It seems so familiar…..a young pastor winds up with an incredibly successful megachurch. We hear all the good stories. Then the media picks up the scent of some of the stories most of us didn’t hear. True? False? Don’t make too quick a judgement because these things can surprise you, but unfortunately, there is a familiar pattern.
Success = doing stupid things and saying stupid things to those who disagree with you.
Yes, there is a tendency to think that the successful church is God’s cause, so anyone who becomes a critic, becomes an enemy. A sinner. One to be shunned.
Enter the New York Times profile of Mark Driscoll and his Mars Hill Church success story.
It’s a big article, and it will take some time to read it. You’ll learn a lot. I’ve read and listened to a lot of Driscoll the past few years. I’ve defended him from the watchblogging idiots and I’ve criticized him for his gender obsession. It all sounds like Pastor Mark to me.
And then we get to this:
In 2007, two elders protested a plan to reorganize the church that, according to critics, consolidated power in the hands of Driscoll and his closest aides. Driscoll told the congregation that he asked advice on how to handle stubborn subordinates from a “mixed martial artist and Ultimate Fighter, good guy†who attends Mars Hill. “His answer was brilliant,†Driscoll reported. “He said, ‘I break their nose.’ †When one of the renegade elders refused to repent, the church leadership ordered members to shun him. One member complained on an online message board and instantly found his membership privileges suspended. “They are sinning through questioning,†Driscoll preached.
Like I said, you can’t be sure, but there is an all too familiar ring about this.
I’d like to get up on my box abut this, but it turns out that I already have. Many moons ago in the early days of Internet Monk, I was frequently critical of Rick Warren. I’ve taken a more sympathetic and positive route lately, but in the old days, Rick said some bone-headed things…..like “Never criticize what God is blessing.” That line could be translated as “If the pastor says it’s God’s will we do this, we aren’t going to listen to the critics.”
That inspired me to pen an IM essay many of you have never read, but which I feel was me at my snarky best: The Pope Needs a Business Meeting.
Go with me to the way our Baptist churches used to keep guys like Driscoll and Warren from saying things like “questioning is sinning.” The Business Meeting is a thing of beauty when applied directly to the blockhead.
READ: The Pope Needs A Business Meeting.
Then I’d like your thoughts and business meeting stories.
The Internet Monk Archives 
Michael Krahn: “If memory of the period in question serves correctly, the context of that quote is that the guys in question disagreed with something, were given adequate time and occasion to air their grievances, but there was little support for their perspective.”
And we are to take your memory as more credible than Molly Worthen’s well-researched article in the NYT?
BTW: Your memory does not serve you correctly.
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IMO,Driscoll pretty much rationalized away his treatment of fellow laborers, rebuffed rebukes and tried to justify his leadership reorg designed to gain power amongst and over men in setting aside the previous structure that was in place for a team to exercise God delegated authority to benefit the body.
Mark loves the limelight so God has met Mark in that venue via the NYT bringing up the issue that God still has with Mark.
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Sorry about that. You want to pick the one about the “New Chandelier”.
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For those who’ve never been to a true SBC business meeting here’s a link that will give you a taste of how some of the discussions can go.
http://www.rhapsody.com/playlistcentral/playlistdetail?playlistId=13868359
A minute and a half of Jerry Clower.
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iMonk: “unfortunately, there is a familiar pattern.”
Indeed.
Apparently so: http://prayingheart.wordpress.com
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It unfortunate, because there are a lot of folks out there confusing grace with entitlement. God doesn’t owe us a plugged nickel – not even the “elect”. I think both Calvin and Luther understood that. We can boldly approach the throne of Grace because of Christ, but boldness and arrogance are two completely different things. This is another way to fall into the faith-prosperity heresey without even trying. As the psalmist wrote, it is good to remember that we are dust.
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Favorite Driscoll quote of the whole firing the two elders deal: “Shut up and do as you ‘re told.” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM7dCj7QWKs)
Favorite line from the NY Times article: “Driscoll’s New Calvinism underscores a curious fact: the doctrine of total human depravity has always had a funny way of emboldening, rather than humbling, its adherents.”
Ouch on both counts.
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Not that there’s probably any way to ever make it work, but it might be interesting if, at the outset, the leaders could say:
“If you are a “member” but you have not actually contributed anything financially since our last business meeting, you have no right to say anything about the way we spend our money now.”
It would be interesting to see how many faces turn red…
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Obed,
After that was the budget portion of the meeting with the obligatory congregant-who-questions-every-cent in attendance. She might not have been to services in six months but there was no way she’d miss that meeting!
Oh my gosh, I could tell you some stories ….
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Chad Winters: No, no t-shirts this week. That series is probably a couple weeks away 🙂
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@ kcillini77:
Oh my!! I think we go to the same church!! (did you have giant T-shirts on stage for your last sermon?) *not as bad as it sounds* 🙂
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Steved
“Why is it that ANY criticism of a ministry constitutes criticism of the whole ministry. … As with several others I am uncomfortable with “They are sinning through questioning,†”
This attitude and the results of it are why 5 to 10 families, maybe more just left a church.
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Why is it that ANY criticism of a ministry constitutes criticism of the whole ministry. I believe that Driscoll is doing some good. He is dealing with some issues that are side stepped by other Evangelical pastors. However, he seems to have control issues. As with several others I am uncomfortable with “They are sinning through questioning,â€
Is it possible that God is working through part of the ministry,but the ministry might still have other issues?
