Matt Stokes responds like a reasonable person. Good blogger, Matt. Good.
It’s all over Facebook. All over email forwards. All over Christian discussion sites and blogs. All over evangelicalism and elsewhere.
It’s Red Envelope Day:
Hey everyone, I just was invited to a group on Facebook that I thought would be good to give you the heads up on. It is an event where on March 31 everyone who opposes abortion and wants to let President Obama know about it will send a Red envelope addressed to:
President Barack Obama
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW
Washington , D.C. 20500
On the back you should write:
“This envelope represents one child who died because of an abortion.
It is empty because the life that was taken is now unable to be a part of our world.”
This would be a great way for all your pro-life people out there to let Pres. Obama know that you don’t approve of killing innocent babies.
So, Internet Monk audience….especially those of you who have been around a while…Why does “Red Envelope Day” bother me? (And why does it bother, or not bother, you….if you like.)
The Internet Monk Archives 
Doesn’t do much….Well, apparently it does a lot. It separates the real pro-lifers from the pretenders.
I mean, if you don’t love Jesus enough to wear a blue t-shirt on Thursday, what kind of Christian are you?
🙂
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I find faddish stuff like this similiar to Facebook causes. Maybe good intent, but at the end of the day doesn’t really do much.
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Matt,
Thanks for saying what needed to be said. You weren’t early and you weren’t late – just about right on time actually.
It’s not a bantering game.
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I know I’m late to the party and these thoughts will largely go unread, but here goes anyway.
I find the cynicism that predominates these comments downright discouraging.
Why is it that sending an envelope and doing something active to fight abortion are mutually exclusive?
Working full time in the pro-life movement, I have been greatly moved by the number of people who have been incredibly grateful for the one small thing they were asked to do that really got them involved in pro-life work.
I know people who were pro-life their entire lives and did nothing about it, until someone invited them to a picket at an abortion clinic. Or asked them to come pray. Or invited them to attend a city council meeting opposing a new abortion clinic.
Any of those things in and of themselves are as meaningless as everyone here wants the red envelope campaign to be. But you have no idea for whom this might be the gateway into active, passionate work on behalf of the unborn.
What’s more, you have no idea how many of these envelopes are being sent by people who are currently doing active, passionate work for the unborn.
I’ll tell you this much, pretty much every person I know who is doing exactly that has sent an envelope.
Not because we think it will be the magic button that stops all abortions, not because we’re idiots who don’t understand that stopping abortion isn’t within the direct purview of the president, but because it’s something. It’s an outlet. It’s a way of expressing the outrage and grief we feel over the 3,500 dead babies that lie in dumpsters and drains every single day in the United States.
And if you can’t allow people an outlet for that kind of emotion, if you’re going to begrudge them the $1.42 they’re going to spend on this gesture, if all you can offer is carping and cynicism, then I don’t know how to even begin to explain to you what this campaign means.
Everyone who’s suggested better things to do than sending red envelope: Great. Do it. Don’t talk about it on a blog, don’t tell other people what they should be doing instead, just go do it.
If the Holy Spirit hasn’t laid it on your heart to send a red envelope to the president, by all means don’t do it. But don’t be that guy telling everyone else why their idea sucks.
Be the guy pursuing the idea that works.
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Mike,
I know you were being sarcastic in your Burger King paragraph, but ironically, doing those little things really WOULD be more helpful than the envelopes. I guess someone could turn it around and say that if doing those little things seems like too much effort (and I admit, I’m not doing them), abortion just isn’t that important to those people. I mean, seriously.. a real pro-lifer would do anything they could to help, especially if it just meant skipping participation in the latest conservatrend, or eating more pb&j sandwiches. To say that’s asking too much really shows how much value ones places on a baby.
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I wish the money spent on all those fancy envelopes and postage was going towards adopting orphans and foster children instead.
What an amazing stand would it be if Christians stood up and adopted all of the orphans. We’d truly send the message that not only is abortion wrong, but that the so-called “unwanted” little ones are wanted and will have homes and loving families.
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This discussion shows some of the sad predictability that this specific kind of action engenders. No one on here supports “killing innocent babies,” yet here we have a comment thread with all the usual simmering tensions. Here’s why. Watch carefully.
Let’s say that tomorrow I announce to my fellow teachers and staff that everyone who loves Jesus should wear blue next week to “make a statement.”
Now here we go. Division. Argument. Exceptions, etc. And all of it growing out of “Do you love Jesus enough to wear blue?” A condition I made up, that has nothing to do with loving Jesus.
It’s this kind of meaningless symbolism that causes division and argument for no reason. The whole plan is an artificial loyalty test. Satan must have a good laugh at what we do with these things. “Do you REALLY REALLY REALLY love Jesus? Why is your shirt only LIGHT BLUE then?”
ms
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Greg Boyd tells a story about a woman who takes in a pregnant teen who is turned out by her “Christian” family. She agrees to support the girl no matter what her decision (keep the baby or abort). The girl decides to keep the child. The woman helps her with the child, taking the teen into her home and helping her to go to college. Even when a)it costs her the friendship of the girl’s parents and b) she has to get a second mortgage to help pay for the girl’s college education.
