I wrote this piece in July of ’07. It garnered 70 comments and some grousy updates on my part. (You can read the original here.)
I’m reprinting the post with a clear comment thread because I feel the sentiment I expressed in this piece is even more true now than ever: there are thousands of evangelicals who would give a serious look at mainline churches, traditional worship and the riches of Protestant heritage IF some good brothers and sisters could recognize our journey and meet us somewhere halfway along the path.
It seems that at the moment there is the most interest in the broader, deeper more serious heritage of Protestantism and a growing discontent with worshiptainment, there is a strong prejudice against evangelicals within those communities that could reach out to them. Evangelicalism needs what Protestantism has always done right…..at least in those places where they still remember what was right all along.
Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Anglicans….
______________
Mainline churches….we’re having a moment here.
Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Disciples of Christ…do you know what I mean? We’re having a moment, and it’s slipping right by.
What moment?
We’re having a moment when thousands of evangelicals are getting a bellyful of the shallow, traditionless, grown up youth group religion that’s taken over their pastor’s head and is eating up their churches.
It’s a moment when people are asking if they want to hear praise bands when they are 70…or if they will even be allowed in the building when they are 70. It’s a moment when the avalanche of contemporary worship choruses has turned into one long indistinquishable commercial buzz. It’s a moment when K-Love is determining what we sing in church and that’s not a good thing.
It’s a moment when some people are wondering if their children will ever know the hymns they knew or will ever actually hold a Bible in their hand at church again. It’s a moment when a lot of people are pretty certain if they hear the words “new,” “purpose” or “seeker” one more time, they may appear on the evening news for an episode of “church rage.”
It’s a moment when significant numbers of people have heard the same ten sermon series so many times they could fill in for the pastor on short notice. It’s a moment when many people would actually like to see a section of the congregation who are over 50 and not trying to look under 30.
It’s a moment that- believe it or not- some people actually want to go to something that looks like church as they remember it, see a recognizable pastor, hear a recognizable sermon, participate in the Lord’s Supper, experience some reverence and decorum, and leave feeling that, in some ways, it WAS a lot like their mom and dad’s church. It’s a moment when reinventing everything may not be as sweet an idea as we were told it was.
It’s a moment when the baby boomer domination of evangelicalism is showing signs of cracking. Some younger people actually want to hear theology. They aren’t judging everything by how seekers evaluate it or what Rick Warren would say about it.
Yes, my mainline friends, we’re having a moment here. You can see it all around the edges of evangelicalism. It’s there and it’s real. It isn’t easy or automatic, but it’s there. And it is sad to realize that at the very time so many are looking for what you have, you’re mostly squandering the moment entirely.
Your churches could be taking in thousands of evangelicals. That’s right. Those recognizably “churchy” churches of yours, with the Christian year, the Biblically rich liturgy, the choir robes, the still-occasionally used hymnals and the multi-generational, slightly blended worship services, could be taking in thousands of evangelicals.
Of course, you’d have to want them. You’d have to, in many ways, meet them halfway or more. You’d need to talk to them as younger evangelicals, not dangerous fundamentalists. You’d have to reconsider how important it is to you to keep homosexual grievances constantly on the front burner. You’d have to start acting like Biblical morality meant something. You’d have to stop acting as if being mainline is a game where you wait to see how fast the membership dies off.
It’s a moment when you need to speak the language of people who want to hear the Bible; a moment when preachers need to preach mature, Biblical evangelical messages.
Those younger evangelicals are ready for your appreciation of tradition, your more balanced theological method, your commitment to multi-generational churches and your more substantial appreciation of justice issues.
But they aren’t ready for the things that have emptied so many of your churches. They will never come if things remain the same. Much needs to change and should change.
You need to communicate, and you need to go back to your roots. It’s frustratingly ironic to know that when many of us are longing for a church that has the things we cannot find in evangelicalism, you have so many of those very things every Sunday. But what you don’t have is the willingness to come back to the center of evangelicalism where people who love the Bible and take it seriously can find a home with you.
You’ve made it clear that you want those on the left. And evangelicals have made it clear that they are not going to accommodate those who want tradition. We’re having a moment here, if you can stop and see it, who knows what could happen? Will your own churches divide in order to meet evangelicals on the road? Or will the moment go by, a “might have been,” that never was to be?
The moment will come and it will go. Right now, the moment is upon all of us.
The Internet Monk Archives 
Hear, hear.
I’m a [former]/[post] evangelical, thoroughly dissatisfied with the shallowness of the evangelical church and seeking a church experience where there is a sense of history that goes back more than 30 years, if it even goes back that far.
I’m looking for something that goes deeper than substitutionary atonement and the Four Spiritual Laws, and to my considerable surprise, I find that I’m looking more and more at the Presbyterian Church I was raised in as something to emulate — I just wish the mainline churches I’ve had experience with were a little more spiritually connected and less of a “This is what we do every Sunday” sort of experience.
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I won’t attempt to respond to 150 comments, but I’ll just leave my story.
I am the son of an Assemblies of God pastor. A very sane and not-crazy-not-heretical pastor. Long story short, Bible College taught me Church History and Theology while I was burning out on mainstream Evangelical culture.
From there I turned to a local Episcopal Church (charismatic/evangelical) and haven’t been happier to be a Christian in a very very long time.
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This may be going out on a limb but as I see things the moment and the crisis related to the moment that iMonk is talking about is that we’re not looking at a problem of consumeristic flocks we’re looking at a problem of consumeristic leadership … in both traditions. The more time goes by and I read and hear Christians opine about the dangers of consumerism the more I see it being a problem not with the led so much as with leaders, or people who simply think they are leaders.
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Just saw a post over at “A Little Leaven” that reminded me of this discussion again. Might even be the one rare time men in the congregation should stand up to silence the guest speaker.
So I don’t know about you guys, but if John Crowder were to ever walk up to the podium at the church I go to … well … I’d be done with evangelicalism for good and I’d be sitting in a Lutheran or Episcopalian church the next Sunday. Thankfully, I’m 90% sure we wouldn’t let Crowder at the podium at my church. Unfortunately, if you look at his list of speaking engagements, other evangelical churches are letting him in.
http://www.alittleleaven.com/2009/01/blasphemy-in-the-church.html
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Michael,
I always appreciate your posts about what mainlines are doing well and where they are failing. I know you identify as a post-evangelical who is coming from the evangelical tradition and looking to mine the broader church for riches and that’s the audience you’re writing to, but myself and I suspect a few other readers of yours are coming the other way. I’m a low-church Anglican getting a little lower all the time as I look to learn from what the evangelical tradition has done well. The post-evangelicals and the post-mainlines need to collaborate more. Are there post-mainlines? There should be. For the people who love the ancient and serious church but are frustrated by the new religious moralism and the flimsy stand for Christ and Him crucified. Anyways, thanks for the encouragement and prodding.
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IMonk,
Can you elaborate a little on that last statement?
Thanks,
Austin
“I’d go a lot of places with infant baptism right now if I could bring along the rest of the Christian tradition.”
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First of all, you’ve done a lot where you are. Celebrate that. I mean really, you’ve seen a lot reclaimed. They are probably as far as they can come.
Where to go?
Virginia and North Carolina. First Baptists in small towns, esp with educated congregations.
The Disciples (Christian) are an option for a lot of people. Same with EFC.
I’d go a lot of places with infant baptism right now if I could bring along the rest of the Christian tradition.
peace
ms
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IMonk,
I’m a baptist in a rural applachian free style (to put it mildly) church. Over the last five years I have been able to structure some thigns some what. We do the Lord’s Prayer, I have added a scripture reading in addition to the sermon text. I have preached the RCL for the last three years even though I’m sure they do not know what that is. I had a fairly scripted Lord’s Supper, but it’s still a struggle. Most of my congregation are willing to follow, but any suggestion that the songs should be thought about before the “Spirit Leads” or if “gasp” we did a responsive reading, I have a small very vocal minority that would rather burn the building down than do it.
My question is two fold.
1. How do baptist reclaim some of the lost beauty of worship? Most of the more formal bapitst churches are Reformed and I am not one who thinks Calvins writings are innerant.
2. Where else can a baptist go? All other churches that have high worship are either 1. Liberal social baptist churches i.e. CBF or denominations that still hold to infant baptism. It’s sort of hard for a convinced baptist, no matter how fed up with shallow worship, to overlook that.
Any help or suggestions from anyone?
Thanks,
austin
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I’m a “lapsed evangelical” for PRECISELY this reason and it is a move I should have made 30 years ago spiritually speaking (but I would not have met my wife and a host of dear friends who have not followed me). I am now Episcopalian.
My Rector described us as “a Bible believing, evangelical, anglo-catholic, episcopal parish”. Extremely high church, old liturgy with the permission of the bishop. Thank God that we get along with him better than many churches in the diocese colser to his theology. I’ll never go back.
And yet, there are those who want to “hipify” our services to entice others to come. The Rector is having none of it. Still, we are flatlined in growth and at 55, I’m close to the median age here.
Question: HOW DO I GET WORD OUT TO FRUSTRATED EVANGELICALS THAT WE EXIST AND WANT YOU TO JOIN US?
You see, most of my friends and former peers like the new and some have left my old church (once relatively “high” for Baptists, now a little this, a little that; “I will spew you out…”, but I digress.) for hipper stuff. A little help?
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Justin, You’re correct in that it was never called liturgy in the COC that my wife was attending when we met and it would have been an “issue” if it had been mentioned. While that particular COC was more “moderate” than others there were still sacred cows just as there are in other churches. Yes, the consistancy was and still is there and the services were always very meaningful to me and many times the messages given by their preaching minister would have preached very well in a baptist church without question.
If things don’t pan out at the baptist church we’re at we are planning to consider several differnt church bodies in the area – AMiA, Christian (DOC) and a non-denom. that is liturgical in style with communion as it’s focal point in the service but has more contempo music insted of sacred though that is used some. The Christian (DOC) church might be an issue since some are so liberal that they could just as easily be a UCC even
though the two aren’t related in their history – don’t know if we can find a conservative one of those anywhere but there is one that might fit the bill but would require a little more research. The AMiA is a definately going to be checked out.
Continuing the journey….
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Guy from Knoxville,
In all my years associated with the cofC (where I grew up), I have never heard someone describe the “order of worship” as a liturgy. My, my, that would float like a lead balloon in the congregations I was a part of.
The thing is, you’re right. And it’s pretty consistent no matter which one you meet with.
My disenfranchisement grows… 🙂
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Well, evangelicals have decided that what was youth group camp and retreat nonsense will now be the regular order of service. Hats of to the RCC again.
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I will observe ruefully that the RCC is not immune to “shallow, traditionless, grown up youth group” religious experiences either. They don’t usually show up in routine weekly worship, but retreats? Oy.
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Michael, Amen a thousand times over on the destruction of worship, spirituality and meaningful church membership…. while this is not the case in every single baptist church sadly, it’s true in most these days. Listen, my wife was raised in the church of Christ and I don’t have to tell you the things we went through early in our dating and marriage relationship. She eventually decided to join the baptist church however, at the time we met she was attending a “moderate/liberal” COC – I know…. what am I talking about… a moderate or liberal COC??? Yes, the COC she was attending in the nort part of Knoxville was considered by other COC’s, including the one she was raised in, to be moderate/liberal because they preached salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone and because they “allowed” or “fellowshiped” people from other demonations.
Now what’s the point here – at this time in this journey we’ve talked of going back to the COC in north Knoxville if we leave the baptist church we are in now. The particular COC in north Knoxville has a definate liturgy – typically as follows:
Opening Prayer
hymn
Prayer
Communion hymn
Communion
hymn
offering
message (sermon)
invitation/with hymn
baptism
closing prayer
closing hymn
That was pretty much it in a nutshell as best I remember it and while it is simplistic it’s still a liturgy and it was always a meaningful time of worship and especially meaningful during Communion which was taken at every week during the Sunday morning service. Of course being an organist would be a little difficult initially as COC’s do not use music instruments or choirs – all singing is by the congregation without accompaniment which is very beautiful as this particular congregation sang very, very well together.
I could deal with attending the COC my wife was at when we met as they did actually preach truth and the gospel was always presented clearly and uncompromised. Yes the baptism emphasis was there as you would expect however, this church stressed the grace and faith aspect more than other COC’s. Your accepting Christ by grace through faith was always ahead of the the baptism not before which makes this COC different from most – so much so that another COC in the city wanted to use the the building and baptistry of the north Knox COC once for a baptism service since they didn’t yet have one but the stipulation was that the building be opened and left for their use and no member of the COC that owned the place could be there while they had their baptism service – that’s how liberal this church was thought to be and what they call liberal in a COC is conservative in most other churches. Neeless to say the church requesting use of the building did not get it!
Too long again…. can’t seem to be short and consise – hope this helps a little.
