Comments are moderated. Be patient.
UPDATE: Trevin Wax, who recommended the book to me, is reviewing it today as well.
Matt Rogers has written a book on the Christian experience of depression and doubt. Losing God is a brief, but intensely honest first person account of Rogers’ own battle with depression, a battle that took up years of his life in college and after.
Losing God may be of special interest to a many of the IM audience because of the interaction of his depression crisis with the Calvinistic theology he heard from college friends, ministers and Christian teachers. To anyone familiar with the history of Calvinism, it will not be a surprise that some persons are terrorized by the doctrines of election and predestination, or that some of these persons “lose God” for a season in the process.
There is good evidence, for example, that Luther felt the mysteries of predestination and election could be harmful to some believers. Spurgeon shows pastoral sensitivity to those who may be tempted to despair at the thought of God’s absolute sovereignty. Roger’s own crisis was helped by ministers who understood that what some see as an awesome attribute of God can be an abyss of darkness to others.
More than a few theological types have overlooked the real experience of depression that many persons bring into the church. Christians have such a tendency towards believing that the Gospel, rightly understood, “fixes” our brokenness that they do not see that some aspects of the Gospel itself may cause a depressed person to struggle or even despair.
Roger’s book is short, but in many ways it could have been even shorter. The value in going through each chapter of his depression isn’t to overdo redundancy, but to show that depression is chronic, stubborn and often continues for years without improvement. The frustration some readers may feel at covering this intense emotional journey in such detail will be a small window into how the depressed person feels in the seemingly endless cycle of depression and despair.
These chapters also reveal the varieties of responses a depressed person will receive from those who become aware of depression. This is useful- and frustrating- as well.
Rogers’ choice to not see a doctor is the most disturbing aspect of the book for me. (He admits that he should have seen a doctor and recommends that others do so.) There are points in the story that an experienced counselor will see how close someone like Rogers will come to tragic actions to gain some relief. I am glad that Rogers has recovered, but anyone who recognizes themselves in the book should seek professional counseling and medical help.
Rogers could have written another book on the interaction of evangelical theology of the Christian life with the causes of his depression. Rogers is, if anything, far too kind to evangelicalism in this regard. Evangelicals need to honestly assess the things they teach about emotion in Christian experience. They need to make considerable progress on seeing depression as a disease and on how they feel about the use of medications.
Being on the inside as Rogers experiences a personal abyss is painful. Seeing that evangelicals often have little more to offer than “Read another devotional book” is very sad.
No doubt, evangelicalism has many casualties and victims who have struggled with doubt and depression and not come out on the other side. It’s a gift of God’s mercy that Matt Rogers made it through to a life without debilitating despair and depression. As you take his journey with him, look around you and consider if the same story isn’t there with someone you know.
Losing God is not the best book on depression, but as an account of how Calvinism figures into a depression, it’s highly valuable. It is a helpful text for anyone who needs to know what depression feels like or how inadequate our responses often are.
The Internet Monk Archives 
Or maybe depression has less to do with theology and more to do with medical health… ie. chemical imbalance etc. As such it is treatable – without religion.
Our faith is rooted in who God is, not in what he does for those who serve him.
LikeLike
what an interesting site! isn’t it in all of our prayers to God to show us his truth?
In the past year, my 18 year old is having a culture reaction/ oppositional defiance expression/ denial of God. His relationship was shattered with his father when he was 12 and started talking of how horrible his father was – and through much counsel, determined that he was abused – more verbal than sexual, but tickling that became more inappropriate with each year it continued. His young cries for prayer left him vulnerable to ridicule within his youth group. He persevered and became one of the worship team leaders. After 2 mission trips to Seattle to work with Sacred Heart, he came back “vegan” and shortly thereafter, renounced his faith and left our pca church crushed. It has been devasting as a mom to see her once vibrant son go from wanting to become a youth minister to one who finds so much fault in believing.
Amazingly, God has sent affirmation after affirmation to encourage me in My faith. Even after reading many of your interesting entries, I want to encourage you all in our hope in God, despite your bad experience in an all or nothing theology.
God delights in the praises of His people. It is by His grace that we are saved. It is a mystery as to whether it is by His spirit or our response to His calling that we do anything good. But one of the messages that always calls me back to the goodness of God is the illustration of Jonah and Ninevah used in the New Testament, the restoration of Jonah to do God’s work and the grace that God extended to a city that was undeserving. “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.” Romans 11:32. I can see why God would allow us to duke it out down here about His grace versus our response – we have to have both – it is not an either or thing. We need His grace and we have to respond. So both camps are right and both sides shed light on how important it is to remember that it is God who is good and who calls us to himself, as well as how important it is that we respond and evangelize.
“Oh the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God…”
So I pray that He will draw my son back to Himself and believe in His goodness and mercy to Ninevah. My son’s heart is hurting for all that is wrong in society, the consumerism of America and the difficulties he faced from his own father, and living up to the expectations of my husband, his stepfather. Much more to the story. I have given my grief to God – and He is thankfully restoring my joy after many years of struggling.
So return to thankfulness. Beg for prayer groups in your church that are small and intimate and don’t stop when they dwindle – invite others who are safe and remind people of the importance of loving and praying for those with request – and not to gossip. Be the person that you wished comforted you in your hurt. Trust that the God who made the mountains is big enough to carry you out of your valley.
Before I go, do pray for continued understanding of two things that are urgently calling for attention in our world… how to treat those born with sexually ambiguous organs in relation to homosexuality. Also, those who are sexually abused, especially father on son abuse. I think these are the types of horrors that leave us exhausted when we take our eyes off of Christ and onto the circustances of the world we live in.
Is it possible that God not only sanctifies us individually but also as a church?
Also, Jesus Calling by Sarah Young is a wonderfully sweet devotion. Thank you for allowing me to ramble here.
LikeLike
I was a bit afraid of writing this.
What a broken people we Christians are! I am surprised that more of us are not depressed. We confess a gospel of miracles and healings and yet survive on grace through letters that lead us to a life of the Cross. We search for a place where our doubts will go away – and that might be a church filled with those perfect Christians whose faith is so strong that they can have miracle crusades. A church that really believes “Whatever you ask for in My name.” A church that says it has been been unwavering for centuries. Or a church where the members know what the Lord is actually saying to them. But when that doesn’t happen to you and you start to ask questions, I can see why you pick up and move on and remain broken.
I am not depressed (probably just cynical), and I do find joy in my Lord and prayer life. But this life of faith and this search for God is not easy or clear. To some degree, darkness is still a part of the Christian journey.
LikeLike
Dan:
I have a whole series on the Christian and mental illness.
https://internetmonk.com/archive/the-christian-and-mental-illness
LikeLike
JohnB5200
A couple observations.
While Christian churches agree on about 90% of doctrine for the most part, denominationalism springs from what could be called first principles or emphases. The engine running Calvinism is the sovereignty of God; the thing that makes Arminianism tick is the spiritual autonomy of man; Charismatics are driven by the Holy Spirit; the Holiness churches are centered on God’s holiness: the Lutherans on Christ’s work on the cross: the Catholics are the original Church founded by Jesus etc. etc. I found that it was far more profitable in my search to consider these emphases and how each group interprets the Scriptures through them.
