteous judgmentalism. So it seems to me that this is the one area where we must be most scrupulous.

    As far as other kinds of personal behavior malfunctions, we are to be “washing each other’s feet,” as it were.

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40. I think you’re right, treebeard. There’s that whole thing about Jesus not thinking “Godliness anything to be sought after, but emptied himself to become a servant.” We think must do the opposite ….

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41. Surfnetter, I really like your point. Maybe becoming like Jesus (being “conformed to His image”) doesn’t mean we become otherworldly beings that no one can relate to. Maybe to become like Him is just to become more genuinely human, which requires something divine at work in us.

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42. The real question is then, What was Jesus like …? Theologically He was like us “in all ways except for sin,” but practically speaking He appeared no different than the sinners He hung out with. Peter had to have a special word from the Father that He was the Messiah, because nothing he could experience with his “flesh and blood” revealed that to him.

    So to become like Jesus would be to become intrinsically really good but not becoming noteworthy for it.

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43. Yet another terrifically written, quotable, memorable, and gospel rich piece. I pray that he reads it, and I pray that your writing/teaching gift runs wide and expands in it’s unique ability to glorify Jesus. Who in the world doesn’t need to read this piece?

    Answer: No one!

    I also remember a White Horse Inn interview with Mr. Haggard where he astounded Michael Horton by stating that he did not believe that he sinned. Horton followed up by asking if he realized that in the sermon on the Mount Jesus likened ill-will as murder and pressed Mr. Haggard about whether he sometimes felt ill-will towards the liberals who fought against the Christian right? Mr. Haggard said that the Lord had given him total victory.

    That was a telling interview, and Mr. Haggards fall may well be a powerful proof of Jesus’ persistent love for him.

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44. Christian righteousness is not the same as worldly virtue. There are many practical similarities, but it’s an entirely different matter. And if Christ is making me into a virtuous person…compared to ????

    If to himself, there’s real trouble. In comparison to someone else….isn’t that the “I thank thee that I am not like other men” prayer in the parable of the pharisee and the publican?

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45. ah yes, willard has a phrase for this: “miserable christian.”

    michael, i think your caricature of evangelicalism is fair, especially the triumphalistic, pentecostal variety haggard represented.

    however, what you’ve described here is akin to an AA meeting where all the members are still drunkards – they’re just honest about it. frankly, if the difference between christians and non-christians is that we’re just honest about our sin, then i don’t see the point.

    if following christ cannot reliably produce more virtuous people then jesus was lying in the sermon on the mount, and i think the church’s testimony of “weakness” has less to do with enslavement to sin and more to do with humble service over and against worldy power.

    i don’t think we have to choose between humility and holiness.

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46. iMonk~

    I was just talking about this same issue with someone last night. Interesting. I like your letter here to Haggard.
    I spent 20+ years as an evangelical. I would still consider myself partially one. But here’s the catch man, I’m now working for a group that says that Christ welcomes all to the table and that concept just blows my mind and I don’t know why!
    Wouldn’t it be awesome to have a community of people believe so much in restoration that they invest in Ted’s life and others? Wouldn’t be awesome if the world could see that as Christ followers we are still human and prone to error? But even better that God loves us so much that it’s cool if we can make it through the process of healing and come out on the other end honest and open about who we are?
    Wow, thanks again for this letter. I pray and hope that Ted and many others like him just let the truth shine through their lives.

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47. Great letter, iMonk. I had similar thoughts when I read the news article yesterday, but you assembled the thoughts and put together a masterful piece.

    Thanks.

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48. Comments are now being held for moderation.

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49. Thank you so much, iMonk. Please be reassured, your postings are a real ministry of grace and consolation. I have received help here that I could not find elsewhere. So be encouraged.

