Christians: What are you saying about the President?

173 thoughts on “Christians: What are you saying about the President?”

1. Thank you, it is very good! I like it very much

   LikeLike

2. I don’t know what to say. I really do not even comment on such blogs. I desire the cease to be mundane and vain in such matters, but I am what I am. flesh and blood, like the rest of mankind — squishing about and trying to say something of importance. Although the thought of “saying something” is perhaps profoundly meaningless. I don’t even know that what I would say would have any weight at all — but I will try.

   Apart from all the political issues and opinions on whether one supports or opposes what — what issues are agreed on or not — one thing remains… pounding like a restless hammer in my heart…

   Are we sincerely ready to love our neighbors and get on peacefully? Ready to see those showing up at the doorsteps at the one who does such? It is like the hunger of a little Tiny Tim and his master’s table, begging for more. What do I mean by this? Someone mentioned it so nicely earlier … it is those who are like us, different from us —in varying degrees from a little to starkly so who are our neighbors. We need to try something we have never tried before in order to see any sort of change (and that includes a change in us). Many are afraid of loving boundlessly, because for them it means compromising or losing “the faith”. We are too vain by trying to get everyone to agree with us — see things our way or behave as we would have it. Yet, we do not see the shaky image staring back at us when we look in the mirror (at least, symbolically). We forget about how shameful we feel when we do things or say things in private we would not even dare allowing others to know about. We are addicted to all sorts of sorts and suffer from unhappiness. We too fear death and sorrow. And often are the cause. All of us — have the rage, the strong will, the evil the perversity, and tumultuous, relentless desire for love. We are bored and search for meaning through others and leaders and presidents and “church doctrine”. All these things may be good, but not without sincerity and the desire, at least, to be willing to love boundlessly. It is this love that leaves me speechless and thirsty for life and understanding and an unspeakable acceptance of others — even though it may be those who harm themselves or others or offend my train of thought. The stinky, the poor – the rich — the perv — Pagan. It is the God of this sort of love I seek. I don’t want to live any sort of agenda — only to give my best shot at loving and understanding and eating and drinking in the company of the lovely, rugged, horrific, simple and profound human beings God created for me to cultivate and for me to be cultivated by. I don’t know .. but I believe it will be this sort of untainted love (untainted by personal, political, or other sorts of agendas or evils), which will bring us back to the beginning and the end of Hope.
   Thank you for taking my comment.

   LikeLike

3. Thank you for the article.

   It is true that we need to pray for our leaders that they make the right choices in these difficult and trying times.

   However, we are in a different situation than the early Christians. In the world and country they lived in, if they spoke out against the tyranny of the government they would likely be killed. They would then be unable to spread the word of Jesus.

   We are at a Critical time in our country where the media congratulates those of moral terpitude thereby encouraging men, women and children to follow the sinful road. You want to make it big like a rock star, cheat on your wife, be promiscuis, cuss, drink and do drugs.

   The people that promoted this president from the very begining are the same people that promote these ideas to our children. They have an agenda and have a large amount of influence on President Obama and his party.

   We as Christian have an obligation to expose this underlying current that flows money and influence into the government.

   We should obey the law. We should also understand (which few people in our counrty do) we are not subjects to a monarchy. The leaders of this country do not rule us. They are our employees. We own the government and should understand that if they are doing something wrong we have an obligation to this country, that God has entrusted us with, to do something about it.

   PRAY, PLEASE PRAY that our new president will hear the word of God speaking to him and lead him on a straight and noble path. If the president starts to step off that path, we need to call him on it in a very loud way.

   Too many people have fought and died for our freedoms to let anyone take them away at once or a little bit at a time.

   Pray and keep your eyes open.

   LikeLike

4. It’s too bad that you didn’t write this when Christians weren’t supporting President Bush.

   LikeLike

5. Hi everyone,
   I agree with iMonk, pray for those in authority (1 Tim 2:2). I also agree especially on 1 Peter 2.
   1 Peter 2:23 (see 1 Peter 2:18-24) says of Jesus, ‘and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;’. What an excellent example Jesus Christ left and lived for us! What then shall we put into practice?
   If we suffer momentary light affliction now (2 Cor 4:17) in seeking to follow God the Father’s will (compared to an ETERNITY in HEAVEN) then what is it for us to pray for those in authority?
   AS we Christians take our disappointments and our disagreements and our fears and we pray and we lift them up to God our loving Father, the Creator, we are submitting ourselves NOT for our WILL but for HIS to be done, in awaiting God’s response.
   Thanks, all, for your time on this.
   -jc <

   LikeLike

6. I think no matter how we voted, we all need an Inauguration day Attitude Check. Where is our hope? Not in government. Yet still, we are called to pray…and submit. Yikes! For a full thoughtful evangelical’s post, check out Red Letter Believers at:

   http://redletterbelievers.blogspot.com/2009/01/inauguration-day-attitude-check.html

   LikeLike

7. sorry, I don’t submit to this. I agree with your outreach, but I don’t agree that most Christians everywhere are being racist and full of hate. None of your example comments were racist at all. It’s just easy to say Christians and repubs are racist because it’s said all the time. Yeah, we don’t agree with Obama, but it is such a minority that “can’t wait until he’s _______ed” . Most Christians are doing exactly what you say to do . Most fair criticisms are perceived as “racist” or “hateful”, but they are just criticisms. You said you could go on and on, but you only gave us 6 comments. Sorry…there will be no civil war with Christians…we know what God has told us to do. The perception, however incorrect, is easy to swallow because we hear it all the time. We immediately think and believe that most Christians are acting this way. Sorry..don’t believe it. If you are reading this, please count how many Christians you know that are acting this way. That’s what I thought.

   LikeLike

8. I voted for McCain. What you said is right and true. Though a Conservative/Republican, I am first and foremost a citizen of the kingdom of God. Therefore, it is my duty and privilege to pray for whoever is in office.

   LikeLike

9. 2 cents from an Obama supporter, voter, Christian, and generally optimistic for the next 4 years (8 maybe), father of three young children. I understand the need for many Christians to place abortion and gay marriage central to their decision in political choices. But! For me this produces an odd detachment from the reality of the world. If a “pro-choice” president actually inacts policies that reduce the number of actual abortions over a “pro-life” president because he can have an realistic policy over sex education, institute policies that support the poor among us better than what is the “right” choice? For example Clinton had lower abortion numbers than Bush. Why do we can rail against gay marriage but not address the cancer of divorce that is destroying families in our churches? I don’t see any protesters at the local court house spewing hate at all the couples filling papers for divorce. I do not agree with Obama on all things. There will never be a candidate that does, but I am excited!

   LikeLike

10. DK and DD:

    This needs to stop or at least lose the personal stuff.

    LikeLike

11. No. Comments are moderated though, so they won’t appear immediately.

    LikeLike

12. Did you close this?

    LikeLike

13. I have prayed for President-elect Barack Obama from the day after election day. I will be praying for President Barack Obama nest week atfer he is Persident. I believe we should pray for him and his family daily as well as the Vice-President and his family.

    The President’s first name is in The Bible. I will be prying for our country.

    LikeLike

14. Yeah, I know, I should be more sanguine about being called a sellout. My bad.

    LikeLike

15. Might want to close this thread, IMonk.

    Looks like it’s turned into DaveD & DKMonroe going “DID NOT!” “DID SO!” “DID NOT!” “DID SO!” back and forth to each other.

    LikeLike

16. DaveD –

    No, I do not favor politics over religion. That has probably never been less true of me now than in the past. And please do not presume to judge my character. You know virtually nothing about me. I’ve not insulted you personally, yet you feel free to attack me personally again and again. Maybe you’re the one who needs to lay off the politics and concentrate on your religion.

    LikeLike

17. dk,

    You still seem to favor politics over religion…THAT’s where I disagree with you. The government is NOT the answer. As far as freedoms lost under McCain, maybe no new ones. He already gutted the 1st Ammendment with McCain Fiengold, he was no friend of gun owners and he called us Christians “evils in the political system”.

    However, your beloved Republicans gave us the greatest socialist movement since FDR, all that in the last 4 months.

    The Republicans have sold you out and you are happy to be sold out. You make excuses for them and continue to vote for a party that promises you what you want to hear, never does it, all the while slowly selling out the country. Get off the George Bush band wagon and actually READ the provisions of the Patriot Act. Look at the Border Patrol agents in jail that he won’t commute the sentences for but he WILL commute/pardon DRUG DEALERS!!! Look at the fact that the last 8 years have seen the biggest EXPANSION of the government in 70 years. He has nationalized the financial institutions and now, by executive fiat, has the Feds hands in the Big Three.

    We can’t withdraw our own money from a bank in whatever denomination we choose without the feds being alerted. We can’t travel to Canada without a passport. Through his “compassionate conservatism, the Feds now have their hands in some Christian charities…a power the new President WILL use if he doesn’t like what they have to say.

    I stand by my opinion of your charecter not because of abortion, but because you sell your vote and your freedoms to men who have flipped you and yours the bird for 12 years and done whatever they wanted instead. You seem to me to be like Pat Robertson who, after being personally attacked by McCain, sold out his convictions for access to power.

    DD

    LikeLike

18. “I don’t support gay “marriage.” Civil unions are fine with me. If you want to start a religion that marries people of the same gender, it’s a free country.”

    This is confusing. When you say you don’t support gay ‘marriage’, you seem to mean that you would not officiate over such a ceremony, but if some other clergyman in some other church does so, that is fine? I would characterize such a position as support for gay marriage. After all, no church has to perform any marriage it doesn’t want to. Gay or straight has nothing to do with this.

    For myself, I think the word “marriage” is used in a hopelessly tangled way. To the state it is a legal relationship conferring various rights and obligations on the marriage partners. To the church (pick any you choose to) it is a religious rite, the significance of which depends on the church in question.

    In my perfect world, these would be disentangled. There would be two distinct things: the legal status and the religious status. I really don’t care what we call these. For simplicity’s sake, we can call the legal status “civil union” and the religious status “marriage”. The state would get out of the marriage business entirely. If a couple wants the legal status, they would file the appropriate paperwork with the appropriate agency. If they want the religious status, they would go find a minister.

    I would expect that a religiously married couple would ordinarily obtain the civil union as well, but that would be their business. If the married couple chooses to skip the civil union, this would be no different legally from any other cohabitating non-civilly united couple.

    As for gay civil unions under this scheme, I really don’t see it being my business if two persons of the same sex wish to share stuff like hospital visitation or inheritance rights with one another.

    Call me a dreamer.

    LikeLike

19. “You are sinning- badly and boldly- when you publicly denigrate and lie about the President. You have no basis to do this. Surely you know that this is wrong.”

    Well, sure. But why does “about the President” need to be in there? The commandment against bearing false witness doesn’t limit itself this way.

    LikeLike

20. DaveD-

    So it turns out you agree with me. Even though you tried to disparage my character for holding the opinion I do about the legality of abortion. I didn’t miss that.