Not all of these first principles are of equal value, some really suck, and will bring you to despair.
I have noticed that groups lacking in grace and big on legalism are more likely to produce despair and burnout regardless of which doctrinal camp they are from.
Call me weak, but I chose the theology that I thought offered the most hope, and at its core what I considered to be the most happy or joyous, and would be conducive to my continued mental health.( Not that it is always exhibited in many of the congregations in my particular denomination.)
LikeLike
I anticipated (Hoped) in reading this blog to find some well thought out christian perspective on dealing with mental health issues. I work with homeless, and domestic violence situations and am often asked for advice. I don’t give it, but refer it to professionals. After reading all the responses I am now depressed. Instead of understanding I see blame. This thought process, or set of doctrines, or this denomination causes this or that. Maybe we need to start where Christ told us to end – except as you become like little children -not hung up on some one else’s preference of what to do, or how. Watching my two boys start out in a fight over what to play, but shortly thereafter figuring out a hybrid of what they both want. Always makes me say hmmmmm.
LikeLike
It’s depression talking.
Be anything rather than believe that. I’m not kidding.
God created you as an image of himself in whom he delights. Christ loved you and redeemed you completely.
All is this is done. Finished. No questions. God’s love is a Romans 8 love. Nothing can stop it.
Believe nothing else.
LikeLike
Growing up in a very Calvinist environment, I rejected organized religion as soon as I could. I didn’t enter a church for over 30 years, except for a wedding or funeral.
It was only when I found Methodism — and I had no idea that all Christians weren’t some type of Baptist — that I was able to find God.
Soon after that, the mild depression I’d struggled with all my life turned into full-blown clinical depression, with all the dangers that brings.
Thank God, I now had a church full of supportive people who helped me. Who called me at night, and sent me encouraging emails. Who talked me into getting into therapy and seeing a doctor.
If all I had available to help me was Calvanistic Christianity, I might well be dead right now.
LikeLike
Hmm, this might be the perfect place to ask this …
I’ve been struggling with depression/suicidal urges for years, and I’m finally doing better with a combination of meds and cognitive behavioral therapy.
But I struggle with one overwhelming thought: Everyone else deserves happiness but me. I’ll never be happy. (I’ve “learned” this through a lifetime of heartache, loneliness and painful experiences.)
My therapist tells me this is a myth, but what about the Bible saying that I’m totally depraved and worthy of death without Christ? I am a Christian, and I’m trusting in Christ’s blood alone to save me.
What makes me think I can expect the same things as every other Christian — family, home, good job, etc. I truly feel like everybody else can get these but I will never have them.
Is this the depression talking, or is it in some way biblical?
LikeLike
This sounds like it is an gonna be an interesting book to read. Michael, you keep making my booklist increase, with a corresponding decrease my bank balance to boot! =)
LikeLike
Michael,
The point you keep repeating, and bears repeating, is that depression is no respecter of theology. I have struggled with it as a dispensationalist, and as a Calvinist, and as a reformed person trying to be gospel- centered. My theology has evolved, and has grown in it’s effectiveness at helping me fight melancholy/depressive inclinations. But depressed people distort their view of God by the very nature of the disease.
The doctrine of predestination is an agonizing doctrine, that causes much emotional trauma to most of us who wrestle with it. I would guess that many who have depressive tendencies might have those tendencies catalyzed by wrestling with the doctrine. However, there are other doctrines that are probably equally catalytic, such as the doctrine of eternal punishment and hell. Wrestle with these doctrines we must, however, if we are to understand our most holy and wise God.
Dan
LikeLike
Everything I post here is my opinion — it is, of course from my point of view. But I have come to faith in God and His Christ in a very atypical fashion. As far as my understanding of my chosen belief system, as it were, I have for a long time been a lector and an extraordinary minister and have taught CCD. A close friend, confessor and spiritual adviser is a cut-in -the-cloth Roman Catholic and a priests priest — formally our pastor he is now a monsignor and the rector of our local seminary. Another close friend has recently celebrated his 50th anniversary as a priest. We have spent many hours together as he used to man a side on my commercial fishing boat. He wants me to enter the seminary and he knows one that will take me even though I am nearly 60 years old. Sometimes I think I might take him up on that.
Of course, you might be able to skewer that by printing up all my posts and sending them to Rome. (tee-hee)
LikeLike
The blessings of the Psalm are the temporal blessings of the Old Covenant. We can agree that God is not providing land to those who obey his commandments.
But you are saying, if I understand you, that Ps 119 is pure condemnation. Aside from being a radical Lutheran view and completely disregarding the RC view of the use of the Psalms in worship and prayer, you can’t just say that it’s “strange” that I can read the catechism.
I suppose I have to say that your representation of Catholicism on this blog has really caused me a lot of frustration and several letters to knowledgable Catholic friends to try and understand how you can contradict the teaching of the church continually with such complete disregard.
I don’t really care what you believe. But concluding that the Psalms are “depressing” is a view at such variance with all of christian practice and belief that you can’t just cite yourself as an authority without saying that you are outside what your church and most churches teach.
You seem to play the comment threads all in a similar fashion: when a comment reflects a person giving the views of a group or a church, you contradict it as an individual. Fine. That should be clear. The RCC loves and uses the Psalms, but you disagree with the RCC on that one, and on many many other things.
ms
LikeLike
Imonk In my opinion it is strange that you are telling me what it is to be a Catholic and how I am to go about it. We could discuss that further, but it is off topic.
When I say “it is my experience” that is like saying “it is my opinion.” Will that do?
Assuming that it will — it is my experience, given the degree to which we are held to account to the Law by the teaching of the Incarnate Word Himself — if I am guilty simply by an angry or lustful thought — I don’t know about you, but in my experience, for me it is hopeless unless I can get blessed by another way.
And, in my experience, I can and do ….
LikeLike
Psalm 119 is the most depressing Psalm you’ve ever read?
I think that one can be beaten. Try 137.
So Psalm 1 and all other Psalms about the law- Psalms Jesus sang and recited- are “depressing.”
They would be without Jesus. But Jesus gives us the Holy SPirit so that we are free to delight in what does not condemn us but does reveal God and guide the believer.
>…Well — since it is impossible for any of us to do any of the things that will get us blessed by God according to that Scripture..
And be sure and tell your priest that you’re actually a Lutheran, because the RCC most certainly teaches that God’s grace enables you to do what is in Ps 119, the Ten C’s etc.
Surfnetter- I’d really like it if you would adopt the sentence “This is just my opinion” into your posts frequently.
LikeLike
Imonk “the entire purpose of the Law…
That is one purpose of the law out of several in scripture. If you follow your thinking that it is the only purpose, then you become an antinomian who can’t read Psalm 119.”
Well — since it is impossible for any of us to do any of the things that will get us blessed by God according to that Scripture, that is the most depressing Psalm I have ever read. Unless, of course, the understanding comes that the one the Psalm is about is the Christ — ” …the Law and the Prophets testify of me.” With real faith in His abilities, we can get that good stuff as a gift, and can keep getting gifted it if we keep giving it away.
