I’m not trying to promote a pile-on here, but this story effectively points out something I’ve experienced many times.
It’s a story about Christians justifying rudeness with religion. Here’s the short version, but you’ll want to read all of what the original poster had to say.
My daughter, taking a break from her pursuit of a graduate degree, is a server at the Chili’s a few miles down from our house. Like many others her age she is already pretty critical of the church and its obvious hypocrisies. Her cynicism, that to say, is neither atypcial nor incomprehensible. Nor does this kind of thing help–her or others.
A group of six church-goers came in last night after their evening services and sat down, not in her area but in another server’s. When the girl came to greet them and take their drink order, one of them said, “We want to tell you up front that we will not be tipping you tonight because…”
Are you ready?
“…we do not believe in people working on Sunday.”
The girl was taken full-aback, stammered out something that sounded like “I wouldn’t have to work on Sunday if so many church people didn’t come in,” or some such. She was furious. So was the manager of the restaurant whom she summoned to deal with them. I think he should have tossed the people out on their…uh…Bibles. To his credit, and demonstrating something like agape all around, he did say to them, “Well, we don’t believe in making our people work for nothing, so I will be serving you tonight.” And he did. God bless him.
This interests me for several reasons.
1) Many years ago, I took my youth group into a restaurant. A group of my students dumped a salt shaker on the table. I didn’t know about this until a waitress- an atheist- wrote me and unloaded on me for this kind of behavior from a church group. At the time, I was annoyed, but over time I’ve been a lot more sympathetic.
2) What are people thinking when they justify rudeness to an individual- and in these terrible financial times!- with a religious justification?
3) The “church crowd” is generally dreaded by all waiters and servers for reasons like this and worse. How do you take all the words people hear about being “a good witness” and translate it into not tipping, making messes, being rude and demanding?
4) Is this a window into the personalities of Christians to the extent that we can explain our tolerance of things like abuse, cruelty, dishonesty and lying with the same factors? Is it evidence that we aren’t transformed on even the most basic levels, but are using religion to cover up our sin, rudeness and cruelty?
Open thread. Keep it civil and stay on topic. If you find a way to argue denominations on this one, I’m closing the post 🙂
The Internet Monk Archives 
Good Grief!…I was just about to make the mistake of trying out waitressing. Thank you all for the warning.
Yeah, group dynamics are tricky aren’t they? Generally, people seem to act badly more so in groups as opposed to individually.
It seems to me that good manners and consideration of others is a result of good up-bringing. I’ve been in the church most of my life and I really haven’t seen a person’s basic tendencies change much after they become a christian. (Oh dear, did I just open that can of worms?)
It’s true that to become a servant of The Most High is the highest position …but also the lowest. Sometimes we forget that we are to become servants to servants also.
Fr Ernesto, I appreciated all your comments.
And I thank everyone for provoking me to get on my knees and thank God for identifying with us in the person of Jesus. Spurring each other on to do better is a good thing and I pray that we can forgive each other as well.
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No more can you judge a table of church goers as representing all Christians, than believing that all Muslims are in a jihad…unfortunately the world judges any large group by the 1% that make the headlines.
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I am glad that most Christians I know do not behave this way. Most I know are quite generous and go above and beyond the average when it comes to tipping. I realize that there are “religious” folks who get catagorized as Christians but I think it was Jesus that said you would know if they are Christians by the way they act. You can be the judge—-after all, Jesus said we could judge actions, right?
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I’ve gotten into the habit of tipping 25% or more (unless the service is truly horrific), just as an attempt to make up for the “modern Pharisees” who under-tip or don’t tip at all. Also, I remember working as a busboy before going off to college, back when the minimum wage (which I was making) was $3.50 an hour — I probably made a third of my money from tips. Do unto others …
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Christopher Lake
“As far as your doing home improvements on Sunday, if you’re not a Sabbatarian, why are you asking me? Why does it matter what I think?”
“About the last question in my comment, it’s asked with a matter-of-fact tone, not an irritated one.”
It was a question asking an opinion of the group, not for you specifically.
Although you did skip over my comments on how using the products of our industrial age is asking someone to work on Sundays. Almost anything made of chemicals, metals, etc… is made of a continuous process these days. 😉
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And I think if I’d overheard people attacking the waitress like that, I’d have chewed them out, and offered to tip her for them. ‘Least I hope I would have.
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Not really on the topic of why people get all self-righteous (like the Jews in the early part of Romans–do you who judge others not rob temples, commit adultery etc.), but it seems to me that tipping extra on Sunday would be a good practice. I mean if you found out your waitress was working on her birthday, wouldn’t you tip extra? So why shouldn’t we say “sorry for making you work on Sunday. Here’s a little extra tip.”
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Here’s a question. How does Christ unite His church when there is such a broad stroke of thoughts and viewpoints on this simple issue?
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Well, I’m a bit late to this thread, but I would view such behaviours as inherently uncivilised, in addition to the more obvious hypocracy etc. I recently wrote a little series on “Being civilised” at my blog – it does seem that Christians often do not understand this concept. The motivation for such boorishness is difficult to gauge, but as some mentioned here, it could spring from some feeling of entitlement. But in The Screwtape Letters, CS Lewis has a wonderful section on a person who behvaes in such a way – on the one hand proclaiming how little they demand, but on the other being a real pain about it (I only want tea and toast, but the tea must be just right, and the toast just so, otherwise please take it back…). False humilty is horrid pride. It also occurs to me that these people, irrespective of their beliefs, forgot that The Greatest of these is Love.
Side issue: Tipping etiquette differs from place to place – outside N America, it is often only 10%, and varies with quality. The variance I learnt (in Africa) was to tip the ordinary percentage for adequate service, greater than that for good service, smaller than that for lesser service. But always with kindness and understanding. It is possible to voice your displeasure (about reasonable objections, mind you), in a kind way. Don’t be a boor, or a cad, ever.
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Missed this opening statement of Sue’s first time around:
think sometimes maybe this is part of the problem, this insistence that the Christian life is all about being shiny all the time, instead of acknowledging and accepting the more “negative†of our emotions? — Sue
Shiny Happy-clappy Christians are just as far out of balance as the Dystopian Crapsack World types, just in the opposite direction. And their Sweet Shininess is surface-shallow, with no strength behind it — what happens when Tash kicks in the door of their Thomas Kincade cottage?
A writer contact in Louisville told me once of hearing Mike Yaconelli (or someone associated with him) pose the question “Have you considered depression to be your spiritual gift?” He spoke of the strong “negative” emotions often being what powered art and writing, giving depth and counterpoint, and how the Shiny Happy-clappy 24/7 image had probably driven the real artists and writers (such as the next C.S.Lewis) away from the church.
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I could feel it whenever I attended them, the hypocrisy that comes naturally from knowing you are not really in a safe environment in which to utter the things that occur to your heart and mind. — Sue
“Swear alliegance to the Flag,
Whatever Flag they offer;
Never let on what you really feel…”
— Mike and the Mechanics, “Silent Running”, 1986
And the effort required in maintaining that sort of a balancing act produces people who are strained to the ends of their leashes. — Sue
Until the strain of that balancing act eventually drives them crazy in one of two ways:
1) They bail if at all possible and go as far as they can in the other direction. (In abusive Christian contexts, this usually results in total atheism and/or hedonism in a violent “Take Your God And Shove It!” reaction.)
2) They become Good Little Party Members, surviving by being more Dogmatic than everybody else. (In abusive Christian contexts, this produces a Fred Phelps — or even a Beyond Fred Phelps.)
Again, frequent commenter J Michael Jones over at Christian Monist has written extensively on this Dualism.
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@ bruised reed. I love your honesty 🙂 I think sometimes maybe this is part of the problem, this insistence that the Christian life is all about being shiny all the time, instead of acknowledging and accepting the more “negative” of our emotions?
Because I grew up in a repressive family where nothing was spoken of and everything was swept under the carpet, and there was great judgment and criticism from my emotionally distant father. And many church services remind me of that same dynamic. I could feel it whenever I attended them, the hypocrisy that comes naturally from knowing you are not really in a safe environment in which to utter the things that occur to your heart and mind.
And I think that that environment breeds exactly the sorts of people who then get about living this dualistic sort of experience where they have to pretend they are a whole lot of things they’re not, and pretend they’re not a whole lot of things they are. And the effort required in maintaining that sort of a balancing act produces people who are strained to the ends of their leashes.
Sorry for vomiting on your comments again, imonk 🙂
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4)
Yes.
The conviction grows stronger and stronger and stronger that we are, like that Laodicean church, unable to see. For a whole stack of reasons, not least of which is our prosperity. How insufferably arrogant – and yet, how undeniably human. It is what we all do, isn’t it? Lower others to raise ourselves? “We are in the elect. If you were, you wouldn’t be here working today and serving us, who are in the elect, forcing you to work today” 🙂 It’s like people having right assumptions about the welfare mentality of some homeless people, and then feeling justified in sneering in contempt at them. It makes me wonder how little we understand the cross, in terms of dismantling the scapegoat sentiments we subscribe to every day of our lives to drag ourselves above each other to get some air.
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About the last question in my comment, it’s asked with a matter-of-fact tone, not an irritated one. 🙂
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Ky boy but not now,
In answer to your questions: I don’t drive anywhere at any time, as I have a physical disability which prevents me from driving a car. Regarding the “water” and “traffic light” examples, would those not be works of necessity? Most people can and do *have* to drive to go anywhere in today’s Western world, including to church on Sunday, and traffic lights are necessary for people to be able to safely drive. Therefore, the people who operate traffic lights are performing a work of both necessity and mercy. The same principle would seem to apply regarding water.
I never said that *no one* should work on Sunday. Some people must, in order for our world to keep running. Works of necessity.
About buying bread on Monday, I’ll have to give more thought to that one. The making of bread on Sunday for grocery stores might well be a work of necessity and mercy too, in today’s world, where one thing is so dependent on another, as part of a huge, inter-connected process.
As I said in my earlier post, in any event, Sabbatarian or not, I would not go out to eat on Sunday and then *condemn* the very people who were serving me.
As far as your doing home improvements on Sunday, if you’re not a Sabbatarian, why are you asking me? Why does it matter what I think?
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As a very small counter to all of the previous horror stories:
A prof at my alma mater, Wheaton, by the name of Dr. Jerry Root has always claimed he doesn’t have the gift of evangelism, even though anyone who spends five minutes with him can clearly see that he does. One day, he was having lunch with another faculty member at a local restaurant. Just the two of them, and the bill was probably $20 total.
He left a $20 bill as a tip for the waitress. When asked why by the other faculty member, he said, “because she’ll remember me the next time I come in and ask me why, and it will be an opportunity to share the gospel”. He was spending his money generously on opportunities to explain Christ’s generosity to him. I heard this firsthand over 10 years ago and have never forgotten it.
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This thread is refreshing. I’ve read too many blogs where the assumption is that Christians are inherently more moral and ethical than non-Christians.
My point has always been that atheists can treat their neighbor every bit as nicely as a Christian — and that if we see no difference when we look at the fruits, what is Christianity but a mere get-out-of-jail-free card?
