Am I the Unbeliever?

97 thoughts on “Am I the Unbeliever?”

1. I’ve seen one or two instances of Divine intervention. I’d be reluctant to share them, because they may not look as impressive on screen as they were to me in real life. But these experiences are a tremendous help to me now that almost everyone around me is an unbeliever, and I am having serious doubts myself. Theoretical knowledge turns out to be not enough in the face of doubts, and having a personal experience, however minor, helps. One thing I can say though, is that miracles happen when you expect them the least; and they are not always the exact thing you’d expect and pray for. In my case, I prayed and asked for one way out of my situation, and what I received instead was a completely different way out.

   I have something to share in response to Treebeard’s story. Something very similar happened to me, except in my case, I wanted to marry my boyfriend of two years, and he was all for it. External circumstances however, worked against us in every way possible. Once we made arrangements to get married in a church in my hometown where a close friend of mine worked, and the wedding had to be canceled at the last minute, because the church had been robbed. A Communion chalice was stolen among other things. This is just one example of things that got in the way of him moving to my town, finding a job there, and us getting married. It took me a great deal of effort to work through every single obstacle, we’ve been married 17 years and have two amazing kids. We do NOT however have a good marriage. I think that we shortchanged ourselves, and that we both would’ve been better off with other people or alone. I think we made a mistake when we pushed with all our energy against the circumstances… I think maybe they were not merely circumstances, if you know what I mean. What’s done is done, and we have to stick with the choice we made, but I want to warn young men and women facing the same choice today. It is so easy to confuse your own infatuation with God’s will. Of course I could be a mile off on this one. Who knows? One thing for sure, Treebeard should consider himself very lucky.

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2. You re not an unbeliever. Sometimes the situation makes us skeptic and argument towards God, that mean we are not away from god. God is giving answer for our questions and doubt but it will be another person experience or situation or personal vision or dream. For example, I felt terribly about human because of growing in war zone. One day, I found an old woman carrying her own cloth bag for shopping. I saw her many times with that bag. She never use plastic bag. I asked why? She said that I like to protect the environment. I understood she give love to next generation through her lifestyle. I begin to feel there are some good people in the world, after that I knew there are lots of good people in the world. also I understand how important to protect the environment. In my viewpoint, God lives in that old woman heart

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3. For guidance in both sorting these things out, and understanding, may I recommend a book.

   “A Still, Small voice” by Fr. Benedict Groeschel

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4. Imonk and others….We’ve had quiet a discussion concerning communications between God and man. But please know that I don’t consider myself a prophet(as in Isaiah,Jeremiah)…though…I do believe one of my spiritual gifts is prophecy (Corinthians). If one is considered a ‘prophet’ while using the gift of prophecy…the office still would not be like the prophets of the Old Testament. I do know that when God teaches scripture to me by showing me a ‘video-like’ episode of the related scripture….it has tremendous effect on me. It brings my spirit to its knees. As I read Revelations, I ‘see’ it like going to the movies and watching a big screen. And as I’ve said before, I am nothing…nobody…the least of the least. God Bless. I really enjoy all the posts and comments.

   For,maybe, a deeper sense of ‘me’…I spill my guts daily at internetelias.wordpress.com (internet elias).

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5. Chrissl, In the case of the Bible prophets, the things they brought from God to the people was very hard to hear. Most were rejected and killed. ‘Beware of those who men speak well of’ is still a pretty good gage of whether one is a true shepherd or messenger of God. Christ came with a ‘sword’…not ‘peace.’ Here, in my area, few know about my experiences. Basically, only those closest to me…even believe them. The experiences belong to God. They are His to do with as He purposes. For me, the end result of all my experiences…is a deep, deep, knowing….faith. For years now…the only prayer He has allowed me to pray is ‘Father, your will be done.”

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6. One of the criteria recommended by RCC theologians in evaluating someone’s claim to be experiencing frequent visions and miracles is this: Is the person using these experiences in a way that results in attracting attention to themselves or in a lot of people telling them how wonderful they are? Or is the person free from any desire for attention, disinclined to think themselves “special” or exceptional, and continuing on the path of faith and humility?

   In my own life, I’ve certainly had experiences that I think were from God (nothing dramatic). To me, it seems that the best way to accept them is with gratitude coupled with a certain amount of honest detachment. If an amazing coincidence happens to me, my prayer tends — or at least aims –to be, “God, if this was You, thank You. If it wasn’t, I’m still grateful.”

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7. Carolyn,

   I want you to understand that I am not unsympathetic here.

   I’ve had two experiences in my life where I believe God was speaking to me in an audible thought process. Not a vision or a “voice,” but a conversation that used my own mind’s sentence construction ability to “speak.”

   One of these experiences continues on a regular basis. But here’s the difference.

   1) I really never talk about this. I mean, I have talked about it, but I will go months without talking about it.

   2) Both experiences are intensely personal, and have to do with my most personal decisions.

   3) Neither are even remotely in the context of God talking to me about anyone else but himself and me.

   4) What God says about himself simply extracts and summarizes what I already know in a more personal form.

   5) God doesn’t answer most of my questions with anything more than “trust me.”

   6) Were I- and I am speaking for me here- to claim that I was receiving messages or visions, I’d really feel like I was lying. It’s simply a dimension of prayer.

   7) The second experience is directly related to reading “The Shack,” i.e. the idea of a dynamic conversation with God rather than simply prayer to God.

   thanks for talking

   ms

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8. IMONK..Now that I have you sufficiently confused, I’m going to let you move on to something else before you stand on your head and keyboard with your toes (ha)>

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9. IMONK: When Jesus speaks..He only speaks the Word. He is the Word made flesh. (John 1:14)

   Concerning the 12th chapter 11 Corinthians: I see what you are referring to. There is no encounter that can more successfully reveal man’s weaknesses above that of encountering the Christ.

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10. I was referring to II Cor 12.

    How can a vision that is Jesus speaking not be as authoritative as scripture?

    peace

    ms

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11. Imonk: Paul seems to have had a personal vision but he does not use it in an authoritative way. He calls his use of it with the Corinthians “foolishness.”

    Preaching the crucified Christ was considered by the Greeks..foolishness. Paul said the foolishness of God is still wiser than men. Also, Paul said the unbeliever cannot receive things of God…they are just ‘foolishness’ to them. But where in Corinthians does Paul say his being struck blind by God on the Damascus road….is foolishness?

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12. I’m still wondering how your visions relate to scripture. Are they inspired in the same way scripture is inspired? Are other persons obligated to obey God by acknowledging your visions?

    Oh, Michael. I’ve not said anything to indicate that God, through me, is adding new scripture to the Word of God. Heaven forbid!

    My visions give me understanding of the one and only… already recorded …Word of God…the Bible.

    You are not supposed to understand. It has nothing to do with you. I was just responding, the best way I knew how, to the questions you asked.

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13. Carolyn,

    I’m still wondering how your visions relate to scripture. Are they inspired in the same way scripture is inspired? Are other persons obligated to obey God by acknowledging your visions?

    Paul seems to have had a personal vision but he does not use it in an authoritative way. He calls his use of it with the Corinthians “foolishness.”

    peace

    ms

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14. Pingback: Jeofurry's Jesus Journey

15. 1 John 4:1 “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God:…….”

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16. Patrick:
    By special, do you mean “private revelation”? Special revelation includes Scripture and Tradition, as well as private revelations, any revelation outside of Nature.

    Were the Church to investigate a person’s claims and find them substantiated and orthodox, they would be considered “private revelation” and given the appellation “worthy of belief”. No one, even the visionary, would be compelled to believe them de fide. In the rule of faith, private revelation comes in pretty low and almost every other rule stands in judgment against it.

    Personally, I do not want any sort of revelation, sign, wonder, stigmata, etc… Experiencing the presence of God in prayer, I think, is the limit of my aspirations. “To whom much is given, much is expected” but also “Blessed are they who have not seen yet believe”.

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17. OK, I’ve not read any of Todd Bentley’s “experience,” but if it’s really that funny, then I should. You had me rolling Michael. And I do love to laugh.

    I’ve thought about this a great deal, because as someone who is a “believer” and who believes the Bible, I figure I believe in supernatural events. I would love to have God-orchestrated supernatural experiences all the time. Maybe it would help me deal with the heaviness of life on this earth. But I don’t have them. And I’m forever asking God to help me not think of Him as some kind of magician. I think it might be easy to tip over into some wacky theology(speaking about myself, anyway). But then God can do anything. What do I know?

    I guess in “heaven” the supernatural will just be natural.

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18. Anybody who knows: does Carolyn’s vision qualify as “special revelation”?

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19. Imonk >>>> Q. Why is God speaking particularly to you? If this makes you a prophet, do you have prophetic authority and prophetic infallibility?

    So after the vision, I can prophesy to all with authority…we indeed move from death to Life. In this earthy realm, the true Christian will NEVER see death. What we call death…isn’t death. This earthly existence we call life…isn’t Life. David said in the 23rd Psalm that his walk here is…. “the valley of the shadow of death.”