Red Envelopes don’t do squat when it comes to solving the problem: people make mistakes, how do we communicate the grace and love of God to a country that is in the majority lost. Letting the love of God show through us will do much more to solve our abortion epidemic than sending Red Envelopes or standing outside of clinics and harassing those who are seeing help. A much more radical ides would be for those who are pro-life to stand outside a clinic and offer to help those who are seeking an abortion regardless of what their final decision is. Standing by a frightened teen or a scared rape victim or even a promiscuous woman who is getting an abortion instead of birth control will further the Kingdom of God more than all of the vigils put together. Maybe instaed of praying we should be loving the people who need it.
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First time to this site. Very interesting.
As for Red Envelope-gate . . . [mod edit]. The people participating in this little civic exercise aren’t under the delusion that they are going to change the laws on abortion, but there is no harm in it either. It’s a petition for crying out loud. I suppose writing a letter to the editor or to your Congressman is just as pathetic and pointless. Or posting on this blog . . .
You’re right JonB5200, we have no right to take any minor kind of stand against abortion unless we’ve ponyed up $50K to raise someone’s unaborted kid.
And yes, K Bryan, those Red Envelopers have unwittingly defunded crisis pregnancy centers because the cost of the postage for the petition could have gone to a crisis pregnancy center. Better yet, we are doing the same thing everytime the family orders take out at Burger King because, you know, we could have saved money by making peanut butter sandwich for the kids and sent the difference to the local pregnancy center. Or to JonB5200’s $50k fund . . .
And no, I didn’t participate in the [mod edit] petition.
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If we inside talking about how strange we can be as evangelicals it’s self examination and mostly healthy (silly, condescending civics lessons aside). God knows that we need the examination about our silliness, our self absorbed focus and our refusal to realize how much the world has changed. No problem with me in rigorous self examination and self criticism.
If on the other hand we are on the outside throwing rocks at those silly evangelicals then we are smarmy, self righteous pharisees judging others of the sins we are most guilty of. Be careful about throwing rocks out of the windows of your glass houses.
Shooting at the hypocrisy of liberals is ridiculously easy and utterly beside the point. Don’t get me started on the Catholics. 🙂 Everyone can profit from a little exam.
My point? There is a easy path to “other” the people we disagree with as a way of dehumanizing them and their point of view. Evangelicals have done it all too often. Be careful that you don’t also succumb. Self examination is a good antidote to the self righteous.
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I agree that this Red Envelope campaign is useless, just like the plethora of online petitions, pre-worded letters, etc. that we’re all urged to sign or send from time to time. Does anyone really look at these things? I have to believe that a heartfelt, carefully worded letter crafted on your own, sent in a plain white envelope, would be a much better way to let the President know how you feel.
Joseph: Take my stats up with the World Health Organization. I wouldn’t buy the WHO’s take on our low ranking. Really, just ahead of Slovenia and Cuba? As an RN who has worked for 25 years here in the states as well as in overseas medical missions, I can unequivocally say that the health care provided in our country is superior. The WHO’s rankings are filled with political bias and numbers games. This isn’t the place for it, but do a little research into the WHO and how they determined placement. (Try reading this: http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf)
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It may be a little late to post this, but the abortion issue came to the fore here in Australia last month when a pastor issued a media release
to say that the worse bushfires in our history were a result of legalizing abortion in the state of Victoria where the bushfires took place. (More than 205 dead and counting, two country towns burned to the ground, 40 meter high fire wall propelled by 100 km/h wind, people incinerated in their cars trying to flee) He did not call it God’s judgment but the removal of his conditional protection
Thoughts???
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Take my stats up with the World Health Organization.
Their last study showed we’re 37th in the world in the quality of our care, just ahead of Slovenia and Cuba, but 2nd in health care spending as a percent of GNP.
What does this have to do with Red Envelopes? Plenty. Red Envelopes are a more or less useless tool for bringing forth the Kingdom of God but embraced by many Christians, while more secular nations put our treatment of the poor to shame — ironically getting closer to the message of Jesus.
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“Finally, can anyone name any organization or institution which is as inefficient, bloated, or ham-fisted as our federal monstrosity?”
I can make a list of such organizations and institutions, every time I read the financial news and see which ones are begging the government this week for a handout/bailout/etc.
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“Finally, can anyone name any organization or institution which is as inefficient, bloated, or ham-fisted as our federal monstrosity? Our government does perhaps only one thing well: prosecute wars.”
Dysmas, I could nominate a church or two.
Headless Unicorn Guy, yep.
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Dysmas writes:
“We may indeed spend $1.30 for every $1.00 in medical claims filed (actually closer to the real figures than Joseph’s 3-to-1 figure). But can you imagine that actually getting better under Uncle Sam?”
Not sure how we got so far afield from the original topic, but actually, yes. Medicare has an overhead of somthing like 5-10%, considerably better than the private insurers from what I’ve heard.
As to the red envelope silliness, my main objection, as others have stated in various ways, is that actions like this are not the gospel, either in word or deed. It’s majoring in the minors. Larry Norman’s lyrics come to mind: “Stop marching for peace and start marching for Jesus, and peace will take care of itself.” Now there’s one musician I really miss.
Peace all.
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Dysmas, does embracing the ancient gospel also mean embracing every ancient way of doing things? What, in a nutshell, do you propose? And I, for one, will find your comment more compelling if you say more than just leave it to the beneficient ‘invisible hand’ of the free market. (Try to work the Red Envelope question into your answer to keep us from completely running off the rail :})
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Joseph,
The mind boggles at your grasp of economics related to healthcare. You write: “We spend more for less health care than most any other developed nation.”