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I am reminded of a Christian book I read for some reason called “Save Money any Way you Can” or something like that. It’s been awhile so the details are fuzzy but one of the stories involved a coach or some such intimidating the non-English-speaking owner of a buffet with a fake legal-looking document and getting some kind of deal for his hulking entourage who proceeded to clean out most of the food. This was commended as clever and funny. The rest of the book was mostly justifications for why you don’t have to feel guilty for taking advantage of technicalities and special offers.
The end had a virtuous bit about how the author needed to save money to be able to sponser a child through Compassion International. Let alone that this cost at the time $24/month and wasn’t exactly a bank-breaker for someone who apparently was able to eat out and regularly buy new clothes for his wife. . .Making other people sacrifice so you can donate the money saved to charity just doesn’t seem meritorious somehow. “Shall I give to the Lord that which cost me nothing?”
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Someone mentioned only ancedotal evidence that post church christians are cheap. Here is a recent study that has some real data to back it up. The summary is on a site some(many) of you may have problems with but there is a link in it to orginal. His write up seems fair to me.
http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/01/19/would-you-pay-for-something-if-you-didnt-have-to/
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With this article in my mind, I can tell you that I bent over backwards to be kind to the waiter who served us our pancakes at the diner we visited after church!
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Wow quite a thread – good post. I’ve heard stories like this one, although I’ve not seen it personally. Waitresses are obviously our neighbors and you learn a whole lot about a person by the way they treat someone in a “lesser” station. I always heard tipping is a good barometer for dating. Does that person across the table treat the waitress well or not? If not they may treat you that way sometime. Something to think about before you get serious.
Interesting some have pointed out how it undermines evangelism, doubtless very true. Successful evangelism is really a challenge, any pretense poisons it. It’s example that really works. I try to keep that in mind, especially now that I have kids I’m struggling to be more polite.
“I would make a point here about American Christians and their selective compassion towards children, but that would get me hounded. Figure it out yourself.”
I think I know where you’re going with this and that would be brave, fascinating and difficult. I think just like the weak example we may give in a restaurant the weak example we give on one of the most important causes there is also undermines us, if I understand you rightly.
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“3) … How do you take all the words people hear about being “a good witness†and translate it into not tipping, making messes, being rude and demanding?”
====================================================
Love is the best witness, but
many people have selective hearing or don’t read The Gospel, and so they do not know what Christ says about LOVE.
*AND*
Us Evangelicals are rarely ever taught HOW to be good witnesses (via Salt Shaker Ministry etc). We are however,taught how to vote, volunteer, tithe… and fix our personal problems etc.
PLUS many restaurant abusers don’t know what sabotage is done to their food… !
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It always bugs me that Christians are horrible tippers!
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Just as a contrast with other Sabbath-keepers, an Orthodox Jewish friend of mine has explained to me the principle of not burdening gentiles with one’s obligations (so, for instance, you can’t just hire gentile servants to do your housework for you on Shabbat anymore–but I have learned that if I’m visiting her on Saturday and she says “Is it warm in here?”, I should go turn up the air conditioner….)
Anyway, she told me about a serviceman who could only make his call on a Monday that happened to fall during Rosh Hashanah, when Shabbat rules are observed. Rather than explain to him about why she couldn’t handle money then, but why it was okay with her for him to work, she just said “I can’t write a check Monday because I’m celebrating a holiday, but I’m sure the work will be satisfactory and I’ll just write you the check right now.” He was surprised but didn’t object.
Monday, as he left, she thanked him and he said, still a little bewiledered, “You’re welcome, and you have yourself a … um … great Columbus Day!”
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How much did lunch cost? If every one’s meal cost $10 a piece, $20 isn’t even 15%.
DD
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We had a group of sixteen people yesterday at a pizza shop in North Carolina. They asked us how many, we jokingly said a million. We made those people laugh, even my one year old nephew hammed it up for the employees. We didn’t ask for anything out of the way, we didn’t make ourselves known to be “CHRISTIANS”…and we didn’t leave a mess behind. I always pick up napkins, stack plates, clean up our table, and LEAVE A DECENT TIP. Yesterday our waitress was exceptional. I told her I was not used to having that kind of service, and I was glad. As we had all split the cost of pizzas…the one who spoke up for the tip left her $20. The word of God does not say do unto others as they DO TO YOU, it says; DO unto others as you would HAVE them do unto you… I don’t want people being idiots toward me. I want them to feel loved and respected; appreciated. Make them feel like a human being instead of a slave. Help them enjoy their job. Because I know how it feels to be unappreciated. It stinks.
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As an aside to your comment on worship time…three AMiA churches in DC all meet at 5pm. This is mainly due to meeting in rented buildings, but it is has also become a cultural thing that feels very different. I like it a lot more than scrambling to get up and going in the AM.
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Thank you, Sam.
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Fr. Ernesto,
You da man. And why many traditions stand when hearing the Gospels.
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Since these folks have “hijacked” the term Christian, I’m using something else.
Perhaps these stories are “anecdotal”, but I have no reason to disbelieve them. I had a catering business. Occasionally my customers were “Christians”. I also cooked hundreds of dinners for the “church” folks, for which I received no pay.
Most groups have a mix of people – some nice and some not. Overall, however, the “church” and “Christian” groups almost always have the most rude, cheap, demanding, complaining people. I don’t know why. However, I have noticed they tend to proportionately have more people who love to get a bargain and find others who will cater to their whims. Those kind of people seem to be attracted to religious organizations. Apparently they think they can find what thy are looking for in such organizations.
This is also a problem for many retail sales people. When I go to a store, I often try to find the unhappiest sales person or cashier and deal with them. I make it my personal challenge to make them smile. At Christmas a cashier in the grocery store cried after we had talked for a minute or so. She said “You are the first nice customer I have had all day. You don’t know how much that means to me.”
I rarely get poor service. Stores I patronize regularly may have no employees in sight when I enter, even though several customers are looking for an employee. An employee suddenly appears. They walk directly to me and ask how they may help me. (If someone is ahead of me, I ask the employee to help that person first.) I am always very nice, sometimes tip people who do not usually receive tips, and give commendations. Sometimes I even appear with a box of homemade cookies in hand for a sales person who was especially helpful.
My wife asked me the other day why I got a discount on some of my items when I paid for my purchases at a particular store. This happens to me often. Many stores have coupons available for certain items. Even though I don’t have one, one suddenly appears from under the counter when I pay.
The point is not that I am getting special treatment. The point is that I treat these people well, and they appreciate it, which is reflected in how they treat me. Note to most people who receive poor service: “You are probably correct. You probably do receive poor service. This frequently happens when you treat people poorly.”
I never tell clerks, sales people, auto mechanics and so on that I am a “Christian” or mention “church”. I am surprised, however, how many times I’ve been asked about these things. I’ve even been asked by people I’ve just met if I’m a pastor. I suppose my board shorts and sandals are a dead giveaway.
Treating people right is a much, much, much better witness than ANYTHING I know of.
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The whole point of the Parable of the Good Samaritan was to point out that our neighbor includes those who are completely outside the community of faith, as the Samaritans were. And, that those neighbors are to be helped. In the light of this discussion, I would like to point out that the Levite and the priest behaved exactly like the people in the story told by iMonk. It was the non-Jew who behaved like the Levite and the priest ought to have behaved.
I would also tend to add that, as far as the Orthodox are concerned, when one has to use a phrase like, “Certainly the Gospels give a broader picture of whom you should help …,” then one has already lost the argument. Among us, the Roman Catholics, and the Anglicans, the Gospel book is ceremonially processed through the congregation and its reading, during the Liturgy, is only permitted to a deacon or a priest. [I promise, all other times anyone can read the Gospels. GRIN.] To put it in more common terminology, for us, DA GOSPELS RULE!
In fact, a couple of quotes from the Early Church Fathers are apropo here. Speaking of this parable they say:
St. Bede — The Samaritan, whose name means “Defender,” stands for the Lord.
St. Ambrose — The whole human race would have fallen if that Samaritan, on His journey, had not tended its grievous injuries. . . . Who is the Guard if not He? . . . The Shepherd laid the weary sheep on His shoulders. . . . He sets us on His own beast, . . . so that through the taking on of flesh, He may abolish the weakness of our flesh. Then He led us who used to be beasts to the stable.
And finally, from the Epistles:
St. Paul — . . . while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. . . . when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son. . . .
Hebrews — Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.
Let us therefore go outside the camp also. And there let us meet the enemies, the Samaritans, the adulterous women. The Pharisees can take care of themselves.
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Some have hinted at it so far, but I think the main issue for these people was a love of money. ‘I don’t want to part with it so I’ll think up a religious justification to keep it.’
I know of Christian tradesmen who hate working for Christians who always seem to want things done cheap and shoddy, and then don’t pay their invoices on time.
Jesus talks about this love of money in Matthew 15:1 – 9:
“And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honour your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ he is not to ‘honour his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites!â€
I get the feeling these verses were been acted out in that restaurant.
How sad that the church is so full of sinners…
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Joe M.,
I agree. We only have finite resources to spread around. Obviously, taking care of those in the Body comes first. If you are eating out, however, you are not lacking in resources as evidenced by the fact that you are spending on one meal what could feed a person for days. Also, does that mean you don’t have to pay for the meal either because others need the money?
If you can’t afford to eat out and live a tip, you can’t afford to eat out or it’s Mickey D’s for you. If you have the money but are too cheap to tip… I hope you reap what you sow.
DD
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Fr. Ernesto and others,
Don’t you think that in Acts and in the Epistles, the emphasis is not on all the poor, but rather the poor within the Church? When Paul or James speaks of the poor and widowed, they speak of people already within the Church. The Us vs. Them mentality is present in the NT Church too. Certainly the Gospels give a broader picture of whom we should help, but my point is that part of the NT , especially the nuts and bolts parts, seem to emphasize taking care of your own first and foremost. Thus I can see, but not sympathize with, how Bible-believing Christians can look at outsiders and treat them differently.
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Um, Victor?
I grant you, Christians should tip their servers because that’s what Jesus would have done. Still, why should Christians not tip for service “out of gratitude to the server”? If someone has done a service for you, you SHOULD show gratitude, just because it’s right–whether you (or the server) are Christian, stheist, Moslem, Hindu, or a follower of Odin. It’s particularly important when the server is being paid less than minimum wage–as in a restaurant–and depends on tips for income.
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Victor,
can you clairify a couple points in your post for me?
You cited, what we all missed, WWJD? I think that’s great, but really you seem to get to the better point in your closing statement, WHJD? or Instead of What would Jesus do, What Has Jesus Done?
Are you contending that “the truth” and “Liar” means that there is a good chance that these people were unregenerated? “You shall know them by their fruit”?
God is beyond us even more so when we think through the law like that..