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Yep, what RIchard said, and this reminds me of horror stories of giving sacrificially to churches to fund building projects that had huge cost over-runs and never panned out to be what the pastors announced publicly during capital campaign/building fund launches.
Per Chaplain Mike, I agree that evangelicals draw lines in the sand about sex (and I don’t think they shouldn’t) while tending to ignore the abuse of power or money. The scandal about that “should” be that the abuse of power and money is just as bad as a sexual scandal but is less likely to be considered bad by evangelicals. JEsus lambasted the Pharisees quite a bit but it wasn’t usually about their attitudes about sexual mores but about their approach to power and money, they love both too much, more or less. Evangelicals are probably more apt to be Pharisees than the mainliner Protestants who (at the risk of making a broad generalization) seem to have been more tempted to be Sadducees if you get my meaning.
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“I thought that any “gift†you gave made it no longer yours. But in my 30s I discovered that my mother (and apparently a LOT of other people) don’t feel that way.”
On a more serious note, gifts to churches and other charitable organizations are often made for a specific purpose. If I am told that the church needs a new roof and I give money for that purpose, I have cause to be upset if my gift is instead used for something else. It will give me pause the next time I am told of some need. If it turns out the roofing estimate was high and they raised more money than was needed, there are good options. They all involve either returning the unused money or asking permission to use it some other way.
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kcillini77: great comment and so true.
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As a member of a Saddleback clone church in the Kansas City area for the past 6 years or so, I frequently hear the “Don’t criticize what God is blessing” sentiment being relayed to the congregation through various means.
Taken at face value, the statement itself is true. If God blesses (in other words, honors) something, who are we to criticize it. The nagging, burning question that I am always trying to get an answer to but have yet to find is this: What is the evidence that God is blessing what we are doing?
In the past couple of years I have been tremendously encouraged by the areas of focus our church has taken – supporting the fatherless and the widows in our community and around the world with labor, finances, prayer, etc. I have seen in this church more than any other that I have ever been in a sincere desire to care for and love real people, not just in theory. That is what keeps me here.
But there is always a driving undercurrent of church growth (not church planting) that has put me at odds with the leadership. Leadership is always looking for new sites in the metro area to start new campuses where people can come watch our pastor on a video screen and form some semblance of community. This is the path that has been chosen. And it is not to be questioned. Why? Because every campus that has opened has brought more professions of faith. And if one more person comes to faith in Christ, God has blessed the endeavor.
I’m finally coming to realize that this is the evangelical mindset – it’s not unique to my church. The great commission speaks to making disciples, but we skip right to the baptism part and determine that the more professions of faith, the more baptisms we see in the confines of our church, the more evidence that God is blessing what we are doing. Therefore, we must proceed full speed ahead with expansion rather than camping out for awhile where we are and working more on that discipleship stuff.
I find the logic being employed highly flawed, but I find myself distinctly in the minority.
I would suspect if you ask Rick Warren or any other evangelical leader what the evidence of blessing is, he would say “People coming to Christ.” If that answer is complete enough for you than I would say that the statement not to criticize what God is blessing is spot on. If there is more to God’s blessing than witnessing someone claim to be His follower, then I think the statement breaks down. We have to have a common understanding of blessing in order to even initiate the conversation.
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Oh and the other thing is that Quakers require 100% unity to act on something. There is no majority rules. It’s 100% or it gets shelved until next time, and frequently a better option will present itself while everyone is praying about the situation.
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Individual Quaker meetings have buisness meetings EVERY month – which is why they’re called monthly meetings. Not because they only have worship once a month, but because we have buisness meetings once a month. Once a year is not enough to handle the issues that can arise within a body over the course of the year. It makes for a very long day when we have monthly meeting, but we tend to get a lot of potential problems resolved at them.
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I always remember the follwoing when reading news articles in the main stream press:
1. Most journliasts are full of it, and will print utter nonsense if it makes them money.
I’m no fan of Driscoll, but I’m even less a fan of the media.
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Scripture clearly lays out the three basic sins of human beings in 1 John 2.16 — “the desire of the flesh, the desire of the eyes, and the pride of life.” To put it bluntly: Sex, money, and power. We all know where evangelicalism stands on sex. The movement is ambivalent about money. And it says next to nothing about power, its temptations and corruptions.
Without casting any personal criticism toward Driscoll, may I just suggest that anyone who is a “CEO” of an organization as large as these megachurches, who puts his image up on giant screens before thousands of people week after week and boldly expects people to take his words as the Word of God, must have a pretty big ego that might be prone to the temptations and corruptions that such power brings?
Abuse of power may be the most harmful and least recognized of all sins. We need much more teaching about this.
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bob pinto
“I thought once you gave money away it was no longer yours.”
I thought that any “gift” you gave made it no longer yours. But in my 30s I discovered that my mother (and apparently a LOT of other people) don’t feel that way.
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I was listening to Professor Terry Mattingly on Steve Brown Etc the other day as he was giving a rundown on the top ten religion stories in the media for 2008. Prof. Mattingly often says that the mainstream press just doesn’t get religion.
I was reminded of that as the NYT story linked above tried to make it seem like Driscoll has single-handedly brought Calvinism from extinction. John Piper, anyone? How about, well, MOST of Presbyterianism? And there’s some serious Calvinism in some corners of the Baptist Church. Absolutely silly.