Patrick Lynch — “Didn’t work out for Job.”
Exactly what did work for Job …? The only intelligent answer that I have ever heard to what the message to Job is in that Book is “I’m God and you’re not.”
LikeLike
Debbie:
I didn’t condemn the conference. I pointed out its weakness as a theological forum or as a place to diagnose the SBC’s woes.
God bless anyone who wants to talk about John 3:16.
But Calvinism has its own strengths and weaknesses. Both. And a lot of both.
ms
LikeLike
IMonk,
I can definately see where an overiding since of dread from not being able to discern and grasp all of what predistination means could lead one to despair. However, I would like to here more about what links folks think might be to fundementalism and depression/anxiety.
Let me share my own story.
I was raised in an fundementalist environment. I never felt like my parents bought into the whole thing but I think they were there as cultural refugees from what they saw going on elsewhere.
I went on to become a pastor. Now in this type of church to those of you who may not know the pastor is under intense presure. He is expected to have some new revelation or new take on an old topic each service. He is expected to speak extemporaneously and to be very charismatic (not in spiritual gifts but in a personality type way). The preacher is “the man”. Many of these churches fall into “preacher worship.” Folks have their own favorites who they will drive miles to hear, folks debate who is best, and I’v even seen young chilren have a space in their bibles where they were encouraged to have preachers they heared in revivals sign them like an autograph collection.
These preachers form a “cult of the personality”. They are expected to single handedly carry each service and the entire church in some cases. Their word is on a subject is mostly considered the law of the land.
It is a very stressing situation.
I had been pastoring a church that had been in that vein of practice in the past for about two years when we had our first child. As folks know it was hectic. I was suffering from what I think and the doctor thinks was mostly stess induced anxiety. I was sleeping irregular, irritable, I was constantly worried about my child. Didn’t want to leave the house even though he was home with my wife etc. It was weired. But there was this overwhelming sense of dread. It got to a cripling state for about two weeks before i finally saw my doctor.
After some aide in sleeping and a low dose of sometning i cant’ even recall for about 4 months things were back to normal.
but the experience changed me. I am not negative about folks with mental illness now like I used to be. I don’t think they need to just pray. I don’t sweat the small stuff. If the ladies at my church want to wear pants (another story) I don’t care. I don’t take the responsiblity of having a “good service” on myself. I don’t try to be Billy Sunday every week. I use a lectionary. I have become in many ways less prone to emotionalism in my worship, but I feel my devotional life is deeper. I use the BCP for morning prayers etc.
Being fundementalist often means just being against stuff (the list is too long). Yes there are good things that came out of my fudimentalist upbringing, but a lot of baggage came with it.
Sorry to be so long and sorry for the spelling.
LikeLike
It makes me wonder if the problem is not the particular ‘camp’ you are in or switched to, but in seeing the distortions you’ve been embracing, and finding correction and release in the process of switching camps. Maybe depression is not aggravated by one ’system’ or another, but the distortions of truth (from whatever source) that fight against hope and faith.
Dave R: Yes. Or at least, that’s been my personal experience, too. (Meaning being set from from distorted ideas about God, the Gospel, etc. – though some “weirdified” Calvinist ideas played a big part in the distortions I was hearing and believing….)
LikeLike
I’ve skipped a lot of recent comments here, so apologies in advance if these things have already been said…
1. Josh: Thank you! I was trying to say what you said, but you pulled it off far better than I did. 🙂
2. I went through real mental and emotional agony for some time prior to my conversion. And while I was in that state, I was taking an American lit survey… One of the assigned pieces was J. Edwards’ “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” That sermon definitely did NOT help me in any way – I actually had to try and block it out of my mind. *But* – thank God that the Christian friends who were talking to me about the Gospel at that point were presenting the love, mercy, grace, compassion and forgiveness to be found in Christ. I really (as in, “desperately”) needed to hear that – and it helped tremendously to defuse the bomb that was lobbed into my court (as it were) when I had to read Edwards. I still find that sermon – and others like it – to be terrifying, and cannot imagine the psychic/emotional havoc that such preaching has wreaked over the centuries.
3. I’m not now (and never have been) a Calvinist. 😉
LikeLike
Patrick: Read what I said again. And again if necessary.
LikeLike
Calvinism, depression, and Matt Rogers, have absolutely no connection the way things have been presented.
In theological categories, it sounds like Rogers may have been a hyper-Calvinist during his period of depression. But it appears that he has taken the edge off of the rigid introspection of hyper-Calvinism and remains committed to the doctrines of grace.
Additionally, Evangelicals do need to be willing to grant that there can be times where there is mental illness. At this point, pastors need to be willing to refer their congregants to a medical authority. However, it becomes quite convenient for many to use psychology as a crutch to blame their behavior and attitudes on their own sin. Please don’t misunderstand me, I agree that there are people that need medical attention to care for them so that they can grow in Godliness. The problem imo is that too many churches have allowed psychology to become a scapegoat
LikeLike
I got Taylor’s “Myth of Certainty” (which sounds like it might be similar to “Losing God”) but found it was not really addressed to my condition.
I do not struggle with “Is Christianity true?” vs atheism, Islam, Hinduism etc.
My “spiritual depression” is caused by the continual dueling (in my mind) of the various theologies within Christianity: Reformed, Wesleyan, Lutheran, Catholic, Orthodox, and on and on.
How can I know which, if any, are truly true? All have scads of brilliant and holy adherents. Is it all subjective? Just close my eyes and pin the tail on the donkey? As Lewis said, we cannot live in the hallway (mere Christianity.) We must choose a room.
To continue to study systematic theologies only seems to drive me further into “depression.” Yet it is like an unbreakable addiction.
LikeLike
“If I have truly heard and received the Good News, I have spiritual gifts that I am to freely give away to whoever needs them. Doing this in secret, God rewards me openly and one of those rewards is to keep me from falling into the hole in my soul where He found me.”
Didn’t work out that way for Job…
The whole thing seems like magical thinking to me. Your lack of despair can’t be proof in any way that you’ve heard and received the Good News. If you get depressed again, does that mean it happened because you sinned? That makes for a nice piety, but I don’t see that it describes or corresponds to anything that actually happens in real life.
I just don’t see how that line of thinking can be reconciled within the life and person of Jesus.
LikeLike
“If someone is afraid they are not the elect, chances are they are the elect. One who is not the elect wouldn’t care.”
So if I estimate I’m almost certainly not one of the Elect, I’m probably closer to God than anybody?
LikeLike
If someone is afraid they are not the elect, chances are they are the elect. One who is not the elect wouldn’t care.
Michael: Don’t you think this post would fall under the same category as the John3:16 conference you condemned in an earlier post? I don’t think one has to believe in Calvinism in order to be a Christian. There is only one way to heaven and that is through Christ alone. Calvinism is merely an explanation that when we think it is our choice that caused us to choose Christ, it’s God choosing us first. It’s God’s view of what happens to lead us to salvation as opposed to a human view.
