Lazurus here. The last four days in the tomb were no fun. Thanks to Jesus for getting me out.
Two items of interest regarding unusual situations in large churches caught my attention yesterday.
Accidents happen in church just like anywhere else. Murphy’s Law is true as always, and more true the more complex the undertaking. People are injured and even killed by falling off risers, tripping over cables and baptizing while wearing badly wired equipment. Lots of people are shot in church. I don’t believe there is a zero-risk environment anywhere.
But one does have to wonder what is going on in churches where, for example, this sort of thing happens: A guy is riding his motorcycle in church and crashes it into a table. If someone had been at the table, it would have been tragic.
Our ministry here in Southeastern Kentucky lives with constant awareness of risk and liability. Our insurance company plays us close on these kinds of issues, and for good reasons: Churches and church related ministries take all kinds of unnecessary risks in the name or religion. They don’t show much wisdom or restraint. We’re very careful, but many churches aren’t.
Sadly, we are living in a time where there are meetings planning these events, risky behavior is described to adult leaders, and the risks are accepted in the hope of drawing a bigger crowd than last year. It’s not that God is more glorified in a bigger show. We simply want more people in the seats.
I don’t believe churches should stop doing programs where someone might be injured. But I do wonder if the mentality of megachurch “entertainment escalation” is really something we want to accept uncritically? Every church needs some “wise men” when it comes to the impulse to take risks in the name of drawing a crowd.
The second link is a blog post where Mars Hill Church’s pastor Mark Driscoll reflects on their lowest attendance in many years during this past weekend’s blizzard in Seattle.
Far be it from me to say I know anything about a subject a megachurch pastor knows about, but here in Kentucky, deciding whether to go or no go on snowy Sundays is a regular part of pastoral ministry. I’ve been in this position as part of a large church staff and as the preacher at a small church. I’ve had to make this decision knowing there were people who wanted the church open no matter what the weather, because they believed that was part of the church’s corporate witness to the community, and there were people who would come when they shouldn’t come if I did give a go. In the same way, I’ve faced this decision knowing the implications for money, the risks of older members falling and the criticism I would receive for any decision I made.
I’ve preached to 3 people and wondered what I was thinking, and I’ve been told I canceled too quickly and shouldn’t be paid. So I KNOW this isn’t simple, and I know it’s a complex mix of factors.
Having said all of that….
He denigrates those who chose not to come as viewing the church as a job, and automatically gives the highest spiritual motive to those who went to extreme measures to come. I just don’t see that, and I don’t see how anyone who knows people and their various motives for coming to church could not see that some come out of guilt and many don’t come out of prudent, wise judgement.
You get this:
…if they are 80 people who want to love and worship Jesus and are willing to do whatever it takes to get to church then those people are the hardcore of the hardcore and from what I heard they out sang crowds ten times their size because they were determined to fill the room with worship to Jesus.
“The hardcore of the hardcore?” I don’t understand the impulse to immediately create a new category of Christian commitment and not-so-subtly criticize those who, for prudent reasons during a weather disaster, chose to worship at home. I assume Driscoll’s people understand this side of him, but it seems to invite a very “ungracious” attitude toward one another.
On the other hand…
I think his reflections on paying positive and appreciative attention to the few, rather than stewing and complaining about the many, is very commendable and important.
And his awareness that his own heart attitude is at stake in going through such a day is right on target. At many megas, the pastor wouldn’t show for 80 or 600. An associate would be sent in. When I’ve preached to 3 instead of 30, I know exactly what Driscoll is talking about. What happens on a Sunday isn’t a weekly referendum on you as pastor. It’s very easy for ministers to adopt that mindset. That Driscoll knows it is a danger is a good step.
He’s a work in progress, and his “hardcore Christianity” bit is full of problems, but overall it’s encouraging to see his growth.
The Internet Monk Archives 
From this and previous discussions concerning Mars Hill, I get the impression that they are after the high-testosterone, manly crowd; spiritual girly-men not welcome. He talks big and tough. It seems like part of the schtick. And I’m not singling out Mars Hill; it seems like a recent evangelical trend, along with driving motorcycles through church (Fonzie Theology?).
But unfortunately, there are times when talking tough is necessary. Paul didn’t hand-hold the Corinthians. But if you are called to preach that sort of message, be ready with the salve of the gospel to bind the wounds. Show the way to the cross. Have the bread and cup ready. But I think the problem is that the average pastor preaching a big-club sermon is trying to goad his congregation toward a change in behavior, rather than lead them to a Savior who can, not only change them, but forgive them. Especially for small congregations, where the pastor feels like the church’s survival is on the line, I can see how tempting it would be to panic if people are not attending, tithing, serving, or evangelizing enough. But even in those circumstances, the Gospel is the answer, no matter how contrary that may sound.
But if toughness is just part of the showmanship, then its going to be difficult turning it off. When there is constantly a hammer in your hand, everything and everyone will start looking like a nail. The hammer we need is the “Hammer of God” (yes, a shameless plug for Giertz’s timeless book).
From what I understand, the shepherd’s rod was not used to beat the sheep, but to fight off predators. Pastors should definitely talk loud and tough when it comes to defending the flock. Instead, we live in a time when pastors abuse their congregations and heretics are defended against anyone who might sound the least bit “judgemental”.