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Benb,
My wife came back from a conference a while ago where she heard Phyllis Tickle’s Great Convergence presentation and thought it was great. I have to say–with the caveat that I have not heard her in person–that I’m unconvinced that the convergence will form a new majority. I think there is some convergence going on, and it may result in a new paradigm where “blended worship” no longer has to be called “blended.” But ultimately, I don’t think the perspectives on worship embodied by Northpoint and Incarnation are compatible.
I have a friend who can’t stand liturgy–it feels dead to him, while I don’t feel at all like I’ve been to church when I visit his congregation (I feel like I’ve been listening to an ipod, seen a performance and heard a lecture on something, but not to worship) I’m not sure there is a single way of doing things that could bring us together on Sunday morning, thought our perspectives are not that different otherwise.
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Sometimes I despair in that our ways of worship are still miles apart, despite Phyllis Tickle’s Great Convergence. As illustration, here are two interesting videos, one from a megachurch in Atlanta http://www.northpoint.org/ (click on “Before you Attend) and the other from a old but growing Episcopal church in Dallas http://www.incarnation.org/pages/Angelus (click on welcome video). Each church is filled with folks from the likes of the opposing video.
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Baptists have pretty much destroyed worship, spirituality and meaningful church membership. All they have left is missions and evangelism.
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imonk, yeah, I went from Catholic to Baptist and now PCA and so far, PCA is head and shoulders above the first two in terms of the potency of worship. I think there should always be a little mystery and suprise in worship but in the Baptist tradition that comes in the form of “Oh my, what the heck is going to happen next….. whoa, don’t ask that deacon to pray extemporaneously….oh, please don’t tell me we are going to do another skit…….dance?? are you serious….” and so on.
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Will S: My specific criticism of the PCA was that the dominant segment of leadership was hostile to higher forms of liturgy, specifically the Christian year. I appreciate the liturgy that is part of my son’s PCA and would gladly exchange the circus in the typical Baptist church for the liturgy of the PCA.
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The first line of the past paragraph should read: “I believe–as does my Bishop incidently…” He might believe it indecently as well, but that wasn’t the point :-p
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I’d love to hear other responses to the above as well–I don’t want to side-track the thread however, so I’m posting on my blog (linked to my name) about this subject and would invite comment there, or via email:
frjody@stfrancis-tn.net
Thanks!
In regards to this post, I commented on it originally, and it described my own faith journey. I was raised in a Southern Baptist family, but realized that I desired a less rationalistic approach to the faith, as well as a greater knowledge of and respect for the great tradition of the Church. I visited a lot of different congregations… from ELCA to Methodist (more “liturgical” than my Baptist roots) to Eastern Orthodox. Finally when I was in college I overcame my concerns about the perceived liberalism of the Episcopal Church in my area and visited a congregation and the rest is history.
I am now the vicar of a mission church in the Diocese of Tennessee.
I suppose one conclusion I have come to–even since the first time this was posted–is that most of the time when people complain about a denomination being “too liberal” or not taking the Bible seriously it is really a smoke-screen because so few people really take the Bible seriously at all… it just seems that those in supposedly conservative denominations want to talk about it in more serious ways and have people they can point to who they believe live holy lives–even while their own life may actually be far more removed from righteousness than many of the “liberals” they malign for not talking tough.
I’m not so much criticizing the faithful members of any particular church as I am those folks who church shop and allow disagreements with denominations etc… to prevent them from growing in the faith by being part of an actual community of fellow believers, and committing themselves for the long haul. It’s much easier to remain aloof and criticize than it is to do the hard work that the faith and community demand.
My advice to anyone considering a mainline congregation, is to find a local church where the Gospel is preached and the faith is taken seriously. Become part of that congregation and commit to being there. Take part in the leadership when you feel able. Recognize that the various denominational boats are being rocked by a tremendous storm on our collective cultural sea and they may react differently. But, in the end, what is important is the faith that is proclaimed in your community and the fact that it is faithful.
I believe–as does my Bishop indecently–that we are facing the reality that our denominations are dying (not just liberal ones). Ironically, the Church in the west may be facing the reality of the Cross, and it may have to die (in its current structures) so that it can live again. But this doesn’t mean we should abandon ship, or not commit ourselves… regardless of what happens to the institutions, these various traditions will continue in some form, and it is the faithful people and congregations who practice the faith in those traditions who will survive the transition.
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Edmund Pevensie said: (#
I’m always curious when I hear people make comments like this. What sort of “systems” do you feel restricted your access to God? As an Episcopal Priest I am often frustrated by what I can only describe as “clericalism in the wrong areas” where people wouldn’t dream of listening to pastoral counsel in areas where it really matters (you’ve gone from preaching to meddling etc…) but use the fact that the clergy person might know more on a given subject in the Bible (surprise, surprise, it is our responsibility) as an excuse not to study it themselves. I guess what I’m trying to say is that, unless one is in a legalistic tradition, most of the barriers people feel between them and God in any given church in the US seem to me to be pretty much self-imposed, so I’m interested to hear some specific things that make people feel this way so that I can avoid them like the plague in my own ministry (or explain things in a more constructive way).
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But I think what some of us are saying is not that we’d prefer a dead liturgical church to a vibrant “low liturgy” one. Rather, we’d like a vibrant higher liturgy church to any of the other options. I know at least for me, despite the other areas of vibrancy the contemporary style churches I’ve been attending, I’m still wanting more. More reverence, more connection to history, more beauty, more mystery, more of a sense of calm and peace rather than cacophony and frenzy.
No one is asking for liturgy as an end unto itself. We see it as a component of something deeper and more meaningful that the contemporary churches just aren’t able to give.
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As an ex Catholic, I actually love and miss the high liturgy. The problem is that liturgy itself is not sufficient and I would much prefer to attend a vibrant church with a low liturgy than a dead church with a beautiful liturgy. I am now part of the PCA which, despite various comments to the contrary here, seems to have decent liturgy while remaining vibrant from a evangelical standpoint.
I think we should all keep in mind that there are no right answers here. The world is a big place and there is a huge segment of the population that does not attend church at all. I think there is a real value to having churches of all types so long as we are working together and not competitive. It sort of makes me sick that many church leaders spend all their time thinking about how they can compete with other churches. They need to start thinking about reaching the majority that has no connection to church at all.
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“Evangelicals are getting sick and tired of shallow, traditionless, grown up youth group religion.”
Just a word of caution to people here. My son, who is 14, but is very wise for his years has experienced a number of different churches. Everything from Mainline liturgical, to very seeker sensitive, to charismatic, and a somewhat middle of the road Baptist church that we currently attend. His comment about the mainline church was “the music was very interesting, I think its purpose was to lull you to sleep just before the Pastor started preaching.”
My point is this: My children are actively involved in church. Yes, my son would like to go to the “killer worship band” seeker sensitive church, but he is reasonably happy in the middle of the road church that we have chosen. If we were to go to the mainline church, (which has one of the best church choirs that you can possibly imagine), there is a much greater likelihood that my kids would switch off of church.
Sure I would like something broader and deeper, but not at the expense of my kids’ interest. As parents though, we will to give them exposure to a range of churches, so that when they are older, they can start to make these decisions for themselves.
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I have to ban myself from commenting when I get fed up with other things (however related) going on in my own church. I still stand by most of that comment, particularly the “it’s time to get more aggressive” part. But I was wrong – interrupting the preacher is probably a really bad idea 99 times out of 100. Not for reasons of courage as much as for decorum, pastoral authority, and the fact that we can’t have everyone thinking they can speak up and tell the pastor when he’s wrong.
There are probably a few times to do this (denial of the gospel for ex.), and Eclectic Christian might have picked one of those times, but I could still see it getting really ugly really quickly. I’ve only done this once in a Bible study taught by a pastor (a less formal setting), and it contributed to the eventual canceling of the Bible study – something I’m not proud of. If they make dumb but not particularly Scripture violating comments (like how we can learn from Oprah), there is no reason you can’t pull the speaker aside afterwards (especially if you are a deacon or elder like Eclectic Christian).
IMonk said that evangelicals are getting sick and tired of “shallow, traditionless, grown up youth group religion.” Well that describes me. Finding another mainline church that has something different to offer would be great. And I also agree that we do need to avoid the “consumerism” attitude towards church warned against here in some of the comments. For now, I’m trying to take up the fight a little more aggressively than normal at my church, and I could see it either helping change things or getting me sent off packing. Other friends I talk to are feeling the same way – there is something missing and we’re all very frustrated because of it.
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Eclectic Christian – Michael Bell
“I interrupted a guest speaker once. (I was an elder and the church was between pastors.)
Trust me. You do not want to do this!”
I assume things got interesting. 🙂
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I interrupted a guest speaker once. (I was an elder and the church was between pastors.)
Trust me. You do not want to do this!
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“So to arms I say! If the teacher or pastor or the worship leader says something that isn’t Biblical, stand up (even if it’s in the middle of a worship service or sermon), read from your Bible, and correct the error. If this means openly contradicting the speaker, don’t bite your tongue, openly contradict him.”
What about the less obvious issues. Like talking about what Christians can learn from Oprah since she’s a good Christian down deep. A statement that was 1/2 of what pushed me out of my last church.
There’s no verse xxxx which contradicts this.
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Justin, the issue is not CCM vs hymns, though it often ends up seeming that way because we’ve had decades or centuries to filter out the truly sucky hymns while K-Love and the like are foisting more schlocky Jesus-is-my-boyfriend “worship” fare on us every week.
No, it’s good music that is conducive to worship versus bad music which is not. And it’s not mere subjectivity. There are good CCM songs and bad hymns for instance. But overwhelmingly, the CCM stuff we’re being fed is infantile, simplistic, replete with bad or underdeveloped theology and trite. And people are even writing wonderful modern hymns such as “In Christ Alone” and “How Deep The Father’s Love For Us.” And I’m sorry, but it’s not subjective to point out the superiority of such songs over things like “Enemy’s Camp.” There just isn’t. If you want to measure it with a slide rule and a protractor, maybe that doesn’t satisfy you. But to some degree when listening to music and determining whether something is fitting and conducive to worship and whether it is good art, it’s like the judge’s comments on what is pornography. His reply, “I just know it when I see it.”
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Michael,
I read Diana Butler Bass’s book, Christianity for the Rest of Us, and it outlined many ways that mainline churches are finding revitalization, particularly as “neighborhood” churches. I recommend it to readers of this post, though some of the things she calls “revitalization” many evangelicals would deem a step backward.
What are some specific examples you know of mainline churches that are actively reaching out and attracting evangelicals and including them in congregations that respect the conservative traditions and theological stances that they represent?
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Disenfranchisement?
Exclusion?
You’ve lost me.
Paul clearly believes there are objective aesthetic values. None of us perceive them as God does, but we can perceive the difference between all kinds of aesthetics. And we can perceive the false distinctions. If there weren’t objective aesthetics of truth, what are you trying to convince anyone about? Your opinion would have no objective superiority as “true.”
You’ve really lost me on this entire adventure, and we’ve wandered very, very far from the opportune moment many mainline churches have to appeal to evangelicals, which is the point of this post.
So peace and adieu.
ms
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Subjectivity is not nonsense. Paul uses “whatever is”. Paul is telling the church to allow for subjectivity under the context of mutual encouragement. In context the qualifier is encouraging others. Having one to the exclusion of the other (which is the real issue here) disenfranchises instead of encouraging. There is no justification in the NT that I can find for disenfranchising members of the church for any reason, not least of which is false propriety.
“That just isn’t right” isn’t a good reason.
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The many, many discussions here at IM have urged evangelicals not to throw out hymns, and while the criticism of the flood of new music has been strong at times, this blog has never taken the position that CCM is all wrong. In fact, there are numerous posts praising numerous CCM artists and promoting their work. My podcast uses Pierce Pettis, Randy Stonehill. Several posts have invited listeners to list CCM that they find worthwhile. I have always commended the new music that was Christ centered and of worth. Look at my review of the new Baptist Hymnal.
Yes, some commenters have made sweeping statements, but this blog and the vast majority of its audience are plenty savvy enough to know that there is good music of all times and eras.
And Phil 4:8 is objective or its nonsense.
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Preference.
Regardless of what anyone’s opinion is, there are many who think CCM songs are honorable, pure, lovely, and excellent. And, there are many who think hymns are honorable, pure, lovely, and excellent. Good! Dwell on those things! But why do both sides blame the other for ruining worship? Why not submit to one another out of love?
This whole “one is obviously better than the other” thing is craziness to me. That is my neurosis. It doesn’t have to be yours.
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Objective or personal preference, Justin:
Phil 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
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I, publicly, apologize to Michael for calling him a nickname which was offensive. I am a dolt, sometimes. I’m sorry.
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Ragamuffin,
Beauty (and thus art, songs, etc.) are in the eye of the beholder. You like what you like.
Art is not objective, else it would be science.
I’ll repeat it again… this whole issue is about holding up preferences over mutual submission and encouragement. And the cycle will repeat, ad nauseum, until one lets the other have their way some of the time.