LikeLike
>…the entire purpose of the Law…
That is one purpose of the law out of several in scripture. If you follow your thinking that it is the only purpose, then you become an antinomian who can’t read Psalm 119.
ms
LikeLike
Reading through the posts, I see several “I was Arminian, then found Calvinism and my depression lifted”, and “I was Calvinist, and found/returned to Arminianism and my depression lifted”. It makes me wonder if the problem is not the particular ‘camp’ you are in or switched to, but in seeing the distortions you’ve been embracing, and finding correction and release in the process of switching camps. Maybe depression is not aggravated by one ‘system’ or another, but the distortions of truth (from whatever source) that fight against hope and faith.
Surfnetter, I might be beginning to get a hint at what you were talking about.
LikeLike
In my experience with it, my understanding and acceptance of the concept of the good intentions of theSovereign God toward me can lead to hope — but “hope differed is hope denied,” which then leads to despair. I have to let go of my own understanding to be saved, because that’s what’s pulling me down.
That God will save the faithful and how it all came about through the Fall and the Patriarchs and Moses and the Prophets and then to the coming of the Messiah and His death and resurrection is conceptually within our intellectual ability to grasp — but the actual experience of personal Salvation is wonderfully, inexpressibly beyond all human comprehension. It just Is.
LikeLike
I find it depressing when I agree with Surfnetter.
Obsessing about “isms” rather than God is a downer. Too much theology is bad for Theophilus.
LikeLike
I don’t think that it’s necessarily any particular system of theology that is creating or even exacerbating mental illness – my impression is that we are seeing more mental illness in general in our society, and what many of you are describing is what it looks like in the church.
Forgive what may be my ignorance, but it seems to me that depression is like a cancer – it gloms onto anything in order to feed itself. In this sense, obsessive Calvinist or Arminian or Charismatic or Catholic theology can be equally problematic.
If one trusts God and believes that God intends the best, then it really doesn’t matter what theological system one holds to. I’ve read works by and known Uber-Calvinists who were delighted by their understand of the Soverign God. The problem is, the depressed person, because of depression, seems to lack the ability to trust God and see Him as a friend and not an enemy. This isn’t moral or intellectual failure on the part of the depressed person, it’s an illness.
LikeLike
Didn’t Paul teach that the entire purpose of the Law — which we seem to be calling here “systematic theology” — was to make sure that we all came to the place of recognizing our desperate need for the saving grace of the crucified Messiah?
So maybe this is how it works — our intellect gets imprinted with it and then, if we are honest, we can’t get away — we constantly condemn ourselves (if not truly honest with ourselves, we get in the really hopeless position of condemning others instead). That’s when we eventually become willing to give up the “system” and receive some real help.
LikeLike
John B5200 wrote: “Rather, the problem is an obsession with systematic theology in general. Now, since I have been “enlightened,†I can no longer pray, teach, sing, read the Bible,listen to sermons or have discussions without first running everything through the complex analysis of systematic theology. It is depressing. And it sucks all the joy out of my relationship with God. ”
A comment from my Hebrew and Greek professor at seminary has really helped me in this area. He said that while he had the ability to dissect a sermon to death, he found that it ruined his ability to actually learn from what the preacher/pastor had to say. So when listening to a sermon, he intentionally decided not to critique it on what he knew about the Hebrew/Greek of the passage, but just listen and appreciate what the Pastor had to say.
I have had to learn to do the same. Whether it is a sermon, or music in the service, or plans for the youth group, I have just learned to enjoy what is offered and accept it in a non-critical way.
Of course if something becomes way off-base, I will speak up and then usually only directly to the person involved.
LikeLike
Patrick — “The Gospel is not information” …?
Of course it is — it’s the “Good Information.”
But when a paramedic goes to a car wreck he doesn’t rush to the scene to give the injured medical information.
If I have truly heard and received the Good News, I have spiritual gifts that I am to freely give away to whoever needs them. Doing this in secret, God rewards me openly and one of those rewards is to keep me from falling into the hole in my soul where He found me. Salvation to me is not something promised for the future because of Calvinist election or my Roman Catholic baptism. God saves me every day. He has to. Left to my own devices — which includes the “systematic theology” that still plays in my head from all the evangelical preaching and Catholic-guilt-trip homilies I’ve taken in — I’ll be flushing my self down that pity-pot daily.
LikeLike
This has been a tremendously helpful thread. For what it’s worth, here was my experience:
Depression runs in my family. I’ve struggled with it off and on all my life. When I turned to the Lord and was baptized, I thought that this part of me (the sinful part, with depression being a manifestation of sin) was buried, crucified with Christ. While obviously the sin nature is retained, we as Christians are supposed to live victorious lives above it. So when the symptoms of depression would come up, I considered it proof that my Christian life was a failure, which of course worsened the depression. I needed to “die” more to myself and live more to God. Basically, it became a works-oriented salvation – I needed to pray more, consecrate more, take care of people more, read the Bible more, etc. in order to be free. But I was never free, so what I was doing was not good enough. And God was always displeased with me for not being able to overcome my weakness (and this displeasure was manifested in certain Christian authority figures who seemed to enjoy reminding me that I was not up to their standard – very sick people).
This is why I mentioned above that the inner life teachings, for me at least, were damaging. I felt like I was paralyzed, and I needed to “let Christ do it all.” I needed to “live Christ” and not myself. But when that didn’t solve the problem, it made me think that the constant darkness was again a sign of God’s displeasure. What I really needed to hear was “go see a professional counselor, and consider medication.” It was a (non-Christian) doctor treating me for something else who I finally opened up to. He talked it over with me, said he understood, recommended an excellent psychologist, and himself put me on Lexapro. And that began an entirely new stage in my life.
LikeLike
I am glad to know I am not alone.
I curse the day (metaphorically) that I encountered RC Sproul and his ministry.
I went from being a theological naif to an ardent Calvinist in short order. But despair eventually drove me out of that camp.
Yet, I do not blame Calvinism (or RC) per se. Rather, the problem is an obsession with systematic theology in general.
Now, since I have been “enlightened,” I can no longer pray, teach, sing, read the Bible,listen to sermons or have discussions without first running everything through the complex analysis of systematic theology. It is depressing. And it sucks all the joy out of my relationship with God.
I have been treating my condition with daily doses of “scandalous freedom” and grace. I can suppress the symptoms, but I do not think the disease will ever go away completely.
LikeLike
Mr. Spencer,
I’ll try not to be too windy. I’m a practicing psychiatrist (33years total and 29 in a busy community mental health center in Iowa) and we see this every day. In my practice I try to help people distinguish what type of depression they have as it makes a difference in their treatment. Depression can be a “normal human emotion” in response to losses, etc, and meds are not as helpful as talking therapy, support from friends and their pastors if religious issues are involved.
Some have the “lifestyle” depression, learned at their parents knees, and the typical complaint is that they’ve been depressed “all my life”, and meds usually don’t help as much as good therapy. And there is the clinical depression or “disease” depression that has a list of symptoms that must be looked for including sleep disturbance, appetite changes, suicidal thoughts, plans or attemps, increased irritability, concentration and memory difficulties, decreased interest in pleasurable activities, and often psychotic thinking with halluctinations or delusions-very often of a religious nature such as being damned for committing unpardonable sins, etc. These people usually but not always respond to medical treatment and couseling can often make things worse until their chemistry is corrected enough so their thinking makes it possible for them to respond to talking theapy.