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My husband and I are active at our church. I’m on C.E.; am the Sunday School Superintendent, and direct Vacation Bible School. My husband is just finishing up his term on another committee and runs another project for the church. We live in New England. We had quite a snowy weekend, and although our Sunday Service was held, many local churches canceled because the roads were so bad. I let my Sunday School teachers and committee chair know that I wouldn’t be there (and they already know they are free to cancel if need be; as two others did this past weekend).
I have three children. The drive from home to church is about a half mile, but it’s nearly a half-mile that’s completely downhill. (I was going to say “straight” downhill, but none of our roads here are straight.) The road conditions were deplorable in our area. My husband was exhausted and achey from shoveling. We also skipped out on a family Christmas party on Sunday, too.
On the other hand, on Christmas Eve, we were there for the early service (which is put on by the children — a nativity play and carols) and we were there for the 11:00pm candlelight service.
Despite the various roles I fill there, it’s because I don’t think of my church as a job that I didn’t go last Sunday, and decided to go twice on Wednesday.
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J wrote: “As a church, why not have the policy: “We will ALWAYS open the doors on Sunday (or Sat), regardless of the weather. One of us with a key will unlock a door and enable those that can come to come and gather together. We’ll leave it up to you (freedom) to choose whether to venture out and join us.—
That’s the way my pastor puts it. “If weather’s bad, I and some other core leaders will be here.The doors will be open.”
We may not have children’s church or nursery workers, and all be together in the sanctuary, but service will be held. Those who can’t make it due to weather can catch the streaming video on the website, which was started precisely so people traveling on business or home ill could still participate to some degree.
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Last Sunday we had a couple inches of snow with wet slushy stuff on top. Only about 20 people showed. Most of the people with old cars or poor tires stayed home, and the baby squad was missing too. I was glad that the people had enough brains to keep off the roads. Church is just not an emergency. Pray at home. We don’t pass the plate, maybe that makes a difference.
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Eric,
When your pastor was talking about how committed you were, wasn’t that in person, just to the brave souls who made it? If that’s the case, it was probably done with appreciation and affection. (That’s what I would hope.)
We are concerned about the criticism of those who couldn’t make it, for valid reasons. I never remember being criticized for not making it, when it snowed in North Carolina.
Not to mention, Pastor Driscoll’s remarks that Myrrdin quoted, nor comparing those who couldn’t make it to work slackards.
Question: Since we are supposed to be in community as Christians, how much Mars Hill community do you think that the people who drive 3 hours (I presume that it is 3 hours 1 way) get?
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Thanks for a thoughtful response, Eric. I have come to the conclusion, at least at this point in my life after 30 years of ministry, that the megachurch approach, along with many other clever human attempts to strategize and organize the work of the church, does more harm than good because it is too deeply rooted in an entrepreneurial and business model. That leads to endless temptations for its leaders and people to try to do too much, say too much and claim too much that is simply not the Gospel.
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I’m sorry if that earlier post was a bit harsh, but let me try to say what frustrated me a little more clearly. I too am annoyed by the fact that Driscoll makes much of numbers and think that there is plenty of freedom in the gospel for those who conclude it would be prudent to stay at home.
That said, reading Driscoll’s post, it seemed to be meant as a simple expression of gratitude toward people who made it to corporate worship despite difficult weather. Nothing more, nothing less. Did it reflect a certain numbers- and volunteer-focused notion of how the church should operate? Probably. But the point of the post, and the weight of what Driscoll was saying, was simply that he was glad people who were able to came to gather in corporate worship even though it might have been easier not to.
If anything, this is the opposite of the typical mega-church mentality, which would see such an empty morning as a failure. Sure, we shouldn’t make church attendance some law to beat people up with, but to rejoice in the fact that it is important to one’s congregation to congregate doesn’t seem like it warrants an overwhelmingly negative response, which is how I felt the comments were running.
As for “vitriol,” that was a poor word choice. Proof that I need the gospel just as much as anybody. I guess I just felt like we were taking a well-meant attempt at thanking those who attended as a criminal because of how it might have sounded to those who couldn’t. It seems like sometimes we seize on what’s wrong with what someone says in a way that backs them into a corner, that says that simply because they have a “mega-church,” no matter what a pastor says, he can’t win. And this seems like a terrible place to put any human being. I would go crazy if my (admittedly poor) attempts at encouragement were subjected to that sort of scrutiny.
So, I apologize for my frustration, but I do think that the weight of criticism we’re wont to level would be far more than I could bear. And I’m chief among those who can play the critic.
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Eric, if you are referring to my posts, you certainly missed my point. Pastor Driscoll’s remarks are symptomatic of what’s wrong with American church culture, and especially the megachurch mentality. Furthermore, your rural pastor didn’t post his frustrations about those substandard Christians who are less than “hardcore” on the internet for the whole world to see!
I hereby sentence you to read Myrdden’s last post 100 times!
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I’ve read the blog entry at least twice and all of the comments here.
I am very bothered by Pastor Driscoll’s comments. He seems very clueless at best. To praise those who put themselves and others at serious risk to come to church. (I’ve driven, at least once, 1.5 hours just to attend Mass at a specific church, but never during bad weather).
When people are experienced with snow, they are more comfortable with knowing their own abilities to drive and NOT to drive. In areas where there isn’t much snow, then even more care must be taken.
