One of the first big splashes this blog made was when this post (2002!) made it into the atheist blogosphere. I got about a hundred notes from atheists saying “Thanks.” I’ve always agreed with what I wrote here, and I’ve always felt it was important. I also know that many culture-warring Christians will say this is a surrender document and I should join in the hatred of those who sometimes hate us. Check with Jesus on that one.
Here’s “Why Do They Hate Us?” from this blog, 2002 version.
I don’t really know why someone thought it was necessary to do a poll to see just who were the most disliked groups in society, but the results are in. While serial killers and IRS agents still come in last, hot on their heels are evangelical Christians. Not Christians in general. Not Roman Catholics. Not all Christians, but evangelical Christians.
If you’re like me, you have three reactions to this news. First, you tend to blame the media. Almost every portrayal of an evangelical Christian on television or in movies makes us look like the worst version of every stereotype we fear. Of course, one cannot expect the mainstream media to take up the cause of rescuing the evangelical public image, and these days virtually every group has a list of complaints with various kinds of media portrayals. There is more to the public perception of Bible believers than a media vendetta.
The second reaction is what we tend to say to one another to reassure ourselves that we are really OK after all. “It’s the Gospel,” we say to one another. Evangelicals are identified with a message that no one wants to hear, and so they are disliked. If you don’t believe it, watch what happens when an evangelical leader appears on a talk show. It’s like raw meat to hungry lions, no matter if the evangelical in question is rude or wonderful. (I have seen some of the nicest evangelicals torn limb from limb in these settings including liberals who gave away the store.)
I would never argue with the basic premise of this observation. I have seen its truth too many times. They crucified Jesus. Enough said. But as true as this is, it is too simplistic to explain the increasing level of general despising of evangelicals in our society. It explains one thing, but it does not explain many other things. It actually may tend to blind us to our own behaviors. Like the residents of Jerusalem who were convinced their city could not fall because the temple was there, evangelicals may explain this dislike as reaction to the Gospel and then be blind to those things- in addition to the Gospel- that create legitimate animosity.
The third reaction is the guilty knowledge that evangelicals really are, very often, easy to dislike for many obvious reasons. Many evangelicals know exactly what the survey is registering, because they feel the same way themselves. We’ve all observed, in others and in ourselves, distinctively evangelical vices, hypocrisies and failures. We hoped that our good points would make up for these problems, but that was another self-deception.
It is easy to say that people’s dislike of Christians is the dislike of the Christian message, but that simply doesn’t hold up in the real world. It may be true of the Christian you don’t know, but the Christians you do know have it in their power to either make it easy or difficult for you to dislike them. For example, the Christian in your car pool may believe what others refuse to believe, but his life provides a powerful antidote to any prejudice against him. Thousands of missionaries have been opposed for simply being Christians. But hundreds of thousands have lived lives that adorned the Gospel with attractive, winsome and loving behavior. A past president of our school was revered by Muslims during and after 6 years of Peace Corps service in Iran, years where he talked about the Gospel to Muslims every day and saw many trust Christ. The fact that the Gospel has penetrated into many hostile environments is evidence of the power of the Holy Spirit, but it is also evidence that one way the Spirit works is by making Christians a display of the fruits of love, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control.
We are loathed, caricatured, avoided and disliked because we often deserve it. There, I said it and I’m glad I did.
Here’s my list of why evangelicals are among the most disliked persons in America.
1. Christians endorse a high standard of conduct for others, and then largely excuse themselves from a serious pursuit of such a life. Jesus is the most admired person in history, but evangelicals are far more likely to devise ways for Jesus to be like us than for us to be like Jesus.
If it hasn’t struck you lately that you do the very thing you condemn others for doing, (Romans 2:1) urge others to do what you don’t do or excuse in yourself what you require in others, then you probably don’t get this article at all.
Did it irritate you when your dad said “Do as I say, not as I do.”? Then you get the picture.
2. Evangelical Christian piety in America is mostly public. Whether it’s our entertainment-saturated “worship” services, our celebrity cults or our mad obsession with worldly success, we love for others to see what “God is doing in our lives.” Of course, Jesus had plenty to say about this, and the essence of it is that when your piety is public, then there is almost certainly a lack of serious, life-transforming, private obedience and discipleship.
I have lately been strongly convicted by J.C. Ryle’s little book, “A Call To Prayer.” Ryle makes a devastating case for the obvious absence of the discipline of private prayer among Christians. What would Ryle say today? Does our public manner grow out of a true inward experience of private prayer? You see what I am talking about. If its public, we do it well. If it’s private discipleship, we probably don’t do it at all.
3. Many evangelicals relate to others with an obvious- or thinly disguised- hidden agenda. In other words, those who work with us or go to school with is feel that we are always “up to” something. You mean, they know we want to convert them? Apparently. Ever been yelled at for saying “I’ll pray for you.”? Maybe there was a reason.
You know that feeling you get when a telemarketer interrupts your dinner? I get that feeling sometime when my Pentecostal/Charismatic friends are trying to persuade me into their camp. It’s not that I don’t know they are good, decent, law abiding people who like me. I just want them to quit treating me as a target or a project and start treating me as a person who is free to be myself AND different from them.
This same feeling is prevalent among those who dislike evangelical Christians. They are annoyed and sometimes angered that we are following some divine directive to get them to abandon their life choices and take up ours. They want to be loved as they are, not for what they might become if our plan succeeds.
Evangelicals have done a lot of good work on how to present the Gospel, but much of that work has operated on initial premises that are irritating and offensive. I have taken my share of evangelism courses, and there is a great blind spot on how to be an evangelist without being annoying and pushy. We somehow think that the Holy Spirit takes care of that aspect of evangelism! Thank God for men like Francis Schaefer and Jerome Barrs who have done much to model evangelism that majors of maintaining the utmost respect towards those we evangelize.
4. We seem consumed with establishing that we are somehow “better” than other people, when the opposite is very often true. Many evangelicals are bizarrely shallow and legalistic about minute matters. We are frequently psychologically unsound, psychiatrically medicated, filled with bitterness and anger, tormented by conflicts and, frankly, unpleasant to have around.
I have an atheistic acquaintance who never misses an opportunity to post a news story about a morally compromised minister. Is he just being mean? No; he is pointing out the obvious mess that is the inner life and outward behavior of many evangelicals, truths we like to avoid or explain as “attacks of the enemy.” Our families are broken, our marriages fail and our children are remarkably worldly and messed up. Yet, we boldly tell the world that we have the answer for all their ills! How many churches proclaim that a sojourn with them will fix that marriage and those kids? Do we really have the abundant life down at the church, ready to be dispensed in a five week class?
We are not as healthy and happy as we portray ourselves. The realities of broken marriages among the Christian celebrity set underlines the inability of evangelicals to face up to their own brokenness. Was there some reason that Sandi Patti and Amy Grant were supposed to be immune from failed marriages? Why did their divorces make them pariahs in evangelicalism? The fact is that most evangelicals are in deep denial about what depravity and sinfulness really means. The world may have similar denial problems, but I don’t think they can approach us for the spiritual veneer. The crowd at the local tavern may have issues, but they frequently beat Christians by miles in the realistic humanity department. Maybe they should pity us, but the fact is that, as the situation becomes more obvious, they don’t like us.
5. We talk about God in ways that are too familiar and make people uncomfortable. Evangelicals constantly talk about a “personal relationship ” with God. Many evangelicals talk as if God is talking to them and leading them by the hand through life in a way only the initiated can understand. Christian testimonies may give a God-honoring window into the realities of Christian experience, or it may sound like a psychological ploy to promote self importance.
Evangelicals have yet to come to grips with their tendency to make God into a commodity. The world is far more savvy about how God is “used” to achieve personal or group ends than most evangelicals admit. Evangelicals may deny that they have made God into a political, financial or cultural commodity, but the world knows better. How does an unbeliever hear the use of Jesus to endorse automobiles, political positions or products?
In my ministry, I have observed how difficult it is to evangelize Buddhists. One of the reasons is that the Buddhist assumes that if you are serious about your religious experience, you will become a monk! When he sees American Christians talking about a relationship with God, yet does not see a corresponding impact upon the whole of life, he assumes that this religion is simply an expression of culture or group values. Now we may critique such a response as not understanding certain basic facts about the Gospel, but we also have to acknowledge the truth observed! Rather than being people who are deeply changed, we are people who tend to use God to change others or our world to suit ourselves.
6. Evangelicals are too slow to separate themselves from what is wrong. Because ours is a moral religion, and we frequently advertise our certainty in moral matters, it seems bizarrely hypocritical when that moral sense is applied so inconsistently.
I note that my evangelical friends are particularly resistant to this matter, but the current Trent Lott affair makes the point plainly. Lott says that he now repudiates any allegiance to segregation or the symbols of segregation. Suddenly, he sees the good sense in a number of things he has opposed. But bizarrely, Lott stands behind his evangelical Christianity as the explanation for his sudden conversion.
Watching this spectacle, there are many reactions, but what interests me is how Lott’s Christianity only seems to apply now that he is being dangled over political hell. Where was all this moral sense in the 1960’s? Where was it ten years ago? Why does it appear that Lott is using his religion at his convenience? It’s not my place to judge what is going on between Lott and his God, but his apparent pragmatism in these matters is familiar to many people observing evangelicals on a daily basis.
Most evangelicals are not the moral cutting edge of contemporary social issues. Despite the evangelical conscience on issues like abortion, it is clear to many that we no longer have the cutting edge moral sense of a Martin Luther King, Jr. or a William Wilberforce. Evangelicals are largely annoyed at people who tell them to do the right thing if it doesn’t enhance their resume, their wallet, their family or their emotions.
What is odd about this is that many of those who dislike evangelicals have the idea that we want to impose our morality upon an entire culture. Fear-mongering liberals often talk about the Bush administration as populated by fundamentalist Christian Taliban poised to bring about a Christian theocracy. I wonder if they have noticed that President Bush- an evangelical right down to his boots- is practicing religious tolerance over the loud objections of evangelical leaders like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell?
7. We take ourselves far too seriously, and come off as opposed to normal life. Is it such a bid deal that Christians are offended at so many things others consider funny? I’ll admit, it is a small thing, but it is one of the reasons ordinary people don’t like us.
I read an incident written by a preacher to an internet list I monitor. He told about taking his youth group on an outing, when the students began singing a popular country song about a guy who leaves his wife to pursue his fishing hobby. It’s a hilarious song. But this fellow’s reaction was predictable. He asked them to not a song about a marriage that breaks up, and to instead sing something that honored God. I routinely hear students ridiculing a fellow teacher who labels much of what students find funny as “of the devil.”
These incidents show something that evangelicals need to admit. We are frequently unable to see humor, absurdity, and the honest reasons for humans to laugh at themselves. What very normal, very healthy people find laughable, we find threatening and often label with the ridiculous label of “the devil.”
The message here isn’t just that we are humorless or Puritanical. The message is that being human or being real is somehow evil. This is one place I can feel exactly what the unbelievers are talking about. When I see Christians trying to rob young people of the right to be normal, ordinary and human, it angers me. I feel threatened. It’s hard to like people who seem to say that God, Jesus and Scripture are the enemies of laughter, sex, growing up and ordinary pleasures. Some Christians sometimes seem to say that everything pleasurable is demonic or to be avoided to show what a good Christian you are. Isn’t it odd that unbelievers are so much more aware of the plain teaching of scripture than we are?
I am sure there is much more to say, but I have ridden this horse far enough. Certainly, unregenerate persons are at enmity with God by nature. And, without a doubt, Christians represent a message that is far from welcome. Christians doing the right thing risk being labeled enemies of society. Much persecution is cruel and evil. But that’s not the point. Christians are disliked for many reasons that have nothing to do with the Gospel, and everything to do with the kind of people we are in the relationships God has given us. The message of salvation won’t earn a standing ovation, but people who believe that message are not given a pass to rejoice when all men hate you…for any reason, including reasons that are totally our own fault.