Honestly, to someone who writes something as unaware as I cannot even fashion a response. However, I find it ironic that you would call yourself a fiscal conservative.
Finally, can anyone name any organization or institution which is as inefficient, bloated, or ham-fisted as our federal monstrosity? Our government does perhaps only one thing well: prosecute wars.
We may indeed spend $1.30 for every $1.00 in medical claims filed (actually closer to the real figures than Joseph’s 3-to-1 figure). But can you imagine that actually getting better under Uncle Sam? You think insurance company bureaucrats are mindless drones. Imagine doubling the number, reducing the collective IQ, and removing any incentive to perform. There you have a government monopoly. In fact, it would look as refreshingly encouraging as the Dept of Education or Energy.
Yikes!
Embracing single-payer Kool-Aid for economic reasons is ignorance of a sweeping sort.
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Caring more about children after they’re born, not red envelopes, will reduce abortion. — Joseph
But that’s too much like WORK! When Symbolic Gestures (TM) give us doublepluswarmfeelies for FREE!
I don’t know but it has been strange hearing people say the electoral college should be abolished while saying we need people who will uphold the Constitution. It’s a weird habit I’ve noticed across partisan lines. — Jeremiah Lawson
And all comes down to “I’m going to Personally Benefit from This.”
Kyle: “But Dad, isn’t that Fascism?”
Kyle’s Dad: “No it isn’t son. Because we don’t call it Fascism. Do you understand?”
Kyle: “Do you?”
Kyle’s Dad: “Look at this expensive new house we have…” (given to them by what’s effectively the new regime)
— South Park, “Sexual Harassment Panda”
…not to change hearts for Christ but to remind Wash DC of the raw political power of, say, a Dobson, a Falwell, or a Robertson. As in, “Look at all the people who obey me. And if you mess with me, I’ll tell them not to vote for you.†— Jon
Which “raw political power” will last only until the pols have a(nother) guaranteed source of re-election votes in their pocket and don’t need them any more. (“…and don’t let the door hit you on the way out. Stupid God Squad; we don’t need you any more.”)
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One of my main reasons for supporting universal, single-payer, health care is not Christian at all: $$$.
If I spend $3 on health care, $1 of that goes to the insurance company to pay for forms and appeals and employing people whose compensation is based on finding ways to deny coverage.
We spend more for less health care than most any other developed nation. As a fiscal conservative, I think we need to look at effectiveness and efficiency and not be bound by political theory and positions.
Those small businesses who would struggle with the intrusion of universal health care into their financials might find the bottom line improves.
I think universal health care would be an economic stimulus beyond belief. Taking health care out of the employment decision would remove a great amount of friction in the system.
But mostly I think we ought to do it because basing life-and-death health care decisions on income or where someone works is not how we are commanded to treat the least of these.
When did England implement universal heath care? After WWII, when they could not afford it but knew every citizen was owed a decent level of care.
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M Aggie, it doesn’t necessarily preclude doing more, but if it does so at all, why bother? It’s an impersonal gesture, meant at most, perhaps, to alleviate the conscience.
So why not, instead, encourage people to write to the president, or to their congressman or to a state legislator? Give them the addresses, maybe even the stamps, but not the words to write. Surely if you believe abortion must be stopped, you can articulate it in a nonrobotic way. Such a letter will carry more weight. Learn from your newspaper, which likely will print a personal, thoughtful letter to the editor, but will reject every time this sort of mass mailing, which everyone recognizes as corporate gimmickry.
Good grief. On the topic of abortion, of all things, shouldn’t we reject these impersonal methods and speak from the heart?
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But that intrusion costs money! It’s money that I cannot give to my church or to World Vision or Samaritan’s Purse. When the state takes on the physical care of society, the church cannot. And the church’s mission is therefore reduced.
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So not every protest is to your taste, nor mine. It’s still a modestly worthwhile if futile gesture, like a label ribbon. It doesn’t necessarily preclude doing something more substantial.
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Matt, I feared I get into a health care debate; my point was that, while it sounds good to say that the churches need to do more for mother and babies in poverty, they obviously are not doing enough. Otherwise, why so many like Joseph’s neice? Nor should churches, in my view, be solely burdened with such care, any more than they should care for all the poor and infirm, everywhere. The State has a legitimate role to play in these areas. The extent of that role makes for good public policy debate.
I grow weary of Christians (almost always men) who rhetorically decry abortion, yet, for purely ideological reasons, actively oppose any government role in improving the life of a woman who chose to have her child. A welfare check may be ‘intrusion’ to you; to a poor mother it might be the kind of welcome ‘instrusion’ that enables her to feed her child. Same for a public health clinic.
It seems to me that many Christians believe women have abortions simply so that they can keep on wildly fornicating. Rather, many women have them for economic reasons. No reason is a good one, I suppose, but we can and should do something as a society about the economic reasons.
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It is annoying because it is so futile.
A major problem with the abortion debate in this country is the refusal from those on both sides to consider that there may be common ground. Those who are pro-choice need to be able to concede that at some point (said point being a dynamic subject of debate, but nonetheless), we’re talking about a human being. And pro-life folks need to concede that there may be reasons to have an abortion, and a fertilized egg of eight divisions is substantially different from a fetus of 16 weeks gestational age.