Anyway, aren’t business meetings a hoot? In the last couple of years of membership at my old Church, I made sure to have schedule conflicts for those nights. Ours were mostly “5 minute” reports from the 25 different departments that were usually more like 10-15 minutes. And that was 25 departments in a Church of under 150. After that was the budget portion of the meeting with the obligatory congregant-who-questions-every-cent in attendance. She might not have been to services in six months but there was no way she’d miss that meeting!
A friend of mine had just started coming to the church, and the business meeting was his first special event. I don’t even think he was a member yet. I felt BAAAAD for that guy. Especially since I had forgotten to tell him to avoid it (but had managed to avoid it myself)!
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iMonk,
I think I read that essay about Warren the first time around. It is another reminder of why I love this site so much: a little dose of reality, a little pinch of humor or two and a bit of encouragement in one easy stop. My worst business meeting moments came years ago at the first church I served as youth pastor after I got married. I was told going in that there had been some friction in the church regarding the handling of the youth program, but I was naive enough to think that they had gotten past it. I learned later that the church felt the best way to resolve it was to bring in someone who didn’t have a “dog in the fight” so to speak, but that didn’t mean that the fight was over. I think that was the first time I have seen someone throw a fit and start crying in a business meeting. It was probably the toughest year of ministry I have ever done, but it was a great learning experience.
The church I serve now is 180 degrees opposite. We actually have fun during our business meetings here. Of course, this is a small church and a tight knit family of believers, so it has a much different feeling anyway.
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We are extremely good at finding excuses to slip into sinful behavior.
If we are a member, and we are having trouble with authority expecting to speak into our lives, then we quote all those Jonestown-style stories about evil leaders who damaged their followers. And, frankly, they are quite true. Sadly, many of us members have directly suffered at the hands of authoritarian leaders. But, it is also a handy excuse to use to refuse to listen to those who have watch over our lives (see Hebrews 13).
If we are a leader, and we are having trouble with the Body of Christ calling us to account, then we have all sorts of church-board-run-amuck stories about boards that savaged their pastors. And, frankly, they are true. Sadly, many of us pastors have directly suffered at the hands of carnal church boards. But, it is also a handy excuse to use to refuse to listen to the Body of Christ speaking into our lives.
Do you know why Orthodox Churches have so many canons? Because we have found so many creative ways to sin. You would be surprised at the multiplicity of issues that the canons address. There are so many canons, that there are books of commentary written on the canons. Yes, we really are that creative at finding ways and excuses to sin.
Without knowing more about the context of Driscoll’s statement, it is impossible for me to say who is the sinner in that situation. But, I guarantee you that we Orthodox have a canon to deal with the situation. LOL.
[And, if we do not, we will write one. GRIN.]
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Not directly on point, but related – the first I heard of Pastor Driscoll was yesterday when a conservative blog I read linked to some YouTube videos of his sermons. I watched one and was shocked. Pastor Driscoll was listing sexual activities and delineating which were sinful and which were not. One in particular caught the attention of my Catholic ear – my faith clearly says it is “gravely sinful” and Pastor Driscoll said the activity was just fine as long one doesn’t become a slave to it. They cannot both be right. The word “pope” crossed my mind, but I thought, “this guy is relying on nothing more than his own inspiration.” A chill really did run up my spine – such a grave responsibility to be accountable for all those souls. I will pray for him.
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Daniel, agreed on the end quote. You would think that serious Calvinists would be the most humble people on earth but history tends to demonstrate otherwise for too many of them.
Now that people have mentioned that there is a difference between “asking a question” and “questioning”, which is an important thing to add from the sermon Driscoll preached on that topic, what does that actually mean? Obviously an article in the NY can’t even start to address that and it’s not easy. What seems like “asking a question” to one person is “questioning” to someone else. Even if we assume that “questioning” isn’t the same as “asking a question” what does it mean? That issue won’t go away and I think that may be what iMonk is getting at–leaders can misinterpret “asking a question” as “questioning” or vice versa.
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Probably. It was an awful time. I didn’t want to leave. They didn’t want me to leave. Denise was happy to be there. It was home. And God just said it was time to go. I never cried so much. And I’ve preached in a church less than 10 x in the last 3 years.
I dunno.
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Thanks, Michael. I must be mis-remembering what I read that brought me here (or am thinking of another site).
I’ve skimmed your archives and essays and can’t find anything like what I was remembering. Did you write something here when you gave up the 12-year interim slot?
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I was on church staff from 1976-1988. I was pastor from 88-92 and at my current ministry since 92. I’ve done some small church interim work (12 year in one place) while here. But nothing now.
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This is the best line in the Driscoll article.
“Driscoll’s New Calvinism underscores a curious fact: the doctrine of total human depravity has always had a funny way of emboldening, rather than humbling, its adherents.”
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Do you really need to vote on paying the light bill? You gotta pay it!
Heh. willoh, we’re not quite that bad, yet, but I’ve noticed nobody wants to be the guy who buys the toilet paper.
For the two plus decades I was on Baptist church staff I burned people out with this approach to congregation.
When was that? I ask because I think that’s when I found your site, Michael.
Very little was ever done. Wheels turned. Noises were made. Energy was expanded….and the same people made the show happen or not.