No doubt someone will write me and say that, to the extent people like us, we have denied the Gospel. Therefore, being despised and hated is proof that you are on the right track. And there is a certain amount of truth to that observation in some situations that Christians may find themselves in. But that is an explanation for how we are treated, not directions on how to make sure we are rejected and hated by most people for reasons having nothing to do with the message of the cross. I hate to say it, but I’ve learned that when a preacher tells me he was fired from his church for “taking a stand for God,” it usually means he was just a jerk.
The scriptures tell us that the early Christians were both persecuted and thought well of for their good lives and good works. What was possible then is still possible now. I’ve seen it and I hope I see more of it…in my life.
(COMMENTERS: You can discuss the article. We won’t be debating atheism vs Christianity, nor will I allow either team to generally accuse the other of atrocity. Heavy moderation ahead.)
The Internet Monk Archives 
You have all made good points. I must reveal that i am a Roman Catholic. The evangelism as sales pitch is a problem. But an even bigger one is the vagueness of much “nondimensional” – oops “nondenominational” Evangelicalism.
So much of its beliefs are borrowed capital from Rome, Geneva, or Wittenberg. Evangelicals have realy, really dumbed down a lot. Check out http://www.whitehorseinn.com for critiques of American Christianity from a classical Reformation perspective. I do admire some Protestant theology – even if only as a worthy sparring partner. However I lean more toward the Stott/Packer end of Evangelicalism in my tastes. Reformed Anglicanism is still in the same ballpark. A lot of non-denominational theology is really Dispensationalism and can sound weird.
Moreover everything seems to depend on the preacher. The cult of personality distorts the message.
Of course the Catholic Church in America has its own problems.
Perhaps a dose of real persecution is what the church needs. It may be that the Lord is pruning us.
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Memphis Aggie,
Let me challenge you.
“However there are authentic examples of anti Christian hatred directed at the innocent. In the US it rarely amounts to much more than an insult or social snub; being passed over for a promotion might be the worst effect.”
This is entirely possible, just as it is possible for anyone belonging to any number of groups, religious and otherwise. Let’s see if it applies especially to Christians.
Here are my challenges, to Memphis or any other who thinks that Christians are a significantly persecuted group in the United States:
1. Without the aid of Google or any Internet search tool, name five presidents in U.S. history who were openly non-Christian.
2. Without the aid of Google or any Internet search tool, name five contemporary American politicians who openly admit to not being Christian.
3. Without the aid of Google or any Internet search tool, name 10 politicians in history or contemporary politics who are/were obviously not Christian, whether they admit(ted) it or not.
How’d you do? Could you successfully complete the first two challenges? The third one was easy, of course.
There is some truth to what you say, but if being a Christian in the United States is the anathema many paint it to be, why is it so convenient to be one in politics–the ultimate in popularity contests, as it were?
Admit it: Christians are arguably the LEAST PERSECUTED religious category (even if you include agnostics and atheists) in the United States today.
Yes, being persecuted for being a Christian–and, more importantly, perceiving this as a good thing–is a very prevalent theme, as are many themes taken from the Bible.
Makes me wonder, are American Christians taking the Biblical golden rule to its ultimate conclusion when they decide to persecute and look down upon the practitioners of other religions? You want to be hated and persecuted, therefore you should hate and persecute others?
I’m kidding, of course. But can you see the warning suggested by my ridiculous example?
Be very, very careful about using the Bible to defend *any* kind of anti-social behavior, especially those that differ markedly from Jesus’s. I’m pointing the finger mostly at positions of hatred that are consistently defended by Biblical passages, but I also point the finger at Christians who deliberately antagonize others as I described above.
I’ll repeat myself, just because I think this is the most important thing I have typed on this page. A bit of common sense, this:
Generally speaking, if you are a good Christian, and follow Jesus’s example, people will NOT look at you with disgust. People will NOT run away from you in horror. And, I’m sorry to disappoint some of you, but people will NOT hate you for your religion.
History and notable exceptions aside, this idea that Christians are hated and persecuted in the contemporary United States is mostly a myth, and, even worse, a self-serving myth. It’s used as an excuse for a number of varieties of anti-social behavior. Can you imagine Jesus ever using God’s authority (i.e., the Bible) to serve his own ego in this way?
That’s not the Jesus I know.
-Moon
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Memphis Aggie,
You wrote: However there are authentic examples of anti Christian hatred directed at the innocent. In the US it rarely amounts to much more than an insult or social snub; being passed over for a promotion might be the worst effect. By contrast, in many other countries being Christian is a dangerous life threatening pursuit.
You are correct about other countries. Being Christian in some countries can bring you death.
But about 170 years ago this was the case for 1 religious group: The LDS (Mormons).
On October 27, 1838 Missouri Governor Lilburn W. Boggs signed a military order directing that the Mormons (LDS) be driven from the state or exterminated. This was not repealed until June 25, 1976 by Governor Christopher S. Bond.
You can find more information at:
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Extermination_Order
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Moon,
You make a good point that there can be an us vs them mentality and, honestly, the hostility to Christians is deserved whenever Christians behave like jerks. We are flawed messengers and get caught up our own prejudices and desires and too frequently let that distort the message.
However there are authentic examples of anti Christian hatred directed at the innocent. In the US it rarely amounts to much more than an insult or social snub; being passed over for a promotion might be the worst effect. By contrast, in many other countries being Christian is a dangerous life threatening pursuit.
Finally the suffering for belief theme is authentically and intrinsically Christian, not merely an assumption. It can certainly get self-righteous and ring false, but it is a major part of Christian dogma. Recall Christ himself was ridiculed, tortured publicly and executed. Why did that happen, since he certainly was loving and generous, healing and feeding the sick and the poor? He was killed because he was a threat, a threat to the worldly powers of the age. Can you seriously argue that no worldly power in our time perceives Christianity as a threat? Take China for example or the Sudan or Saudi Arabia or Iran or even regions of India.
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Right on the mark with this article.
I am a believer, but have come to despise the phrase “christian” as much as fundamentalist is spurned by modern society. Jesus was not a christian. He was jewish, but not a Jew (in the practising religion sense).
Love God, and love the dirty little man down the road. The rest is just hypocrisy.
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“You may not realize that we Christians actually expect to sound ridiculous to unbelievers and are even warned of it in the Bible. But we who believe accept that ridicule as necessary. Saint Paul even welcomed it as the meritorious suffering that would yield a heavenly reward. Of course Christianity is either true or madness. It can not be a halfway belief.”
Thank you, Memphis. I’m going to have to respectfully disagree, and in a way that applies especially to evangelicals who wish for non-Christians to become Christians.
This us-vs-them mentality is rampant among followers of Abrahamic religions, comparatively speaking, and it is utterly unnecessary. If you really want to follow Jesus’s example, you are going to have to let it go.
There are many posters on this page who, much more than you just did, cling to their assumptions that there is something good and honorable about being despised for their choice of religion. Indeed, one could almost say that they go out of their way to encourage others to despise them for their beliefs. Is this not the point of this page’s article?
If you are a good Christian, and follow Jesus’s example, people will NOT look at you with disgust. People will NOT run away from you in horror. And, I’m sorry to disappoint some of you, but people will NOT hate you for your religion.
On the contrary, people will love you, which is exactly to be expected, because you are a wonderful person. A Jesus-like person. And they will ask how you managed to become such a wonderful person. What better opening could there be for explaining Christianity? What more respectful method could there be for pursuing an openly, honestly proselytistic agenda?
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Matt
I went back to look at the comments in question (which I admit I didn’t look at before) and you’re right there are rhetorical excesses certainly.
I was once and atheist/agnostic and I have great sympathy for the honest pursuit of the truth. I understand why as a scientist one might not seriously explore faith, which is inherently outside the empirical and therefore appears alien. That was my point.
I believe that to be a mistake and a loss , but certainly an understandable one. We Christians must recall that our faith is a great gift, given as an answered prayer. The value of faith is from God not ourselves and pride in it is misplaced and such pride interferes with the message of hope.
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Memphis Aggie
You seem to have partially missed the point. At the risk of being presumptuous, I would suggest that, in your reply above, you scratch out “ridiculous” and replace it with “mind-bendingly, hideously, repulsively arrogant” (this is referring to Mike Bull’s post, of course). Then you will be on the right track.
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Hi Moon,
You may not realize that we Christians actually expect to sound ridiculous to unbelievers and are even warned of it in the Bible. But we who believe accept that ridicule as necessary. Saint Paul even welcomed it as the meritorious suffering that would yield a heavenly reward. Of course Christianity is either true or madness. It can not be a halfway belief.
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Mike Bull,
You claim a “right” to your own unbelief in my god, the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But your unbelief is deluded, whatever faults you find in my religion. You are living under His dominion, whether you are willing to acknowledge it or not. And the morality you claim as a Christian really is stolen from the FSM.
You are an unbeliever, unwilling to submit to the almighty Pasta. Until you submit to the Lordly Linguini, you are like the meatball that is here today and eaten tomorrow. You and other unbelievers need to remember that everything good you enjoy comes from my worldview.
…
Do I sound ridiculous? I certainly hope I do. Go back and re-read your own post. I used mostly your exact words, and this is precisely how you sound to any non-Christian, as well as to many of the more observant Christians.
I am grateful that the Christian friends I am surrounded by have learned the value of respect, Christians whose love for others is not tainted by proud contempt and disdain. It is truly difficult simultaneously to love others and look down upon them, don’t you think? Look into your heart, and see if this is not so.
Compassion and unselfish love can be difficult to develop, but step by step, little by little, every one of us has a fantastic capacity for it. Whether it comes from Jesus or not, it needs to be practiced, and practiced a lot.
I apologize if my rebuke seemed too harsh, and wish you luck in your own growth.
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To Matt:
Thanks for your comment. You helped me
rein in my temper. I have to say again, thank you.
I have to remind myself over and over, “He really does
believe what he’s saying, and it makes sense to him.”
I will try to take that away from this interaction, as well.
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“Don: I agree with you, but I have a feeling that Jesus would have erred on the side of helping people and not restricting anyone’s legal rights. He may have tried to convince people to lead a certain life, but he would have never legislated it.”
This is pretty much what I think is in the minds of critics. If Christians are onto such a good thing, if a personal surrender in faith is so clearly a salvation, why do they do wish to shape the force of law to suit? Why so fearful? Why so full of the language of war? “Victory will be ours. Fight harder!” “Your ability to resist is an illusion, and resistance is futile.” “You are on OUR territory. Submit or be punished.” Is one religious militancy really less vicious than radical jihad simply on account of a few hundred years of evolving a smoother public relations approach?
It is Christians who have declared the battlegrounds, who have declared the battle. Who have declared that Christianity cannot flourish merely through living up to Christ. Who loudly condemn the “secular” while pursuing a goal of secular dominion. The lack of actual faith is abundantly evident, even to small children. (Especially to small children, the most perceptive of all.) People seeking a spiritual way aren’t spoiling for a fight. And they take one look at the manifestation of this way and keep looking.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if the followers of every faith, philosophy, and theory of living determined to see just which could demonstrate the highest merit of their way through joy, fearless simple faith, charity, and loving care of their fellows? Or is that really being done right now, except that few of them find enough in their faith to do much of it?
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Thank you very much, Mike Bull. After a days-long, pointed but civil discussion, you have reminded everyone here “why they hate us.”
Bravo!
