Twenty-Five Sortof Random Things I Do and Don’t Believe

185 thoughts on “Twenty-Five Sortof Random Things I Do and Don’t Believe”

1. A most fascinating piece, with so, so much to think about and opine ! A few thoughts in reply;
   i. I’d have to agree that gay marriage isn’t the biggest threat to the family. I don’t think there is such a thing as the “biggest threat”. There are so many things that work against God’s notion of family – of which gay relationships are only one. Even selfishness or control within a marriage ultimately works against family. I hope this doesn’t come out sounding judgemental, but most human beings do not come from gay relationships, yet many of us are disfigured and warped from the “normal” families that we do come from, which in turn go a long way towards mashing up our view of the family and ultimately, the family structure itself.

   ii. I live in England and if I had a quid for every time I’ve heard someone refer to it as a Christian nation, I may not be a rich man but I’d certainly not be a poor one ! As with the US of A, I don’t see how a country can be a Christian nation. It makes no sense biblically and one only has to study Europe in the middle ages and the initial beginnings of America as the settlers arrived to see what disasters occur (and the legacies left behind) when one “tries to build the new Jerusalem and ends up with New York…”

   iv. The problem with some of the words we use like ‘inerrancy’, ‘infallibility’ and ‘inspiration’ is that they don’t have simple one liner explanations – but they are quoted as though they do. Many of our words have delicately nuanced explanations. Who wants to hear them ?

   v. For me here, the problem isn’t so much whether or not brothers and sisters meet on Wednesdays or whenever, as much as the imposition on and expectation of people to meet on those nights simply because it’s been set up to be done that way. If a congregation together decide to meet together on a given evening, more power to them.

   vi. Though I’ve only seen snippets {and what I’ve seen seems OK}, the more translations of the bible that come out, the more I’m convinced that it is the Holy Spirit {God himself} living in us that is actually God’s chief method of communication with the human race. No doubt contentious, but think on this for a moment. If someone illiterate came to faith in Christ, could God not really have a relationship with that person ?

   vii. No one can be an every detail expert on the bible. One can’t even do it with the Beatles ! I wouldn’t mind betting that “thinking biblically” would bring about more disagreement than just about anything one cares to name, if the last 1950 years have been anything to go by. Ironic, really.

   viii. The whole verse by verse concept makes virtually no sense to me, particularly when one comes to letters and narratives that were written as whole pieces and understood that way. That doesn’t mean that bits and pieces can’t be considered separately at times, but it inevitably leads to where we’re at now, a kind of cut and paste, pick and choose approach that becomes the norm but which is ultimately full of holes.

   ix. Funny thing about Leviticus; it’s a struggle to get through {and to be frank, it’s pretty boring for great swathes of it}, but I encourage one to do just that, and more than once because it really helps make sense of Jesus and other NT matters.

   xi. As a man that is black, I raised an eyebrow initially at this point. But on thinking and reflecting, I’d have to agree. Pretty bold point, though.

   xii. For me, institutional Christianity is like a beer that is well past it’s sell by date; it can quench thirst, in that it’s a liquid and you can drink it all your life but it’s a pale shadow of the real thing and it tastes like soap….

   xiii. I still don’t understand this point. When you talk about child baptism, do you mean baptism of children that have actually made a real commitment to Christ ? Or what we in the UK call “christening” ?

   xiv. I think that if we honestly practiced listening to the Lord and believers were actually equipped rather than preached to or ‘motivated’, then seminaries could not exist. That we have relied not upon spirit filled people of proven character {the emphasis being on ‘Spirit’}, but ‘educated’ and articulate ones so often, has done incalculable damage to the body of Christ actually being a healthy body. I guess loads of people might find that offensive but as you point out, Christ’s way is cross cultural, for every strata of society and it’s the Lord who manoeuvres his people into the situations they find themselves serving in, not man and the things we are swayed by.

   xv. Listening does no harm but often we won’t because we feel that the one that has left will be shown to be right {and perhaps we feel a little defensive}. But actually, that may not be the case. And either way, listening is a priceless way of discovery, one way or the other. You’ll never know if someone was right or wrong unless you grapple with the reasons they give for a) doing what they did or b) seeing you in a particular light.

   16+17. Both of these are part of a larger problem. I mean, technology can play a minor part sometimes. But is it really necessary in equipping someone for works of service ? I think that we, as human beings, sometimes have extremist tendencies and we like toys and bright flashes and so often we’ll uncritically take on board whatever is put our way, especially if it makes us feel good or is skilfully presented. Like a Trojan horse. I’ll often be pointed to as a rebel {without a clue !! } but I don’t feel that I need “someone” to tell me what to do and how to be. I may have done as a baby believer; I certainly don’t now. Let’s have a little discernment instead ! Oh, and the real presence of the Lord….

   xvii. Does it really matter when God created the earth ? None of us were there to witness it ! I hope he made a DVD of it though…..Seriously, whether the earth is 6000 or 100,000,000 years old isn’t going to enable us to hear him better or put food in the mouth of someone on the edge of starvation or act on what he tells us.

   xix. I think many of us believe that last sentence……until that belief has practical implications. It’s sort of connected with 16 & 17.

   xx. You know, I’ve long wondered about this one. While I think everyone is entitled to their own positions of conscience, I have a hard time reconciling pro-life with pro death penalty. The way my mind works, one either believes that life is sacred or you don’t. And the real test of the sanctity of life is when you come across those that, well, don’t deserve it. I hope I’m never put to the test !

   xxi. Me neither. In saying that though, maybe sometimes some moralists and censors have actually had worthy reasons for taking some of the paths that they have. I wouldn’t lump them all in the same camp.

   xxii. It’s worth exploring the Sabbath as a subject, even though I wholeheartedly agree with your point. It’s a fascinating history and even more so is seeing how even with the Holy Spirit we can take something so pure and helpful to us and somehow construct this lumbering ironclad monstrosity around our necks…….and then justify it or write it off as if nothing had happened !

   xxiii. Ditto. Someone will always make a big deal out of this and let’s face it – it’s a biggie ! As someone pointed out earlier, the actual beneficiary of the tithe in Israel was the giver of the tithe and every third year, it went towards Levites, widows, orphans and foreigners and it was real food/grain not money……No one has the freedom to impose upon other believers what becomes of their income, whether one believes in stewardship or not. Peter makes that clear when talking to Annanias. There is nothing in the NT to justify tithing. The three or four times it’s mentioned, it’s either in an ‘under the law’ situation or a hark back to pre-law times. To turn that into a binding command is to engage in the kind of gymnastics that wins Olympic gold medals. And it is a totally separate issue from generosity and greed.

   xxiv. There has been so much clamouring for revival in the last 20 years but I don’t think that’s particularly honouring to God. Have we seriously not learned, both from the entire OT adventures of Israel and church history of the last 2000 or so years that God has inexhaustible resources and is packed to the gills with life and what is new ? By all means let’s appreciate and learn from what has come before. But I believe that when God is doing something new and vibrant, it doesn’t look like what has already been. Principles may remain coz God is consistent but we need to be so plugged into his life that we can recognize what he’s doing. For all some of us know, 10 major moves of God could be happening right now. Question is, would we recognize it if it ain’t on the TV or papers ?

   xxv. The writer of Hebrews settled this one for me when he/she writes about faith and how it’s by faith that we understand that God created the world out of nothing. “Call me ignorant do” if you please, but that’s good enough for me. Sulphur crusted underwater cities that could be Sodom and salty pillars that could be Lot’s wife may well ‘prove’ something and make compelling TV or reading. But I don’t care much for archaeological discoveries because they exist independently of our relationship with and faith in God. They can’t make me believe more or less.

   If all that seems like a lot, that’s the abridged version !! Besides, iMonk has sparked off some serious thinking with some seriously juicy thoughts there.

   LikeLike

2. Can I give a random thought?
   We can get so tied down to our beliefs and personal convictions that we refuse to even consider any other point of view. That is something we need to guard against. I am just now learning it myself.

   LikeLike

3. Wow. Very thought provoking. I totally agree with most of the 25. However, on the ones I disagree with, you are the one who is probably right so I won’t even bring them up.
   God bless you! Grace and peace

   LikeLike

4. Hey, Other just posted this at the Ooze, and I wanted to respond.

   I like most of your points. And the following conversation.

   I think that a running theme here is found throughout church history…we have a tendency to toss things that have been abused, rather than taking them and really looking at what makes them valuable and useful in terms of the overall christian lifestyle/discipleship deal.

   A. Tithing – A lot of us get really convicted over the lifestyle described in acts, but life as if it were impossible. But by the same token, most Americans do not live within their means…anybody living with 0% debt is actually in the top 5% of the US monetarily at this time. The whole idea behind modern tithing is, truly, making a start on opening up your resources to God for his use, since you’re just a steward anyway.

   Besides, if you attend a church (which requires money for lights, and water, and other useful things, and which has people coming and asking for charity, which cannot happen if nobody will give money for it) but are not willing to share resources to support it…then you’re just a parasite, aren’t you?

   In fact, just as most people have trouble giving 10% of their money to…eh, church? Charity? relationaltithe.org? they have just as much trouble with their time. Which leads us to

   B. Sabbath. We all pack so much crap into our lives. So many things that we HAVE to do.

   But we don’t, really. We don’t need that many things…but we’ve convinced ourselves we do.

   But what we really need to be is the best ourselves that we can, in service of our Saviour.

   So we can live our lives distracted…or we can start building in time to rest. To relax. To focus. To meditate.

   Specifically setting aside sunday night and Wednesday night just to be family is a start. Sabbath is, really, an attitude, as much as anything else. Will you make time for God, more than just your 15 minute bible study every morning?

   Prayer, really, is showing up. It’s putting one foot in front of the other. It’s being in a place where God can actually get ahold of you, and have you pay attention for once. Again and again.

   Between the two of these, time and money, the truth for all Christians is this: Give as you can, not as you can’t. You are who you are. Acknowledge this, and live in the reality of who you are, and who you can become…not who the superchristian at your church should be, or what you think is expected of you. If it doesn’t come from your heart, it’s all moot anyway.

   But a lot of us need practice.

   LikeLike

5. Willoh, you asked whether someone like iMonk could get funding to plant a church. Not to be pro-schism, but planting a new church shouldn’t even require money. The early church thrived while meeting in homes.

   LikeLike

6. This post made me sooo happy. While I didn’t agree with your reluctance to the “young earth” theory, it’s obvious that nothing I say will change your mind.

   HOWEVER, I did get giddy regarding two of your points. First, the Secular America was great. I think a lot of people just don’t think through that one…although the founders were Christian, the framework is not.

   Also, the OT tithing…I’ve been saying that for SUCH a long time. We are not bound by legalism, and tithing is fairly legalistic. I do believe that Christians should be more gracious (in contrast to the customers at Chili’s), and should even strive to give more than 10%, but to say that it is necessary to give exactly ten percent is not applicable and is cheap.

   I will DEFINITELY be keeping up on this blog.

   LikeLike

7. Long time lurker, first time commenter. I really liked this list, especially NLT and your views of the IC. Thanks for the encouragement.

   LikeLike

8. I disagree with some of what you said and agree with some. Your opinion or my opinion, simply because it shows up on a screen, or sounds nice, does not make it right.

   Let me tackle just one that I disagreed with. There were others….

   Gay marriage/homosexuality:

   While I agree that on the surface it APPEARS that homesexuality is less destructive (assuming, in order to clarify my point, that the level of destructiveness of one sin vs. another could be accurately measured by my own sinful minds’ approximation), I believe that homosexuality is a symptom of the level of decay/breakdown/decline of the traditional family unit in society.