The real common ground, which it seems like both sides conveniently ignore, although it is getting more play than ever before, is that we can ALL work together to reduce abortions. We can do this by caring more about the mother and the child AFTER the child is born (no mother should have to anguish over what to do with an infant with a 103 fever because they are uninsured).
Factual, age-appropriate reproductive education, to which so many evangelicals are so opposed, would also be a step in the right direction as far as teen pregnancy. As the mother of three teenagers, I can say with some confidence that information about sexuality is NOT what makes teens want to have sex; being a teen is what makes teens want to have sex.
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Joseph’s niece’s situation is rough, but more government spending is not the answer. Increased government spending would actually hurt this young woman’s job prospects in the long run, as her business and her customers would be squeezed by the tax increase.
Pro-lifers should support charities and churches with their time and their money (there is never anything wrong with writing a check), but to suggest that it’s hypocrisy to oppose Roe while also opposing increased federal intrusion into health care is just off the mark. I do agree that pro-lifers should do more work to offer care for those in need, but that’s a problem for the Church, not the State.
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Does any one know, by the way, who’s behind Red Envelope Day?
Maybe I’m cynical, but I think it’s too often true that such orchestrated events (e.g., calling the Senate on a particular day to make sure the phone lines get tied up, then releasing a press release to tout it) are actually designed not to change hearts for Christ but to remind Wash DC of the raw political power of, say, a Dobson, a Falwell, or a Robertson. As in, “Look at all the people who obey me. And if you mess with me, I’ll tell them not to vote for you.”
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Joseph and Jon – it is not hypocrisy. I’ll give a longer reply later, but it’s just not the same situation.
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How about if the envelope had this message-
“This envelope represents one child who died because of an abortion.
Enclosed is $50,000 that you can give to a woman to help raise the child she decides not to abort.â€
Putting your money where your mouth is a more consistent pro-life message than just protesting.
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I can’t resist echoing previous comments (particularly Joseph’s) that rightly note the hypocrisy of opposing abortion, rhetorically, while also opposing all manner of improvement to the public health system, including extending health insurance to mothers and babies in poverty. Red Envelope Day might have more substantive appeal if it did more than piously scold; if it, rather, included some support for more spending on health care, for example.
I realize that public health care is a volatile subject and that the means of improving it can be reasonably debated, but the circumstance of Joseph’s niece is shamefully too common in this country.
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jeuby, I’m not unaware of the limits of the analogy. The air force cadet appoints the marine drill seargant but the members of the army have to approve the appointments. Checks and balances being what they are focusing on just one branch of government is simply symbolic.
Last year there were prophecies that Palin was the Esther for our time. Well, arugably Esther chose her audience and occasion to make her case with care … and it would seem like evangelicals could imitate her example. This red envelope campaign focuses on an individual who was voted in by the electoral college. How many targeted political campaigns focus on members of the electoral college specifically? I don’t know but it has been strange hearing people say the electoral college should be abolished while saying we need people who will uphold the Constitution. It’s a weird habit I’ve noticed across partisan lines.
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I have a niece who got pregnant, and she didn’t have an abortion.
She kept the baby, works at a convenience store to support it, and goes to college at night.
She also prays that she doesn’t get sick, because she has no insurance and she can’t afford to go to the doctor.
Sure, the emergency room will treat anyone, but is that where you take your baby with a low-grade fever and cough, to hang out for hours and hours?
Caring more about children after they’re born, not red envelopes, will reduce abortion.
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I agree with iMonk’s point. But let us not forget that the force of law matters. When things are illegal, people are, as a matter of course, less likely to do them. So if abortion is not available, it would not be used as often as a matter of convenience. So while we clamor for financial support of doctors, adoption, clinics and all these other worthwhile endeavors, there is no shame at all in petitioning to make abortion illegal and in voting on that issue alone.
Having said that, Red Envelope Day is silly and ultimately useless.
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jeremiah lawson,
>11) when you don’t like a Supreme Court decision, evangelicals urge you to make a protest to the executive branch. Couldn’t that be compared to complaining to an Air Force cadet about Marine drill seargants?
well, when that particular air force cadet appoints those marine drill seargants, then yes complaining would actually be a valid response.
i’m not tryiing to validate the evangelical protest, just explain the line or reasoning used. and comparing president obama to an air force cadet is a rather poor analogy.
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There’s a reason why the constitution has not been amended to prohibit abortion. It’s called democracy and the will of the people. Perhaps we should all send red envelopes to each other instead of the person we elected to lead us…
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Ed,
I agree with you that we will never be able to make abortion illegal (and I’m not sure that we should any way.)
I have not, nor will not participate in the Red Envelope day. I appreciate Michael and commentors for giving me some reasons to ignore it.
That said, if there was a group praying outside of an abortion clinic, I would be there. I just wish that there were some groups near me doing that.
To the Other Jean,
It might not be planned for women to use abortion as a birth control method, but I’ve read enough antecdotal evidence to show that some women do.
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As for Red Envelope Day, I was invited by email to particiapate. I didn’t. Why would it be surprising that a nation who does not value God…would see millions of abortions done. Abortion in its initial intent was to be done in crisis situations,with the decisions being made by the person, their doctor, and their minister. The problem is not with Roe vs Wade. The problem is with those who so lightly abuse the intent of Roe vs Wade. 1Corinthians 6:12 reminds that just because something is legal…doesn’t mean we are to make use of that law for our own selfish purposes. And just because a thing is legal…doesn’t mean it is RIGHT. If Christians spent as much time sharing the love of God, through example, to the lost..as is we spend ‘talking’ about abortion and homosexuality, both problems would be lessoned immensely!