I really loathe committees now. They destroy family time which is a crime that the church needs to seriously repent of wherever it occurs.
Yes! This is where we are, and where we are hoping to leave. It once took something a few months to allow a Sunday School teacher to buy paint out of her own pocket and paint her kidnergarten Sunday School room. That’s not even a snowflake on the tip of the iceburg.
The answer isn’t elder autocracy, however. The answer is smaller churches + generous elder rule integrated with congregational oversight.
Right, and I do think our committee members (and congregation) want that. There’s no pressure from the pastor (who has been with us about 25 years, and is thinking of retirement, but knows we’re not in the right place to endure a pastor change right now) or from Diaoconate to adopt a specific model. There’s an expressed desire from many who do much of the work to adopt a more sane, efficient model.
Our governance committee is moving slowly on and with purpose. And if/when we find/develop a model of government that we believe is healthy and workable, we’ll ask the congregation to suspend our by-laws for six months or a year, and try out the new model without marrying ourselves to it.
My wife is now going to the RC church and is being assigned to one committee after another. I can’t believe she’s doing it, but to each their own.
Saints preserve us! 🙂 To the best of my recollection, there’s nothing in the standard marriage vows prohibiting you from wallowing in a little schadenfreude. I’m just saying. (Denise, if you’re reading — j/n).
This fall, our congregation dealt with a trying issue I’m not sure I should go into, here. The various committees seemed to me to be treating one another as adversaries. We took the matter before the congregation (which was appropriate, and it was a relief we could do so). Although the congregation resolved the issue the way I thought it should be, the hostility between committees prior to congregational involvement, left me wounded and with a bitter taste in my mouth, such that I briefly flirted with the idea of swimming the Tiber, so I could just go to church, worship, and be told what to do.
My raised-RCC, now-Protestant husband laughed at me, and I imagined God was laughing at me too, but reading your comment and realizing I’d have just ended up on numerous Catholic Committees makes me suspect God was laughing even harder than I’d originally imagined.
P.S. Since this was a Driscoll related post, I’ll mention our church cancelled it’s 9:00 AM Chapel service today because of snow, but held the 10:30 AM Sanctuary service. I’m Sunday School Sup., so I called my teachers and told them not to feel pressured to come, then e-mailed the parents to let them know which teachers could be there, which couldn’t, and which weren’t sure. (Sunday School happens in our church halfway through the worship service).
I didn’t attend, because I don’t see church as a job. 😉
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Hi Michael,
I appreciate your posts to FB, it has gotten me back into reading your stuff. This one reminded me of a time when I would support Rick Warren’s statement, or the quote from Driscoll, on the grounds of spiritual authority. Over the years I have yet to see it pan out to where people were loved in the name of church authority, but I have seen people treated very badly on those grounds. It was OK with me until I was the one under the magnifying glass.
The article on Driscoll sure turns my crank though. Maybe it’s because I live only 300 miles from Seattle. I can relate to the style and substance of what’s being talked about. Maybe on our next trip out there we’ll visit. It would be the first time darkening the doors of a ch***h in some time.
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JohnD wrote:
The pastor instructed the remaining members to shun us, as by shunning we would see the error of our ways. Families were split. Friendships were abandoned. I was shunned by my entire family – they all remained part of the group.
And the pastor of the group – I should mention that he’s my dad.
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How terrible, yet I saw this too frequently when I was with Jehovah’s Witnesses. The reasoning was word for word what has been spoken of in the essay and comments. And the Bible always backed it up.
Disfellowshipping, it was called.
Another authoratative pastor in an independant Baptist church I was in said he was a god (“ye are gods”) and that “touch not my anointed” stuff made him truly think that God struck a man who hassling this pastor dead with a heart attack.
And Imonk’s comment about the big givers dictating how the money should go:
I thought once you gave money away it was no longer yours.
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I am an Anglican. Our church is hierarchical and trans-local. However, at a deeper level, our church is a rule of law outfit. We ave canons that delineate what the bishop has the authority to do, what the rector has authority to do, what the vestry (the board) has the authority to do and what the congregation has the authority to do.
I have been in congregational meeting type polities and elder rule polities. So far 🙂 my current set up is my favorite model of governance. Things are spelled out from the beginning. And, as rector/pastor I have things that I am simply in charge of. For example, I am the chief liturgical officer. I do not go to a committee or a board, etc. I am free to make worship decisions as I see fit as long as the fall within the boundaries given by our doctrinal and liturgical formularies. At the same time, there are things I simply am not in charge of. If I try to take control of them I get in trouble.
The up front clarity and clear boundaries are freeing and healthy.
Of course this system, like all others, is run by humans. They sin. The system can get corrupted. People can get hurt. In the end, these models are ways to do the best we can with broken people — including broken pastors. But hey, like I always say, the key to happiness is to lower your expectations!
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That story is old news. The news is that the NYT’s has latched onto it. That in itself might be more of a story than the actual story. I followed the events that the NYT’s outlines through a couple of blogs real time. So it is not like it was hidden from the public. Yes it was messy and a controversy of some consequence, but for anyone who has paid attention to Driscoll, it was “Vintage Driscoll”. HA!
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Cindy
I was trained as an Alinsky organizer, just like Mr. Pres. Elect and Hilary, but with better bonafides. As we put together coalitions of organizations, if one was giving us a hard time, we were taught to spur them into endless meetings, preferably over by-laws, and in so doing render them useless. Imagine if all that time went into loving and teaching.