   In other words, when homosexuality starts showing up, and then increasing, and then becoming accepted, and then celebrated, you can be assured that divorce (and the other items you named) have been on the scene and worsening for a while.

   Just reread Genesis 19 and Romans 1:18-32. Homosexuality and its embrace by the masses is a litmus test of the sin and wickedness in a society.

   While homosexuality may appear less destructive, it is simply an indicator of the times, and should not be heralded as the lesser of two evils.

   LikeLike

9. “I think you’d be amazed at how many people work at night, and can’t make Sunday morning.”

   Not really. My father worked a rotating swing shift for about 1/2 of his life. At one point he said he’d prayed that if God would give him off the Sundays when on the midnight shift he’d work extra hard to make the regular Sundays. 🙂

   LikeLike

10. KY, I know how Sunday night services are now. There used to be a guy who went both to Sunday morning and Sunday night who would say, “The few, the proud, the Sunday night crowd.” I’m just saying that maybe if marketed correctly – Sunday night services for people who can’t make Sunday morning services instead of a measure of our piousness – that Sunday night services could be a good thing. I think you’d be amazed at how many people work at night, and can’t make Sunday morning.

    LikeLike

11. “why should Sunday night and Wednesday night services be against the law?”

    I grew up in an old time SBC church so here’s my comments.

    As iMonk alluded to in another comment it many times gets used as a pious meter for the “serious” to judge the slackers. It can be a lot of work and money to open up and hold services for the 10%. And 99% of them were there Sunday morning. Now when our recent church started a Saturday night service as an alternative to Sunday night, well that was different. My family went the entire 6 or so years it was offered.

    As to Wednesday nights I disagree with dropping those if they are done correctly and attended. But I suspect the Wednesday nights of my youth are not what happens most places these days. But there are sound reasons for “doing Wednesday” nights correctly.

    LikeLike

12. Okay, I’m intriqued – why should Sunday night and Wednesday night services be against the law?

    Should it maybe be that churches should say, “We’re having these services for people who can’t make it on Sunday morning.” When I was working nights and got off at 8:00 am on Sunday morning, I can tell you what I was doing when church started at 10:30 …zzzzzzzzz….. But, I was bright eyed and busy tailed at 6:00.

    Actually, what I frequently did was got my relief to come in at 7:45 and then ran down the street to the 8:00 am Catholic mass – which about drove some people at my then church ’round the bend. This was before I broke with the AofG and went Quaker.

    LikeLike

13. Couldn’t agree more on the seminary critique. I went to Asbury, which was ok, but not worth the 50K debt. I only went because it’s what the Navy requires for chaplains. My compensation as a commissioned officer made it a worthy investment—but there is no way I could sustain a family on what my denomination typically pays its pastors AND have all that debt.

    LikeLike

14. “I’m nowhere close to being convinced by the arguments for male primacy some come up with from Genesis.”

    Even that of Paul in 1. Cor. 11? Just wondering.

    LikeLike

15. David Allis – I think Lewis was pretty clear that the situation in “The Great Divorce” was not a theological suggestion, but a literary device used because it allowed him to focus on why people make the choice between heaven and hell (he states this in a foreword or an afterword – I don’t have my copy handy to check.

    LikeLike

16. Why no Sunday night services?

    Because the time is better spent with family and friends than listening to a second sermon.

    It’s bad stewardship to run a second service, imo. I grew up with it, and had good experiences, but this was in a tradition that thought you measured spirituality by how many hours you logged in sermon time.

    peace

    ms

    LikeLike

17. A friend sent me this link. I have never visited your blog before. I must say, quite interesting. Coming from an ultra conservative town (Bakersfield, CA) I was quite amused to hear your 25 thoughts. I agree with most, disagree with some, but have one question: Why no Sunday night services? I would be interested to hear your reasoning on that one.
    As far as the abortion issue, I have never heard my thoughts verbalized so well. I have always been confused how someone could be pro-life and yet support the death penalty and our Operation Freedoms overseas.
    I will make sure to bookmark your blog…
    A similar blog you may enjoy:
    http://avilafam.blogspot.com/2008/07/so-jesus-turned-water-into-grape-juice.html

    Curtis

    LikeLike

18. David Allis:

    #27 and #28 The sinner’s prayer is not Biblical and has nothing to do with becoming a Christian. It’s a piece of evangelical manipulation. We are saved by living faith in all that God is for us in Jesus as expressed in the Gospel. There’s no “prayer” that makes that happen. It’s the work of the Spirit in an individual life. — IMonk

    The snarks over at Slacktivist refer to “sinner’s prayer” conversion scenes as “Say-The-Magic-Words Salvation”. During the time when I was becoming a notch on Bible after Bible, I noticed an attitude that if “The Sinner’s Prayer” wasn’t said in the exact right words and/or the exact right posture and gestures, your salvation wouldn’t take. Kind of like the AD&D (rev.1) ruleset “chrome” about “verbal and somatic spell components”, i.e. words and gestures.

    And most wordings of “the prayer” itself appear to be direct knockoffs of the RCC’s “Act of Contrition”, with the addition of an “Invitation Into My Heart” clause at the end.

    LikeLike

19. David, not Christopher. My error. Sorry.

    LikeLike

20. Well I didn’t agree with absolutely everything you said, but I was cheering all the time (and frequently laughing) as I read it. Best “25 random” I’ve read so far. I will refrain from debating the points on which I don’t agree, because you’ve had 165 instances of that already. And I would instantly fall into the trap of confusing MY agenda with God’s… if we don’t get it soon that we need to avoid doing that, we’re in big trouble

    LikeLike

21. so I looked up Christopher Wright on Amazon:
    Which Book?

    LikeLike

22. “Relax. It’s not a meme. Nor should it become one. Though, I feel divinely led to tag….”

    Ha! Good one.

    LikeLike

23. Totally with you on the tithing thing … the whole 10% is an Old Testament idea that has no place in a New Testament Church. We are no where in the New Testament told to give 10% … we’re told to give everything! Thank you for taking a stand on this one … especially in our materialistic society.

    LikeLike

24. Pretty much agree with all of this, and once again you’ve put it in words better than I could, Michael. Thank you.
    Most appreciated the item on tithing. We do give, fairly significatnly, but not to the local church, which we’ve almost left, and certainly not to the the building renovation program they got hyped about while ignoring $500K in debt. Go figure. The pastor also made it clear that a prerequisite for any leadership position in the church issignificant giving — to the church. I have very mixed feelings about that one.

    LikeLike

25. iMonk~

    So glad I read this. I came to think in the same vein as you are here many years ago. I am one of those people you mention in #15. It is very encouraging to know not all Christians are sheep.

    One of my big beefs (even before I left the church) was the whole “revival” theme played up so faithfully. Revival came to mean an overly-long service with a lot of noise and prayer, and people crying and reconciling with others: an emotional high. What was needed was actually a revolution.

    When the revolution comes, I might consider coming back. Until then, words like “Sabbatarian” drive me up the wall.

    LikeLike

26. I guess I’m going to have to wait till the fall to hear another anti-anti-Halloween rant.

    I don’t roll with sensational Biblical archaeology either. In fact, I put a bigger burden of proof on a supposed Biblical finding than any other kind of discovery. How many of us for years heard about that “lost day in time” that the scientists didn’t want us to know about? I don’t think anyone has ever believed a word of the Bible because of a quick statement that could end with “there ya go.”

    LikeLike

27. I mean “you” in an imperial sense.
    I of course heed all that the Monk has to say.

    LikeLike

28. Nothing there that I would have any serious arguments with.
    I will add:
    Tithing- Amen, the pulpit hucksters and the well-meaning as well, pick and choose what they like or suits their agenda out of the NT. If you’re bound and determined to do something with your money that looks like the NT then give it all away.
    Seminary – Why would God want us to know Him and Him in Christ and then require that people with doctorate level educations be the only ones who can explain it to us poor unwashed. It is an extension of the old temple system as is the heiarchy of the all the Orthodox churches.
    Am I anti-scholarship? In no way!
    But I don’t need you to tell me what the simple truth is.

    LikeLike

29. Well Lutherans, despite the huge explosion of Lutheranism through out Africa (where I enjoyed a couple years of my childhood as the son of a Lutheran missionary) and Asia, and growing churches through out the former Soviet Union, have a reputation of being weak on missions and evangelism. I think it is an undeserved reputation, and one only tenable to those who have not studied the issue. Of course it may be more true among the more liberal branches of Lutheranism (hard to evangelize when you don’t believe the gospel yourself, or don’t believe it is really necessary because, after all there is no hell…).
    And the LCMS hasn’t exactly been growing by leaps and bounds as it did in its earlier years despite the fact that it mostly grew because of the tides of German immigrants. Still many of those souls were not exactly hot for the gospel before the LCMS got a hold of them, we did evangelize to others, the Indians for example. Something we continue to do.
    So I guess I don’t see the two being connected. I baptize babies, and still spend quite a bit of time reaching out and evangelizing. But I could see where considering your children lost, and equating evangelism with numbers baptized would have a negative effect.

    LikeLike

30. Bror Erikson:

    I’ll once again suggest reading Christopher Wright’s book. It’s written by a paedobaptist for a paedobaptist.

    Thesis: The historical evidence is that those who baptize infants and children put less emphasis on conversion evangelism.

    I’ll vouch for that in my own denomination, the SBC. And I’ll vote that in my 52 years of life, it seems to be the case in lots of infant baptizing churches.

    If its not true in the LCMS, then I apologize for being too general. But as I said, it’s the thesis of a world class scholar of paedobaptism.

    Earlier in the thread, I said the same thing.

    Let me just use my own supposedly evangelistic denomination as an example. Actual Paedobaptists can come to their own conclusions, but those conclusions are evident in many cases, though probably not all.

    As the SBC has begun baptizing children of younger and younger ages, it has baptized hewer and fewer converts. I was a church youth minister for 13 years, full time, and I saw this first hand. The focus becomes our kids, not the community. Evangelism = reaching our own children, and that’s where the programs and the staff go. Conversion evangelism takes a back seat and more and more of the focus of the church is on teaching, catechizing and retaining the children of members. Less and less emphasis is on actual evangelization of the lost outside the church.

    I’ve heard many people say that we must reach our own first. Few ever ask if baptisms in an SBC church are all our children or are from outside the church.

    Over time, this has a serious detrimental effect on evangelism, and the SBC is seeing it now.

    I believe that most infant baptizing churches know that this has been the overall effect. I’ve had people write me and say that evangelism = having and discipling as many of our own kids as possible.

    That’s fine. But the Great Commission is clearly to cross cultures and reach those outside the existing church.

    I don’t want this to become an infant baptism thread. Wright makes the case and I’m just amening him.

    If this conversation hasn’t occurred with the baby baptizers, then I can assure you it has gone on among evangelicals who baptize young children.

    LikeLike

31. Pingback: ramblings of a wannabe rockstar

32. quote: “But that doesn’t mean that if you follow what we believe you wind up with Oreos and Orange juice, any more than following infant baptism necessarily results in the loss of evangelism. Look at Bishop Ryle for example.”

    Michael,

    Oh, I agree with you here. Perhaps I should have been clearer in my last post. I don’t think practicing infant baptism necessarily results in a loss of evangelism. But it can. That is especially the case if one comes to practice “open baptism” in which as I mentioned earlier one baptize pretty much anyone’s children, including those with a marginal commitment to the faith, those who see baptism as some cute family/cultural naming ceremony. Churches who practice “open baptism” with infants give the signal that baptism isn’t about Christ. That alone is dangerous to evangelism.

    I would argue that something similar goes on at times with churches who have a Zwinglian or Calvinistic understanding of the Supper. I don’t think this understanding necessarily leads to a loss of reverent worship. But it can, especially if they and when they come to think of communion as “just a symbol” and thus not very important to their worship. In my experiences, churches that embrace the entertainment worship mentality almost always see communion as not all that important. Surely this isn’t a coincidence.