One thing that sticks in my craw is his comments about getting to work. I like working, and have made it in one day, when we were sent home early. If he wants to compare church to work, then be like my current boss, who is concerned that I make it in safely (and prefers safety to on time). He was even willing to drive my car from the street into the less plowed parking lot, when I was afraid to.
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>“If we are depressed, complaining, or secretly wishing we could be home there is something wrong with us.â€
No. There isn’t.
Buy that man the double Christmas Rum punch, bartender. Amen. Amen and Amen.
Just about everything that is immature and wrong with evangelical spirituality in one sentence, and the TRUTH of the Gospel in one answer.
Buy that quote and frame it.
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To me, the deeper issue behind the post (in all it’s facets, not just the ‘hardcore of the hardcore’ part) is in this quote:
“If we are depressed, complaining, or secretly wishing we could be home there is something wrong with us.”
No. There isn’t.
This is one of my biggest difficulties with evangelical culture and one of the reasons I left a large, prominent evangelical church.
I always felt like there was something wrong with me if I couldn’t work out of these things in an instant of ecstatic or fervent response to the carefully cultivated worship experience. This is the psychological flip-side of the hardcore Christian.
I was also very disturbed by, “Today I met, for example, a couple who drive in nearly every week from over three hours away and they left very early in the morning before the sun was up to be at the morning service.”
That’s a good thing????
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I’m starting to think the lesson for Mark and his staff is simply, “Don’t let your pastor blog after midnight no matter how good he thinks his material is.” I bet if he waited a few days, wasn’t tired from a whole day of preaching, and had taken some time to run his material by someone who could be a really good proofreader and copyeditor that they would have spotted the things people are spotting here.
Besides, I’m sure Mark knows that the people who didn’t show up can safely download the sermon from their homes and give on-line. Thanking the hardcore of the hardcore for showing up doesn’t mean he can’t think the merely hardcore who are still faithfully being part of the church family. I’m sure that’s something he would have remembered to do if he weren’t blogging past midnight.
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Eric, some of us were in groups that required extreme committment from its members, and this touched a sensitive spot.
What I experienced was not the occasional light-hearted crack, or a subtle compliment, but an angry presumption that Chrisitians were obligated to brave bad weather to prove they were consecrated. I named one example, but this occurred more than once.
One time I was strongly rebuked on the phone because I stayed home during a snow storm that made national news coverage.
Another time a brother who had slept for only one hour because of a household problem came to the Sunday meeting, and was greeted with “You’re late!”
It took many years for me to realize that the Lord loved me regardless of perfect meeting attendance. Yes, Eric, “legalistic” is the word that applies to such comments about this type of committment. The ministry of grace is very different.
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Let me translate that last tirade:
“I wouldn’t have said this, so none of you should have said anything different than me.”
Could we get a definition of vitriol in the house please? Dictionary at table 4.
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Oh, give me a break; this is getting ridiculous. I remember growing up in a small church of 100-150, and there were plenty of mornings with lots of snow when the pastor would make some crack about how “committed” we were. Was it ill-advised? Maybe. But we didn’t try to chase him out of town. We didn’t rant about how little he understood the true heart of Christianity. We saw it for what it was – an off-handed attempt at a compliment which could be insulting to some, but clearly wasn’t meant that way.
Cultish? Legalistic? Has it occurred to anybody that you lend the lie to your frustration at “super-pastors” when you spill so much ink against Driscoll but never bothered to blog about my rural pastor at all? Let’s save the vitriol for someone who deserves it – like ourselves.
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Jaz, do you mind if I ask you what cult/sect you belonged to?
I have a feelin’… Been there, done that.
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I don’t think Driscoll should be cut any slack at all. It sounds to me like he is a legalist. “The hardcore of the hardcore”? Is that how the Lord looks at us? Is He waiting for some of us to be more hardcore?
I was hardcore once, and behaved like a Pharisee. Most of the “hardcore” Christians I know are very unpleasant people.
I remember an elder in my former church upbraiding a group of believers because they were late to the Lord’s Table. But it was a snow day, and the weather was surprisingly bad. This elder rebuked everyone because “that’s why the Lord gave us TV news to tell us about the weather. You could have left earlier.”
Great. You come to the Lord’s Table, to partake of the bread and the wine, to thank the Lord for His death and resurrection of Christ, to remember that your sins are cleansed and that you have received a new life, and you get rebuked for being late. That’s a wonderful testimony.
Does Driscoll understand that God may have permitted few people to attend services there that day so that he could learn mercy and grace? Does God love the non-attenders less? Does He really need a “hardcore”?
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My adult children (boys in their 20’s)live in Seattle and attend a PCA church in the Capitol Hill area. They are having to bunk with other friends just to get to work because the vertical roads down towards the water are closed. I can’t imagine families getting out with small children just to get to church in an area where there isn’t proper equipment to clear roads.
I think its called grace, Pastor Driscoll. Now I know why my kids don’t go to Mars Hill….
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I live about a mile away from the medium size church I pastor in the midwest. My attitude has always been that I’ll be there and minister to whoever shows up. We do adjsut the program quite a bit so that none of the volunteer staff feels obligated to be there. But I know that there are some people who are despirate to be in the Lord’s House with the Lord’s People. They’ve been looking forward to this all week. I don’t want to disappoint them.
Last winter we had a terrific snow storm that hit on Saturday and frankly, by 10am on Sunday it was beautiful! Every church around us was cancelling services on Saturday. Sunday morning I was getting calls from people, who normally go to the big mega churches, asking if we would be open. We had above average attendance and it was the largest “regular” single Sunday offering we have ever had.