My training was done near a large Dutch Reformed area and we had numerous people with severe religous preoccupations, to the point that we named this condition the “Orange City Syndome” (black medical humor I suspect in retrospect) but we saw and still see all denominations exhibiting these symptoms.
Part of my interests in psychiatry include going to churches in our community to talk about psychiatry and especially mood disorders, and I have been fortunate to have a group of religious people to refer my patients to at the appropriate time to help with “religious problems” when the mental health issues have been helped enough to allow it.
I enjoy your site and appreciate your openness in discussing these issues and your personal comments also
Regareds-Bill
LikeLike
Yikes, I’ve been through (and still going through) some stuff that would have sent me packing from Christianity if I was not a convinced Calvinist (single predestination). Believing in God’s absolute sovereignty has caused so much tension in how I view cause and effect in my life, but if I began to doubt his immutability…. I believe tension would give way to pointlessness and despair.
My younger years were bad enough trying to reconcile with an SBC 4-point arminian perspective of God. He seemed so weak and innoffensive.
LikeLike
I am a Christian who believes that the Bible teaches God’s sovereignty in salvation. I hold to the “TULIP.” It seems that a few people here are implying that this theology *necessarily* leads people into depression. I am not depressed. I *was* depressed for quite a long time, however, including for two years after I became a Christian. I did not hold to Calvinistic theology at the time.
I was a garden-variety American evangelical who held to the popular idea of God as a “gentleman” who will not interfere with our “free will.” These ideas did not comfort me at all when I was living in Maryland, and two snipers were shooting and killing people from inside the trunk of their car (including a couple of people across the street from where I worked). The idea of a semi-sovereign God who would not interfere with peoples’ free will only exacerbated my depression and my experience of the world as a chaotic and confusing place.
Unfortunately, at the time, I also had a skewed understanding of Calvinism and could not understand how it did not make God evil and the author of sin. When I came to understand the doctrines of grace in a balanced, Biblical way, they became the most effective treatment for depression that I had ever had. I am not against all medicine for all forms of depression. In my case, I simply say that understanding the sovereignty of God over people and events in this world has done more to treat and to overcome my depression than years of medication. Again, I am not against medication at all times in all cases of depression. I do believe that medicines need to be prescribed on a *much more* case-by-case basis for people than they often are.
Calvinism, rightly understood, can actually bring a struggling person *hope* in depression and despair. It may not always do so, but if it doesn’t help to alleviate a person’s depression at all, or even makes depression worse, I have to wonder if the person isn’t viewing Calvinism in a skewed, unbalanced way, as I once did.
LikeLike
The best cure to Calvinist depression is Gerry Friesen’s “Decision Making and the Will of God” available from CBD for $12. I can’t recommend it too highly.
LikeLike
I tend to see this a different way.
If by sharing the Good News fundamentally you mean giving the message, having a period of conversation and argument about it’s meaning, witnessing the formerly unsaved’s acceptance of The Truth and offering a concomitant open invitation to church every Sunday, then The Good News is probably going to seem a fairly repulsive proposition for many depressed people.
Why?
Because the antidote for serious depression isn’t information. Not Bible stories, not books by Piper, not appreciating Jars of Clay, not devotionals, not theology.
Depression curls your thoughts up and makes bright things seem bland and fresh things seem rancid. It affects the way you process information, how you value things, changes how you interact with new people and things.
Being given “The Good News” (being proselytized) is a social experience, primarily, and a fairly complicated one when you think about it.
Lots of clinically depressed people aren’t reliably going to be up for that kind of thing. Evangelizing them necessarily involves becoming good news to them. If you want depressed people to love God, you should practice your religion on them: love them, and be really nice to them and be people they can stand to have around.
Q. “Does a depressed person have to be on the right meds before they hear the Gospel?”
….
A. Do you mean, “Before I sit them down to talk with them about my theological convictions / The Gospel of Luke / The End Times / The Virgin Mary / whatever?”
Just to be safe, lets go with yes. In the meantime, since you don’t dispense their meds, your responsibility is always and only to be the light of Christ in their lives, careful to never ever mention that you’re only doing this because Jesus told you to. If you find yourself heatedly arguing philosophical nuances with bored or hostile depressives when your mission was to share the love of God, you’ve probably failed at Jesus.
….
The fact that Christianity is often so bad at this is the most damning strike against the truth of Christianity I can think of.
There are things more pressing in this life than just getting people to read the Book. Jesus knew that, right? The Gospel is not Information, right?
LikeLike
“Evangelicals need to honestly assess the things they teach about emotion in Christian experience.”
Amen and amen.
Encouragement, to put it lightly, to maintain the church camp high and praise and worship service high–all the time, don’t lose your first love–exacerbated the bipolar disorder I started to experience as an adolescent. The hour or two of prayer and Bible study I put myself through every night to try to force my brain chemistry to be more Christian cemented bad emotional habits it took more than a decade to uncover and undo. If I wasn’t manic, I wasn’t being a good Christian. And I was depressed a lot more than I was manic.
I’m inclined to agree with Thomas, though, that the Good News should still be Good News to the mentally ill. I take your point, and then some, that mental illness causes message distortion. But does a depressed person have to be on the right meds before they can hear the Gospel? That seems like bad news to me. I don’t think this is what you’re trying to say, but I see that line of thought leading that way. I believe grace meets us wherever we’re at.
Another angle on the interaction of Calvinism and mental illness: A friend of mine married a preacher with severe bipolar disorder, which of course harmed her and their kids tremendously. Calvinism as she understood it taught her that God chose for her and her kids to endure it without complaint (and without insistence that her husband get and maintain proper treatment). In time she realized this wasn’t God’s will for her, but only after years of suffering and hardship. It’s not just the mentally ill who are hurt by bad teaching but also their families. That’s a heavy burden to carry.
LikeLike
I can see how even the gospel can make depression worse; I see how telling a person struggling with depression that Jesus died for him or her could lead to deeper despair (i.e. I killed Jesus).
I can also see how obsessive religious behavior or study could be attractive to someone struggling with depression. Wretched urgency and the cultural war might appear especially attractive. In that case, religion is still making the depression worse, but the individual falsely believes they are getting better.
You are absolutely right. Depression needs medical attention, not just medication but perhaps the equivalent of physical therapy after experiencing a sports injury. It’s funny that we can call Benny Hinn’s “healings” a fraud, but then we really pull the same stage tricks on those suffering from depression (walk the isle/ pray the prayer/ get baptized/ change churches/ go on a mission trip/ read that next devotion book). The depressed want the pain to stop, and we want to put another butt in the pew. It’s a dark, deadly synergy.
LikeLike
I think it is depressing that the world’s greatest Teacher taught the world’s most simple [yet deep] relationship with God and 2000 years of theological philosophers have complicated it so much that the words of the Savior get lost. We argue about Calvinism and denominational distinctives while thousands are headed for hell. Now that SHOULD depress us.