    I should say that I think symbols can be pretty powerful. Just ask most veterans what they think about the flag. So even though I don’t agree with the Zwinglian and Calvinistic view of communion, I don’t think it is fair to blame these views for a loss of reverent worship per se.

    I know you’ve argued for Baptists and other Evangelicals to return to a richer appreciation of their own theology of communion. I think that would go a long way to recovering a more reverent sense of worship in many churches. In other words, what I’m trying to get at is that it isn’t infant baptism or Zwinglianism that is necessarily the problem. It is churches who don’t take their own doctrine and the implications of their own doctrines on these matters very seriously. It’s the abuse of these doctrines, not the doctrines per se that are the problems. I hope this makes some sense.

    rr

    LikeLike

33. I have been trying to figure out # 13 for the last day or two myself. I really can’t make the connection. So I was wondering if you might care to elaborate your point a little more Imonk. Perhaps it is a perspective thing.

    LikeLike

34. rr: Cause and effect? No.

    But do our pastors promote a deprived view of the sacraments? Well compared to Lutherans and Catholics, of course. But that doesn’t mean that if you follow what we believe you wind up with Oreos and Orange juice, any more than following infant baptism necessarily results in the loss of evangelism. Look at Bishop Ryle for example.

    LikeLike

35. 13. I’d like everyone- infant baptizers and children baptizers- to own up to the fact that evangelism has badly suffered because we baptize children. Even if you believe it’s right, you still have to contend with the effect all of this has had on evangelism.

    I’m a Lutheran, so I believe infants should be baptized. But I do think there is something to this. I think it probably has to do with the way infant baptism is practiced in our culture as well as the practice of “open baptism” in which churches baptize pretty the children of anyone who wants them to be baptized, including those of people with only a marginal commitment to the faith. While I still think infant baptism is Biblical, there are some practices related to it that need changing. Baptism after all isn’t some cute naming ceremony.

    Other the other hand, I’d argue that churches that hold to a Zwinglian or Calvinistic view of the Supper tend to have less reverent worship, are more enamored of technology (#16), and are more likely to incorporate pop music/entertainment into their worship. It doesn’t seem an accident to me that churches that believe in the real presence tend to have reverent, liturgical worship, while churches that don’t believe in the real presence are more likely to have “contemporary” worship.

    So flipping things around to you, I know your views on the Lord’s Supper and don’t wish to argue with you. But don’t you think that the general view of the Supper that American Evangelicals hold (either Zwinglian or Calvinistic) has something to do with the direction they have gone with respect to worship? Again, as with baptism, this doesn’t prove or disprove a particular doctrinal stance. But I can’t help but see a connection here.

    rr

    LikeLike

36. Austin, Please forgive the typos..I’ve slept little tonight

    Tim

    LikeLike

37. Austin,

    You said that Jesus first fulfilled the law and then extended it and said see the Sermon on the Mount….

    My memory of what Jesus said was that he came to fulfull the Law not to change it, not even on dot of it.

    Those person’s persons I’ve heard teaching that Jesus was extended the scope of the Law or that his teaching was more strenchent than the Law itself in effect have Jesus changing the Law.

    I think we might better understand what Jesus was doing in the sermon on the mount by understanding that he was pointing his audience back to the spirit of the Law.

    For instance when he told them that you could commit adultry in your heart he was placing the commandment back where God really wants the reason for obeying the commandment to be and that is from our hearts. If you view this in the culture of the Pharisees, the culture of actions being the most important aspect of their sevice to God and the heart have very little to do with it, and of course the coming new covenant being one centered on the condition of our hearts then it makes more sense, IMO.

    Tim

    LikeLike

38. I go both ways on the seminary education issue. Some church-based programs will have high standards; most of them will say they have high standards but won’t. Part of the problem with evangelicalism as it now stands is its anti-intellectualism, which leads to acceptance of things like the prosperity gospel, pseudoscience, demons-behind-every-problem spiritual warfare, wacky political theories, scams of all sorts, and following the latest Your Best Prayer of Jabez Now fads. Having our future leaders trained by “Pastor Billy Bob” as someone else said could make the problems of evangelicalism worse, not better.

    LikeLike

39. 14. I think I agree. However, what is someone like me to do? I’m 35, been in full time ministry for a few years, (associate/youth) have an undergrad degree in Pastoral Ministry, but won’t be considered for other positions unless I shell out thousands more and years of my life to get an m.Div.?

    Maybe it’s just up to people like me to do that and step up for the next generation…

    LikeLike

40. Your right on with #12 and 15

    LikeLike

41. Tom Schwegler:

    While I understand the aversion to institutional Christianity, I hesitate to join in the present-day chorus of criticism. If institutions are far from the ideal, it is primarily because the people in them are not ideal. As there is a shortage of ideal people, we cannot escape this problem by simply jettisoning all existing institutions and starting another movement.

    I don’t have an aversion to institutional Christianity per se. I do feel that there are times when the institutional Church gets in the way of doing God’s work. The Church should be encouraging each of us to progress in our individual ministries. When it is easier for me to reserve a room at work (I work for a public school district) than it is for me to reserve a room at the church that I attend, there could be a problem.

    LikeLike

42. I used to agree about seminarian pastors, until I realized that Billy Bob the pastor didn’t have the background in systematic theology and he didn’t even know what the word “orthodox” meant.

    LikeLike

43. While I understand the aversion to institutional Christianity, I hesitate to join in the present-day chorus of criticism. If institutions are far from the ideal, it is primarily because the people in them are not ideal. As there is a shortage of ideal people, we cannot escape this problem by simply jettisoning all existing institutions and starting another movement.

    I contend that institutions arise when movements decide to outlive their founders. Movements can thrive with a minimal level of formal organization because the founders grow into their roles as the movement grows; they start at the beginning, when the movement is small, and have the opportunity to figure things out as they go. However, when those founders step aside, it becomes necessary to formalize roles in order to ensure that their replacements maintain the founders’ work. Today’s movements will either become tomorrow’s institutions, fail to thrive, or vanish.

    There is certainly plenty of room for debate on what amount and type of structure is best, and plenty of warrant for criticizing the institutions we presently have. But I doubt that administration would be a spiritual gift if Christ had not meant to create something that needed administering.

    LikeLike

44. Michael, I discovered that the IC was a slovenly mistress who was taking my time and money and giving me only promises in return. No matter how pretty she tried to make herself with all the money, it didn’t work. It sounds like you’re about to reach a similar conclusion.

    I’ve been a follower of Jesus for a long time, but I had to get away from the IC and “religion” to really spend time with Him.

    I like Douglas Weaver’s discussion on tithing. He has several posts, and links to other posts and books. Check it out at http://weaverministries.org/blog/
    For those whose paycheck depends on tithing, you might not want to look at this stuff. You’ve probably already had lots of bad economic news recently.

    LikeLike

45. I think only one person (Fr. Ernesto) has said anything about “sensational Biblical archeology.” There are “Biblical archeologists” out there who know next to nothing about real archeology. But they are able to make a lot of money off of the church through their seminars, movies, and books. Bob Cornuke is one of these; there are others.

    LikeLike

46. im –“Thanks im for being honest.

    Just a note, and we’ll leave it there:”

    That’s how I began this and I meant it.

    “Go to Catholic Answers or the Envoy forums. Do your thing there for two weeks. Then give us a full report.”

    That’s like someone telling you to go ask the SBC what they think of your views.

    I blog here because I mostly agree with your perspective, and I am actually growing on my spiritual journey by being able to share my experience and get challenged by the responses.

    “You need to make a pilgrimage to EWTN, brother. Ask for Mitch Pacwa when you are there, and give him your views on church authority and Protestant communion.”

    I mostly turn off EWTN when Fr. Pacwa is teaching but make it a point to listen closely to Fr. Groeschel, who expresses views on EWTN that it seems to me would be shocking to you if I, a professed practicing Roman Catholic, expressed them here, and he’s the Director of the Office of Spiritual Development for the Archdiocese of New York.

    LikeLike

47. Thanks IM. To continue the discussion on salvation & hell (by the way – you do very well maintaining multiple conversations on your blog)

    #26. I’m also hopeful universalist …. however you say “I have no Biblical reason to think hell is less than permanent”
    There are some verses which indicate we face death or eternal life …. eg “the wages of sin are death … vs eternal life”, “for God so loved the world … that we might not perish but have eternal life”
    There are a variety of views regarding final destinations that are all apparently supported by Bible verses. For me, the choice is more philosophical & relates to my view of God.
    – If people are only saved on earth via the standard evangelical ways, then overall God, whose “will is that none should perish” seems to have done a terrible job – probably only 5-20% of people who have ever lived were ‘saved’ (by evangleical standards’ meaning that 80-95% of those people who God loves will be suffering permanently in hell
    – Normally God punishes people for their own good – ie so that it will lead to redemption, or so that they stop causing problems for other people. Eternal punishment in hell doesn’t have either of these results – it can only be retributive
    – There are moral issues with permanent punishment for sin that was committed in temporal time
    – Brian Mclaren in “The Last Word & the Word After That” paints a picture of christians having a party with Jesus upstairs, while in the basement the un-saved (including many of our loved ones) are suffering horribly with no hope of escape. I add to this some numbers – 5-20% upstairs, 80-95% downstairs. This makes it hard for those upsairs to enjoy the party (knowing their loved ones are suffering). Also …. I hope the Jesus I follow would go downstairs to do something to help those he loves but are suffering
    – However, if one adds to the traditional view of suffering in hell the concept that redemption & salvation might somehow be possible for those that are in hell (as suggested by CS Lewis in The great Divorce), then the concept of a permanent hell becomes more tenable. ie only those who persistently resist the goodness of God will continue to suffer in hell. It seems to me that the Bible is fairly silent on this concept, but doesn’t rule it out
    So … hell might be permanent …. but I hope that people aren’t stuck there with no chance of escape

    #27 and #28 I agree that “The sinner’s prayer is not Biblical and has nothing to do with becoming a Christian. It’s a piece of evangelical manipulation.” I was in a pentecostal church where it was common to have an ‘altar call’ & then hear “that’s x more people in heaven & x less people in hell” – how untrue.
    Interestingly, only one person in the gospels was told about being ‘born again’ (Nicodemus in ?Jn3) & apparently told this in private. Other people were told or demonstrated alternative repentance ‘methods’ eg the rich young ruler (mentioned in 3 gospels), Zaccheus etc – yet evangelicals typically focus on the ‘born again’ version/formula.
    Also – not much attention is paid to Matt 25, where the sheep & goats get sorted out based on deeds – the only place Jesus talked in detail about judgement.

    Re tithing – the typical teaching on tithing is terrible hermeneutics. yet churches need the money, so they keep teaching it. There is a good book written by Dr Russel Kelly who did a PhD on the subject of tithing. He also wrote a summary (if you don’t want to read all 279 pages of the book) – both are available for viewing here http://www.edgenet.org.nz/tithing.aspx

    LikeLike

48. iMonk, you know that I’m on the total opposite side of the spectrum from you. But even I blanched a bit when a seminary prof of mine was ripping into RCIA “because it gives the impression that adult baptism is normative.”

    It was all I could do to shout “So does Acts!!”

    LikeLike

49. Great post, great comments. 90% of the people at my church would disagree with about half, and our pastoral staff would decry fully 18/25 of them (and not understand a couple of the others). Why in the world do I still go there?