    Time won’t allow me to tell the many, many experiences…and much greater…than the ones mentioned. The greatest, was seeing the supernatural power of Jesus in human flesh…and knowing, without ANY doubt, that He gave Himself, willingly, to death. The Romans could never have TAKEN Him by force…had He not permitted it. But, I can tell you that because the many things He has shown me in vision…has come to pass, I ‘know’ in my heart that the ones not yet fulfilled…will happen just as He showed me. I have seen a nearby interstate with its pavement turned to rubble. I died a painless and fear-free death at the hands of soldiers of the anti-christ (‘fear not those who can kill the body’). I have seen the earth ‘pass away’ (Rev. 21:1 “…for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away…” I saw like it was a HUGE whirlwind erase the earth away like it was chalk on a chalkboard. So I can now tell you emphatically, ….there will be a new heaven and a new earth and Rev. 21:24 “And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it…”

    CONCERNING INFALLIBILITY: Only time will tell. I know a prophet is validated as ‘of God’ if the things prophesided come to pass. I will share one troubling vison from more than twenty years ago. I saw bears…approximately twenty times taller than a house. In number they were about 5 per acre of ground. They were everywhere. They moved continually…walking with their bodies totally erect and their eyes looking straight forward. One toe of one bear could have crushed the house I was in as I watch them. Scripture teaches of the bear with teeth of iron that breaks into pieces. Those were the bears I saw. But their time was not yet. The most important thing about these bears …they were tromping American soil. I have seen 666…as they really are. But for the sake of ‘milk’ readers, it could be very upsetting.

    Visions are NOT dreams. Visions are ALIVE. You actually LIVE the event. And you never, never, forget a single experience. Romans 11:29 says God’s gifts and calling are without repentance. But, throughout my entire life, He’s given me a desire to ‘know’ deep things of God.

    I don’t see myself as a prophet. I see myself as a nobody….blessed of God to partake in the crumbs from His table.

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20. Imonk >>>> Q. Why is God speaking particularly to you? If this makes you a prophet, do you have prophetic authority and prophetic infallibility?

    I don’t know why God is speaking particularly to me. I’ve always felt in my heart it’s related to 1 Cor.2:27 “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty….”. Since my experiences began so early in my life, I, too, think its related to, “Joel 2.28 …I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters will phophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.” Concerning gifts of the spirit discussed in Corinthians, I believe mine to be a gift of knowledge…as well as the gift of Prophecy. Many of the visions give me pictorial explanations of scripture. A picture is indeed worth a 1000 words. Visions having to do with actual events…e.g. seeing my fourth-born child with God…fifteen years before he was conceived…came to pass on August 5th, 1983. In the same vision He showed me the failure of the Church in ministering to people just outside its doors. The end result was the spiritual death of those people. So I can prophesy that God is not pleased with those ‘called by His name’ who have no love for their neighbor. In a vision in third grade, I fell off a high bridge into the dark,cold waters below. Nobody saw me fall. I knew help would not come. I kept falling down, down, down..never short of breath..thinking..”I’m going to drown. And I don’t know what it will be like. When I calmly resigned myself to the inevitability of death…I calmly inhaled the water. But I felt nothing. No pain. No shortness of breath. No change had come to my physical body. Suddenly, I noticed, still falling spread eagle downward through the water…that the water was warming, becoming lighter, flowers began to appear, sunlight now is beaming through the water. By the time I floated like a feather to the bottom, there was no darkness. There was no cold. Everything was brightly lit. There was abundant and warm life everywhere. Because of the vision, I ‘KNOW’ we indeed pass from ‘death to Life.’

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21. e2c, thanks for your comment.
    One time, years after all this happened, I was driving home from work. For some reason all the frustration and bitterness of this time came back to me. So I started talking with the Lord about it, asking why I had been misled. It seemed like He had set me up to fall in love, and then given me “signs” to say that this was my future wife. I was very angry, and admittedly full of self-pity.

    Then it dawned on me. I suppose you could say I heard the Lord’s voice. For the first time I realized that I had put this sister through something very unfair. I had kept pursuing her long after she made it clear she wasn’t interested. I called her, wrote her letters, etc. And always with the feeling, which I’m sure she could pick up, “You belong to me. Some day you’ll know. The Lord has told me that you are mine. I’ll keep praying until it happens.”

    Anyway, it wasn’t until many years later, while I was praying about all this, that I realized how incredibly selfish I had been. I had been imposing my presumptions on her. If I had truly loved her (from a Christian perspective), I never would have been so demanding or controlling. Of course, I was very immature humanly and spiritually. In a way I was just doing what many people do, courting and pursuing someone despite the love being unrequited. But the ugly part of it was bringing God into it. “The Lord allowed me to fall in love with you” – that kind of thing. This put pressure on her that I assumed was from God, when it never really was. This was terribly unfair to her, and shows that my love for her was selfish and not sacrificial. All I could do, as I drove my car, was repent and tell the Lord I was sorry. And I prayed that He would bless this sister and that she would find happiness wherever she was.

    My point, e2c, is that I hear where you’re coming from. I’m sorry you went through what you did. For some reason we Christian men can be very self-deceived, and think we have the Lord’s voice, and even His authority. (Hence the reason I’m commmenting about it here, as an example of being misled by “signs and wonders.”) It’s a very dark thing, but it’s also human nature. Anyway, since I can’t apologize directly to that sister, I apologize to you for how that brother treated you. I hope the Lord can heal any wounds that remain.

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22. This is in direct response to Michael. I’ve not read any of the other responses.

    Prior to a specific event in 2001, my thinking and approach to Christian experience of signs and wonders would have been exactly as described by Michael’s comments. After this event, it’s hard for me to think of faith outside of my experience. After Paul’s Damascus road experience, could he ever think about God the same again? Was there any part of his faith that was not charged and changed by the event?

    When I spoke and wrote of faith prior to my experience, it was always in rational terms. I tried to describe the Christian faith as if it were an architectural structure. Or I might describe it in a detached and clinical manner the way a physician does the surgical procedures performed upon a living human body. I now tend to do it as if I am the body upon which the operation is taking place. It’s become more personal, and harder to see with the same clinical detachment as before.

    What is truer? Is it the operation given by the physician, or the one given by the one under the knife? Surely each is valid, if insufficient by themselves. A surgeon who operates upon their own child will likely think differently than one who has never met their patient.

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23. IMONK: Didn’t see your questions until just now, 8:48 am. I’ll take a little time for thought so I can answer you in a way matching the sincerity of your questions.

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24. This post is right on target. Faith is not knowing, and never being absolutely sure – and if someone is absolutely sure, then something is wrong. I guess Jesus speaks to some people, but not to me.

    Working with sick people over the years I have been disheartened by the false claims of good Christians who cannot accept that a miraculous healing has not occurred and that their loved one is going to instead suffer and die like our Lord did. Many times I have heard people tell what exactly the Lord is telling them He will do – usually heal them of x, Y and Z. Only one man has told me “My grace is sufficient.” Skepticism is not popular, but it is healthy. But I wonder if I were living in the time of Jesus, would I believe those stories about Jesus? More than a Thomas, I would have been a scoffer.

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25. Carolyn,

    It’s reasonable to assume that anyone claiming the kinds of experiences you report is going to have to answer some questions. Such questions are not expressions of unbelief unless your position is that people should accept anyone claiming a visionary experience of a Biblical person without question.

    If questions can’t be answered, then why should anyone except the visions as genuine?

    The pertinent questions are:

    1) Why is God speaking particularly to you? If this makes you a prophet, do you have prophetic authority and prophetic infallibility?
    2) How does these visions relate to the Bible in terms of authority?

    peace

    ms

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26. IMONK: I have shared many times and many places about hearing the voice of Elias. The Word tells me, ‘what I tell you in the ear..shout it from the rooftops.’ Also, how could I hear Elias, in an audible voice say loudly, “Prepare ye the way of the Lord, math His paths straight’….and not share it? I love all of you too much to keep something like that to myself! But…listen..I’m not stupid. Most didn’t believe the prophets …and most are not going to believe me.

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27. Carolyn,

    Couple of questions:

    1) Can your visions be wrong?

    2) How do they relate to scripture?

    peace

    ms

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28. IMONK: >>> Does Paul say in Colossians 2:16-19 that we shouldn’t listen to those who tell us about their visions?
    No. He says you shouldn’t listen to puffed up pretenders who clearly know nothing of Christ and His Truth.
    I’ve not shared any vision with you and don’t plan to do so. They are sacred…not something I discuss lightly. They are for me. They are based on the Word. They give me understanding of the Word. They have brought comfort to myself and others in times of serious crisis. They under gird me with what I need to fulfill the purpose God has call me to. They are ‘meat’. They are very serious. They are truly ‘pearls.’

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29. Hey!
    I’m not saying that miracles and signs don’t happen.
    I’m saying that most of what has been told to me first hand seems to be BS or hysteria.
    We have all we need.
    John 20:29 (New American Standard Bible)

    29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? (A)Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

    I Peter:8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

    Faith is better than sight.
    Sight is between you and the Lord.

    I’m mainly sick of the circus.
    I’ll take faith over tricks every day of the week.

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30. treebeard, just wanted to say that I appreciated your post, and I hope you’ll publish the content of it elsewhere.

    Why?

    Well, one good reason is: that I was viewed as “the One” by someone whose feelings I didn’t reciprocate. It was a very difficult situation, especially because the guy was so convinced that he’d “heard from the Lord.”