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When I was younger, I went to church when I felt like it, and I liked it a lot better. Now that I am older, I tend to go every time. I don’t like it as much.
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All kidding aside , I’ve learned to take whatever I hear from any Pastor or teacher with a grain of salt.I thought being a hardcore was striving to overcome the sinfull passions and tendencies that plague us,and living that out in front of unbelievers and believers alike.Like not stealing from work when you could do it and not get caught or fudging your timecard or things of that nature,not whether or not you make it to church during a snowstorm, come on. Really,sometimes I’ll miss church to go fishing if the weather’s gonna be crappy on Saturday and nice on Sunday.The chief priests were at the temple every time it was open. Forsaking the assembly is turning your back on the Church as gathering of belivers and doing it solo on your own, not missing a day here or there. No one I know was ever impressed when I went to church umpteen times a week.
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The pastor at Mars Hill church back in the 1800’s wired a family named the Donners and told them they had better be in church the next upcomming Sunday.I’m not sure what happened after that.
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theo wrote:
“I guess I tend to filter his comments with a bit more grace than most of you… he is my pastor…”
Theo et al: for me it isn’t so much what a tired and drained Driscoll said on a blog in the wee hours as it is that many Christians have been taught, believe, and teach other Christians (either by word or action) that zealous and extremist commitment to institutional rites are equated with spiritual standing before God. He could have felt like this merely for the length of time it took to blog about it, but this is a major teaching and a great guilt-tripping tool in many sectors of Christianity, and one from which I have needed to repent.
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Having previously read Driscoll’s post, I was rather surprised at the venom and vitriol hurled at it by some commenters here. My initial take was that he was simply expressing gratitude for those who showed up and reflecting on the unique ways he saw Jesus working in the congregation through this extraordinary circumstance. I didn’t get that he was “bummed” by the low attendance, or that he was chastising the congregation, or that he was encouraging wanton endangerment of self.
But on second reading… yeah, some of these things are there. They are far from being his point, but they are there. He does imply that it was the Varsity squad that showed up, while the JV team took a forfit. And there is the subtle connection that if you are on Mars Hill’s varsity, that is because you are on Jesus’ varsity. Both conclusions are, of course, grossly flawed.
As one of the MH varsity (who showed up on Sunday, that is), I guess I tend to filter his comments with a bit more grace than most of you (who are what… the opposing team?), but there are many valid criticisms. And eventhough he is my pastor and I will defend him in most things, criticism can also be healthy.
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Derek Smith said,
“it snowed, and ‘only’ 2000 people showed up. He really should get over it.”
Right on, Derek. I live in a county that has a total population of 1,700 people. Want to trade places Discoll? On first thought, never mind, God put me here, so if 3 or 50 show up, I just praise the Lord.
“…hardcore of the hardcore.” I believe that a “hardcore of the hardcore” pastor would have just simply praised God that that many folks made it to church–and then pray they all made it home, safely. Discoll whines and laments about the slackers, then says, “I learned a lot, which made it one of the best days all year.” I am guessing that more than one of the slackers learned a lot about Driscoll, too.
fishon
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First, let me say that I have a positive view of Mark Driscoll. I download his sermons from time to time and find them generally engaging and insightful. I tend to reject the cultural stuff (and some of the machismo that he’s famous for) and what is left is good stuff.
However, one thing I have noticed is that he does like to talk about the fact that Mars Hill is the largest church in Seattle. In almost every sermon. I am wondering if his post has something to do with that. He wrote it at 12:37 AM. Is he worrying about all those people not showing up? Are we still a Megachurch if only a couple thousand show? What strange thinking! He seems too hard on them. I don’t want to say it, but it sounds like he is looking for an identity in the fact that he has such a big church. It snowed, and ‘only’ 2000 people showed up. He really should get over it.
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“At many megas, the pastor wouldn’t show for 80 or 600. An associate would be sent in.”
Really? Wow. Just wow. Megachurch culture continues to surprise this old-school Lutheran. How does this work? Does the associate improvise, on the principle that small crowds don’t rate thoughtful preaching? Or does the associate prepare a backup sermon every week, in case the pastor can’t be bothered?
“I’ve preached to 3 people and wondered what I was thinking,…”
What’s to wonder? Two or three are gathered in his name. That seems straightforward enough. It’s not as if we need a minyan.
When the weather keeps me from my own church, I walk to a nearby Episcopalian church. There have been a couple of times when I was one of a handful. Fortunately, I am fluent in Episcopalian. They know me as that Lutheran who shows up in bad weather. The rector once told me that people like me are one reason he doesn’t cancel.
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Once again, loyalty or devotion to an institution is equated with loyalty and devotion to Jesus. It is an affliction of all denominations. I like Driscoll but he needs to calm down a little bit, and quit horsewhipping those faithful members who are clear on the distinction of their loyalties.
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Simply…a person’s commitment to God DOES NOT EQUAL that person’s commitment to the programmed activities of the local (or regional) Christian activity center.
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Beyond the appropriateness or inappropriateness of the post, there’s the background. Looking up Mark Driscoll on Wikipedia, I see he was born in North Dakota and went to college in Pullman, Washington. Having lived in Portland, where the weather is much like Seattle, and Spokane, just north of Pullman, lemme tell ya, there’s a big stinkin’ difference, and those of us who learned to drive in snow love to point it out.