    As to the Republicans and what they did or didn’t do, I won’t go very deep into this because to defend the Republicans in today’s climate is a losing propostion, but suffice it to say that Mr. Obama will come into office with a very large majority, perhaps (I’m not sure of the numbers) a larger majority in both houses than the Republicans ever had under 8 years of Mr. Bush. You can get a whole lot more of what you want passed with a large majority than with a small one, and the Republicans had very small majorities. So if you want to brand the whole Republican party as liars and frauds because they failed to remake the universe according to the Contract With America, please take note of the political realities of the last 8 years before doing so.

    We are about to find out just how effective a President with a large majority can be, especially with a Speaker Of The House who is busily working to change House rules to favor the majority.

    And just for the record, I can’t think of a single freedom that would have been lost had John McCain won the presidency. I can think of a few we may lose during an Obama administration.

    LikeLike

21. I agree that abortion is wrong and should be illegal.

    The simple fact of the matter is the Republican party has had the Presidency for 20 of the last 32 years. It had Congress for 12 years. It had both Congress and the Presidency for 6 years. And we still have abortion. They are not going to do away with it. How many people do you know that hated McCain as a candidate, are fed up with Republicans selling us down the river, but still voted Republican because of abortion? What good is the hope of one day over turning abortion when we lose freedoms all along the way?

    So, in order to ensure freedom, maybe we should increase our efforts to decrease abortions through Crisis Pregnancy Centers, stressing adoption, and spreading the gospel . More saved women = fewer unwanted babies. Then we could vote for people who aren’t destroying the country, fast (Dems) or slow (Reps).

    This doesn’t mean when we have the chance to call our Congresscritter we should abdicate. Only that governmental actions should be secondary, not our primary modus operandi.

    DD

    LikeLike

22. DaveD-

    No, I don’t want government to do everything for me, and if that’s what you think I’m saying, than you misunderstand.

    My point is that there are certain things that I believe both of us believe it is appropriate for the government to restrain via legislation. I am sure you are not troubled by the fact the there are laws that protect your private property. If abortion is or can reasonably be demonstrated to be the willful taking of human life (as many pro-life people believe that it is) then it is appropriate for the government to restrict it via legislation as it does other egregious violations of individual rights.

    The government indeed has the power to make people die en masse. Roe v. Wade and FOCA are and will be proof of that.

    And before we get any more burning building analogies, I think it may be worthwhile to suggest that abortion is not legal in this country because people are too poor to support children. Abortion is legal because people want to have sexual relations without the burden of the natural result of such relations, i.e. children. And it’s not always the women who insist on it.

    LikeLike

23. The libs and probably most of those who post on this thread have spent eight years cra–ing on Bush. They have done everything they could to destroy the man, his presidency and this country. — Nabal the Calebite

    No, they’ve cast Bush as The Antichrist for the past eight years and his time in the White House as The Great Tribulation in all but name.

    Naturally Obama stepped into the role of the Coming Christ figure, The One who will now Descend to destroy Bush the Beast and all his works and all who bear his Mark (R) and usher in The Kingdom.

    With about as much resemblance between Obama the man and OBAMA The Myth as between George W Bush the man and Chimpy Dubya Bushitler The Myth; or between John Kennedy the man and JFK The Myth.

    I’ve even heard reports that the Big Name Netizen Obama Worsippers are starting to turn on Him as he preps for his term, revealing that their God is only another man. (Saw the same dynamic with Ross Perot in ’92 and both Huckabee and Ron Paul in ’08.) Nobody can live up to a reputation as a god; either they start believing their own Divine Right or they trigger a backlash among their former worshippers the first time they mess up.

    LikeLike

24. dkmonroe,

    If you would rather legislate against abortion than actually going out, giving your time and money to help the people involved then maybe Power means more than the commandments of Jesus: Love your neighbor. I am amused that your gut instinct is government intervention in moral areas not getting involved yourself. It’s so much easier to care if you let someone else do the work, isn’t it?

    Saying I want individuals to do the work that needs done in no way implies that I endorse the bad deeds. However, any one who has studied history knows that give the government enough power and control and people DIE EN MASSE. I’d much rather donate to a medical charity or to a food bank or to a CPC than to give the corrupt government MORE POWER.

    Reagan said it best: “The government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take it all away.”

    DD

    LikeLike

25. It’s far, far easier and comforting to just keep on repeating whatever bogeyman-like falsehoods people have about Obama (he’s the Antichrist, he’s a Muslim, he’s not a “real American”, he hates God, he loves Microsoft because he has a Zune*) than it is to actually try to get to know what Obama’s really like by reading what he’s said.

    It’s the same for any group of people who extremist Christians enjoy vilifying – gays/lesbians, atheists, Muslims, Catholics…the list goes on.

    Loving people who fall outside of your general sphere of assumptions on “acceptability” is extremely difficult, because it not only pushes people outside of their comfort zone, but it also challenges peoples’ assertions about their faith and the world around them. Which, sadly, is what a lot of Christians simply don’t want to do.

    *That last one was a bit of a gag, really. I’m just waiting for the story about iPod fans being up in arms over that…

    LikeLike

26. I take it that none of you would form an opinion on Jesus based solely on what others have said about him. Of course not, you’d read and meditate over what he has said about himself. BTW, I imagine all of you would want to hold others to that standard if they were making judgements about you.

    So I ask all of you- How many of you have read Obama’s words about himself- and meditated on them; and how many of you are getting you information from other than 1st person accounts?

    LikeLike

27. I don’t like his policies and I did not vote for him but Barack Obama is still my president and I’ll pray for his well being. Also he is an authentically charming, clever, eloquent and inspiring. These are gifts from God and it would be impious to deny them. I pray our new president will use those gifts for good and I’ll pray for his conversion, not because I believe he is Muslim , but because I believe anyone who defends abortion needs conversion because they see evil and call it good.

    LikeLike

28. Sonja,

    Please, enlighten me. Tell me where what I said is wrong.

    LikeLike

29. dkmonroe …

    I think you need to revisit a good civics course. As well as a good course in rhetoric.

    Peace unto you my sibling in Christ.

    LikeLike

30. love this thread. WWOD, the lib goes to church and says, O Lord, it’s hard to be humble, when I am perfect in every way; and I can’t bear to look in the mirror, cause I get better looking each day.

    The libs and probably most of those who post on this thread have spent eight years cra–ing on Bush. They have done everything they could to destroy the man, his presidency and this country. Me personally, I hope the great and all powerful O does well because I live in this country. I don’t like him, I am one of those poor igrant types.

    But I gotta admit, there is a place in my heart where, I will take a bit of pleasure every time he screws up, at every joke made about him, every photoshop that shows him up.

    LikeLike

31. Tell you what. Let’s strike down all the laws regarding theft. Laws don’t make people good, and the government has no business trying to legislate morality. If you care about theft, give your money and goods away to people so that they are not forced to steal from others to get what they need or want.

    If this sort of argument seems ridiculous and unhinged to you when applied to theft, but reasonable when applied to abortion, then I guess what you’re really saying is that property rights are more important and worthy of protection than are the lives of unborn children. God bless America.

    LikeLike

32. Sonja –

    This is FOCA in a nutshell, from Wikipedia:

    “The Freedom of Choice Act (H.R. 1964/S. 1173) is a bill in the 110th United States Congress which “declares that it is the policy of the United States that every woman has the fundamental right to choose to bear a child; terminate a pregnancy prior to fetal viability; or terminate a pregnancy after viability when necessary to protect her life or her health.

    Prohibits a federal, state, or local governmental entity from denying or interfering with a woman’s right to exercise such choices; or discriminating against the exercise of those rights in the regulation or provision of benefits, facilities, services, or information. Provides that such prohibition shall apply retroactively.”

    There will be no state recourse to FOCA. States will NOT have the right to make their own laws or restrict abortion in any way. It will be the end of the pro-life movement, for all intents and purposes. It will mean that tax dollars will pay for abortions, and those who have a moral problem with this can get stuffed. It means that medical facilities that do not wish to provide abortions can get stuffed. It will probably mean that people who want to become OBGYN’s but do not wish to perform abortions can get stuffed.

    If none of this concerns you, fine. But please let’s not deceive ourselves.

    LikeLike

33. “Republicans could give a rat’s hind-parts about abortion or gay marriage. They just use it to trick the so-called Christian right into throwing in their lot with them while they laugh up their sleeves at how gullible you all are.”

    True.

    And the Democrats don’t really care about ending poverty but they use it to buy votes from their side. We’ve had the “Great Society” for 40 years and FDR’s plans for 75 and yet the poverty rate has stayed STATIC for the last 40 years.

    I think it was Rich Mullins who said something to the effect that if each person is wicked, then why do we consider a government of wicked people elected by a millions of wicked people to be good? The simple fact of the matter is BOTH parties have no interest in you beyond your vote every two years.

    This also proves one thing: to all those who are waiting for the government to do something: stop abortion, feed the hungry, etc…go do what Jesus did. DO IT YOURSELF!! Join A CPC, give to a food bank and a soup kitchen, heck start a garden and donate the results. Jesus said for you (and me) to do it, not wait for Ceasar to. Relying on the government will only end badly.

    DD

    LikeLike

34. Hmmm … a coupla things.

    First, just because the feds/Congress decides to stick their nose in and pass a law, doesn’t make it their business. So, just because they’ve decided to take up FOCA, doesn’t make it right and the states may still override it with individual laws of their own, but it will be more difficult.

    Second, even if FOCA does get passed that doesn’t necessarily mean hordes of women will be driven to abortion doctors to have abortions. Do any of you realize just how traumatic it is for the mother? This is a terrible place for her and not an easy decision. The passing of a law will not necessarily impact the current abortion rate. Care, love and showing the mother honest options for keeping her baby might be the way to change the abortion rate. But then love really the way to change world as Jesus told us.

    Third … Aliasmoi said:

    A woman who already has two children under the age of five – her husband has run off with another woman. She finds out he hasn’t been paying the mortgage for months, he’s also cleaned out the bank accounts. She’s got no job. She’s got no money. She has no family she can turn to. She isn’t religious, so she has no faith community to turn to. Though let’s be honest, most churches would just SAY they’re going to pray for her and through $20 her way every once in awhile. She’s got two small children she needs to figure out how to feed and shelter, and on top of it all she’s pregnant.

    I don’t feel like I can judge that woman since I’ve never been in that position. When I’m honest about it, I’m not sure what I would do if I were in that position. Is this situation a tragedy? Absolutely. Is it murder? I really don’t think so.

    Well … whether or not it’s murder does not depend on the circumstances of the abortion. It depends on when the fetus is declared an independent life. Or upon when you or I believe it to be a life. If we believe that all abortions are murder, then this circumstance is still murder, but we might also say that these are exigent circumstances. OTOH … it’s an excellent opportunity for a congregation or group of Christians to form a safe haven for the mother to raise her growing family in. It would challenge everyone, but Jesus never told us this path was easy, just that it was narrow and straight.

    LikeLike

35. I am with Sonja on this one. (She wrote on 14 Jan 2009 at 9:19 am.) I, too, voted joyfully for Obama and am excited about his being president. I am a white female, brought up as a Catholic (but I am now an “emerging” type of Christian, I guess). I also feel a little sorry for him, because I think it is going to be very tough being president at this time. I am glad he is surrounding himself with knowledgeable people. My prayers are for his safely and success and safety for his family. (For the record, I don’t agree with him on all things.)