Thanks
~ blessings
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I’ve been reading through all these comments, and one thing seems missing. What would Christ, our Savior, have done at a restaurant, on Sunday? Well, he would have tried to help the Waitress, and the cook, he wouldn’t have complained, even if the order was wrong, except to ask if he could be billed for what he got instead of what he ordered. He would have cleaned up after himself, and left no mess, of any kind. He would have shared his food, even to the point of giving it to someone who couldn’t afford to eat, if that person was around. He might have praised the waitress for her service, he thought well of service, I seem to recall. He would certainly have been friendly and loving to everyone in the place, because that’s just the kind of person he was. If we believe in Christ, and him crucified and resurrected, then we have to believe he is still like that, and we should try to be like that too. If you believe that people shouldn’t work on Sunday, then offer to take the place of the waitress, so she (or he) doesn’t have to work and can still afford to live. If you aren’t willing to replace the person who is SERVING you, then you need to realize that Christ is working in him/her to provide you your daily bread and that you owe your server in His name. Christians tip, not out of gratitude to the server, but because Christ always did. Christ even gave his life, so that we could live. Can we do less? Anyone who calls himself a Christian and has condemnation or harsh words for a person who is serving him is a “liar, and the Truth is not in him”.
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As Soren Kierkegaard put it, “it’s impossible to be a Christian in Christendom.” If you think you’re already a Christian, already saved, then you don’t have to worry about changing yourself, don’t have to think about what Jesus would do. Doesn’t matter, you’re going to heaven regardless ’cause you got the doctrinal question right, and that’s what matters. I think this incident and others like it demonstrate the real danger of a “justification by faith alone” theology. It’s an easy slide into “I’ve got faith so it doesn’t matter what I do.”
Real faith should call us to try to perfect our lives and our actions, but it we’re saved only by faith (that is, by intellectual assent to whatever we’ve decided the correct doctrine is), then what impetus do we have to change, much less improve, our lives and behavior? And what reason do we have to not act in selfish, egotistical ways? We’re saved.
Kierkegaard was right, it’s impossible to be a Christian if you’re already saved, impossible to be transformed if you’re already one of the elect. Better to say, like Kierkegaard, “I’m not a Christian but am trying to become one” than “I’m a Christian and so don’t have to worry about becoming one.”
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This is pretty simple, IMO so, I offer up the following:
Top 10 Reasons Why Church Groups Act Rude to Food Servers:
10. They have a feeling that they are special. In a Chosen kind of way. (pick your theological bent & version of chosen here)
9. They are part of a group of special people, who are chosen.
8. They were treated rudely the last time they were there. (wonder why?)
7. Besides, the food server is probably living in sin anyway.
6. They’re on a Christian high -the awesome Worshiptainment Sunday send off service has wound ’em up and sent ’em out!
5. The gossip session about how ‘Johnny got caught …….†Kept them from noticing the waitress as she struggles to deal with 5 tables of people just like them ordering nothing but appetizers and 13 refills of soda or coffee.
4. Their Christian T-Shirts will act as a tool of the Holy Sprit – quickening the food server’s sprit to thirst and seek out more rude Christians like them.
3. They heard the food server is a “(insert denomination)†anyways, they are so not with it, so..who cares.
2. Several of them used to be a food server, and know how it should be done correctly anyway.
1. God will forgive them, so they can.
Seriously – I believe two dynamics are involved
Large groups, any kind, suck at tipping. Unless one person has responsibility upfront, everybody thinks the bill is less than it really is. Usually the bill is never covered.
Church groups forget – that….“God doesn’t need our love, our neighbors doâ€
Luther say’s in his small Catechism, (paraphrased) when talking about the positives of the 10 commandments – when it came to “Thou Shalt Not Stealâ€..
“We should fear and love God so that we do not take our neighbor’s money or property, nor get them in any dishonest way, but help him to improve and protect his property and business†I think this applies. We show disrespect and we steal when we expect free service like the poor food server was asked to provide.
By the way – I am still stupefied why the Starbuck’s counter person expects a tip when they hand me my coffee, for ?.. um – giving me my coffee?
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My word, I need an editor. In my first comment, I dished up this word salad: “That pastor did taught we should patronize stores on Sundays…”
It should read: “That pastor taught we should NOT patronize stores on Sundays…”
Take my tip and give it to the poor, please.
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I wonder if dispensational eschatology could have anything to do with this behavior and view of entitlement. The idea that Christians will be whisked away and spared any persections,troubles or inconvieniences while the rest of humanity is left to suffer tribulation and hell on earth.It’s just a thought.
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A couple of days ago, I was listening to a message from Steve Brown of Key Life titled “The Death of Evangelism.” He tells a story in that message about when this group of ministers (who all were big dudes that looked like they should be WWE performers) took him out to lunch. They gave the waitress a pre-tip up front (but also tipped very generously afterword) just to show the waitress that they were happy to have her serving, etc. He goes on to say that they had spent the lunch laughing, talking about Jesus, and all-in-all having a great time. Steve told them afterword that they “smelled like Jesus.”
I love that story. That’s the kind of Christian I wanna be. I’ve also seen a lot of that kinda thing in the owner of the business I work for. He ends up sharing Christ with a lot of people just because he’s friendly, respectful, likes to laugh, joke with people, and even be disarmingly irreverent in a way that’s so atypical of too many Christians.
Me, I’ve got a problem with just being the quiet guy that doesn’t like to really engage anyone, but I’m getting better… with His help 🙂
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Pretty hypocritical to go to a restaurant and make them serve you and then justify not paying by citing the “no work on Sunday” belief.
If they really don’t believe in working on Sunday, then they shouldn’t be forcing others to work by going out to eat. If you aren’t going to practice what you preach in all aspects, then you shouldn’t be preaching it.
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There are very few of us who are followers of Christ in the sense that the disciples were. We study the life of Christ in a purely academic sense which has no impact on the way we live our lives. The goal of the disciples, however, was to become just like their rabbi. They were with him 24/7 and whatever he did, they copied.
They would have never acted like the “Christian†group in the restaurant because they would have known that such behavior was directly opposed to the way of the master. Jesus taught that he did not come to be served but to serve.
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As a server my favorite example of the Christian crowd is a group who is highly demanding, unforgiving of the smallest mistake, never speaks of their faith, and then leaves a tract with little or no tip. Because their behavior, lack of generosity, and unwillingness to even vocalize their faith makes me want to read a piece of literature they left on a table.
I think if we all went to restaurants looking to love people we just might get some people to listen to the message we want to get across. If nothing else, stuff a hundred dollar bill in that tract. Someone just might listen after that.
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“The protestant work ethic that ties personal worth to attained economic status.”
Most of the Christians I know who have a real work ethic (by that I mean people who WANT to work, not just folks who need the money) understand that the folks working as servers DESERVE (usually) the money. I’ll offend some people here but..if all you’ve ever done in your life was push papers around a cubical and make Power Point presentations you don’t really know what work is. It’s easy for people who have never done it to look down on it or think it’s easy.
It’s not work ethic, or the lack thereof, that makes people do this sort of thing. It’s the fact that money means more to them than they want to admit. It’s a means to manipulate God into giving you what you want. As one person implied in an earlier thread…the only way you can give to God is by dropping it in the offering plate. Giving it to the poor, even the working poor, gets you nothing. No Jesus Points. No choices off the Holy Rewards catalog. Nothing.
DD
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octavato, I’m still trying to pick my jaw up from the floor after reading your story. I’m afraid I might have grabbed the original tip money back from that woman.
Oh John, I wonder if you haven’t hit on something quite deep, here.
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“I observe Sunday as the Christian Sabbath. I don’t believe that people should have to work on Sunday, unless it involves works of mercy or necessity (preachers, doctors, policemen, etc). Therefore, I try my best not to eat out or buy anything on Sunday. As I understand it, that is the consistent “Christian Sabbath†position.”
I applaud your beliefs but have to ask. Do you buy bread on Mondays? Since we don’t buy at the bakers but at the supermarket these days bread has to be baked on Sunday to be on the store shelves on Monday. And the list is huge.
Ditto do you drive your car ANYWHERE but to church on Sunday. Even that little drive means that the traffic lights have to be working.
Do you use water? Or wait till Monday to bath and flush?
Our modern world requires utilities to operate 24/7. And much of the things we use every day come from factories that cannot shut down for one day. They take days to shut down or turn on “nicely”. Think anything related to plastics or chemicals of any kind. And many none chemical products use chemicals to be build and thus require someone to work on Sundays.
There’s a lot of denial in people who talk about “keeping the sabbath”. I am NOT against anyone who wants to do this but wish they would understand what this really means in our world today.
As to me my “job” is not in construction in any way. And I do a lot of my home improvements on Sunday as I find it relaxing. Am I a bad Christian?
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I’ve been reading the above comments with “train wreck” fascination. I worked as a server for 3 years back in high school in the 70s, but don’t recall experiencing anything like described above. I have never known anyone from the congregations I attended to have misbehaved.
The closest non-Christian behavior I have observed was a Christian USAF Captain during Desert Storm that liked to make fun of Muslims as “ragheads” and berate their religion by chanting “muck-muck-muck” during the call to prayer. Never occured to him that perhaps he could also take a moment and pray. He’d have had a cow if he had known I was going to Mass everyday and asking God’s mercy, forgiveness, and saving grace for all those who had died or were about to die, including Saddam himself.
As a group, we should pray for all of these challenged Christians.
God bless and “always preach the gospel, when necessary use words” (Francis).
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Michael,
I remember thinking and acting like those in this story in my first several churches, which were pretty legalistic. Let me try to recreate the thinking process.
I was a sabbatarian, so I believed it was wrong to work on Sunday, except in cases of mercy or necessity. I could have gone to a restaurant in an “emergency” if something de-railed other previously made plans to eat. But…restaurant workers were there not because of an emergency, but regularly as breakers of God’s Holy Sabbath. They routinely worked there on Sunday.
Additionally, the workers (slaves to their masters, Eph. 6:5), already earned their wage in full. Extra (i.e. tip) was sheer luxury and not necessary. Being good stewards also meant using such would-be tip money for greater things in the kingdom, like printing of gospel tracts. Or, why give the waitress a monetary tip when you could give something infinitely more valuable, like a gospel tract? Dropping the money in the offering is a far better witness than giving it to a pagan.
So went the thinking for me and others I knew, and doubtless many more think that way.
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I think there is a sometimes a sense that following a “higher law” of God gives license to disregard “human” ideas about how to behave. These “Christians” truly view themselves above others even to the extent of being above the law.
A certain lay preacher in our church had been at a funeral out in the country with my husband and my husband’s dad, the pastor of our church. The lay preacher assured them he knew a short cut home since he had been in these parts many times evangelizing. He invited them to follow. It was after dark. He took off like a shot, flying down two-lane country roads at 70 mph. He could have hit a deer or anything. It also eventually became obvious that they had sped quite a few miles in the wrong direction. He pulled over and blamed the signs for being wrong. Then he sped back the way he came. My husband just let him speed away. The preacher never pulled back over.
We got to know this guy well over the next few years, naively employing him in our business, and I feel safe chalking it all up to arrogance. He was in his mind a “better” driver. He knew a “better” way. Speed limits did not apply to him. This guy was “anointed”. If the idiot behind him were to get pulled over for speeding, that would be his problem for not being all of the above.
On a side note, he later preached a message on Romans 13 (which clearly teaches that we must obey the laws of the land) and managed to make it say that we should not question his authority! He interpreted “resist not the power” as a command to submit to the power of God that is present when a preacher preaches. He also made several other stunning interpretations in this chapter. I wrote him an excruciatingly polite letter about this sermon asking if he could arrange a time for me to discuss some questions I had about it. When I didn’t hear anything from him for a week, I asked if I might have that interview. His response was, “Just drop it!”