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iMonk: bang on. Non-evangelicals (especially non-Christians) frequently don’t like evangelicals because they are frequently so un-Christlike that we could cry.
Chris: I admit it’s been about 10 years since I read the gospels, but your religious education is projecting its own dislikes onto Jesus. My memory says that Christ’s behaviour showed nothing but compassion and brotherhood for the tax collectors, prostitutes, beggars, and other such that he sought out. Compare with how his behaviour showed clear disapproval for those who thought that society’s norms and Biblical rules were more important than kindness.
When Christians act as compassionately as Christ despite all the rules and ridicule that could stand in their way, and with as little judgement, that’s when they get respect for following their beliefs.
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Wow. Great interaction. Full marks for the time you have spent moderating it.
As a Christian, my own hypocrisy and lack of love break my heart, but I am dealing with them. As Christians, we need to remember that dominion only comes through sacrificial service. That goes right back to Eden.
But the unbelievers need to remember that everything good they enjoy comes from our Christian worldview. The morality the atheists claim is ‘reasonable’ is stolen capital. They are living on our land, whether they like it or not. Unless they repent, they are squatters complaining about the room service. They are like the grass that is here today and incinerated tomorrow.
Dominion of the world by Christianity is only a matter of time. How long it takes depends upon our love and service, not votes. When the church fails to witness faithfully (Adam, Mordecai, Jews), her rule will be usurped for a time (Satan, Haman, Herod). Nothing’s changed. But the bad guys always get thrown down eventually in a victory for Christ.
We must not forget that although the gospel is not the gospel without a presentation in love, it is still an ultimatum. Those who claim a “right” to their unbelief are deluded, whatever faults they find in the church.
To those who have been hurt by Christians, judgment begins at the house of God. He will deal with His people FIRST, as He always has (just read the Bible!), but then, make no mistake, He will deal with YOU. When He does, I sincerely hope you are in Christ, or that His perfect justice brings you to Him.
Like Mordecai, we have forgotten what our weapons are. Prayer, love and sacrifice bring the powers that be tumbling down. So do apologies for the times we have wronged others. When Christians repent, the world follows. And when we are faithful in the use of these weapons, God sets His opponents upon each other. That’s the pattern. There will be ups and downs over the centuries, but we can’t lose.
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iMonk, can you make my last post show that the linked page is entitled “‘Imposing our beliefs’ On Others.”
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To Andy D:
Prop 8 is one thing, but I hope we never stop picketing abortion death camps. Let’s face it, abortion IS state sanctioned homicide. That’s a SCIENTIFIC FACT. Anyone who believes otherwise is being intellectually dishonest. This doesn’t require any belief in God to understand SCIENTIFIC knowledge.
http://www.ncbcenter.org/FrTad_MSOOB_3.asp
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phil_style
“With respect to your ‘eyesore’ crossess. I’d be challenging the local government that granted planning permission. Landscape/visual imapcts.
I’m not sure what environemtal/town planning is like in the US, but the argument against that kind of development here in the UK wold be very strong ;)”
I’ve seen this at times on other message boards. The US and Europe are so totally different in areas like this that we at times find it hard to comprehend the discussion, much less the details.
Zoning is local in the US. VERY LOCAL.
Until recently in Houston, TX a property owner could mostly do anything they wanted as long as it didn’t physically impact other property, was structurally sound, and didn’t violate FAA height restrictions. So a homeowner in an upscale suburb could open up an auto wreaking yard if he wanted. In the not too distant past they’ve put up a few rules but compared to most of the US it’s still seems as if anarchy rules. On the other hand the town next door to me, Cary, NC, is well know for there incredibly tight zoning and proud of it. When the first Blockbuster store was built in the town, the town went ballistic when it opened up with their trademark lighted canopy. Blockbuster had to turn off the lights.
My point is over on this side of the pond we have a lot of issues where the locals are in charge and the federal government has no standing.
And some of this attitude rubs off in the way we “run” our religions. Sharp elbows and all that.
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I’m trying to figure out which makes me wince more: South Park or most church services.
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MS, I was tracking right along with you (and thanks to the many insightful commenters!) but I got a little bogged down in #7. Yes, I realize this isn’t the central point of the post, but….
While I generally agree that many in the evangelical community take themselves too seriously in a cultural sense, and spend too much energy and vitality trying to build walls to keep out “bad things”, it also seems to me that for any given cultural context there is some place where a guy who loves Jesus stops being able to enjoy himself anymore.
South Park is perhaps a good example – I’m an avid fan, but yet there is occasionally a scene that make me wince.
I still wrestle with exactly how this works out for me and my family (and I know this is a ‘wrestling’ kind of thing, and doesn’t have any big answers), but don’t you think at some point it’s appropriate for a Christian to be opposed to aspects of life that are considered “normal” but can’t possibly be God-honoring?
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Joe M: I see where that seems unfair, but it also seems to me that the titles “atheist” and “Christian” aren’t really comparable. The mistake is thinking that they are and then expecting a fair comparison. It kind of reminds me of the joke: Atheism is a religion the way not collecting stamps is a hobby. ‘Atheist’ may be a box that can be checked on a survey about religious affiliation, but it’s really more like a ‘none of the above’ option. I imagine that it would also be harder to determine whether a Christian who identified himself or herself with a particular denomination/church/movement was a hypocrite rather than a Christian who claimed to be a nondenominational follower of Jesus. The person who belongs to a denomination has a de facto affiliation with all of that denomination’s beliefs — both in doctrine and in politics — whereas the nondenominational individual’s stated beliefs aren’t so easy to identify. I guess (in my opinion) saying, “I’m a Christian” or “I’m a Lutheran” or “I’m a Baptist” implies that one holds certain beliefs, whereas the statement “I’m an atheist” (though it places a person somewhere on the religious-affiliation scale) doesn’t identify a person’s beliefs any better than the statement “I’m a dentist.” It simply doesn’t apply to the same topic. Generalizations about atheists based on the idea that they “don’t have a common moral ground with which to judge themselves or others,” necessarily ignores the fact that some atheists, as individuals, may be extremely ethical and uphold high personal standards. It is this failure to appreciate the individual, personal values of atheists that in turn makes it difficult it call an atheist a hypocrite.
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Pope Benedict XVI wrote in his first Encyclical Letter which is titled “God is Love” in English, which you can read in its entirety at:
http://www.vatican.va:80/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html :
” ‘God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him’ (1 Jn 4:16). These words from the First Letter of John express with remarkable clarity the heart of the Christian faith: the Christian image of God and the resulting image of mankind and its destiny. In the same verse, Saint John also offers a kind of summary of the Christian life: ‘We have come to know and to believe in the love God has for us’ “.
(This is me writing now…not the Pope!)
That makes it sound very simple, doesn’t it? Christians have come to know and believe in the love God has for us. That’s what we need to bring to the hurting world. If we don’t bring the world love, we bring it nothing. I know it is not as simple as all that, of course. Some will ask, “What does KNOW mean?” What does BELIEVE mean?” What does GOD mean?” “What does LOVE mean?” And then we are into the war of semantics again. Sigh…
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PERSONAL:
iMonk:
Chris: I’ve left up a few atheist comments that mildly wished we could moved from the planet. I deleted about 50 that included lines like “I want to poison all evangelicals and their children.” If you can’t read the rhetoric in this thread and others that sounds like overt, open threats of violence, then I can’t help you. See those trees? There’s a forest in there.
—
Was this aimed at me or a different Chris? If me, I don’t understand how this relates to what I said.
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Well sais. I think part of this problem is that most Christians have a faulty biblical view of God, themselves, and others. Reading the puritians is one way to shed a little light on the subject 🙂
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True, an atheist who believes in some ideology or non-religious cause can be a hypocrite for doing something against that cause. But in reality, I don’t see how an atheist can be accused of being a hypocrite for any action taken under the banner of atheism. How could you say “those atheists are such hypocrites” in any sense similar to saying “those Christians are hypocrites”? Atheists don’t have a common moral ground with which to judge themselves or others, except logic and reason and utilitarianism and even self-interest..
I think there is probably a hole in my argument.
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Don: I agree with you, but I have a feeling that Jesus would have erred on the side of helping people and not restricting anyone’s legal rights. He may have tried to convince people to lead a certain life, but he would have never legislated it.
I appreciate the considerate conversation between the “two” camps. The only way that we can better understand each other is through constructive arguments like these. I learn from you guys and I hope the gift is reciprocated. Much love to everyone that can keep their convictions with a level head. That’s what makes this country and this life so wonderful.
Monk: You are a true scholar, a searcher in a sea of sheep. Keep leading the masses to question their beliefs as that is the only path to true belief, solid faith and personal confirmation. I applaud your efforts and it is unfortunate that people feel threatened by the arguments you propose. I would probably go to church if I could interact with a true theologian like yourself.
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Robert C. wrote: “Much like the famous, “If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for our kids,†argument from a Texas school.”
I heard this attributed to Miriam “Ma” Ferguson, who was governor of Texas during the 1920’s and ’30’s, but apparently the quote is something of an urban legend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Miriam_Ferguson
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Also, please excuse my extremely poor spelling. I have a bad case of computer-screen-eye.
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Joe M wrote, “As I said above, it seems like atheists are not criticized as hypocrites, because they are incapable of hypocrisy.”
I would like to point out my disagreement with this statement. If a hypocrit is defined as someone whose private actions do not follow his or her publically espoused morals, values, beliefs and so forth, of course it’s possible for an atheist to be a hypocrit. An atheist (as well as a religious person) could, for instance, extoll the virtues of a environmentalism and then drive a gas-guzzling vehicle or claim to be a vegan and eat meat on the sly.
Atheism is the absence of religious belief, not necessarily the absence of values or ethics. The main difference in determining whether or a Christian or an atheist is a hypocrit is the fact that, once a person claims to be a Christian, that person is also claiming to espouse a certain set of values, whereas there is no standard set of values that can be attached to the label ‘atheist.’ It doesn’t mean that atheists by definition cannot be hypocrits, but it usually means that one needs to know more about them than their religious (non)affiliation to determine whether they are hypocrits or not.
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Both sides commit the same error, but it’s more grevious for Christians: They both hold an absolute truth claim with no HUMILITY.
I understand it with atheists. I don’t understand it with Christians.
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“Then why do most of us feel the need to obsessively judge each other instead of looking at ourselves and seeing how we can improve, thus making our relationships (including that of YOURS with YOUR savior) more reasonable and fulfilling?”
Agreed. But, part of this is about having any standards at all by which you hold yourself and others to. I think even Dawkins accepts the idea of moral standards for the benefit of society. However the problem lies with when the answer is “because.” As I said above, it seems like atheists are not criticized as hypocrites, because they are incapable of hypocrisy.
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From Andy,
Chris: Jesus was both Liberal and Progressive. He sought the people that needed him and gave without stipulations. How could you see Him or his teachings as Conservative?
—–
Hi Andy, If you don’t mind, I will attempt to address this.
Because today to be liberal and progressive is all too often to be militantly secular and anti-christian. The culture is vastly different than in his day.
I know we boomers co-opted Jesus-as-hippie, communist, and pacifist but it always was a bad fit. In truth, Jesus rigorously avoided politics and was quite successful in doing so. His life and death on the cross was about salvation, and whenever politics was thrust upon him, he simply shrugged it off. He moved easily among all strata of society rejecting no one, and participating in no grievance groups or class warfare.
This is the hard lesson that the collapse of the Moral Majority should have taught us: secular power corrupts the Christian mission. This does not mean Christians should not vote and have input into policy, (even input informed by their faith), but it does mean we should never think we can create a Christian utopia through gaining political power. That is a doomed mission if there ever was one.
If Jesus was here today, he would be neither progressive, nor liberal, nor conservative. He would transcend politics as he did back then. So should we.