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I simply don’t believe that everything is merely a matter of opinion and “everyone’s got one.” Some songs are objectively better than others. They are better in lyrical content and sometimes better musically. Just as an extreme example, I offer the lyrics to “Praise To The Lord, The Almighty” versus “Eneny’s Camp” (a popular chorus in charismatic circles).
Praise To The Lord, The Almighty
Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, the King of creation!
O my soul, praise Him, for He is thy health and salvation!
All ye who hear,
Now to His temple draw near;
Sing now in glad adoration!
Praise to the Lord, who o’er all things so wondrously reigneth,
Shelters thee under His wings, yea so gently sustaineth
Hast thou not seen,
How thy desires all have been,
Granted in what He ordaineth?
Praise to the Lord, who doth prosper thy work and defend thee
Who from the heavens the streams of His mercy doth send thee.
Ponder anew,
What the Almighty can do,
Who with His love doth befriend thee.
Praise to the Lord! Oh, let all that is in me adore Him!
All that hath life and breath, come now with praises before Him!
Let the Amen,
Sound from His people again;
Gladly for aye we adore Him.
Enemy’s Camp
Well, I went to the enemy’s camp and
I took back what he stole from me
I took back what he stole from me
I took back what he stole from me
Oh, I went to the enemy’s camp and
I took back what he stole from me
You know
He’s under my feet
He’s under my feet
He’s under my feet
He’s under my feet
He’s under my feet
He’s under my feet
Satan is under my feet
(repeat ad nauseum)
Not only is the first one musically superior to the other by any measure but the lyrical content is head and shoulders above the latter. ESPECIALLY when the context is a worship service.
One can make the statements iMonk made about “grown up youth group” music and still allow that there are modern hymns and praise songs that are actually good and conducive to worship. It just seems there are a whole lot of really bad ones and just a few good ones in the average Sunday service.
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Obed, you stated:
… the vast majority of what’s pushed is fluffy crap with no substance… by-and-large, those songs were HORRIBLE musically and lyrically…
How is this not an example of, a “my songs are better worship than your songs are†argument?
You’re entitled to your opinion [MOD edited.]
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No one made that argument, or ever has made that argument, in 8 years on this site.
Well, is it just sentimentalism, then? What, IS the argument of hymns over CCM?
What I said was, “Individual preference now is overriding submission to one another.”
Is that what’s going on with passover, the Lord’s Supper and all the NT mentions of traditions?
Absolutley, yes. God set up these things with the meaning of rememberance behind them. If there is no remembering (which I would argue is exactly the case in the vast majority of LS/Communion/Eucharist observances), then they are nothing but empty rote. How can any of us observe them in any sort of meaningful way if we haven’t been taught what we’re remembering? It doesn’t just come on it’s own.
You’re reading the Bible as a radical individualist apparently.
Careful, [MOD: Don’t use my name, please. Especially not “Mike.”] People who live in glass houses…
Where did you get the idea that Rom 12 means you get to wipe out everything except what is meaningful to YOU?
I didn’t. You threw that on me to set up the straw man. Throw your “individualist” label on someone else. I explicitly stated that the commands of scripture regarding our gatherings are in the context of encouraging one another… perhaps you missed that. [MOD: Disagreement doesn’t mean someone “missed” anything.]
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NP. I don’t hear “mass” used generically very much, and my evangelical readers might be confused.
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I was using “Mass” in a generic sense as Anglican, Episcopalian, some Luthern, and some Presby liturgical services often have the same elements… or at least VERY similar elements in my experience.
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At the risk of speaking for iMonk, I think what he was referring to is the way that much of CCM is pushed by the same techniques and often by the same people as Top 40 pop radio. This includes the various worship labels and sub-labels. Who decides what CCM songs are good? K-Love. It’s not a style issue, it’s a lowest-common-denominator marketing issue. Sure there are some good songs out there, but the vast majority of what’s pushed is fluffy crap with no substance. And what makes it popular is marketing rather than any intrinsic value.
I spent many years as the worship leader at my old church. By-and-large when specific songs were requested by either the pastor or the congregation it was because people had heard ’em on K-Love or “all the other churches are playing them” And by-and-large, those songs were HORRIBLE musically and lyrically and didn’t made the cut on my watch.
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Justin:
>….It is dubious to make it a “my songs are better worship than your songs are†argument.
No one made that argument, or ever has made that argument, in 8 years on this site. Of course, dozens of people have responded to that argument, because they are committed to that view themselves in regard to CCM.
>….tradition only has value to the one observing it. Traditions do not have inherent value in and of themselves.
Is that what’s going on with passover, the Lord’s Supper and all the NT mentions of traditions? Radical individualism? I don’t think so. God is installing tradition in the passover and the LS.
That’s a serious charge you are making about tradition. It will eat up whatever you install in your churches and eventually leave you with nothing but the rule of the individualists. Not a good thing.
>...No elements are proscribed.
You’re reading the Bible as a radical individualist apparently. I Timothy commands preaching, public readding of scripture. Hebrews commands gathering. I Cor commands an offering and the LS. Psalms commands liturgy. On and on this goes.
Where did you get the idea that Rom 12 means you get to wipe out everything except what is meaningful to YOU? Where did you get permission to throw out what Jesus practiced? Why aren’t you a Quaker? Why do you baptize? Why gather at all if I find internet sermons more meaningful?
peace
ms
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Obed: The question was about the mainlines, not the RCC. Eager Catholic friends please don’t be over-eager.
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The entire Eucharistic Service revolves around this. I think that so many Christians who dismiss the value of the traditional liturgy in the Mass (I’m using this term in a generic sense that can be applied to many denominations) either have never read/experienced it or just remember being bored by “rote” prayer rather than seriously considering the content. It’s POWERFUL Christ-centered stuff. When I go to either a mainline or a Catholic Sunday service I never have to worry about Jesus only getting a cameo or about not hearing the Gospel.
I really think it’s a “he who has ears to hear” sort of thing. I can respect the idea that liturgy just doesn’t “do it” for some folks. But that’s not the liturgy’s fault. Just like my personal difficulties with corporate spontaneous prayer isn’t the prayers’ fault.
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After reading Justin’s response (which I had to click on in several places to read the whole thing) I think I will just let him take up my side. He explains things better than I. Besides, I better get back to work!
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Good questions all. Other people will be better able to answer than myself, but here is my take:
Consumerism has obviously affected every area of American culture, and it would be naïve to think any Church fully escapes its claws. That said, I don’t know how much of the failures of any church’s worship is to be attributed to consumerism per se, rather than our persistent tendency to idolatry (in this case, forming Church in our own image). As for where the songs come from, I won’t attempt to discern Chris Tomlin’s or Matt Redman’s motives. All I know is that some of their songs express a certain spiritual truth more clearly than any other songs I can think of, and so I schedule them to be sung. For example, I was recently preaching through Ephesians 1, and, as usual, wanted part of the worship songs to be a response to the truth of the sermon and scriptures. Verse 4 was the key passage, where it speaks of God choosing us before the creation of the world to be adopted as His sons. The song which most clearly seemed to express this truth in a worshipful way was, “Before there was Time†(by Caedman’s Call).
As for tradition, I try to follow Jesus’ words in Matthew 13:52, about bringing out treasures both old and new. This year will begin with a three month series on the attributes of God. We will recite the Apostle’s Creed (something we don’t normally do). Many of the songs will be hymns. As for communion, in our church it is “traditional†to do this monthly. I work hard to make the Lord’s Supper understood and appreciated.
As for Divas of the stage, yes that does concern me. At my church we have four different worship teams that rotate, and other people who lead the hymns. Other churches will have to answer for themselves. I know this may be an issue with some large churches, but I haven’t seen it too much in my neck of the woods.
Your last question is one I have been wrestling with on and off for some time. I Corinthians 12-14 give the fullest picture of worship in a New Testament Church, and I struggle with how much of that is to be considered normative and proscriptive. While I am certainly still learning, my own approach is to try to incorporate the principles of worship from the scriptures, rather than duplicating the forms of that worship. The exception to this is the passage you alluded to in I Timothy, which seems to me to be very proscriptive.
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MS,
I have heretofore tried my best to stay out of this thread… but I just can’t help it. Not speaking for Daniel, I have my own answers to your questions to him:
Where do all those contemporary songs come from?
It seems there may be an assumption that all “contemporary” songs are a result of consumerist influence. If that is true, then so are all the precious hymns in the hymnal, for at one time they, too, were contemporary and written to satisfy someone’s need for something new or different in that time. Handel, Crosby, and Newton were not more purely inspired to write songs than Tomlin, Powell, or Hillsong.
To many, the old hymns have deep meaning. To many others, the new songs have deep meaning. The problem here is not the songs themselves, but the fact that the two groups aren’t made of of the same people. Individual preference now is overriding submission to one another. It is dubious to make it a “my songs are better worship than your songs are” argument.
Do you believe tradition has any value?
Like the songs, tradition only has value to the one observing it. Traditions do not have inherent value in and of themselves. Only when the underlying meaning or historical relevance of the tradition is discussed, passed down, and is incorporated in the act will tradition be anything other than an empty act. That is the problem… the traditions of the church have been passed down through the generations, but in our current time, the underlying meaning has been lost, or at minimum not even discussed. Why are smells and bells meaningful? Why is liturgy important? Why is communion transcendent? Why is a capella singing special? What does baptism mean? Who knows… no one ever explained that to us. All this generation has received is “do it, or else”.
Why were they disposalable and replaceable… ?
Again, because they were stripped of the meaning that kept them in the heart of those who came before us. None of it has any meaning because no one passed that meaning on to their children. They are nothing, now, but boring, empty acts to them.
And finally, does scripture proscribe any elements of worship?
According to my reading (again, IMHO) true worship as described by Romans 12:1 and James 1:27 have very little to do with the “elements” commonly commanded in the worship wars. No elements are proscribed, as I see it. Responsive readings, liturgy, public readings, and singing are all discussed in the context of encouraging one another, not as a neo-levitical worship code.
–Justin
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It strikes me reading through these comments, and reflecting on these issues, that perhaps part of the appeal of the “worshiptainment†is that we enjoy new and exciting and interesting things when we we are being entertained… — Rev Mc Cain
In the Book of Acts, when St Paul is in Athens, doesn’t Luke mention that the Athenians were obsessed with “hearing and talking about the Latest New Thing”?
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Dainel:
Do you think consumerism has any effect at all on worship in the contemporary church? Where do all those contemporary songs come from?
Do you believe tradition has any value? Why was it wise to throw away the lectionary? Weekly communion? Confesssions? Creeds? Why were they disposalable and replaceable with more talking from the people on stage?
Does it concern you that the new worship style creates so many “divas of worship?” Of both genders?
And finally, does scripture proscribe any elements of worship? When we see responsive reading in the Psalms or liturgy in Revelation or a command for public scripture reading in I Tim, what do we do with that?
peace
ms
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Chaplain Mike hit the nail on the head:
“Let’s be careful that we are not creating our kind of “consumerism†here. As if finding a more liturgical or traditional or mainline church will satisfy our “needs†better than a contemporary evangelical church.†I also think we need to be careful not to generalize with such terms as “shallowâ€, “grown-up youth group†and “worshiptainment†without any analysis of why those terms apply to most evangelical churches. There seems to be an unconscious bias that what is old and traditional is somehow deeper or more profound than what is newer and more spontaneous.
For example, the newer modern music is often criticized as shallow or trite (with the implication that the songs in the hymnal or more spiritual and doctrinal). When someone actually attempts to prove this point, they usually end up comparing the best songs of the past with the most vacuous songs of the present (and yes, “Our Love is Loud†does not compare well with, “A Mighty Fortressâ€). This should be seen as the fallacy it is. A song like, “How Great is Our God†has just as much biblical truth as almost any song in the hymnal, and “In Christ Alone†(Getty and Townend) makes many of the old hymns look almost infantile. If you doubt that last statement, then examine the words to “In Christ Alone†closely compared with such classics as, “O that will be Glory for meâ€, “I’d Rather have Jesusâ€, “Beneath the Cross of Jesus†or any of the songs by Fanny Crosby (she has 16 contributions in my hymnal).
Obviously to compare things fully would take much work (easier to dismiss things with an insult).
Perhaps a better question to ask than which format is “deeper†is to examine what God thinks of each style or worship. After all, it is His church, not ours. The difficulty here, or course, is that of discerning His thoughts on this. Since most of these issues are not directly addressed in the Scriptures, it will take serious reflection on those things that God has revealed about Himself.