Elder government , with a complete “Sunshine Law” works. Too often I saw members who were still wet behind the ears from the baptistry lobbied into a vote pool, or even worse put into an office just because the by-laws said the office was needed. I went into a church as an interim Preacher that had 17 offices and 5 people, no ministry.
New believers and those seeking salvation do not need added burdens. Do you really need to vote on paying the light bill? You gotta pay it!
Elders need to be open and readily answer any questions, but why waste time with trivia?
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Cindy:
What you are describing is one reason I am not participating in an evangelical congregation, but am sticking with my student ministry worship services.
For the two plus decades I was on Baptist church staff I burned people out with this approach to congregation. Very little was ever done. Wheels turned. Noises were made. Energy was expanded….and the same people made the show happen or not.
I really loathe committees now. They destroy family time which is a crime that the church needs to seriously repent of wherever it occurs.
The answer isn’t elder autocracy, however. The answer is smaller churches + generous elder rule integrated with congregational oversight.
My wife is now going to the RC church and is being assigned to one committee after another. I can’t believe she’s doing it, but to each their own.
Maybe it’s purgatory 🙂
peace
ms
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Oh — I left out our nominating committee, which has the job of — yes — nominating people to our other committees (and itself).
Here’s our Covenant for Working and Worshipping Together, in case any of Michael’s readers are members of churches whose business meetings are just a leeeetle too exciting:
*We will be as honest as we can with each other.
*We will speak to one another with respect.
*We will all be responsible for the successful implementation of any action we decide to take.
*We will communicate directly to each other using the first person “Iâ€.
*We will recognize and identify merit in another person’s idea before we note its weakness.
*We will repeat what the other person has said to confirm we have understood them, and ask them to do the same if we feel we have not been understood.
*We will not jump to conclusions.
*We will listen to understand, but don’t necessarily have to agree.
*We will deal only with “Directly Observable Data†(D.O.D.), not rumors, and seek to understand all sides.
Sometimes we refer to it as our Kindergarten Rules (because look at them). Also, my CE chair likes to point out that the item which reads: “We will recognize and identify merit in another person’s idea before we note its weakness” has a HUGE assumption built into it, but that’s just a joke a full 62% of the time.
Despite the above, we’re quite serious about doing business in accordance with the covenant. Acting in a non-covenental way is the only thing that will get you in hot water (and even then, not really, because we’re Yankee Protestants, so we go home and grouse). We open all meetings in prayer, then whichever committee chair takes out the Covenant, reads the first point, passes it to the next person who reads the next point, and we keep passing it until we’ve read through it. We follow the agenda. We close in prayer. In CE, we make it a point to hold hands while praying, but not all committees do this.
Our annual Congregational meetings always include us singing “Blest Be The Ties That Bind,” which touches me deeply, and usually erases any annoyance (usually budget related) that I’ve felt during the meeting itself.
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In the end…it comes down to heart and motivation. If you raise question in a Berean way (testing the Church’s activities and teachings to see if they are inline with Scripture) or in a divisive “I like to make trouble and I’m right and you’re wrong kind of way”. I will say that if I was in some of these Pharisee driven churches that some of the commenters described I would definitely be questioning
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NOTE In my last comment, when I wrote: “sometimes it does feel like the glitz gets in the way of the cross and He who took it up for us (no matter how unintentionally)” the parenthetical refers back to the glitz getting in the way (because of course Christ took up the cross for us quite intentionally). I hope that was obvious, but after I had some more coffee, I realized how clunky my comment was. My apologies.
iMonk — about the business meeting…
I’m a member of a congregation established by Puritans in 1644, in Massachusetts. Our church governance is a forebear of U.S. democracy (warts and all). We have multiple committees (Diaconate, Christian Ed, Board of Trustees, Outreach, Personnel, Music, and I’m sure I’m missing something), each of which holds a monthly board meeting. Members are welcome to attend all meeting (although we sometimes adjourn to executive session if there’s a personnel issue — like staff evaluations — you haven’t lived until you’ve done an evaluation by committe — ugh).
The Pastor reports to the Diaconate, so he attends its monthly meeting. We also have a Church Council (made up of the chairs of all the committees and two at-large congregational reps, as well as the pastor) which meets monthly, too. We also have an annual Congregational Meeting. On every meeting agenda, there is a time to discuss “new business.” At our church, Moderator is a position unto itself, and the moderator chairs the monthly Church Council meeting and any congregational meetings, too. The current mod. is particularly fond of Roberts Rules of Order.
Additionally, we hold special congregational meetings during the year, when something comes up (i.e. we just had one to hire a new youth pastor; because the old one left during the business year). We have to post “warrants” in certain, approved spots in the building, well ahead of time, in order to have these meetings (this is in addition to including it in the weekly bulletins and church calendar, and weekly announcements).
Our meetings are not as entertaining as those recounted in your delightful Business Meeting Post, but we have a “Covenent For Working and Worshipping Together” (developed before I joined the church; because, as I understand it, our meetings used to be just as entertaining) which is read aloud by the attendees before every meeting held in church. And? We can still get hot and heavy.