Downtown Seattle (where my sis lives) got a couple inches of the white stuff, and the entire place shut down. This would not happen in Eastern Washington or anywhere in N Dak. We would laugh in the general direction of newbie ice-drivers–unless their cars were aimed at us! But hilly Seattle is no more prepared for such weather than its locals. In fact, I’m sitting here in my house in Colorado Springs–and not at my ma’s just north of Seattle–because the SEATAC airlines ran out of de-icing fluid.
So, my uneducated, speculated guess would be he’s taking a cultural thing and putting a psuedo-religious spin on it. Inappropriate? Probably. Trash-talking snow-driver? That’s my guess.
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And the cult/sect I was in specialized in these false dilemma insinuations.
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Agreed, iMonk, I’m probably just overreating due to my past. I’m probably too quick to look for insinuations, but my current leadership seems quite free of them.
Given that I drove around Saturday night and Monday morning (when things were still terrible–on Interstate 5–think washboard ice, on an interstate!! through downtown Seattle!), I couldn’t believe Driscoll would be bothered that so many wisely and prudently stayed home. He seemed to insinuate that there were no good reasons for staying home, only bad reasons (it’s a job; you’re secretly wishing to stay home; you’re not hardcore).
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No suggestion here that Driscoll is leading a cult. Just my own sad, disillusioned perspective on the state of corporate Christianity and what passes for pastoral leadership in the American evangelical church today. After reading the Mars Hill post, I feel like I need to go take a long, soaking and cleansing bath in some Eugene Peterson pastoral wisdom.
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Let me make it clear that I am not in any way suggesting that Driscoll is leading in a cultish manner. Far from it. Commenters opinions don’t represent management.
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Maybe I’m piling on, but Driscoll’s blog post sounded eerily like things I heard when I was in an authoritarian sect (many called it a cult).
Such as: “Those who see it as a job are the first to call in and cancel their duties, not show up, dog it, or leave early. ” The sly implication is that if you didn’t show up, you saw church much like you do a job. You were cancelling your duties, not showing up, dogging it, leaving early. Like you’d do with a job.
Of course, the weather and roads really were bad enough to keep _almost everyone_ home. That, or he has a huge church full of slackers.
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Driscoll’s post is shameful. To say such things to one’s congregation is bad enough. To broadcast his criticisms of his local church family to the world is inexcusable.
Listen, my brothers and sisters. This is the megachurch pastor’s mentality. He is not a shepherd, but a CEO. He thinks only in corporate terms. He values you for your contribution to the company and its bottom line. If he really cared about the people who drive three hours to attend his Christian Activity Center (aka “church”) he would encourage them to get involved in a neighborhood congregation in their own community and learn to love their neighbors, not travel so far to work a “part-time job” that only benefits the “big box store”.
I’m too disturbed by this to write any more…
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Wretched urgency and hazardous road conditions. Now there’s a lethal combination.
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I certainly hope my Pastor didn’t feel that way about me. I was driving in to church last weekend and spun out on the ice and ended up facing in the opposite direction. I thank the Lord that there were hardly any other cars on the road (they were smart and stayed in) or I most certainly would have been in an accident. Non-hardcore person that I am, I continued in that opposite direction and headed home.
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When we get a very rare winter snow or ice storm here in the deep south, my husband immediately becomes overwhelmed with the urge to ‘get out in it.’ He either puts the chains on the truck, switches to 4 x 4…and away he goes. I know lots of people who would jump at the chance to go to church on sleds and the like. Doesn’t make them hard core Christians. Does make them hard core lovers of nature.
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Could it be that due to inclemental weather for the last two weeks, the majority of Mars Hill attendees have missed the “Being Generous” sermon series… and so close to the end of the fiscal year too.
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Wow. There’s so much wrong here I’m not sure where to begin. Why on earth couldn’t Driscoll just say something like, “wherever you are and whatever your situation, we love you because Jesus first loved us. We hope your are safe and we hope you’ll worship with us when you are able”? Here are just some of the things that trouble me:
1)The possibility that machismo and foolhardiness are masquerading as, or are mistaken for, or are seen as necessary to promote, spirituality and faithful obedience.
2) The fact that Driscoll quotes Spurgeon as saying that when you pay attention to the seat that is empty, you are paying a disservice to the one that is filled, then proceeds to pay a lot of (mostly negative) attention to the empty seats in his own church. I’ve read Spurgeon and his attitude and demeanor are far from Driscoll’s in this particular post.
3) The apparent assumption that he has a handle on the inner motives and the spiritual health of those who didn’t show up, simply because they didn’t show up.
4) The implication that some Christians are better (more equal?) than others. Can you say spiritual class warfare?
5) The apparent assumption that one is called primarily to a church rather than to serve Jesus Christ, wherever they may be physically.
6) Driscoll’s words in this post are far more likely to turn away the spiritually fragile and wounded (including those already wounded by evangelicalism) than it will to attract them.
I see Driscoll’s post as a small step down the slippery slope toward legalism, and I sure hope he turns around and recaptures the grace and charity to love everyone and show it for the sake of Jesus Christ, even (maybe especially) when they don’t fill his pews.
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Clarification to my previous comment: of course, if church members had not been able to give me a ride *because of the weather,* I would have understood. I don’t think that this ever happened though.