In my own life, this has boiled down to the following principles regarding church and worship:
• Worship is, first and foremost, something that should please God
• God is pleased when worship is the true response of a person’s heart when seeing or understanding God’s glory and goodness
• God is pleased when the form of worship models His own attributes of truth and beauty
• God is pleased when worship exalts His attributes and nature, the work of Jesus, and the presence and power of the Spirit
• God is pleased when worship displays and celebrates both His transcendence and His immanence
• God is pleased when worship leads the worshippers to greater Christ-likeness
I certainly see areas where my own evangelical church does not measure up in several of these areas as much as it should (and I’m the one who gets to plan the services!), especially in the third, fifth and last items mentioned. I don’t have enough experience in mainline churches to comment very well on how they measure up here, and I don’t want to be guilty of hasty generalizations. I suspect, though, that just as I must be purposeful and intentional to help people to see the transcendence of God (that is, His absolute separation from and superiority to ourselves and our world), that many traditional churches might struggle to display His immanence (that is, His intimate presence and involvement in our lives). And while I cannot say I am satisfied with either my own or my church’s Christ-likeness, I will be frank enough to say that in my limited experience most evangelicals I know take this issue more seriously than those I have known from mainline churches (again, a generalization). Finally, I have lingering questions about how clearly many of the mainline churches proclaim the very heart of the gospel: Christ’s substitution for our sin on the cross.
This explains why I will not be heading down Main Street anytime soon (well, plus the fact that many mainline churches seem to place themselves above Scripture instead of below it). However, to modify a famous quote, “it takes the whole people of God to display the whole glory of Godâ€, and so I am glad that liturgical churches exist, and I pray that those which preach the gospel will thrive.
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When I left evangelicalism, I ran straight into the arms of the Religious Society of Friends. My meeting is under the Ohio Yearly Meeting, which is the most conservative yearly meeting in the U.S. and is very specifically Christian. That was very important to me – I would never go to one of the more liberal meetings where people might actually gasp if you stood up and said the name of Jesus, and where they just talk generically about “The Divine.”
But, here’s what I love: There’s only six of us. When one of our members broke her ankle and couldn’t drive to meeting, we went to her. Because meeting doesn’t have to be in the meeting house. It can be wherever there are two or more of us. Currently, someone is going through something and hasn’t been coming. So, we’re going after that one. There’s just too few of us not to try and work this out. We will not let that one go without a fight (so to speak). Each one of the other five people in my meeting is precious to me and I to them.
As Friends, we don’t observe sarcraments. But, every month we have a meal together, and I feel like that meal is much closer to what communion was meant to be than anything I ever experienced in a traditional church. The coming together to prepare the food, eating together, and then cleaning up together helps to bind us together and make us a family.
Carolyn, what if there is no *right way* to worship. I find it incredibly unlikely that God created us all individuals just so we could lock step together in uniform church services. To me, the meeting has been a balm to a badly wounded soul. You might find waiting in The Silence to be nothing short of maddening.
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I’m with you Amanda. Every time I pray the general confession, I find things jumping to mind that I need to consider and specifically confess to the Lord and deal with. And the “things we have left undone” thing really gets me. It reminds me that the Christian life does not just involve avoiding obvious sins…the “don’t” of the Bible. There are tons of things we’re called to be doing that I fall far short of.
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Those little prepackaged communion wafers with juice just seem so isolating, so starkly individualistic. Sharing a chalice says to me, “we are brothers and sisters in Christ.” I’m not saying that having individual cups is just totally inferior, but that it gives up some good symbolism that I find really meaningful.
One of the chaplains on post (a Methodist) likes to sometimes say “the blood of Christ, shed for you and for me” when he’s presenting the chalice.
Our Army chapel group in Germany, by the way, is mixture of Episcopalians, Lutherans with a few Methodists and Presbyterians who preferred the (usually Episcopalian) liturgy of our service to the praise chorus-filled Protestant service.
The chaplain who usually leads the services is an Episcopal priest who could actually give some of the Southern Baptist pastors I grew up with some serious competition in the pulpit. The liturgy pretty much forces him to fit the sermon into 10-15 minutes, which is usually enough time to say what we can contemplate at once. Even more oddly, I find his sermons to be more Christ-centric and personally challenging than a lot of what I’ve heard in the last few years from “evangelical” pastors back home in Texas! It’s not hard to hear that certain activities I’m not interested in participating in are sinful (and might even cause me to indulge in a bit of smugness); it is hard to hear that we are not treating the poor in a Christ-like manner when I realize that as a middle-class American, I am among the wealthiest people in the world, and should be doing more to care for “the least of these”.
The fixed, dignified liturgy leaves me freer to really think about what it is I need to do. Nothing like hitting that “and what I have left undone” phrase in the confessional prayer to jog my memory! We don’t ask forgiveness only for sinful acts, but for intentionally forgone opportunities for doing good.
And not enough is said of the potential usefulness of a set schedule of Bible readings for pulling a preacher off a hobbyhorse…
If the current evangelical worship styles help you feel closer to God and make it easier for you to do justice and love mercy, then that’s where you should be. If not, go looking. Cultural elements become traditions for a reason.
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Steve S.
I agree with everything that you just wrote. I would change only one thing. “After worship service rather than during”
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Michael,
And now for something completely different…
What I’m seeing all over the internet (and here in this post) is a viscious cycle. Everybody seems to be at a different point on that cycle. People get bored with liturgy and tradition, so they leave for a religion by the seat of the pants… which after a while gets boring, so they leave in search of liturgy and trad…
American Christianity has a problem. There’s no “one anothers” in the Sunday church meeting. We sit on our hands while the professionals “do the ministry.” Yes, we sing with 275 people, but when I’m out sick or something, do the other 274 people miss me? Do I have an affect on anybody else’s life by showing up and going through the motions? NO. We silently eat a wafer and drink from a thimble, but is that communion? I think we so concentrate on God, the first great commandment, that we neglect our neighbors, the second great commandment. People sense this, and can feel the same loneliness and individualism by not even going to church as they do in church.
People want to participate in life, to mean something to other people just as they want others to mean something to them. In 1 Corinthians 12-14 (I would encourage you to read this), Paul is talking about the Sunday meeting, where the people minister to each other as opposed to a “ministry toward/ministered to” division. Paul says, “Let all things be done for edification.” 1 Cor. 14:26. Is sitting on my hands all morning edifying to others? NO.
I think churches need to find ways for the people to minister to one another during the church service. “Checking my problems at the door”, while it sounds good as a way to more purely worship God, only means that my problems will be there – unchanged in any way – when I leave. It’s time for evangelicals – both mainlines and non-denom’s – to rethink church. Not redefine it, but rethink how to apply it the way the bible defines it. What is supposed to happen in the church meeting? The bible tells us. Let’s do it.
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Alrighty then.. 92 posts. And from the counsel of many, the collective wisdom seems to be:
1. Many evangelicals are leaving the church.
2. Main line denominations are not answering the question any better than the evangelical circus
3. While evangelical churches can be easy targets for “worshiptainment” and consumerism, there should be a strong awareness for mainliners to avoid their own version of consumerism.
4. Few mainline churches focus on reaching out to these disillusioned evangelicals, let alone anything outside tradition.
So I have to ask, it seems to me that the first question anybody has to ask is simply, what is the purpose of the church? I mean seriously, if consumerism is the point – then let’s just manage the expectations folks. Let’s develop a menu of options – say, a standardized list of features like say when you purchase a car –
 Base Model – Liturgy,
o Corporate Worship, Confession, Scripture reading, etc.
 Options – (choose any 3)…
o street ministry,
o benevolence ministry,
o children’s ministry,
o Sunday school,
o outreach,
o annual carnival committee or….
Might prevent buyer’s remorse…
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OK, iMonk, next time the mainline churches or something like it comes up, I’ll post a short version of my journey from evangelical baptistic to evangelical mainline and all the little Anglican-Episcopal church we are now at met us where we were at.
I’ll work on it between now and then.
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Let’s be careful that we are not creating our kind of “consumerism” here. As if finding a more liturgical or traditional or mainline church will satisfy our “needs” better than a contemporary evangelical church.
Michael, I like something you said on a podcast earlier this year. If we truly want to get away from the consumer church, let us seek to get involved in a church that is poor, that has little to offer in terms of impressing anyone. Let us roll up our sleeves and join them in a common life of living and sharing the Gospel with their neighbors.
Many mainline churches in small communities and inner city settings offer just such an opportunity.
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“… be sure and ask yourself by what authority you are able to tell someone they are off track and how you will avoid having 150 people with Bibles shouting at each other.”
Touche. You’re right. And I did see that some people are finding more satisfying homes in mainline churches. That’ awesome. I’m still struggling to find a balance. I sense a leadership vacuum at my church right now, and my friends and I are feeling responsible to step in to try to fill it (at our respective churches) even though it seems like we’re a little young for it (20-somethings).
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J.P. – I think a wiser course would be do meet with your church’s leaders. They have the responsibility for unity and maturity.
I hope you read some of the posts of people who are not just going to one church or church hopping, but are sampling what is there in their area different from their own church. All churches conserve/emphasize some good things and all have lost other things. A more generous geographic sense of church is a good way to say No to consumer church and the church hopping/shopping.
But when you stand up with your Bible to make that judgment, be sure and ask yourself by what authority you are able to tell someone they are off track and how you will avoid having 150 people with Bibles shouting at each other.
peace
ms
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Call to arms! I keep hearing how so many others besides myself are feeling this huge disatisfaction and emptiness in their churches. Depending on the local church, some mainline churches may have an answer to this, many don’t, and IMonk says that more of them should start waking up.
But what are we, as evangelicals, to do in the meantime? I’ve tried the going from church to church routine more than once in my college years. There were a few years going to college, where I tried attending up to 15 different churches in one year. There’s always going to be problems and you eventually have to settle down somewhere in order to serve.
So to arms I say! If the teacher or pastor or the worship leader says something that isn’t Biblical, stand up (even if it’s in the middle of a worship service or sermon), read from your Bible, and correct the error. If this means openly contradicting the speaker, don’t bite your tongue, openly contradict him. If the worshiptainment at your church has gotten out of control, start saying so to people at church. Confront the worship leader. Others will probably agree with you anyway, just no one has the courage to say anything. If the church is neglecting a ministry that needs to be filled, start the ministry yourself. If you hear a young person being told that something is against the Bible when it’s not, go correct the corrector (right in front of the young person). It’s time to be men, stop worrying about division (which we’ve self-defeatingly shunned without avoiding it anyway), stop worrying that you might get kicked out of evangelicalism (if you’re at this point, you’re leaving if things don’t change as it is). I say it’s time to stop messing around.
And of course, we should all aggressively do this in the spirit of charity, not judging others, not trying to argue for arguments’ sake or prove any points, but because the situation we’re in is only going to get worse unless we have the guts to start doing something about it. I’ve been taking this approach, it doesn’t make some people at my church happy, it offends others, and all of a sudden I have friends in the church that I never even knew existed. Not that I’ve perfected this either – I’m really really new at this and I’ve already made some mistakes.
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My wife attended Holy Trinity, Indianapolis, on Christmas Eve–huge crowd, SRO. She didn’t even sit down. She knows a woman there who said that even Greek Orthodox have their “C & E” members–many of whom were there that night for the first service in the new church. My wife noted that as those who had prepared for Communion with fasting, etc., were going forward, others who hadn’t prepared were talking, making noise, as they left the service. She did like the worship and appreciates the new facility. She returned to our UMC for later worship.
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Folks:
While I am really happy for everyone to read and post, let me make a suggestion: if you don’t relate to the discussion we’re having….don’t participate. Please. Contribute on posts that do interest you.
thanks
ms
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To each his own. But as for me…I am absolutely desparate to get hold of the real ‘truth’ while the getting is possible. God is REAL. He fellowships with those who SEEK Him. The GOSPEL is His. SALVATION is HIS. The CHURCH is HIS. All creation is HIS. The ‘short work’ He will do in the world is HIS. Why, then…can’t we just ask God what is the right way to worship and serve?
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My family has attended the same evangelical church for 15 years. Five years ago, I was drawn to start worshiping on Friday mornings at an Anglican Church that has recently aligned itself with the Reformed Episcopal Church. I see aspects of both churches that I really like.
In our evangelical church I like the sense of family we have. Most of my friends are at this church, and we’ve watched each other’s children grow up over the years. I like the vigor and joy of the singing (even if the praise band drums are a little loud), and I like the occasional hymns we sing, too. I learn a great deal from the 40-minute sermons, and I really like the change to weekly Communion that occurred this fall. Our Sunday School Classes are challenging and fun as we discuss possible interpretations of different passages of Scripture, and we also pray for each other at the beginning of class.
But the Anglo-Catholic Church I attend on Friday mornings is my true joy. The absence of singing and the emphasis on Scripture, prayer, and Communion takes me deeper and deeper into my faith. Between Morning Prayer and Holy Communion we read five fairly lengthy Scripture passages, OT, NT and Psalms for Morning Prayer, and Epistle and Gospel readings for Holy Communion, besides the fact that the vast majority of the liturgy is straight Scripture. We use the 1928 Book of Common Prayer, and I love the Creeds and the ancient prayers like the “Te Deum Laudamus” and the “Venite.” During our prayer time, we all take turns praying by name for those who are ill and in need. And when my kids and I attend Holy Days services or the very occasional Sunday service, we are welcomed with open arms. The church is very small — about 25 people each Sunday — but it’s a warm, family place with a good balance of younger families and older folks. This little Anglican Church has a prayer blog, a Free Teen Guitar Class outreach, and also served Christmas dinner for the older folks in their community, in addition to heading up ecumenical Thanksgiving and Stations of the Cross services each year. I thoroughly enjoy teaching my children about the church year and am thrilled that there And I’m quite content to take the best of each one for now. My husband isn’t “into” liturgy and prefers the evangelical church as that is what he knows, but he allows me and the kids to attend the Anglican services which I appreciate very much.