    Oh yeah. Because my local options are limited…

    On the tithing: I have thought this for years, and it’s become a very heavy cross to bear when your pastor preaches it at you every single sermon, and your church is in the middle of a $4M building program that’s 3 years behind schedule, and missionaries come to speak and say that they can build a church in Indonesia for $10K… But nobody will stand up against it. Michael, you’re dead on– it’s become a tool of manipulation, and many pastors/preachers/Church CEO’s are adept at wielding it. I only practice it as a spiritual discipline, but I’m soon going to be a little more specific on how it’s used…

    LikeLike

50. I liked the quote about preferring being sold Amway products over young-Earth creationism. Here’s my take on YEC: It doesn’t work scientifically, it isn’t necessary for a Biblical understanding of sin and salvation, and it is an unfortunate obstacle to the proclamation of the gospel among scientists.

    I am an old-Earther, and yet believe in a real Adam in a real garden committing a real sin against a real command and suffering real consequences, and in Jesus Christ as the only solution for our sin problem.

    LikeLike

51. Ky boy,
    The Southen Baptist Convention. I believe the certification program is through the NAMB (state side missions arm of the SBC if you are unfamilar with it) and Biola University.

    LikeLike

52. Michael,

    Your list sounds so….free.

    I’d like to get there some day. Before I die. I can’t seem to let go of the formative years instruction. Why can’t I just let it go?

    One day I’ll be with Jesus and my real life will begin. Right?

    And if Power Point is the spawn of Satan, shouldn’t it be more interesting, Steved?

    LikeLike

53. Rick
    “first female to be certified as an Apologetics Instructor in our denomination *Gasp Again*.”

    What denom?

    LikeLike

54. On the seminary thing, we do have a couple of Scholars at our local Southern Baptist congregation that do teach classes that are nearly equivalent to seminary level. 2 of them are women *Gasp*, and one of those was the first female to be certified as an Apologetics Instructor in our denomination *Gasp Again*. So, for a very conservative congregation, we are making some progress with #10 and #11. Anyway, I do find it very valuable to be fortunate enough to have these men and women teach courses for only the cost of materials (usually less than $20 for a book or two).

    LikeLike

55. im guessing we could all add to this list and then nail it to every church door in america and the cumulative result from the church at large would be a big sigh.

    LikeLike

56. Im with you on all but number 1,10, and Im 1/3 of the way on with you on 11 and 1/2 way on 25
    Not a bad batting average monk are you sure your not on steroids……….

    LikeLike

57. “11. I’m going to be in trouble now: I believe the blindness towards the general bias against women and the actual mistreatment of women is a failure in evangelicalism that far outweighs the issue of racism. Evangelicalism has a lot of men who respect and love women as Christ did, but it also has a massive amount of men who don’t like women, disrespect and mistreat them.”

    iMonk, this is a terrific, thoughtful post. But point #11 really deserves to receive much more attention. It is so true.

    LikeLike

58. Brian;
    “Tithing 10% to a church institution can end up actually impeding Jesus’ commands to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, etc. Today too often we build ever bigger buildings with more amenities with more staff, as opposed to funding mercy ministries, missions, etc.”

    I’ve felt this way for sometime. There’s something about the assumption that the tithe has to go to the local church. Suppose that I go out and feed the hungry,clothe the naked, and help to heal the sick. Does that money count if it isn’t washed through the local church? I’m not talkng about IRS regs either. Suppose that we take Jesus’ command seriously and give minimal money to the institution, but buy food for out neighbor who s hungry. Suppose that we really can’t afford money, but donate time instead.

    LikeLike

59. Surfnetter, ever feel like wandering over to comment on an SSPX site? 😉

    LikeLike

60. Go to Catholic Answers or the Envoy forums. Do your thing there for two weeks. Then give us a full report.

    LikeLike

61. So far you’re the only one who’s busted me 🙂

    LikeLike

62. Imonk,
    I agree with you on some and disagree with you on others. We can probably punch holes in each others arguements. I think, overall, we as Christians struggle with the word Conviction. Where do we plant our flag? And how tenuously do we tie it to the Great Commission?

    I think we as Christians have been getting it more wrong than right ever since the Ascension.

    Just like the Israelites before them.

    Amazing that God puts up with us at all…..

    LikeLike

63. You’re a little late there, Surfnetter. The evangelical internet doctrine police busted me long ago.

    LikeLike

64. And who is the evangelical equivalent of Fr. Pacwa …?

    I’m sure you and he get along just fine …. 🙂

    LikeLike

65. Michael, that’s a very interesting angle on infant baptism and one I hadn’t thought of before. Hmmm. Have to think about that a bit.

    As regards the James Ossuary, I think that it’s probably a genuine ancient ossuary. And that’s about all we can say for it. As a very amateur archaeology buff, I’m familiar with the loooong history of fakes provided for tourists/amateur excavationists/professionals who really should know better in the Middle East. Egypt is notorious, of course, but it’s a problem everywhere: when everyone wants a piece of the history for private collections/museums, a thriving industry in grave-robbing/smuggling springs up and forgery is the natural hand-maiden to these endeavours.

    I’m also very suspicious of convenient finds that ‘prove’, ‘demonstrate’ or ‘support’ Name Your Theory. And what made my antennae twitch about the James Ossuary was (1) naming him as specifically the ‘brother of Yeshua’ but with no other family connections. What, no bar-Joseph? Nothing about his mother and father? That seems very out of character for ancient cultures (and coming out of Ireland, where who your father and mother are and all their family and your relations and connections are still very important) it didn’t quite ring true to me (2) I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, and we got it with the ‘Talpiot tomb’ and surprise, surprise – ossuaries for all the family, including Mary Magdalene which ‘proved’ she was the wife of Jesus etc. etc. etc.

    Yeah. I’ve seen the way Eric von Daniken re-interpreted archaeological remains for his ancient astronaut theories and I’ve seen the ongoing game of ‘who was Jack the Ripper?’ (Patricia Cornwall’s little brain spasm was just the latest) so… I tend to be very “Yeah? Prove it!” when these kinds of things come along. Though I do enjoy them 🙂

    LikeLike

66. Shawn: I’m not following you. How does that passage interact with tithing and sabbath errors?

    LikeLike

67. Chaplain Mike: It might raise the profile of the subject of evangelism and church planting. (The most depressing hour I ever spent as a churchman was in a meeting where a PCUSA Presbytery was talking church-planting. Oh wow.)

    But really, we need to get baptism, evangelism and church membership straight in all our confessions, then unite in agreement that the great commission is about evangelism, not just reaching our own families- as important as that is and always will be.

    LikeLike

68. Regarding tithing and sabbath…How does 2 Timothy 3:16-17 play into the discussion? Do you think we abuse those verses when discussing those topics?

    LikeLike

69. Is it possible that an influx of evangelicals into the mainstream churches that practice infant baptism might lead to a better balance of “evangelism” through biological growth and great commission obedience?

    LikeLike

70. Surfnetter: You pick the Catholic venue and I’ll be more than happy to air my views.

    And you can moderate all you want.

    You need to make a pigrimage to EWTN, brother. Ask for Mitch Pacwa when you are there, and give him your views on church authority and Protestant communion.

    🙂

    LikeLike

71. Can I moderate …? 🙂

    LikeLike

72. I think we as a church hold on to the 10% tithe giving as a protection against actual New Testament giving habits.

    The church is lead to be generous and sacraficial in our giving. That means doing more than giving some extra money to our local church (although I do find supporting a basic meeting place and pastor’s needs worthwhile), more than giving clothes you don’t want anymore into bins, more than donating extra cans of food to soup kitchens. Godly love applied to wealth is a radical, mindblowing thing.

    To me, Christian giving is seeing your personal larder as food God has given not just to you, but to any person who walks in your door. It means giving up eating more luxurious foods so you can have enough to feed both your family and every guest who comes through your door. It means instead of getting more stuff you don’t really need at holidays, asking people to contribute to the real needs of those around you. It means forgoing cool cable channels and other extras so you can contribute to a missionary or a worthwhile charity. It means letting the mom with the kids who are going crazy go in front of you in line at the grocery store, even when it feels like you’ve been waiting forever.

    New Testament giving habits actually hurt to apply. You look at your worn out clothes, your crooked glasses, your rice and beans for dinner, and you wonder what was it for. It is for glorifying God. It is for the poor guy who now has socks, the girl who now has glasses, the guy who finally has some beans to add to his rice.

    And if a Christian isn’t involved enough in any community that has some needy people in it to try some of these things, I mourn and ask why not? What are you afraid of? What other priorities are standing in the way? Do you really know no one, at church, in the neighborhood, in your extended social circle who could use a dose of rolled up sleeves type help?

    LikeLike

73. Just like we get to do when you air your’s …?

    Sure. ;-p)

    LikeLike

74. “In” the RCC? As “In” your corner of supportive non-conservatives.

    Can I pick the “in” and watch what happens when you air your views?

    🙂

    LikeLike

75. Thanks im for being honest.

    Just a note, and we’ll leave it there:

    We (lay persons, anyway) are actually allowed to be this honest in the RCC, despite what Protestants demand of us … 🙂

    LikeLike

76. One more random thing: I am SO doing this on Facebook!

    I’m part of a little network who has jumped all over the 25 things about me. People have surprisingly responded to this with hilarity and enthusiasm.

    I suspect my list will be a bit less theological, but I’ll guarantee it’s with the same passion as my esteemed example.

    LikeLike

77. Ky boy:

    “That’s not a good argument. Most of the kids in college think they are getting trained for a nice job. Not all survive the reality with their ego intact.”

    Then college needs to change or students need to be reeducated. My wife is dealing with this now. She went through an accredited counseling program with a 4.0, and proceeded to have to spend more than $2k to take further courses to take a licensure exam (which has little-to-nothing to do with actual counseling).

    My rant about seminaries already stated, I will say one thing: For me, seminary was like boot camp (with apologies to your vets out there who know the real thing). It was a refining process, and I left sharper and more mature. I also left with a tool bag. But with precious little skills for actually leading a church. I’m not suggesting abandoning an educated ministry, but merely insuring that we put some practical skills in the tool kit.

    LikeLike

78. KW: I agree with you and with many good writers on the sabbath principle. But it’s not a command to keep Sunday as the Christian sabbath. It’s a worthy imitation of the old covenant to honor the sabbath as Jesus did by honoring God as the God of sabbath whenever we take it.

    Remember that sabbath was the seventh day, but it was also part of the life of a nation. We are a different nation, and our “day” has started in Jesus and never ends.

    peace

    ms

    LikeLike

79. Punky: I’m not that unusual. You are normally subjected to the 5% of the evangelical world that chooses to use the megaphone. Most people in the evangelical world are much closer to me on these issues than anyone knows. They simply can’t be honest or choose to be quiet.

    Thanks for reading. BTW, I think Christians are atheistic and agnostic on many questions. We do not believe in every articulated conception of God, but only God as revealed by Jesus. (Therefore, most of what is said about God can be safely ignored as nonsense.) And we should be agnostic about anything that isn’t directly related to the main message of the Bible, i.e. Jesus.

    LikeLike

80. Each individual item would generate a mad rush of comments; it’s no wonder there’s a giant pile following this post.

    Amen on everything but #22 and #23.

    I see your point about Jesus being our Sabbath rest, but I still think the point behind the Sabbath was not to give us a glimpse of heaven so much as it was a practical way of keeping the Hebrews—and us—from working themselves into the ground or suffering from major burnout, and getting us to actually enjoy God’s creation. As Jesus said, the sabbath was made for us. Stands to reason that He never meant to diffuse it.

    As for tithing—nobody teaches on it properly. They skip its actual description in Deuteronomy 14—where two years out of three, we’re to spend our tithe on ourselves—and jump to Malachi and pretend that he’s talking about funding the church. I won’t say we should ignore tithing, but I would at least recommend we read what the scriptures actually do say about it.