    Concerning the letter you wrote to Haggard, I also wish that he would listen to this song, one of my favorites:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh0TC6Er92o

    Sometimes I think we need to praise the Lord not for our victory, but for our defeats. I don’t mean that in the way of enabling sin. But sometimes it’s when we really fall low that we realize how much we need Him, and how far away we have actually been from Him. When we are brought low, when we see ourselves as we really are, all the religious pretense doesn’t work anymore. But then we can really find Him in a fresh way, and experience the power of His death and resurrection.

    I’m grateful that in a low place, He finds us, and is faithful to be with us. I sincerely hope Haggard and his family can know Christ as never before. But I hope that means they disappear from the headlines.

    And there is absolutely nothing shameful about being an insurance salesman, and having a tough time of it. The Lord was just a carpenter, after all.

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50. MDS – it’s the Job story. With all the “doctrinal” explanations his friends came up with, and then Job’s recounting of how God had let Him down, I love God’s answer –

    “Who is this, obscuring my intentions with his ignorant words? Brace yourself like a fighter; I am going to ask the questions, and you are to inform me!

    Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, since you are so well informed! Job 38:2-4 (etc.and so on)”

    “Who the hell are you to question me?” is what he basically responds. And when He’s done with Job he turns to Job’s “spiritual advisers” and orders them to pay homage to His faithful servant, who then is given a life better than before.

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51. Awesome.

    Grace comes to me when I realize my need for it.

    Many people in evangelical churches, though they are feigning victorious living, are wondering if they could ever be as ‘on top of it’ as the fella on stage, let alone the guy next to them in the pew.

    I’ll just have to link this one, Michael.

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52. One of my formulaic simplifications of the experience of faith is that God is always bigger than what we think He is. This is what I see to be the purpose of the Jesus parables and the repetitive classes in humility that God places us in. Every time we feel we have found a God we can understand, a place we can safely settle in, a quiet and secure home and community we can retire to; God blows down the walls, the volcanoes erupt, the flood waters rise, and our hard fought for and deserved security is blown out to sea only to sink into the darkest depths………and then nothing………no sound…….no light……..nothing……..but then something……it is Christ.

    And we are alone….with Christ.

    And I rest…….

    And he feeds me….

    And I am comforted….

    And then I strike out to witness to what He has done.

    And then I find a nice little piece of land…a beautiful forest of trees..water….all that I could hope for…..and I begin to build another home…..and I forget about the flood. But God remembers for me.

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53. I once read that Spiritual autonomy is the basis for all Protestant teaching. “No mediator between God and man except the Son.” I had a meditative experience that I’ve revisited on my blog.
    http://www.surfnetter.com/blog/?p=74

    As “little Christs” we all are mediators of a sort for each other ….

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54. “The deepest sin of the soul is prideful autonomy, the very thing evangelicals demand in their celebrities.”

    Brilliant. The evangelical crisis in a nutshell.

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55. Do you really believe that anyone anywhere could wipe the smile off God’s face, or remove the joy from His heart?

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56. Your problem may be explaining those portions of Holy Scripture when God isn’t smiling. 🙂

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57. I wouldn’t want to debate this anyhow. Argue it out with the Lord. I believe He would just sit there smiling ….

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58. I haven’t been accused of being optimistic in a while — I must be getting better ….

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59. An interesting subject to debate. But not today. I always find that unbounded optimism has boundaries somewhere.

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60. Yes — and if He truly is “… the Way, the Truth and the Life,” then He is at the basis of all things and not bound by human judgment as to whether what has been accessed by anyone anywhere is He himself or not, no matter by what name they call themselves. A cut-in-the-cloth Muslim, renouncing Jesus and all of Christendom could actually be somehow drinking the Waters of Eternal Life because he stumbled on them in a dream. How could anyone but God know?

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61. >…I have come to the conclusion that God will no longer allow himself to be contained in anybody’s doctrinal box — not even one with Jesus’ name and Moses’ Laws written all over it.