So I am living what you wrote about, Michael, with one foot firmly in each tradition, willing to learn and grow in both the evangelical and the mainline traditions.
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…there’s too little patience for those going through the dark nights of the soul, including those with chronic illnesses.
Amen to this. I’d add other kinds of difficulties and losses, like divorce, the death of a spouse (etc.). None of the evangelical/charismatic churches that I’ve attended knew what to do with this stuff, and I doubt things have changed much since I’ve been away from those churches.
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Well said, Chaplain Mike. It’s in the deep waters that contemporary lite fails- and there’s too little patience for those going through the dark nights of the soul, including those with chronic illnesses. But I did get my first grown-up taste of the healing waters in one of those non-traditional churches, and so many other churches I have visited seem -at least initally-so dry in comparison. Though still waters run deep, and there may yet be life there. By the way, the anti-ritual thing is just a pose- we apparently have a deep human hunger for ritual, for it seems that even the most free-wheeling of Pentecostal churches develops its unique ways of being “in the spirit.” And woe unto the poor soul who is unique in a different way.
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Perhaps those who have difficulty with the notion of “ritual” might find it a bit easier to swallow if one speaks of “holy habits”. Just like brushing one’s teeth before going to bed – it may seem dull and repetitive, but it prevents cavities. I’m certain there are deeper, more theological-sounding ways to express the idea, but if developing a habit of doing holy things will help prevent cavities in my soul, then I’m all for it.
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No I live in Texas.
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I’m picking up a theme here that to which I can relate. When I was a pastor in a “Community” church–non-denominational, contemporary, etc. we were known as the “gracious” church in contrast to many of the legalistic and unloving traditional churches in our area. People came to be healed, to taste the Gospel for Christians for the first time, and to get away from the pressure to perform and conform all the time. It was a breath of fresh air to them. However, over the years, I have seen many people leave and go back to their various traditions because there was not enough lasting substance in our a-historical, non-traditional, anti-ritual, lite-theological church. The contemporary evangelical church as I have known it may help people get their feet wet in God’s grace, but it cannot teach them to swim in deep waters.
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Just discovered this site through a friend. Grew up Southern Baptist, married a Lutheran and went to his church during our marriage, but became increasingly cynical and disbelieving. Post divorce: more cynical, but nostalgic for the “fairy tales” I once believed. Started going to a Baptist church out of loneliness – chose that one because the pastor really did seem to be a good shepherd, always down in the trenches where the people were hurting the most. A team came from an English church that had been experiencing a “charismatic renewal” and I heard contemporary worship music for the first time- not as entertainment but as something gentle, loving, contemplative- and it became the music of my heart. The hard, wounded places in my heart began to melt. For 10 years after that, was part of a big (not mega, but wanna-be) church that was contemporary Mennonite/charismatic (but not overly charismaniac)/evangelical/ let’s go out and save the world, starting with our neighbors. Things got a little out of hand with some of the leadership always wanting to be on the “cutting edge” of Christian ministry, and many of us left to find other church homes. Some of my friends were surprised to find happy homes in “mainline” churches; others found churches that seemed to have some of the best of what we missed without the worst of what we didn’t miss. I have to agree with much of the earlier criticism of the contemporary church movements- they can quickly become just as dogmatic and wedded to their own peculiar version of “form over substance”- they just have unique ways of letting you know the acceptable form to be “slain in the spirit” or whatever the theological flavor of the day. But, I have had incredible worship experiences in a multitude of settings, with every conceivable form of music. I’m not talking about “wow that feels good” experiences (though they did) but the times when I was in the presence of God almighty, worshiping at his feet, receptive to His love, healing, correction, instruction, infilling and strengthening. Such experiences have happened in one on one discussions; small groups; mainline churches; charismatic/evangelical churches; gospel concerts of every genre; even alone, just me and my guitar and God. Now, “church” includes Sunday mornings with a small group- many of us “refugees” from the larger group that imploded; a monthly CSLewis society (quite ecumenical); lots of phone calls with a friend who is ill and usually confined to “Bedside Baptist”; impromptu gatherings and e-mail exchanges, with other Christians; and internet communities. And my precious books. Am currently re-reading ‘The Healing Presence” by Leanne Payne. One of her chapter titles I think is pertinent to this discussion: “Imagery and Symbol:”The Symbol Really Matters”‘ I am hungry for both form and substance; symbolism really does matter; but the essential symbols can be expressed in many different forms.
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Piratemonk, since when is the Assembly of God mainstream???
Why ritual? In his book, Letters to Malcolm, C.S. Lewis talks about what he calls the “liturgical fidget,” and talks about how he felt that when things are always changing that it actually distracts from worship. That was definitely my experience toward the end of my stay with the A of G. It was impossible to really worship when I was worried somebody jumping up and down and waiving a flag around might accidently hit me with it, or somebody who decided to be drunk in the spirit did crash into me, or somebody else decided I needed to be slain in the spirit and tried to knock me over…. Lewis also said that he thought he could make use of any form of worship at all – as long as it was always the same. I definitely came to crave that, but I have too many theological differences with the Catholic Church to be Catholic, and the PCUSA, Episcopalians, etc are just too cotton pickin’ liberal for me. It almost seems like some of them take great pride in not believing what the Bible says, and that their religion is purely cultural to them.
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i only moderated part of one post
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Knoxville Guy and iMonk:
I do not mind being taken out to the woodshed. Just remember I came from a tradition that tells you to submit or we’ll kick you out and damn you to hell while we’re at it. So, Knoxville I know exactly how you feel.
Also moderated was my testimony of having been a worship leader in the past. The explanation of what worship leaders do to prepare to lead worship is not appropriate for this thread but it is the reason why I said what I said. I am sorry I can not explain it to you here.
Feel free to email me if you really want to discuss it further at the woodshed. 🙂
DDLDJC@comcast.net
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I haven’t seen a Lutheran or PCA ask me to come to visit since I was 14?
I can’t speak to the PCA side of this, but where I grew up, I think most Lutherans would feel like asking was:
1. Somehow implying that their way of doing things is better than yours
2. Would be too much pressure (a la the way many evangelicals and Pentecostals might force an invitation).
I have no doubt that if someone mentions that they’d like to attend a Lutheran service, a warm invitation would be extended. I think many Lutherans are genuinely surprised when people express a desire to visit. After all, they’ve got a reputation for being old fuddy-duddies. (I can say all this because I was raised Lutheran, and even though I’ve spent many years in other kinds of churches, I still am a Lutheran. “You can take the girl out of the church, but you can’t take the church out of the girl,” I think… ;))
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The short version of my story sounds much like piratemonk’s. Grew up moderately high church Methodist, came to Christ in the Assemblies of God, burned out, and have been in a gradual shift away from that treadmill and back toward something resembling the traditions of my childhood.
The longer version if anyone is interested is here:
Part I
Part II
There are other posts at that site that might go into various details of my struggle.
The bottom line is, I really do love God and long to be close to Him, more focused on Him and what He wants from me and wants to do in me. I want to not just read and learn His word in a theological or academic sense, but to ingest it and meditate on it. And the more I long for this connection and desire to know Him better, the less I feel like I’m able to get there from here in the contemporary evangelical realm I’ve been in the last 20+ years. Hence, my frustration.
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It strikes me reading through these comments, and reflecting on these issues, that perhaps part of the appeal of the “worshiptainment” is that we enjoy new and exciting and interesting things when we we are being entertained, when we are passively “consuming” media and entertainment, but I find that in Divine Service [God serving us- as we Lutherans like to call the worship service], the order of the liturgy is a true aid to worship of Christ, without the constant distraction of wondering what is going to happen next. There is a great benefit to order in worship, and ritual, or liturgy as I prefer to call it, provides the framework or outline for teaching and preaching the Gospel.
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Anna A
“Why ritual?”
Ritual is a memory aid. And since much of the flock for 1000s of years could not read or write the ritual allowed them to learn and understand the story. Most “mainline” churches with stained glass windows have a storyline in the windows. And also in the entire design of the building. To help the congregation learn and remember the Gospel.
Plus most of us are wired to feel comfortable when we know what is going to happen “next”. Ritual in the order of a service makes it a more comfortable place than the “world”.
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As a Recovering Calvary Chapelite…
Wow -That ought to light it up. But I digress.
I was raised in several “mainline” denominational churches as my mother dragged me through various churches.. Lutheran (my baptism), Methodist, Assembly of God, etc, and despite deciding not to go once I could be stubborn enough to convince my Mother the battle wasn’t worth the fight – learned a deep appreciation of God, His Son and a fairly good catechism that laid out the basics. But oh, how the idea of the liturgy seems to a 14yr old and well – in the late 70’s – seemed as relevant as horn rimed glasses and a short white sleeved shirt with a butch hair cut. So I quit the denomination at 14.
At 16 – I “was saved” in a Calvary Chapel – in California – and without the details to bog down, first truly appreciated what it meant to walk with Jesus in a daily connected relationship. I thank Chuck Smith and all that denomination has done for that reason – but, like most Calvary Chapelites, one of two things I think eventually occurs:
1. If they really are honest, there sets in a disillusionment of the whole “we are the on-fire believers” syndrome. Life catches up, sh*t happens and the only answers are “Brother, you just need to read and pray”. Eventually I think after the emotionalism and 5 services a week on the evangelical Harvest Crusade bus you burn out, or lose speed.
2. If you remain in the denomination, you move from Calvary to Calvary, as a safe haven of those that truly believe the right way. The “on-fire” syndrome remains and through you might have burned out long ago you move from church to church looking to reinvigorate or recapture the experience.
Ironically, today at 44, I find myself gravitating toward the traditions of my youth. Longing for substance, wanting the experience of the Holy Supper, thirsty for the liturgy that formed my basic understanding of how I should approach God. I’ve become what imonk calls himself, a “Reformed Christian” and would like truth to reign over experience here.
Enter the dilemma – and Michael – I so agree with you – I want the traditions of my youth back. I’ve visited a Keller PCA church plant in Southern CA, and found it refreshing, and surprisingly relevant. I was hopeful. I haven’t found my way back to a Lutheran church, but may try one. But the dilemma is that would it not be for the thirst and “quickening” of my sprit via God’s – how would I know where to go? Mainline denominations criticize the Calvary types – but at least the idea of outreach remains. I understand the theological underpinnings of how Calvinism plays into the idea of evangelicalism, but wow – I haven’t seen a Lutheran or PCA ask me to come to visit since I was 14? Mom?
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Please tell the stories guys. It would be better than where things seem to be going 🙂
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“I wish I had time right now to tell my story, because the small evangelical Anglican church we moved to from a close-to-mega-evangelical Baptist church did things just right.”
Same here. AMiA church. Big breath of fresh air.
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I have been part of a lot of different churches that used very different models of meeting and find the real problem to be that for the most part no one is listening in any of the various settings.
People seem to have it all figured out on how to “do church”. If you really find a group that affirms your own assumtions or if you don’t really care you can be quite happy, but if you happen to see things differently your choices are really just between the archetecture of the building you sit in while being frustrated on Sunday morning and the age of the stuborn tradition.
What I am really looking for in a church is a continuous “dialogue”; one where we look to each other, history, and scripture to decide how we meet; where correction and adjustments are expected; where we admit that for the most part we are just trying to do our best.
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My apologies…
“All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others.” – George Orwell (1903 – 1950), “Animal Farm”
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Guess what’s growing into a new facility in Indy? Because of evangelicals coming over?
http://www.holytrinityindy.org/ParishInformation/106thandShelborne/Newestbuildingphotos/tabid/736/Default.aspx
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We have two PCUSA churches in our community with a combined attendance of less than 15. Heartbreaking.
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“You’d have to stop acting as if being mainline is a game where you wait to see how fast the membership dies off.”
So true, a First United Methodist church formed 118 years ago in my area just closed its doors. The church’s congregation dwindled down to 25 people, most of which were 70+, and could no longer pay to maintain the building.
http://www.tricityherald.com/kennewick_pasco_richland/story/427380.html
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I hate to have to delete a post to make a point. Let me repeat my point one more time: If all you have to say about this conversation is that everyone wants to be “catered to” please don’t comment.
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Why ritual? (This question/idea has been challenging me most of the morning.)
Part of it is that we are built to enjoy knowing what happens. Just look at how little children enjoy hearing the same story, time after time. And woe be to the parent who tries to change even one word.
In the life of Christians, I think of ritual more as the bones of our faith. And it connects us more easily to other believers. It’s a common foundation, whether it is having 3 readings of the Bible before the sermon or having two hymns and the collection before the homily.
But, we individual Christians, need to use our muscles that are connected to the bones. That is how and where we grow in holiness and toward both God and man.