The downside is that we have meeting fatigue. I’m now on an ad-hoc committee (what else) looking at new ways of congregational church governance, including a board-of-elder style. I’m largely in favor of making a change, because our goverment is cumbersome and keeps us from getting much done, and fewer and fewer people are willing to join a committee (committee members are elected, by the by). One of my main concerns though, is to preserve…ah I’ll just call it the “checks and balances” inherent in our current polity, to protect those in powerful positions from…well…from ourselves.
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You’ve not seen business meetings until you’ve been to a Quaker business meeting. No voting– everything’s done by consensus and listening to the Spirit. If no consensus, they usually table it and pray more. It does help to fight the “tyranny of the majority,” but my mom told me a story about it taking her four months to get a new vacuum cleaner for the meeting house.
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@ Michael Bell,
Of course it did. That was the effect that the writer wanted to convey. I read it, and said, “p-leeeaaaase, you are just writing this to get a response out of your readers.
You’re right, of course. I write for a living, and recognized the crafting when I saw it — but still? It did happen and happened in such a way that the reporter took note.
To be fair though, I know I’m tired of McChurch to the point where I’m biased against much of its so-called style. That said, I completely agree with your earlier point: “[I]f I only have a problem with the style, but not with the teaching or theology, then I am on very thin grounds for criticizing anything.”
I’m fond of liturgy and reverence, but understand, accept, and will and do support more modern ways of “doing church” even if I don’t care for all of them, because what matters is that we preach Christ and Him crucified. It’s just that for me personally — the fewer power point presentations in my sanctuary — the better, because sometimes it does feel like the glitz gets in the way of the cross and He who took it up for us (no matter how unintentionally).
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Heard a man preach one Sunday night who studied prodigals. After 20 years of study, he found one common element in each prodigal’s story: A bad experience at a church business meeting. Maybe not reason #1, but according to him, they all shared it.
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I read an article yesterday on humility by Tim Keller–from a link on Brother Maynard’s site. I would recommend anyone looking at the NYT article on Driscoll to check out the Keller article which appeared in Christianity Today.
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As long as congregations continue to embrace an American corporate business model, we should not be surprised at the potential negative results:
1. A focus on efficiency over compassion with the corresponding fixation on statistics
2. A hierarchical, domineering management structure over leaders-as-servants
3. Multiple departmental “silos” with separate, often conflicting agendas over open consensus.
4. Reliance on outside consultants over the combined experience, wisdom, skills and passions of the members.
Michael, your essay on business meetings really hit home with me. As a former (and now reformed) finance committee chairman, I got to be the lighting rod for questions during the annual budget reviews. I abhorred the power my committee had in deciding who got what as we developed the budget that was presented to the congregation.
Ultimately, we adopted a ground-up budget process where each committee presented their needs for the upcoming year and my committee simply presented them as submitted, without the usual “you can have what you you had last year plus x%”. Needless to say, that really brought out two very different camps at the business meeting: One being the “lets step out on faith according God’s leading in all these areas” and the other being “lets be practical stewards of God’s money.”
What good sport…
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I don’t know if Pastors Driscoll or Warren need a business meeting but having grown up Southern Baptist I recognized my tribe.
The best part of these meetings were just as Mr. Monk has stated, that the high were brought low and vice-versa.
When did it become acceptable for church groups to have high priests?
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Interlocutor:
a. The elders were appointed by the pastor, who received a really good salary. There were plenty of people who would have liked to serve in elder capacity who were deprived of the privilege.
b. I believe in full-disclosure of finances
c. We began to look into what other monies were being spent on the leadership by the leadership
d. Good stewardship should not mean, “give your money to the church and then the authorities are accountable to God for how it is spent.” Good stewardship, if you are a card-carrying member means, “be involved in how the monies are spent.”
“Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
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yeah, a yellow cross is so kitsch. thank goodness they covered it with driscoll’s mug!
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Another thought:
“Yes, there is a tendency to think that the successful church is God’s cause, so anyone who becomes a critic, becomes an enemy. A sinner. One to be shunned.”
This is a feature of evangelical thinking that this non-evangelical finds particularly offputting: the belief by an individual that God has a plan for him or her, that he or she knows what this plan is, and therefore anyone disagreeing with him or her is doing Satan’s work. In its full absurdity this can apply to every aspect of life, down to and including where to go to lunch. This gets very old very quickly.
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@ Boethius:
Did they treat themselves on the church’s dime? That is the only reason I can think why it would be the congregation’s business.
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I would not give any significant money to a church without open finances: a published budget, periodic auditing and so forth. I suppose that it isn’t absolutely necessary that the budget be voted on by the congregation, but that is what I am used to. Lutherans in America typically have an annual meeting for this, and as a previous poster pointed out, this meeting ideally is very very dull. These meetings are nonetheless necessary, as the alternative is hidden finances while unaddressed concerns fester.
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I just got finished re-reading Ronald Enroth’s Churches That Abuse this weekend (I discovered he posted it online) and so when I read Driscoll’s line in the Times this morning it definitely got my attention. What? Sinning through questioning? Since when is questioning wrong? God encourages me to question Him. I never hear Him as clearly as when I’m asking Him for answers. (I don’t always like the answers, but that’s another discussion.)
But let’s step back a bit. People who aren’t used to a Christian context really don’t know how to deal with the issue of authority, and find the idea of a pastor that can speak with any authority into your life as cult-like and wrong. So it’s no surprise to me that Driscoll comes off that way in this piece. Pagans like their spiritual leaders to be buddies and advisors, with no real input, and to not get in their way when they claim the right to participate in worship. That’s why they have a conniption whenever priests deny the Eucharist to politicians who think Catholic doctrines are optional.