    I agree that the God of the Bible can’t be constrained in a doctrinal box. He does as he pleases. I believe that God definitively revealed himself and his salvation for the world in Jesus and his unique person and work. That was his pleasure.

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62. Having come from a background virtually devoid of any religious indoctrination, I have been able to see the Christian conversion process without any preconceived notions.

    Does anyone else recognize that to become a “real” Christian the common notion is that you first have become a Jew? Before the Christian Era, the only people who had any guilt for what we call “sinfulness” were Jews. This small mostly colloquial group were the people of Adam’s fall, the Laws of Moses, and the “wages of sin are death.” Nobody else had this. When Paul wrote his exegesis on the redemption of the Cross vis a vis all of the above mentioned Judaica, it was to those who had all that as an obstacle. For non-Jews, that was all taken care of at the Jerusalem Council.

    You bring up the 12-Steps — the middle steps deal with sinfulness as “defects of character” that we must recognize, “admit to ourselves and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs” and ask God to remove. And then we are to “make amends” not to God, but “to those we have harmed” wherever possible.

    Few Catholics make use of the Sacrament of Penance anymore, and this dogmatic conundrum has been taken care of with the penitential prayer at the beginning of every Mass. But the relief of telling “another human” is not addressed in the penitential rite at a Mass.

    I was sent back to 12-step meetings a few years ago at this time of year during confession by an itinerant retreat-master contemplative priest who realized he couldn’t help me after I started rambling about my dysfunctional childhood. He gave me “going to a 12-step meeting before Christmas” as a penance!

    Why? Because there is a realization among bureaucrats, clerics and counseling professionals that for my kind of psycho/spiritual malady it is the only thing that actually works. And after careful observation and study I have come to the conclusion that God will no longer allow himself to be contained in anybody’s doctrinal box — not even one with Jesus’ name and Moses’ Laws written all over it ….

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63. Regarding Michael Bell’s holiness question and the surrounding discussion; It’s interesting that Wesley argued for the possibility of holiness since he felt Christ would not command anything of us that is impossible to do. Yet he immediately declared that he himself had never achieved holiness, nor had anyone in his experience. Willard also addresses this this dilemma well.

    As best as I can determine, there does seem to be a sort of level one reach where, while we may not have become fully Holy, we have at least become convinced that we must once and for all abandon the project of hope in ourselves. It is a place of Holy Brokenness. We still screw up, but are less surprised by it, less defensive and quick to support the image of ourselves we’d like to hold onto. That seems a worthy and achievable goal to me now. And even in asking for so little, perhaps I show I have yet to abandon my project in self glorification. God certainly knows. (Clue; I haven’t.)

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64. Michael Bell: >>>> Then why all the New Testament calls to holiness, walking in the light, living now according to our [heavenly] calling, etc… if it were not somehow attainable through Christ?

    Christ spoke of a perfect fellowship in His prayer for us…(paraphrased) ‘Father you are in Me. I am in them. We all are One.’ In that perfect fellowship, one is become a Temple of God. In this place…holiness exists and its fruits are very obvious. There are those of us who rock back and forth between serving the flesh (pleasures e.g. alcohol,drugs,sexual lusts,food (gluttony/obesity) and serving the Spirit…’double-minded.’ His Grace is so evident in…’he that endureth to the end…the same shall be saved.’

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65. Surfnetter,

    I love your perspective of your experience of Christ and how it all plays out within the Catholic Church. Very nice.

    I’d attribute some of what you say about Catholicism with the length of time it has had to face its screw-ups. Humility does seem to be a factor of age. It is by no means automatic, but nothing sets one up to learn to leave things to God better than repeated and ongoing failure. It’s only the young that can get away with pride. True of people and denominations.