Either muscle or bone alone is useless to a living person, both are needed to run the good race.
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Which is precisely why I am disenchanted with the Worship-As-Entertainment format so prevalent today.
Way to misunderstand what I was saying, then jumping to crazy assumptions. My point is not that I don’t learn ANYTHING from sermons. It’s that sermons don’t hold a candle to me actively participating in worship through prayer, confession, Communion and so on, especially when I’m rarely hearing anything I haven’t read or heard 100 times before anyway.
Try addressing the actual argument rather than some strawman version of it. And if you’re not sure what I’m getting at, ask some questions before running off at the keyboard and utterly missing the point.
Another problem. I can take 5 different guys and listen to them “exposit” on a passage and end up with 5 different interpretations or points of emphasis that often contradict each other on key portions. Who’s right? Frankly, this is exhausting to me after 20+ years of doing this. Just someone’s opinion? It’s ALL someone’s opinion. One guy is coming from a background at Dallas Theological Seminary, another from Talbot School of Theology, one more from Asbury and finally an entry from Covenant Theological Seminary. There will be much agreement but also much disagreement and it’s all based on the opinions and presuppositions of the architects of the various schools of thought.
That is, unless you can point me to some golden tablets where the Holy Spirit cleared all of this confusion up for us when doing expository teaching.
I don’t know…probably the same difference between singing “Joyful Joyful We Adore Thee” with a nice organ or classical instrumentation versus singing it with kazoos and a xylophone to the tune of the Sesame Street theme. One comes off as majestic and worshipful and the other as something short of that.
Not sure what this has to do with anything I said.
Precisely the problem I’m having with much of contemporary evangelicalism.
And this is exactly why I’m feeling more drawn to traditional styles and Eucharist-oriented worship. Right now, the current trend feels very “me” oriented.
And please explain, with good sources, what “New Testament” church worship looks like according to you.
I detest this sort of presumption.
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Rob, do you live in Corbin,KY or near there? That description reminds me of a large church on a hill as you start down the highway from the first I75 N Corbin
exit. Just wondered…. had an interesting conversation with the music guy last Monday before Christmas. I’m a PT rep for a pipe organ company so I visit a lot of different churches and play for an SBC here in Knoxville.
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I wish I had time right now to tell my story, because the small evangelical Anglican church we moved to from a close-to-mega-evangelical Baptist church did things just right.
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iMonk –
This is to me THE issue of the next 25 years on the Protestant tradition side of things.
The experiment of evangelicalism could end up reviving the mainline churches to the greater good of the whole People of God if … if …
as you say, the mainline churches will allow it to happen AND the Evangelicals come not interested in setting the agenda based upon their past experience.
Boy I pray for something like this.
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“Why do people care if a sect or denomination dies off?”
The denomination I was raised in still calls itself Southern Baptist, but it is no longer recognizable as the church it was 25 years ago. Why do I care? Because it means that either we had it tragically wrong and have just now gotten it right, or we had it right and are now getting it wrong.
The issue is simple, at least for me. Truth doesn’t change, God doesn’t change, yet my denomination has done nothing but change… change… change… in all directions all at once. At what point are we going to get it right? How could we possibly know if we did?
I’m willing to concede that the faith I was raised with was false, but there is no indication that the new faith and practices are in any way superior.
I spent 20 years not paying any attention to what the evangelical world was up to. When I recently took a good hard look, I was shocked to see how much it has changed, how fast it changed, and that it is people of my generation who seem primarily responsible for this. “What the hell happened?” sums up my reaction.
So, the death of a denomination’s distinctives indicates that either it didn’t have the truth to begin with, or it is now running off the rails. Saying that God “used” them is of no comfort when faced with the fact that either I was lied to my entire childhood, or the denomination I loved has replaced right worship and right doctrine for fads and Wal*Mart Jesus.
Truth doesn’t change. Yet my denomination isn’t just changing, it’s morphing into something unrecognizable — and no, you can’t say that it still holds to the “essentials” when it can’t even make up its mind what the “essentials” even are.
The church is the pillar and foundation of truth. That means that *I* am not. The *church* is, and a church that can’t define, explain, or hold to what it believes is incapable of preserving the gospel. The best it can hope for is an incomplete faith, and I have serious doubts that an incomplete faith is a saving faith.
So yeah, the demise of a church bothers me. If a church teaches the entire gospel as once delivered, the gates of hell would not prevail against it — the church’s doctrine and worship would withstand anything, including Rod Parsley. Yet my old church’s doctrine and worship are flailing all over the place with no indication of ever landing on anything solid.
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Ah, thanks for that, Michael. Sounds like there is indeed a lot more involved than for the music minister (which was the closest I could think of on this side).
What is involved sounds to me like the functions of an acolyte or especially a deacon, so why the emphasis on the music over the prayers/scriptural readings? Of course, please understand I’m talking from a perspective here of (1) small-town Ireland rather than America (2) Roman Catholic and (3) like the Dara Ó Briain joke about how you can tell the Protestants from the Catholics when attending a wedding for a mixed marriage – when it comes to the hymns, the Protestants know *all* the verses, *and* they sing them! 🙂
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I am always amused by the people who say we should worship as the early Christians did. Rarely do they go to the trouble of learning what that means.
It’s not hard to find out. Read the Didache, read Justin Martyr’s Apology, read Irenaeus. All describe first and second-century Christian worship in some detail. You will find it does not even remotely resemble what is done in most Evangelical churches today.
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One of the churches bought the moving lights that throw different color light designs on the walls and can even be set to move in time with the music or at different points in the music and was used in Sunday morning services not just special ones. — Guy from Knoxville
I read that and the first words that came to mind were “Disco or Techno?”
The second was “Ravers for Christ” (dook dook dook DOOK dook dook dook DOOK)…
…and Communion… what’s that?… — Guy from Knoxville
Ecstasy for the Rave?
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Let me say that, for me, the issue really isn’t about “high worship” at all. I respect many different forms of worship and have participated in all types of services that were truly worshipful because they were centered around the Gospel, filled with meaningful participation by the congregation, and respectful of both tradition and the newness that the Spirit brings. Contemporary evangelicalism’s problem when it comes to worship is not just about style, it is about substance.
It is also about elevating program above people. I would much rather meet with the small Baptist congregation in Vermont where I started my ministry, where there was truly a sense of community and neighborliness and God’s involvement in day to day life and relationships than I would with any suburban megachurch where the whole concept is about meeting the consumers’ desires through the latest and best programs and methods.
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“Being a former RC, I will never go back to repetitive prayer, stand up, sit down, recite, stand up, kneel down, recite.”
I not a former or current RC but when I ask those who are and they can’t tell me WHY they do these things I want to ask why attend? But since these are in-laws I mostly hold my thoughts to myself.
I also know folks who get excited about this style of worship. But they seem to be a minority.
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The worship leader in evangelicalism is the person who plans and leads the musical aspect of the worship service. — IMonk
Which leads into “Music = Worship?”, which IMonk has commented on at length. (Especially that bubblegum “Jesus Is My Boyfriend” music — you think “Gather Us In” is a lightweight…)
My church (RCC) has something similar, but we call them “Cantors” after Jewish practice. They lead the choir and congregation from a lectern on the other side of the Sanctuary from the main ambo.
I’m not familiar with the Evangelical practice, but is the Worship Leader (TM) most often male or female? From what I’ve heard of Praise Choruses (TM) here and elsewhere, I have this mental image of a fortysomething Delta Dawn or Bella from Twilight gushing about her Perfect Boyfriend in 7 words repeated 24 times.
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Michael, you’ve definitely struck a chord that is resonating with a lot of converts from Evangelicalism to Lutheranism. My Facebook page, where I posted a link to my blog site, and my blog post, are getting comments at a pace more quickly than usual.
The angst expressed is deeply moving and it is obvious that the “moment” is there but there is a good deal of ambivalence about how to take advantage of it, and frustration by those who are missing it, in one way or the other, or from one side of “the aisle” or the other.
Fascinating and important conversation.
Personally, I’m holding out for the high-def DTS 7.1 xBox version of the Church. When they come out with that, I’ll become a better Christian.
; )
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Wiloh: Why are you commenting on this thread?
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Church isn’t about you and what makes you feel good. I listen to 10 to 20 sermons a week and learn something from all most all of them. The Spirit quickens the dead parts of the soul. A sermon should be a bible study and life application. Hearing some one say they can learn nothing from a sermon is like hearing some one say they can learn nothing from a study of Scripture. If your sermon is not an exposition of the Word it is just some guy’s opinion and you shouldn’t be listening anyway.
What is the difference between McCommunion and wafers? A grain of rice has been used, it worked.
Go to church to find a shared ministry.
Look in the seat next to you, there is a ministry seated there.
If you don’t have the peace of the Holy Spirit where you are, go some where else, start a new work, or just ask god for Guidance.
Why don’t people know the difference from a concert and Worship?
I feel so sorry for so many of you, but church is not about YOU! The less your church looks like the New Test. the less happy you will be.
where 2 or more are gathered, it is a promise that He will never break. Not my words, Imonk. but His, He gave us one mind and one Spirit.
If you are not going to church to be in one mind and one spirit, don’t go! Why bring the spirit of disunity into the Body? If you want to jump around, find jumpers, if you want to kneel and pray find kneelers, and if you are moody like me kneel with the kneelers and jump with the jumpers but do not complain about one to the other.
God is merciful in his variety, but you know how he feels about mumblers in the camp.
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Knoxville Guy: I edited that comment from Boethius when it appeared. Not appropriate in this forum.
Love what you have to say.
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Michael, this is one of your great posts (all are for that matter – this one stands out) and I read the first one and connected with it and that’s the case with this one too. Thanks much – you’re spot on and having been raised in and attended/served in two SBC churches here in Knoxville I can really identify here. BTW this is not unique to SBC churches – it’s my background so that’s why the reference. Believe me there are plenty of other examples of this mess other than SBC churches and not all of them have these issues – a great many do.
All that having been said I have this to say on Worshiptainment…. absolutely a perfect discription of much of what’s happening in these places. Being an organist and involved in music and assisting with worship planning to some degree I can say that what I see and have seen and experienced is just that – nothing more than entertainment for the most part. One of the churches bought the moving lights that throw different color light designs on the walls and can even be set to move in time with the music or at different points in the music and was used in Sunday morning services not just special ones. Folks I crave a church that actually knows something of worship and has reverance and respect when we come into the the presence of God – my two experiences, at least in recent years, have been sorely lacking and Communion… what’s that?… I know what it is but these two churches have it so very little I wonder if they have any concept and the typical excuse is that having it too often takes away from the meaning – not so! If anything it keeps before us what we’ve too often forgotten – we need to be reminded and confronted regularly just what it cost for our salvation.
While I’m at it (Michael, my apologies but I’m about to take Boethius to the “woodshed” on an issue so if you moderate it or delete it I’m fine with it – the post is already a bit long…) Boethius, quite honestly I’m sick of hearing others being told and myself being told “if I don’t like it please don’t go” which is the same as being told – and I’ve been told and heard it preached from the pulpit – if you don’t like it get out and don’t let the door hit you on the way out! Sir, do you have any idea how many good, godly folks that simply voiced a legitimate concern or asked a legitimate question without anger or mean-spiritedness regarding this junk that passes for worship have been told those words and, in some cases, been thrown out of churches that they have come to Christ in, attended and supported and never caused one ounce of trouble in? When I hear things like that it simply burns me up that this is what evangelical churches have come to. I would submit that you need to quit telling people to get out and start actually listening to what some of them have to say – you might just learn something and if that’s an issue maybe you need to consider doing what you tell these folk.
Yes, I want the liturgy, I want communion, I want God given the reverence, respect and praise that he deserves, I want the gospel preached clearly and without compromise, I want the great hymns and sacred music – on the list could go and sadly we don’t get it anymore in evangelical churches for the most part. Michael hit it on the head too on the regarding the tolerance of morals that are less than godly and certainly not biblical – that is the one issue that keeps me from considering a mainline church over an evangelical one at this point. They (mainlines) have all the other things I want in worship but I can’t deal with the compromise on issues that are so clear in scripure. I could easily go… well run… to any number of mainlines here in town but for this issue.
Mainlines, the opportunity is yours…. will you take it and meet us at least halfway??? We’re ready… I’m ready.
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I think I’m going Lutheran. Hopefully I can find a conservative one to attend, and they will tolerate a Calvinist Covenentalist.
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“If riding a motorcycle in one week wows ‘em, what do we do the next: have a helicopter land outside with the apostles on board to burst into worship … ?”
Once when I was around the 3rd grade we were on our way to visit my aunt’s church. Which we really never did. I asked my dad why on the ride there and he said “to see the white elephant”. Then he told me to be quite and he would explain later. It took me a few years to understand the entire situation. 🙂
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Rob — reminds me of a conversation I had a few years back with an EO convert who used to be an evangelical worship leader or whatever. He told me he realized that his religion had become all about getting attention for himself, so he started a rock band instead.