    He’s married now, to someone who really *is* a good match for him. (Which I wouldn’t – couldn’t – have been.)

    I should perhaps note that neither of us were college students at the time this happened. In fact, we were both several decades past that.

    The kind of thinking you’re talking about might be more obvious in young folks, but we can get confused (even deluded) at any age. 😉

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31. Bob, I’m glad the story resonated with you. Thanks for the compliment. I agree with you, many young people need to hear this sort of thing, so they learn not to be falsely spiritual. “God showed me that cute girl who smiled at me will be my wife!” If only it were so simple…
    I neglected to point out that this sister was attractive, talented, and very flirtatious (in a naive way). It’s no wonder that several of us thought she was “the one.” That was actually a very painful time in my life, because my love for her was not reciprocated, and I thought I was so clear that we should be together. But the Lord taught me a lot through that whole experience, for which I’m grateful.

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32. I think that a certain level of sceptisism is a healthy default. Signs and wonders are out of the ordinary by their vey definition and we know that many people have made stuff up for one reason or another. How many times have we all told a story alittle better than it happened either to make a point or to look good?

    I also don’t think that we should be worried about your friend if they are indeed telling the truth. The point of the Bible is to grasp the content and to do what is required of us in it. If someone is able to do that through another means, then good for them. Most of the characters in the Bible managed without one.

    It seems that people who study scripture a lot tend to worry when they meet peole who don’t seem to need to do that and people who have more regular supernatural interactions with God see people who’s relationship with God is heavy on the study side, they worry that they are missing something as well. It could be true in both cases, but there is not necessarily something essential missing to knowing and faithfully serving God.

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33. “Does Paul say in Colossians 2:16-19 that we shouldn’t listen to those who tell us about their visions?”

    No, he doesn’t. He’s telling us not to be bothered by legalists (judging about meat and drink) and the only-outwardly-religious folk (who insist on observing holy days, sabaths, new moons) or advocates of the downright weird (self-willed humility, worshipping angels) and to keep our eyes and minds on Christ as we grow in Him.

    Good advice.

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34. “Does Paul say in Colossians 2:16-19 that we shouldn’t listen to those who tell us about their visions?”

    If so, several books of the Bible should be ignored, most noticably Revelation. Then there’s Peter’s vision in Acts, Paul talking about his vision of heaven and his encounter with Jesus etc.

    I would certainly say if you vision conflicts with what we acknowledge as the inspired word of God then you need to chuck the vision. Also, to those who think the Pentecostal view of prophesy is new revelation for the Church…eh, not so much. At least not in any church I’ve been in. We do believe that God sometimes has things to say to specific people or local bodies about problems (think Revelation 2-?) or guidance about what to do. Sorry, the Bible just doesn’t cover “Should we buy this land now?” or “Is this job right for me?”. Think Agabus telling Paul of his trip to Jerusalem. This doesn’t mean God issues special spoken memos for every need.

    DD

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35. As someone who grew up overseas, I have a different take on this. Westerners are children of the Enlightenment, and that rational streak is very strong in our history and tradition, coloring many of our perceptions. One of the results is that we tend to the extremes on both sides of the question when it comes to signs and miracles. In short, we’re a bit schizophrenic about the whole business.

    Many people on the other side of the world don’t have this history. Muslims (and many other religions also) put great stock in miracles, signs and wonders, and I believe this is one of the reasons they figure so prominently in many Muslim conversios to Christiantity; God in His mercy and grace communicates in ways we can relate to understand.

    And there are ways to discern the legitimate from the fakes. In general, legitimate signs and wonders will be unexpected; engender humility; glorify Jesus and build his kingdom, not anyone else’s; affirm the great truths of Scripture; bring a person closer to Jesus.

    Amen to all of this, John.

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36. Does Paul say in Colossians 2:16-19 that we shouldn’t listen to those who tell us about their visions?

    Not necessarily, at least not totally, as if it were a universal prohibition – doesn’t seem like the context leans that way.

    Maybe more like – be careful about these folks who come at you who live only by visions and things on the fringe, who have no root in the Center, who is Christ. Something like that.

    Because, there are legitimate visions and prophecies and the like – things that the Holy Spirit works in the Body, for whatever reason here and there, for the building up of the same Body of Christ.

    So, we stay deeply connected to the Center, inside the boundaries, and open to God the Holy Spirit in us and in our siblings.

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37. Michael, Josh is up there talkin’ about penises again!!

    Of course, that was a bit of a rhetorical question Comrade. Reason is good, m’kaay. But it is limited, and unaided by Grace, which to us at this point, is “super-natural,” cannot grasp God. That’s kinda what I was gettin’ at. Peace to youn’s.

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38. Does Paul say in Colossians 2:16-19 that we shouldn’t listen to those who tell us about their visions?

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39. Jean…what a touching comment. ‘Peace’ is only from the heart of God. From my observations of friends of mine who have similar experiences like the early experiences of your life, it basically seems to be about physical…not spiritual healing. Christ came to redeem the soul of man….not just the ‘dusty’ physical body. Christ often asked them to ‘tell no one’ because He didn’t want to distract from His actual mission on earth, redemption of man’s soul. But, as the Word says, ‘He was moved with compassion.’ He just couldn’t help Himself. My personal visions and ‘voices’ from God…are for the purpose of equipping me with the work He has CALLED me to. I apply them to my life and they ‘do’ bring forth fruits. But even the ‘fruits’ are only usually known by those involved. Don’t let the right hand know what the left hand is doing…and all that. GOD BLESS YOU.

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40. I’m back, but this will be short. On the subject of rainbows as signs from God – the evening I was to meet my eventual husband on a blind (but chaperoned by the matchmaker) date, I was so nervous that I was on the verge of a panic attack, and ready to cancel the date. The weather was stormy and kind of tornadic, which wasn’t helping my anxiousness as I drove home from work. I prayed about it–and to not get blown to Kansas–as I drove, and as I prayed, I rounded a curve and saw a perfect rainbow, right there in front of me, in the middle of a dark and story sky. Rainbows have always had a calming effect on me, not because I believe they’re a sign for something each time, but because when I see them I remember their original purpose-a promise from God, and that God keeps his promises. So seeing it got my mind off of my fears and calmed me down.

    Do I think God hung that rainbow in the sky right at that moment just for me? Not really. But I do believe he helped me be in the right place at the right time to see it when I needed it most. And I’m really grateful that I didn’t cancel that date.

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41. Michael, I know it sounds like a complete cliche, but God is bigger than your box and bigger than my box.

    While I don’t hold with glitter and feathers and gold teeth, God could do that anytime if He wanted to. Only real things are counterfeited. No counterfeiter counterfeits a three dollar bill.

    I didn’t used to hold with tongues or gifts in operation today either. They weren’t in my box. “When that which is perfect is come” meant the completion of the written Scriptures, I was told. Now I read as “What that which is Perfect is come” and it means when the Lord returns. We have been in the church age for 2000 years now (although I’m no longer a dispensationalist) and everything that happened shortly after the beginning of the present age could happen again shortly before the end. Or anywhere in between. Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever.

    I like the last stanza of the old hymn, “The Sands of Time”:

    The Bride eyes not her garment,
    But her dear Bridegroom’s face;
    I will not gaze at glory,
    But on my King of grace.
    Not at the crown He giveth,
    But at his pierc-ed hand.
    The Lamb is all the glory
    In Immanuel’s Land.

    Maybe God has turned our boxes upside down so that we will look elsewhere for Him.

    (I must sound like a fool. I can’t help it.)

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42. Alan, to answer your questions:

    1. By what? We were enlightened by systematically investigating the world through our senses, which involved investigating the many stories and claims of supernatural events that people tend to make.

    2. To what? To the fact that faeries are not real, that witches do not steal penises, that the planets do not orbit the earth, that one cannot turn lead into gold, and so on.

    Yes, the Enlightenment principles got overzealous, but don’t knock it too much…it’s the reason you have a computer to be able to respond to this in the first place.

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43. As someone who grew up overseas, I have a different take on this. Westerners are children of the Enlightenment, and that rational streak is very strong in our history and tradition, coloring many of our perceptions. One of the results is that we tend to the extremes on both sides of the question when it comes to signs and miracles. In short, we’re a bit schizophrenic about the whole business.

    Many people on the other side of the world don’t have this history. Muslims (and many other religions also) put great stock in miracles, signs and wonders, and I believe this is one of the reasons they figure so prominently in many Muslim conversios to Christiantity; God in His mercy and grace communicates in ways we can relate to understand.

    And there are ways to discern the legitimate from the fakes. In general, legitimate signs and wonders will be unexpected; engender humility; glorify Jesus and build his kingdom, not anyone else’s; affirm the great truths of Scripture; bring a person closer to Jesus.

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44. Oh, by the way. I took your advice….started my own blog…..internetelias.wordpress.com

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45. I tend to be careful (as opposed to skeptical) of any feeling or awareness issuing from my inner core, having learned many years ago that feelings are inaccurate indicators of reality. That said, there have been times when I was later sorry I had ignored what seemed to be a prompting to do or say something at a particular moment in time.