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66. Because of the Sacrament of Penance I can be forgiven from sin. But the effects of sin on me as a human, not my soul but my mortal self is still there. It was mentioned above if it is still right to have an alcoholic at an AA meeting who has been dry for 20 years start the meeting with “I am an alcoholic” – in my view yes because deep down he or she knows at any time, at a weak moment, without God, he or she could begin again. I agree with Michael that some desire for sin we outgrow, other desire for sin we live with for a lifetime. And we persevere to struggle to do what is right and fall many times. That might be greed, self adulation, wanting to be in the limelight, purity issues. For me though, it comes down to how I measure up when I look at humility or self pity or why can’t I have/be like/do instead of having an outwardly focus. Ideally easy, realistically pretty tough sometimes.

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67. A real blood and guts program in discipleship would be titled something like “The Road to Victorious Losership”.

    My personal experience of falling, were it filmed in stop gap and then sped up, would look something like those four legged, seemingly omnipotent battle creatures that are tripped up and falling to earth in the old Star Wars films. The fall has been going on now for eighteen years, and it remains unclear whether I’ve yet hit the concrete.

    We do not die easily. I only recently became aware that I had been carrying around these last 18 yrs the dead carcass of my old “successful” self. Ashamed of having found myself to be a loser, I’ve been pulling the dead guy out and showing him off to people as though he’s the guy they should see me as. And people are not as stupid as I imagined. They actually do see that guy. I could never understand why they looked at him with shock and disgust. But then I walked by a mirror and saw that he looks a lot like Tony Perkins dead mother in Psycho. I’ve been trying to peel him away from my back ever since.

    Paul said that at the center of his weakness was his greatest strength. When we are no more, He is all. In His all, I am reborn a defenseless and tender infant, in constant need and dependence upon His grace and the food and drink He places in my open mouth.

    Not many in the church see any use in wrinkled old men that are babies. They are kind of embarrassed by the whole spectacle. But God does use weakness to humble the proud.

    I pray that God will take the whole church where He is taking Tel Haggard. It is not a pleasant trip, but the pearl at the end of the road is well worth the journey.

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68. I’m a Roman Catholic by choice after searching through nearly every other denomination available, having had a radical conversion experience as a young adult pretty much independent of human influence — not because I agree with everything in the Catechism or what is continually put out there as to what a real Catholic is. Although it is hard for me to put my finger on, it has something to do with the “c”atholicism I find in the Church. Although the public dogma is quite exclusionary, in practice it is the most inclusive of all denominations. It is like Judaism in this. You can be almost anything and still be Catholic. There are all kinds of rules as to who can be a communicant but, as I’ve heard from a couple of Church authorities close to the Vatican, there is no enforcement arm. It is really all a matter of conscience. This is not the case anywhere else. If you don’t tow the doctrinal/philosophical/political line they will literally throw you out in almost every other Christian venue. In the Catholic Church there are few cases where this is so.

    And I believe it is because we believe Christ crucified is physically present in the sanctuary and if He wants somebody out of there, He’s quite capable of taking care of it Himself.

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69. Sorry for the lengthy post. But I’ve got to finish. PW said, ‘Micheal, you’ve still got it.” You’ve got it for sure…..a calling, a purpose..a precious thing. Michael, over the past 24 hours your posts have been anointed….nothing of you…but of the Holy Spirit. It’s like ‘holy ground’ as I read. Other commentors have said the same impact as they read. Michael, you and your wife are one…trust God with the watch care over the most precious part of you……your wife. God is BIGGER than any church called by any name. Let Him work His work. Give Him Praise. “Rejoice and be glad.”

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70. Michael,

    Like PW and others say, you’ve still got it. Perhaps in the midst of doubt, “it” is speaking all the louder. Keep preaching it, and keep talking hard.

    God willing, I’ll make it through seminary and step into the hardest, loneliest job on earth: the pastor. I heard the gospel in this today, and if I don’t preach this gospel every time I step into the pulpit, I hope the whole iMonk audience comes and smacks some sense into me.

    Blessed Advent to you, Michael.