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Has anyone mentioned “tacky” yet? (In addition to all the other negatives…)
Makes me feel like the concern is about the red envelope, *not* about actual people who find themselves in difficult situations…
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….the sooner we can focus on reaching out to those that face the decision one-on-one. That is where the battle can be won. One person at a time.
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Dysmas,
In response to your question, I will simply reiterate what I said: Yes.
Others here have said it better, but the legally protected right to an abortion is never going to be overturned, and the quicker those of us opposed to abortion figure that out, the sooner we
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bob pinto: “To the majority of people, abortion is just another birth control method.”
Bob, in which country is that? In the US, for those of us who support a woman’s right to choose an abortion, it’s the last, wrenching choice to be made, not just “another birth control method.”
also: “Council, cajole, offer to help, and again, you’ll probably be the only one.”
Why do anti-abortion crusaders seem prefer a theatrical gesture like Red Envelope Day to the down-in-the-trenches work of making abortion much less necessary? Even if you’re the only one offering help, you’re still better than no one at all.
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“This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.â€
Taking this passage in its proper context, I don’t think this can be used to support red envelope day.
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For Ed, who writes: “Jesus said make disciples and teach them, the disciples, not the un-discipled. Like so many other cultural crusades, we put the cart before the horse.”
So, we ought to strain out the camels but swallow the gnats? We ought to tell the truth only to our own people? We ought to keep our mouths shut when the innocent are dying?
We need both carts AND horses. They go together. My thinking — naive, perhaps — is that a lot of red envelope people are doing more than red envelopes. Oh, the majority probably will feel good because they’re done their bit. But lots of us (well, lots of them — I’ve not bought my red envelopes (yet)) approach the death of children with a “both/and” mindset.
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For all who say the envelope money could have gone elsewhere…
“This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”
Maybe symbolism has a place, a point, and a purpose. Even annoying an arrogant, closed-minded, but nevertheless annointed political leader.
And it ain’t necessarily the recipient of the envelopes who the envelopes’ symbolic meaning is targeting.
FWIW, humbly
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Sure beats protesting the weather.
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Hey imonk,
i’d rather be a red letter christian (a la Tony Campolo) VS a red envelope christian.
whaddya think?
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It doesn’t bother me.
But a bigger impact is to be that lone voice in your family. To the majority of people abortion is just another birth control method.
Council, cajole, offer help and, again, you’ll probably be the only one.
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Should I feel bad I haven’t been asked? Is it a sign I am not taken seriously as a Christian?
Not that I would. It’s silly. This is the sort of stunt that only works in the movies. There’s a scene of mail clerks being drowned by red evelopes and then they cut to a scene where the Chief of Staff Says To The President “We’re Really Being Overwhelmed By These Red Envelopes. Maybe We Were Wrong.” And The President Slaps His Forehead And Says “YES! We Were Wrong.”
Cue eye roll.
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Okay. I have it. Forget Red Letter Day. Just send a note any ole time telling your political leaders that you oppose abortion. Does that make everybody feel better?
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Spending a few hundred thousand dollars to make ourselves feel good is making a statement?
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So I will not buy a Coke that day and instead join others in making a statement. What does it hurt?
All of you that are suggesting alternate things or just dissing this, what are you doing? If you are active in what you say then I congratulate you. [Mod edit]
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It sounds like some Chinese business conglomerate has figured out where they can dump all the red envelopes they didn’t sell for this year’s New Year celebration. The economy was slow so families weren’t giving away as much money. 😉
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Can’t read iMonk’s mind, but here’s why it makes me mad:
Jesus said make disciples and teach them, the disciples, not the un-discipled. Like so many other cultural crusades, we put the cart before the horse.
The greater impact of something like abortion is not the suffering it inflicts, instead, the greater impact is it’s ability to pull Christians away from the central, and infinitely more powerful work of sharing the simple Gospel message. If anything, this sort of thing widens the gap between us and those we need to connect with.
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It’s hard for me to believe how cynical most of these comments are…[Mod edit] Is this so easy that it should not be done? Is this so symbolic that it does not count? I don’t get the snarkiness and anger. And if someone thinks that sending in a red envelope is all I am doing, they have me very wrong.
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Ok- I’m a Brit- I don’t fully ‘get’ the USA (most of us this side would vote for Obama 2moro and didn’t ‘get’ Bush) so I don’t understand this.
I don’t like the idea of abortion, but I get the impression across this side of the pond that there are far too many USA Christians virulently opposed to abortion and turning a blind eye to ‘acceptable’ sins such as consumerism, militarism etc (and for me to say that, on the logs and eyes things means that maybe I am turning a blind eye to stuff as well!).
Really- are there click boxes at the bottom of that site saying ‘get your red envelopes’? Oh the irony- it is priceless!
Thanks for your thoughtful blog- I lurk and read most days. It strikes a chord. Thanks
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This post and the comments should be required reading for any group wondering how they can reduce or eliminate abortions. There is much wisdom here.