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Chris: Jesus was both Liberal and Progressive. He sought the people that needed him and gave without stipulations. How could you see Him or his teachings as Conservative?
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As an atheist, I have to say that the honesty here is appreciated and respected. Being Christian does not make someone more or less than human. The belief that you are more than a person often leads o the consequence that you are a blind follower of anything, which makes you appear less human.
Regardless of belief, or lack thereof, we are all susceptible to the same struggles. It is how we react to this that makes us each individually responsible. Faith, or the absence of it, does not change who we are intristriclaly. It is not so difficult to respect each other as people, if we only try.
I see the point of the article as the lack of intellectual honesty among most of us. If we are truly honest with ourselves, and are willing to focus on our own strengths and shortcomings, we could live in a world that is better for all of us.
To quote the Bible:
Matthew 7:3-5 (New International Version)
3″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
Then why do most of us feel the need to obsessively judge each other instead of looking at ourselves and seeing how we can improve, thus making our relationships (including that of YOURS with YOUR savior) more reasonable and fulfilling?
If there is a logical answer, I would love to hear it.
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Powerful and prophetic, writing, Michael. I think another possible reason why they hate us may be the fact that many non-Christian and non-religious people react negatively to the “product” we are selling – that is, the supposed good news we are offering. Most Americans I suspect, young and old alike, really don’t believe that they will be tortured forever in hell after they die if they fail to believe the right things about event in the past. Most people (by their actions if not also their words) seem to simply trust (have faith) that WHATEVER happens on the other side of death is just fine with them. Thus, if what we evangelicals call “the Gospel” or “the promise of salvation” is perceived only, or even primarily, as fire insurance, it’s not a surprise that others see as irrelevant news what we call “Good News”. Consequently, I think many may resent us for being so arrogant in our otherworldly, supernatural claims. Personally, I believe that the future of evangelicalism is a passionate REALizing (naturalizing) of our faith, such as I discuss in my book, Thank God for Evolution, and, most recently, in a recent blog post on Christian Naturalism: http://thankgodforevolution.com/node/1716
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One other note I would add regarding criticism of Christians evangelizing. Many folks say they don’t like when it seems like salemanship or is done by someone with limited knowledge, etc… I don’t criticize any Christian who wants to share their faith. Being a Christian is sharing the Good News of Jesus Christ. If I am able and if they are teachable I would help them find better more effective ways to share the message. Our command is to sow seed. The seed is the Gospel. The soil does not tell the sower how, when, or where to sow seed. There is too little sowing, not too much. Life is so short. A Christian cannot and should not wait to share their faith with those around them.
There was a man condemned to death in England. The priest came to give him his last rites. The priest shared the message of forgiveness and eternal life through Jesus Christ, and that without trusting in Jesus payment for sin to satisfy God’s wrath against sin then he would be separated from God for all eternity. The man was skeptical because of the lack of passion he saw in the priest and in other Christians he had met and he said, “If I believed that I would crawl across England on broken glass to share that message.”
God is Holy. He must punish sin and rebellion because He is Just. He does not want to punish anyone, so He sent His son to take the punishment for us. He offers forgiveness, mercy, and eternal life with Him as a free gift. We only need to repent and believe. Blessings
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Preach It! I’m a ministers daughter of affiliation Church of the Brethren. I quit going to church over a year ago, for one thing – I’m embarrased and ashamed that I’ve heard my own pastor + 4 evangelical pastors cut down Catholics, other protestants, Baptists and of course Muslims FROM THE PULPIT!! What makes us think we ARE RIGHT OR BETTER than the others? We aren’t better than anyone else. Evangelicals truly believe they speak God’s mind – no you don’t. Nobody can truly knows who God is. He is beyond comprehension and concepts. In order for Christians and other faiths to accept each other we as God’s children have to go beyond the beliefs that we’ve been spoon fed since childhood, which is – We’re right – you’re wrong. So now I’m practicing Buddhism along with my Christian belief, while learning about Jews, Muslims, Catholics, etc. I want to have a better understanding of my brothers and sisters and accept them for who they are!
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Thank you for writing this.
I was raised Catholic, but eventually found that the teachings conflicted too strongly with my conscience as well as my reason. I became an agnostic.
I try to be a good person. I volunteer some time. I give to charities, buskers and beggars. I hold my temper, and shovel more than my share of snow. I believe in science, that gays deserve rights, and that tyranny is bad. I am kind and do my best to forgive people if they show remorse. And I don’t believe in any gods. I may burn in Hell for all this; I consider it my moral obligation to take that risk.
I want to thank you for broadening my perspective. It has taken a long time for me to learn the wisdom of the advice, “Read people who disagree with you.” One of the ways I can tell you are a good writer is because you made me laugh at a ridiculous statement, but then out of respect for you I considered it seriously.
I refer to “liberal fear-mongering” which gave me a fit of the giggles when I read it. I found the concept silly, but I forced myself to contrast it with “conservative fear-mongering”, which is *not* an oxymoron. I have to stretch my brain now. Thank you.
I felt much the same in recent months when I read in a conservative magazine that liberals wanted to “take our freedoms away,” which made me laugh hysterically. But I didn’t respect the writer, so I didn’t take the idea seriously until I read it in three different places. Another brain stretch.
But by far the funniest was when I first heard that evangelical Christians did not consider Catholics to be Christian. I laughed for fifteen minutes straight, holding my sides, tears streaming down my face, because following the stereotypes I had seen, I thought that the speaker was both so stupid and so ignorant of history that they didn’t actually know that Protestantism came from Catholicism. Much like the famous, “If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for our kids,” argument from a Texas school.
I have since learned that “Christian” is a word rendered meaningless (although everyone will argue with me over that) precisely *because* everyone is arguing over what the word means. If you tell me you are a Christian, or that you want me to “accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior,” I have absolutely no idea whether you are exhorting me to become a homophobe or a missionary or a kinder person or just join a weekly social club.
I made myself read through just about all the comments. Some of them were kind; some were well reasoned; some missed your point or each other’s points; some turned my stomach. But they gave me new views to consider, and that is of value.
Until now, I have not really added anything to the discussion.
I will add one reason evangelicals are disliked:
It is not always because the message is unwelcome.
It is not always because the person is a jerk.
In some cases, it is because evangelism itself, regardless of the religion being espoused, is considered morally wrong.
I consider prosetylizing morally wrong, especially when done in a predatory fashion. Some churches pressure insecure teenagers to have a “conversion experience” which smacks of brainwashing and arguably should be illegal. Some deliberately seek out the ill or the grieving, not to give consolation, but to prey on them when they are weak and irrational. If you can’t convince someone without them being vulnerable in some way, what does that say about the worth of your arguments? If you have to trick people and con them and brainwash them into following your Jesus, what kind of value can your beliefs possibly have?
It’s not the message of Jesus that is necessarily wrong or offensive; it’s the act of cramming it down the throats of others which makes bystanders hate you. As if your message is so worthless that no sane person would take it except by trickery.
I would rather have Good than God.
I would rather be spiritual than religious.
I would rather have Truth than belief.
Most evangelicals make me feel I have to choose one or the other, and so they lose.
Thank you, Internet Monk, for showing me that that isn’t *always* the case. And for reminding me that not all Christians are nasty people; I know it intellectually, but I have to struggle every day to remind myself of it. Thanks for making it easier.
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Hey Sarah Yes. Ask your grandparents to back that up with scripture from the Bible. Many “church-goers” and undisciplined Christians open their mouths before checking with scripture on what the Bible says. Are there hypocrites and bigots and lazy folks who don’t read their Bibles in the church? Absolutely! Are their bad pastors, false teachers, etc…in leadership. You betcha! And folks take God’s word out of context all the time. This is what reformation Christians have always stood for… Do not go beyond what is written. Andy made a general statement that “Christians said scripture was clear”. Uhmmm no they did not. Some ignorant folks who called themselves Christians did. But the Bible did not, does not, and never will.
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Why not share marriage? Because I believe we were designed in a certain way and marriage can only between a man and a woman. I am all for civil unions with many of the rights of marriage, but marriage is heterosexual and I must oppose those trying to re-engineer humanity and the culture to match their current ideology.
Please do not posit that Jesus would advocate sin for the purpose of being seen as “loving” by sinners. Instead, he chased off those condemning the sinner while telling them to “go and sin no more”. Love and righteousness are not at odds in the life and teachings of Jesus. I will not condemn gay people, nor will I call their relationships marriage. Indeed, a homosexual orientation is not even condemned in the Bible, only the act of gay sex itself.
Re: evolution. It is becoming clearer by the day that darwinism simply fails on the large scale as poorly as it succeeds so well on the small. This will get worse, not better as more scientists dissent. Be prepared.
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Many great points in this article. I used to be (hopefully I am still not) one of the jerks. I attribute my past behavior to pride, immaturity, and being influenced by others’ “in your face” behavior.
I especially appreciate the point you made on private prayer when you asked, “Does our public manner grow out of a true inward experience of private prayer?” It’s much easier to walk humbly before the world when we walk humbly with our God.
Do you believe that a reason why so many “evangelicals” behave as you describe is because there is a lack of sound doctrine?
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Your points are well stated and well taken. I basically agree with everything he said, and I believe I can genuinely empathize with how the non-believing world feels about us evangelical Christians because it’s the exact way I feel about militant environmentalists, self-righteous vegetarians, and crusading homeschool familes. These three groups of people exhaust me as they make me feel guilty for not joining their cause. So I have an inkling of how the nonbeliever feels when I leave a Gospel tract with my tip or answer the phone “Jesus saves.†Yet my position is that the Great Commission is not to endear people to ourselves, i.e., make them our disciples. It is to make Christ’s disciples. Of course, the ordinary response to that is the salesman’s motto, “If you want to sell your product, you have to first sell yourself.†But the truth is that people will hate us no matter what we do—whether we are winsome or woeful. Let me back that up with Scripture from Matthew 11. No one epitomized the hated, crusading Christian more than John the Baptist with his ascetic lifestyle and “Repent or perish†message. Yet Jesus said, “Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater†(Matthew 11:11). But here is the key to my assertion that people will hate us no matter what we do. Jesus essentially said that “we’re darned if we do, and darned if we don’t†(Jesus would use “darn,†not “dam*†🙂 ) when He says seven verses later, “For John (the Baptist) came neither eating nor drinking, and they say ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinner.’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions.†The nonbeliever will hate us no matter how we behave. In truth, they don’t hate us but the message we deliver and ultimately they reject the God Who is the message. Sound bleak? But that’s why Jesus added, “But wisdom is proved right by her actions.†What does that mean? Read Jesus’ instructions to his disciples in the previous chapter, Matthew 10, and I believe you will see. Essentially, He says that we will be persecuted, and so we must be “shrewd as snakes and innocent as doves†(Matthew 10:16). Each individual must ask God how that plays out in his or her life. Some may be repent-or-perish John the Baptists. Others may be sinner-hugging, good-time loving, Pharisee-vexing sons of man. But neither is passive evangelism. It’s active, proactive evangelism that focuses on reporting “what we’ve seen and heard†(Matthew 11:4-6). In short, being a witness at the trial, not the judge. Then there will be a few in the world—even some who view us as militant, self-righteous, crusading evangelicals—who will understand that our main message is not that they are guilty, but that they are pardoned.
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I should note that there are two Andys here. You can differentiate us because my name is followed with the initial ‘D’.
@Lance, I make no arguments that using the bible to oppose interracial marriage is disgusting, but it did happen. You can justify just about anything from the bible if you go through it with a comb. People do this all the time, and I suspect in another 30 years or so we will look back in disgust at how the bible was used to stop gay marriage.