    Concerning matters external to, but affecting my person (and life), I have had extraordinary answers to prayer (and intervention in times of extreme crisis) that I cannot describe as anything other than miraculous (in the supernatural sense). These events are also burned into my consciousness in a way that other events are not – years later, they are still vivid, even in detail. Happenings of this type have been few, but that they happened there can be no doubt.

    My theologically unsophisticated conclusion is that God is God, the sovereign of everything seen and unseen, and he can use whatever means he chooses (ordinary or extraordinary) to answer prayer, direct the believer or intervene in his/her life, according to his will and good pleasure, and ultimately, to the glory of his Name. This in no way diminishes the importance of Scripture; rather, events of this nature (when they are genuine) serve to remind us that the God of Scripture is the same God yesterday, today – and forever.

    When we pray, we should expect that our Father will respond – and then leave the means of doing so up to him instead of (unconsciously, perhaps) imposing limits on an infinite God. JMHO.

    Peace.

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46. IMONK: I love you..cuz your SO human 🙂 and SO honest!! >>>>Somehow, I sense that for all the theology I’ve imbibed, by faith and my connection with God are smaller. And while some will say that my friend and others have walked away from the Bible, I’m wondering if they have taken the Word into the Wild, where the God who surprises with signs and wonders still lives.
    Yip…the Wild….except instead of taking the Word into the Wild…the Word has taken me into the Wild. Imonk, you ‘know’ Eden happened. You ‘know’ God through the apostles healed and cast out demons. You ‘know’ Grace is real. The voices and visions I experience (I know you don’t really think I’m a ‘loon’) are all grounded in the Word. The Word has to reveal the meaning. Also, I ‘know’ His voice…like He said we would. He calls me by my name,Carolyn,just like He knew Peter’s name. But let me tell you…you may be much better off to have never had those experiences. God promised, ‘where much is given, much is required.’ These things are real because He is ALIVE. His Word is ALIVE. Experiences with Him and from Him are ALIVE. When I was very you, I asked my Mom, “Is speaking in tongues really from God?” Being a Baptist, I expected her to say, ‘No, just those Holy Rollers do that.” But that was not her answer. She simply said, “Honey, I don’t know. That has not been my experience.” So…there you go, Michael, you are not suppose to know about all that. It’s not been your experience. But, I’m prayer, if its God will, that He will BLOW YOUR MIND with His real presence. Something like, “Good morning, Michael!” Love ya lots.

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47. I, too, am skeptical when others seem to look for flash-and-dash, oops I mean signs and wonders, rather than Word. Yet, I can look back through my life and point to numerous points when the hand of God came down and interacted directly in my life — saving me from death, providing help that I thought I wasn’t going to get, and other changes/services. None of these was miraculous — every one was done through the hands of a human person, yet every one was also a direct intervention by my Creator. Funny thing is, most of the time, I wasn’t aware of what was really going on until later. Where do these experiences fit in?

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48. Imonk you expressed my thoughts exactly on this subject. I have had many friends who are into this thing, and while I confess it is arrogant for me to argue with somebody’s subjective experience since it is non-falsifiable, I recognize the ability of all fallen men to interpret events through the perspective of desire. If somebody told me that they had seen a rainbow that had appeared just for them as a sign from God, my gut reaction would be to think that, while we know the scientific causes of rainbows and could rationally assume that the rainbow could have been there apart from him/her being there to see it, it WAS still possible that God caused a miraculous intervention. But not that likely. My concern for my friend would be for them to have the discernment to tell whether they are being emotionally or spiritually led. Because we all know what dangerous trouble most of us have gotten into by being led of our emotions. Me especially.

    I personally have more experience with the leading of God in my life to be exactly AGAINST what my emotions would tend to indicate. The miracle that I experience is when God radically reverses my emotions to desire seemingly unnaturally what it is that He wants most for me.

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49. I think it would be worth studying why Jesus refused to perform signs and wonders on demand. So often the attention is taken away from Christ and placed on the signs.

    To me, it really is a question of which side of the epistomological bread you put your butter on: is ultimate truth objective, in the canon of scripture and in the sacraments, or is it subjective, in personal emotions and experience? The two are not contradictory, but one must be foundational, the other supplimental. Pardon me for digging up an illustration from “The Four Spiritual Laws”, but emotions and experiences are the caboose on the end of the train. One should not place the subjective cart in front of the objective horse.

    I don’t believe miracles died out with the apostles. I don’t see why God couldn’t perform a personal miracle through a rainbow.

    But “my hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness” (Edward Mote). If ones hope is in feelings and experiences, then it will be blown around everytime God doesn’t seem to deliver on that next miracle.

    Saint John of the Cross’ “Dark Night of the Soul” has a lot to say on the subject. Dobson’s “Emotions: Can you Trust Them?” is also another good book.

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50. Treebeard,

    True story. Sorry that it’s long:

    That was a great story. Heck, tell it again and make it longer! And contact all the Campus Crusade chapters in your state and tell them you are available for group meetings, weekend retreats, and one-on-one counseling. I’ll be your manager and we can figure out some reasonable fees to charge. There are sooooo many college weenies out there who need to hear what you said.

    Michael et al.,

    For what it’s worth, this is one facet of the central struggle I have always had in my faith. On the one hand, if there is nothing in my life that needs God as an explanation, then what basis, really, do I have for faith? But on the other hand, how far do I take that thinking before I wind up believing the blatant falsehoods of the prosperity gospel?

    Someone prays and gets healed and doesn’t die. That’s great! I’m sure it happens! But I have lived long enough now to see other people who were just as good and praying just as hard, who didn’t get healed and aren’t with us anymore. What do I do with them?

    Right now, I’m thinking that there are three sides to the Christian life. (If what I say has any validity, I’m sure it’s not original. But here goes, anyway …) The doctrinal, the moral, and the mystical. If one gets neglected, or dominates the other two, then you’ve got problems. And it’s difficult to explicitly state what the balance has to be, because as soon as you try to do that, you are putting yourself right into the doctrinal camp, at the exclusion of the other two. The balance eventually has to be “found”, not “derived”, and “lived”, not “described.” Or maybe I’m full of it. Oh well.

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51. Very interesting post Michael! I think you may be overly skeptical but that there’s a good place for skepticism when it comes to mystical claims. I’ve had what we Catholics call a “consolation”, not a vision but a clear sense of the presence of the Holy Spirit. Just once, although I’d love to experience it again. Maybe if I were stronger in the faith by myself I might not have needed it, but it helped me enormously, and yes I fully understand it may make me sound crazy to some.

    In any case, when I signed on to Christ I accepted the most incredible claim , that the Most High God loved me as I was in all my ugliness and failures. Accepting a few minor signs and wonders is easy by comparison. What’s that phrase about camels and gnats?

    Surely you don’t believe the Bible is the very last word of God to men do you? God is extraordinarily and intricately involved in His creation: every hair on my head is numbered (much easier these days) and no sparrow falls without notice. He’s active through the Church and His people and through ways and means we can’t explain.

    Not all visions are of God of course. Some are delusions, some are scams and some are from lesser evil powers. Here’s where skepticism is really important. Perhaps we can never tell for certain what is real and illusion. Faith and doubt are inseparable; only certainty removes doubt and then belief is no longer a matter of faith but of evidence. However we can know or learn through investigation whether a vision is good or not by the results or fruits. Your friend becomes closer to Christ after his vision, thus his vision bore good fruit and so I’m inclined to believe it was from God. Whether God simply tickled your friends neurons to induce a vision of the cross or He transported his soul to see it is unanswerable and irrelevant. What matters is his reclaimed life. Look at the behavior of the visionary. Are they cashing in or repenting? From that you have your answer.

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52. This is something of a struggle for me at this point in my Christian walk. I was raised in the Charismatic movement, and I have to say, “singing and praying for miracles and talking about miracles” is a pretty accurate description of my experience with that. Add in “talking about demons and demonic influence that makes people sick and/or do bad things and constantly casting them out” and you’ll hit it on the nose.

    Now I’m 35 at a point where I’m not really sure what to believe about the extent of the Holy Spirit’s personal involvement in our lives. I definitely believe He’s there, and that He can and does do miracles. I’ve had my own personal experiences with that, and so has my husband. But I’ve also watched again and again as people have claimed miracles and then lost them, or prayed and believed for them and never gotten them, and their struggles with disappointment in God, or self-flagellation over not having enough faith. Constantly in my church growing up, I’d hear a praise report one week about how someone was miraculously healed of some illness, and then a prayer request the next week for that same person’s relapse.

    Some of the conclusions I’ve come to are that 1) God does still perform miracles, signs and wonders; 2) they are tools for HIS purposes, not our own; and 3) true miracles last, and bring lasting glory to God. Nowhere in the Bible is there an example of someone losing their healing because they lacked enough faith, or for any other reason.

    My own experiences served to prepare me and my family for my dad’s sudden, violent death, and to comfort us afterwards, and has left me with an unwavering testimony to God’s peace. My husband was healed from cancer–it wasn’t a showy healing after a visit to a tent meeting or a Benny Hinn concert; just the cancer quietly going away on its own when his doctors were trying to convince him he needed a second round of chemo and radiation. This all happened 10 years before I met him, and I believe he was healed because God still had use for him. For one thing, he’s had a profound influence on my faith, inspiring me to dig deeper into scriptures and truly attempt to know God’s will, when before I was content to go through the motions and accept whatever my pastor said at face value. I’ve grown more as a Christian in the four years I’ve known my husband than I did in the previous three decades.