I had made the point on a different blog, similar to what K Bryan said above, stating that making laws against things (prohibition, prostitution)doesn’t stop the things from occurring. A fellow commenter asked me if I was saying there should then be no laws. He says, “People still steal. Should we get rid of theft laws? People still assault one another. Should we get rid of that law?” I explained I was not against laws, but I felt there were better ways to prevent abortions, namely by bringing up our children to respect their bodies and one another and to love God. And, if it comes right down to it, I must really believe that killing something that may consist of eight divided cells that would one day became a fully grown human being is not murder, because if I DID believe that, then I would think that the mother and the doctor both belong in jail and I just cannot make myself believe that. I have seen the graphic photos, though, of the tiny fetuses (sp?) all cut up and it gets to me. Even one only two months old looks all too human and it makes me feel ill. I just don’t know all the answers. 😦
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Bill Lollar
“It’s EXACTLY this sort of thing that makes me wonder if I should ever attend another American evangelical church when I move back to the states. So much hype and so little substance! Anyone want to start a church at Waffle House on Sunday mornings?”
As a friend said as our group at a typical evangelical church was breaking up. “Where do you go if you want to worship at a church where you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and science isn’t to be feared?
A group of about 20 of us are working through this now. AMiA seems like a great spot but the infant baptism and restricted congregational input (compared to my similar to iMonk Baptist business meeting upgring) give me some pause. A local fast growing emergent church has a great message if you can get past the aging rockers giving a concert with some sign along and calling it music worship. We’ve found a great teaching class at a non denom but it’s literally a 45 mile round trip. (I guess this is a sacrifice I may have to make.)
But our group of 20 or so has committed to meeting at least once a month in homes. I wonder what category we’d fit into in one of those surveys?
There ARE some great evangelical folks out there. And we’re all looking for a home. I just wonder where we’ll be in 10 to 20 years.
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I hadn’t heard of red envelope day till reading it here. Guess that means it doesn’t bother me. I learned long ago to ignore the abortion debate. No one is willing to sit and talk. They just want to stand outside and yell back and forth at each other.
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we enjoy our distractions.
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“Not just these red envelopes, but do any of you think that any kind of petitions do any good?”
Petitions to legislative members from VOTERS in their district are paid attention to. But the larger the district and the longer the time to the next election makes them have less impact.
Petitions to local and state legislative members and representatives to the House from voters have impact. These folks are typically on a 2 year cycle. Those to senators and executive head have less. Our system in many ways was designed this way. Some are supposed to be very responsive to voters, others more able to reflect and consider. Not everyone likes it when they don’t get “their way”.
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It’s EXACTLY this sort of thing that makes me wonder if I should ever attend another American evangelical church when I move back to the states. So much hype and so little substance! Anyone want to start a church at Waffle House on Sunday mornings? Woohoo!
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“2)It makes millions feel they’ve done something”
“What sacrificial acts did you have in mind?”
Working in a homeless shelter with people who might not have bathed in the past week.
Scub toilets at a said shelter.
Adopt a bady or few from poor single mothers who chose not to abort but who have no idea what to do with the baby.
Writing a check or sending a red envelope is sooooo much easier than really getting involved. Not that my work in this area is anything to hold up as an example.
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After reading Dennis not Dennis’ comment, I had the thought that maybe it was some kind of alternate application of the parable of the persistent widow from Luke 18 that people are trying to accomplish.
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Not too long ago, I got invited to a Facebook group protesting some movie in which Jesus is portrayed as gay. Someone commented on there that if I didn’t have time to invite others, I shouldn’t be surprised when God doesn’t have time for me. God is so needy these days, it seems. Oh, and the movie was fake. It’s amazing what a 60-second google search can tell you these days. I hate to go to hell over my failure to support a boycott of something that doesn’t exist, but I guess that’s just the way it is sometimes.
Anybody remember when Christianity was about Jesus? Yeah, me either…
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Exactly, and it doesn’t matter what the Supreme Court or Congress or the states have established in the last three decades. 🙂
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Big Chief,
Sorry.. I just reread and I think you were being sarcastic. I usually catch things like that pretty quick, but it must be an off day. If so, no explanation needed.
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Dear President Obama,
Yeah…I know you’re dealing with like a major financial crises, two wars, global Islamic extremist terrorists, reforming health care, and other stuff…but c’mon, let’s get to the real issue: ABORTION. Understand? So what if a vast majority of Congress are liberal Democrats who support it? Your the president, and you should stop it regardless!
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Big Chief,
Just curious.. Is it scriptural that God wants us to “use force when possible”? And if so, how does the red envelope project force anything good to happen?
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Sounds like a good chance to get purpose and method mixed up again. “If you oppose Red Envelope Day it means you like abortion”
(How about an Envelope Day where if you are for preaching the Gospel you have to send a dollar to IM? Then we get to all browbeat anyone who doesn’t send money as not being a “real” supporter of evangelism).
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I think it’s great. After all we’re all called to follow Christ. And it recalls the scripture passage (I think it’s in Matthew) where Jesus petitioned Rome to stop crucifying people because it was cruel and unusual punishment. It would be a waste of time to try and convert people one by one so that such a thing would be unnecessary. God wants us to work fast and use force when possible.
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Evangelicals remind me of a gaggle of teenage girls who flock to the restroom. Whatever they do, they have to do it in a crowd. And they need a leader to make up their collective mind and tell them when they need to go.
The person who dreamed up the red envelope probably needed to go. The rest of us don’t.
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“The Christian Way of ending abortion is living the Gospel through sacrificial acts that will reduce the “need†for abortion until we can practically eliminate it.”