    Otherwise we’re 92 percent in agreement. I knew there was some reason I keep coming back here.

    LikeLike

81. Tim W
    “This is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone question the validity of the idea of the sinners prayer.”

    Putting words in MS’s mouth I don’t think he said it was invalid. Just that it wasn’t a requirement.

    LikeLike

82. Hi, I found this link because of a posting by a local preacher I know personally who writes a blog on our little local paper.

    I read your posts and several comments (not all I am at work and I *must* actually do work) and I want to say how refreshing!! WOW!!!

    Just quickly. Full disclosure – I’m agnostic. However, the views you clearly expressed and most of the comments posted by readers are not the typical Christiany viewpoints that I am exposed to/interact with on a daily basis, nor the experience I had in Catholic school… And that is a great thing!

    I guess I just want to say..thank you and being an early American historian – I esp. loved #2 and right off the bat – thank you for #1 🙂

    LikeLike

83. DP: No, but our ideas of submission and “roles” are very cultural. Evangelical complementarians seem to have a sort of Victorian era fascination with a mythic idea of family. Very unlike Proverbs 31 or any other culture where women worked for the family to survive. The modern western “homemaker” is a cultural construct.

    LikeLike

84. This is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone question the validity of the idea of the sinners prayer. Definitely gives me food for thought!

    LikeLike

85. “Meaning…just because tithing has been abused, doesn’t mean there isn’t an important principle behind it. I’m, not going all “prosperity-gospel” on you….just saying that the principle of giving has a point.”

    Tithing 10% to a church institution can end up actually impeding Jesus’ commands to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, etc. Today too often we build ever bigger buildings with more amenities with more staff, as opposed to funding mercy ministries, missions, etc.

    Whereas Jesus clearly taught that if we give something to Him, we give it to “the least of these,” many twist that around to say giving to God only can be giving to the church. Martin Luther railed against this very thing — it was a sign of corruption in his day just as it is in ours.

    As far as to what level of generosity is appropriate, given what I have, my parsimony is shocking. I know that when the early church fasted from certain foods, part of the purpose was to save money (those foods were costly) so they could give something to the poor, as they themselves were poor.

    I give more than I used to, but I can’t shake the conviction that my comfortable lifestyle and modest giving represents as much a compromise of Biblical teaching as sleeping around would be, and that my way of life has to change for me to keep growing, not as an issue of legalism, but of obstacles to grace that I leave in my own path.

    LikeLike

86. As someone soon to be married, do you also see the Ephesians 5 commans for household to also be cultural?

    LikeLike

87. Your comment on the so-called “sinner’s prayer” made my day!

    LikeLike

88. Actually never saw it.

    LikeLike

89. “24. The whole concept of revival seems like a confused mess to me. A bit of truth in there, but mostly it’s a lot of tradition and manipulation.”

    I’m guessing but I bet you liked the movie “Leap of Faith”. Especially the ending. 🙂

    LikeLike

90. “If we take away the bread and circuses, we have to understand that a lot of people were only there for the bread and circuses.” Perfect!

    My 2 cents? I think many WANT the U.S. to be a Christain nation, because it sure makes life a whole lot easier. I grew up Lutheran, went to a Lutheran school, most of my neighbors were Lutheran, so I never questioned Lutheranism (or for that matter, Christianity), because I was never confronted with anything else. Being a believer was simply what everyone did.

    And AMEN on the seminary education thing. I now work at a seminary, and besides the debt incurred, I’ve never met a more insulated from reality crowd in my life, whose studies mostly center on learning more that they might point out the flaws in everyone else’s doctrines. Probably a reason Jesus chose fisherman and the like for disciples!

    LikeLike

91. It has been fun reading the comments. Better than an episode of Seinfeld.

    LikeLike

92. If anyone wants to waste their time trying to get me to change my mind on something on which I am convinced from scripture that I’m right, fine. I don’t have a problems with churches that forbid women pastors, nor with those that allow them.

    And I don’t have problems with those who wear head coverings, or those who allow them. Oh wait.

    LikeLike

93. “I still give, and am trying to make it possible to give more, but I give very little to my home church.”

    At the AMiA church we’re getting ready to join they said 10% was a reasonable goal but to give based on your prayful consideration. Also to find some good missions to support, either down the street or on the other side of the planet, but don’t just give to the local church.

    Also the clergy at this church state they will not find out how much any one person gives unless that person wants to tell them. And they don’t want to be told.

    LikeLike

94. what about living in “Da End Times”? ? ? 🙂

    superb list!

    LikeLike

95. ) Tithing is deeply ingrained in evangelicalism and has been the foundation of lots of abusive, manipulative episodes. It’s also the foundation of the prosperity mindset for millions of evangelicals. We need to tell the truth on this one. I think many ministers do and more will, but we’ll have to say “GASP” what our ancestors said was wrong.

    Wasn’t it Lewis who posited that the existence of a counterfeit doesn’t disprove the existence of the real thing?

    Meaning…just because tithing has been abused, doesn’t mean there isn’t an important principle behind it. I’m, not going all “prosperity-gospel” on you….just saying that the principle of giving has a point.

    It becomes a fetish in some churches, for sure.

    Yet…..even though I am not “technically” required to tithe…..I would have a hard time not doing it.

    LikeLike

96. I’m just completely dumbfounded in how a verse forbidding the ordination of women can be interpreted as cultural accommodation in a culture that had no problem with women serving in religious functions. In fact it was for this reason Paul had to address the issue! He certainly would not have had to tell them to stop if the people had thought there was something wrong with it. If the men had thought there was something wrong with it they would not have let it happen in the first place.
    It was anything but cultural accommodation.

    LikeLike

97. Let me respond to both:

    1) I think the 11 a.m. brick and mortar church has never been in more trouble, and I certainly don’t ever say a think here or in 3D to prop it up. I do think we need to have a positive and respectful attitude toward the traditional church, but the 11 a.m. service in the building we’re funding is no longer part of the Christian experience of a massive numbers of evangelicals. On a side note, I think facilities are potentially important in secondary ways, and I am in favor of a concept of sacred space. But I’m not in favor of the financial and administrative lengths we go to to create that space and perpetuate it. It can and should be simple. A storefront can can be as sacred as a cathedral.

    2) Tithing is deeply ingrained in evangelicalism and has been the foundation of lots of abusive, manipulative episodes. It’s also the foundation of the prosperity mindset for millions of evangelicals. We need to tell the truth on this one. I think many ministers do and more will, but we’ll have to say “GASP” what our ancestors said was wrong.

    LikeLike

98. Andy Wood
    “#14 – I once heard someone say that “seminaries train people for jobs that don’t exist.” ”

    That’s not a good argument. Most of the kids in college think they are getting trained for a nice job. Not all survive the reality with their ego intact.

    Computer Science is notorious for this. Now the nursing program my son is in is at the opposite end. A key point is the last 2 years of the nursing program is basically a co-op situation with classes mixed in.

    LikeLike

99. Michael, as a Lutheran, you know where I differ from you. But something more about #2: I have been saying this over and over again – not because I have something against the US, but because of my own experience, and that of “my people”. I grew up as an “Afrikaner” in apartheid South Africa. The Christian Nation nonsense not only destroyed the nation, but alos the witness of a large swath of Christianity. BTW, chances are, in less than a century, the Afrikaner as a nation will dissapear. And the Christian nation stuff, that was used in conjunction with all kinds of political messages, played a key role in that.

    LikeLike

100. Michael,

     I accept the premise that there are no NT demands around a Sabbath, and I couldn’t agree more about your statement on Sunday nights and Wednesday nights. I find it interesting however that while we want to appear enlightened and liberated on the subject, we don’t apply that same logic to one of THE sacred cows of evangelicalism; the Sunday AM “worship” service at a brick-and-mortar facility.

     As for tithing, why bother arguing? Based on actual giving, very few are listening to this kind of manipulative teaching anyway. I do find it interesting that with the exception of a few outliers (or as the diet adverts say in the fine print “results not typical”) anti-tithe discussions are almost always used to justify less generosity, not more.

     LikeLike

101. Can you combine various parts of verses into one sentence and say it’s a Biblical command? That would make a great board game.

     The New interprets the Old. The Old and the New in any other relationship will yield the very problem Paul is ranting about in Galatians.

     LikeLike

102. I looked for something to disagree with but I can’t find it. Quite unlike the Sunday services I attend.

     I have gone all over the map on the tithing issue in my years of life, and in the last 3 years or so have come to your side of the fence. I still give, and am trying to make it possible to give more, but I give very little to my home church. I suspect I would give much more to my home church if it were a small country parish or something like that. But it’s a sprawling megachurch with staff and benefits and buildings and all the accessories, and is still pushing growth. I give my time to both adults and children in the church, but until the church comes to a true financial crisis that requires it to lay off most of the staff and abandon the building, I plan on giving directly to people who are feeding the hungry. Some will call me a cynic, and they’re probably right. Some will point out that if everyone did this the church would fail, to which I say failing at constant expansion might be the best victory they ultimately have.

     LikeLike

103. 2. I don’t believe America is a Christian nation. I actually don’t believe there is such a thing, and if there were, America wouldn’t be one. Not on paper, not from the founders and not now. We’re a secular republic and I like it that way.

     And we weren’t A Christian Nation (TM) in the 1950s, either.

     14. I believe in an educated ministry, but I don’t see much reason for traditional seminary. It’s expensive and inefficient to a fault. We need mentoring, apprenticing, church-centered programs, etc. The seminary product is about to become the buggy whip of evangelicalism.

     I see an analogy to lawyers: In law, there are two ways to become a lawyer: Get a degree from Law School or “Read the Law”.

     “Reading the Law” was common in the 19th Century (especially on the American frontier), but fell out of use during the 20th as Law Schools dominated. Basically, “Reading the Law” was a combination of home study and apprenticeship to an experienced lawyer who would mentor the apprentice.

     16. I believe too much technology has screwed up preaching to the point of a three alarm fire. We need Bible preachers with very basic communication skills, not cool guys with gadgets. We have been stupidly naive about how much technology has helped us communicate the Gospel.

     I’m a “technogeek” and I sure wouldn’t trust myself to have the wisdom to “communicate the Gospel” properly. I KNOW technogeeks are NOT wrapped that tight; I know how prone they are to idiot-savant syndrome and tunnel vision on their high-tech toys.

     I understand in the Army they call REMF technogeeks “PowerPoint Commandoes” — total nimnulls outside of their Powerpoint presentations.

     18. I believe in creation by God, but I’m not a young earth creationist. I’d really rather you try to sell me Amway or insurance than try to change my mind on that one.

     Unfortunately, YEC Uber Alles has become one of the three litmus tests as to whether you’re REALLY a Christian. And all heretics must be burned.

     24. The whole concept of revival seems like a confused mess to me. A bit of truth in there, but mostly it’s a lot of tradition and manipulation.

     And if you’re from a Holiness-type background, it’s the only spectacular-style entertainment you’re allowed to attend or enjoy. I think that’s a part of the appeal of a Tatted Todd/Shaking Stacy/Angel Emma — when all other forms of showmanship are forbidden, you’ll glom onto the only one allowed even more.

     25. I don’t believe anything in the field of sensational Biblical archaeology: chariot wheels in the Red Sea, for example. I’m big on archaeology, but after I fell for the James Ossuary, I’m very skeptical.

     “Sensational Biblical archaeology” (type example: “Ark-ology”) appeals to Christians’ desire to find some Absolute Proof which they can rub in everyone else’s face — “SEE! I’M RIGHT! YOU’RE WRONG! SEE! SEE! SEE!” And those assailed by doubt flock to anyone or anything (or any con man) who promises that Absolute Proof.