This man still preaches though not in our church. Is he a Christian? I have no doubt that he thinks so. He stands out to me as a scary example. If he isn’t a Christian, you can be absolutely sure you are and not be. If he is, I don’t know how I would ever recognize a false teacher.
I would chalk the non-tipping behavior up mostly to the pride of the natural leaders of the group, and perhaps the meeker ones in the group at the restaurant go along because they don’t want to feel shamed by the arrogant ones for tipping. Perhaps they also don’t want to shame the dominant ones BY tipping. How can you deliver in implicit challenge to the behavior of the “anointed”? But it’s all just another face of pride–choosing how you are perceived over doing the right thing.
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If we do not obey the Word, then we do not believe it, including its claim that Jesus is God’s Son. Therefore, we are not believers. If we do believe, we obey (including I John, and others), and this does not include treating people in the ways described in these stories. Those folks may call themselves whatever they wish, but their behavior tells who their true master is. Read I John again. The conclusion is inescapable. Being religious and attending “church” does not equal being a genuine follower of Jesus.
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I used to work as a waiter, and was vocal about my beliefs and my calling while employed at the restaurant. People like this made it very hard to witness to those that I worked with. Though I never had anyone say up front that they were not leaving a tip it was very common to have a customer be very rude and condescending when asked if they wanted a beer or mixed drink, which by the way a server could be fired if they did not do. Too many times I or another server would be told, “No, I will not have a beer. I’m a Christian.”
The worst though was when someone would leave a tract with a lousy tip. Come on people, I understand your thought in leaving the tract, but it might actually get read if you left a decent tip along with. Otherwise the server thinks your a jerk and could care less what you have to say.
As for these people who refused to tip because they disagreed with people working on Sunday. This is nothing but hypocritical (and cheap), if they truly felt this way they would not have gone to the establishment in the first place. By giving the company their money on that day they are approving of the practice.
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To paraphrase an old Steely Dan song (showing my age here): the things that pass for church preaching & teaching I don’t understand.
What, exactly, are people who behave like this hearing in church? Are they in fact having the real Gospel preached to them?
I guess the real question is: What does it mean to be a “Christian” and what is the on-going spiritual formation behind that definition? Or is there even one?
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I have to say I’ve seen my share of this, though never an example as blatant as recorded in this post. I know some people who have spent their whole lives in Christian service and retired rich with mostly inherited wealth, but are stingy in the extreme and often critical of others. I have to supplement their stingy tips when we eat out. I have a next door neighbor that holds a Wed nite bible study at his house. I often either arrive home or am working in our driveway when attendees arrive, but I have yet to be greeted or approached or even smiled at by the attendees as they come and go (I don’t attend). I could give plenty more examples. And of course there’s the flip side of this in the Christian world, too: preferential treatment for large financial donors and the well connected, etc. I think there are a number of possible factors at play in this whole dynamic:
a. A sense of spiritual elitism and assurance (false, of course).
b. Taking cues from our socioeconomically stratified society rather than from scripture.
c. The protestant work ethic that ties personal worth to attained economic status.
d. Pride, and more pride.
e. The whole “deserving poor” concept that someone else mentioned, but it’s now been extended to anyone of lower socioeconomic status.
f. Laziness, because it’s easier to dismiss people than engage them or extend compassion.
g. A lack of teaching. When was the last time you heard a hard-hitting, practical sermon on our treatment of those who serve us?
h. Teaching that says witnessing is something we do sometimes and only with words (and that means not other times), rather than all the time in words and actions because you never stop being an ambassador for Jesus’ and his kingdom.
I can see tendencies and temptations in myself toward these things. I’m not rude, but I do need to reach out more — and this post made me realize how much more. I have a feeling if we don’t humble ourselves, God in his grace may just do it for us. It won’t be painless, but it’ll be better than we deserve.
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During the Advent season I told the kids in my eighth grade religious education class that if they wanted to make a difference, if they wanted to have an affect this season, just go out of their way to be nice to those folks at the cash register. Sometimes its not about witnessing or showing the world what we know of scripture, its treating others the way we would want to be treated. It is hard not to always keep the focus on our wants and needs, our entitlements, what we deserve. And I have to say, this Christmas season put me to the test of walking the walk -yet I perservered. Why? To do otherwise was to get caught up in the meanness that I saw around- the selfishness. And there were many for-a-moment moments where others actually smiled and maybe they even remembered for a moment that the season was suppose to be joyous instead of crazy.
So a short note – whether in a restaurant or elsewhere I try to teach my kids to look outward instead of focusing inward on what we want – it can make life interesting…
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Well it’s good to know that the story of the Good Samaritan is alive and kicking right now in our own Christian communities. Some people feel that they are doing the will of God just like the pharisee and Levite did. The world does not need more saved souls as much as it needs fully human images of God.
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I have read most of this thread but not all of it. Stories like this really grieve me – I’ve heard too many of them to suppose it’s overblown.
Christian brothers and sisters – we have a huge problem. Many of us are cheap and rude towards the waitstaff that serve us.
The only solution I can think of is to quit being that way. Be extremely courteous to your waitstaff. Don’t make a fuss if something’s wrong. Tip generously (20% if possible). For gosh sakes, if you’re going to leave a tract or something make sure you haven’t been an unsmiling jerk all the way through the meal.
Be kind. Be like Jesus. And I’m working on doing the same.
In coming years, let’s switch this around so that people WANT to work the Sunday rush.
Glad you wrote this post, Michael. Thanks
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Christians are sinners and therefore can certainly be jerks like anyone else, but *Christian* jerks, all too often, seem to be actually *self-righteous* about their rude behavior! I think that it’s because somehow, in some twisted way, they think they are “serving God” with their behavior… when they are really just being rude.
I’m not talking about humble, loving evangelism which may wrongly *strike* some people as being rude. To certain people, any social, public sharing of *any* religious beliefs which claim absolute truth is “rude.” Such a viewpoint is wrong. I’m talking about the kind of objectively rude behavior described in this post and in other peoples’ comments.
I observe Sunday as the Christian Sabbath. I don’t believe that people should have to work on Sunday, unless it involves works of mercy or necessity (preachers, doctors, policemen, etc). Therefore, I try my best not to eat out or buy anything on Sunday. As I understand it, that is the consistent “Christian Sabbath” position. In any event, I would never eat out and then *condemn* the very people who were serving me! Again, sheer rudeness and self-righteousness (i.e. spiritual blindness) in the guise of “serving the Lord”….
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Worship in the New covenant is a gathering of believers, but times and places are done in New Covenant freedom. Every day is God’s day when Christ has fulfilled all days.
We’re all pretty programmed with that 11 a.m. Sunday thing. But how much community ever happened at that hour? Seriously?
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I’d like to know what it is about attending a worship service that makes some Christians so deeply *angry*. Someone said upthread that perhaps they were convicted of sin during the sermon but lacked the humility to throw themselves on their faces and repent. I think you are on to something here. I know that when I have a build-up of unrepented sin, I get impatient and uncharitable.
iMonk, thank you for your explanation, I see I need to read up more on this to understand it. And yes, Sunday worship is extra-Biblical, but I would assume that not forsaking the gathering of the faithful is Biblical… ? So is attending church on Sunday still required (or expected?) or is it optional? Maybe there’s a link I can read so I don’t derail your thread any further.
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Michael,
If this doesn’t fit the topic you can delete it but I think it will in that it’s a similar situation but not in a restruant – in a church.
A few years back, at a church I used to attend, we ordained a young african american man as a deacon. He and his wife had attended a former church that merged with another and they stayed and came over with the merged congregations – this was your typical all white sbc church in the south and this man and his wife were the only african americans in the church at the time and they were the most faithful, supportive, hard working, loving and godly people and right after this young man’s ordination a comment got back to me that one of our “fine upstanding deacon gentlemen”(cough, hack, choke….)warned that we needed to “keep watch on the offering plate since we ordained that black man.” You know, I never did find out or ask the name of the person that said it and it’s probably a good thing because I’m not sure if the man would be alive and it’s a wonder he didn’t fall out the moment he made that statement!
I don’t know if that statement got back to that young man and his wife but they were the kind of folk who would not have let it be known if it had gotten back to them – those two had more of God in their pinky finger than, probably, the entire church at that point and I still turn red with anger every time I think about that being said. No, I don’t attend that church any more – left after it turned into the typical, these days, circus church. Why did I wait so long to leave – well in those days (early 1990s), while I detest what was said, I still had too much of an attacment to things sbc and sbc chuch. It’s only been in recent years that I began to see the error of my way in that approach.
Well that’s my input – what an absolute shame that a person was allowed to get away with this. Don’t know what happen to the man that made that statment but I don’t think he’s around any longer.
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IMonk, good points that are under my previous comment. Perhaps part of the issue is American Christianity’s fascination with civil religion. Mission motives and attitudes are affected. Nation building is a 21st century application. But then, expounding on those would get ME pounded! 🙂
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Willoh: There is something there….. I think a lot of it comes from lack of discipleship. We changed the Great Commission from “Go and make disciples” to “Go and make converts” (I think the iMonk said that, but I could be wrong) 🙂
These are things a new convert might fall into…. but not a mature disciple of Christ.
I do believe in free grace….but the bible talks way too much about the fruit that results to say that someone who shows no signs of moving toward living like Christ is ok.
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The problem is they call themselves Christians!
Once, when talking to an orthodox Jew about beliefs, I mentioned in passing that, in general, the Crusades were an example of evil working within a Christian context. I outlined some of the worst aspects of these conflicts and concluded with the statement: it’s obvious that the people involved, were not following the teachings of Christ. He responded: ‘ … but your problem is: they called themselves Christians.’
A few years back, I spent some time in Jerusalem. I would regularly walk from my lodgings to the Old City. One day, I noticed a nondescript Arab handing out Bible tracts, but who was being largely ignored by the hoards of Christian tourists, mostly Americans, visiting the ‘holy’ lands. The next day, following my normal routine, I passed him again – and stopped, as he held out his hand. I said, ‘I noticed you, here, yesterday’, – he responded, ‘I remember you.’ I asked him, ‘Where are you from, why are you here?’ .He replied, “I’m a carpenter and handy man from Nazareth, but there’s little work for me there. My son is sick (leukemia from memory) and the medicine he requires is expensive. I came here some time ago, hoping to find work in one of the many Christian hostels, while not looking for work, I stand here handing out Bible tracts. Usually, no-one is interested – yet, that’s okay because it could be worse, other Palestinians verbally abuse me, but the Imams are the worst, they come up and slap my face”. I said, ‘ – does not anyone come to assist you, when that happens?’ Guess the answer. The problem is that the passing crowd, call themselves Christians! [Luke 10:30-37, comes to mind.] I gave him the little I could; and he then left to return to his waiting family in Nazareth. (His departing prayer for me, was the greatest blessing I received, while in the ‘holy’ lands.)