What sacrificial acts did you have in mind?
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It bothers me because it simplifies a very complex problem, and thereby marginalizes the senders. This approach only perpetuates or allows them to believe that pro-lifers are uneducated, shallow, simplistic sheep following the commands of their leaders.
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11) when you don’t like a Supreme Court decision, evangelicals urge you to make a protest to the executive branch. Couldn’t that be compared to complaining to an Air Force cadet about Marine drill seargants?
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Not just these red envelopes, but do any of you think that any kind of petitions do any good?
Myself, I think most politicians or whomever just ignore them, unless it’s a very local issue and there is a lot of local feeling whipped up about it which would mean a loss of votes come election time – then the public representatives get very sensitive to the feelings of the people.
But I’ve seen the news photos of “Representatives of Group Whomever handing in petition with so many thousands of signatures to government buildings” and it just struck me as a waste of time and effort – good intentions, but it won’t do anything.
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@iMonk: “If we had a prize, you would win”
Well, I’ve often thought that you were reading _my_ mind when you wrote most of your essays. Glad to know the ESP works in the other direction. 🙂
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It’s very silly. I won’t be doing it, just like I refuse to buy a “pink” anything – be it Tomato Soup, Yogurt, or a T-shirt. Just much ado about nothing, and, yes, it’s a very public and “nose in the air” look what I’ve done kind of thing. It reminds me of those obnoxious “religious” e-mails I get forwarded to me about Christian rights, prayer in schools, or whatever the sappy message of the day is. I just don’t get it. I guess I’m a cynic or something. End of rant.
C. Hays
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k Bryan:
If we had a prize, you would win:
1)It does nothing
2)It makes millions feel they’ve done something
3)The combined expenses and energy could help hundreds, even thousands of people. (Dig a well. Send a Dr. somewhere. Build a clinic.)
4)Evangelicals no longer believe that it is valuable to do something that only GOD and a few affected people see. No…it has to have media coverage to be worthwhile.
5)Jesus wouldn’t do it. He’d save a child.
6) John the Baptist wouldn’t do it. He’d preach in the street.
7) Mary wouldn’t do it. She’d say I’ll raise a child.
8) It’s typical of evangelicals now: shallow and silly in every department.
9) It’s a rerun of that O’Hare/FCC bit that cost millions of dollars.
10) It insults the President, who is fully aware of his position.
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Another: In fairness, many Catholic churches that opposed the war also had crosses out front.
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I can say why it bother me:
1) It will have no effect whatsoever.
2) It will make participants feel like they’ve “done something” about the abortion problem, when they’ve done nothing whatsoever.
I wonder what a crisis pregnancy center could do with all the money that will be wasted on stamps and envelopes. 😦
The problem of abortion will not be solved by attempting to cut off the supply of the service, any more than alcohol prohibition solved the problems related to alcohol, or drug prohibition has stopped the use of drugs, or making prostitution illegal has stopped the sex trade. In all of the above cases the problem can only be solved by eliminating the DEMAND for the product or service. The only way to eliminate demand is for people’s hearts to change. The only way for people’s hearts to change is for them to hear and accept the Gospel.
Christians are NOT called to engage in a culture war. We are called to share the Good News with all people and make disciples of Christ. We can’t impose Christian behavior from the top down against people’s wills. Christian behavior can only come from the bottom up, from individual hearts and lives changed by the power of the Gospel. Time spent engaging in culture war is time lost in sharing that Gospel with people who desperately need it. These red envelopes are ineffectual arrows in a futile culture war.
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Isn’t it kind of like the churches with the rows of white crosses out front for the pro life cause, yet they strongly supported a war that took over 100,000 Iraqi lives, many of whom were children? Where was the outrage there?
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This is all just a scam to sell all the leftover red envelopes from Valentine’s Day.
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hmm .. well to me it just seems silly, what I personally call “Christian cringe” stuff. It’s a knee jerk reaction that doesn’t begin to address the things that people who are pro-abortion actually see as issues.
I’m hesitant to say too much, because I don’t entirely understand the US civic system, but certainly over here, and I say this as someone who finds the thought of killing an unborn child horrific, if someone were to b4ring in a law tomorrow banning all abortions, it would be a bad law. Why do I say that? (before someone shoots me). A bad law is a law which is against the will of the people, and which no one will obey. Abortions aren’t happening in such dreadful numbers just because some legislation has permitted it, they’re happening because people want them, because there’s no longer a terrible stigma attached (except in Christian circles) and everyone knows that it is amuch “safer” procedure than it was in grandma’s day. So it’s not going to go away (anymore than, I understand, Prohibition got rid of drinking).
The energy of Christians would be much better spent in finding ways to make ordinary women not want or need abortions. To be honest, the way I’ve heard some people speak about Obama, you’d think he was personally out there on the streets, coercing pregnant women to get rid of their babies!
Now I’d better duck real fast ..
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Imonk,
No I totally agree with your response. I was thinking of raising awareness in a more general society way. Maybe somebody will notice the media coverage and pause to think about it.
That sort of thing.
Basically, and I know you agree that abortion is horrible, the thought of what abortion is and that it actually happens and that Michael the Poet is probably right all make me physically ill if I dwell on it too much.
Regards,
Austin
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It bothers me because many pro-lifers may not realize or are willfully ignorant of the fact that they are in the minority. Many Christians, professing Christians who sit next to you in church, silently support abortion. Why?