    So I’m skeptical when I hear about showy miracles that seem more about showing off the receiver’s great faith than about God’s glory and righteousness. I’m skeptical about 99.9% of the prophecies I hear, too, even though I believe in the gift of prophecy. Most of the ones I hear just sound more like Republican wishful thinking than anything else.

    Anyway, I’ve rambled, and I’m sorry for using your space to think out loud about this. But this discussion has been a help to me. Thank you.

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53. As a Pentecostal, I enjoy when people start taking a good hard look at what the Bible says and what that means for today. The simple question is, Does God still intervene in the World today? My answer is yes.

    I have seen a girl crippled with arthritis get healed. She left her crutches as a trophy at the altar. Two or three YEARS later I asked about her. She was still walking.

    I have prayed for $200, exactly, to pay my bills because I’m unemployed and can’t find a job. I did this at home, alone. Then a member of my church said God told him to give me some money and handed me $200.

    I know missionaries in Africa who would tell you stories most of you wouldn’t believe.

    Here in the West, we so deeply doubt the existence of miracles or make the definition so broad as to be meaningless (creation is a miracle, changed lives are miracles). We lack faith, even actively have faith against seeing God move in signs and wonders. Then we don’t see signs and wonders and point to that lack as proof of the rightness of our unbelief. It’s a never ending cycle. I don’t believe in miracles because I don’t see the miracles that I don’t believe in.

    Conversely, you do have those whose god IS the signs and wonders. They will accept anything told to them if something even close to a miracle happens. I think most of us have heard of someone being deathly ill and, after prayer, recovering…sometimes instantly. More than once I have heard this refered to as “raising the dead” even though no one was dead yet….because a healing isn’t good enough???

    Let’s call fake or exaggerated what it is but let’s also give credit where credit is due.

    DD

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54. Michael, thanks for modeling rigorous self-examination for us. When it comes to the entirety of what Scripture has to say, we are all unbelievers (in action if not in thought) in one way or another.

    I have personally experienced charismata and also personally experienced the abuse that comes from people and churches who over-empasize the same. When something strange happens that could be characterized as a sign or wonder, I put it through this filter: 1) is it consistent with Scripture 2) does it glorify God, and 3 (from 1 Corinthians) has it been given and used for the benefit of others?

    Because so many prosperity preachers also use the stage tricks of charismata to fleece their victims, it is understandable to be very wary. Acting like a particular gift is prima facie evidence of salvation is a non-starter too, as is the over-emphasis of a sign as against the One the sign is pointing to.

    But I cannot deny that even today God sometimes chooses to bless His people in this way. It is kind of like romantic love- we can let the horror stories stop us from ever pursuing love and we will never get hurt, but if we do we have to know we are also forgoing a chance at something wonderful.

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55. Is Todd Bentley the person who recently mentioned on BHT — one associated with glitter and oil? — Cindy

    Go onto YouTube and search for “Todd Bentley” or “Lakeland Revival”.

    He’s the bald bearded guy who looks like he should be in the Pro Wrestling ring and tatted like a Yakuza who caused all that media stir a few months ago in Lakeland, Florida (before he went down in a sex scandal). Claimed to have visited Heaven (in Percy Collet detail), raised the dead, had gold dust and angel feathers drift down from Heaven. Best known for prophesying people up onstage for “healing” and kicking them in the nuts to make sure they went down “slain in the Spirit”. (No confirmed healings, despite the after-kick testimonies.) Claimed to channel a personal angel named Emma who was his direct line to God. And a female sidekick known as “Shaking Stacy” because she’d work herself into such a frenzy her head would whip about like something from The Exorcist.

    Had followers who BE-LEEEVED everything he did (at least until the sex scandal) Was Of God and Lakeland was a Great End Times Outpouring Revival — Touch Not Mine Anointed! Do My Prophet No Harm! And a LOT of opposition who KNEW He Was Demon-posseseed (and quoted chapter-and-verse to prove it).

    My writing partner (a burned-out preacher with professional stage magic experience) checked out some of Tatted Todd’s footage on YouTube. His conclusion? Not God’s Anointed, not Demon-possessed, but a con man working a crowd into a frenzy using stage mentalist techniques and tricks.

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56. I look upon bona-fide miracles as a subset of paranormal phenomena; they happen, but they are very rare. (And like a lot of other paranormal phenomena, they almost never happen to those who specifically seek them.)

    And just like people read the face of the Virgin Mary into the scorch-stains on a tortilla or alien motherships into any unusual light in the sky, a lot of what are not true miracles get mistaken for them. Then a lot of wishful thinking gets mixed in, and there’s always a con man waiting to cash in on the mugus.

    I have never experienced a recognizable in-your-face miracle. I’ve had two or three strange experiences that could have been (mostly coincidence futzes), but nothing obvious or blatant.

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57. Interesting stuff Michael. I do think there is a bit of “unbeliever” there. Not that you are trying to not believe God or what He can do, but just that for whatever reason, you have a hard time in certain areas. It’s fairly common in this day and time. We are cursed by the Enlightenment. Were we all that “enlightened”? Well, by what? To what? I’m not sure.

    This seems to be common too, but you go very quickly from some sign from God or “wonder” here, to Todd Bentley over there. A lot of people see these things as necessarily synonymous. I don’t think that’s the case. I spent quite a few years deep in the bowels of independent Charismata, and you’re right, there are some crazy folk in there. There just are. They have been driven crazy by not having enough of a healthy boundary around them. That would really take too long to unpack, but basically, if anything goes and everything someone says is God, IS God, then you’ve got trouble.

    BUT – we can’t be despising prophecies because of all the ignorance. Or any of the other legitimate ways God may be working in our midst, in our hearts and minds, bodies, etc. In this vein, I have often said that I was a “post-charismatic” because I don’t like the over-emphasis on gifts as a label. But, that I technically still am “charismatic” because I haven’t jettisoned those things of the Spirit that are often lumped into that camp. I believe God wants us to have a very intimate and personal relationship with Him – that He wants to interact with us on an everyday, real level – lead and guide us, talk to us, etc. And not only by way of us reading His book.

    The Scriptures are given to us as part of that boundary I was talking about earlier. So, I believe, is the Tradition of the Church. We have that skeletal structure that keeps us standing upright and not behaving like jelly. But God’s not just after an intellectual connection with us, such that we just read His Word and believe the right things, or even then, do the right things. He’s after recapturing a living, dynamic, holistic relationship with us – the kind of relationship we read about when we read the Scriptures. That wasn’t just for them, so they’d have cool stories to tell, but for us too, because that’s just part of the deal.

    Our relationships with one another, especially with those we are closest to, aren’t totally logical, aren’t always based on empirical data. We grow in knowledge of them, and in our relationship with them, through experiencing them, by interacting with them on a daily basis. We can have this, to an extent, with God as well. And more and more as we are transformed into the kind of people who are able to have this kind of relationship.

    It’s hard for us to be open to things that don’t make sense. We’re not programmed for that. But we can be re-programmed for it. We have to be. The Kingdom Life we have been introduced to, initiated into, is a different order of life than what we have known.

    Just an afterthought? Where did your “calling” to preach come from? How did you “hear” that? How did you “know” it was from God? It wasn’t from the Bible – not to you specifically, and not to others. I know I don’t have to convince you of that – I’m just using that as an example of what I’m talking about. Anyway, gone on too long as usual. Once again, interesting stuff – needed questions. Peace to you.

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58. (Chris) I believe what Michael is saying is that the Biblical narratives are by nature selective, and so are not meant to be taken as normative in a common sense.

    Thank you, Chris.

    Also, please disregard my question #2, above. I remember Todd Bentley. The glitter and oil person I was thinking of can be found here.

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59. My two cents:

    I think what makes us skeptical is the great number of miracles that turn out to be hoaxes, Christians who insist that such-and-so anti-biblical doctrine is true because of a sign and/or wonder, surefire experiences that end up leading us in precisely the wrong way, and so on.

    How can you not be skeptical?

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60. Imonk:
    “I know that the Christian worldview is open to the intervention of God. I’m not a deist. I pray for God’s intervention all the time. I’ve experienced it. My family was once awakened from a sound sleep..”

    This is different from the rainbow how?

    “And she believes a rainbow appeared out of nowhere, just for her.”
    And you believe in a supernatural smoke detector? I’m missing the difference. The rainbow is nice, your story is life saving.

    BTW, check your batteries, don’t tempt God.

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61. My friend’s journey isn’t an exposition of Romans. It’s a discovery that God is out there, beckoning her own to another chapter of loving God and loving neighbor. She’s sane as a judge. And she believes a rainbow appeared out of nowhere, just for her.

    This is said respectfully. If someone came up to you having read one of the Puritans or Jonathan Edwards and seemed to have been powerfully shaped by that spiritual tradition you would be able to praise the positive and discern the negative (see your essay on Wretched Urgency).

    Do you feel unable to comment on your friend because such experiences are outside your immediate ambit? I would suggest that general principles could still be used to critique/comment on spirituality of this sort.