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71. IMONK, as true ‘believers’…nothing comes our way that God does not allow, sanction, permit, or whatever word would fit because He sits atop the throne of thrones. And He is Boss. He sees things we can’t see. He sees the future. I don’t mean to assume too much….but I ‘know’ in my heart of hearts that your experiences over the past year are under God’s control. The challenge your wife has put before you has urged you to define and defend the gospel you obviously love so dearly. But the very sovereignty of God allows him the freedom to work in ‘mysterious ways’….His wonders to perform. TRUST GOD! KNOW THAT THE ENTIRE SITUATION CONCERNING YOUR WIFE’S MOVE TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH…..IS A ‘WIN’ SITUATION. He loves us all immensely. He is working a ‘work.’ Don’t question……just TRUST…with thanksgiving.

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72. Great post and discussion. As per George Bailey on the bridge — I say to you “Atta boy, Clarence…”

    Just one thing, though — don’t know about the continual ringing out of a particular public individual as an example. Seems kind of harsh, even if he is a former self-righteous fundamentalist evangelical.

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73. Can I opine for my Eclectic brother?

    Our Puritan ancestors often greeted each other with the comment,”Have you mortified today?” Yet they believed they were saved by faith and totally justified. The sanctification of our fleshy nature, imperfect until we are risen in Him, is where the “run the race as if to win!” “fight the good fight” comes in. With the Holy Spirit as Guide, Counselor, Comforter, Teacher, we go through trials and tribulations, face temptations, and feel the pain of this vale of tears, constantly being shaped by it all into the image of Jesus who is the perfect image of God. In other words we are being made Holy.
    Sure God can give Ted a victory, God can do anything, He is God, but victories come after battles, and this battle needs to result in the death of Ted’s flesh, nailed to the cross of Christ. will Ted pick up his cross and follow Christ? Will you? Will I? Daily?
    And when we do pick up the cross, yes it is God that gives the victory. So many wish to sing “Victory is mine” but simply will not join the battle.
    I do not pretend to know your story, but let me ask, “If you loved drinking more than you loved God, or even worshiped drink more than God, would you have a ‘victory’ today?
    Does that help or hinder? just tryin’ Peace.

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74. I’m in great debt to Steve Taylor for being one of the few honest men in CCM back then. We have many more now. Sons of Rich Mullins- “Hold Me Jesus.”

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75. Michael…

    One other note. We aren’t talking about just “what does the Bible say?”

    We’re honestly discussing what is the effect of community context on how we hear scripture.

    My current take on the Gospel would have been viewed as rank unbelief in the churches of my youth.

    But so would the confessions of Romans 7. Or “I believe; help thou my unbelief.”

    This is part of the post evangelical journey: to lose the revivalistic distortion and hear what the reformation said much more clearly. The Gospel is for Christians too.

    Don’t let me tell you how to spend your money, but if you’ve never heard Rod Rosenbladt’s “the Gospel for those broken by the church” it’s available from New Reformation Press for a few bucks. Priceless truth in that talk.

    peace and a good advent

    ms

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76. Thanks for this post. I don’t know if Ted will ever read it, but I did and I need it. Well said. BTW, are you familiar with Steve Taylor’s Squint CD? The songs “The Finish Line” and “Jesus Is for Losers” are in harmony with this post.

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77. Thank you for the response Michael. Certainly something to think on for a while.

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78. “The deepest sin of the soul is prideful autonomy, the very thing evangelicals demand in their celebrities.”

    So true. So hard to hear.

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79. First, it is the Gospel message that Christ has defeated sin, etc. It is also the Gospel message that this will be completed in the new age. Not to be be argumentative, but neither you, nor me, nor Ted are cured of the deep issues of sin in this life. God may graciously allow great breakthroughs, but let’s be honest for a moment.