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I don’t know what the situation at Mars Hill is, but some churches could be doing much better with actually *helping* people get to services. Here is a positive example of how this could be done. I have a physical disability and am unable to drive. When I was a member at Capitol Hill Baptist Church, the deacons always helped to make sure that every Sunday, there was someone to pick me up at my apartment, 30 minutes outside of D.C., and drive me to church. There were also often arrangements for me to spend the afternoon with a brother in Christ or a family. Then, one of those people would drive me back to church for the evening service. Finally, someone else would drive me home at the end of the night. This happened every Sunday, almost without fail. I don’t know that I ever missed a church service because people could not be found to help me with rides to and from church. I hope that the same is the case at Mars Hill in Seattle.
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Sorry, I read Driscoll’s post and I don’t get what he is saying at all. Is attending a church service what makes you the “hardcore of the hardcore?” Is this the masculine Jesus that he calls us to? Is this not the same anemic, suburban Christianity that quantifies our spiritual life by whether or not we work the nursery or work as a greeter? I am a pastor of a church and I understand the disappointment that is felt when people don’t show up. It is natural. I give Driscoll grace for this. But, I think that trying to figure out if you still rank as a megachurch on a day of an intense blizzard is a curious perspective. You are still a megachurch because your church is out there in the city. They just didn’t gather that day because of severe weather.
This seems to me like far too much focus on the performance of the service and not on the church as the ekklesia. I don’t want to judge him, but I don’t see what he is saying at all. Sorry.
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If he had the ice storm we did in NW missouri last week, and couldn’t get his own car out of the drive himself for a day, I wonder if he’d still be singing the same tune? I know that my own Campus Minister tried to leave for Christmas the day after, and slipped and fell on the ice. I’m impressed when people will go to church even if it means being persecuted. Not so much with bad weather. If your going to suffer for the gospel, I can think of better ways than risking accidents on the road a few days out of the year.
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Driscoll has a history of making lame remarks…..recalling the one about pastors’ wives “letting themselves go”. Sheesh.
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Driscoll is saying foolish things. Perhaps he’s giddy with his own foolhardiness, and they had a collective giddyfest Sunday, because going out Saturday night / Sunday morning around here was foolhardy.
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Michael,
I agree with your ‘hardcore’ assessment.
But I guess I am looking at this from two views. Having run a couple of men’s groups I know how in the past I judged how successful the group was by the number of attendees each week. in retrospect my first downfall was worrying about the group’s success. My second was personalizing the numbers. That’s what I read into Mark’s comments using my filter and past experience.
The other view is that I admit to a bit of a bias when it comes to the mega-church model – from what I have observed I tend to see the pastors of this model as cult-of-personality although this may not be the case here and I admit to stereotyping a bit.
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It is quite a unique experience to be at a church service during a blizzard or hurricane. There’s something really communal about it. I guess it is a real life metaphor for Christian spirituality.
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Let me say that I have no problem with commending committed people. I do understand the feeling some might have when they saw that a family came to church at a real safety risk. My entire objection is to the creation of this “hardcore” designation and the message that sends to those who didn’t come. Commending people is great, but there is a whole congregation and other factors to consider.
I also don’t see him as an ego-maniac. I think he’s a guy going through an amazing experience, and he’s justifiably proud of his people.
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Again, not being an evangelical I can only give a shallow reflection on this. My parish is made up of mostly elderly folk. If the weather gets bad they are expected to stay home and so sometimes Mass attendance is light. Those of us that are there give the knowing nod – a “my fwd was able to take on the weather and the hills and I see yours was too” good natured kind of nod. Bottom line is those older folks who missed Mass still deliver their offitory at some point in time, the Priest, who lives on the premisis will always have Mass whether there are two or two hundred, and numbers are not part of the equation. Now if attendance has nothing to do with weather then… priest rotation every five years will take care of that.
Anyway from my uninformed view I will give a shallow comment and you all can beat me for it. It sounds as though part of this particular pastor’s ego is tied up in church attendance. Kind of like a project manager who is more focused on procedures rather than the client. If someone braved church in a snowstorm (and didn’t have fwd) I wouldn’t be calling him or her hardcore – I might be thinking maybe they were a bit reckless.
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As a church, why not have the policy: “We will ALWAYS open the doors on Sunday (or Sat), regardless of the weather. One of us with a key will unlock a door and enable those that can come to come and gather together. We’ll leave it up to you (freedom) to choose whether to venture out and join us.”
Why do church leaders put themselves in the unfortunate situation of being mommy and daddy to its members?
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I was struck by something else in his post:
“#3. We learn about the deep love some people have for our church.
Today I met, for example, a couple who drive in nearly every week from over three hours away and they left very early in the morning before the sun was up to be at the morning service. Last week I met a couple that is from Virginia and listens online. ”
I’m sorry Mark, but that neither of those is a healthy model of attending church. It’s hard to think of what sort of community you can be involved in if you listen online, or have a 6 hour roundtrip to where you worship.
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(I think the weather conditions qualify as God’s will — even by insurance companies…)
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Jeuby:
….did any of y’all actually read driscoll’s blog post before commenting?
No, none of us read it. I actively discourage reading original sources. It really gets in the way of my pontifications.
I read it all, and I pointed out the bad and the good.
If you don’t like the analysis, say so.