A great part of Western culture; and in particular, the American flavor is seen as Christian (or post-Christian); yet, it’s viewed as being responsible for exporting the worst economic storm in human history. Tens of millions will become unemployed – one would think, that actions arising to resolve the problems would have a global focus – but no, they are self-centered, nationalistic programs – the problem is, they call themselves, and are seen, as Christians.
In response to the question: ‘I guess I’m prepared to say that the question of their profession of faith is beyond me, but the question of how you disconnect Jesus’ teaching and example from your own behavior is one that even real Christians ought to explore.â€
“You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit – fruit that will last… This is my command. Love each other.†God calls you and gives you, your ‘name’ – and by your fruit – you will be known. We don’t call ourselves Christians – God does 🙂
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Sorry, I don’t know what anyone might be thinking when they behave as described. I don’t know what could possibly motivate such ridiculous hypocrisy. I’ve never known anyone in my 20+ years of being an active Christian that exhibited anything approaching this kind of behavior.
I don’t mean to imply that the story isn’t true, but I don’t know what motivates such idiocy and I’m not sure I would want to know.
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Regarding keeping “the” sabbath – I, and I’m sure plenty of others reading this, – have to work on the sabbath because I – drumroll, please – work at a church!
Anybody who feels that they can yell at people for “not keeping sabbath” should consider what they themselves would do if they arrived at church one Sunday morning to find the doors locked and a note that said, “Sorry, no services today. I’m keeping sabbath like the Bible says. Love, Your Pastor.”
The point of sabbath is – I think, anyway – a time to rest. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And if you feel called to keep sabbath in any sort of dedicated manner, do you really think that the God of grace and mercy, the God who on the day of preparation for the sabbath ate with Judas, Peter, and Thomas, really cares what day of the week you pick to rest in him? Yeah, I don’t.
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octavato,
not wanting to be harsh but, it took you a couple of months???
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Pretty incredible. How can people be so blind to the absurdity of their own actions? This is where “Religiosity” got its material.
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octavato, again I’m speechless. What bizarro universe are these people from?
Monk, I’ve been around a lot of Christian craziness, but some of these stories are incredible. I thought I’d heard it all.
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The worst experience I ever saw was when I went out one Sunday evening with some fellow church people (in a church I USED to attend). The waitress treated us well and was very gracious and courteous. One of the fellow church people decided to ‘witness’ to her and she tactfully told us that she didn’t go to church.
That changed the atmosphere of the fellowship.
As we finished our meal and left the table, I got a couple of dollars out of my pocket and placed it under my plate to tip the waitress as the other fellow church people went straight towards the register without leaving a tip. As we got to the register, one of the ladies told her husband that she would be right back. We all assumed that she needed to go to the ladies room. Everyone else thought nothing of it but I turned around and saw this woman go back to the table, pick up my plate and take my tip money and came back to the register.
She then approached me and I confronted her as to why did she take the money I gave to the waitress as a tip. Her response….
“It’s not your money, it’s God’s money. And we don’t bless heathens with God’s money. Blessing heathens with God’s money curses us” She pulls out a tithe envelope from her purse and places the tip money in it and proclaimed at how she was going to redeem this money for God and place it in the plate next Sunday morning and keep ‘curses’ from coming on my life and the church.
Therefore, the mentality shown was “Since the waitress was not a Christian, she did not deserve a tip”.
We are still in the line to pay when the waitress walks by. I pulled two more dollars out of my pocket and asked the waitress to come over and I gave the waitress the two dollars and told her what happened and that I thought her service was good and that she deserved her tip from me even if no one else tipped to the indignant stares of the other fellow church people. The waitress thanked me for the tip and walked off.
We walked out the restaurant and I was given the cold shoulder by the fellow church people.
The following Sunday after church, one of the ushers came up to me and asked me to please explain this tithe envelope with the words “(real first name omitted) Redeemed Tip Money” printed on it. I explained that first of all, it was not my handwriting but the woman who took my tip and explained the story what happened at the restaurant that last Sunday evening. The usher’s reaction….
GOOD FOR HER…..
I knew there was a serious dysfunction at that church and I left that church a couple of months later (not over this event in particular but over an accumulation of events) after I found a new one.
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Maybe people can be nice and generous for just so long. After donating money at the church service, now they are asked to be generous to the dang waitress. Imagine that.
My question is: so after being at church and communing with the Lord (either through His Word, Communion, or the “where 2 or more are gathered,”) how come I am not a better person when I get home? It is almost like I can let down the good christian facade and start being a jerk again.
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” I thought we were talking about how people who hear constant reminders of the importance of being a witness to Jesus excuse themselves from being one?”
The meanest people in my life were the ones who use the phrase, ‘lose your witness’. Unfortunately they have not been taught what that truly means.
“Witness” is not about legalism, unfortunately it is taught that way. All the people in the above stories thought they were good witnesses! here’s why.
They did not drink booze, none.
They did not curse, not even poo-poo or pee-pee
They did not expose too much skin for fashion
They did not associate with sinners [I know]
They have a list of people who behave in ways they can condemn. Christians!
The truth is if you are down on your luck you will get more sympathy in a bar room than a church. At least until you run out of money.
And yes Imonk , I’ll own this, I am saying that Christians do not act this way. The promise was that our heart of flint would be removed and a new heart of flesh put in. We would have the mind of Christ. Sure we are going to mess up, but if we are cold hearted lizardy things all day every day we have not Jesus. Can’t, just can’t. We would be like a tree with no fruit, good only for cursing. If the Holy spirit indwells you, there will be evidence. Perhaps not 24/7 but a group of people acting that way and no rebuke from even one??? Repent, and come to know Jesus. We are to reflect His Image.
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I doubt they are Christians at all. They are Religionists.
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It’s the combination of self-righteousness and hypocracy that gets me. OK, if you don’t believe in working on Sunday, don’t. But don’t expect people to serve you on Sunday, and then mistreat them. I don’t remember Jesus suggesting that anywhere.
Have you ever seen the Gospel tracts that look like US currency? My daughter was a waitress in college, and some of her customers would leave those INSTEAD OF TIPS. Want to make a server think badly of Christians? Leave one of those folded beside a plate. If you’re going to leave a tract, leave a tip, too.
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And when they tell you they are going to behave badly in advance!
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When I’m being charitable, I think they’re not thinking, Michael. I see this as a failure to even be in the world — in the world in a way that would require seeing oneself the way others do.
When I was a teenager, our original pastor left our church and we called one whom we shouldn’t have. That pastor did taught we should patronize stores on Sundays, because he didn’t believe people should be working on Sundays.
Now, he was a huge professional football fan. And when is that played — fellas? Do the players and owners, and camera operators, and ticket takers and concession stand operators, etc., etc., etc. all volunteer their Sundays? No, well, okay. I thought it was a bit of blind hypocrisy, but he doesn’t control the NFL’s schedule, and didn’t keep a Nielsen diary, so it’s not like he — specifically — was causing the NFL to work. I still thought it was intellectually dishonest, but he was stuck on his justification, and I was a kid, so I let it go, so as not to be disrespectful.
Then one Sunday we were having a potluck dinner at church. We needed cream or bread, or something at the store, and he sent two of my friends — who had to walk because they were too young to drive (when he had his car and could have driven). He explained that he couldn’t go himself, because he believed it was wrong to make people work on a Sunday. THIS IS THE MESSAGE HE TAUGHT THE YOUTH OF HIS CHURCH. I was never again able to respect him. The position he held, yes (because my mother wouldn’t have allowed me to behave otherwise). The person? No.
I think transformation is a lifelong project, and some of us need it more obvious ways than others. That I can still get angry about the above story, even though it probably happened 25+ years ago, is a part of me that still needs to be transformed. I can feel the self-righteousness seeping out of my pores.
Lewis touches on this in Mere Christianity, doesn’t he? I just loaned out my copy. But there’s the bit about a man who’s just a lovely atheist and a women, a Christian, who’s a mean old bitty. And if I’m recalling correctly, Lewis’s point is that we don’t compare that man to that woman. We compare the man without Christ to all he could be with Christ; and we compare the woman with Christ to how she must have been before she had Christ.
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I think a lot of people behave badly.
It’s just so much more noticeable when done by those wearing the cloak of Christianity.
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I met a strict Christian once who did not believe in working on Sundays. Since he was travelling on business, he had no option but to stay in a hotel on Sunday. However, rather than make someone work in a restaurant to serve him meals, he purchased sandwiches on Saturday and ate in his room. He followed his conscience without berating anyone else for not following his example. Although I do not follow his example, I did admire that he was consistent and honest in his beliefs. When I was young, my parents were also strict about work on Sundays and never went to a store or restaurant or even bought gas on Sunday, but again they did not expect others, especially non-Christians to follow this example.
The situation mentioned is so sad, and so harmful to the gospel.
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Ya know, I was thinking about something just the other day. I was taught a lot in Sunday school–Daniel and lion’s den, “Father Abraham,” don’t make a lot of noise during service…But I can’t once remember being instructed on how to be kind to people. There were a lot of rules. A lot of theory. But the only time I was ever give specifics on my behavior was when it was irritating the adults or picking on my sister. Mostly just irritating the adults, though.
We were praised for memorizing the most verses, sitting quietly, knowing the fruit of the Spirit. I can’t remember any specific encouragement on how to be kind, patient, gentle. Self-control, yes! I didn’t learn kindness in church or any other religious setting.
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An interesting twist here. I went to a local brewery [which has a full service restaurant] some time ago for lunch. The waiter mocked us for not ordering any beer…. continually. I really wanted to leave as I don’t drink because of my own personal convictions [you do what ever you want with yours]. Finally one of the guys that I was with told him we were the ministerial association [which we were] and he finally stopped. I see him around town now and then [the town only has 1,800 residents] and we joke about it. I told him since he hassled me so much about not drinking that he has to come to my church once. Haven’t seen him in church yet…. 8)
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Magnanimity and open-handedness, for some reason, is a virtue poorly practiced by many Christians.
I wonder if it has something to do with the ol’ pull yourself up by your bootstraps, so-called Protestant work ethic?
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If you are a regular at a restaurant, being kind, considerate and not taking our lousy day out on someone innocent may give us an opportunity to witness.
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Forgot to mention something that I saw recently.
A person who is nice to you but rude to the waiter, or to others, is not a nice person. (This rule never fails).
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-04-14-ceos-waiter-rule_x.htm
I’ve included the link because the other rules are equally applicable to business and personal relationships and ultimately, evangelism is about personal relationships, we are after all introducing two of our best friends to each other.
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This is a bit of a stereotype but with good reasons I would think. If it is obvious I am with a church group I will tip more than usual to try and show that not all Christians are stingy. We should be as generous as possible. If we can afford to eat out we can certainly afford an extra 20% to help someone who has to wait tables for a living. These are very hard working people and deserve our respect as well as our generosity.
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A group of six church-goers came in last night after their evening services and sat down, not in her area but in another server’s. When the girl came to greet them and take their drink order, one of them said, “We want to tell you up front that we will not be tipping you tonight because…â€
Are you ready?
“…we do not believe in people working on Sunday.â€
———————–
They could much more effectively made their point by simply not eating in a restaurant on Sunday. One of the few places that I go out of my way to patronize is Chick-fil-a, because they have taken a stand on principle and are closed on Sunday as a corporate policy.