    Joanie D.

    LikeLike

36. Flatrocker
    “Also, the “either/or” arguments that only allow two extreme choices – the prolife village idiot or the refined issue savy sophisticate is such a manipulative trap. Argue from depth not superficiality.”

    I guess I feel justified in the argument. In 94 we elected to Congress a somewhat simple minded ex police chief who, after the election, was such a non starter and made so many nonsense statements that he was overwhelmingly thrown out the next year by someone who’s still in Congress. The former running against the big issue and the later for it. It wasn’t a trap argument. We did it and it cemented the other side for decades.

    I’ll pray for whoever is in office. But as one comedian said, “you can’t fix stupid”.

    LikeLike

37. “I understand he doesn’t suffer fools and divas gladly.”

    Oh, oh. His first foreign visit is not going to go well then. He’s meeting Stephen Harper.:^)

    I’ll pray for both of them.

    LikeLike

38. If we “Christians” truly believe “it” is just a roiling soup of forming cellular matter, then wring your hands and let’s talk about the clinical issues of abortion in the assuredness of our intellectual gnosticism.

    If however there is the possibility that divinity may be at work in the womb (or maybe even before the womb as we’ve been lead to believe), woe to us who toy with His plan.

    Also, the “either/or” arguments that only allow two extreme choices – the prolife village idiot or the refined issue savy sophisticate is such a manipulative trap. Argue from depth not superficiality.

    Nothing in this long and interesting thread alters a point made earlier – If you can’t get the issue on the holiness of life correct, how can you possibly be entrusted with the rest of it?

    When in doubt, err on the side of life – always. Unless of course we’re all just so much chemical soup. BTW, what’s on the menu today?

    iMonk, interesting that this thread wasn’t to devolve into a debate on “you know what”. Yet something keeps pulling us in that direction. hmmm?

    LikeLike

39. Don’t worry about the Messianic adoration, either. Huckabee had a funny quote that Jesus wouldn’t be dumb enough to run for president.

    That’s undoubtedly because He knows that from that position He wouldn’t be able to get much done.

    LikeLike

40. I think America has plenty of messianic nonsense in its politics on both sides of the aisle. Jesus is the Messiah, not Reagan or Obama or anyone else. Geesh. When did we all start thinking the federal government was what America is all about. They’re all a bunch of people living off the public doing almost nothing. Go join a local food pantry or something that makes a difference.

    Too much media of all kinds in our heads. Seriously. Way too much.

    LikeLike

41. What we have in Obama is the demographics of America in one person. He’s half White, obviously Black, but not of slave stock. And he’s from Chicago but was raised in Hawaii. He’s Chrisitan with an Islamic name. And he’s obviously sensitive and compassionate — concerned with the lowly from whence he came and able to fly with the lofty. He’s a good man and a demonstration in his personal history of what is possible only in America.

    What his opponents are projecting about what his administration will bring is just that — only projection, not prophecy.

    I say to you what I say to anyone who is projecting about the future from a place of fear and apprehension: Don’t worry — pray….

    LikeLike

42. Something I find just as disturbing as the anti-Obama rhetoric coming out of the Right is the messianic adoration of him by many on the Left. Remember those t-shirts that had a picture of Bush and said “not my president”? I’d like one of Obama that says, “My President. Not My Messiah.”

    LikeLike

43. lol

    I think there is plenty of gross over characterization on both sides of this issue

    LikeLike

44. The pro-life community seems to believe that it can unite around “make abortion illegal” and never deal with the specifics.

    Hear! Hear!

    The vast majority of the anti-abortion side refuses to even think about this part of the issue, much less address it. And when it is brought up there tends to be a chorus of “quit being difficult”.

    LikeLike

45. I didn’t vote for President-Elect Obama, too leftist for me. But I will pray for his decision making, his soul, and his well being.

    As far as all the tangents in this thread, let those who opinions are more important than mine respond and comment. I have nothing to contribute that would mean anything to anyone other than my Father in Heaven. And He already knows.

    LikeLike

46. iMonk-

    I’m sorry, I was trying to answer your question, not make every stupid thing a fellow Christian has said to you with the phrase, “Christian nation” tacked onto it make sense to you. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Nevertheless I do think that the Christian heritage of the U.S. is unique and important, even if it doesn’t make us Heaven On Earth.

    The work the pro-life community really has to do is to decide whether or not we REALLY BELIEVE that babies lives are important at any point before their feet are out of the birth canal. Unfortunately we seem to be in the other direction. Seems as though most people don’t feel we can have a free and just society unless people have the freedom to kill the unborn. And until we solve every other societal problem, I guess it isn’t even worth considering. Too bad.

    LikeLike

47. Imonk — “What Bible …” shows God involved in selecting political leaders? How about … John18:11
    To Pilate “…Jesus replied, ‘You would have no power over me at all if it had not been given you from above …'”

    And to the abortion issue people: Chief Justice Warren Burger, who voted with the majority in Roe v Wade was appointed by Nixon. And before him Earl Warren, who presided over what was perhaps the most liberal Court in the history of this Country was appointed by Eisenhower. Both were expected to lead conservative legal movements in this Country. The beauty of our Constitutional system is that one person can’t change things, and can’t be sure what will happen even with his best efforts. Our Constitution is like the Ark of the Covenant in that you get into trouble when you try and steer it your way.

    [MOD edited]

    LikeLike

48. Imonk
    No, that is my position. And if you really must know, I think many birth control methods are abortifcants also (and I am not even catholic!)

    I think the consistent position is – if abortion kills a person, it is murder. If you think it does not kill a person, it is not murder.

    I can, and have, voted for pro abortion politicians. I just don’t pretend what they are not.

    Perhaps some see levels of “pro life” politicians. I dont. They either are a spade, or they are not

    LikeLike

49. I simply don’t see how the term Christian nation can mean anything other than a descriptor in an almanac. When my co-worker says “We must oppose Obama because we are a Christian nation and we can’t have someone like him as President,” that’s some notion of theocracy or Christian government that seems quite different from simply distinguishing us from Hindus.

    The pro-life community seems to believe that it can unite around “make abortion illegal” and never deal with the specifics. And there will be plenty of specifics. But sure, we can all go to rallies and say we oppose abortion. I do. But I also oppose treating women who have abortions as murderers. I’m probably not alone. I’d assume the pro-life community has at least a dozen different major approaches to the entire question. I think we still have some work to do.

    I’m glad to know that in the future, churches will be insisting the President represent their values on hunger. I saw all the church response, but I’ve missed the insistence the President endorse what we do and pledge his support.

    peace

    ms

    LikeLike

50. I want to thank you for this entry, Michael. I am a Christian first and foremost, but I (gladly) voted for Barack Obama, because I believe he was a better choice for our country than John McCain (and, in my opinion, better than any of the candidates we saw from either side of the aisle, from primary season on).

    And it’s not that the abortion issue isn’t important to me — it’s that I don’t think outlawing abortion (again) is the best solution for reducing its numbers. After all, when abortions are illegal, women still have them, but then many of them die.

    I’m not going to fill up your blog comments with what I do think is the best solution, but suffice it to say I think that caring for families is need is clearly in line with scripture’s prescription for the church (cf Acts 2:42-end; Acts 6), and I can’t help that think that if we (the church) put the effort into helping families that we currently put into the Pro-Life movement, fewer women would feel like abortion the only “choice” left for them.

    At any rate, I believe President-Elect Obama is a good, thoughtful man, and I’m hoping he’s the real deal when it comes to changing how we talk about and handle divisive issues in this country. I’m tired of both sides demonizing each other. I’m tired of all the hate.

    LikeLike

51. iMonk-

    I really don’t understand your problem with my definition of “Christian nation.” Of course it means “adherence.” Of course it doesn’t necessarily mean “actually having a saving relationship with Christ.” Are you going to tell me that the term is entirely meaningless unless the “vast majority” can be proven to have a “saving relationship with God in Christ”? Allllrighteee.

    Did I say abotion should be illegal but without specific sentences and punishments? No, I did not. I merely said that I am not concerned with specifying sentences and punishments. How we as a society punish is a separate issue from whether or not we condemn.

    I answered the question on the pastoral vote.

    There are countless Christian ministries that address poverty and hunger in real and tangible ways. I’ve never been in a church that didn’t.

    LikeLike

52. The Bible mentions hunger thousands of times. Why no similar outrage? Possible reason: We’re the guilty parties and there’s no convenient “devil” to blame.>>>>

    But, Michael!!! Don’t you know God’s going to wink and nod at all our sins??? It’s all those other people he’s gonna send to hell!!!!

    LikeLike

53. How can a population be “Christian” in anything other than an “adherence?” What percentage of the American population is actually in a saving relationship with God through Christ? The vast majority? Allllrightteee.

    Illegal without specific sentences and punishments? OK, so what….a judge or jury hears the murder case and decides what to do? So we could have a thousand different sentences from execution to a fine?

    My question on the pastor was Would you vote for a pastor only on these two issues?

    The Bible mentions hunger thousands of times. Why no similar outrage? Possible reason: We’re the guilty parties and there’s no convenient “devil” to blame.

    peace

    ms

    LikeLike

54. If a home is burning down and a mother is somehow outside and her baby is inside, and she is either unable or afraid to run back inside the burning house and save the baby should we prosecute her for murder?

    A woman who already has two children under the age of five – her husband has run off with another woman. She finds out he hasn’t been paying the mortgage for months, he’s also cleaned out the bank accounts. She’s got no job. She’s got no money. She has no family she can turn to. She isn’t religious, so she has no faith community to turn to. Though let’s be honest, most churches would just SAY they’re going to pray for her and through $20 her way every once in awhile. She’s got two small children she needs to figure out how to feed and shelter, and on top of it all she’s pregnant.

    I don’t feel like I can judge that woman since I’ve never been in that position. When I’m honest about it, I’m not sure what I would do if I were in that position. Is this situation a tragedy? Absolutely. Is it murder? I really don’t think so.

    LikeLike

55. I find it funny when I meet a serious pro-lifers who are also anti-government zealots. We are going to need the mother of all nanny states (a very appropriate term) if we ever get serious about being pro-life. Federally subsidized daycare, federally subsidized adoption programs, federally mandated paid maternity leave, and shock, horror, gasp!, socialized medicine. To paraphrase Carl Sagan, “billions and billions of dollars.” Which is one of the reasons why it’ll never happen.

    LikeLike

56. Answers:

    1. I’ve never been in a position to “vote” in a pastor, but if my choices were a candidate that supports the moral teaching of the Christian faith and one who doesn’t, then I’ll take the one who does.

    2. I don’t think it”s necessary to decide what sentences and punishments to exact in order to decide that something should be illegal.

    3. Abortion and gay marriage are defended as being civil rights in our day and age. Many other things that God hates and opposes aren’t in the position of being defended in our society. I don’t see why that is difficult to understand.

    4. The concept of America as a Christian nation is not taught in Scripture and there is no “custodian” of it, but rather the Christian nature of America comes from the fact that Christianity, in one form or another, is practically endemic to American culture. It doesn’t mean that Scripture teaches it. It doesn’t mean that God demands it. It doesn’t mean that the Founders intended it. It is not a “top-down” thing, it is a “bottom-up” thing. The fact that the U.S.’s population has always been overwhelmingly Christian makes it, in that sense only, a “Christian nation.”