LikeLike
Bob,
Or are we just more honest about it now?
I have known seven Christians with major mental health issues (Not counting those on the blogosphere). Five of those have occurred in about the last 3 years. So yes, your experience has been my experience as well.
Then again. I probably know 2000 Christians. I don’t know how many more of them have similar issues, but 7 or 10 or 20 does not sound like a lot to me. I would think that Pastor’s would have a better grasp on the numbers than I would.
I just took a minute to look up some stats for what they might be worth. On average, about 7.5% of the population has major mental health issues. So maybe what we are seeing is just a representative population in the church.
LikeLike
It has come to bother me very much lately how many unhealthy evangelicals there are. (You guys who know you are unhealthy are not the ones I mean.) Am I right about this? Are we really nuts? It didn’t seem to be to be this way twenty years ago. Back then, the relatively stability of the Christians I knew was one of my evidences for God working in the church. Have things changed so much, or do I just have more experience now?
LikeLike
A Psalm for the chronically depressed?
Joshua Hearne just published the following at Eclectic Christian. I assume he is the author. It immediately reminded me of the conversation here and could perhaps be of some help/comfort to those who are struggling.
LikeLike
Some days I am glad I am more of an Arminian. 🙂
LikeLike
God knows the elect and God saves certainly, but you can’t know for certain you are elect. You cant have unquestioned assurance. You can know the evidence and you always know that it’s possible the evidence is wrong.
Lutheranism beats Calvinism hands down in the assurance department.
LikeLike
Why only partial assurance? Isn’t eternal security part of Calvinism?
LikeLike
Rogers was terrorized by whether he was truly elect. He was told that he could not know, and could only have partial assurance. This drove him away from God, as it would any rational person. The idea that a person could be non-elect, yet think they were a Christian, drove him progressively into despair.
And those of you who are going to tell me that non-Chrisitans don’t worry about election need to read Matthew Mead, The Almost Christian Discovered, and learn that the Puritans taught that for his glory God awakens sinners that he has no intention to save.
LikeLike
Could someone (iMonk maybe) explain what is the link that you see between Calvinism and depression. I must admit that I am not well enough versed in Calvinism that I totally understand what is going on here.
LikeLike
Thomas,
You are telling me what I meant. That’s fine. But I did not mean what you are saying.
A depressed person can hear the Gospel presented by the Apostle Paul and hear an abyss of despair.
I won’t tell you how I know this, but you can trust me that it’s not by reading a book.
I’m sorry if I am offending you and I’m sorry for the all caps. But you have now said three times that what I am saying is not true, and I am going to vigorously disagree with you. Depressed people hear and experience distortion of messages, including the Gospel if explained by John Piper.
In fact, Piper wrote a book about that. And did a biography on William Cowper making that point.
Now, you’ve gotten to the point of saying “blasphemy,” so I think it’s time to dial it down a notch.
ms
LikeLike
“A depressed person sees and feels the world in a distorted way. A good God may seem like a hateful tyrant.
A DEPRESSED person.”
—
This, of course, is true, but it’s not what you wrote. You didn’t say that certain aspects of the Gospel are apt to be misunderstood/misapprehended by a depressed person. You said that certain “aspects of the Gospel itself” (by implication _correctly understood_) were liable to push such a person in the wrong direction. I’m sorry, but that’s simply not true.
Anyone with any sense knows that accepting the Gospel won’t magically cure clinical depression any more than it would magically cure a broken leg or multiple sclerosis (and for essentially the same reason). But if you’re afraid to tell someone who is depressed the truth about Jesus Christ because it might push them deeper into blackness then I submit that this is a sign that your “truth” isn’t true at all. It’s some blasphemous doctrine masquerading as truth.
Such as the idea that God created some human beings with the express intent, from all eternity, of consigning them to everlasting damnation in order to manifest his glory and “sovereignty”.
(Also please note: I can read, and I am perfectly capable of understanding you without BEING SHOUTED AT as if I were a particularly dull-witted student)
LikeLike
I first read Imonk by finding an essay that dealt with depression. Then I had to read the blog of the writer.
I call depression a “black Hole” in a science fiction kind of way. [imonk rolls his eyes] The further in you go the greater the gravity that pulls you deeper and makes escape harder. There is also some sort of time dilation, as minutes drag by but days escape quickly. As you reach the event horizon it just tears you apart.
Imonk says “A bunch of people tell Rogers the good news over and over. Doesn’t change your brain chemistry.” I need to disagree a little. Taking captive every thought is critical to me in coping. Finding something good and clinging to it as taught by Paul is good medicine. Our bodies produce chemicals and our thoughts do affect our bodies.
I am not speaking of bi-polar or clinical depression with danger of self harm.
My most likely unsaved dad died the week I was made Pastor. I was depressed for a couple years. Black hole depressed. I would have got drugs, but I like drugs too much to use them.
Tulips never bummed me out, but I like the rose better.
LikeLike
Addendum:
Even now I will paralyzed for days but of course being a Christian and worse a salesman I ma not permitted to suffer publicly.
If I had ALS or some other “real” disease there would be plenty of sympathy and help (not that I would wish that terrible disease on anyone).
But because my illness is one of the mind and perceived as weakness then I suffer in silence.
I wish I had a dime for every time I was told to pray more, get closer to God, buck up, be strong.
You may as well tell me to fly.
LikeLike
I have struggled with chronic and debilitating depression for as long as I can remember.
The trip to the “Christian” clinic in Dallas only relieved me of several thousand dollars.
Interestingly though I had exactly the opposite experience of treebeard in that the concept and grasp of the exchanged life have been freeing influences on me.
Galatians 2:20
LikeLike
I agree that Josh has a very helpful observation. Our congregation is about half way into Rick Warren’s Celebrate Recovery, which Michael mentioned as helpful in his “eating crow” post on Warren. I like the program and the tie-in with the 12-step emphasis. In light of Josh’s observation, I wonder if something like that, which I find helpful, would be helpful to someone dealing with depression? I suppose it would depend on the person, but I don’t see Celebrate Recovery as a tool for dealing with depression, but more with sin in our lives.
LikeLike
May I share a little personal experience here? Depression (in the medical sense) wasn’t my experience, but abuse issues were. For years I was stuck in a kind of spiritual despair — Calvinism, or at least the local species of it,left me believing that every evil thing that had happened was God’s perfect, custom-designed will for my life, and that this was what love looked like. Since my starter position had involved a lack of the human love that should have been there, I was left totally confused. One pastor told me that wanting human love was a sin, God’s love should be enough for me, but, at the same time, I couldn’t expect Him to love me in the way I wanted, because He was holy, and He didn’t actually LIKE me, because I’m a sinner. the bottom line was that everything in me that longed for tenderness and understanding was nothing but my sinful flesh, and what God required of me was to be content in Him and His “love” (even if that love seemed, from my distorted viewpoint, to look more like hatred).