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Boethius – Thanks for your explanation – I understand what you were getting at – my caution (and yes, I meant Unitarian as Non-Christian), was the trend where discontentment mixed with a good dose of disillusionment percolates to cook up the emergent type, “find your own experience of God” movement. It moves so far away from the Gospel that it really no longer needs the Gospel. And in that – sarcastically I meant Unitarian…
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Am I correct that there is hostility toward high church worship among many in the PCA? My son attends a large PCA and the Christian year is anathema. Too Catholic.- IMonk
This is true. I am PCA down here in the bible belt. We say the apostle’s creed, pray the Lord’s Prayer corporately, sing the Gloria Patri, have a few scripture readings.
However, the readings are usually arbitraily selected to buttress the pastor’s sermon, and not from a lectionary. It seems liturgical from the outside but is still a largely “lecture-hall” atmosphere. We never have a reading from the Gospels which bothers me. We have topical sermons come Easter or Christmas, but otherwise its straight expository style chapter by chaper all year with no recognition of the season.
And most of the people have no knowledge of the Christian year. The closest we came to even embracing the season of Advent was the advent candle displayed and lighted each of the 4 sunday mornings preceding…. right NEXT to the huge christmas tree the women in the church insist upon. Nevermind that we read no advent readings (Man I wish we would just embrace the 1928 book of common prayer). Most of our people, who are older and were even more “low church” in the past, would have no idea what the Christian year is.
What compounds the problem is a lot of the PCA, which I would consider more evangelical than mainline, is trying to be more “hip” and even though they aren’t nearly as extreme as “seeker” churches are- they are doing more blended worship, dropping creeds and corporate prayer, etc.
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Ten years ago, Michael, I was one of the people you were talking about. After growing up in the Episcopal Church, I gave my life to Christ when I was 17 in an Assemblies of God-affiliated college campus group. After over a decade in Pentecostalism, I found that I was hungering, partly for something different, partly for something more, and ended up returning for several years to Episcopalianism. (Thankfully, I was in the Diocese of San Joaquin, CA, now one of the dioceses breaking away from the EC because they still believe the Bible is God’s Word, etc.) I even got married in the Episcopal Church during that span.
There was one problem. It took me a while to realize it, but I had traded a habit-bound repetitive, semi-mindless, Spirit-restricting 30-year-old tradition for a habit-bound, repetitive, semi-mindless, even MORE Spirit-restricting 400-year-old tradition. This was not the winning formula you might think.
I appreciate the traditional church’s respect for beauty in art, music and architecture, their commitment to time-honored “crafted prayers,” their emphasis on the Eucharist — all sorely lacking in modern-style congregations. I can understand why people would leave evangelical congregations to return to someplace that … well, feels more like church and less like a Pearl Jam concert. I understand it because I’ve lived it. But at bottom, I found that traditional congregations, even those who still have some commitment to the Bible (a rarer and rarer breed these days), have the same problem as the evangelical ones — too many man-made systems imposed between man and God, restricting access for both. If one’s desire is to have a closer relationship with the living God, fleeing from a denomination established in 1971 or 1914 to one established in 1534 or earlier is unlikely to help. Not impossible. But unlikely.
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Oh, this has been a fun read. I was raised 70/30 Catholic/Episcopalian (my mother’s and father’s respective heritages). When I was in 7th Grade, my dad was often out to sea and my mom got tired of the Christless preaching of the new base chaplain. So we started our trek in Evangelicalism. Initially this took the form of a charismatic non-denom mega but eventually ended up in Messianic Judaism. Between burning out as a deacon/worship leader and seeing too many of my friends and family abandon Christ in favor of traditional Judaism, I found myself exploring my Catholic and Episcopalian roots in addition to some of the local Evangelical options. I gotta tell ya, I’m REALLY drawn to the traditions of my childhood. And mostly that boils down to Gospel-centered liturgy, serious Eucharist, and short-yet-often-profound sermons.
Depending on how the dust settles from the inevitible split (or at least splinter) of American Episcopalianism I’ll probably end up either in the Episcopal Church or another Anglican-ish offshoot. Unless I meet and marry a Catholic girl. While the disagreements I have with RCC doctrine would keep me as an individual from converting, I could live with them for the sake of my hypothetical family. My last girlfriend was Catholic and some of my favorite memories of our relationship were going to Mass with her family.
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I think that’s the toughest thing right now when trying to explain to friends and relatives why getting involved in a Sunday School class, a small group or finding a mentor isn’t going to help with what I’m going through with regard to the contemporary evangelical church model. Those things are great in various ways, depending on what one really needs: instruction, fellowship, accountability and so on. But if what you’re looking for and needing doesn’t hit on those things, diving further into such activities isn’t going to be all that fulfilling.
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>Frankly, I’m to the point where there isn’t that much a pastor/teacher is going to be able to say that I haven’t heard 100 times already.
Ahhhh…the dirty little secret. Blog post coming on that very topic!
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I remember when those things came out. I worked in a Christian bookstore at the time. I called it McCommunion.
Talk about choking the beauty and reverence out of something.
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I will go further and say that the participatory nature of a Catholic Mass or an Anglican or Lutheran worship service is far more likely to engage me in seeking God and wanting to be more like Christ than merely sitting and listening to a 40 minute sermon once the worship music is done.
Frankly, I’m to the point where there isn’t that much a pastor/teacher is going to be able to say that I haven’t heard 100 times already. I’d much rather have more of the service oriented toward actively rather than passively worshiping God through prayers, reaffirmation of beliefs, confession, receiving Holy Communion, kneeling and so on that getting to be active for 15-30 minutes worth of singing in the beginning, then sitting and watching/listening the rest of the time.
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PS
I always wonder in these praise bands with the very hip singers out front who is getting the praise and worship.
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I recently attended the first of three services on Christmas Eve with my daughter at burgeoning mega-church where she and her husband are members.
The smokin’ hot band (and they really were smokin’hot) started in on the familiar opening of “Oye Como Va”. Two young women came out and began belting out the words to “God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen” to this music. The band and singers were very good but I knew I was in for it having suffered through services at the faux Baptist church now nationally recognized mega where I once attended and my extended family still attends.
Soon the pastors, a 50ish couple, came out and began a tag team sermon on how Mary was ready for God to work through her and obedient etc. He was dressed in his new black shirt with a huger rhinestone cross on the back. Very cool.
Communion was taken out of little packages that looked like jelly containers in a breakfast joint.
At the end an invitation of sorts was extended without any clear explanation of what this really meant. This is more than happens at the mega of my youth anymore.
Here’s the stunner.
The has an appropriately cool name with the small print:
A United Methodist Ministry.
My stalwart, hard line Methodist grandfather is spinning in his grave.
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At most contemporary megas, we stand until I and other people over 50 are forced to sit out of sheer exhaustion.
Don’t get me started on the unspoken liturgy of most evangelicals.
Those who value physical participation in worship are doing what the body was created to do: honor God. Is it good when evangelicals raise hands, and bad when Catholics kneel? Is there a chart for this?
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I don’t quite understand why this aspect of RC would be the thing you can’t tolerate. Do you think contemporary evangelical churches don’t have their same little customs and such? Standing to read the Word, “everyone lift their hands and worship the Lord”, instructions to stand up and greet your neighbor by saying “I’m glad to be in the house of the Lord today”, altar calls, the same order of service (start with upbeat songs, transition to slow “worshipful” ones, end with a prayer)…I could go on and on. Why would reciting certain prayers or kneeling and standing at certain times be such a big deal?
And I find that reciting the creeds, kneeling and praying a prayer of confession, saying the Lord’s Prayer, singing the Sanctus or various litanies helps me focus on Christ which in turn makes me want to be holier and more Christlike. Why would one throw the baby out with the bathwater with regard to ancient traditions?
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Ritual doesn’t effect a deeper walk for many people. They should go and find whatever their journey calls for.
But many of us do find some ritual meaningful, for the same reasons God gave passover and Jesus turned it into the Lord’s Supper.
No one here is saying one size fits all. My entire post says “many” not “all.”
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Jim Thornber,
I understand. I belong to an AoG church. I LOVE the people there and value my time with them. The AoG however, is terrible on theology. I can’t count the times I’ve had to bite my tongue during Bible Study to not openly contradict the pastor.
To everyone else including imonk. Why is it that more rituals and reciiations is “deeper” than the standard evangelical worship service? What is it about “worship by numbers” (doing exactly the same thing, at the same time, the same way every week) that means it’s more substansial?
No offense meant, but I don’t understand the concept that ritual reflects a deeper walk. I also don’t understand the way of thinking that says that repitition in this sense is good but repeating a “modern” praise song is just worshiptainment.
Most of the Liturgical churches I have been too (I was raised a C&E Episcopailian) seem to have replaced actual relationship with ritual. How is this any better than stripping away ALL tradition?
DD
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Mark T: Am I correct that there is hostility toward high church worship among many in the PCA? My son attends a large PCA and the Christian year is anathema. Too Catholic.
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Great post.
There is third way, however: evangelical (non-mainline) churches that are rediscovering/embracing liturgy and church tradition. An example here in Philly is City Church, a PCA church that practices a full liturgy (incl. Scripture lessons from OT, NT & Gospels; confession and proclamation of forgiveness; creeds; Lord’s Prayer; and the Lord’s Supper every Sunday). The music is traditional hymns with jazz accompaniment, which seems to serve as a nice meeting place between those used to traditional hymns and those coming out of praise chorus churches.
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Thanks for reposting this which, as a UM, I very much appreciated the first time and shared it with leaders in our congregation. I would like for this to be truer than I see it here in suburbia where I serve. The appeal of 3 area mega churches remains strong. Yet I have talked with some people who are looking for more. I have no “program,” “magic formula,” or whatever to bring to the congregation. I attempt to call people to follow Jesus, grow in their walk with him, and serve others. Our worship is pretty traditional in 2 services, somewhat blended in one, and more modern/contemporary in another. I’m not sure that that makes much difference as long as we preach Christ, celebrate God’s goodness, and follow the
Spirit. Worship can indeed happen in a traditional setting, even with seemingly rote components. For example, we pray the Lord’s Prayer at 3 services in a row. That affects me differently in each of the services every week, as it does daily when I pray it.
I wonder also about perserverance. A lot of what happens in some megas (not all) seems to be hype to me. The ante keeps getting raised higher. If riding a motorcycle in one week wows ’em, what do we do the next: have a helicopter land outside with the apostles on board to burst into worship [anyone is free to use that one :)]? The RC and EO keep at worship as they have done it for centuries, not bowing to every fad. I know the issues there, as well as in mainline and megas. But at some point, it seems to me, that we decide to persevere and worship and serve God where we are, realizing that no church is perfect or ever will be. Our call is to be faithful. I find that opportunity as pastor of a mainline congregation with at least some history and tradtion that I don’t find a burden, but a means to grow closer to God. I do agree with Michael Bell that mainline churches need to be much more welcoming. Having greeters at the entrances really is pretty superficial most of the time. People in all congregations need to reach out to welcome new people. As we all know, there are less and less people in any church these days, and therein lies the challenge for all of us: how to reach them and call them to follow Jesus.
Happy New Year!
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The worship leader in evangelicalism is the person who plans and leads the musical aspect of the worship service.
They may direct musicians or singers, but increasingly they lead the band/worship team from the piano or by playing guitar. They interact with and lead the congregation in singing, prayer, scripture reading, exhortation, etc.
There are many excellent contemporary worship leaders, such as Bob kauflin.
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I don’t know if this question is throwing the cat amongst the pigeons, but as an Interested Though Ignorant Outsider, what is a worship leader?
How does that fit into the service? How is it different from a choirmaster or organist?
I sincerely would like to know, because the first image that phrase conjures up in my mind is the lady of a certain age in the front pew leading the recitation of the Rosary before Mass starts on a weekday morning – and I kinda think that’s not what you guys mean 🙂
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iMonk:
I think willoh just meant “where ever two or more are gathered.” Willoh: correct me if I am wrong.
Fellowshipping with the few people who even want to discuss the things I like to discuss does not necessarily, though it does not rule out, worship.
I worship with people with whom I disagree on a weekly basis at the Vineyard church I am currently a member of.
Treebeard: I envy the contented people too. ‘sigh’
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>…Where ever Boethius finds like minded people to worship with him, there shall God be present.
In what possible sense could this be true? How does like mindset determine God’s reality?
And for those who don’t know, the Unitarians aren’t mainlines. They aren’t Christians.
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People often ask me why, as an Assemblies of
God minister, I would join a Catholic-based monastic community and become a monk. One of the reasons is I couldn’t find the depth of theology and spirituality in my own (Pentecostal/Protestant) tradition. I read “Celebration of Discipline” by Richard Foster and if rocked my boat. “Worshiptainment.” Don’t get me started. Thanks for the post.