My wife has worked retail at several fabric stores over the years, and despite the “everybody is doing it,” mentality that is common through out the retail industry. Most smaller stores, make about enough in sales to cover the power and the payroll, and not any more. Most truly would be better off not opening on Sunday, but …..
This kind of behavior bothers me most because it leaves folks with a bad taste in their mouth about Christians. I don’t worry over much about it because as we all know time has a way of wounding heels.
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“Perhaps if you can give a non-food-service related example?”
Jen, I think anyone who’s ever worked in any retail job could give examples 🙂
I worked in a small local grocery store for a few years way back, and the one example that still sticks out in my mind is the guy who bought a newspaper.
He was obviously a businessman (good suit and tie, buying the business paper, his whole demeanour, appearance and attitude) and, when it came to paying, he threw the money at me.
Not handed it to me. Not put it down on the counter. Threw the coins down and let me scrabble to catch them before they bounced off all over the place. And he didn’t even look at me; he was too busy talking to his friend to even turn his head as he threw the money at me. I got a pretty good notion of his opinion of the “little people” from that. Can you imagine what he was like to work for?
Yeah, you get some tulips all right – and it’s usually the ones who (you would think) would know better or should know better.
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“Go the extra mile with them. Love them.”
GSusGuy, that’s exactly what the manager did. Instead of clapping a hand to his forehead, exclaiming “You’re right! I shouldn’t be open on Sundays! You shouldn’t be here at all!” and ushering these people out the door before they got the chance to stuff their faces with his restaurant’s food, he was civil to them and stuck up for his employee in a manner I wish more employers would emulate.
They took it upon themselves to be gratuitiously offensive; the rebuke about breaking the Christian Sabbath would only apply if they knew in advance the waitress was (1) a Christian (2) who held to the same view of the matter and was (3) deliberately, of her own choice and not be necessity of the job working on Sunday.
Instead, they got to (a) announce their virtue in public (b) save money (c) plume themselves that they were stiffing the girl not because they were too mean to pay her a decent tip but because she was a SINNER!!! and they were good, decent, Christian folk bearing witness to the will of God.
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“Plenty of Christians don’t believe in this sort of sabbath keeping as a New Testament practice anyway.”
For the Irish experience of Sabbatarianism, we go once more to Northern Ireland:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7603230.stm
There is the (alleged) instance of public playgrounds in Belfast being closed on Sundays because kids on the swings would be violating the Sabbath. Though nowadays, everywhere Mammon has triumphed and Sunday is pretty much like a weekday.
“Are some of you folks saying that if these were real Christians, they wouldn’t act this way?”
If they were as good Christians as they seem to think they are, they wouldn’t act like rude, mannerless boors. “The labourer is worthy of his hire”, after all. Be consistent – if you don’t think shops and places of entertainment should be open on Sunday, don’t patronise them. If you do go there after church (to save yourself the bother of cooking the Sunday dinner), then act like the other paying patrons.
It’s not even a matter of being a Christian, it’s a matter of behaving with common courtesy. These folks managed (1) to behave in a manner contradictory to what they claimed (‘we don’t approve of people working on Sunday but we’re willing to take advantage of it’) (2) to make Christianity seem like the religion of choice for uncivil, miserly, joyless, stuck-up prigs.
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religion has always been used as a cover for sin.
in light of their stand on tipping im curious why its okay for them to go out to eat on the sabbath and pay for food on the sabbath?
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I think the reason this is so annoyingly offensive is simple. They failed at the first rule of Christianity if you will. Christ said that the greatest commandment was to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength and that the next was to love your neighbor as yourself. Whatever justification they tried to use is not going to trump this and so it comes across as patently absurd to even try. Jesus said that all of the commandments hang on those two principles, so trying to use a commandment that gets its very meaning from love as a means to be rude or hateful just doesn’t compute.
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Humility is the most important virtue, I think. If we have humility, we will not behave like the people in the example. Oftentimes, humility is not modeled by church leadership. If you have an arrogant pastor and he models arrogance as a virtue, that’s how the people in his church will act and they will imagine they are being virtuous as they belittle the people in their lives.
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I simply can’t relate to this at all. It could be just the example given, but I don’t think I’ve ever been like this.
In fact, when I was in HS and College, big groups of us would go to Denny’s after bible study or youth group. We’d sit together, make joyful noise, tease the waitress/server mercilessly but kindly, and leave a HUGE tip. I wouldn’t have it any other way. I’ve never worked in food service but I have a soft (and fiery) spot for people who do because they make such little money. I always tip good unless the server is really something awful, and then I only leave 15%.
Perhaps if you can give a non-food-service related example?
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I think most of what I wanted to say has has already been said, but I really wanted to express my appreciation for the waitress’ manager, for him deciding to step up and handle that crowd in place of her. I’d probably get hounded for calling it “Christian behaviour” (whatever that means these days), but I just find an inspiring example of sacrificial good, even if the sacrifice was of an easy Sunday afternoon shift for her manager.
I also echo what some other posters said about doing work in the service industry – after a terrible summer’s worth of work effectively selling knives door-to-door and via telemarketing, and a year of not-so-terrible work behind a sub counter at my university’s cafeteria, I’ve developed a healthy appreciation for people in jobs like that.
Finally, I can’t help but wonder if an additional factor in the mistreatment of the waitress was that she was a woman (and a young woman at that).
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also, I guess I can relate one positive christian story.
One sunday night I had a group of 6 or 7 that gradually as I heard snippets of their conversation I could tell that it was some outside consultant evaluating a church oriented in the mega-mentality with their leadership.
Whenever they got their food, one guy spoke up and told me he was the pastor of a large local church, and that they were going to pray for the meal and wanted to know if I needed prayer.
They were easy to wait on, patient with a kitchen foul-up, and seemed interested in me as a person. I told them about possible seminary plans, etc and we had a nice chat for a few minutes.
They left a 15% tip, which is ok. That’s the MINIMUM industry standard. If I were in his position, identifying myself as a pastor and seemingly seeking to make a good impression, I’d probably go no less than 30%. All in all though, I think any of the lost people I work with would have been pleasantly surprised at the whole experience.
sidenote: if you leave anything less than 15%, no matter the amount of the check, you will be despised by your server. hope you don’t get them again. Remember that servers live off of what you give them – it’s called “gratuity” for a reason.
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I am a former pastor that now manages a hotel. We often have Christian groups stay with us. Some are the most delightful groups. Others are…well, not so delightful. Often these groups try to cram more people in a room than we allow. They demand the most and want to pay the least. I often have to spend time with my staff explaining this “Christian” attitude.
I love having the business. However, if I had a choice between a Christian group and a regular group, I would take the regular group. I wish that it was the other way around.
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SteveD mentions the *them & us* view of some Christians.
As a “new convert”, I’m struggling to stay within my evangelical fellowship because of such attitudes. It’s very painful to hear “outsiders” spoken of as a different, lesser species. I try not to judge but it seems so callous sometimes and I don’t know if I can stay. I find it upsetting.
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I once heard that this is the precise reason why Promise Keepers has not been back to Atlanta this decade: that the restaurant owners all complained to the Chamber of Commerce that they did not want Promise Keepers because the attendees were rude to servers and did not tip. I don’t know if there is any truth to this, but if there was, I would not be surprised.
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Every server I know who has to deal with the church crowd has unfavorable things to say about them. We can make excuses if we like but there really is no way around the fact that they are not showing the love of Jesus to these people. Every time I go out to eat with the men from my church I stress to them that they KNOW we are a church group and need to act and tip accordingly.
“In part, I think it is the undercurrent of “doing everything as unto the Lord†in which it’s more important to do something “excellently†than it is to be gracious and humble.â€
Ten to one odds the people who demand “excellence†from others expect “understanding†for their own lack of perfection.
“The rude Christians were far more likely to demand special favors and treat us as if we were both stupid and evil for failing to break policy on their behalf.â€
Isn’t this a reflection of Vending Machine Jesus? I know Imonk doesn’t like it but they may very well be showing the glory of THEIR Jesus not the real one. Conversely, when was the last time you heard a preacher talk about how Christians should act in everyday life other than not drinking or watching R rated movies or voting Republican? They may not even KNOW they should act any differently.
I remember when this first really hit me. It was while I was in Bible College. I was at a restaraunt one day after Sunday service. There was an older couple a table over. When their food came they “gave thanks” for it. While they didn’t make a big deal of it, they clearly did it in full view of everyone there. They then proceeded to complain about the food for the ENTIRE meal. I could feel God asking me “What good is it to say thanks when you really aren’t thankful?” If you’re going to bow your head so everyone can see and tell God how grateful you are, you had better just eat the food unless it’s just horrible..and even then be polite about it.
For the record, if I had been the manager of the Chili’s, and as a Christian, I would have told the people off and asked them to leave. I may have lost my job over it, but at least someone would be think about someone other than themselves.
DD
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imonk,
I work as a server who fortunately has enough seniority to no longer have to work on Sunday mornings. But when I did, it was miserable.
I think a general rule that breeds this sort of behavior is that more often than not (and especially in the south) the church serves as a refuge for people with bad (or no) social skills. Everyone else will push you out, but the church basically has to accept you. If you’re white and in the proper socio-economic stratum that is.
I can remember one woman who was in my section a few months ago, sitting with two other people, who was simply IRRITATING. She whined, made rude comments, complained about insignificant things, acted offended at our steps of service which were apparently more upscale than her usual tastes (order of courses, removing dishes), etc. I get the impression that this behavior could only last in a christian environment, because anywhere else someone simply would have told her to (pardon my french) shut the hell up and get over herself.
I could write pages about people’s true colors being revealed by how they treat servers, and especially tipping specifically. Most people have no idea what the world of a server is like. It’s a job usually held by the kind of people the church rejects – young guys, single moms, substance abusers and the like
Interestingly enough, last night I served a Muslim family who were some of the easiest guests to wait on I’d ever had. Well-behaved kids, polite requests, freely spending money, and a decent tip.
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Michael,
I’m not certain that Christians are more arrogant, rude, or cheaper than non-Christians. These things are hard to prove and the evidence is all anecdotal. I think what happens is that Christians either explicitly or implicitly announce themselves (for example, by their attire at lunchtime on Sunday), and then when they behave poorly they are easily identified. In any event, it doesn’t matter. As Christians, their behavior should be Christ-like and Christ would never act like this. A host of words come to mind when I try to describe such people: selfish, arrogant, unloving, proud. In a word: worldly.
Just this week, I taught a mid-week study on John 13:1-17, Jesus washing the disciples feet. He closes by saying, “If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.†Tomorrow I’m teaching on Titus 3:1-8. Throughout the epistle, believers are urged to do good works, but in this passage in particular we are exhorted to do good works to all men, that is, to believers and unbelievers alike. Paul gives us three reasons to do so: 1) At one time we were just like the unbelievers, 2) It is only by grace that we are saved from a life of sin and are any different from unbelievers, and 3) those who have been saved by grace should be careful to maintain good works, because they profit all men. Perhaps there hasn’t been enough exhortation in our churches to heed these two passages of scripture.