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62. True story. Sorry that it’s long:

    When I was in college, after I got saved, I fell in love with a Christian sister. I was reluctant to pursue her without a “say-so” from the Lord. So I prayed for the Lord to give me a sign. Sure enough, He did. I prayed again, and another sign came. (By sign I mean a coincidence that seemed nearly miraculous.) Eventually I worked up the courage to tell her my feelings for her. She was kind, but made it clear she wasn’t interested.

    So I prayed about it more, and was given the clear indication from the Lord to be patient. Eventually the time would come when He would put us together. And there were more signs, as well as inward leadings that she was the one, and that one day my love for her would be reciprocated and we would be married. Praise the Lord!

    This went on for years, after we both graduated from college. Despite being in different cities, the Lord would give me signs, and give me an inward sense of peace when I would pray for her. My own interpretation of His speaking to me was “just be patient, the time will come.”

    Eventually I found out that she was going to do something that would mean we could not be together. So I contacted her, and found out yet again that she was not interested. It was clear to me then she never would be. I was devastated, and even felt like my faith had been irreparably damaged. What about all the answered prayers? What about all the signs? What about all the inward speakings?

    Shortly afterwards, I found out that a different Christian sister was interested in me. We began dating, and now she is my wife. We are happily married, and we match each other and compliment each other in ways that could only have been designed by the Lord. I’m certain that if I had married that other sister, it would have been a disaster.

    And over the years, I have learned of three other Christian brothers who went through the same thing. All three of them at different times believed that the same exact sister I was once in love with was the one that God had prepared for them. They all went through the exact same experience – prayers, signs, leadings, confirmations, and then disillusionment. All three of those brothers are now married (not to that sister). Sadly, that sister remains unmarried.

    So I learned a lesson: Never confuse your own subjective feelings and emotions for the Lord’s leading. Never look at a coincidence (that you are longing for) and assume that it is a miracle from God.

    But on the other hand, my love and infatuation with that sister preserved me, so that when the right time came I could begin a relationship with my future wife. Perhaps the Lord was working those things out after all. Who knows?

    But I’m very wary of signs and wonders personally. I believe others can experience them and get a lot out of them. But I do not trust my own discernment, and have vowed never to be so subjective again. Our emotions are not spiritual or trustworthy.

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63. Above, are you saying that people (today) over-emphasize and exaggerate the the number and frequency of miracles actually recorded in the Bible? If not, what do you mean, there? Who or what is doing the exaggerating? I hope my question is clear.

    I believe what Michael is saying is that the Biblical narratives are by nature selective, and so are not meant to be taken as normative in a common sense.

    As someone else said above, miracles are not the norm, if they were we would call them something else, like “Tuesday”. 🙂

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64. And even with the action of the Spirit to speak to individual spirits, there are two reactions:

    1. I just heard the Voice of God.

    2. It thundered.

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65. Rob — Who would I be to say to anyone that God didn’t send the hawk to tell your friend to buy those shoes. I might be more likely to question it if your friend then said that a goat in a turban told him to throw his shoes at the President.

    But either way someone else’s supernatural experience related to me firsthand verbally or third or fourth hand ornately bound and bundled in Scripture has no real power in and of itself to convince anyone of the intervention of the Transcendent Godhead in the lives of individual human beings. Paul talks repeatedly of the Holy Spirit bearing witness to the Truth. It wasn’t until the Spirit was given that the Apostles understood anything that Jesus did or said. The “Spirit bearing witness with our spirit” is the individual convincing epiphany — the gift of Faith, moment of clarity, etc. — that leads anyone to actually believe anything.

    Otherwise, I’m inclined to ask what a hawk knows about shoes, anyway ….

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66. (Michael) Now I won’t argue with you that there’s a problem with me in this area. (If you haven’t noticed.)

    Now, Michael you’re making me want to send you off to study I Corinthians 12.

    Questions:

    (Michael) While I would stand by my frequent assertion that the number and frequency of miracles in the Bible is generally over-emphasized and exaggerated, I’m all signed up to affirm that the Bible is a record of miracles, signs and wonders.

    1. Above, are you saying that people (today) over-emphasize and exaggerate the the number and frequency of miracles actually recorded in the Bible? If not, what do you mean, there? Who or what is doing the exaggerating? I hope my question is clear.

    2. Is Todd Bentley the person who recently mentioned on BHT — one associated with glitter and oil? Usually, I’d look up something like this for myself, but if it is him, I don’t want to see more. I was disturbed by what I watched, and by some of my own thoughts while watching.

    (Patrick) After a stint in the Vineyard, I am pretty skeptical concerning most of that stuff. I consider all of the flamboyant televangelists to be obvious charlatans and scammers.

    3. Patrick, does it ever scare you when you find yourself thinking that way? I ask, because that’s my default setting too, but then I wonder if/when/how I’m denying any true experiences of the divine, and if in doing so — if I’m blaspheming the Holy Spirit or coming too close to doing so.

    4. The few experiences I have had have been quiet ones, but very real to me. Michael, I don’t know if you’re interested in seeing the topic go that way, and I don’t want to overstep. What’s okay with you, as far as this conversation goes?

    Commentary

    (K.W.) I would be a lot more particular about my signs and wonders than your friend is. When you pray, and immediately afterward see a rainbow, that is not a sign. That’s an omen, and omens aren’t God, but augury, superstition, and baloney. It is only a sign when God assigns the interpretation to nature—like the original purpose of rainbows (Gen 8:13) or something out of the ordinary, like a baby in a manger. (Luke 2:12) If God told her, “Here’s a sign to confirm My promise: You’ll see a rainbow in a cloudless sky,” then we’re talking a sign. Otherwise we’re talking about someone who wants a sign so badly that she’s making ‘em up, and drawing her hope from fabrications instead of God. God forbid she decides to take drastic steps based on self-made “signs.”
    

    K.W., although I’m not someone who has had many supernatural experiences, and know what you’re saying might be right some of the time, I think there’s a more charitable way of looking at these things, at least sometimes. I suggest this because of the way Michael described his friend: “Scripture isn’t absent, but my friend’s journey is one where experience is leading and scripture is following. My friend is immensely happy, by the way, and closer to Jesus than ever before.”

    In other words, it seems to me that Michael, who seems to me to have been gifted with knowledge and possibly discernment, is saying he recognizes the fruit in his friend’s life.

    I know a couple of (good, faithful) people like the friend Michael describes, and I can’t deny their fruit even though I experience God quite differently than they do. Now, they might choose a word like sign to explain their experiences, but they aren’t necessarily giving the word the conscious weight you seem to be. Let’s take a hypothetical person who is prayerfully going through something. Seeing a rainbow may have meaning — not in a cooked up way (or in a kooked up way), but simply because she’s hidden the Word in her heart, and when she sees a rainbow, it’s a profound reminder of God’s faithfulness. That may be the answer she needed to hear (regardless of the one she wanted to hear).

    I don’t know if this is making any sense, so I’ll stop now.

    [Okay, apparently I can’t let it go at that because I’m a terrible pedant. The rainbow given as a sign of the Noahide covenant appears in Genesis 9:13, and it’s set in the clouds, not a cloudless sky. Really done, now. Carry on.]

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67. But sometimes it is what we want to see in hard situations

    My wife on Christmas went to the hospital with a heart attack (although not diagnosed at the time). We went home.

    My daughter, the next day, went on a long trip to a youth conference, which she never would of done if she thought her mom had just had a heart attack. She spent 3 days sharing life and witness to an attender of her youth group who is not a believer.

    Now, did they misdiagnose the heart attack because that is fairly common to do with 46 year old women who have no reason to be having one, or was it because my daughter had an appointment set by God to witness to a non believer?

    I would like to think the later

    David

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68. I guess I am just too cynical to see it.
    first I agree with Patrick that I consider all of the TV guys and girls to be hucksters.
    I have had what I beleive was divine intervention in my life but it was pretty quiet and known only to me.
    I wearied of friends telling me that things like,”at just that moment a hawk flew overhead and knew God wanted me to buy new shoes.”
    Of course I’m being over the top there but you get the point. The Hawk was going to be there anyway.
    BTW this all applies to setting out fleeces as well.

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69. For a brief time I attended a Vineyard. There congregation members spoke of their time in Africa, and how it was no trouble getting the locals to believe in the supernatural, because with their orientation in witchcraft and voodoo, they saw paranormal happenings everyday. Thus when the Christians came in, signs and wonders flowed more freely because the people had an expectation that they could happen. In contrast, in the West, even believers were so trained in a skeptical mindset, that it was harder for miracles to take place and be accepted as such. In a bit of irony, the pastor at this particualar Vineyard was trying to downplay signs and wonders because of recent abuses of them among Vineyard churches.

    At the church I attend now, the leaders have stated that they do believe that all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for us today. And that’s it. It’s all kept in theory. They seem to be so afraid of abuses that they never let the authentic take place, at least not that I have ever seen (although it was revealed to me, early on, by what I would say are amazing means, that this was to be my church.) So God is not necessairily bound by the fears of leaders.

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70. I have had many miracles in my life. I’m with St. Paul in that I was knocked off my “horse” — albeit an atheist steed — as a young man and the Lord showed me who He was. That changed my life, but the mere storytelling can convince no one without a real demonstration that can be witnessed in my own behavior and attitude.