     (As an aside, I have burning memories of attempts at Christian SF whose entire idea story was “We Finally Find Absolute PROOF! of Christianity/Young Earth Creationism/Noah’s Ark/etc”. The most unforgettable was the flashfic in World mag years ago where they found Genesis 1 encrypted on the human genome, thus PROVING “Intelligent Design/YEC”. And a lot of future-setting Christian SF seems to include “commercials”/asides telling how Evolution Was Completely Disproven sometime in their past/our future.)

     LikeLike

104. Michael,
     On both the Sabbath and tithing you state it isn’t a new covenant command. Fine, we can debate the merits of both the Sabbath and tithing. But my issue is with the statement, “it isn’t a new covenant command.” From what I understand the New Testament commands are not exhaustive nor comprehensive. The authors of the New Testament understood the foundational nature and role the Hebrew Scriptures play. The Holy Spirit, Gospel and Church community all play a role in developing our understanding of how the law now applies. But I may be nit-picking here. Great post as always!

     LikeLike

105. In Brian McClaren and Tony Campolo’s 2003 book “Adventures in missing the point”, they have a chapter critiquing seminary and raise many objections. All of their objections about things that traditional seminaries don’t do but should, NTS does.

     LikeLike

106. I find #22 interesting, because over the past few years I’ve been convicted that Sabbath IS necessary.

     And for #23, I believe a critique of tithing practice is appropriate, but I think the New Testament sets a good precedent for, at the very least, giving offerings to help those in need.

     But those are only my personal thoughts.

     The one I most wanted to address was #14:
     “14. I believe in an educated ministry, but I don’t see much reason for traditional seminary. It’s expensive and inefficient to a fault. We need mentoring, apprenticing, church-centered programs, etc. The seminary product is about to become the buggy whip of evangelicalism.”

     I hear this way too much, and too many young ministers hear older experienced ministers say this and use it as an excuse to ignore ongoing education. Yes, there are many horrid institutions and professors out there, and those need to be weeded through. But I don’t see why that requires a blanket statement that traditional seminary is unnecessary or useless. As my only personal experience with seminary, I can say that Nazarene Theological Seminary in Kansas City is an excellent institution, with the majority of professors being above par. While I’m sure many will object based solely on the denominational association, if NTS is excellent, I have to think there are others.

     LikeLike

107. I don’t believe in tithing as a requirement either, but… I am sure that most people who are against tithing are just cheap and selfish. They want to spend their money on themselves. Just look at all the crap in their houses.

     hahaha…that had me lol-ing out loud.

     I kind of feel the same way, but wouldn’t have worded it exactly like that.

     LikeLike

108. You mean your not joining the hunt?!

     http://scienceandcreation.blogspot.com/2009/02/new-search-for-noahs-ark.html

     Can you elaborate on this:

     “…and if we actually advertised what the reformers cooked up in the Reformation, a lot of Protestants would take the bus back to Rome in the morning.”

     Thanks!
     Craig

     LikeLike

109. #22 is very interesting. I once had a priest tell me the Sabbath was a “grey zone”. Your definitely right about Sunday as the break from the Sabbath. That only makes sense if you accept the authority that designated it. especially given that the command was to “remember and keep” the Sabbath.
     Personally I think it’s worthwhile to take time out to thank God, as long it doesn’t become an excuse not to tip the waitress. Cheers

     LikeLike

110. I don’t believe in tithing as a requirement either, but… I am sure that most people who are against tithing are just cheap and selfish. They want to spend their money on themselves. Just look at all the crap in their houses.

     LikeLike

111. 1. Marriage became bowdlerized in the West long ago, and will eventually be discarded here as our culture dies.
     2. For at least 1000 years, Christians believed that a “Christian nation” had to be a monarchy. Now we sanctify Enlightenment democracy. Sounds more like nationalist myth and syncretism to me.
     4. The modern definition of inerrancy is modernist error. How ironic.
     5. Spending gobs of time at church is a substitute for holiness.
     7. Entire swaths of evangelicalism use Bible study as a substitute for discipleship.
     9. Some of the stuff in Leviticus informs Gospel passages, like Jesus’ healing the leper.
     10. The ban on female clergy becomes incoherent in Protestant theology.
     11. The American church attracts moral troglodytes. I don’t see a way out of that in the current framework.
     12. Institutional Christianity is like the bark on a tree. It is dead, but it protects something alive.
     13. Infant baptism only makes sense in a culture where the family and community come before the individual.
     16. If we take away the bread and circuses, we have to understand that a lot of people were only there for the bread and circuses.
     17. Americans are totally screwed up on the idea of authority.
     18. Young-earth creationism is modernist error just like theological liberalism is.
     20. Catholics have a vastly more coherent moral position on life than evangelicals do.
     24. The American concept of revival is just emotionalism.
     25. There is whole industry of “Biblical” fake science out there to prop up fundamentalism.

     LikeLike

112. patrick lynch

     I guess I just don’t feel a need to sit here in the 21st Century and use our cultural mindest and standards to pass judgement on our ancestors.

     The prohibition against Papist made a lot of sense considering the problems with Spanish Florida. You call it secterian, I call it good common sense in that day’s political climate.

     KY boy

     I just don’t see how hard of a stretch believing the Genesis account as written is. I mean once you accept that Christ was God in carnate and the virgin birth, creation is not that hard to beleive either.

     But that’s just me.

     🙂

     LikeLike

113. I applaud you for publishing this list, almost all of which I agree with.

     It’s encouraging that you share openly what I, for the most part, feel constrained to keep to myself.

     LikeLike

114. #23 – I disagree, but so what?

     #14 – I once heard someone say that “seminaries train people for jobs that don’t exist.” Amen! (I have a right to say that ’cause I ARE a graduate.)

     Something is wrong when pastors can parse a verb or “systematize” their theology (I want to puke) but can’t lead or even get along with people… and where more than half are out of the ministry within five years of graduation.

     LikeLike

115. The biggest problem, on whose door do you nail your 25 thesis to actually get attention. And mandatory
     wed. and Sun. is bad, but if you really want to…
     Would an adherent to the Imonk 25 be funded to plant a church?

     LikeLike

116. DaveMc: ‘On the seventh day he rested from his labors’. ‘Enter ye into my rest.’ “Come unto me all ye that are heavy burdened..I’ll give you rest.” Most importantly…’The sabbath was made for man…not man for the sabbath.’ ‘Be still and know I am God.’

     I believe the sabbath to be a time of ‘stop everything and spend time with me….your spiritual rest and salvation…God.

     LikeLike

117. Do a search on Barth on the IM search engine. I’m very influenced by Barth, though I don’t wear names, other than Robert Capon.

     LikeLike

118. Number 8, Michael? You’re serving up sacred cow kabob, here, bro.

     LikeLike

119. iMonk,

     You said, “#26. I’m a hopeful universalist, but I have no Biblical reason to think hell is less than permanent.” and you happen to be a fan of Peter Enn and you are no longer a Calvinist…

     The question that comes to my head after hearing such things is…are you a Barthian? If not, I am very curious as to what extent he have influenced you…

     LikeLike

120. Great post. A few thoughts: for some answers as regards #17 (the baaaa factor among evangelicals), I highly recommend reading Bob Altemayer’s The Authoritarians. You can download it for free at: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

     About tithing, my view is that we are called to be charitable to whatever extent we can, but this need not be in the form of giving to the church. For instance, I’ve built a little community school in Nepal (to which much more than 10% of my income has gone). To me, this is tithing. I do appreciate my church and want to contribute to it’s existence, so I mow the lawn, rake leaves, and shovel the walk, depending on the season, and do other little jobs besides. Of course, labor-trading doesn’t work for paying the electricity bills or printing orders of service, so I’m glad that somebody is putting money in the collection plate, but insisting on a 10% tithe to the church (whether from gross or net) is legalism, pure and simple. The commenter who said that the real idea is to keep us from becoming attached to our wealth is right on, imho.

     As for seminary, lots of denominations are looking at reforms in that field right now. As a prospective seminarian, the resulting debt-load is the biggest issue. “Want to serve your church and community? Ok, pony up 40K!” Just seems like there’s something inherently wrong with that. I’m willing to live a life of poverty (already do, actually, see above) but I’m not too keen on going back into debt in such a big way. Something’s gotta give.

     Again, great post. Thanks for having the courage to put it yourself and your beliefs out there. We need more voices like yours.

     peace.

     LikeLike

121. Amen on most of those, and I’m willing to consider the rest.

     LikeLike

122. Very interesting Michael.

     While I disagree with 10 I do agree with 11, but in the long run I don’t believe in any positional authority in the modern church. I think during the early church we did have more of a line of authority like what the RC claims, but I think that is all grasping at straws now.

     I look at pastor as a description rather than a title, which means of course that I have been pastored by women.

     I don’t really have an opinion about young earth versus old earth. I don’t buy the hermenutic used by young earthers, but on the other hand I believe that much of the science used to claim dates for the age of the earth are contrary to scientific method. In the end it is pretty irrelevent to me.

     Other than that I think we would make most of the same people angry with us.

     LikeLike

123. austin
     “Not to be too much of a party pooper here, but, and here comes your Amway pitch, if one doesn’t believe in the young earth, at what point does one start believing the Bible really is authoratitive?”

     Well….

     Oh, nevermind. You can read all about it here:
     https://internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-the-creation-museum-in-kentucky-reviewed-in-the-new-yorker-june-2007

     LikeLike

124. “12. I don’t believe there’s all that much good about institutional Christianity.”

     Really? I never would have caught that from reading your blog . . .

     (jn) Just tweaking you a bit . . . 🙂

     LikeLike

125. Jeremiah Lawson
     “I just give from my take-home pay. That’s pretty much it. The people who have argued for giving from gross I’ve met tend to own multiple houses and have an investment portfolio and work for churches.”

     Well I have none of the above. I don’t argue that you should tithe off of net or gross. Just that neither is a true reflection of income in all but the simplest of cases.

     My wife gets a paycheck from an airline. She gets a gross pay. But above that there’s some SS tax which in theory we get back later. Ditto money to her retirement fund. Then there’s the gross but before tax medical coverage, medical pre-funding, child care pre-funding, life insurance, etc… Then there’s the after tax savings and a few other things. Then there’s the “we fly free if there’s an empty seat”. So even her NET isn’t a true reflection of her pay. Coming up with a number to apply the 10% rule to is almost impossible without a very large spreadsheet and some big assumptions about the future value of money.

     And my situation is even worst. I’m self employed which means I have to do this dance with expenses to allocate to business vs. just things I want but don’t “need” in my business.

     My point is saying take home pay is all one needs to consider is a bit simplistic for many of us.

     Maybe not for you.

     LikeLike

126. I think that having scholars teach in the church would be an ideal solution. My main concern is that if seminaries start to focus more on “practical” ministry, then it could become more difficult to build a new generation of scholars who come at theology from a Christian perspective. Not impossible, just more difficult. The church needs to nurture its future scholars of the faith just as it does its ministers of the faith.

     LikeLike

127. If you read the references to tithing, it is quite eye-opening. The tithe is to be taken to the place where the Lord will place His Name, and then you are to have a big feast, with your relatives, servants, priests, etc. If the place where the Lord will place His Name is too far, you are to turn it into money, and then go the the place where the Lord will place His Name, buy food, wine, strong drink, anything you want to eat, and have a big feast/party. Every third year, you were to bring the tithe to the storehouse, and that would feed the priests, aliens and strangers, widows, orphans, etc. that were around. In Malachi, I’m convinced that the call is to bring all of the “Third Year” tithe into the storehouse, since that was the only tithe brought to the storehouse.