@Don, if marriage is so sacred to you, why don’t you follow Christ’s example and share it with everyone.
Also there is plenty of evidence to support macroevolution, yes there are missing links, but we have so many transitional fossils that show so much.
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Gay Believer:
You confuse positive rights (the right to something, especially something from someone else) with negative rights (freedom from a constraint). Constitutional civil rights are all negative rights: there are no positive rights. Not the right to food or water or shelter much less marriage. The intent was to restrict government; not the people and especially not the church which asserted it’s right to religious freedom as the first enumerated right. Marriage is a privilege and a contract, although greatly damaged by divorce, it is not a right. Government has an obligation to adjudicate contract law and thus can justly be viewed as an arbiter of marriage. Now as to the basis for a given restriction on marriage that is open to debate. No one is free to marry anyone else as a civil right. It’s restricted to people of opposite gender, sufficient age, and genetic distance and limited to one at a time. You may object to the gender constraint, and I expect one can make a reasonable case on equity and minimal government grounds, but don’t distort the notion of civil rights.
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*J (12 Mar, 1:54pm), you missed every one of my points. The FAA’s concern for air safety has nothing to do with it.*
Orly?
*The church’s desire for excess resulted in the FAA making an authoritative and determinative decision in a religious matter.*
Orly?
*The FAA, and not God, made the decision.*
Orly?
*Irony.*
I don’t think that word means what you think it means.
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Chris: I’ve left up a few atheist comments that mildly wished we could moved from the planet. I deleted about 50 that included lines like “I want to poison all evangelicals and their children.” If you can’t read the rhetoric in this thread and others that sounds like overt, open threats of violence, then I can’t help you. See those trees? There’s a forest in there.
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Don: First off, I am not lost. I am complete, happy and moral. I have been to many different churches but found them unfulfilling and fake. I’m sure that there are good churches out there, but honestly, I don’t need a man to tell me how to interact with my creator.
Secondly, how exactly does a gay couple being married force anything on you? Additionally, how does that equate to people taking your job?
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Funny, I see a lot of things wrong in many of the posts here. I’m not a Christian or an Atheist, just to be up front. I used to be a fundamentalist Christian though.
First, faith does not equal belief – it presupposes it. Faith is actual TRUST that something is so with no evidence. A good example is Indiana Jones in the Last Crusade” where he stepped out onto what looked like empty space.
Second, we ALL exercise faith in doing anything. Observation as a basis for reasoning by definition is having faith in causality.
Stepping off the curb is an act of faith that some idiot won’t ignore the light and run you over. Trusting what your senses have reported and what your brain has interpreted it as is also an act of faith.
I’ll agree with you Atheists on one point. It’s stupid to have faith in a belief that’s repeatedly shown to be contrary to evidence. Yet we all do it – religious and non-religious alike. What we should be doing is re-examining the belief that got us there.
I’m not trivializing religion here. I’m just making the point that even Atheists and Agnostics and whatever I am have to live by some degree of faith and we all get it wrong sometimes.
Third, it’s amazing to me how many of you who self identify as Christians DON’T visit prisoners, feed the hungry and care for the poor even though you were commanded to do so several times over in the new testament.
Start doing that AND inviting “sinners” like prostitutes, homosexuals, abortion doctors and the like to have a meal with you. Use that time to get to know each other better and THEN you can start trying to talk to me about Christianity.
If you’re not doing that out of genuine compassion and warmth, you’re not doing the most important things that Jesus taught you. Stop saying how much you love us and start DOING it!
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J (12 Mar, 1:54pm), you missed every one of my points. 😦 The FAA’s concern for air safety has nothing to do with it. The church’s desire for excess resulted in the FAA making an authoritative and determinative decision in a religious matter. The FAA, and not God, made the decision. Irony.
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Thanks so much for this powerful post.
Wish I had come across your blog prior to creating a movie with my atheist college roommate. We’ve had an amazing journey/dialogue over the past four years. You can see a bit of it at http://www.purplestateofmind.com.
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Thank you Merc for a perfect example of the unfortunate fog the evolution debate is so often conducted in.
In reality, the only portion of evolution that can be compared to gravity is on the smallest of scales, and within species. Everywhere else, including the fossil record, shows appearance, little change, and then extinction. Darwin himself considered this evidence to be falisification of his theory, but today darwinism has become such an article of faith to so many that to say so is to be called a “creationist”. This is not science.
One simply cannot apply the certainty of microevolution to the large scale where there is no certainty. It doesn’t work, and all the evidence is marshaling against it while more is accumulated daily.
And, for the record, ID and creationism are not the same thing and when they are conflated, it is for ideological reasons, not rational ones.
Finally, I do not want ID or creationism taught in schools. I want evolution taught there, as well as the skills to question it. That is science without ideology.
Someone called darwinism “the last of the great 19th-century mystery religions” and I must say there is some truth there.
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For those who have commented regarding receiving hatred as being assurance of being on the right track. That can only be said to be true sometimes.
Jesus was seemingly embraced by the common people of his day. It was the religious people of the day who hated him. The “sinners” all wanted him to come to dinner!
Too, Peter wrote in his epistles that we would have trials and suffer, but that none of us should suffer as a doer of evil. In other words, don’t commit evil, the say “I am being persecuted” when the consequences of your own evil deeds fall upon you.
So when we’re jerks, the hatred of the culture is to be expected. Were we to be as Christ – and his life to be alive in us, some will hate us, yes (probably the religious), but many people will come to know Jesus.
Jus tmy $.02
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I grew up as an Evangelic Christian and always had a problem when fellow believers were ramming those outside of their elite camp to become Christians. Being a Bible scholar, I can find no support for the notion to become a Christian anywhere in Scripture. There is no such reference anywhere in the early Aramaic or Greek texts. Far more important than becoming a Christian is living out the words of Jesus recorded in Mathew 5-7. It is ironic that the ministers of the gospel would rather preach from the letters of Paul, but will seldom dare to preach the challenging message of Jesus as per the quoted Bible portion.
It is time that we as evangelicals get over it! Yes, get over being a Christian and rather live as Jesus would have us live.It is significant to note that the early followers of Jesus were called ‘Followers of the Way’ as He was and still is indeed the Way, the Truth and the Life!
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Our pastor recently said something very pertinent:
We have to EARN the right to share the gospel with someone based on our actions and words. I feel like I’m walking a razor’s edge sometimes. For years we stuck to our church family but finally realized the lost weren’t coming to us. I’ve been criticized for some of the friends I have, but darn it, some of them are truer friends than christians. I just need to love these people, and I do. I don’t always love their language or laugh at their jokes. But they are friends, and who knows when they’ll be open to the gospel. I need to be in the right place at the right time, and that’s by being around them.
M
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imonk,
I agree!! You said that very well!!
Blessings,
Gary
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“Perhaps they should be banned from the public square for attempting to enforce their religion on the rest of us?”
The public square is for free speech. Athiests are perfectly willing to let you exercise your right to free speech there, and expect the same in return. The debate over evolution has nothing to do with the public square, and everything to do with public schools. The difference between the two is that the public square is simply a public place, but a public school is effectively part of the government. It receives funding and must follow standards set by the government. Because of that, what happens in schools has to follow constitutional guidelines, in this case, the separation of church and state.
“Evolutionary theory is questioned because there are substantive questions about its veracity. This is how science works. Surely evolution is not sacred, correct?”
Frankly, no, there aren’t. Evolution is true, or at least as true as the theory of gravity, the theory of conservation of momentum, the theory of conservation of energy, etc. There are certainly details about the mechanisms behind evolution that are unclear, but that doesn’t mean that evolution is untrue.
As an example, until about 100 years ago, Galileo’s theory of relativity was the current theory of how to compare two “frames” in relative motion. Then Einstein came around and discovered that time wasn’t actually a constant, that as things approached the speed of light, time slowed down. At first this was just a set of mathematical equations that explained a few observations that otherwise didn’t make sense. In the century or so since then, a number of experiments have been done that show that observations agree with the predictions of those equations. These days the only reason GPS works is that Einstein’s equations are used instead of Galileo’s. Does this mean that Galileo’s math was wrong? Maybe, but it’s still a very close approximation of reality in almost every case. Do physicists think that Einstein’s math is perfect? No, in fact, they know that there are inconsistencies, but they also know that it is a better theory than Galileo’s.
Similarly, the current model of the theory of Evolution is not the final word. The current theory is almost certainly wrong in some details, however the basic tenets of the theory are true. This is very important because it isn’t just an abstract issue. Just like you can’t make GPS work without Einstein’s version of relativity, the science behind flu vaccines relies on the truth of evolution.
For that reason, if children are going to be taught biology, it is essential they be taught evolution, just like it’s essential they learn about gravity in physics, multiplication in math, the periodic table in chemistry, etc.
Creationism / Intelligent Design are not science, they’re theology. Science requires that you follow the scientific method. Biologists would gladly accept a theory that was consistent with the story of creation from the bible, or the newer intelligent design stories if those theories were a better model for the world than evolution. They don’t. Science is an open system. Any biologist is free to come up with a theory that incorporates creationism and is a more accurate model of the world than the current evolution model. All they have to do is publish that paper in a biology journal so biologists can duplicate their tests and verify their findings. However, if this new model doesn’t allow biologists to properly understand how to create a flu vaccine for the next year (for example), it won’t go very far.
The courts have decided that the constitution requires that religion be kept out of the classroom in public schools. It is fine to teach creationism in a mythology class in a public school, or in a sunday school class in a church. However, the constitution says schools are not allowed to teach one particular religious viewpoint over another (thereby establishing a religion).
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I got a weird feeling from reading the original post.
Although much of it is an intelligent cultural evaluation of Christian hypocrisy, I couldn’t help but feel the breeze of a judgmental spirit – that we “evangelicals” are the villains set in contrast to the noble unbeliever.
Strange.
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Can an atheist be seen as a hypocrite in the way a Christian can? Unless they are caught praying?
No attack intended.
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RAP: “All very interesting, but how is this reconciled with ‘Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.'”
Perhaps because early Christians were part of the Roman empire, where the majority of people believed in and depended upon the good will of their pantheon of gods. Christians refused to sacrifice to the Roman gods, and were indeeed persecuted for their obstinant disrespect. They were given plenty of chances, including Roman officials carefully not noticing if a Christian tossed a handfull of incense on the fire while praying to his own god, but ultimately they were punished for risking bringing the wrath of the Roman gods down on the Roman State through their refusal to participate in worship.
In some parts of the world today Christians may still be subject to persecution, but too many American Evangelicals look silly claiming to be persecuted for their beliefs because someone wished them “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas,” or differs from them on which version of the Bible to use. Makes it hard to take them seriously, and easy to be annoyed and dismissive.
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Very well written, insightful, humorous and honest essay. If you don’t mind, perhaps I can add an observation for a possible future revision.
I haven’t yet met any non-American evangelicals. I’m sure they exist, but all I’ve ever encountered (in 20 years of living in Asia with occasional visits to the USA) have been white Americans. And with few exceptions they tend to be less well educated about cultures and philosophies other than their own. Perhaps most Americans wouldn’t pick-up on this since any communication with evangelicals would be framed by common cultural knowledge and assumptions. But to the outsider, or to an American with some knowledge and sensitivity to other ways of living and seeing the world, the over-zealous evangelical can come across as a boorish cultural imperialist. And when the evangelical does take the time to learn something about other cultures or philosophies, it is often with the purpose not of enriching his own life but of finding some weakness whereby he might convert the heathen.
Keep up the good work, Michael. You’re the kind of American evangelical I’d very much like to meet.
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From Overlake:
How did true religion, especially considering the tattered state of family, marriage, and sexual relations in the church, become about the state’s laws regarding marriage–a topic prominent here? About evolutionary theory?