    LikeLike

57. By the way the person who said the GOP has used abortion and gay marriage to manipulate conservative voters like me and then none nothing is absolutely right. Anyone who still believes the rhetoric of the GOP on any social/moral issue far surpasses me in faith. I’m tired of being lied to by these big government “conservatives.”

    And to the guy upset that I put “marriage” in quotes, I don’t believe a union between people of the same gender is a marriage. My religion requires me to have another definition. You and the state can call it what you want. I’m not insulting you by saying that I don’t see a marriage when it’s not a man and a woman. I don’t particularly care to prohibit it, but I’m not going to have my faith dictated to by your preferences.

    LikeLike

58. Bill
    “Hard to pray for him? I don’t get it. Why is it hard to pray for people you disagree with? Good grief shouldn’t they be the most natural object of our prayers?”

    Because there are a lot of people, including “dedicated Christians” who would rather the federal government collapse than see him succeed as President. Even if abortions went down and gay marriage never made it to the federal level during his term. The mind set is he’s the enemy and must be destroyed.

    LikeLike

59. So the only consistent pro-life position is that doctors, girl and parents if they were involved should all be prosecuted for murder?

    This is, in your view, the pro-life position that we all have to endorse to actually be pro-life?

    LikeLike

60. 1. I might vote against someone on those two issues, but I would not vote for them solely based on those issues
    2. Yes – abortion is murder – there are consequences for any action, age/capacity may mitigate the level of response, but there is still consequence.
    3. Because we like to have safe issues to hate against – I am not gay, so it’s easy for me to be against it. Other sins – lets just not talk about them, ok?
    4. No

    LikeLike

61. Questions:

    1. Would anyone on here vote for a pastor based solely on his views on abortion and gay marriage?

    2. I really am frustrated at people who act as if all pro-lifers are on the same page regarding what exact laws they would pass. We all know that pro-lifers differ markedly in who they would prosecute for murder.

    For instance, is anyone on here prepared to say that a pro-life position must prosecute a minor female for murder if she has an abortion?

    3. Why do all the other things in scripture that God clearly hates and opposes not rise to the level of abortion and gay marriage?

    4. Is America a Christian nation? What does that mean? Where in scripture is that taught? Who officially is the custodian of this status?

    LikeLike

62. “as I walked around that neighborhood I saw about 20 more Mccain signs and not one Obama on a lawn.”

    Studies have indicated that the newer a housing development the more politically stratified it tends to be. Any many older neighborhoods with gentrification at play are trending the same way. Political diversity in neighborhoods has been declining for a while. I may be there just weren’t many Obama supporters living there.

    LikeLike

63. Aliasmoi,

    Actually, divorce wasn’t in the list. Do you ever hear outrage about adultery, child molestation, murder, lying, stealing, or gluttony? I do. And just for the record, I’m outraged about divorce as well, but I really don’t think making it illegal is realistic, so it’s not likely to be a big political issue.

    And also for the record, your statement that “Republicans could give a rat’s hind-parts about abortion or gay marriage. They just use it to trick the so-called Christian right into throwing in their lot with them while they laugh up their sleeves at how gullible you all are” is nonsense. Some Republicans DO care about those issues, some don’t, and most probably don’t care enough, but please spare me the broad-brush “you’re all a bunch of idiots unless you follow me to Obamaland” crap. One of the reasons abortion is still legal after 8 years of Bush is that Republicans DON’T create bills like the FOCA that aim to take an issue like abortion and destroy all opposition to it by fiat. These issues are much more complex than you are representing them.

    LikeLike

64. “I think his policies on many issues (abortion and gay rights are just two) will be a disaster. ”

    Interestingly the word leaking out is he wants these issues to go away for a while. They are too divisive and there’s real work to be done.

    Interesting if true. We’ll see.

    As to single issue voting I have a question. Would you vote for the village idiot who is with you on a single issue vs. the MIT grad is is against you on this single issue but with you on almost anything else?

    LikeLike

65. >…..And anyone who did not see God in this while watching the reaction of the crowd in Grant Park on election night had better check the condition of his or her own heart.

    Oh good grief.

    In what Bible do I get to read this kind of thing: God is at work in who America elects President?

    LikeLike

66. Dear Aliasmoi,

    Yes, President Bush did not make abortion illegal. (not sure that he could have, even if he had wanted to.) BUT, especially in his last days, he has made it possible for medical professionals to refuse to do abortions. That is something that my understanding of FOCA would remove. Also, under him, my tax money is NOT going to encourage abortions in 3rd world countries.

    Personally I consider those good things.

    I am concerned about our President Elect because he is inexperienced, and seems clueless that first comes jobs, preferably manufacturing, and then the economy has a better chance of recovering.

    LikeLike

67. And here’s a little factoid for the single issue voters to think on: We’ve had Bush in office for eight years. Abortion is still legal. In the last eight years more advances have been made toward gay marriage than there ever was under Clinton. Before Clinton was in office, we had a Republican in office for twelve years. Abortion is still legal.

    Republicans could give a rat’s hind-parts about abortion or gay marriage. They just use it to trick the so-called Christian right into throwing in their lot with them while they laugh up their sleeves at how gullible you all are.

    LikeLike

68. I don’t hear much outrage against it. Look at the divorce/remarriage rate in the church. Look at the number of people that there’s not nine months between the wedding day and the day the baby is born – if there’s a wedding day at all.

    LikeLike

69. Gordo, if our definition of marriage is a permanent bond between a man and a woman, it is not disrespectful to call a different bonding by a different name.

    LikeLike

70. Carolyn,

    I hear plenty of outrage against almost all those things (idol worship being the lone holdout – hard to make that case in a free society). But they aren’t political issues as such because everyone agrees that they’re bad.

    That’s the difference. It is significant.

    LikeLike

71. monk,

    I was disappointed to see you use scare quotes around the word marriage.

    You may not condone the marriages of thousands of gay & lesbian couples, but it is disrespectful and even hateful to belittle them.

    g

    LikeLike

72. Oh, for the record. Though I’m a Democrat, I am staunchly against abortion. I could not do that. I am staunchly against homosexuality and everything related to it.. But I’m notagainst the homosexual. The behaviors we’re talking about are from the same basket of evil goodies as adultery, child molestation, murder, lying, stealing,gluttony, idol worship, and so forth. So where’s the outcry against the other equally devastating and commonly practiced behaviors?

    LikeLike

73. >>Rev. Ernesto: “Why did the Republican party overwhelmingly lose the ethnic religious conservative?”
    Because they totally lied to us for 8 years! They did not put forth the values they said they would in any arena. The solid conservative tax and spend system was no where to be found, and because the republican party as it exists today is NOT conservative. R. Regan said he did not leave the democratic party it left him. well I did not leave the republicans, they left me.

    I did not vote for Pres. Elect Obama. I feel he is inexperienced and under qualified. I do not like any of his picks for anything. He is very political, more political than practical. I do not agree with his opinions about anything. I do not know his religious status, what I have heard him say about the bible was wrong and ill informed.

    I am glad he won. My black brothers and sisters have a little different attitude, and they should. I remember when JFK won, and all the
    Catholic families in my area had his picture proudly displayed.
    I am glad he won because he is an effective public speaker, something missing for a while.
    I am glad he won because the other side was failing, I think due to abandoning their basic political platform planks.
    I am glad he won because a change is sorely needed.
    I agree that God has put the people in charge of the USA. The people chose B.H. Obama, he is my president. I will not only pray for him I will support him.

    LikeLike

74. No study to back this up, but it always seems that people scream ‘abortion and gay marriage’ during the election, but post election seem a lot more concerned about taxes and the socialist boogyman. Makes me wonder what our values truely are…

    LikeLike

75. As I continue to read comments, I still get the feeling some are ‘bettin the farm’ on government to return morality to the world. Not gunna happen. Only the Gospel has that kind of authority. And I sincerely believe Sodom…I mean America…has been judged and found wanting.

    LikeLike

76. Michael,

    I am pro-life. I don’t support gay “marriage.” Civil unions are fine with me. If you want to start a religion that marries people of the same gender, it’s a free country. There. I’m on the table.

    What the heck is going on with people who are so devoted to the issues of abortion and gay marriage that they ABSOLUTELY DON’T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE?

    OK, yes there are people out there like that.

    There is clearly some hyperbole in your statement, though. That’s OK. I do it myself to make a point all the time. But I’m left wondering, then, exactly who this is aimed at. I think — and maybe I’m wrong, but I think that many of the people you have in mind are more thoughtful than you give them credit for.

    There actually aren’t all that many people out there who care about abortion and gay marriage and literally “ABSOLUTELY DON’T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE.” There are plenty of people though, who care about abortion and gay marriage and see them — abortion in particular — as not the only issue but, still, the most important.

    And if you understand where they are coming from, their view makes sense. If you consider abortion the ending of a human life, then we would have to have like (yes, I am pulling numbers out of a hat. Someone can correct my numbers. I don’t mind. I’ll be proven basically correct.) 1000 Iraqs every single year to equal the annual body count of our abortions. The AIDS epidemic would have to be like 1000 times worse than it is get into the same league. Or maybe, given its spread in Africa, it would have to be like only 100 times worse. Maybe. (But, no, sorry, regardless of what the manstream media may have told you, AIDS will just simply never get there. It just won’t.)

    So, from these guys’ point of view, they are trying to save millions of lives a year and it is frustrating to them when someone wants them to change their vote on issues that, in aggregate, don’t even add up to a tenth of that total. (The only issue I think that could trump abortion on body count is nuclear disarmament, and for good or ill, no one on either side was talking about that this go round.)

    For full disclosure, I don’t know if I would be classified pro-life or not. I don’t know about very early term abortions or preganancies resulting from assault and so forth. But my heart is with the pro-lifers and I “feel their pain.”

    But, I do agree with the main point of your post. We have a mandate to pray for our legally legitimate leaders, give them all the respect we can muster in good conscience, and we certainly shouldn’t be spreading lies about them.

    LikeLike

77. Boy, Surfnetter, you really seem to be able to see into people’s hearts. “Love, peace and gentleness” follow in Obama’a wake? God was “in the crowd”, and if we can’t accept that, our hearts are wrong? Sheesh. I thought it was people on the right who were “judgmental.” — dkmonroe

    Sounds like Surfnetter has eaten the Obama communion wafer and digested it. Obama campaigned basically on personal charisma during a period where Messiah Politics came to the forefront. And Obama fanboys can get real SCARY; remember the Children’s Choir and their “Hymn to The One”? Or all the hagiographical campaign posters and magazine covers? And the one media type gushing how “Obama is My Personal Jesus!”? Since the Sixties, we’ve been in an age of Nihilism and you can only take Nihilism so long before you go crazy, go suicidal, or look for a Saviour type, and Obama’s campaign positioned him as a Messiah figure. (The last time this happened in 1992, the Messiah figure was Ross Perot, who didn’t have the charisma to pull it off. He DID have equally-dedicated fanboys, though; both my parents were True Believer Perotistas.)