     LikeLike

128. Michael, you don’t think that having scholarly adjuncts to churches wouldn’t cause a lot of problems? Conservative churches inviting scholars that they soon discover are heretic liberals (….) sounds like the recipe for a lot of ridiculous brushfires. I can only imagine the complaining parents of kids have learned a little secondhand Greek or the Early Church Fathers, to say nothing of the authority struggle.

     LikeLike

129. Why can’t church communities invite scholars to join them, and then use them to teach? I’d walk 100 miles to do that any day.

     LikeLike

130. Great list, and I agree with almost all of it.

     The seminary question is one that interests me as a seminarian with no aspirations for full-time chuch ministry. It seems to me that ministers, at least in the Baptist church, are expected to be and do everything. They have to run programs, visit the sick, counsel, teach, preach, and be scholars, and so they need training in everything, so then there’s debt and wasted time.

     I would like to see more flexibility in training and roles for both ministerial staff and lay people. My own passion is in theological study, and I would hate to see that kind of knowledge shift entirely to the academic world and out of the church altogether, but there have to be better ways of sharing that knowledge than requiring the minister to have it all–and do everything else.

     LikeLike

131. “early on in the settlement of the colony a group of Jewish settlers were granted permision to land primarily b/c there was a need for a doctor and they had one (Sam Nunis if I remember correctly) the GA charter forbade Papist (their word not mine) from entering GA so there was at least some evidence that the founders intended to create some sort of standard for the religion of the new colony”

     In modern times, we understand these to be racist and sectarian impulses, and consider them examples of political injustice – also, keep in mind that the colonies were run by governors answerable to the crown, not to each other. So Georgia’s governor could (and governors frequently did) make up their own draconian rules and enforce them. That’s not a good or even an unusual thing – it’s just power.

     LikeLike

132. iMonk, there is quite an argument going on among secular archeologists over the James Ossuary. While the media gleefully announced its downfall, it continues to engender much argument, particularly the charge that the Israeli archeological authority has been acting purely politically in this and other artifacts that come from what they consider unapproved provenance.

     I agree with a lot of your points. You can probably guess where I would disagree. GRIN. However, you are spot on about infant baptism.

     In practice, I worry more about teenagers and college student age folk who have friends with privileges than I do about the gay agenda. Given the statistics on Christian behavior, I think that there are more damaging things going on in our groups that need to be dealt with.

     LikeLike

133. Scott: I’ve said all these things many times in IM posts. I’ve never withdrawn a post unless it was going to cause a problem in my family of get me fired. And if I have withdrawn a few, I’ve published thousands in 8 years. So I’ll say I’m pretty open.

     David Allis:

     #26. I’m a hopeful universalist, but I have no Biblical reason to think hell is less than permanent.
     #27 and #28 The sinner’s prayer is not Biblical and has nothing to do with becoming a Christian. It’s a piece of evangelical manipulation. We are saved by living faith in all that God is for us in Jesus as expressed in the Gospel. There’s no “prayer” that makes that happen. It’s the work of the Spirit in an individual life.

     LikeLike

134. Tithing is the number one reason why the church is ineffective. People give to the church, which builds a bigger building and adds more programs, and props up the ego of the pastor. Whereas 100 years ago churches built hospitals.
     Maybe this is the source of increasing government intrusion in our lives. The church will no longer help people so the government has to do it.

     LikeLike

135. Well done.
     I agree with them all …. except the ones about preaching …. I think preaching as it is practiced in churches today is extra-biblical (in the NT, preaching is ALWAYS linked to evangelism – not to teaching long-term pew-sitters). Preaching also is a poor form of education, and creates dependence …. see http://www.edgenet.org.nz/ideasfromedge/problemwithpreaching.htm for a more detailed explanation.

     A question – what are your thoughts regarding
     #26 eternal/permanent suffering in hell with no chance of redemption ……
     #27 eternal hell as a permanent destination for those who don’t say some sort of “sinners prayer” here on earth ….
     #28 the effectiveness of a ‘sinners prayer’ to get an individual into heaven, even if they don’t live a changed life after they say the prayer ….

     Maybe the list of 25 points can be expanded some more?

     LikeLike

136. Hear hear!
     And all this time my friends thought I was crazy. I agree with you on virtually all that you said, but I can’t even say such things around my friends. Inerrancy, tithing, sabbath, Christian nation. Like one previous poster said, they are indeed all litmus tests to orthodoxy in evangelicalism.
     I read you new IM posts first through the feed in Google Reader. Usually when I see a post like this you have withdrawn it by the time I click on it. 😉

     LikeLike

137. J. Michael Jones: Seminary is not only inefficient, it puts almost all ministers in major debt, which is promoting a sin the Bible specifically tells us to avoid. Requiring a minister to graduate with a $40k debt in order to be ordained is crazy.

     I believe there is hope for another way, but academic types will have to lead the way by taking the risk to come out of the seminary setting. Or seminaries need to find a way to do what they do without driving students into debt.

     Also, seminary is almost totally for the full-time vocational church staffer, and that’s a group that’s about to get much, much smaller.

     LikeLike

138. Let me just use my own supposedly evangelistic denomination as an example. Actual Paedobaptists can come to their own conclusions, but those conclusions are evident in many cases, though probably not all.

     As the SBC has begun baptizing children of younger and younger ages, it has baptized hewer and fewer converts. I was a church youth minister for 13 years, full time, and I saw this first hand. The focus becomes our kids, not the community. Evangelism = reaching our own children, and that’s where the programs and the staff go. Conversion evangelism takes a back seat and more and more of the focus of the church is on teaching, catechizing and retaining the children of members. Less and less emphasis is on actual evangelization of the lost outside the church.

     I’ve heard many people say that we must reach our own first. Few ever ask if baptisms in an SBC church are all our children or are from outside the church.

     Over time, this has a serious detrimental effect on evangelism, and the SBC is seeing it now.

     I believe that most infant baptizing churches know that this has been the overall effect. I’ve had people write me and say that evangelism = having and discipling as many of our own kids as possible.

     That’s fine. But the Great Commission is clearly to cross cultures and reach those outside the existing church.

     I don’t want this to become an infant baptism thread. Wright makes the case and I’m just amening him.

     peace

     ms

     LikeLike

139. I virtually agree with all, with some reservations about 14 (seminary). Okay, I get your point, however, how do you avoid the dumbing down of the pastorate? I mean, I think a great prep for the pastorate or any teacher would include things like a scholarly education in church history, world history, philosophy, psychology and of course original languages of scripture. Can those things be done in the context of an informal (maybe formal ) apprenticeship?

     LikeLike

140. Have to disagree with you on Sunday night church. I stay up late on Saturdays and thus I like to sleep in on Sunday mornings. There is probably nothing more peaceful than ending/begining my week in worship.

     at least in my case, I believe tithing is quite beneficial. Especially in our society (USA), I think money tends to have a stronger hold of our heart than most things….we love our money, we tend to equate our heap of money with security and happiness. I would bet that if people were really honest about it, their reluctance to tithe is a hesitation to let go of that illusory security. Or maybe I’m the only one.

     iMonk, I’m surprised the subject of puppets didn’t make it in the set of 25 🙂

     LikeLike

141. Imonk is on to something on the tithing

     I always preach the tithe as an ideal, a goal, a good standard but not neccissarlly (this thing needs spell check)

     Christ always fulfilled the Law then extended it’s expectations (see Sermon on the Mount)

     so i tell my folks if they want to be new testament about it then let’s have all things common

     i’m being facitious I know but the point is made

     LikeLike

142. K Bryan and Lynch

     I’ve never asserted that the founding fathers intended to establish a theocratic govt. but you miss the point b/c you fail to appreciate the federal vision of the founding fathers, many if not most of the states had sate religions (not something I think was a good idea) so there was not reason for them to put in place a neccisarily christian govt. it was not a federal issue only the protection of all religion as pointed out by the reference to the Bill of Rights

     I also fully agree that they were not evanglelical and would have felt very out of place in much of today’s Christianity, however, one does not have to be evanglecial to be Christian now do they, that is sort of the whole idea behind this blog site no? 🙂

     and one aside as far as my state history goes (GA)

     early on in the settlement of the colony a group of Jewish settlers were granted permision to land primarily b/c there was a need for a doctor and they had one (Sam Nunis if I remember correctly) the GA charter forbade Papist (their word not mine) from entering GA so there was at least some evidence that the founders intended to create some sort of standard for the religion of the new colony

     LikeLike

143. Sorry Michael, could you summarize what infant baptism has done to evangelism? It really does not compute for me, and I don’t have the book and others probably don’t either.

     LikeLike

144. It seems to me that the 58th chapter of Isaiah has some pretty good guidance as to the quality of our worship and the sabbath. I think the quality of our worship as described in the first 12 verses is probably the more important consideration here. Maybe I have it wrong, but the sabbath as we now observe it is a very wonderful and renewing weekly celebration of Easter morning. In all things though, the defining litmus test rest in Jesus’ summary command on loving God and loving others. Beyond this I find myself falling into the trap of legalism.

     LikeLike

145. Thanks, iMonk. That’s really interesting. I’m going to mull that over…not that I’m trying to get out of tithing! Just truly a viewpoint I’ve never heard or considered.

     LikeLike

146. Jen:

     Sure.

     Tithing is an old covenant religious law, fulfilled and done away with in the new covenant. It was actually considerably more complex than a tenth, and was for the maintaining of the priesthood and the temple, which we no longer have because Jesus has fulfilled both.

     There are no commands to tithe in the new testament at all. The new covenant teaches that we give as the Holy Spirit leads and enables.

     Institutional churches have used this concept to manipulate church members for years. I was brought up under a kind of prosperity Gospel teaching that used Malachi- and old testament book about funding the temple- to convince people to give to the local church a mandatory 10%.

     Like the supposed prohibition on moderate use of alcohol, this is a manipulation of the Bible that can’t be sustained from the Bible. It’s not in the NT. Jesus didn’t teach it and neither did his apostles.

     peace
     ms

     LikeLike

147. You’re a hoot, Michael.

     I’m being perfectly in earnest when I say that it brings delight to my soul that EVERY TIME I COME TO YOUR BLOG, I laugh, I smack my forehead, I say “Amen!”, and I roll my eyes. Why on earth would I want to trade that kind of complexity for perfect Borg-like agreement in every conceivable minutia? It’s so great. Praise the Lord for this crazy, mixed-up thing we call the Body of Christ.

     LikeLike

148. iMonk,

     Can you elaborate on your point on the tithe. I’ve never heard that point of view–always have heard about giving the 10th. You’ve piqued my interest.

     Most everything else, I agree with!

     LikeLike

149. Sorry, forgot to post a link to the book I mentioned:

     LikeLike

150. @imonk: Once again, it looks like you have read my mind. I could have written 24 of the 25. Since I’m leaning toward Lutheranism, I’ll take a pass on the infant baptism issue. 🙂

     @austin: re America as a “Christian Nation”. IMO, the following book provides a definitive refutation of that idea from a Christian perspective:

     Noll, Hatch, and Marsden are all evangelical Christians, so it is not possible to accuse them of anti-Christian bias. (Well, maybe _possible_, but certainly not reasonable).

     Here’s a simple question re “Christian America”: If the founder of our country intended to make a “Christian Nation,” why is that intention nowhere apparent in the country’s founding documents?

     The Declaration of Independence makes vague references to God, giving primacy to the Laws of Nature OVER nature’s God. Those references, while compatible with Christianity, are not exclusively Christian. Indeed, in giving primacy to the laws of nature, they are more Deist than Christian in character.