Let’s skip the “If you read it, you would think just like I do” implication.
ms
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I actually get the feeling that in Catholic parishes most pastors and clerics are glad for blizzards on Sunday — except for the fact that the collection will be down.
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Wanted to add –
iMonk:
“What happens on a Sunday isn’t a weekly referendum on you as pastor. It’s very easy for ministers to adopt that mindset. ”
This is probably what happened. He felt let down, and he put up that post. On behalf of all lay people out there, I’d like to confirm that when we miss church, it’s not because we have suddenly decided our priest/pastor is uncool and we don’t want to come to his party. It is most of the time for valid reasons. Bad road conditions are a valid reason. The parisioners meant no disrespect.
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Sorry.. not interview. Blog post. That’s what happens when I have to many things rattling around in my head at once.
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I tried to read the snow day post, but had to click the Back button as I found myself experiencing some strong un-Christian feelings. I live in the snow belt, in Ohio right by Lake Erie. People get injured and killed driving in heavy snow every winter. I see cars on the side of the road, wiped out, some of them upside down, every winter. For a pastor to insinuate that people who are not willing to put themselves and their families at risk, “do not love Jesus” as much as they should – let me just sugarcoat it as much as I can and say I’m glad my spiritual father would not say anything of the sort. Furthermore, when you think about which cars are best equipped for snow driving – in Seattle, where no one uses winter tires – those would be your SUVs, your 4x4s, your high-end vehicles that get fifteen miles per gallon, if that. Can everyone afford a car like that? I can’t. I drive a ten-year-old Altima, and stay at home when there’s a white-out. I’m sure the pastor didn’t mean it that way, but he ended up sounding like he’s passing judgement on the less affluent of his congregation – which is the absolutely last thing you’d want any pastor to say – because it is the absolutely last thing you’d expect Jesus to say. WOW.
We’ve had “snow days” in our church, and no one has ever said a word of judgement about it. Then again, we’re not a megachurch and we’re Orthodox, so what do we know?
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jeuby,
We probably shouldn’t head down that road. Do you realize how often people use one small part of a large work (scripture, for one) and make a big deal out of it? I’m not saying it’s always good or bad.. it’s just that everyone does it.
And surely no one would suggest that a lot of chocolate negates the little bit of dog poop in the brownies, such as in the interview being discussed.
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Sigh…my opinion is that he over-spiritualized a very practical decision about church.
I relate to Dave R’s story–there are times where I am among the hardcore of the hardcore, but my presence has less to do with my devotion to Jesus than with my compulsion to not disappoint, and to be well-thought-of by everyone.
Very cool of your pastor, Dave, that he had the perspective to help you feel free to be with your family–that’s a good thing!
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I’m sorry, Headless guy — I was raised atheist in Post WWII Levittown where there were four RC parishes to serve the thousands of mostly practicing large Catholic families. I didn’t suffer from the attempted infusion of the Baltimore Catechism with the threat of hellfire and the Sisters’ infamous ruler slaps. As the only atheist kid I or anyone else knew, I was considered to be a “near occasion of sin” by the parents of my Catholic friends. That’s a level of persecution I have trouble fathoming even after experiencing it. I have no illusions about the Faith I have chosen after a decades long and exhaustive search through nearly every Protestant Evangelical denomination.
I’m just attempting to point out something I thought was on-topic.
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did any of y’all actually read driscoll’s blog post before commenting?
the “hardcore of the hardcore” was only a small portion of the blogpost. a lot of it was actually very good reflection about his journey as a pastor.
while i agree with many of your sentiments about not weighing decisions wisely in order to be more spiritual (or in this case “hardcore”), give the guy a break.
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I agree. I think when church attendance takes priority over community safety, something is seriously wrong.
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And there’s a lot of stuff out there, in church and without, that make you stand there and wonder “WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?”
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Don’t get so smug, Surfnetter. We Catholics have our “News of the Weird” moments, too. Remember “Clown Masses” after Vatican II? And the orgies of superstitious devotion (such as seeing Mary’s face in a taco) that periodically erupt?
People are people, and the world is full of tricks and twistiness. Crashing a motorcycle into a table during a service is only one of these tricks. Preachers playing Holier Than Thou (which easily slides into “Can You Top This?”) by denouncing those who stay home in a blizzard are another. Were church services made for man or man made for (neverending) church services?
Baptists and Pentecostals are especially famous for seven-nights-a-week services and church activities, attendance compulsory. My first idea of Heaven (yet another subject IMonk has covered) was preached to me as a never-ending compulsory church service/Bible study; i.e. one of those Heavens that made Hell sound like a better deal.
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I didn’t mean to single out any particular group of Evangelicals. My point is that the Truth is wholly mystical, not beholden to or discoverable by a particular intellectual interpretation of some Biblical passages. So if you need to put on shows, or boost attendance by cajoling, there’s a problem in the communication of the Mystical Truth who, when lifted up, “draws all men” to Himself.
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OK. We aren’t going down the road of how great other traditions are compared to evangelicals. I’ll leave the previous post, but we can either discuss the posted topic or I’m turning off comments entirely.
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I thank God that I have not been placed in the forefront of a flock — I certainly have psycho/spiritual chains of my own that would most certainly be magnified by and in a crowd of others trying to follow my lead. I feel for you guys.
In by-gone days theologians marveled at the notion of the number of angels that could dance on the head of a pin. I think one modern marvel is the vast number of “fentamostalists” (i.e., pentacostal fundamentalists) that can live in the shadow of a pinhead preacher.