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Where ever Boethius finds like minded people to worship with him, there shall God be present. Why do people care if a sect or denomination dies off? If the only thing constant is God. Does it matter that the Puritans, Hussites, etc. are no longer with us? They were used by God and now they are gone. Do we really expect the SBC to meet Christ on His return should He linger? I think it ridiculous. And would He recognize a church that had become inbred for ages? To keep fresh perhaps the Bride must have a little revolution to keep true. What you are calling the main line seems a dinosaur to me. As institutions live too long they add the doctrine of men and use tradition as if it were the Word of God. Trust in the Spirit to keep true Worship alive. Praise God for the changes taking place. We all know that in the latter days there will be more ear tickling than worship. Let not your hearts be troubled. He does not fail His own.
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I can’t say I classify as an evangelical, but certainly a Protestant with anabaptist/mennonite leanings. And I absolutely understand what is going on here. I am appalled at my own traditions lack of tradition, lack of liturgy, lack of weighty-ness. It is airy and fluffy, unable to be grasped, including the barely theological ideas that run around there.
Nor can I say I fit the mainline orthodoxy at all. But, I certainly did enjoy their liturgy this past Sunday. I enjoy the seriousness with which they take membership and their task as the church. And I did enjoy one unique part, that I’ve never seen anywhere else; a trip down to the bar with friends and priests.
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Boethius: “I have a desire to know. etc.”
Ditto. Yes, yes, yes.
Sometimes, I honestly envy the people who are content with their Christian group, faith, and tradition. They can relax, and they don’t seem to struggle. I know many genuinely decent Christians who simply are where they are, and it’s good enough for them. And maybe that’s commendable. The Lord might say, “They have found Me, and they are where I want them.”
But with such people, I just don’t see much impact. It just doesn’t go that deep. (Maybe I’m very wrong, but that’s my impression.) When I read the apostle Paul, he was always struggling and striving, i.e. “pressing forward to the things that are before.” He was pursuing, never resting, never content, endeavoring to know Christ to the uttermost heights and depths. Is that only the portion of an apostle, or are we not supposed to follow him, as he followed Christ? (“Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ Jesus.”)
I fear that every Christian group I ever “try” throughout my life will be a let down. And I’ll become one of those wandering and peculiar Christians who are never at home anywhere. I don’t want to be self-absorbed or individualistic. I want to truly know Him, and I realize that knowing Him should be in the context of the church which is His Body. But WHERE IS IT?
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I have been searching for a fuller evangelical response to Newman’s Development of Doctrine. It is the one book I have put off reading until just a year or so again. I have always heard how powerful it is and determinative. Maybe here at iMonk????? Yeh, I know this post is about mainline, but this book bears a relation on the whole of the discussion.
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Piratemonk:
“Unitarian gathering place of the emergent”:::: What if you do end up there as a part of your search? Then, you need to ask yourself when you are there; what am I here for?
A couple of years ago, at Christmas dinner, my uncle, who had recently been fired from his job in manufacturing production (he is in his late 60s), announces that he is considering becoming a minister. My mouth fell open in complete surprise and I could tell that he was offended by my reaction. He said, “You do not think I could be a minister?” I wish I had been able to contain my surprise. My reaction was in body language only but it was obvious I did not see him being a minister. My uncle had never, in the years of my lifetime ever mentioned Jesus, Christianity, the Bible, anything. He would sometimes come to Mass (I was raised RC) with my family, you know, at Easter and Christmas time, but he never expressed any interest other than accompanying my aunt and our family. He once shared that he had been baptized in the Baptist church at the age of 16 but never mentioned it again. My family discussed the goings-on at church openly when he was around. He listened respectfully to our conversations but never added to them.
So, now I was on the hook. I had to tell him the thoughts I had which caused my jaw-dropping response to his announcement. Cautiously, I said, “I know you were baptized in a Baptist church but I just can not picture you becoming a Baptist minister.” He said he was not considering joining the Baptists. This prompted me to ask which denomination he was considering. He then announced that he wanted to join the Unitarians. Maybe I was wrong, but I encouraged him; telling him, there was a place I could easily see him performing that role.
Now, I tell you this story in order to make this one point. Of all the people sitting around that Christmas dinner table; my spouse, children and I were the only ones who understood the exchange and what it meant. My parents, siblings, their spouses, my aunt (this was her spouse making the announcement), grandparents; not a single one of them understood any of the background knowledge the exchange implied. The RCs around the table only knew what RC meant and even in that, their knowledge of the faith they had been raised in was limited. They do not even desire to know more of their own faith or Unitarianism or anything else for that matter. They are people, who are content in their relationship with God, each other, and their church community as they know it; on the level that they know it. Now, I do not have a problem with that however, it was not enough for me.
I have a desire to know. I want to understand church history, theology, philosophy, and the Scriptures. I want to read the thoughts of those who have gone before me, no matter what their denomination was. I have had, several times in my life, formed friendships with like-minded people. I treasure those discussions, that fellowship time. Those relationships can be counted on one hand. I understand that not all people want to discuss these things. They think it is a total waste of time and they are content to go with the teachings of whatever denomination they find themselves in. So be it.
For those who are content with where they are at; God bless you. For those who are not; God bless you as you search to know more.
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Wow, thanks for this post. I wish I could say, with great confidence, Michael, that “we” are well aware of the “moment” and are making the most of every opportunity to share the Gospel treasures from our traditions with our brothers and sisters in the Evangelical community, but….what brings me nearly to despair is the degree to which we seem to be passing each other on the highway. Many of “us” are embracing the very things that you and others are finding so distressing about life in the Evangelical churches.
Thanks for the word of encouragement!!!
This is going up on my blog site today.
God bless.
Paul McCain
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I led worship for several years and while I know I was sincere in it for my part I cannot help but agree that it is just entertainment. I found it harder and harder to find songs that were not cheezy, and even resorted to singing Bruce Cockburn once just to get some more meaningful words than calling Jesus a lover.
I returned to the catholic church with all it’s trappings which I did once ridicule, and now find to be refreshing and much more deep than the shallowness of my evangelical experience. The problem I would say with “mainline” churches is that they are called “mainline churches”. I think that when a person reaches out from an older tradition which the newer sects have spent time stereotyping, and complaing about creeds and liturgy, all the person sees is “old” or “traditional” without ever realizing that something old can still be new….(pilgrims regress) they just get that sour look on their face and stamp it as tradition (of men) and hope that the next worship song will have a jammin guitar solo so they can feel excited about Jesus again. (that is criticism from an ex worship leader who was ready to pull his hair out because no amount of prayer, practice and thought matters to the audience who just want to climax at worship.)
Anyway the best way to get people interested in the older mainline churches is to stop calling them mainline churches, and find a way to get past the stereotypes that they were fed to keep them in whatever sect they happen to be in.
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Michael, thank you so much for this post. I have linked to it on my blog. I am about to start a series of posts on my own return to the mainline and am encouraging everyone to read your post as the place to start.
Boethius: I see where you are coming from. I’ve been there myself…for a long time. After 30 years of dissatisfaction, I could not disagree with you more.
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I’ve been wrestling with this myself. I tried an evangelical megachurch, and finally realized that I couldn’t go that direction. Too much extra stuff, too much worshiptainment (copyright that word, Mike). I have visited mainline denominations, and they appear old and dead, without even a hint of the gospel. I can’t go to Catholicism or Othodoxy, because I can’t handle all the traditions that have been added to the Bible. Yet I can’t return to the exclusive sect that I left, which boasted of having no traditions, and yet was controlling and suffocating.
But I don’t believe the “narrow way” means me, myself, and I, surfing on the Internet in search of the likeminded.
So what am I (and what are we) supposed to do? I read the Bible somewhat regularly, endeavor to have a prayer life, and watch some of the better Christian teachers on TV (Charles Stanley is a favorite). But I have no community around me. Occasionally I bump into Christians, and have wonderful fellowship. But there is nothing consistent. I have two young children, and I want them to be raised as Christians with a sense of community. But I don’t want them to belong to “___” group. I just want them to love the Lord and love His people.
Sigh. No answers, many questions. At the very least, there are websites and blogs like this one that tell me I am not alone.
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The liturgical falls short when the formula is substituted for the Spirit – the non-liturgical falls short when the leader’s personal whim is mistaken for the Spirit. I have seen both of those things happen.
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“All we like sheep have set out on our individual journeys”… I think it was C. S. Lewis who described his feelings regarding the phrase “Man’s search for God” as being akin to “the mouse’s search for the cat”. Passing through the strait gate and walking along the narrow way won’t leave much wiggle room, but there will always be enough space for two or three to walk arm in arm for strength and support. “Worshiptainment” – a brilliant portmanteau word. Having grown up through the Jesus Freak days fo the ’60s and early ’70s, I once thought it was great that the music in church had finally started to “speak my language” – not realizing that in truth the music in church was supposed to help my heart, in unity with the hearts of my brethren (and sistren), learn how to speak God’s language.
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Boethius….Yeah, um…Searching. So – what if our searching leads us to the Netherlands of the Unitarian gathering place of the emergent, where those disenfranchised, disheartened and disillusioned with whatever they thought their experience was supposed to look like didn’t. Where the topic is how everything sucked before they got to, um – well where ever they were now, you know… just – not whet they were..?
Can you clarify “searching out sources for different things” for me?
I get worried when we all set out on “our individual journey”. I never see Christ telling us that, rather He described a narrow path. I am not so simple minded to say here that I can lay that out, and no doubt we all have our personal bent to be shaped into Jesus Shaped, but to say the Christian life is about a “personal journey” worries me when it is framed by this kind of discussion…
imho..
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[Mod edited]
Being a former RC, I will never go back to repetitive prayer, stand up, sit down, recite, stand up, kneel down, recite. It is not for me, no way, no how, no more.
I want to be holier. I want to be more Christlike. I want to focus more on Him in the limited amount of time I have to learn and relate to Him on this side of the grave. I will participate in those traditions and/or innovations which assist me in doing that. No church can or will participate in all the different things I find helpful in my journey. I have absolutely no problem searching out different sources for different things.
Happy searching everyone.
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The Lutherans, at least in my neck of the woods, have been really striving to reach out. Issues Etc.
Pirate Christian Radio,(and the multitude of programs and podcasts there) Wittenberg Trail, New Reformation Press, and the legion of Lutheran bloggers and commenters, have been putting our message and theology out there. There are an increasing number of young pastors who see this opportunity and are attempting to make the most of it. Granted, there is still more to do, and we have our problems. That being said, from your point of view, what specific things do you think the Lutherans could do to more effectively share what we have with those who are searching or who are becoming disaffected from Evangelicalism? What does ‘meeting you halfway’ look like when you are speaking to and about Lutherans?
On another note entirely- worshiptainment? Simply brilliant!
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After spending 30 years in evangelical, “free form” churches, I’m drifting back to my liturgical roots. Even a good evangelical church – which I’m also attending with my family – lacks elements such as the recitation of the creeds, the Lord’s Prayer, and the public confession and affirmation of forgiveness that the Lutheran and Episcopal churches include.
I disagree with you, though, that these churches somehow have to change; and what do you mean, “come back to the center of evangelicalism?” That seems a bit presumptuous to me.
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One of the sweetest moments of my life was realizing that those who sit in pews and sing from hymnals – those I had hurriedly dismissed in my emotionalism – can love Jesus too, and often have a clearer picture of the Gospel than me.
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We tried a mainline church near our home when our previous church closed. The pastor was a breath of fresh air, traditional with an evangelical bent as well. We sent there for almost two months, and had almost no-one make us feel welcome. Others who visited felt the same way, even on a Sunday when the Pastor spoke on “Welcoming Visitors.” So we moved on to a more evangelical church, quite a bit further away.
One of the positive things about being “seeker-sensitive”, or “seeker-friendly”, is that it makes you attuned to those who are coming in through the front door of your church, Christian and non-Christian. It is a mindset that will be very difficult for more traditional churches to adopt.
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As long as you can find one or two people to worship with, God will be there. In my neck of the woods the tide is flowing in the opposite direction of what you describe. The Scranton diocese is predicting closure of at least 30 more churches. Many of the mainline worship halls, built when coal was king and money plentiful, and then added to at the turn of the century [20th] for the Sunday School craze are ghost towns. Some, the ones with exceptional staff, are hanging on or growing, but honestly, it is the smaller, I guess you would have to say evangelical, works that are growing. We even have a mini mega church in the works. Catholic Charismatic is seeing an upsurge.
The largest growing church group is “un”.
I know my part of pennsyltucky is in a bit of a time warp, but that is how it is right now.
My hope is that as we age we will long to sing “precious Lord” “old rugged cross” etc. I don’t want to be 65 singing “Our love is Loud”, of course I am 53 and not singing that now.
I have great faith in the Holy Spirit leading the faithful few in a God honoring worship style that will bring them closer to the Savior. Any worship worth the name is lead by Him. Always was, World without end, Amen.
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beautifully said –
As a young evangelical myself, you’ve nailed the desire of my heart in what I’m looking for in the church. And I’m still looking … thanks for making the appeal.
And I cannot believe that this is the first time that I’ve heard the word “worshiptainment” before. Going to have to start making use of that term at church.
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