For that reason I’m gonna give Driscoll the benefit of the doubt. He may have chosen the wrong word to describe what was really going on. If you’re a Christian, a subordinate in any organization, and don’t like the way things are running, you do as Jesus told us to: You go to the folks you have a problem with, then you get others involved, and lastly you dissolve the relationship (or “shun,” as the Times put it). At no point does Jesus authorize us to hop on a message board and side-stab ’em.
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Cindy,
“That gave me chills down my spine.”
Of course it did. That was the effect that the writer wanted to convey. I read it, and said, “p-leeeaaaase, you are just writing this to get a response out of your readers. I have heard the same sort of comments from people complaining about power-point worship. “The screen covers cross!” Well of course it does. We want the cross to be in a central place where everyone can see it. We also want the power-point to be in a place that everyone can see it so that we can worship together. By the nature of how we sit in the room, with the direction that our chairs are facing, the best was to do that is if both cross and screen use the same space.
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Two thoughts…
I have to agree with this statement. First of all, if God is truly blessing something, then by criticizing it, I am criticizing God. Secondly, if I only have a problem with the style, but not with the teaching or theology, then I am on very thin grounds for criticizing anything.
My second thought revolves around business meetings. If truth be told, I ask more questions in Church Business meetings than just about anyone I know. But I try to do it with a tone of genuine respect.
I also understand where willoh is coming from. If I consider the tone of many business meetings that I have been too, and then compare that with the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control) there seems to be a major disconnect. Like willoh I much prefer a strong elder based form of governance, and as for business meetings, a moderator who is not afraid to say that you need to apologize for the tone of your last statements.
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When I was growing up in my home church, I remember more than one annual church business meeting that went horribly wrong. In those days the congregation had an annual vote of confidence for the minister – a surefire way to paralyze ministry and cause a lot of stress for the minister’s family. During one meeting I remember people standing up and yelling at each other because of disagreements. (That church hasn’t held business meetings like that in a long time.)
This was an example of the minister really having no power of authority at all, which is one extreme. The other extreme seems to cases like Mars Hill. Driscoll can be such an anomaly because he is sometimes brilliant, and sometimes comes across as arrogant. He seems to be the most “driven” of the emerging-type pastors these days.
I wonder, though, if his style of leadership has been so successful because that’s what is effective in Seattle, a highly unchurched area. I don’t think Driscoll would have the same results in the Midwest.
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At one suburban campus that I visited, a huge yellow cross dominated center stage — until the projection screen unfurled and Driscoll’s face blocked the cross from view.
That gave me chills down my spine.
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I’m a part of the International Churches of Christ. If you’ve heard of us, either you’re part of us or you’re nodding knowingly right now. We were very authoritarian and hierarchical. Questioning was a no no. We were also a close knit, international organization of about 250K membersa t it’s peak I think.
In 2003, a fairly high up leader in one church wrote 40 some page paper rebuking the sins of the group, abuse of authority being one of the main things. It was written adn intended for the upper leadership, but it hit the web and spread like wildfire. Churches had open meetings to air things out. Well, in a church where nothing like this had ever existed, it got fairly ugly in some cases and the leaders didn’t know how to respond. Not sure that an open meeting like that is the best in those circumstances, but silencing the members isn’t good at all.
We lost lots of members. Some to other churches, but many left any sort of church. It was a sad time, but not as sad, frankly, as what had been done to so many over the years. We were very arrogant and hurtful. Our churches are different now, but not universally so. Some still long for the old days and there’s still some old thinking out here. It varies from church to church. Where I am things are quite different than they were (or I wouldn’t be here), although there were times I didn’t know that we’d get here.
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Thanks for that link, tim. I was hoping to find the whole sermon, instead of spliced snippets, and you provided the key. You can hear it all at http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/rebels-guide-to-joy/the-rebels-guide-to-joy-in-temptation
In the sermon Driscoll mentioned that the elders had written a 145 page document to answer the congregation’s questions about the discipline issue. I do not know Driscoll and his staff well enough to try to defend them from charges of megalomania, but I’d not expect megalomaniacs to do something like that. I suppose it is possible though.
I found the distinction that he draws between “asking a question” and “questioning” helpful.
And yeah, Driscoll is prone to overstatement; and yeah, the “shut up and do what you’re told” line was probably over the top; and yeah, that wouldn’t fly at my church, which is a long way from Seattle (and not just geographically.) But on the other hand, weren’t the Philippians sinning through grumbling and questioning, and aren’t we capable of doing the same?
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I can’t stand business meetings! We do not have them. We went to strong elder governance and it was a blessing. I was at too many of those crazy meeting Imonk described, and God willing will never be at another. There was no God in them. People who never in their lives had authority or power were all of a sudden the boss of the pastor. I do not need to list the problems, Imonk did.
This is not new Testament church, this is the American idea of democracy gone crazy. There are plenty of guiding verses and principles in scripture for elders to follow.
As far as Driscoll goes, he has a great work, bible based, doing Kingdom work. Sure he should have used “murmuring in the camp” but the guy preaches on his feet, dangerous, he is a hip shooter, but that is his style.