    Is AA wrong to have every talk start with “I am Michael and I am an alcoholic?” Even if you haven’t had a drink in 20 years? I know the answer varies within the addiction treatment community. But I don’t think the answer varies for us. My sins are many. The closer I get to Christ, the more of them I see. I no longer have some of the sins I had as a teenager. I have worse ones as a middle aged man. And if that isn’t your experience in the light of the Gospel, then I supppose we are having two different experiences.

    We are admonished to holiness because that is the purpose of the original and the new creation. But we are not going to get there in this life. I am not holy. The closer I get to the light, the more of my sin I see, the deeper I see it and the more I need the Gospel’s unconditional promise.

    My Catholic and Wesleyan friends have a different view of these matters. I do not quarrel with them. I am Lutheran in experience. I hear the call to love my wife as Christ has loved me. I try. I have made progress. And I see my failures clearer than ever.

    The same with sexual purity. Greed. Pride. I have made progress. And I see the depth of the sin better and clearer than ever.

    The work of the Spirit is to make me holy. I am holy perfectly in Christ. I progress toward holiness only as I follow Christ, and in him I see my sins covered by his blood and righteousness.

    Testimonies that give God glory for progress are great. Testimonies that don’t testify to an ongoing experience of deeper and deeper conviction and need of grace are truly pointing to the Gospel.

    peace

    ms

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80. If Robert Ferrar Capon ever gets wobbly on grace, you should send him this.

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81. Michael,

    I am in whole hearted agreement with P.W. here. Your ministry through this site is very much meaningful in my life.

    Thanks for your response to my earlier question.

    As to number 2) Imperfect Sanctification as the inevitable and absolute failure to become holy in this life. (Sorry John Wesley)

    Then why all the New Testament calls to holiness, walking in the light, living now according to our [heavenly] calling, etc… if it were not somehow attainable through Christ?

    These are genuine questions, I am not trying to be argumentative here, but trying to better understand how the grace of God works in the area of sin.

    To give you an example from my own life. When I was younger I had a serious drinking problem. I tried to stop drinking on my own and was unable to. Finally I acknowledged that the only way I could get rid of my drinking problem was through God’s grace. That was the point at which my drinking became no longer a problem. So, if God can do it with my drinking, can’t he do it with Ted Haggard’s sexual issues? Is it not possible to say that God has given me “victory” in a certain area where personal holiness is an issue?

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82. terri,

    I agree, but hey…..a few months ago it looked like he would be right back in the pulpit proclaiming he was cured and the rest of the lies that are required of a big public repentance, book deal, stint on the 700 Club, etc.

    It’s a step in the right direction. Saying I’m a loser isn’t easy for an evangelical celebrity. A lot of thoughts about God are behind that. I’ve been through nothing like Ted but my God problems have been horrendous. So whatever TH means by loser, it’s a long way from the collection of lies he’s been selling.

    peace

    ms

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83. Love the post. I read the same news article with Ted Haggard’s interview.

    I agree that we’re all “losers” in a sense. We all miserably fail.

    However, when I read that article I was disturbed, not because Ted haggard is still struggling with things, but because he labeled himself a loser in the context of not being a “success”. It seemed to me that he still sees the pattern for being an ideal Christian as being the one he pretended to be all these years.

    In other words, he thinks he’s a loser because he isn’t what he pretended to be and still wants to be, as opposed to being a loser who recognizes just how much he needs Jesus.

    I don’t know. I think he has a long way to go, and agree that he just needs to drop out of the spotlight, sell insurance and try to find a place where he and his family can heal.

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84. PW:

    I probably shouldn’t say this…

    With all that’s happened in my home this year, and all the feelings that have come along with that regarding the rejection of the Gospel I’ve tried to teach and proclaim all these years….

    Thanks…..I appreciate that very very much. You have no idea how I doubt myself these days.

    ms

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85. I hope there’s never been any doubt about this, but Michael, you’ve still got it. Wow.

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86. Very powerful.