—–
Because our faith informs our views on issues does not mean that our faith is about those issues. We are citizens and faith mean more to us than simple sentiment and good feelings. Marriage is sacred to us. Expect us to stand publicly for the things we know to be true. How is this not loving? How is this not Christlike? If true, it is our moral duty.
Separation of church and state does not (and has never) meant “no Christians allowed”. What a perversion of our founding principles! It means that government may not establish a state religion nor prohibit the free exercise of religion. Everyone’s position on these issues is informed by their basic assumptions about life and God; how did only those of Christians become unacceptable? An atheist says “oh, we are just beasts, and all that about homosexuality in their fable-book is not meaningful in our culture” which is entirely based upon their religious and philosophical assumptions. Perhaps they should be banned from the public square for attempting to enforce their religion on the rest of us? Because, if there is a God, and we believe there is, then there is no neutral position. This assumption of neutrality on the part of atheists is really a truth claim about (my) faith. It is an assertion that we are wrong, not because we are sometimes fools and hypocrites, but because we are Christian. We reject these claims. To deny us a role in the public square is pure anti-Christian bigotry and should be called such.
Evolutionary theory is questioned because there are substantive questions about its veracity. This is how science works. Surely evolution is not sacred, correct?
Being loving and Christlike cannot be used to make Christians act in ways contrary to what our Lord taught and lived.
I’m sure we will be called these things and much worse by the enemy of souls in these times.
I hope we stand firm.
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Religion seems to be dying in America. We are entering a new age of a godless America (Atheists doubled in population since 2001! There’s an advancing liberal/progressive trend and the movement is getting greater each day). Eventually we’re going to become a vocal subgroup and get rid of the chastising by people of faith.
All we need is a bit of direction and we can shape this nation’s humanist and empathic future once and for all! 🙂
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Andy D.
“30 years ago Christains said the scripture was clear and that interracial marriage was an abomination. Excuse me for not believing a book that was written at a time when a)marriage was a completely different venture then what it is today, and b)homosexuality was completely misunderstood.”
+1. I have yet to hear a coherent argument as to why this issue is any different than the many other civil rights issues Christians have agreed to (if sometimes reluctantly) in recent years. Though in all fairness, i think us non-believers do have to keep in mind that the church in various forms played a key role in abolition and many other social justice movements. While I am a straight married female, I have enough gay friends that it would be hypocritical (and as near as I can discern from the gospels un-Christlike) of me to set foot in any church where their service and their love were not welcome.
Lance,
“Bible believing Christians have never said interracial marriage was an abomination.”
I’ll let my southern grandparents know they weren’t “Bible-believing christians” until the 1980s, when they came around on this point. I have a feeling it may come as a shock, though…
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As I re-read older posts and read new ones here–and I deeply appreciate nearly every one–I see again how we American Christians made it so complicated, so hard–so Phariseeic. These complications only close many doors to suffering souls.
How did true religion, especially considering the tattered state of family, marriage, and sexual relations in the church, become about the state’s laws regarding marriage–a topic prominent here? About evolutionary theory? With a faith so simple that none should err therein, even about Bible scholarship?
Honor God above all, honor our neighbor as one’s self, care for widows and orphans, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, visit those in prison, don’t harm children. Walk humbly, love mercy, do justly. Is that so hard?
Yes, it is. It is so hard! So, rather than pay that terrible price for true submission to our faith, we distract our attention with a hundred pointless disputes, interfaith squabbles, picayune rules, attended by stupid and ugly outreach (read: growth/success/money) plans, schemes, teams, musical extravaganzas, and architectures. Then, as is also noted here, rather than throwing ourselves into “foxholes” with other terrified and needy souls, we will happily dispute all day with atheists who have no need of us, for it is so much less muddy.
When He returns, will He find faith upon the earth? I honestly do not know. Even in my own soul, I do not know. I hope so.
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Andy D. Bible believing Christians have never said interracial marriage was an abomination. Why? Because the Bible does not support that. The Bible does not even talk about race. We are either Jews or Gentiles, and in Christ we are all one. The Bible has absolutely no prohibitions against interracial marriage. It does have a prohibition against Christians marrying non-Christians. But once the deed is done then we are supposed to remain married. Nice try at a myth. Have there been bigots in the church who “said” it was an abomination? Probably. Hypocrites in the church? do tell.
As far as the Bible being unscientific. I could debate that with you all day long. In Job 26:7 the Bible says the “earth hangs upon nothing”. Job is considered the oldest book in the Bible. I could go on and on and on. Did you know that there has not been a single scientific paper (science not theory) explaining how cells evolved. Nothing. Which came first the cell membrane or the mitochondria?
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@Gay Believer, those are all very good and valid points, but I have yet to see a Christian supply a good answer to how opposing gay marriage is following “Do unto others…”
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The same-sex marriage issue is another really great one.
Religious marriage, as defined by the Bible, may be between a man and a woman. However, the Bible does NOT mandate that such a religious marriage entitles the married couple to ANY special legal or financial rights.
In actual fact, even within the Christian Era the precise legal rights that one gained with marriage, if any, varied greatly from time and place. During many periods, especially the Dark Ages, marriage provided NO special rights whatsoever in many places!
However, in our modern world we accord a number of purely SECULAR privileges to marriage that have NOTHING to do with Christianity specifically or religion in general. Your inheritance and tax rights come from the GOVERNMENT, not God!
What gay couples want are the legal rights that, in fairness, they pay taxes for and should by rights receive. This has nothing to do with religion. Indeed, many Christian denominations will not even recognize a secular marriage performed in front of a judge as valid anyway!
Even if same-sex marriage were legal no church would ever be legally obligated to bless it. The Roman Catholic Church already refuses weddings to divorced Catholics, and commonly refuses to perform mixed weddings unless the non-Catholic participant converts. Good luck trying to sue them for it because you won’t get anywhere. The government cannot obligate a church to administer a sacrament.
Yet this is a good example of denying people civil rights for religious reasons, something that was once also done for slavery. Needless to say a lot of people don’t see that as an example of treating others as one would want to be treated oneself.
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Evangelicalism is widely, and I believe, correctly perceived as allowing itself to be used as a political gimmick by the Republican party. The movement has been deliberately exploited so as to become identified with very negative, strident and intolerant single issues. Abortion, stem cell research, and gay marriage, and others have been pumped up and exaggerated and used create wedges between people to win elections by getting people worked up and dividing them. It’s been quite effective. Take something people believe in strongly and make it into the only thing that matters. The well has been politically poisoned. These things need to be aired and worked out respectfully, not made into clubs to beat each other with. That’s all most of us hear. And we see the consequences: instead of a dialogue, we have confrontation. There is a false sense that you have to choose science or religion, and that anti-scientific prejudice has played out with negative consequences for all of us. And evangelicalism is identified with those consequences.
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All very interesting but how is this reconciled with:
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
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I mean, I agree with the article, not what some of the Bible thumpers here have to say. and yes, I do teach the Bible for a living. I’m an NT PhD.
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Wow, totally agree. I have no problem with the creeds of an evangelical. I just have the problem with the “ism.”
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royalblood22…You’re pretty confident with other people’s words, or should I say, a group of long deceased other people’s words. Don’t be too quick to separate yourself from “the worldâ€, you are one of our species and it looks disingenuous to pretend your not, besides it’s awfully cold in outer space.
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Any one who stands for bible truth will be disliked .
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The more evangelicals align themselves with Biblical truth they will be hated by the world of liberalism.
No one in the world wants to be controlled less more controlled by a “unseen” God.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerne of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
In the none non-religious world there are no absolutes.Post modern thinking are based on compromises and feelings and not on any standard.They say “your standard is your standard and let me live my life the way i want” .Thats the way they see it.
The world does not see and all loving God he gives us freedom by guidelines.The carnal heart sees this as obstacles,restrictions.
Can there be any freedom without laws ? think before you answer.
Most evangelicals are not bound by the surety of the Bible in which they claim to believe and as such when one life isn’t aligned with core values,the world observe and take note. The world will be quick to point out any double standards as to make them selves more acceptable by pointing out our faults.
This stems from our teaching in many circles that once saved always saved,we teach that holiness is closely aligned with prosperity and wealth and feeling good is spirituality.
Nothing could be further from the truth the Bible does not teach that.The bible says the poor would be among you.The Christ emphasizes that this earth is temporary.He also emphasizes what i call kingdom maths He says the first shall be last and and the reverse.Christ taught humility.
Many of the preachers today preach it but there wardrobes,rides and lifestyle reflect otherwise.
Hypocrisy is something you can smell from a mile off and the world is quite acquainted with its odor.
So if we are to expect the world to start loving Christians forget it .It wont happened in fact many of the crisis (financial,environmental ,wars )happening today and in the near future will be blamed on Christians all except Mother Rome of Course who have made it no secret that all Evangelicals protestants will be called home.
These are the closing moments of earth’s History.There is nothing we can do about the world liking us. Its sealed we will be hated if we do not compromise our stance (
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@Don and Lance
30 years ago Christains said the scripture was clear and that interracial marriage was an abomination. Excuse me for not believing a book that was written at a time when a)marriage was a completely different venture then what it is today, and b)homosexuality was completely misunderstood.
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Great article! I found myself agreeing with many of your points. I re-dedicated my life to Christ Jesus about a year ago after many years on the sin merry-go-round. I sent an email to all my family and friends and professed my new status as being “born again”. After that I experienced quite a bit of backlash. In one situation I guess my sister in law thought my behavior was not up to born again “saintly” status in response to a family issue. I have resolved not to identify myself as a “Christian” but rather a “follower of Jesus Christ”. As we know anyone can claim to be a Christian. (Barak Obama comes to mind). The Lord has called me to be an Intercessor and I find that prayer is a much more effective way of winning souls than trying to get a person who is living in this worldly, fleshly domain to understand the “foolishness” of the Gospel. (1 Cor 2:14).
The other thing I have learned is that true holiness cannot exist apart from God’s love. (Eph 1:4). Holiness is not being “holier than thou” but truly having the love of Jesus Christ in our heart and seeing people the way He sees them. This IS a supernatural thing because I am incapable of this without Him.
In Christ, Sara
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It is articles like this that make me say, “Clint, sometimes you really suck.”
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Here is an interesting story about loud vs quiet evangelism on a secular college campus. Turns out being nice to people actually works.
http://tiny.cc/ZBHBb
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*Thy speech bewrayeth thee. Asking the FAA what the limits of their faith is? Hey, FAA, how faithful will you let us be?*
I assume you reject any such pedestrian notion as that the FAA made such a decision based on the needs of aircraft in flight?
*Another reason much of Christianity is hated is that Caesar is placed as a higher authority than God*
Wait . . . if Caesar were placed as a higher authority than God then wouldn’t Caesar be hated more, as the more-authoritarian figure?
*Same sex marriage is a good example. We have granted Ceasar the ultimate authority and final word on the definition of marriage.*
Who’s “we”? And, given that there are bans on same-sex marriage even in civil venues (i.e. as administered by clerks or justices of the peace) in 40-odd states right now, it actually seems like no, we haven’t granted “Caesar” anything of the sort.
“We’re happy for decades until he redefines it, then we whine. Waaaah!”
Huh?
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Here’s another reason, and it’s probably the main one. People don’t respect others who are not honest. The basic premise of your faith is just that, Faith. It’s not reason. It was considered reason in an age when science barely existed – you know when the Greek god Helios tethered the sun around the flat earth and before the germ theory of disease taught us about how we succumb to Ill Humors. But it isn’t considered reason now and modern people just inherently recognize that dogmatic Evangelicals are wrong to assume their very specific claims are based on reason. Faith is faith and reason, reason. If your movement was honest, and smart, it would recognize that fact. If Evangelicals understood the vulnerability of their faith and accepted it as a gift that they commit to despite evidence in the natural world then their faith would truly be a personal decision that they hold sacred, instead of it being falsely understood as evident as gravity and thus available as a hammer to condemn. Faith understood in this way creates adherents who probably resemble the leader their faith is based upon. As Evangelicals comprehend their doctrine in an honest fashion the resulting humility of this simple recognition may change the “world’s†negative opinion.