     If the founders intended to create a Christian nation, surely they would have made that intention explicit in the constitution. Yet there is no mention of God in the constitution, and there are only two mentions of religion: in Amendment 1 and in Article VI Section 3 “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

     When trying to determine if the founders of this country were trying to create a “Christian Nation,” their personal religious beliefs don’t matter, as those personal religious beliefs don’t have the force of law. What matters is what those founders wrote in the documents that served as the foundation for the government of the United States. Nowhere in those documents is Christianity explicitly mentioned. That would certainly be a strange state of affairs if they set out to found a “Christian Nation.” Further, the two mentions of religion in the Constitution explicitly the freedom of religion for both citizens and elected officials.

     In sum, there is simply no historical evidence that our founders were trying to create a “Christian Nation.”

     LikeLike

151. Ky boy, I just give from my take-home pay. That’s pretty much it. The people who have argued for giving from gross I’ve met tend to own multiple houses and have an investment portfolio and work for churches. So if they give from their gross income back to the church that employs them I get that but their conscience isn’t my conscience on the issue.

     LikeLike

152. Amazing. Every word is the truth.

     LikeLike

153. Sorry I can’t think of anything clever to add….just ditto, imonk. You think as I do!

     LikeLike

154. Geoff D: You mean that check for $10,000? It’s not legit?

     Martha: In short, I was impressed that Ben Witherington III was impressed. The James Ossuary wasn’t an “anti Christian” deal. It was supposedly a reference to Jesus.

     LikeLike

155. I was going to ask about infant baptism, but I see you’ve already dealt with that.

     Hmm – your lot’s definition of “inerrancy” sounds very like our lot’s definition of “infallible” 🙂

     The James Ossuary? You thought that was legit? If it’s not too embarrassing, can you elaborate? I’m not wanting to point and laugh, but the first thing I did when it was plastered all over the media was roll my eyes and bet myself that it’d be a “National Geographic” special with Elaine Pagels, Bart Ehrman and the Jesus Seminar crowd shoehorned in somehow.

     Of course, as a Papist, I tend to think that if it was any kind of a proper relic, we’d have it in Rome since the twelfth century 😉

     LikeLike

156. I Monk ,I apologize for anything that might have been posted a couple of minutes ago under my name. My daugther was goofing around on the computer after I had logged on to this thread. I dont even know what she wrote.

     LikeLike

157. Also, I could never be a young earth creationist, and tithing is OT. If one wants to push it, then one should also follow all the myriad of levitical laws. On homosexuality, Christians need to realize that their children may be gay, and although they may fake it, or even be celibate, they cannot change their orientation.

     LikeLike

158. How does Heb 4:9-11 play into your thoughts on Sabbath? Isn’t the author of Hebrews recommending a continued observance awaiting the final Sabbath, as Wesley says:

     “Since he still speaks of another day, there must remain a farther, even an eternal, rest for the people of God.”

     Is there a “farther” fulfillment to be awaited with Sabbath or is it fully realized? If there is fulfillment to be awaited, then can we say that though Christ has purchased our Sabbath, that our consummation awaits and is to be longed for in current observation?

     LikeLike

159. I totally agree with your points about women, but there is probably an evangelical “fatwa” against you as we speak! As a Canadian, I have never thought I lived in a Christian nation, and am quite content to live in a secular constitutional monarchy that has freedom of religion in our charter of rights. I don’t agree with all your points, but that is the beauty of the freedom we have in Christ, we can differ on issues.

     LikeLike

160. “You also have to have a pretty jaded reading of history to not appreciate the Christian character of the country, most of western civilization at that time, and the majorities of the founders.”

     I think you’d be surprised at how… un-Evangelical the Christian faith of the people you’re referring to (Western Europe in particular) actually was. Statements like this are best rebutted with books:

     http://www.cambridge.org/uk/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521553612

     http://books.google.com/books?id=PvwBeL-YjkoC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=winners+and+losers+in+the+american+religious+economy&source=bl&ots=DkTBaCKF0v&sig=uGsb4Vu7Iu-c75Ojh-l44CXTyOg&hl=en&ei=c0iKSeeKFtW5twfZsoShBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

     Also, studying in depth the Inquisiition, the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation and the development of the KJV will really dispel any illusions of prior ages being more pious than ours. They weren’t. Good luck!

     LikeLike

161. oops i meant 17, not 16…

     LikeLike

162. “24. The whole concept of revival seems like a confused mess to me.”
     I’ll take that a step further: America no longer has a clue what true revival is. 2Chron 7:14 gives us as good a roadmap as any:
     1. Humble ourselves
     2. Pray
     3. Seek God’s face
     4. Turn from our sin
     We like #2m and we’ll even pay lip service to #1. But #4? Not a chance. And until (or unless) we decide to do it God’s way it ain’t gonna happen.

     LikeLike

163. Christopher Wright is one of the scholarly authorities on baptism who is respected around the world. He is a paedobaptist.

     His book “What has Infant Baptism Done to Baptism?” is crucial reading. He says what has to be said: Infant baptism may be Biblical, but as practiced and implemented in most churches, it has been a major inhibitor of evangelistic conversions. I would add in credobaptistic churches like the SBC that baptize young children.

     Read the book.

     LikeLike

164. Micael Spencer, I think I am in love with you…
     You brighten my day every day.
     AMEN AMEN AMEN

     LikeLike

165. How connected do you think 10 and 11 are?

     #3 and #16 are spot on.

     #21 – made me think of how on Tuesday my pastor said that he got a lot of angry e-mails for even mentioning NT Wright in a sermon. This probably relates to #16 as well. Mentioning = Agreeing

     LikeLike

166. Not too many comments tonight. Everyone must be at Wednesday night services!

     LikeLike

167. Not to be too much of a party pooper here, but, and here comes your Amway pitch, if one doesn’t believe in the young earth, at what point does one start believing the Bible really is authoratitive?

     And if one does not believe in a young earth, then where do you cut that off? Is the account of the fall acurate? Or is that just a story explaining how things are and not why things are?

     Also,

     Trying to culturalize an argument for women preachers is really stretching the fabric of the text there. It’s funny no one saw that much until the last 50 years or so.

     And,

     You also have to have a pretty jaded reading of history to not appreciate the Christian character of the country, most of western civilization at that time, and the majorities of the founders.

     Dito on Sunday night, especially if it’s a Sunday morning lite program.

     I agree that homosexuality is not the worse thing attacking the family, divorce is. But as someone who has taught teenage children for over 10 years I can tell you it is a problem and a very real threat.

     And lastly, hold on to your hats, I would argue that Slavery as practiced in Western Civilization and specificly the American South was not in itself un-Christian as an istituion b/c there is no scriptures condenming in.

     LikeLike

168. “I’m willing to give from my take-home pay but I’m not persuaded to give money Uncle Sam takes from me even though I’ve heard Christians try to make the “first fruits” argument for years.”

     Then I assume you add back in the amount the company puts into pre-tax benefits? Health care, retirement, use of the company gym, etc… And any tax refund you get at the end of the year? Minus any sales and property taxes paid?

     I understand your sentiment but it’s a hard road to follow in the details.

     LikeLike

169. What the hey does infant baptism have to do with evangelism?

     LikeLike

170. #4 (inerrency) and #18 (YEC) are inextricably tied together. If you are stuck on #4, then #18 is the natural conclusion. Since YEC is demonstrably false, what does that say about the current demands of inerrency?

     LikeLike

171. Your going to burn for number 8 – the Cult of Expository Preaching will be out for you.

     LikeLike

172. YES! YES! YES!

     Double ditto for this nation!

     LikeLike

173. It’s tragic that so many hot button issues you mention (personal views on homosexuality, biblical inerrancy, women as spiritual leaders, evolution, how to oppose abortion etc.) have become lithmus tests of one’s orthodoxy within evangelicalism. I still have a hard time believing that one well known theological seminary for the longest time would require all students to affirm a certain eschatological viewpoint regarding the rapture of the church and Christ’s return before admitting them (I’m not sure whether they still do)- never mind the oodles of useless books that have been published to debate those issues with such zeal that one could think our very salvation depended on it!

     LikeLike

174. I see 2 and 24 as connected. I don’t see America as a Christian nation and I don’t think revival is going to bring us back to a more “Christian” time. A lot of what I’ve seen of revival talk looks more and more like pining for a revival of civic religion and national/cultural ascendency for Christians who are wistful for days when they had more clout than they have. Call me cynical but that’s where I’ve been on that for more than a decade. Evangelicals are better at using Jesus as a talisman to get the things we think we deserve than we often admit.

     On point 23 I agree and I particularly don’t buy the argument that you should not only tithe but tithe off your gross income rather than your net. I’m willing to give from my take-home pay but I’m not persuaded to give money Uncle Sam takes from me even though I’ve heard Christians try to make the “first fruits” argument for years. If all the money belongs first to God then whatever Uncle Sam takes first is God’s money given to Uncle Sam. It’s the money that shows up on my paycheck that I get to steward.

     LikeLike

175. I couldn’t agree more with most of what you said. I am so glad to be free from fundamentalism which helps me to enjoy the good things the world has to offer and enjoy my relationship with Christ more at the same time. This is from one who has come from an independent Baptist to conservative Southern Baptist background. I still attend a Southern Baptist church but find myself being pulled toward the Episcopal church even with all the craziness that goes on there.

     LikeLike

176. I am so glad I found this blog. What a great list!

     LikeLike

177. Ky Boy:

     Argh! You are haunting me with things I spent 20 years saying to church members. Age grouped programs!! Age grouped age groups!! RAs!! GAs!!

     Turn my Wayback Machine off!

     peace

     ms

     LikeLike

178. Jesus kept the Sabbath perfectly. He and his salvation are our sabbath rest. No command to keep a sabbath is in the NT, and there are passages warning us about false spiritualities that include sabbaths.

     If Christians did keep the sabbath, it would be Saturday. Nothing about Christians worshiping on the “Lord’s Day” (their name btw) is a replacement sabbath. The sabbath is fulfilled by Jesus even if we await its actual arrival in time.

     Every day and every place is our sabbath and temple. That’s quite clear in the NT isn’t it?

     “Give it consideration.” If someone wants to they are free to, but not from Biblical command and not in a way that binds anyone’s conscience as some have tried to do in the past.

     Christians can greatly benefit from sabbath keeping as a personal discipline, but it isn’t a new covenant command. We should always be careful when using any OT practice. It can be done, but only with the Gospel as the controlling principle.

     LikeLike

179. “5. Sunday night and Wednesday night church services ought to be against the law.”

     Wednesday nights are needed. They give families a way to meet at church for activities. Instead of all during the week and all over creation. And the Baptist tradition of a meal there means a family can go and skip Wendy’s yet the kids still have time to do homework.

     LikeLike

180. Looking for friendly interaction on one of these:

     Could you elaborate on “22. I don’t believe Christians are supposed to keep a Sabbath day.”?

     I’m not a strict Sabbatarian, but isn’t the principle still worth consideration even if some have taken it too far?

     If the book of Hebrews still has a hopeful looking forward to the final Sabbath rest, shouldn’t we keep the Sabbath in some way in anticipation of future Sabbath rest? The sacrifices went away when Christ fulfilled them, but aren’t we still awaiting fulfillment of the Sabbath?

     LikeLike

181. Amen. I don’t think there is very much here that I disagree with and that by only slight degrees. Great post and strong courage. Keep up the good work.

     LikeLike

182. WOW, you must’ve been reading my mind! There’s not much I can say except to add to #16

     Power Point is the spawn of Satan.

     LikeLike

183. What you said! (Great, great post, imonk.)

     LikeLike

184. Interesting list. I come from a very different background (now in the United Methodist Church) and I can agree with almost everything you say.

     Kudos for being willing to say it all!

     LikeLike

185. Michael, I’d be interested to hear an expansion of your views (or others) on a Sabbath. It’s another thing a lot of us take for granted.

     And thanks for your consistency in rejecting tithing. You’re the only guy in America saying this.

     LikeLike