If all y’all [see I am SBC] want to pile on, go for it, but I followed the whole thing on Youtube, his opponents post also, and I am not going to criticize. I couldn’t handle his ministry. Honestly a punch in the face could do a soul good on occasion, but maybe I just spent too much time in the ring as one of those martial art good guys.
As to the Pope at a baptist business meeting, this mental image breaks me up! The thought of infallibility is far from the mind of a church business meeting attendee’s mind. Unless of course it is his own infallibility…that’s different!
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This brings to mind what happened to me – probably the most traumatic part of my life:
I was part of a non denominational church that had begun as a home fellowship. The leader became authoritarian. Our lives were dictated. No TV. No pants for women. A higher education was frowned on. So was sports. No dating. Communal living. Constant work projects. Our own school. Regular fasting. Health food.
Then a family thought they’d leave to help their related pastor in his church. That instigated others to question the way our church was operating. Our pastor got worried that this questioning would spread through the congregation and called an emergency meeting, which he chaired. He invited those who had something to say to the podium. Then he told all who were questioning that they needed to repent. So most of the congregation repented right there. But the next day, many realized that questioning was not improper.
The pastor decided that the way to deal with this was to have the congregation sign a paper saying that they would submit to the authority of the leadership. I was among those who did not sign this, knowing the implications of this submission. As a result, many of us were excommunicated. The pastor instructed the remaining members to shun us, as by shunning we would see the error of our ways. Families were split. Friendships were abandoned. I was shunned by my entire family – they all remained part of the group.
And the pastor of the group – I should mention that he’s my dad.
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This is all too true and hysterical. I finally had the courage as pastor to get our small rural church to drop it’s 40 year old rule on women wearing only dresses and no pants to church. The vast majority didn’t want to keep the rule either but the past few pastors had been too afraid of the vocal minority to do it. After we lost about two families of un-saved prospects over it, I finally ponied up and ask the church to drop the rule. There was a very contentious business meeting to follow, but it was worth it.
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My favorite line: “It certainly can mean ‘shut up and do what you’re told.’ That’s what it means.”
Wow.
And, is the translation of “questioning” correct?
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I’ve been to a few and there is something healthy about the openness of it all, if for no other reason than learning to listen is essential to spiritual leadership. Yes, the trivial stuff can be annoying, but it comes with the territory. Not sure if the business meeting is the best specific format, but the church does need the collective wisdom of the gathered community. I worry a lot when I hear that leaders are working to concentrate power. I’ve worked in enough Christian organizations and have seen that when this happens it’s usually intentional, and the amount of listening goes down, and humility often goes out the window. Accountability is also usually diminished. So bring on the business meeting and the gathered community with all its warts and calluses and idiosyncrasies. That is the church.
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Boethius,
Why’d you criticize them for going to a nice restaurant?
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Absolutely, every church needs a Business Meeting. After leaving the RC church, I landed in a non-denominational church. I criticized the pastor, elders and their wives for going to a very expensive restaurant as a Christmas present to themselves. The elders were all appointed by the pastor. The pastor’s wife said it was none of my business. I told her it was every member’s business. The pastor then told me I had a critical spirit. I told them I was already damed to hell by the Roman Catholics and therefore, rebellion against him would be nothing in comparison.
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Now I’m going to have flashbacks and nightmares… I’ve been a pastor for 20 years and before each annual meeting I pray, “Lord, make it a boring one…” The only problem with such “formats” is that usually, like most of the examples in this fine essay, it’s the trivial complaints that get aired.
I agree that pastors should not be untouchable. Elders keep them humble too, and for the most part, in churches small enough to really know the pastor, he’s quite accountable to questions.
The founders of Wake Forest were baptist pastors who named the team the DEMON DEACONS. Meetings like this are why.
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Wes,
the sermon in question (no pun intended) is from his series on Philippians, on the passage about grumbling and disputing.
here’s the actual excerpt being referred to:
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The Baptist meeting sounds an awful lot like the Lutheran meetings I had growing up. Although, since we were a small town, whenever the idea of changing the church came up, routinely you’d hear someone saying “You just don’t know what it’s like, you haven’t grown up in this church like I have!” (Favorite response, btw, was “What part of the church? The doorknobs?”). By the by, as silly as listening to the youth leader say the Tahiti trip would totally be Christian, it was even harder if you’re the youth representative that had to sell that piece of nonsense when you didn’t even believe it. Ah, good times.
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I’d like to know the context of that quote. Anyone know if that sermon is available online?
I also enjoyed this sentence: “He came to admire Martin Luther, the vulgar, beer-swilling theological rebel who sparked the Reformation.”
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Michael: I’m sure its quite likely that the elder board at MH has a kind of unity policy, i.e. when the decision is made, you support it. That’s not my view of good church polity, but I understand it. I work under that sort of rule myself.
But the quote is “sinning by questioning.” My problem is that word questioning. “Sinning by being divisive?” That makes more sense, but if you publicly say someone is sinning by questioning, I, personally, think you’ve gone too far.
peace
ms
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Michael,
If memory of the period in question serves correctly, the context of that quote is that the guys in question disagreed with something, were given adequate time and occasion to air their grievances, but there was little support for their perspective.
Rather than accepting the decision of the church leadership to not act on their suggestions, they sowed seeds of division and remained vocal about their objections.
That’s from memory, someone no doubt will give a more detailed and factual account shortly.
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