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Mike (the atheist) above makes some really good points only a couple of which I some small thing to add.
1. I find it hard to respect the tendency to reject important information gathered through the use of the scientific method.
I’m a scientist and a Christian (Catholic by denomination) and a biologist who believes in God and evolution and sees no necessary conflict between the evidence we acquire through exploration and reason and the revelations of faith. When Christians deny physical evidence or push false a “science” they demonstrate a lack of faith and a rigidity that is understandably off-putting to outsiders because it goes against the pursuit of truth. Faith is like Godel’s theorem in reference to complete mathematical systems: there always exists one axiom which is unprovable in a perfect and complete system. So like Euclids parallel line postulate (the rejection of which leads to nonlinear geometry) faith is the axiom which accepted or rejected changes your whole world view. It can neither be demonstrated nor disproven. We Christians would say: this is by design. Because if God were irrefutable, our faith in Him would be involuntary and our love of Him would empty of sacrifice and only a hollow compelled response.
Reason is, as all worldly talents are, a gift from God and therefore must be reconcilable with God and a support for His intended purposes for us: love and reconciliation. Rejection of reason by Christians shows a brittle shallow faith and a lack of charity toward the atheist/agnostic who sincerely inquires after faith (I used to be an atheist myself BTW).
It’s a great subject by the way.
6. Retelling history wrong. i.e. Calling the US a Christian Nation. Seriously go read up on it. Many of the founders were nothing close to Christian.
I agree. This is simply a fact. While some Founders were deeply religious others like Jefferson were “Deists”. As I understand “Deism”, it is too vague and imprecise to really be Christian, since Christianity is defined by the belief in a very specific Biblically defined singular God. The convenient re-characterization of the Founders is a political and hence worldly exercise. When political effort turns away souls from God it is clearly not His work. Michael (iMonk) comments frequently on this point.
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Wow. Lots of comments to chew on. In the end it is the message of the cross and the resurrection of Jesus the Christ, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, God Incarnate. Bible believing Evangelical Christians need not stop sharing the Gospel. It is to be preached in season when people are willing to hear and out of season when they are hostile. Like I posted earlier, of course there are hypocrites, false teachers, etc… that are in the church. Jesus said there would be. Many of them are not believers. Many of them are Christians who have never been made a disciple by a more mature believer. Many are there attempting to destroy the church. Every Christian needs a Paul, a Barnabas, and a Timothy. Of course some Christians can be jerks, but we should not be so defensive as to poll unbelievers as to what message they would like to hear from us. Christians should not be tearing into each other. This is what the enemy wants. But we are commanded to stand firm for truth, and we can all stand firm and be self-controlled full of joy. The Spirit helps us.
As far as praying for atheists. Of course I will.
I don’t hate any homosexuals, but I will not support changing the definition of the word marriage. Blessings
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…why the cross is 170 feet tall. “That’s as high as the FAA would let us build it”
Thy speech bewrayeth thee. Asking the FAA what the limits of their faith is? Hey, FAA, how faithful will you let us be? Another reason much of Christianity is hated is that Caesar is placed as a higher authority than God (says so in Romans 13, don’t ya know!), and everything is cool until Caesar disagrees with God.
Same sex marriage is a good example. We have granted Ceasar the ultimate authority and final word on the definition of marriage. We’re happy for decades until he redefines it, then we whine. Waaaah!
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I learned about this blog from a secular blog, and having read this article I will be a regular from now on.
I’ve been a Christian since my infant baptism, in a conservative Lutheran household in which everyone still attends church regularly, and my brother is a pastor. Recently I began attending a more evangelically-inclined church that all about being born again. Fine, it’s not my thing but I can see how people can feel spiritually nourished by it. A week ago I attended a church lunch where the lady sitting next to me expressed horror when I admitted that I wasn’t “born again” in her sense of the word. My protestations of baptism, confirmation as a teenager and faithful religious observance into middle age were not good enough for her. Recognizing the glassy-eyed look of a zealot, I said this was something we couldn’t agree on and refused to discuss it further. But I was offended. It really made me wonder how she would have treated a bona-fide non-believer.
I have spent too many years feeling embarrassed by the label of “Christian” in spite of my love for our Savior, whose name is besmirched by too many of His putative followers.
The non-Christian blogger who referred to this blog, a Jew, was powerfully impressed by your message. Can we hope that more of this brand of Christ-like humility and integrity can help undo some of the damage?
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`I’m always a little afraid when people use the “everyone hates you because your holiness rebukes them”. The Jehovah’s Witnesses use this same argument frequently to explain why people treat them poorly, as do the Mormons, although the Mormons are getting a little smoother in their marketing.
Real holiness convinces and attracts people, but holiness is hard to achieve in this 21st century ecclesiastical environment. I wish I had the words to say what I want to say, but when I was an evangelical I got the impression that holiness was for Catholics and Wesleyans, and that I would do better to cultivate a “robust trust in the completed work of Christ on my behalf.”
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Andy, I am not going to characterize non believers in any particular way. They run the gamut. The one thing they all share is that they are lost, being separated from the source of life.
Mr. Z gave the game away when he showed that it is our belief in the supernatural that makes us so mock-worthy and deserving of hatred in his eyes. No matter how perfect we become, this will remain the central issue. No amount of self-flagellation on our parts will make much difference here.
Bad behavior by Christians will continue until the return of our Lord. Sorry. My own solution has been to stand and rebuke them for it and not tolerate it in my presence. I too have failed at times as have all of you. Despite that, I am saved. The sign of being saved is continual growth as a Christian. Only God knows for sure, but our friends and family have a pretty good idea… At no time will the opinions of atheists be our guide however.
One of the most disturbing things I am seeing here is the characterizing of those who wish to retain the sanctity of marriage as militant, hate-filled or not being Christ-like. We must always accept all people in our churches and fellowship, but we can never ever disavow the clear words of scripture on this issue. Marriage is hetero. Sorry, you can’t have it. Expect us to represent our perspective in the public square as you do yours. Stop calling names everyone.
Pluralism is the choice for those who have conflicting fundamental beliefs to live together in peace, not the forcing of others to our own beliefs. I recommend it. This means if marriage is not gay, then you do not try to hound us out of our jobs and reputations, and if one day it is gay, then we still must be civil to you as well.
It takes two sides to have a culture war.
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M. Scott Rogers–You seem to equate a desire to be righteous with elitism. Actually, my journey to understand and practice true righteousness has produced a much more profound sense of humility as I work, fail and realize my complete dependence on His grace.
“No unattainable standards, no ambiguous morallity, no deceptive dogma.” This is the final tag from your response. I’m sorry that this is in any way indicative of chasing the lifestyle to which God has called every believer.
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Brian,
With respect to your ‘eyesore’ crossess. I’d be challenging the local government that granted planning permission. Landscape/visual imapcts.
I’m not sure what environemtal/town planning is like in the US, but the argument against that kind of development here in the UK wold be very strong 😉
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The vaunted “Culture Wars” also come into play here as well.
Just to provide a context, where I used to live in New Jersey I attended an Episcopal Church where our priest was fond of elaborate practices. On Good Friday the entire congregation would march with candles and bearing a full-sized wooden cross from the church, around the town square and back.
Want to guess how many times we got harassed by atheists? Or ordered to stop by a “secularist” government?
Not even once.
This rather dramatic public display of faith met with no opposition in a densely-populated, multi-cultural, multi-religious, generally-liberal area.
So I personally have a hard time believing in atheist boogeymen out to destroy or supress Christianity.
However, because conservative Christians have developed a public image of consistently opposing civil rights, of denouncing both atheists and rival religions and generally trying to order other people outside their denominations how to live their lives, more and more non-evangelicals are prone to see them as hostile.
That evangelicals so often just turn up their noses and proclaim “they hate us because we’re true believers” comes across as insulting to non-evangelical Christians and just about everyone else, not winning any goodwill either.
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You know, a lot of what this is about isn’t really religion. Humans almost certainly have a wired high awareness of cultural identity. It comes up in things like Jaynes’ ideas on the evolution of consciousness and the notion that it arose in part to deal with cultural interactions as the growing human population increased contact with more or less alien cultures. And, on the scale of human existence, color prejudice is a recent phenomenon, the original prejudice being one of culture.
Humans are comfortable in a very consistent culture. As a common population becomes more culturally diverse, there is stress on account of differences. Humans are quite territorial, and maintenance of territory is an ancient source of cultural comfort. Territorial violations feel like cultural violations, and cultural violations feel like territorial violations and trigger the same responses. Territoriality today is substantially more the territoriality of intellect, belief, and practice than of geography, but tend to induce the same fearful responses.
Urging rational tolerance in religious matters is always a process that swims against the current of human nature, even when it’s recognized that we may want a “better nature.” And the urge for comfortable territory is always going to conflict with the competing urge to make the community a comfortable territory for all people. And as with all new ideas (and in terms of humanity, this is a new idea), it’s a matter of how determined are the “better natures” to move in better directions in the world as they find it. The adage of all that evil needs is for good men to do nothing applies.
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Oldtaku: “For instance, right above me is ‘Has anyone mentioned that atheists can be jerks too?’ I fully agree – atheists like Dawkins can be total jerks. This does not excuse your acting like one, and you have completely missed the point of the original post. It doesn’t matter how nasty you think Dawkins is, or how nasty I am being here – that’s not the point. Turn the other cheek.”
Thanks for your behavioral instructions to me. I appreciate receiving unsolicited instructions about how to act and think just as much as any non-believer would.
No, I haven’t missed the point of the original post, I’m expanding on it. I’m responding to other posts in the thread, that display a tendency I’ve seen among non-believers, including friends and family: they portray themselves as a unified group of sane, happy, healthy folks completely free of hang-ups or hypocrisy. How evangelical of them! Of course, it’s not true. I work as a volunteer with the homeless, plenty of whom are atheists who use crack and have a history of violence. They’re out there, folks. Since I don’t like to be stereotyped, I don’t stereotype others, and I don’t make the mistake of assuming that all the non-believers I know are similarly affected.
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JERRY FALWELL vs. RICK WARREN, TONY CAMPOLO
First, I applaud the points and the tone of your article.
Second, as a gay man in his 50’s – I don’t hate Christians or Evangelicals. I do hate hypocrites that use the name of God for their own selfish purposes. The “Cultural War” declared by the Moral Majority – Anita Bryant, Swaggart, Robertson & Jerry Falwell was not about God – it was about raising money, keeping power and gaining influence. Not very “Christian” from where I sit.
I’m glad those voices from the past have been replaced by the likes of Rick Warren and Tony Campolo.
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A church in my area recently erected a 170-ft. cross on its property, adjacent to two major thoroughfares in the city. In my discussions with fellow believers in my church, none of us really understood why they did it. Does a 170-ft. cross communicate the gospel in some special way?
The church said that the cross “marked the city for God.” Huh? A scan over the horizon shows the vicinity speckled with church steeples topped by crosses. How does a giant cross “mark” the city?
On the news, church spokesmen said the cross is for “hurting people.” What? Did Jesus say, “I was hungry, so you built me a humongous cross to look at?” We were confused and a little annoyed, because this 170-ft. cross — which, by the way, is lit up all night long — is kind of an eyesore.