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Sorry for the bad grammar. Cut and paste error. Their words ARE dissonant.
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I’m speechless. The words of these Christians is so dissonant that I’m tempted to say what it says about us is that we have some truly insane people in our churches. Their rude remarks are more than that–they simply don’t make sense on any level. If I were their pastor and was made aware of this incident, I would have no problem at all questioning them face to face about the reality of their faith.
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Propbably two things causes this type of behavior
1) Pride!
or
2) They were convicted in church by the Holy Spirit of the sin in their life via the sermon and they didn’t know how to fall on their face an repent for the sin. So they go out directly after church and puke all over the first person they see.
Unexuseable no matter what the reason for rudeness. It is unbecoming as ambassadors of the Jesus Christ no matter what the reason. I am ashamed for their behavior. Period!
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“I wouldn’t suggest that treating the waitress fairly gets merit with God.”
Neither would I. But an unconvicted, unchastened professing believer is, in the words of Hebrews, a bastard.
SOME measure of sanctification (we’re all in process) is evidence of a previous experience of justification, is it not (2 Corinthians 5:17)?
That said, since our restaurant ownership days, we have looked to be solutions rather than part of the problem. And I TOTALLY agree with those who have suggested that every believer should spend some time working in the service industries. It completely changes your perspective when you’re cleaning lipstick off of people’s drinking glasses and cleaning tables and scrubbing plates. Gives a whole new definition to the phrase, “Left Behind.”
I would like to ask how we can further this kind of conversation in our fellowships, churches, and formats like this. How can we be part of the solution?
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Here’s one:
The prosperity Gospel crowd constantly hears that they are entitled, are reigning and ruling, are God’s favorites, etc.
Does all that type chatter contribute to treating ordinary folk as second class?
I would make a point here about American Christians and their selective compassion towards children, but that would get me hounded. Figure it out yourself.
ms
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We are all fallen, but something makes Christians the cheapskate, demanding sorts service people dread.
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This is a very unfortunate situation that I would like to find out is an internet hoax. What is even more unfortunate is that it likely has happened to one degree or another many, many times.
I, too, had a child who worked in a restaurant and dreaded the church crowd – demanding, high maintenance, low tip, if any.
I think the reality is that we are all fallen and will use any excuse we can grab to justify our sin. That does not let any of us off the hook. It is the reality of it and perhaps the worst snob of all is the religious snob.
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Urban Otter:
Let me give the reasons why New Covenant Christians like myself are not Sabbath keepers.
1. The Sabbath is fulfilled in the coming of Christ. (Hebrews) The sabbath we are looking for is rest from works and faith in Jesus. We are not obligated to keep Sabbaths. That’s repeated often by Paul.
2. If I were a sabbath keeper, I would keep the sabbath, not the Christian Lord’s Day, which is an entirely different matter. Whatever one believes there isn’t a word of scripture that says the sabbath was ever changed.
3. Old covenant law was of 3 kinds: moral, civil, religious. All are fulfilled in Jesus, but the moral content of the moral law continues in the new covenant. (The 4th commandment is part of the civil/religious law.)
4. The sabbath was part of an entire complex of interrelated laws regarding temple worship, priesthood and sacrifices. ALL are fulfilled in Jesus.
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We are to serve, is not showing others the lavish blessing and sufficient grace WE TAKE from our GOD every day a GLAD response to HIS MERCY! If our KINDNESS and OUR MONEY do not say and give others the same (or more than) we have received, whose example are we following???????????? In His sufficient grace, Mark
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The interesting thing is that the story indicates that the group were actually trying NOT to be rude, according to their own standard (their standard being the problem in this case!). Their principles weren’t going to allow them to give a tip, so they were trying to be honest upfront and not cause disappointment later.
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“Plenty of Christians don’t believe in this sort of sabbath keeping as a New Testament practice anyway.”
I know this is a tangent, but how could a Christian justify failing to keep the Sabbath on the grounds that it’s not a New Testament practice? Keeping the Sabbath is one of the Big Ten, it’s on the list of the moral laws that no credible historical brand of Christianity believes was rescinded. The Big Ten are still applicable to Christians, or so I thought. Do those who believe that keeping the sabbath went the way of not eating shrimp also believe that adultery is okay?
And back on topic…
I have worked as a server and in a used bookstore on the Sunday shift. It wasn’t just that the Christians were known to be rude (everyone knows that all groups of people have their nuts and cranks), it was that Christians had a reputation for being *worse* than the non-Christians. I think the accusation was true.
The rude Christians were far more likely to demand special favors and treat us as if we were both stupid and evil for failing to break policy on their behalf.
Why do they act this way? I’m not sure, but I know that they act much worse right after church than they do during the week. Somehow it’s tied up with just having attended a worship service or church group meeting. It’s not just members of the fire and brimstone churches either, it’s members of mainstream churches as well.
Somehow, they come away feeling both entitled and defensive. They are quick to take personal offense if impersonal store policy interferes with their immediate desires. They seem to think that they are owed special treatment, yet assume that the store is out to get them.
Maybe as guaranteed heirs to the Heavenly Kingdom, they get it lodged in their brains that their behavior does not matter since their salvation is assured. If their behavior doesn’t effect their salvation then being rude to the waiter means nothing at all. And also because they view themselves as already having inherited the Kingdom of God, they expect to be treated like princes and princesses here and now.
Whatever is causing it, it is clear that they seriously don’t believe that they need to treat people lower on the food chain with dignity and respect. I believe that you can know the real character of a man by the way he treats those under him, not by the way he treats his peers or his boss. Obviously, these Christians are not exhibiting a Christian character, probably because for some reason, they don’t think they need to.
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If you read about Christian social work in 19th century England and the USA, you will come across the concept of the “deserving poor.” The idea was that help was only given to those of the poor who had done what they could but fell short. Often it included the idea that they were either churchgoers or very moral.
Unfortunately, that attitude has remained rampant until today. I am not surprised that people have begun to argue about justification and works-righteousness. Those are handy categories to use when either we wish to disassociate ourselves from Christians behaving badly (they are not really Christian) or our failure to be engaged in social action (gasp, we are in danger of thinking that we can earn our salvation). Frankly, I would rather have more Christians be in danger of thinking they can earn their salvation if, and only if, this resulted in vastly increased services for those in our nation who are in dire need.
The category of the deserving poor also comes in handy when we wish to avoid our social responsibilities. The waitress had not done her part by refusing to work on Sunday. Therefore, she was not really deserving of a tip.
You find the category of the deserving poor in arguments about welfare, or any type of organized social response that allows us to deal with those among us who are in need. If we give too much child aid, we will simply get mothers who get pregnant more often, for instance.
But, once you notice how every one of these arguments becomes a reason to not be involved with “those” people, once you notice how few churchgoers have ever visited a church-run social work (it is better to give money at a distance and feel righteous about yourself), once you realize that your pastor also is unlikely to know a pastor who ministers in a poor area, then you can begin to realize just how far we are from anything resembling the Early Church’s involvement with the poor, the widow (Acts 6), the orphans, etc.
iMonk, you did a three part series on the coming hard times of evangelicalism. You forgot to mention that the coming hard times may simply come from God as a result of our terrible blindness.
Yes, this is one of those very rare times when I engage in a full-scale rant.
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I am reminded of the legislators who put themselves above the law.
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I wonder if this could be tied into the same thinking that allows Christians to judge other Christians. If they are not open to the humanness in someone a brother or sister, how can they see it in someone who is serving them.
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Strange. But maybe that’s just part of not having grown up in a Christian environment. My parents taught me about tipping. And I’ve always been aware that it’s a sometimes tough job and part of their livelihood comes from the tips they receive.
I guess, as I’ve journeyed into Christianity, if I’ve thought about it (which probably isn’t that often or anywhere near as often I probably should), it’s probably led me to tip more, and especially to tip generously when the service is poor, something I wouldn’t have done before. (These days, I kinda take Philo’s statement to heart in those situations. Yes, I know. He wasn’t Christian. But it’s a good perspective anyway.)
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Hmm… I also think that this situation might look very different to people who’ve worked in some kind of service occupation/industry (retail, direct sales, etc.). I know that working as a retail clerk was very challenging for me, in all kinds of ways.
One of my retail bosses (bookstore manager) told me that she felt that everyone in the US ought to be required to put in some volunteer time in a service industry. She’s got a very good point – once you’re in the “server’s” shoes, the perspective changes.
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That reminds me of the time when I took my student Ministry volunteers (about 8 of us total, mid to late 20’s, containing two married couples from a non-denom church) out to La Seniorita after one of our student outreaches. It was late evening and we were just going to hang out and enjoy one another’s company. Well, over the course of the evening our service was really pretty bad – some orders got mixed up (one was actually forgotten), some food came out cold, and there were extra charges for small things that were never stated at the time of ordering. However, I could tell that this girl was starting to feel a bit ticked-off and even defensive about the whole thing – partly because one of our members tends to be a bit loud and I’m sure some less than flattering things he said were overheard. At the end of it all about half the group left a 15% tip, but then a couple people really left low tips, or no tips at all, as well as some fairly blunt comments on one of the comment cards. We left, and the whole time I felt pretty uneasy. After I dropped some people back off I decided to drive back to see if I could find that girl, talk to her and hopefully give her a nice big tip. Well, I did, and I was able to do so, and she almost broke down crying. It had been a very hard night for her and our group didn’t make things any better. She knew she had screwed some things up, but was hurt (not her words but mine) that we treated her with such little dignity and respect. I explained that I was a follower of Jesus, and apologized for my behavior, my complacency, and the behavior of my friends. I told her that’s not how I think Jesus would have wanted us to handle things. You would not believe how thankful she was, and she hadn’t even looked at the tip I had given her yet – it was pretty decent. I remember driving home with tears in my eyes wondering how I could have been so blind, numb, and cowardly while we were all still in the restaurant? How could I have almost just taken my friends home and missed this opportunity. How many opportunities have I missed like this in the past? When am I going to grow up? I pray that God would continue to decrease the lag time from when He’s asking me to follow, and when I finally get a clue and do it. May he be so gracious to us all. And if you haven’t worked a job where you depended on a tip for at least a portion of your income, you should give it a try, because you’ll see yourself, and those who serve you in a totally different light. Blessing to you all.
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Are some of you folks saying that if these were real Christians, they wouldn’t act this way?
I guess I’m prepared to say that the question of their profession of faith is beyond me, but the question of how you disconnect Jesus’ teaching and example from your own behavior is one that even real Christians ought to explore.
>…Our best efforts still are rubbish in light of the cross.
Are we talking about justification? I thought we were talking about how people who hear constant reminders of the importance of being a witness to Jesus excuse themselves from being one?
I wouldn’t suggest that treating the waitress fairly gets merit with God.
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Two points to make:
1. Not everyone who calls themself a Christian…actually is. See the little epistle of 1 John.
2. Those who are Christians were not clunked in the head with the Holy Spirit stick which now makes them perfect. At least I was not. We are all works in progress. Remember, it is in Christ that we are saved and not because we choose to leave a good tip or behave with civility towards one another. Our best efforts still are rubbish in light of the cross.