    Am I mistaken, or is it true that the congregations of megachurches will eventually forgive greed, false teaching, and heterosexual excess, but hardly ever forgive homosexuality? Is it possible that they don’t really believe that people can change? Is sanctification slower for some issues than others?

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87. I have tears in my eyes. Beautiful. True.
    In Him, another loser

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88. Awesome. This really ministers to the soul. It also informs. My prayer is it informs believers who they are and what the gospel truly is. I pray it also helps clarify to the unbelievers who read this what Christianity is and is not. Too often people reject a false Christ in lieu of the real McCoy, the truth obfuscated yet rejected still by deception.

    Fellow loser sinner,
    db

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89. Very good stuff. I hope he reads this. Heck, I needed to read this.

    Your comment to Michael reminded me of the Casting Crowns song “Caught in the Middle“:

    Somewhere between the wrong and the right
    Somewhere between the darkness and the light
    Somewhere between who I was and who You’re making me
    Somewhere in the middle, You’ll find me

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90. Thanks for this Michael

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91. Michael,

    Just understand the difference between the following:

    1) Sanctification as God’s commitment to make us holy.

    2) Imperfect Sanctification as the inevitable and absolute failure to become holy in this life. (Sorry John Wesley)

    3) The work of the Spirit to continually bring us to the ROOT of sanctification: the Gospel the Gospel the Gospel the Gospel

    4) Final sanctification at death/rez

    Put these things in balance.

    God has promised to sanctify me. The Spirit works for my sanctification by constantly showing me my NEED of CHRIST and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. God will perfectly sanctify me. But NOW…I am imperfectly sanctified and the progress of sanctification is measured in my constant need of CHRIST and the GOSPEL.

    Victory language in evangelicalism is displacing 2 with 4.

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92. “Yes, transformed so that the Gospel’s diagnosis and truth make sense in the deep, dark places of your life. But fixed? Cured? “Victorious?” “Your Best Life Now?” No… There’s only one cure: dying and rising. Until then, believe the Gospel with an open heart, and walk in the power of the Spirit- who keeps you on your knees depending on Jesus- until Jesus finishes the job.”

    Michael,

    I honestly need some help with understanding this one – probably because I came from a church that had a lot of “victory” kind of language.

    How does what you have written here fit with passages like Romans 8 that talk about no longer living according to the sinful nature but by the spirit?

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93. Well said! “Whoever would save his life will lose it.” Losers we are. It’s a bitter pill that brings true healing by way of death and resurrection. We Lutherans say with our catechism that we must daily die and drown in our Baptism (the old Adam is a good swimmer) and the daily rise to new life in Christ. Death and resurrection is the only way. Rehab doesn’t work on a sinner.

    To be lost in the biggest Loser the world has known – that is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

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94. Put me on that “loser” list. Without Him, I am nothing. Thank you Lord Jesus for coming for one such as me.

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95. Danny,

    I don’t know why not. Santa reads all my letters.

    ms

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96. Have you been reading Brennan Manning again? Maybe Ted and others will pick up one of his books, as well as checking out observations such as yours. At times I get so discouraged with the evangelical attitudes expressed, such as some that you mentioned, especially about praying the so-called “‘sinner’s prayer’ and all will be well because now your name is writen in the Lamb’s Book of Life and you will go to heaven forever.” Great, I’m all for that–who wouldn’t be? But, Ted, Michael, I, and all others need the continual work of the Holy Spirit and the ministry of the Christian community to help in God’s transformation process. It starts with the acknowledgement that we are indeed sinners and losers. That gives Jesus all he needs to begin work in our lives.

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97. Thanks for this Michael. I appreciate the good news God speaks through you. I started reading just a couple of months ago and check in daily.

    This is fantastic. We need to be praying for Haggard and for “American Evangelical Christianity”.

    Peace in the Messiah

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98. D’you really think he’s going to read this?

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99. Breathtaking. Thank you, Michael.

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