    In a way, the popular/media mythology of 2008 follows the archetypes of the Book of Revelation (but not in the way you think): After seven-eight years of Bush the Beast, here comes OBAMA in the role of the Coming Christ Figure. I don’t know how much of this was deliberate spin and how much was just Zeitgeist dynamics of 2008, Messiah Politics seems to cycle through American politics every 16-20 years or so.

    I have my doubts about the guy. He comes out of the Chicago Machine (where politics IS a dirty business), had a meteoric fast-track political career, was supported in 2008 by Dem Party Bosses as the Great Black Hope against “Her Inevitableness” and the Clinton Royal Family, and basically pulled it off by riding the above-mentioned Messiah Politics dynamic. I’m afraid that now that he has to sit down and make the jelly instead of shaking the trees, he’s going to screw up, and screw up BAD. Inexperience, ego, whatever. [MOD edited] A charismatic Messiah figure surrounded by fawning admirers has little in the way of reality checks, and THAT’s where I see the danger lies. Someone in his position and circumstances badly NEEDS somebody whispering in his ear “Remember, thou art mortal.”

    LikeLike

78. [i]This is called “Purity of Ideology”. As in the French Revolution (Citizen Robespierre’s Republique of Perfect Virtue), its imitator the Russian Revolution (Lenin, Stalin, etc), and their imitators from Hugo Chavez to Pol Pot. Purity of Ideology Uber Alles…[/i]

    Oh my goodness. Please don’t tell me that one can’t be concerned with issues as fundamental as the nature of human life and the nature of marriage without being Robespierre, Lenin, Stalin, Chavez, and Pol Pot. I don’t believe that and I really don’t think it’s a good faith argument.

    LikeLike

79. It seems so simple: love God and love your neighbor (Jesus’ example of neighbor happened to be what others would consider an enemy). I’m saddened and struck by the hate that fills so many Christians. As I come to realize just how much my young son mimics his parents, I pray that I and the Body of Christ can model Jesus’ command–love God and love others.

    Thank you for challenging us to pray . . . !

    LikeLike

80. @dkmonroe: That is so true, good point.

    LikeLike

81. Obama – bashing is wrong. So is the intense Bush derision I encounter on my black campus. It is almost like politics is replacing religion in terms of zeal. — Joe

    Looks like the USSR and its descendants weren’t the only ones to make Politics into a fundamentalist religion. No wonder most Soviet-era Russians were alcoholics; it was the only escape from 24/7/365 Political Fill-in-the-Blank.

    LikeLike

82. It does not logically follow that because Jesus was arguably more concerned with the Pharisees than the Romans, that we may not be concerned with political issues other than “hypocrisy of religious leaders.”

    This isn’t the Roman Empire. We have a government that is supposed to hear and respond to our voice, and it is our right and responsibility to make our voice known on important issues.

    LikeLike

83. Just curious, has your wife had a similar reaction at her parish? I haven’t heard any vitriol, but people at my parish (at least the ones I have talked to) are sad and a little scared, primarily because of the extreme pro-abortion voting record and statements. Prayers are intensifying, not decreasing (rosary novenas, Mass offerings and all night adoration before the inauguration). The prayers are pretty much uniformly for his conversion, that God will limit the damage he will do to the cause of life and that God will protect this nation.

    LikeLike

84. It’s like choosing a president for your company and only caring if he’s pro life and against gay marriage. If the company tanks and closes, at least the guy had good values. — IMonk

    This is called “Purity of Ideology”. As in the French Revolution (Citizen Robespierre’s Republique of Perfect Virtue), its imitator the Russian Revolution (Lenin, Stalin, etc), and their imitators from Hugo Chavez to Pol Pot. Purity of Ideology Uber Alles…

    It’s an insane position to evaluate leadership from. Sorry. This country can’t run on two issues! — IMonk

    Actually, it’s three values but the third usually stays in local-level politics (as in School Boards): Intelligent Design (TM), AKA “We Hate Evolution!”

    LikeLike

85. Flatrocker,

    You said what needed to be said.

    Thanks

    LikeLike

86. I have probably called Bush every last one of those not nice names over the past eight years numerous times. But, I did manage to get off a few prayers for the guy. Let’s face it, you’d almost HAVE to be stupid, crazy, and/or a serious ego maniac to want to be President. Whoever it is needs all the prayer they can get.

    LikeLike

87. The major political issue of the day when Jesus stepped into the role of Messiah — ie., the One to listen to — was the Roman occupation. Hundreds of Israelites were being crucified sometimes daily by them for even the hint of defiance. But if you listen to the words of the Word of God made flesh, that was very much a side issue to be tolerated and even accepted. The only ‘political” issue He actively spoke up on — and was killed for — was the hypocrisy of the religious leaders.

    Thank you for your post, Carolyn.

    LikeLike

88. Great post, imonk. I voted for Obama for many of the same reasons others have listed here, but with the full knowledge that there are no perfect choices when one votes, and certainly no anointed ones. I too am really tired of the political bigotry and the strident culture warriors drowning out the message of Jesus. As someone who grew up as an MK in a muslim country, I know what it is to pray for leaders you may not agree with, and the American church needs to learn how to do this in ernest. Underestimating the power of prayer is a sign of spiritual poverty, as is wholesale uncritical endorsement of any ruling regime. I’ve always been astonished at white evangelical support for the current administration’s implementation of policies and systems that could all too easily be used to persecute the church in unprecendented ways (denial of habeas corpus; unlimited detainment without charge; rendition; warrantless wiretapping; torture, etc.)

    LikeLike

89. @Carolyn: “seriously uninformed and blind”

    No one says one party is a RIGHTEOUS party but there are those of us, based on the issues, who think one party takes a more righteous stand on the issues than the other.

    You started out your post calling others self-righteous and ended up sounding self-righteous yourself. Is this really the way you wanted to come across?

    Just asking.

    LikeLike

90. Not a fan of Obama here. Didn’t cast a vote at all for President. Contrary to what some of my SBC buddies think, tis not a sin to not vote. By the way, I voted for every other office on the ballot. With regard to the “OBAMA IS A MUSLIM” statement, I am from Chicago and know a little more about the guy than some. IF he’s a Muslim, he’s a bad Muslim. The guy loves BACON for goodness sakes. Last name does not equal religious affiliation. Now lets pray for the guy and move on.

    LikeLike

91. My work place is where I heard most of the crazy remarks regarding Obama. The Muslim talk, he’s a terrorist, he wasn’t born in America. I just tried to ignore it. Once people’s remarks get that outlandish there’s no point in arguing with them. I think God would have us spend our time in more important ways, like winning the lost. When Jesus was asked about paying taxes, he said render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser, and unto God what is God’s. It seems to me that He didn’t care that much about politics.

    LikeLike

92. Thank you, Peaches. That needed to be said.

    LikeLike

93. Hey, let’s remember that tough, even sinful political talk comes from both the left and the right in this country. Even from Christians who are more liberal and those who are less so. Civility in discourse is not a tool to be used when your party is in power and discarded when you are feeling a little angry.
    For eight years we have heard Chimp, Moron, fascist, Idiot, Drunk and worse. Those eight years of invective do not excuse unfair untrue pejoratives when applied to a liberal democrat. But let’s not get all sanctimonious either.
    Christians of more liberal persuasions should have mirrors too.

    LikeLike

94. I think a lot of the hatred Michael mentioned in his post come from political culture and not the pulpit.

    I think turning off the talk radio might help.

    LikeLike

95. Aliasmoi: You misunderstand — as long as we don’t have gay sex or an abortion our other sins don’t matter 🙂

    DaveD: Hey, I’ll find a bunch of rednecks calling Obama a n!@@3r or a Muslim and say that’s why you voted for McCain. Not very fair is it?

    LikeLike

96. DaveD, the problem is that we don’t go against the world.

    According to BARNA surveys and Ron Syder’s book, The Scandal of The Evangelical Conscience – there is no significant difference between evangelical Christians and the world when it comes to issues of sexual morality. In some instances such as spousal abuse and adultry – we actually have a higher rate of these sins. Yet, we’re going to have the nerve to point at people outside the church and try to have legislation passed regarding their morality. Remember Paul said that adulterers and fornicators would have no part in the kingdom of heaven (1 Cor 6:9). Hebrews 13:3-5 says God will judge adulterers and fornicators. Yet, we as a group, live as if God will wink and nod at these sins while we point at homosexuals screaming, “Sinner! God will judge YOU!” We have completely forgotten that judgement will begin with the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). What we need to be doing is looking at ourselves and making sure that we are living right before the Lord before we start stressing out about what other people are doing.

    LikeLike

97. Boy, Surfnetter, you really seem to be able to see into people’s hearts. “Love, peace and gentleness” follow in Obama’a wake? God was “in the crowd”, and if we can’t accept that, our hearts are wrong? Sheesh. I thought it was people on the right who were “judgmental.”

    For my part, I’ll continue to vote for or not vote for candidates based upon where they stand on issues. To not do so would be hypocritical, as far as I’m concerned.

    LikeLike

98. I’m no even going to look up scriptures on this one. I’m just going to speak my heart! How dare we…..how dare we….how dare we…think…that we raise up presidents or bring them down. How dare we talk about black, white, red, yellow when discussing the worth of a man. HOW DARE WE suppose any one of us, individually or collectively knows more than God who made us all…and continues to sit on His throne. Do we really believe we control the destiny of America by going to the polls and casting our itty bitty vote? The problem with the comments you are hearing, IMONK, is clearly FEAR AND SELFRIGHTEOUS IGNORANCE…..not Christianity. Politics from the pulpits across this nation has perpetuated a divisive and hateful mistrust among even spiritual brethren. I don’t care that it came from the pulpits….it is not of God! Only those who are base will dare to attempt to elevate themselves on the backs of those they tear down. It’s time to call hate, backbiting, unrighteousness, and selfishness for what it really is….devilish. I DID VOTE FOR OBAMA! I AM A CHRISTIAN WHO SUPPORTS THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY. If any of you out there truly believe there is a RIGHTEOUS political party…you not only are seriously uninformed..but you are blind. Abortion and gay rights are continually assigned to those ‘liberal democrats’. Liberal yes when compared to Conservative. Liberal only means Democrats have opposing ideologies to Republicans. AND THEY DO! ‘Liberal’ is the the hateful rhetorical tag given to Democrat candidates …BY REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES. The word ‘liberal’ now is rhetorically connected with ‘public’ schools. SHAME ON YOU who participate in such unchristian jargon or attitude.

    LikeLike

99. It’s been interesting lately in my circle of friends. I actually voted for the guy – not because I was a huge supporter, but because I was tired of hearing my culture warrior friends talk about how immoral it would be to vote for a “man like that.” And to date, I’ve seen nothing that would make me rescind my vote. I know there will be things I staunchly disagree with, but he’s my President and I need to respect him and pray for him.

    I’ve been amazed by the friends of mine who just assume that I voted along with them still bringing up things like whether Obama was actually born in America. My response to that was, I’m really not sure why there’s a stipulation that the president has to be a natural born citizen in the first place, so I really could care less. That kind of knocked them back for a second.