It would be nice if we as Christians would model what the Bible teaches throughout and is summarized in James.
The question I have is how are we responding to rude civility? Jesus admonished His disciples (hence applies to us too) that if we love those that do good to us… what good is that? Even the heathens do that. He said, love your enemies. Do good to them.
Instead of being taken back, perhaps the next time this young lady meets people who are rude (in the sinfilled world it is a guarantee that will happen) respond as Jesus showed us. Go the extra mile with them. Love them.
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Friend in a Christian bookstore (now defunct) had stories that would scare a Marine. Pastors mostly.
You should hear what our school goes through trying to get Christians to pay their bill. Why, we’re a Christian school. How can we insist on payment? We’re obviously tools of the devil.
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If the Bible means it when it says you’ll know them by their fruit, I guess they weren’t really Christians yet…at least as far as working out their salvation with fear and trembling.
I find my self caught between weeping with repentance for our behaviour and wanting to scream ” HATE you f***ing Christians!” At least when I’ve not taken my meds.
My classic was when a guy accidently ran me off the road into a tree and then proceeded to tell me how much God must love me cuz I didn’t get killed. I wanted to tell him where to stick his god but I was still shaking from the accident. Then he drove off without before I could get his license ot insurance info.
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“All the label means is that presumably you can ask them, in Jesus’s name, to behave better… but in my experience, that doesn’t work, ’cause “Jesus will forgive.†That is, He’ll forgive them. My “rudeness†for pointing out their bad behavior is another thing entirely.”
Yaknowhatimsayin? Cheap grace dispensed aplenty . . .
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I worked at a hotel as front desk staff and every year we had large groups come in. One pastor cussed out the night audit staff; women of faith came and we all dreaded it.
Pride always seemed to be a huge motivating factor, “i.e. I’m attending women of faith because I am wonderful and you lowly peasant are working at this secular job and obviously not attending with the rest of the enlightened.” But more it just seems to be the accepted way to be a Christian in America…churches, groups, programs all seem to encourage such behavior. Many churches I have attended talk about unbelievers in the same “out-group” undeserving sort of way that implies such non-believers are not worth of our attention (unless proselytizing) or respect.
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I think it comes from not being comfortable with having someone wait on you, as a Christian. And, for that reason, Christian women are even less comfortable than men with being served.
So, to make themselves feel better about it, they belittle the person doing it. That degrading treatment justifies the server/client arrangement.
Living in an “equal” American society contributes to this guilt of being served.
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I don’t know why we should be so surprised by sinful human behavior. It’s human nature. The only difference between the rude Christian and the rude pagan is that the pagan has a pagan excuse for sin, and the Christian has a “Christian” excuse for sin.
And since everyone—including pagans—know Christians aren’t supposed to sin, it only seems worse. I have met rude pagans aplenty. Nobody expects better of them. Nobody’s expectations are shattered. It is only when the Christians—who have got our hopes up by claiming the label—behave badly that we respond in shock and annoyance.
I just expect Christians to behave just as badly as everyone else. All the label means is that presumably you can ask them, in Jesus’s name, to behave better… but in my experience, that doesn’t work, ’cause “Jesus will forgive.” That is, He’ll forgive them. My “rudeness” for pointing out their bad behavior is another thing entirely.
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sad story. made me repent again of how I acted with my friends in youth group many years ago…
alan,
good points re: your 2:37. may even throw some of that into my teaching tomorrow
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Plenty of Christians don’t believe in this sort of sabbath keeping as a New Testament practice anyway.
Definitely, though the idea of sabbath-keeping seems to be making a comeback in some circles.
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Plenty of Christians don’t believe in this sort of sabbath keeping as a New Testament practice anyway.
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There’s also the fact that a lot of people *have* to work on Sundays, even if they don’t want to. The terms of their job require it.
It’s a bit much to parade your superior virtue when you don’t have to suffer for it; if someone refused to work Sundays and lost his or her job for it, that would be more like living your beliefs than abusing someone for doing their job while taking advantage of them.
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@ Andy Wood – Great post, great points.
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I think it boils down to the sin of pride that comes with an attitude that starts with focusing on “we’re in, you’re out” that leads to “so I don’t have to be kind to you because you aren’t my brother or sister”.
The example is pretty mild. I have heard some people say we shouldn’t care about civilian casualties in Iraq because they are Muslims. I really don’t understand how someone can call Jesus Lord and think that way.
The issue of how other Christians act bothered me in school too and led me to fall away from going to church for quite a while because of all the perceived hypocrisy in the pews, but later in life I realized that we all fall short, and the hypocrisy that I should be concerned about and turn over to God for healing is the hypocrisy in my own heart.
stephen
Believer that Jesus is Lord, and asking the Holy Spirit to please help me act like it.
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Behavior like this undermines all the evangelism efforts people try to do- most of the people (30ish) I know detest Christians, and when you ask why, its never about “they are mean to gays” or “I wanna have an abortion” or “I wanna drink and sleep around and they dont want me to” its always concrete examples, like this, of nasty, rude people calling themselves “christians.” Its the worst sort of legalism- graceless behavior. The paranoia of the christian media culture doesn’t help these issues- people think they are being honest and taking a stand when they do this, and I guess they are, but WWJD?
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Maybe if Jesus were physically present today, He’d add to that “naked and you clothed me” passage, “I was a waiter, and you treated me with kindness and generosity.”
Maybe these people weren’t actually Christians.
Seriously.
My concern for them isn’t the complete disgrace they brought to the kingdom, their church, and their pastor (assuming he wasn’t in the bunch). My concern was that they could be so rude and APPARENTLY not feel any conviction or remorse about it whatsoever.
All of us are capable of this level of pride, entitlement, and rudeness. But I’ll never forget the day my own kids told me what a jerk I’d been to the people in a Denny’s restaurant. A hour later, I was virtually crawling back into the place to apologize “for being such a jerk.”
The most bizarre experience I had in this area took place when I was both pastor and restaurant owner – and had some of my own church members in our restaurant acting like complete asses to our servers. What to do?
We sold the restaurant.
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I think we’re all guilty of using our religion as a cloak (and justification) for rudeness and worse, a lot of the time. I know that I’ve done it, and don’t wish to persist in it.
… so, probably a case of “Physician, heal thyself.” 😉 (Speaking of myself 1st and foremost in this case.)
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Jerks are a dime a dozen. The manager’s wise and kind response was priceless.
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For some of us, our world is broken into “us and them”. Us as Christians are moral, upright people who understand what is “right” and what is “wrong”. We. by virtue of our “Christianess” are ALWAYS right, moral, and ethical. Our rules and regulations make us “right”. Therefore, we have the right to demean and denigrate others who are not “us”. It’s arrogance and snobbery.
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It seems that people who would act this way do not understand what Paul said in Galatians – that we are free from the law to serve one another in love. Even though I might be at a restaurant being served, I can serve the wait staff in love with a good tip and by saying “please” and “thank you” often and deliberately.
The apostle Paul would have me to believe that even if I give my body to be burned but have not love it counts for nothing. Even if I “keep the Sabbath” (whatever that means) and think that waitresses should too but have not love it counts for nothing.
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I put myself through college by waiting tables for about 5 years. Everyone dreaded the Sunday morning, after-church crowd.
I wouldn’t say that they didn’t tip well. I had several regulars who were extremely good tippers; one couple even bought me a Waterford crystal candy dish as an engagement present. It was worth about $100.
On the other hand, even the good tippers were demanding, wanting special treatment, endless substitutions to their meals, and “excellence” in their service. They would run you to death, always remembering one more thing they needed to enjoy their meal.
I’m not sure what it was/is about Christians and their bad restaurant behavior. In part, I think it is the undercurrent of “doing everything as unto the Lord” in which it’s more important to do something “excellently” than it is to be gracious and humble.
Maybe there is an element of the concept of authority and service that worms its way into those interactions, also. They see servers as “servants” and themselves as those being served. They might think they have a right to such behavior.
I would say most of that is subconscious.
As far as Christian teens/youth groups…well teens of all backgrounds tend to be obnoxious in large groups. There’s always some clown who has the bright idea to unscrew the salt shaker so it will spill for the next person who uses it.
What are you going to do?
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+ Alan: So right. What we believe is right, and that excuses our refusal to tip.
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At least one of the underlying philosophies at work here is: it’s really more important what you believe, that you believe the right things, than how the Way, the Truth and the Life effects and transforms who you are on the inside so that it migrates out to how you think and act.
“…God is love. …”
“… Love is never rude. …”
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You really need to add ignorance and possible hypocrisy to the list: if they “don’t believe” in the waitress working on the Lord’s day (I would agree) what on earth are they doing expecting her to serve them (compare Deuteronomy 5.14)?
Sad and miserable on any number of levels.
The Lord Jesus rebuked Simon the Pharisee for neglecting to demonstrate even a common level of decency in keeping with the hospitality of the times when Jesus visited his home (Luke 7.44-46). Our Lord took notice of and observed social niceties, and the absence of them.
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Well, it’s an attitude that’s been around a long time:
“23And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
24And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?”
Though it’s a peculiar refinement to not only criticise the law-breaking, but to simultaneously participate in the law-breaking whilst condemning it. That’s the part which boggles me.
It’s like going into a pub, ordering a whiskey, and drinking it down as fast as you can neck it all the time proclaiming that you support Prohibition and the pub-owner should be prosecuted for drug-dealing.
I can’t wrap my mind around the attitude; if they disapprove of people working on Sunday, why are they patronising the business? A boycott would make more sense; walking up and down outside with placards protesting would make more sense – it’d be silly, but it would still make more sense.
It’s a great example of legalism, hypocrisy, and spiritual pride. It’s not any form of witness.
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I make a distinction between “Christian” and “Religious” behavior. The rude hypocrisy you describe is not a monopoly among Christians and is certainly not the mind of Christ we are to have as His baptized believers. “Religious” Christians are another matter altogether. The old Adam in us simply loves to use Religion as an excuse to look down on our fellow human beings from whom Christ died because, after all, “I have made all the right religious choices in my life.” (I’m speaking “Religiously” here.)
I find it almost a law, also in myself, that religious types seem uniquely unable to see things from another’s perspective. Philippians 2:3 comes to bear here.
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The nature of the event is obvious. I’d like to hear discussion of what lies behind it and what it tells us about ourselves.
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If you’re that worried about Sabbath-keeping, then you go straight home from the church and don’t do any shopping, buying petrol, going for a quick bite, having a coffee or the likes.
That’s just plain rudeness, ignorance and downright stupidity. “We don’t think this restaurant should be open and all the staff shouldn’t be working, but we’re perfectly happy to plank our backsides down at the table, eat the food we think the cook shouldn’t be cooking, have the waitress we think shouldn’t be working serve us, and pay the cashier we think should be at home”?
In what universe does this make sense?
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Michael – I posted your three part series on my blog, my twitter and facebook…I wanted you to know that your thoughts are not only worth pondering but are subversive in the most positive manner. I always appreciate your thoughtful analysis…I know you love the Kingdom and want us all to be able to glorify the Lord in all we are and do.
thanks,
Dr. Robin Dugall
rdugall@apu.edu
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