In my Roman Catholic parish we don’t have any shows, no real dynamic speakers, one organ played by an old Lutheran woman who’s been there for years, and a couple of very good hymn leaders belting out the classics from the hymnal. But no matter what the weather our 700+ capacity sanctuary gets pretty well packed out for all six hour-long services every weekend. Pretty well attended for the daily morning masses as well. And I am unaware of any injuries in the nearly twenty years I’ve been attending Mass regularly there.
All we really have is a nice building and the plain old Eucharistic Celebration with the exact same liturgy that is being said all over the world four times every second, I think the average is. Must be doing something right….
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It’s easy to go to church for the wrong reasons. A few months ago my wife felt she needed to go out of town over the weekend to help in a family crisis, to confront a sibling caregiver about stealing from her dad. I have responsibilities at church on Sunday morning, and I told our pastor I was torn about whether I should go with my wife or stay home for church. He graciously urged me to go and support my wife. It was afterwards when I realized a big reason for not seeing what should have been obvious was my fear of looking “uncommitted”. It makes me sad to realize how far I still have to go in viewing these things with Jesus’ eyes and priorities.
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There’s a phrase that I’m sure iMonk has heard. When I was growing up in rural western KY and someone would ask if you’d be somewhere the standard answer which meant yes was “God willing and the crick don’t rise”.
Many folks in rural areas have to literally drive through a creek to get from their house to what most urban folks think of as a road. And the creeks of my youth tended to be either slow moving puddles or 6″ to 1′ of fast water depending on how recently the water came from the sky. And snow and ice just made it worse.
So no one ever thought ill of anyone who couldn’t get out for whatever if the creek was “risen”.
Now I personally didn’t have that issue. We just lived on such a small road that it was usually day 3 or later before the county got to plowing us. So we usually had to do it ourselves. But a Saturday snow usually meant you got to stay home and start a fire in the fireplace.
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Wow:
Tucker, I totally agree with your comments.
Even the RCs, who consider it a moral sin to miss mass, would not apply this to bad weather, illness, taking care of another who is ill, etc. As a New Englander, I stay off the road when the weather is bad for all things. It makes the jobs of the plow drivers that much easier, not to mention emergency personnel. In fact, we are repeatedly asked by our emergency service personnel to stay home and travel only if necessary. So, is it not my Christian duty to stay home for their sakes?
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Funny thing … I was just listening to Steve Brown’s interview with Driscoll a few days ago, where he went out of his way to say a few harsh things about William P. Young (author of “The Shack”). I think Driscoll has a lot of good points, but I get the impression that he’s too caught up in the American church “system”, parts of which include:
a) the idea that right doctrinal belief = salvation (what I call “the Protestant fallacy”)
b) the (often subconscious) idea that the size of a crowd a preacher draws is an indicator of how powerfully God is working through them.
Ain’t none of us perfect, of course — I sure ain’t. I do pray that, if Mark Driscoll IS bound by the chains mentioned above, the Holy Spirit frees him of them.
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What I don’t get is that Mars Hill put out a message that they would be open and to “please make wise driving decisions, and keep the safety of others in mind.” It mentions nothing about checking your spiritual devotion before deciding whether or not to go to church. I understand why and how a pastor feels that way, but he could’ve been a bit more gracious.
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Motorcylces in church along with a high wire act, simply amazing! I believe it was Spurgeon who asked if the church was feeding sheep or amusing goats.
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TUCKER…Well said !
Interesting blog, IMONK.
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When God said, ‘fail not to assemble yourselves’….He didn’t mean… “Sittest thou here on the church pew and WORSHIP me.” He did say, “Pure and undefiled religion before God is to visit the widows and orphans in their affliction.’ God is Spirit, they that worship must worship in spirit (from invisible inner man to the invisible Sovereignty) and Truth (knowledge of true Word)…Word is Truth. God never intended ‘much’ people. He wants ‘much’ fruit from a few so His power will be made known through serving tables (meeting the needs of His creation whom He loves abundantly). The ‘world’ church is fat with members and riches. The Body of Christ is lean from sharing with others.
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Driscoll’s comments are unfortunate. I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn’t mean to come across as judgmental or as having misunderstood true spiritual service and worship. It could just be the case of a tired pastor blogging when he shouldn’t. On the surface, though, I have to say it appears he doesn’t understand either what a “hardcore” Christian is, or what true spiritual service is, or what worship is. I commend those who struggled to make it to church in such bad weather. I also commend those who praised God for snow and stayed home – especially those who played with their kids and didn’t want to risk their kid’s lives in such bad road conditions. (I have heard of people in Seattle with good 4×4 vehicles volunteering to drive dialysis patients to their treatments – that seems to me to be closer to a Christian’s service of worship than ever attending a church service.) I fear Driscoll has fallen into the trap of, at least on an emotional level, confusing his church with Christianity, and of the gathering at his church for singing and praying as true worship. This is a trap many in ministry fall into.
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Wonder the number of elderly in regular attendance at Mars Hill?
Well, I was a complete woos and stayed home from mass Sunday because I didn’t choose to dig out of a 2 foot snow bank covering my driveway in -30 windchills at 7 am.
Yet… I am pretty sure some of the HARDCORE faithful octagenarians made it. Seriously.
Best,
Jenny
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