    What I believe about these things was in the daily Gospel of the RC Church today. Happened to overhear it as the local Catholic TV channel was on while I was still dozing this morning. It is from the first chapter of Mark when He healed a leper and then “warned him sternly” that he “see that you tell no one anything, but go and show yourself to the priests and offer for your cleansing what Moses described; that will be proof for them.” Of course the man went off and told about the miracle to everybody who would stand still long enough to listen. Because of this Jesus could no longer go into any town for the crowds that came for miracles. And the priests didn’t get the proper message, which would have been that, although Jesus had completely healed the man, declaring him “made clean,” He still sent him to them to follow the required priestly “cleansing” Moses prescribed.

    Sounds to me that what Jesus wanted, at least in this case, is the balance you’re talking about.

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71. Even though I’ve had some very unusual spiritual things happen, I tend to be skeptical myself. If a person is spooked by the experience and tends to keep it private, I’m more inclined to think that it is probaby from God. If it encourages people toward loving God and loving people, then probably from God.

    If it points more toward a human, then chances are that it isn’t from God. If something that is said, contradicts the Bible, then it probably isn’t from Him.

    It is too easy to be looking for things and to find only things that are going in the direction that you want them to.

    In cases like these, I am very comfortable with the position that the Catholic Church takes. All of them, even the well documented ones such as Lourdes, are considered private revelations. That means that no one is obligated to believe in them.

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72. I’ll just chime in to say I’m skeptical of the whole thing, when good people continue to die too early and children bear the sins of their fathers, and a million other things overbalance the minute few, subjective “miracles” of experience. I just don’t buy it.

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73. Nice thoughts, iMonk. I think, perhaps, that it’s the Catholic Theology of worship that opens your friend up more to see “signs and wonders.” When you view the gathering together as stepping into the throne-room scenes in Revelation it tends to change one’s perspective on life in general.

    I’m with you, it took me years to get over the abuses of the TBN-version of “signs and wonders, and that was even with my having a Theology Prof who was both a Patristics scholar and Charismatic, High Church, Anglican. While I recovered, I experienced just enough of “those moments” that kept my wonder alive – I’m still hugely skeptical, but I’ve had moments where the world seems to go still and the Holy Spirit says, “Shut up and listen.” Ironically, being a baptist pastor, I’ve gone the opposite route – these moments are being brought back into worship, rather springing out of worship. We Protestants do things backwards.

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74. Addendum: Having said the above, I personally know of several Muslims who converted to Christianity because of a vision of Jesus who revealed Himself to them to be the Merciful One. I have no reason to doubt such a manifestation. As I said, miracles and visions seem to be for the benefit of the unbeliever.

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75. “My friend’s journey isn’t an exposition of Romans. It’s a discovery that God is out there, beckoning her own to another chapter of loving God and loving neighbor. She’s sane as a judge. And she believes a rainbow appeared out of nowhere, just for her.”
    “Her own”? Should that be “His own”, or is this another edition of The Shack?
    Great post IMonk. You raise some very provocative questions.

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76. I too share the IM’s skepticism. Perhaps it’s my scientific training that preceded my theological training, but I’d like to think it’s what I’ve learned from the Scriptures. Yes, the Bible is a record of some pretty amazing miracles, the resurrection of Jesus being the pinnacle. But the biblical record is over some 1400 years of history (I exclude Gen 1-11 here). The number of miracles divided by the number of years suggests that miracles might be exceedingly rare. I also note that the book of Acts ends on a rather non-miraculous note, with the leading apostle of the church under house arrest but the Word of the Lord continuing to spread.

    Miracles are, by definition, unexpected, unpredictable, and untamable. Were they to be expected and predictable, they would cease to be miracles but would become the ordinary way. If you can “expect a miracle” it isn’t one. Also, if you look at the miracles of the Bible, many if not all of them are presented as evidence for the unbeliever, not as spiritual bene for the believer.

    Oscar Cullman in “Early Christian Worship” makes a compelling case from the Gospel according to St. John that the ongoing miracles in the Church today are Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, which I believe are the “greater works” Jesus gave His disciples to do.

    Finally, an observation from Soren Kierkegaard: Faith based on miracles needs miracles to keep it going.

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77. Interesting thing happened to me once. At about the age of 18 (I’m 46 now) I went to a charismatic healing service (I am Baptist). The speaker (well known)called out a specific ailment I had while I was at the alter praying along with probably 30 other people. I didn’t identify myself as being the one with the ailment (tooth and jaw pain) but he then stood in front of me and whispered in my ear, “Your the one with the pain, aren’t you?”. He then lay his hands on my head and I experienced a warm sensation rushing through my whole body as the speaker said the Holy Spirit is all over you. I then experienced what is know in charismatic circles as being “slain in the spirit” fell back and experienced what I can only describe as the most perfect peace I have ever known. HOWEVER,I was not healed as I expected to be, the pain didn’t go away and later had to have extensive dental work to take care of the problem. Was it a move of God? Some type of hypnosis? I really don’t know. I do know that I am still skeptical of spiritual “experiences” but know I can find God in scripture and believe scripture must validate any experience we have.

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78. So many of us have seen such nonsense foisted as miracles and the work of the Holy Spirit, That we have reverted to a “Father, Son and Holy Bible” mentality, yet this is not the triunity of God. We are so afraid of the false witness of the kook and the charlatan that to avoid false testimony we have closed the court.
    Of course God can make us aware of a rainbow, a bird call, a wind, even an audible voice! We were promised by Jesus that He would not leave us alone, but would go to send the Comforter, the Guide to help us. Would we limit the ways this Personal of the Godhead is allowed to work?
    If the Holy Spirit has never put a burden on the heart, brought joy in sadness,convicted us of sin, revealed God’s will to us, or reassured us of His presence, then can we be sure we are in a relationship with Him?
    The Spirit will never contradict the Scripture, or add to it, or lead into sin or folly. Is there a biblical reason why He could not use any part of His creation, the wind, the rainbow, the birds, the sun beams, or one people, to bring a point, or conviction, or His love to us?
    I once threatened to picket a Baptist church with a sign that read, “Equal time for the Holy Ghost”.
    [That protest did not work out for me.] It is too bad that the Holy Spirit is indeed a ghost to many churches. Charles Stanley’s “A Wonderful Spirit Filled Life” is a good read by a good man.
    We are in a relationship with a Supernatural Being, should we not expect a bit of Super Natural events in our lives?
    Woe to those who witness falsely of the Spirit. That warning about blaspheming the Holy Spirit being the unforgivable sin might mean just what it says, not only not believing in Christ.

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79. As a good Bapticostalic (I was saved in a Baptist church, am ordained with a Pentecostal denomination, and spent four years as a monk with the community founded by John Michael Talbot. Hence, Bapticostalic), I follow your line of reasoning completely. But I do believe that God still works miracles like those in the Bible (I’m not a good Calvinist or dispensationalist. Sometimes, I don’t even think I’m a good Christian, but that’s another matter).

    However, any time those miraculous experiences become the main issue in a person’s life and distract one from focusing on Christ, I get concerned. Your friend is right to have continuing updates on her spiritual journey. We all should. Be if those “updates” lead us away from God and we start worshiping our experiences, then we’ve obviously missed the purpose of the experiences.

    Just thinking out loud.

    Blessings,

    Jim

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80. I’m with Michael in that I have a general skepticism about such things. But I know people who have had visions and signs, that have profoundly affected them. So who am I to say? The question ultimately is, what is the fruit of the event? Does it draw the person closer to Christ Crucified, or does it send them off into some loopy world further from the revealed Faith and its Author? In other words, I think certain signs can be written of as junk based on their tendency to sow discord, disobedience, heresy etc. But those that don’t, but rather promote faithfulness? I guess to those looking in from outside, the best we can say is, dunno. But to those for whom the gift was intended, I suggest they milk it for all the grace it contains, give thanks to God, and move on loving Him and neighbor.

    I presume my skepticism probably means I would never “catch” the gift, were I graced with being given one.

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81. Did god get out of the miracle business and I missed the memo? There is a vast difference betwen having an open mind to the Hand of god and being a blasted fool. Some of us were raised in a school so intent on not being fooled we closed our mind.

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82. @ Debbie Kaufman: I totally agree with you; balance is the key.

    Is not the ultimate desire of a Christian to be with the Almighty? I certainly want to experience Him physically, emotionally, intellectually and spiritually. Whatever taste of any of that I can receive in this life; I want it, I’ll pray for it, and I’ll be attempt to be aware if and when it occurs. I will also pray for the gift of discernment so I will know when it is God.

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83. I understand the pull towards a simple faith based on personal experience, but like you I can’t go there myself.

    I’m a Christian, but I’m a Christian because I believe it’s more than simply a “feeling” or “signs and wonders.” Virtually every religion that has ever existed has had adherents who believe God(s)/supernatural forces give them special “feelings” or miracles that guide them to truth. Since I believe Christianity is the truth, the vast majority of people throughout human history must have been tricking themselves into thinking their “feelings” and “miracles” were real. Thus, I’m always conscious of the fact that I have the capacity to trick myself into believing in things that just aren’t true.

    In the end, I would rather be sad in the truth, then happy in ignorance. But this does seem to keep me from the “child like faith” that I seek.