    Engaging in conspiracy theory and trying to come up with ways to get a new president in office is a ridiculous way for Christians to waste their time here on earth. Pray. And get a life.

    LikeLike

100. Great post, Aliasmoi —

     My point about voting for the Pharisees is that if you are “Christian issue” oriented you can and will be fooled by those whose hearts are in the wrong place. Nobody who met Him followed Jesus because of where He stood on the “issues” — they were all pretty confused about that until they received the Spirit. They left all to follow Him because of who He was intrinsically.

     There are “litmus tests” we have been given. “Judge the spirit by the fruits.” And I believe that this kind of examination of Obama’s life shows that these things — love, peace, gentleness, etc. — have followed in his wake.

     And anyone who did not see God in this while watching the reaction of the crowd in Grant Park on election night had better check the condition of his or her own heart. It was as if the entire Nation was undergoing an exorcism of demons ancient and contemporary.

     LikeLike

101. Aliasmoi,

     Technically, we ALWAYS start it…simply by not going along with the world.

     It won’t be our politics that are the sole reason for it, just the excuse. Just like Jews were persecuted for being Jews; the fact that they were finacially successful just gave the Nazi’s and their supporters the excuse.

     DD

     LikeLike

102. Fr. Ernesto,

     No offense, but most of the “ethnic” folks who voted for Obama did it for one of two reasons. One, that he was black and two, because they favor socialism where money is taken from those who have it and given to those who don’t. That’s why one of his supporters was recorded in an interviews saying “Now I don’t have to worry about payin’ for gas. Obama’s gonna take care of my mortgage.”

     DD

     LikeLike

103. Is there any glory in being persecuted for our faith when we started it?

     LikeLike

104. First, let me say that if you pay any attention to history Mr. Obama’s presidency is a scary thing. Very bad things could happen very quickly.

     That being said, of course it’s our responsability to pray for the man and Congress. Pray that God gives him wisdom to do what will enable us to “live quiet and peaceable lives”. Pray for his safety because if he does get hurt things will go from iffy to flat out totalitarian in a blink of an eye.

     I believe that sometime during my life time, we will see true persecution of Christians, and probably Jews, here in America. I don’t mean the ACLU winning lawsuits either. I mean all the dark things you can imagine. (Watch “Auschwitz: Inside the Nazi State” and every time one of the Germans being interviewed says “Jew” change it to “Christian” and you hear what more and more people are saying about us.) For years, I have been telling people that if we treat Christianity as a political party/force then we should expect our enemies to treat us as a political power: something to be defeated through governmental force not through philosophy.

     DD

     LikeLike

105. Hard to pray for him? I don’t get it. Why is it hard to pray for people you disagree with? Good grief shouldn’t they be the most natural object of our prayers?

     LikeLike

106. The issue of whether or not the USA is a “Christian nation” is more complicated than isolated “soundbites” cherry-picked from the fouding fathers.

     I’m just sayin’.

     LikeLike

107. IMonk, your earlier review of Frank Schaeffer’s books is worth reading again to see why some evangelical Christianity is synonymous with hatefully poisonous, political bigotry. His more recent writings look to be a sort of penance for his being partially responsible for this kind of politicized Christianity.

     The election of Obama is now an opportunity for those of us in Christian communities such as yours to become bold in opposing and confronting directly the sort of sinful distortion of Christian faith you write of. Were Jesus on earth today, I think it would be the sort of thing that would lead him to turn the tables over.

     I’d like to imagine the Spirit would use this time of Obama’s presidency to wean us away from an idolatry of power and back toward a faith in Christ alone. If this were to happen, perhaps we would become mature enough to carefully begin wading back into political waters. But for now we need something more akin to salvation.

     LikeLike

108. >>Rev. Ernesto: “Why did the Republican party overwhelmingly lise the ethnic religious conservative?”

     I have asked myself that same question because of the Prop. 8 result. Do you think it is possible the minority wanted to vote for Obama because he is a minority?

     LikeLike

109. Thanks Dkmonroe, I didn’t know what FOCA was either.

     “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;” – Treaty of Tripoli 1796

     “But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1782

     “Because we hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, “that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence.” The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate.” – James Madison

     Christian nation my foot!

     I voted for Obama and shouted for joy when he won. I’m not going to say that I don’t care about gay marriage or abortion, but for me, there are more important issues like fighting poverty, education, women’s rights, living wages, etc. Because ultimately if you improve all of these things, abortion rates will decline.

     And, anyone who wants to debate abortion in context of voting/the past election can go to generalmayhem.yuku.com. But, I warn you, I’m not going to moderate it – except for profanity because Yuku requires it. If you can’t handle having someone else who also calls themselves Christian disagree with you and have to resort to saying they’re not saved or name calling – that says more about you and the fragility of your faith, than it does about the other person.

     LikeLike

110. Ahhh the world is turned upside down. I couldn’t agree more with the message. I have heard the same crap over and over from too many people. Now I didn’t vote for Obama, and while I hope he can live up to his claims and promises I know that we have all heard these same claims and ideas of change from past presidents. That aside what I found the most discouraging was that many of the Mccain supporters were guilty of having a plank in their eye. My mooching sister in law was whining about Obama and socialism while basically living off of her step father in laws finances. He is a democrat by the way. On Halloween we took our children to her subdivision and she had a Mccain sign on her lawn. Now the sub division had rules and one of them was no signs but she just said “the worst they can do is send me a letter to take it off and by that time the election will be over”. as I walked around that neighborhood I saw about 20 more Mccain signs and not one Obama on a lawn. So I thought it interesting that the obama supporters were at least trying to abide by the rules where the Mccainers were just blowing them off. There were several other issues, one being the internet myths, that just really bothered me about the republicans actions…. all the while criticizing Obama and Obama supporters of being the downfall of america… All I could think was maybe if some of these guys just practiced what they preached…

     LikeLike

111. IMonk

     That second post of mine is not supposed to be here; it was intended elsewhere. I am not sure how that happened. Please take it off. Thanks.

     LikeLike

112. Good post, iMonk.

     To all those posting back and forth on the supposed “issues,” I would urge you to take a look at post-election statistics, and then ask yourself some questions.

     There are a couple of statistics to which I want to draw your attention. Sen. McCain overwhelmingly lost the votes of those of us with an ethnic background. Another way to put it is that the only demographic that Sen. McCain won across the board was white people over 30 years of age. It is interesting to note that if they are under 30 they went with Sen. Obama. Christianity Today has a chart that shows that Sen. McCain won 60 some percent of all white evangelicals. He did not, however, win the ethnic evangelicals. And, please note that among Latinos and African-Americans, the number of us who are morally conservative (regarding abortion, etc.) is quite high.

     The proof that non-white conservative believers did vote for Sen. Obama was that all the defense of marriage legislation passed. The most surprising result was in California, where Proposition 8 was passed with the support of the conservative African-American vote, which had gone for Sen. Obama in the presidential race. (Note: Latinos also voted in favor of Proposition 8.) In other words, where given a choice non-white believers voted in support of Biblical morality.

     So, here is my question. Why did the Republican party overwhelmingly lose the ethnic religious conservative? When you can answer that question, you will understand why Sen. Obama won.

     That is the split that ought to concern us significantly more than the “culture wars” split. For many of us ethnic conservative Christians, the sun is not setting on Christianity in the USA, just yet. It may, however, be very well setting on “culture war” Christianity.

     Meantime, regardless of the President, we need to pray for our leaders. I would have prayed equally for McCain, Palin, Hillary, Romney, etc., etc.

     LikeLike

113. So is Obama the Pharisee or is he Jesus? I don’t understand who you’re trying to smear here.

     LikeLike

114. Most Christians — at least the ones posting here — had they lived in Jesus’s day would have voted to keep the Pharisees in power.

     Think about it.

     LikeLike

115. Sonja,

     If the FOCA is passed (and I believe Obama said it was a priority for him) then abortion will no longer be a “states rights” issue. It will be free from any restriction at the federal level, as a civil right.

     It shouldn’t be a federal issue, but it will soon be, if Obama follows through with what he promised to do.

     LikeLike

116. Bottom line: Disagree, but don’t throw shoes. Back to the prayer closet…even if it may be a bit crowded with all those shoes in there 🙂

     LikeLike

117. Okay … so I’m going to buck the trend here.

     I’m an evangelical Christian. I joyfully, gleefully and ecstatically voted for Obama. I was thrilled. I think that he will do great things for this country. I am remarkably unconcerned about his stance on civil unions or abortion, because [pause] rightfully, those are states rights issues and do not belong at the federal level. Hash those out in your local legislatures, folks and don’t rely on your president.

     Further … I did NOT vote for GWB. I was mortified when he was elected. I have lived in fear every day of his presidency. He has done more damage to our rights as citizens of this country than any other president in history. The so-called Patriot Act and Homeland Security have deprived us of many of our rights and privileges as citizens. We have engaged in acts of torture and abuse of prisoners that is internationally condemned. I had many reasons to question GWB’s public declaration of faith because of his willingness to torture, bomb and engage in illegal acts of war. Yet, I don’t question his faith because that is between him and God. If he says he had salvation experience and has an on-going relationship with Christ, I may not question that based on anything. I may question the fruit of that relationship, but I may not question the relationship itself. Throughout all of that, however, I prayed for him. I prayed for his cabinet and I prayed for his family. I have felt sorrow and sympathy for him and they as they have dealt with difficult tasks. This has not been an easy 8 years, no matter how much I have disagreed with his policies or how little I think of his decisions.

     I am thrilled that Obama is about to become president. Do I think he’s perfect for the job? No. No one is. But I think (as you stated Monk) he’s smart and he does not suffer divas. He has the ability to know how to make decisions, and he knows the constitution. He is also a bridge builder, a peace-maker. We desperately need those qualities in a leader during this time. He will help to regain some of our squandered equity on the international scene and I think he will be a good guide through the murky financial waters that we are now sailing. That’s what I look for in a leader. It goes beyond a few issues that are mostly nasty rhetoric anyway.

     LikeLike

118. Ahh, good post.

     I’m prohibited from commenting on the specific situation as A)I’m not an American nor in the US and B)I tend towards Anarchism in politics but the call to prayer, the admonition of gossip (denegrating the president/president-elect) and the care for children… it’s posts like these that encourage me.

     Shame that many of the comments have slid off topic into the policies on abortion et al. The call for respect and prayerful support are sopt on.

     Thanks for another thoughtful post.

     LikeLike

119. Peaches – you can even start working on someone elses campaign for president in 4 more years – You can participate in our democratic process and seek his replacement.

     But as you correctly point out, there is no excuse to give him honor and respect, and to pray for him (not against him), as the scripture commands as long as he is our president.

     We have no other scriptural basis for our actions. Unless we chose to deny the sufficiency of the bible for our lives.

     LikeLike

120. Excellent post.

     I do not support Obama on practically every issue he as taken a stand on. His economic policies read like excerpts from my Marx/Engle reader (second edition.) His lack of regard for the unborn and newly born is appalling. His cow-towing to the homosexuals is nauseating. The expected decline in national defense is frightening. etc. But…

     God says in His written word to pray for him. That is hard to do. I admit it. But that is exactly what I must do as well.