1. They do not believe an embryo is a living soul.
2. They perversely believe that killing a child who goes to heaven, sinless, is better than bringing an unwanted child into the world who may reject Christ and go to hell.
3. They support what they perceive to be majority opinion. In other words, they do not believe they should “shove their beliefs down others’ throats.” So they support silently pro-life candidates, pro-choice candidates, or no candidate at all by refusing to vote.
4. They do not want the option taken away in case, God forbid, their mother, sister, daughter, wife, or girlfriend “needs” an abortion.
I have a friend who is politically active and very pro-life. I have had to repeatedly bring him down to earth about the reality of our times. He wants preachers in the pulpits denouncing abortion so the congregations will rise up and force our elected officials to ban abortions. I tell him most of the preachers, if they followed his advice, would be fired in a short time, either by the churches’ steering committees, by boards of trustees, or by direct vote of their congregations. My friend, I tell him, would still be vocally aghast at how the pulpits are silent about abortion.
Brother, that’s how the majority of Christians like it.
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So let me get this straight: The way for the church to accomplish the mission of God in the world (are you ready?) is to browbeat a single politician until he is so annoyed that he publicly relents of his position on abortion. If we can JUST DO THIS ONE THING all our problems will be over, and the Kingdom Age will arrive as families are magically strengthened, the fabric of society is mended, and God will be able to bless His Chosen Nation once again. “Oh no! If I get just one more of these red envelopes I’ll… I’ll… I’ll reform this nation into the God-fearing example to the world that it has always been! I’ll create a cabinet-level “Family Czar” who can restore our grand society! These truckloads of red envelopes that I NEVER SEE BECAUSE I HAVE BETTER THINGS TO DO THAN OPEN MAIL I AM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES do not annoy me at all, but rather convince me of the validity of your position.”
Sorry. I’m done now.
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Austin,
Totally without snark here:
Do you believe there are people in the White House that don’t know what abortion is, or that it’s common, or that millions of Americans oppose it? Or that the recommended line on the envelope isn’t the same rhetoric these people have heard thousands of times?
peace
ms
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I’ll be the lone voice of dissent here.
Yes it is probably useless, and yes many will feel that by doing this they have done their part and yes living the gospel is a much better course of action.
But…
It may raise awareness at some level.
It doesn’t bother me.
Austin
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This looks like a snail mail realization of the same kind of spam chains I was urged to keep going regarding the FCC and the banning of religious broadcasting. That has never materialized in the last decade or more yet because of a federal probe into the possibility of fraud in some televangelist ministries the rumor got revived.
Sending a bunch of junk mail to the President is as useless as forwarding spam chains as though it would persuade the FCC to not ban stuff they aren’t really banning.
On the other hand, perhaps I’m too jaded here but we live in an age in which accusations of deceit and money-grubbing are common enough I anticipate at least the possibility in April of a spam talking about how the paper for the envelopes was bought from some company owned by liberals and that the liberals who will complain about the envelope drive will be more concerned about the trees cut down to make the envelopes than about the babies represented by the envelopes. It won’t matter where the paper actually come from, the spam will have accomplished its purpose.
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Ahh, common! It’s a bargen $14.25 for a pack of 8 red envelopes. And a bumper sticker for $4.05. I’m Canadian so I don’t think Barack needs to hear from me… but I should buy some of these products just to support the good cause.
Amos 5:21-24 (The Message)
“I can’t stand your religious meetings.
I’m fed up with your conferences and conventions.
I want nothing to do with your religion projects,
your pretentious slogans and goals.
I’m sick of your fund-raising schemes,
your public relations and image making.
I’ve had all I can take of your noisy ego-music.
When was the last time you sang to me?
Do you know what I want?
I want justice—oceans of it.
I want fairness—rivers of it.
That’s what I want. That’s all I want.
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It’s another one of those “symbolic gestures” that cost nothing and mean even less, which is why they ultimately fail to make their point.
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Does it have anything to do with WWJD wrist bracelets and things like that?
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I wonder who is turning the profits from the “Purchase Red Envelope Products” links at the bottom of the linked page.
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Second hint:
Madelyn Murray O’Hare and the FCC Scare. (Do your research: What did all of that cost?)
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I agree and find it obnoxious – a serious waste of paper IMO. I am looking forward to hearing an elaboration on your last post, iMonk. Cheers!
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I’m going to send in a blue envelope just to mix things up…
Seriously, it’s so sad that people equate mailing a freakin’ envelope with “taking a stand” or “expressing disapproval” or whatever else gibberish they can think of. It’s all just words. That’s pretty much all a lot of Evangelicalism has nowadays – meaningless words.
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Here’s a hint: This is a perfect representation of where evangelical Christians are in about every area I can think of: theologically, missiologically, ecclesiastically, culturally, politically. It’s perfect.
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I have no idea why it bothers you. I can tell you why it bothers me.
It bothers me because it’s completely useless. The people who actually have the power to change the laws about Abortion won’t because of letters and envelopes, and Obama can’t because it’s not actually in his job description, and he doesn’t have that kind of power.
It also bothers me because I think too many people will do this and think “I’ve done my part.” The Christian Way of ending abortion is living the Gospel through sacrificial acts that will reduce the “need” for abortion until we can practically eliminate it. It’s not by sending envelopes that don’t do any good.
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