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84. There’s no question that God sometimes works outside of the laws of nature (which He created). As recorded in scripture, these are incredible extra-natural events, like raising someone from the dead or the congenital blind seeing. He can do those today if He wants.

    However,

    1) If you define “miracle” as something that God does outside the natural laws of physics, human physiology and etc.

    and

    2) you have a Dualistic perspective, that this physical, natural world (which God has made and thought was good) is inferior (possible even evil) when compared to the “extra-natural”

    and

    3) you really want to experience God,

    then you see “miracles,” even very soft ones, wherever you can and that is really important to you.

    But if you really sense that everything this side of absolute nothing, was God breathed (not counting evil, but speaking metaphysically) and is therefore a miracle, then it is not so important for you to experience the extra-natural “miracles.” I believe that this is reflected in Einstein’s statement, “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”

    I believe that God is there, He created the universe therefore the whole freaken universe is a miracle.

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85. After a stint in the Vineyard, I am pretty skeptical concerning most of that stuff. I consider all of the flamboyant televangelists to be obvious charlatans and scammers. I learned the hard way that its a wicked and adulterous generation that seeks a sign.

    That being said,I have had what appear to be miraculous answers to prayer. Many of my pastor friends have had amazingly miraculous things happen. But in our tradition, that stuff is usually kept on the DL.

    It’s wearying to be on that ‘miracle treadmill.’
    Alot of it is an attempt at spiritual validation.If God is performing miracles in your life you must be “in.”

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86. There’s a lot of similarities between this post and the recent one concerning apologetics. There are a lot of people who don’t think they are smart enough to understand the bible; having a bunch of apologist wanna-be’s acting so much smarter than everyone else doesn’t help. I can see this leading people to more folksy, esoteric spiritual experiences, rather than objective, scripture-based faith.

    Having fundamentalism stereotype human reason as liberal and humanistic makes matters that much worse. If people can’t trust human reason, they must either pursue an irrational spiritual path or submit themselves to an authoritarian – potentially abusive – spiritual leader or group (e.g. Bentley).

    Luther proclaimed that he would not be convinced without scripture and plain, clear reason. Maybe he was an “unbeliever”, too.

    The reduction of the bible to a pragmatic cookbook also doesn’t help. People now go to the bible for moral, self-help advice. Where do they go to find God?

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87. Tim,

    I had that happen to me once. I have heard what I believed to be the audible voice of God once in my life. Only once. He told me that my time of ministry at a particular church was done, and that he had something new for me at another church (One that I had no prior knowledge of).

    We left the first church, they actually had a time of prayer for us at our last service, and moved to the new church.

    It closed through quite a painful process 2 years later.

    We were left wondering. “What was that all about?”

    Yet it is only now, that we are involved in a third church that we are starting to see some of the wonderful ways that God caused the closing of a church to benefit so many of the people who were there. Our family, for one, are finally in a church that feels like home. This after 17 years of churches that felt like anything but home. Others have expressed to me how their new church (different to ours) has really been a blessing to them.

    Was it really the audible voice of God? I can’t say for sure, but as I look back, he sure seems to have turned something that looked quite bleak into a blessing for many.

    I have only had a couple of other interesting encounters with God like this over my life time. The other two were a lot more concrete that the one mentioned above. Once per decade doesn’t seem like a lot, but it keeps me from being a skeptic as to whether or not God is still doing “signs and wonders” in this world.

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88. Michael, I’m pretty much with you.

    I believe in miracles– I’ve heard some amazing stories, and I believe them. But I also believe that they are miracles and therefore, by definition, don’t happen nearly so often as some folks claim.

    And I think that a lot of Christians have a definite confusion of causation and correlation, which leads them dangerously into magical thinking.

    Sincerity is important in the Christian faith– but sincerity alone does not create new phenomena. Religion based mainly on sincerity is certainly religion, but it isn’t the Christianity of the Bible.

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89. the hard part is when you’re open to these things (in spite of being a calvinist), make a hard decision based on what you think was a vision from God, and all that results is a charlie foxtrot.

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90. I doubted until I saw a few of those signs and wonders for myself. I can relate to Thomas; he wasn’t willing to believe any of that resurrection crap until he had seen it himself too.

    Even though I’m surrounded by fellow pentecostals, I still take many of their miracle stories with a grain of salt. Frequently we pentecostals are too gullible. We want miracles so badly that we’re willing to accept shoddy evidence, iffy stories, and people with lousy reputations who exaggerate or lie in order to look impressive. The devil fakes miracles too, mainly to discredit the real ones. But that still leaves plenty of real ones.

    I would be a lot more particular about my signs and wonders than your friend is. When you pray, and immediately afterward see a rainbow, that is not a sign. That’s an omen, and omens aren’t God, but augury, superstition, and baloney. It is only a sign when God assigns the interpretation to nature—like the original purpose of rainbows (Gen 8:13) or something out of the ordinary, like a baby in a manger. (Luke 2:12) If God told her, “Here’s a sign to confirm My promise: You’ll see a rainbow in a cloudless sky,” then we’re talking a sign. Otherwise we’re talking about someone who wants a sign so badly that she’s making ’em up, and drawing her hope from fabrications instead of God. God forbid she decides to take drastic steps based on self-made “signs.”

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91. On the other hand, if you just landed on earth in a space ship, looked around a little, then turned on a little TBN, or Daystar . . . you might get the impression that Christians on planet Earth were not skeptical enough.

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92. I was a couple of weeks out from a marathon, and the plan was to run 22 miles that day. Around mile 16, I hit the wall. Part of the reason I was even running the marathon was because I knew I couldn’t–I wanted to do something that I needed to rely on God for. But I felt I had failed. I was on the Maxwell AFB golf course, headed toward the River, and I felt like I could barely take another step.

    First, I “felt” permission to finish the loop I was on and head back to the gym. I didn’t even have to jog, just walk, but I wasn’t to turn around and take the short cut. I obeyed and headed down the hill. When I got to bottom of the hill, I was surrounded. Butterflies and dragonflies were everywhere. It was absolutely beautiful.

    Was it a direct blessing from God for obeying a “spoken” order? Or just a bunch of bugs? I dunno. All the same, I have “heard” God on occasion, but I don’t ask for signs like that too often. Frankly, it scares me.

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93. I think I understand the kind of skepticism you’re talking about. It’s my default reaction when people talk about prophecies, not so much miracles. I know prophecy is Biblical, but when I hear people who I don’t think are “qualified” or “in a position” to prophecy (quotes because I don’t exactly know how I would even define those) it makes me think of those fortune tellers who say generic things that could apply to almost anyone. I have a feeling that it’s wrong for me to jump to that conclusion, but as you wrote – the Todd Bentleys of the world drove me to my skepticism.
    Like CowBell said, may God grant us humility and discernment.

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94. Great post Michael! I’m too often an unbeliever as well, but there’s something biblical about that…I believe, help my unbelief.

    Our culture makes us skeptical of anything that can’t be verified in a laboratory. Our church culture makes us skeptical…if you visit this site, then you’ve probably been burned by that culture to some extent. I think watching debate videos between atheists and theists have made me skeptical since the god the theists argue for is often very deistic.

    I’ve experienced miracles though. If I outlined them for everyone, I’m sure that some would be skeptical based on other presuppositions, but their still very real to me. At the same time, if someone else on here outlined miracles in their life I’d be skeptical as well simply because we’re shaped to be that way by our Western culture.

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95. I forgot to add. No you are not an unbeliever. God works personally, different in each person. I do not seek nor want a private prayer language, but I believe he gifts some with it.

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96. Michael: Balance is the key. I do believe that God works in the way your friend has described. I believe I have experienced it more than once in my Christian life. The experiences are not to trump the Bible nor are they to contradict the Bible. The Bible is the final authority, but experiences can lead to a deeper understanding of what scripture is teaching. It solidifies that we are on the right track in what we believe, and that God is really, personally with us.

    Satan doesn’t go the opposite way of God as many believe, he takes the things of God and perverts it. Such as a Todd Bentley, or even a Benny Hinn. He perverts marriage, such as those living together, gay marriages. He perverts the beauty of God invented sex numerous way. Satan isn’t very inventive. Look what he did in the garden of Eden. Used the very tree that God planted to bring sin into the world.

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97. New to the site. Great blog, iMonk!

    As one whose faith journey has taken him from Methodist to Baptist then back to Methodist then (very) briefly Anglican and finally to the Roman Catholic Church, yeah I echo your reservations about these “signs and wonders”. But then I also always step back and ask myself jut why I’m skeptical – why I doubt. Sometimes it’s for good reasons, but other time I confess that my default position seems to be skepticism. And for someone who chose to join a Church which professes (and who himself whole-heartedly affirms) transubstantiation and multiple Marian apparitions, this is admittedly to an extent hypocritical. This is, of course, even without mentioning the miracles recorded in scripture.

    One line I like from my Catholic teachers is that God may have bound himself to the Sacraments, but he is in no way bound by the Sacraments. In other, more cliched words, God works in mysterious ways. May he grant us eyes to see and ears to hear his many great and glorious wonders, as well as the humility and discernment to know the difference between the true miracles and the misinterpretations/hoaxes.

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