     ——-

     Lord, I thank you for the salvation given to me by the sacrifice of Your Son, Jesus Christ. By His blood and in His Name I come to you to lift our newly elected president up to You in obedience to what you have instructed us to do. I do not like the man holding that office. But You have willed that he hold that office. I ask, that You break his heart, mold his mind to Yours, and drive him to his knees as he leads this nation. I ask that You would keep me in a prayerful attitude and help me support Barak Obama — I am unable to do so on my own.

     Hear my prayer, my petition, my supplication, Lord. I give it to You in the Name of Jesus Christ.

     Amen.

     LikeLike

121. I didn’t vote for Obama. What I see from him so far is more disturbing than encouraging. I’ll be surprised if I vote for him in four years.
     But…there is no justification for me to express myself hatefully, to say things that are false or to not pray for him as the leader of the nation.

     I think his policies on many issues (abortion and gay rights are just two) will be a disaster. As Americans, we have the right to vote as we choose and to express our political opinions. As followers of Christ, we have to temper how we express those opinions and to never forget that our heavenly father and not Mr. Obama or Mr. Bush is in charge.

     LikeLike

122. Speaking as a Christian living in a Muslim country I can say that the Bible verses talking about our leaders have a slightly different meaning for me. When I read them they seem very obvious in their intent: Namely, that the Christian witness for Christ not be watered down with worldly concerns. We here in Middle Earth discuss often our desire that if persecution comes it not be on account of being an American, or a a free-market proponent, or even one who stands for human rights. Our desire is to proclaim Christ and him Crucified. If I am persecuted I want it to be for that- for Him- alone. That is why Paul wrote Romans 13. In the US the Church has decided that they will stand for many moral issues- and all of these are good- but if we are no longer objected to, debated with, persecuted for the name of Jesus then something has gone profoundly and biblically wrong. I think this is the heart of I-Monk’s post.

     LikeLike

123. >….I will give the man a chance

     And then what?

     I just don’t get how someone with your views believes a Christian in a Muslim country or a Hindu or atheistic country is supposed to relate to the government.

     LikeLike

124. l pray for all “leaders” whether or not they are liked or disliked, voted for or not.

     However I have serious doubts about Obama’s
     “Christian” values. His support of abortions and the abomination called Gay marriage goes against Holy Scripture in every way! Also, having set at the feet of a ranting maniac for over 20 years, listening to a steady diet of hate towards whites and God Damming America, yet claiming he never heard racism is nothing short of a lie!

     I will give the man a chance, simply because I believe God has ordained him to be our leader. His “color” has nothing to do with his ability to lead!

     His lack of experience for the highest office of the land is unnerving to me, but if God leads things will work out for the best!

     LikeLike

125. Thoughts of Mother Theresa’a struggles come to mind as you share your struggle, David. Just as Gabriel posted above, I too have been so downtrodden that I wanted to die. I was so lonely.

     As you stated, you are so very blessed to have your health and your family. Thank you God for giving us others to be Your arms, Your hands, Your smile, Your listening ear to us. He is with you, David, through those who are reaching out to you, through your family members, through all those who love you. That is God, answering you. You are so blessed to have others in your life.

     LikeLike

126. Wow, none of those kinds of comments are coming from Christians here in NH. I have heard Christians express disappointment that he was elected but no, negative personal attacks against his personhood have been uttered. Perhaps, it is because NH has become a Democratic state. Christians are now resigned to the fact that we are the minority.

     LikeLike

127. @ fishon: No, not really!

     LikeLike

128. e2c,
     You said, “…one of the reasons being that I believe single-issue voting is incredibly short-sighted and seems to me to represent an unwillingness to actually think about and deal with other issues facing our country and its people.)”
     —–e2c, if we dug deep enough, I am guessing you would be a one issue voter too. Your sensitivity threshhold hasn’t been touched yet.
     fishon

     LikeLike

129. Divine right of KINGS?

     As I remember it, my civics class taught me
     that the American government is of the people, for
     the people, by the people.

     The president is neither a messiah, or a king.
     (i already have one of those thank you very much)

     He is an employee, hired by US to carry out our agenda.
     And the inauguration is NOT a coronation either.

     I don’t think the “leader” verses apply to him.
     They apply to the American people.

     The president is charged to carry out the agenda of the
     pro-choice crowd and others as far as I can tell, and
     that is what he should do since that was the platform he
     ran on.

     If he does not do it… he gets kicked out in four years.

     As humans when we are distressed we can latch
     on the the most familiar explanations. It should not
     be excused but there are many different flavors
     of racism. Its a continuum. Many Christians who grew up
     in the south struggle with racism.

     And there are some “racists” who would go the extra mile
     to help out the “others” in need.

     We should pray for our leaders. The American people.

     And we should put our trust in Him who unites all
     of us into one people, regardless of race.

     ….Come quickly Lord Jesus.

     LikeLike

130. For some, Christianity is a political position – for this politician, against that one; for this issue, against that one; for this proposition, against that one. Vast amounts of talking, time, energy and money are invested in these causes.

     Strangely, I hear these folks talk endlessly about these issues, but never about their love for Jesus. They’re at the next pro or anti-whatever rally, but I never see them handing out blankets to the homeless, or holding the hand or a person who is dying with AIDS.

     This is the religion of politics, even if you can find a Bible verse that you think backs up your position and even if you do sit in a seat in a building on a Sunday morning that has a sign out front that includes the word “church”.

     These folks do not understand why I will not go to their church. I am part of the church – the church of Jesus Christ, not the First Church of Political Causes.

     LikeLike

131. It kind of makes me wonder where some of these folks theology is. George Bush is president and God had chosen him to lead our country and restore it to whatever it was that we were missing, but now that Obama has been elected apparently God made a mistake?!? I am no Calvinist (hyper or otherwise), but isn’t part of that whole Scriptural mandate to pray for and obey our leaders in effect because God has ordained them a la John 19:11?
     Thanks iMonk for a wonderful post and a place for discussion as well.

     LikeLike

132. If I may comment on the issue of racism, I am old enough to remember the 60’s. I lived in Chicago, which Martin Luther King described as one of the most racist cities he ever visited. It was only 25 years ago that Chicago was bitterly divided over electing a black man as mayor. We still have a way to go to overcome the sin of racial hatred. But last fall the city came together to celebrate electing a black man as president. That was unthinkable only 25 years ago.

     Exactly. To be honest, I never thought I’d see this during my lifetime. (Fwiw, I’m white, middle-aged, and was very aware of the Civil Rights movement when I was growing up… To the point where Martin Luther King, Jr. is a hero to me, along with many others in the movement – so many were ordinary folks who also “just happened” to be Christians…)

     LikeLike

133. How ironic is it that the church in America is still divided along racial lines? I know there’s a lot of racism in the anti-Obama rhetoric, and it frightens me.

     How is it that so many white American Christians are in a separate universe from their black counterparts? I cringe when I hear people talk about the “evangelical vote,” because they’re invariably being exclusive in doing so – they mean white people only.

     We have a very long way to go. I believe that Obama’s election is a huge step in the right direction.

     (FWIW, I voted for Obama – one of the reasons being that I believe single-issue voting is incredibly short-sighted and seems to me to represent an unwillingness to actually think about and deal with other issues facing our country and its people.)

     LikeLike

134. This type of behavior disturbs me as well. I didn’t vote for him, but I will pray for him. I’ll encourage him when I think he’s making great decisions and will oppose him when he isn’t. I’ll always be respectful.

     LikeLike

135. For what it’s worth, on the Catholic homeschooling groups I’m on, I haven’t seen any angry Obama-bashing. What I HAVE seen is calls to prayer, fasting, and novenas… and an especially wonderful idea of asking our parishes to have Masses said for President Obama on Inauguration Day.

     As a Catholic, I was (and am) horrified by his stance on so many issues (FOCA in particular). He has been elected by the people, however, and God has allowed him that position of power. It’s our duty to pray for him… for wisdom, good guidance, etc.

     LikeLike

136. If I may comment on the issue of racism, I am old enough to remember the 60’s. I lived in Chicago, which Martin Luther King described as one of the most racist cities he ever visited. It was only 25 years ago that Chicago was bitterly divided over electing a black man as mayor. We still have a way to go to overcome the sin of racial hatred. But last fall the city came together to celebrate electing a black man as president. That was unthinkable only 25 years ago.

     We should recognize that we have come a long, long way as a country and I am hopeful President Obama will take us further down a path away from the confrontational racial politics of the past (both political parties have played that game)and into an era of reconciliation and respect.

     I hope we can all pray for that.

     LikeLike

137. In all candor, and at the risk of criticism, I do think that his stances on those issues disqualified him as a candidate (by which I mean I don’t believe it is proper for Christians to vote for a candidate with his views in the degree to which he appears to hold them), but now that he’s been elected, Scripture, common sense, and good will demand that we pray for him and hold him in respect.

     As far as “support”, well, if he’s doing the right thing, I’ll support him in doing the right thing. And if he’s doing the wrong thing, I’ll oppose him doing the wrong thing, but not in any way that attacks his dignity as a duly elected President. I think it’s perfectly OK to oppose a sitting President if and when you think he is wrong, just not to illegally obstruct what he is doing or to defame him or cause him personal harm in any way. Frankly I think he is poised to do a lot more right things than I thought him likely to do before the election. We shall see.

     LikeLike

138. How about we shift to Obama’s major policy support of a BCS playoff. Now that’s a change I can believe in.

     Sleep well.

     LikeLike

139. that does happen without tanks in the street, that is

     LikeLike

140. It’s been my observation that that fundi’s dont get your point – more like won’t

     Scripture tells me to pray for my leaders. They are ordained of God

     Not true fundamentalists mind you – just the ones who really don’t believe in the sufficiency of scripture.

     You might think it sucks, you might hate it – but that really doesnt matter.

     We prayed for him (by name) and all our leaders at church last Sunday – and gave thanks that we live in a country we can share our faith without persecution and have a government change that does happen with tanks in the street. It’s a rare thing.

     LikeLike

141. I’m not carping about your post. I just don’t want to go to bed and get up at 6 a.m. and find a 100 post abortion war going on. The subject tends to attract posters not anywhere as reasonable as you were in your thoughtful post.

     I’m having some problems in discussions here at IM keeping on track. My job to do that. Thanks.

     peace

     ms

     LikeLike

142. “And let’s not engage in blatant sin, and then excuse it, in the name of politics.”

     and I thought I was on topic, I’ll try harder next time.

     peace

     LikeLike

143. And I won’t relax my concerns where I disagree with him either. But the Christians around me are saying that being pro-choice, etc disqualifies Obama from any support from Christians, and Christians must oppose him as President.

     Political disagreements shouldn’t be religious wars. They should be disagreements in policy. How we get to our positions will differ from person to person on both sides of the issue.

     BtW, I only mentioned my views on those issues to be straightforward. I probably asked for the wrong kind of attention by listing those issues.

     peace

     ms

     LikeLike

144. iMonk –

     In the article you aren’t talking about how anyone votes, and I have no quarrel with the article. I don’t think your comment about people’s concern (which you seem to think excessive) with abortion and gay marriage was directly related to your point about praying for and respecting an elected President. It seems to me you were raising it as a side issue.