I struggled for years.Now I realise that not all Calvinists would have said what was said to me, and I don’t want to paint all my Calvinist brothers and sisters as monsters — but this was my experience. Then I went to theological college and started studying things more deeply, and decided, for theological reasons, that I no longer believed in Calvinism. The immediate consequence (which I hadn’t anticipated) was that my misery and despair began to lift. now I could believe that certain events were the result of man’s free-will to evil in a fallen world, and not God’s deliberate purpose for my life. i could believe in a God who is on the side of the oppressed and who binds up the broken-hearted. The difference that has made to my life is enormous!
LikeLike
Thomas:
A depressed person sees and feels the world in a distorted way. A good God may seem like a hateful tyrant.
A DEPRESSED person.
ms
LikeLike
“some aspects of the Gospel itself may cause a depressed person to struggle or even despair.”
Sorry to deluge everyone with comments, but I meant to quote this in my original comment and it somehow got dropped (it was where the angle brackets are).
It’s this statement that I was quarreling with.
I will now leave everyone in peace.
LikeLike
Scott,
“With all due respect” indeed. It is perhaps a bit presumptuous for you to tell someone you have never met (and whom you have completely misunderstood) that he is ignorant. In this particular case, in fact, you are dead wrong, if you mean to imply that I don’t have sufficient personal experience of clinical depression to be able to understand it.
Of course, you may have been referring to my more general, all-encompassing ignorance. In which case I can only say, fair enough.
LikeLike
iMonk,
Unfortunately, you don’t seem to have grasped the point I was trying to make (although in fairness I must admit I could have been clearer). All I wanted to say is that if your presentation of the Gospel makes someone feel _worse_, then it might just be possible that there is something wrong with the Gospel you are presenting. Like maybe you’ve got part of it wrong. Maybe.
I am well aware that depression is, in many and perhaps in all cases, a disease. What I said has nothing to do with blaming the victim of that disease – it has to do with my deep conviction that Calvinism is bad, bad news. And that seems perfectly on topic for this post/thread/what-have-you. So why you slapping me down, brother?
LikeLike
Josh — that’s a great story. A good friend and mentor went through a similar transformation — he just says that he became happy and started making spiritual progress when he stopped being God. I finally got what he was saying when I recognized that flaw in myself. I kept checking myself out — and others (and even God) — to see if I am acceptable by the “belief system” I decided was the right one. But who am I to make that decision? If I and other people are in this created world and are the way we are and God’s not doing anything about it (at that moment anyway) who am I to say it’s not acceptable in His sight. If I don’t like it I can leave, but it could be me with the problem.
Whatever the Scriptures are for, they are certainly not there for me to replace God on the Throne.
LikeLike
While I believe that God cares about those in the gallery too, I’m pretty sure he cares more about those who are still struggling to find and get to know Him. And I’d also be willing to argue with those in the gallery that a biblical understanding of “truth” has a lot more to do with our treatment of others than with doctrine.
LikeLike
Josh,
That’s an outstanding observation, and one that needs to be explored. Of course, I can already hear the gallery’s answer to that. “Truth or Insanity? TRUTH!”
ms
LikeLike
>…Don’t be so sensitive, Imonk…
Wrong answer.
LikeLike
A few years ago I had a long conversation with a physician/psychologist who had originally come from an evangelical background but left it behind mainly because of his repeated experiences with the rigidness that so many evangelicals displayed in dealing with their own sin and those of others. He eventually came to a point where he saw the entire emphasis on sin (and all the repercussions of what it meant to be under God’s judgment) as something that was highly likely to lead people into neurotic thinking and behavior. Today he still believes in God and describes himself as a follower of Jesus but he refuses to talk about God in any other way than God’s unconditional acceptance of all. It made me wonder whether we ever even consider the psychological effects of our teaching, or simply focus on orthodoxy and correctness without caring whether the good news really can be heard and understood as something “good” by the way we present it.
LikeLike
Don’t be so sensitive, Imonk I meant no disparagement. I was trying to head off those who would over analyze and say “his non-belief system is really just this one warmed over.” You’ve got a great thing going here. I’m learning an awful lot.
LikeLike
>….— on this particular blog especially —
Well I know a simple solution for that one.
LikeLike
Dave — Faith is exactly not a system. “Belief system” is an oxymoron that theologians and professors of comparative religions use.
Any explanation of what I’m trying to say — on this particular blog especially — will be identified as a particular “belief system” by name and then we can all Google it and read about on Wikipedia. And it will be news to me.
Don’t worry — pray. Then just believe.
LikeLike
I was in a place that I thought I’d never get out of. After I completed my atheist childhood and adolescence successfully resisting all efforts by friends and neighbors to convert me to Roman Catholicism I had private experiences that convinced me that God exists and that Jesus has something to do with that. Two years later I had a dramatic experience with Catholic Charismatics early on in the Movement. Within a year I became completely lost and confused as to where I ended and God began and could have easily slipped into psychotic oblivion.
But then I had a dream that I was in a deep vortex of spiral escalators all going down. As I scanned this abysmal labyrinth I started to think I could work my way up and out. And then I saw him — a Moses like figure complete with beard, robe and staff standing stoutly up and across from me on landing in the midst of the myriad downward moving stairways. I could see that no matter which way I took, I would have to come to that landing, and I knew by the way he stood there looking at me that he would just keep pushing me down with his staff. I surrendered to my fate.
At that very moment Jesus appeared before me clearly as a living rendition of the what I now know to be the Divine Mercy portrait I had seen on prayer cards. He said to me, “Just look at my face.” I did this gladly and instantly I was out on a warm sunny day in a playground. I just turned and walked away. Then I awoke.
I understood the message in the imagery and used it to get out of my psychological/situational predicament at the time and many since. It was nearly two decades later, in the midst of a bitter divorce when my wife of all that time and mother of my four wonderful children was going off her own deep end, that I began to attend 12-Step meetings and found out that these people knew about the message in the dream and had codified it into the first three steps.
LikeLike
Surfnetter,
Just believe what? Everybody’s beliefs fit in a framework or system of some kind, even if it’s an eclectic mixture that doesn’t hang together very well.
Are you saying some (most? all?) of the depression people experience is because their beliefs follow a system? One of the established systems like Calvinism, Wesleyanism, Buddhism, evangelicalism, …ism?
I know I’m putting words in your mouth, and I pretty sure I’m missing your point. Help me out here! 🙂
LikeLike
Maybe helps more after coming out and looking back at what was damaged while lost in the fog. It’s actually hard to remember exactly what I thought or felt during those times, except dark and stuck.
LikeLike
I drank the Calvinism koolaid, and haven’t thrown it up yet. Not even a twinge. I’ve struggled with depression for years and use medication to keep it mostly under control. In the dark times that still occasionally pop up I find comfort in the idea that God has hold of me, and that my ultimate destiny is not determined by my performance when my world has almost ground to a halt. Hopelessness is one of the biggies in those times of depression, and knowing God is in control helps.
LikeLike
Having been under an MD’s care for depression (took Lexapro for a year or so, Treebeard. Pretty weird coming off of that stuff!), and attempting to live without the meds, I can say that there is very little understanding or compassion from the rank-and-file of Christians around me. Nor from the pulpit. Only from a couple of friends who had also experienced it. They were far more help than anyone else, in fact!
I’m not Calvinist, but even believing that God’s grace makes up for all my inability to serve Him rightly has not been much help in those times I wanted to hang myself or something. But, I also suspect that it’s been His active grace that kept me from doing so.
I seriously look forward to the Kingdom when we’ll all be healed of this kind of stuff.
LikeLike
I believe that any system of belief can and will lead to a deep psycho/spiritual pit from which there is no escape — unless and until the trapped one is willing to give up systems and just believe.
LikeLike
I have seen too many “reputable ministries” making light of anxiety disorders, depression, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder (etc.) to believe that this man’s experience is uncommon. In fact, it’s been part of my own life, to a certain extent.
For me personally, finding the right meds was key. So was starting to be able to let go of the intense perfectionism that seems to be so deeply rooted in much American Protestant culture and theology. Even worse was the condemnation from some fellow Christians, who believed that my depression could be “fixed” via repentance, deliverance from demonic oppression (etc. etc. etc.; am sure you can fill in the blanks).
How strange that we spend so much time and effort fighting our very humanity. If and when we come to some peace about the fact that God loves us as we are, and that his grace, mercy and forgiveness are always available, we might just have a chance at living reasonably happy – and sane – lives as Christians. It has taken me many years to get to this place, and I would hate to see anyone else go through the utterly unnecessary suffering that was part of that journey…
Seeking good clinical people (and a careful evaluation and screening to rule out purely physical/organic problems that might be causing undue anxiety and depression) is crucial.
LikeLike
Treebeard makes an interesting point. It reminds me of the character Johannes in Bo Gierst’s “Hammer of God”, who despaired on his deathbed because at the end of his life his heart still wasn’t 100% pure.
I wish I could say Luther had the magic answer, but what I have read of “Bondage of the Will”, even he struggled with despair when contemplating predestination. Maybe Gerhard Forde had a better answer when he suggested that hard teachings like predestination should drive us to the cross, where Christ can truly be found. He is not found in the abyss of endless theological debates. Quoting again from “Mr. Blue”, Christ came to save us from the burden of the infinite. It’s ok to be a creature and leave the burden of the unponderables to our Creator. I guess that sounds like a cop-out, but to me it sounds like faith, courage. Consider the birds of the air; the lillies of the field?
Our brokenness and seemingly bottomless capacity to screw things up should also drive us to the cross, to Christ. Failures are not an omen that we are not among the chosen; it just means we are in need of a Physician.
But I will be the first to admit that there are no easy answers for depression. I’m glad that there is more openness about the subject, and that it is a more common experience among middle-age men than first thought.
LikeLike
I know this will sound very insensitive and harsh and honestly it is, but I used to think that depressed people were weak, undisciplined, lazy, and biblically ignornant people who just needed to “get right with God.”
Then I became depressed.
Not just down, mind you. Depressed. For the uninitiated there is a mountain of difference. It was a dark hole covered by a dark cloud where the sun never shone. For about a year I suffered in this condition and fought to keep myself together for family and work. It was not until I sought the gentle guidance of a professional counselor that I was able to see myself through this.
From time to time I feel myself sliding back down that dark hole. I grab hold of the things I was taught to keep myself out. So far, so good.
With all due respect to Thomas (and others who might join the conversation), his comment proves his ignorance. I won’t be too critical because years ago I would have said similar things. But these kind of thoughts from Christians will always be true until we see mental illness as just that – illness. Regardless of whether it is depression, anxiety disorders (like Obsessive Compulsive Disorder), bipolar, etc., we will not be able to love people who suffer these affirmities with the gospel until we see it for what it is – disease and brokeness of the most devastating sort and not a character flaw.
LikeLike
Maybe there is too much truth in the saying that the church is the only organization that shoots its wounded. Thanks for the review.
LikeLike
Sad, but true. Many of us know a beloved PCA pastor who took his own life in the despair of depression. A much loved pastor who had helped many.
I’ve had two close Christian friends kill themselves. Depression is no respecter of theology. It’s all the pit when you are depressed.
I’ll predict this discussion thread will demonstrate that some Christians will always blame the sick person and call meds sinful.
LikeLike
I’m glad he wrote the book and I hope to read it.
While I too have suffered from clinical depression in the past, I don’t think it had much to do with predestination.
However, I had a good friend, Owen, in college who struggled deeply with predestination. He wanted to take it to its final and logical conclusion. He moved from Calvinism to what we called “hyper-Calvinism,†to fatalism. He was becoming more and more dismayed and confused. Then, while home on Christmas break in 1976, Owen leaped in front of a freight train outside Nashville and was crushed to death.
LikeLike
thomas:
Depressed people aren’t doing theology.
A bunch of people tell Rogers the good news over and over. Doesn’t change your brain chemistry.
peace
ms
LikeLike
If I can make an addendum, a further aspect of the inner life teachings is the tripartite nature of man (body, soul, spirit). See for example Watchman Nee’s “The Spiritual Man.” Endeavoring to “live by the spirit” and “die to the soul life” is not healthy if you’re depressed all the time.
LikeLike
In my experience, nothing makes depression worse than the “inner life” teachings (also called “higher life,” and associated with the Keswick Convention). These teachings stress the subjective aspects of Christ’s death and resurrection, i.e. our need to “die with Christ” in our daily experience so that we can “live in resurrection.” I won’t go into detail here, but these sorts of teachings and subjective experiences can lead to intense condemnation and paralysis.
(For an early example, look at Madame Guyon. She was so subjective that she almost seems nuts.)
Personally, I still struggle with the fact that Lexapro did so much more for me than my prayers for relief. But I also consider it an answer to my prayers.
LikeLike
<>
Can this possibly be true? Can the good news actually drive someone to despair?
Come to think of it, I suppose it may have done for the rich young man. But that’s not what you’re getting at here, is it?
If you give someone (who is open) the message of the Gospel as clearly as you can and their reaction is _despair_ (as opposed to joy, or indifference, or angry rejection, or almost anything else) then I would say your version of the Gospel is, has got to be, deeply wrong.
Or am I missing something?
LikeLike
In the interest of fairness, Rogers becomes a Calvinist after his depression passes. He should write a book about that.
LikeLike
Wow. I thought I was the only person in the world who was driven to despair by TULIP.
I was an ignorant, semi-Pelagian mutt-Protestant of 16 years when I met my first Calvinist. Calvinism turned my world inside out. I ran a gamut of experiences with this new information. At first I argued against it because it didn’t jive with my understanding of free will. Then I studied scripture with new eyes and decided to drink the TULIP koolaid for a while and see what I thought of it. Initially I was really grateful to be chosen; one of the elect. But as time wore on I began to distrust God. I was angry with him for every awful thing that came my way. The more I looked at scripture, the more I became convinced that double-predestination was extra-biblical and logical to a fault. I took a little time off from church because I didn’t know of any church that taught what I believed. Long story short, I eventually discovered single-predestination in the Lutheran confessions. I found a God that I could trust and rely on.
Calvinism got rid of my semi-Pelagianism but it nearly destroyed my faith. Lutheranism has enabled me to trust God more than ever before.
LikeLike
Calvinism would make anyone depressed!
Peace.
LikeLike