     If your point was that people are so obsessed with abortion and gay marriage that they cannot respect Obama, then of course it’s relevant. But it’s not a person’s concern with any issue that makes them disobedient to the commands of Scripture or to plain common sense and good will. I have no chagrin about praying for and respecting Obama as President, but I’ll not relax my concern over two issues that are just about as fundamental as it gets.

     LikeLike

145. I respect you single issue voters, but I think you’re insisting that the President be a Christian or we can’t vote for him/her. I can’t agree.

     AND AGAIN….Don’t try to turn this into an abortion post. I’m going to have to turn on moderation. Please stay on topic.

     LikeLike

146. >…..how much damage the last eight years have done to Christ…

     I don’t understand how any political leader can possibly do damage to Christ. Jesus is Lord in China, India, Sudan and the U.S……no matter who we elect.

     We are far too quick to tie God’s reputation to who is in political power. No one has refused to have a relationship with God because of a politician. The problem is far deeper than that. Let’s think in Biblical categories.

     peace

     ms

     LikeLike

147. Yeah, a “Christian Nation”, given your SBC context it sounds like they forgot about the Baptist doctrine of separation of church and state. Big surprise.

     Luckily as an American in Canada I don’t have to deal with a lot of what you write about. I must say that your self censored line is something Canadians worry about. They think such people will arrange something so unfortunate.
     With that said I did preach a sermon not long after the election which I told them even though I did not vote for him, he is my president. Some sermons always need to be preached, even to remind people of what is right.

     LikeLike

148. I’ve been hearing many of the same quotes. I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard Christian people call Obama a n____, Muslim, terrorist in disguise, the anti-christ, the false prophet, etc.

     I didn’t vote for Obama, but I will pray for him, continue to encourage others to do so, and am going to re-post your post on my blog. Thanks for the clear call to repentance and prayer.

     LikeLike

149. Thank you ten times over for writing this piece. I didn’t vote for Obama either, but I agree with everything you said here, and those who claim to follow Christ yet vehemently disagree with your statements here need to do some serious soul searching.

     LikeLike

150. I can remember feeling very, very uncomfortable with the anti-Clinton rhetoric from pulpits and general church discussions from ’92-’00. Are we due for a, perhaps more vitriolic, repeat.

     I hope not.

     I know plenty of younger conservatives… who have stopped going to church because they refuse to lie along with the rest of the church about what’s actually going on.

     This was a big contributor for me… I admit.

     LikeLike

151. Indulge for a moment…

     What if a newly chosen leader is charismatic, offers a clear separation from the past and an inspring hope for the future? Also, what if this candidate proposed a novel idea that would solve a problem that has no easy solution?

     Suppose a particular part of the population is deemed to offer no discernable value and is viewed as a threat to this society’s way of life. A significant portion of the citizenry would prefer this portion of the society be dealt with and removed if possible. The new leader simply embraces a legal structure that makes it lawful to eliminate the unwanted part of the population – by killing them. Problem solved.

     Now for the eye-popper – what if the unwanted population segment is undocumented immigrants? It would be a quick end to a difficult problem wouldn’t it? Whatta ya think?

     Now back to the sane world we live in…
     No one would ever vote for or endorse such a candidate even if he possessed all the other characteristics we look for in a great leader.

     This type of “solution” would be deemed madness – excepting of course when it comes to the messy little problem of the unborn. This segment of society does fit snugly as a “part of the population deemed to offer no discernable value and viewed as a threat to society’s way of life”.

     But of course this isn’t madness, it’s all just so clinical, intellectual and convenient. And, oh ya, the charismatic new leader feels so good to us all in oh so many ways (and the unborn don’t say much anyhow). Whatta ya say we just get behind the guy and shed a few tears in gratitude for our own enlightenment?

     As for me, the surprise of surprises, I have become a single issue voter (and no I didn’t vote for the other guy either).

     A vote for life trumps all else (race included). If you can’t get that correct, how can you possibly be entrusted with the rest of it?

     And as has been powerfully stated – Those who were in favor of slavery were free. Those who are in favor of abortion are alive. That’s how oppression works.

     As one who strongly believes in the ideals of this country, Barack Obama is my President. And my prayer for him is constant – Please Lord, may he embrace the glory of life in all Your forms.

     LikeLike

152. Most evangelicals have no idea how much damage the last eight years have done to Christ because of the unthinking support given to Bush, and refuse to listen if told (partly because they live in the suburban megachurch bubble). Plenty of people think Christians are stupid and ignorant as a result of Bush (whether this is fair or not is a separate issue, but it is true). If I hear “but he’s a good Christian man” as a conversation-ender whenever any criticism of Bush’s policies come up one more time, well…
     I know plenty of younger conservatives
     (anti-abortion, gay marriage, etc) who have stopped going to church because they refuse to lie along with the rest of the church about what’s actually going on. (of course this applies to things other than politics, too).

     LikeLike

153. This thread won’t become an abortion debate btw.

     LikeLike

154. I also should say that many of the people I hear saying these things say that America is a “Christian nation.” I think that’s a mistaken and problematic idea, if not an idolatrous one.

     LikeLike

155. As I said, I’m not talking about how someone votes. I’m talking about what they say afterward.

     LikeLike

156. Whatever happened to “In God We Trust”? Maybe God’s idea of a successful presidency isn’t the same as our’s. Come to think of it, maybe His idea of success in general isn’t. Mr. Obama was legally elected, and I will pray for him, even though I didn’t vote for him, either.

     LikeLike

157. I concede that there is wisdom in not being altogether beholden to two issues, but if you were going to be a “two-issue voter”, wouldn’t abortion and marriage be two worthy issues? It’s not as though these are insignificant – what we as a society decide to do with these issues has profound consequences for the future.

     Furthermore, I don’t really see that being concerned with abortion and gay marriage really did anyone harm this election cycle – it’s not as though Obama is a fount of genius and experience held back only by his positions on gay marriage and abortion.

     LikeLike

158. I am a 2 issue guy when it comes to casting my vote. That is, if you are pro-abortion or pro-gay marriage/civil union you won’t get my vote. However, I have been teaching and will continue to teach the folks I pastor that they need to pray for President Obama and his family.

     It is a fact for myself, I don’t want to pray for him, but because of what the Bible teaches I will do it. And I can do it and mean what I pray.

     I do hope that he can help fix the economy; I pray he can lead us to victory in the war on terrorism. But I have no illusions as to what he will do on the moral issues we disagree on. And that is a tragedy, but that will have no bearing on praying for him.

     Foruntatly, I haven’t heard from Christians the ugliness that you have, Monk. However, I do not doubt that it is out there. Sadly, many of those who spew the ugliness are probably getting it from the pulpit in one form or other. Just a guess, no facts to back it up.
     fishon

     LikeLike

159. Great post iMonk, and amen.

     LikeLike

160. Obama – bashing is wrong. So is the intense Bush derision I encounter on my black campus. It is almost like politics is replacing religion in terms of zeal. You can believe almost anything, but don’t VOTE the wrong way!

     LikeLike

161. Michael, I guess it all depends on what we all define as a “successful” Presidency. Evangelicalism is behind the 8-ball, already, and Obama isn’t even inaugurated, yet.

     LikeLike

162. As a Canadian, I have never understood the tendency for American Christians to identify with one political party. In Canada government is known to be secular, and Christians vote for and support whatever party they feel has better policies. The religious beliefs of the party leaders is very seldom a concern. The current Prime Minister is (at least nominally) from the Alliance church. For years many Prime Ministers were RC. This has not really been an issue.

     Same sex marriage has been legal here for some years, and although some Christian groups still try to overturn it, life goes on. Churches are free to accept who may legally marry within their denominations as they always have. There is no political party that is anti abortion.

     In a democracy, Christians should take part and express their political feelings legally, but when all is said and done, we, Canadians, Americans, French, Dutch etc etc are citizens primarily of the Kingdom of God. Render unto Caesar (or Canadian Queen, US President etc) what is Caesar’s.

     LikeLike

163. I’m not talking about a person’s decision on whom to vote for. If a person is a one issue voter, that’s their privilege in this country. Slavery comes to mind.

     But once the election is over, we want the leader to succeed. To do all the good possible. It just amazes me the hatred that many evangelicals have.

     I didn’t say it in the post, but there’s a lot of racism in those feelings. The idea of a black man running the government has some people just tied up in knots.

     LikeLike

164. As an admitted “litmus tester”, I will say that, IMHO, a person’s view on abortion “colors” how they will view everyone and everything else around them. If a person can justify it in their own mind, I logically then say that person can justify similarly bad things elsewhere in life. Again, just my opinion.

     Even so, you are right that our litums tests probably shouldn’t be the only evaluation criteria.

     I am looking forward, and praying for, President Obama’s administration. Partly as an observer to history, partly out of curiosity (can a democrat be different than Clinton or Carter?), and partly as that sicko who can’t turn his eyes from the impending train wreck.

     LikeLike

165. Amen. Christians would do well to remember these words.

     LikeLike

166. Too bad Christians are just as broken as everyone else. If only we could live what we preached.

     LikeLike

167. I have to say this:

     I am pro-life. I don’t support gay “marriage.” Civil unions are fine with me. If you want to start a religion that marries people of the same gender, it’s a free country. There. I’m on the table.

     What the heck is going on with people who are so devoted to the issues of abortion and gay marriage that they ABSOLUTELY DON’T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE?

     They don’t care if there is an economy for their kids, don’t care if there are jobs, don’t care if there is terrorism or war or starvation or AIDS.

     It’s like choosing a president for your company and only caring if he’s pro life and against gay marriage. If the company tanks and closes, at least the guy had good values.

     It’s an insane position to evaluate leadership from. Sorry. This country can’t run on two issues!

     LikeLike

168. Thank you for saying what many Christian leaders have not bothered to explore. Whether one voted for Obama or not: would you want that job right now?

     He needs our prayers. Period.

     LikeLike

169. PS: I had an idea to print up some bumper stickers, inspired by the NRA “My President is Charlton Heston” ones from the ’90s, that would read “MY President is James Dobson!” I’ve held off because I would be meaning the statement VERY ironically … but I had a hunch my customers wouldn’t be.

     LikeLike

170. And amen, brother! I remember when I was working at a Christian radio station in November 1992 when Clinton was elected. I read 1 timothy 2:1-2 over the air — and the callers chewed me to a pulp. I dunno; maybe they’d snipped that out of THEIR Bibles …

     I didn’t vote for Obama either (mine went to Alan Keyes); but I will be praying for him and his administration — at the very least, so “we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.” That seems a worthwhile goal, regardless of which party is in power.

     LikeLike

171. Amen.

     LikeLike

172. Too many Christians have allowed their partisanship to get in the way of their Christianity. I’ve stopped bothering to tell them they’re bearing false witness whenever they spread unsubstantiated rumors about Obama. I flat out call them idolaters now; they prove it by their works of the flesh.

     LikeLike

173. Thank you for your insight and wisdom. I did not vote for the man either but I too know that as a believer I am called to pray for him. I’d like to think that God is aware of what is going on and will continue to care for this nation. I’m very clear on this. I’ll do my part and let God do His.

     LikeLike