The pastor of the church finally answered why the cross is 170 feet tall. “That’s as high as the FAA would let us build it,” he said. I still didn’t understand.
I asked my very, very, very conservative Republican friend about it. He said he found it “refreshing,” since after “the liberals” had forced prayer out of schools, taken nativity scenes and Christian monuments off public property, kept abortion legal, etc., this church had built a cross so big that “the liberals” who lived in the area or drove through were forced to look at it, and since it was on church property they couldn’t do anything about it.
I finally understood why the cross was built. Now I’m not annoyed by it. I hate it. That church turned what is for me a symbol of beauty and grace into a proxy for a giant extended middle finger to the community.
——————————————–
Another church a mile or two away is also making plans to build a gigantic cross. It will only be 150 feet tall, as it is closer to the nearby airport.
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*“It doesn’t matter whether you’re selling Jesus or Buddha or civil rights or ‘How to Make Money in Real Estate With No Money Down.’ That doesn’t make you a human being; it makes you a marketing rep…*
Forsooth, Andy. I have no general idea (I do have many small, specific ideas) about what’s causing a decline in evangelicalism or other strains of Christianity. And frankly I’m pretty pleased that it’s Someone Else’s Problem. But I can at least point this out as regards proselytism: Everyone recognizes it. *Everyone*. No matter how it’s done. And it sounds *exactly* like advertising. It is *exactly* as sweaty- and desperate- and coercive- and deceptive-seeming as Agway sales or telemarketing or those Ditech mortgage ads that were *everywhere* fourteen months ago.
And much the way a “conversation” with a marketing rep for anything else has a wooden, unreal, limited-response-set, Kafkaesque quality, so too does a “conversation” with many missionaries or “witnessing” Christians. One immediately gets the sense that there are about five or six essential ideas inside this person’s head and that anything you ask or tell them is only going to wind up with them slightly repackaging and redelivering them to you.
In other words, people don’t like evangelicals for the same reason people prefer “World of Warcraft” to “Choose Your Own Adventure” books.
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As an Atheist I greatly admire Jesus regardless of the historical accuracy of the New Testamnt. What does him a great injustice is when you use his word and name in hatred. (Did you support prop. 8? Have you picketed abortion clinics?)
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Your article is quite good, and has made an appearance in Reddit’s atheism community. You may find the comments there interesting.
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Don: “Assume, for the sake of discussion, the very best sort of Christ-like behavior among evangelicals. Do you know they would be hated less? It seems un-knowable to me since we cannot be sure of the source of atheist hatred in any given case or in the aggregate. Therefore, it seems to me to be legitimate to call all Christians to righteousness while understanding our fallen nature, and that no, we are not Jesus.”
You have missed the entire point of the article. You feel like Atheists and Agnostics are full of hatred, are predictable and unjust. We are not. I believe in charity, respect and an individual’s right to practice the religion of their choice. I don’t have anything against what you do in your church, but imposing your values on others through aggressive or militaristic means makes people uncomfortable.
I don’t hate anyone. I treat people the same way they treat me, regardless of their religion.
The biggest misconception between Evangelicals and Agnostics comes from our questioning of your religion and faith. We ask a question wanting to learn, to understand your views, but many times we are met with hostility and defensiveness. It causes suspicion and distrust when a person can’t answer a simple question about the topic they revolve their entire life around. Why do questions make some of you so uncomfortable? Arguments should make you stronger in your convictions unless, of course, your faith is not as strong as you outwardly project.
At some point in time, Christians will be more revered if they study not only what is in the King James Bible, but also the other books that didn’t make the cut as well as modern science. I saw the Early Books exhibit in D.C. last time I was there. It took up an entire museum an many of the books are not included in the version used by most people today. That seems odd to me.
Michael, I’m not sure if that last paragraph meets the rules so feel free to edit as necessary.
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“Has anyone mentioned that atheists can be jerks too?”
I agree for sure. And, likely, it is the same personality type that would be a jerk as a christian, or a buddhist or a hari krishna, etc, as well. There is an never-ending supply of people who discover some set of rules to live by and stick to the letter of that particular law as a safety net. It’s like they know the words of a song but not the melody. And then they want to teach everybody to sing that tuneless song.
One of my favorite quotes is from a movie called The Big Kahuna:
“It doesn’t matter whether you’re selling Jesus or Buddha or civil rights or ‘How to Make Money in Real Estate With No Money Down.’ That doesn’t make you a human being; it makes you a marketing rep. If you want to talk to somebody honestly, as a human being, ask him about his kids. Find out what his dreams are – just to find out, for no other reason. Because as soon as you lay your hands on a conversation to steer it, it’s not a conversation anymore; it’s a pitch. And you’re not a human being; you’re a marketing rep.”
I still have to chuckle at myself because I most definitely did not want to be Christian because I held such a bad opinion of many Christians. And then, some 10 years ago, I finally had to admit that I was one.
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I’m thrilled to read such a logical, intuitive article from a Christian perspective. It’s great to see an evangelical who ‘sees the light,’ so to speak. Thanks for writing this!
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*[Unbelievers] are frequently psychologically unsound, psychiatrically medicated, filled with bitterness and anger, tormented by conflicts and, frankly, unpleasant to have around.*
Speak for yourself. As for me, my former life as a believer was totally concomitant with my struggle with panic and anxiety (in the clinical, not merely existential sense of those words). I was continually, pathologically tense, *all* the time. It was only UNbelief that was the “grace that fear released”. It was only when I realized that the heavens were empty of anything other than clouds and the sun that I felt “right”.
*Without religious beliefs, there are no laws.*
Yes there are.
*Laws came from religious belief.*
No they don’t.
*Hitler and Stalin pushed their non-religious beliefs on society and turned it into laws, thereby forcing their non-religious beliefs onto others.*
Yes and no. Diving fullbore into Godwinism, have you ever seen the Nazi emblem? “Gott min uns”: That’s “God With Us”. If you’ve ever looked carefully at Nuremburg file footage, you’ll see lots of guys in the dock holding Bibles, too.
*Hitler had no real religious upbringing and Stalin was once in seminary. They were Marxist.*
Hitler was a Marxist? History rewritten at a stroke, that bit.
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You need to read Bob Altemeyer’s “The Authoritarians”
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
to get a better understanding of the base personality types discussed in the above article.
Treat it as a warning against allowing cheats to commandeer your communities.
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oh, i do know what else to say: the bottom line is one word:
FORGIVENESS
as Christians desire God to forgive their sins, so must we as human beings forgive each other for our sins.
as in the Lord’s Prayer:
“And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive them that trespass against us.”
that is all it ever meant, that as we ask for forgiveness, we must dole it out as well, for all we are is human, and as such, we are all imperfect, no matter what god you do or don’t believe in.
thanks again.
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I haven’t read all of the 100+ comments, so please forgive me if I’m repeating what’s been said …
Well said!
It’s one thing for people to reject the message of the Gospel. We expect that. But sometimes, we make it unappealing by hoping to be rejected ourselves and thus acting like jerks.
Jesus didn’t act like a jerk to those in need. The only people He ever treated badly were the religious leaders, in fact. (Well, them and the Temple money-changers.) To prostitutes, drunkards, tax collectors, and their ilk He was loving and accepting.
We would do well to follow that model — hard on religious leaders and easy on the world in need.
As my pastor often says, “Sometimes you’re not being persecuted because of the Gospel. It might just be that no one wants to talk to you because you’re a jerk.”
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as a fellow who has been an atheist most of his life after being brought up in Christianity, i can tell you, you are spot on. the issues you speak are some of the main things that drove me from the faith. (eventually, my love of science also lead me to study to the point where i have my own personal beliefs for [thankfully] much more worthwhile reasons than simple rebellion.)
items four and six were the initial deal breakers for me. i remember going to a private christian school a child. i recall several of my classmates having parents who taught at the school. i remember every one of these children being jerk-off’s. not just mean, but generally bad kids. however, regardless of how pious i was and how humble i was about it, they were consistently rewarded for their atrocious behavior in front of the school as though they were pinnacles of Christianity, while after school they would shove my face in the mud and then piss on my head. in sixth grade i left school in the middle of the day and walked home. it was at least a 2 hour walk from my school to my home. i was home for a half hour before the school called to let my mother know i was missing. of course, by this time she knew full well. it was no surprise to me of course, our principle LOVED being able to “discipline” students by not sparing the rod. i absolutely know he knew i was gone within 20 minutes because i hid on the side of the road from him as he drove by in his big ugly truck, obviously trying to find me before my mother so he could instill the fear of the Lord in me long before i could read my loving parent.
i could go into much greater detail of how i was abused, ridiculed, and accosted for simply being a quiet, studious, and reserved young boy who was very emotional compared to other boys, but i shall not, i suppose my short story has shown has cruel Christianity can be, but you already covered that in your beautiful article.
in conclusion, i want to thank you for this article. i have had many Christian friends for many years, and they DO treat me as a human being who is different from them but still worthwhile as who i am. i don’t think it is lost from the Christian community, but it definitely is harder to find than it used to be. (well, that is what i assume, perhaps i am wrong.)
you are a shining example of faith for being willing to write this and share it despite being called out in a negative manner by your peers. i think the most telling point of your essay is that it is true, no matter what faith we are (or lack thereof), none of us are without “sin” whatever your definition of it may be. my definition is that which hurts others. as a human, i will always hurt others unintentionally. it is the nature of humanity, and it is something Christianity has always preached. how does the quote go: “he is who without sin shall cast the first stone.”
whatever your definition of “sin” may be, we are all guilty, and thus all the better to be kind and reasonable with each other than bullheaded and expecting that it will win hearts. i will always be frustrated with someone who won’t practice what they preach if they attempt to convince me that they DO practice it when it is obvious they do not. if they are able to admit they are as human as i and are not free of sin, then how could i find fault with them?
i really cannot express more gratitude for this essay. i don’t know what else to say. thank you, thank you a thousand times over.
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Susan said, “I don’t talk about religion with people I know are unbelievers, unless they ask me about it first.” I agree that this is the best way, Susan. There is a passage in one of the letters to the churches in the New Testament where it says to be ready to tell about the hope you have to people who ASK you. I believe we are to live out our faith through loving and serving others. I believe that we offer love unconditionally to those who are living without faith or knowledge of God. The only “judging” that should go on is among the people within the Church itself. The letters to the churches are filled with indications that we are to teach, support and rebuke those “within our ranks” so to speak.
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This was a great article and I appreciate you writing it.
Let me first start out by saying that I am not a member of any church and never really have been. My observations are those of somebody on the outside who has been open to Christianity, but never embraced it. I’d like to tell you why.
From the perspective of an outsider, I have the following perceptions about evangelical Christians. True or not, this is how evangelicals have presented themselves to me.
1) They seem far more concerned with a few passages here and there in the old testament than with the teachings of Jesus himself.
If that wasn’t true, I would think that any issues about gay marriage and teaching evolution in schools would take a distant back seat to feeding the poor, getting everyone access to health care, and stopping people from killing each other (like, by opposing any war on general principles).
I look at where the evangelical lobbying money is going and wonder why they feel that condemning people more important than helping them?
2) You know how when a salesman walks up to you in a store and starts a conversation with you, you immediately feel on guard? I do. I feel like he doesn’t really care about me. He has an ulterior motive. He’s there to sell me something. I always feel like that around evangelical Christians.
Evangelical Christians make me uncomfortable, because I get the feeling that everything nice that they’re doing is just part of an effort to convert me. It’s not because I need help or love, it’s because they need members and money. I also feel the same way about many of their charities that involve preaching. It’s not charity if the real purpose is recruiting.
3) I feel that their priorities are backwards. If a man sins by constantly judging people, gossiping about them and spreading rumors but is heterosexual and goes to church every week, he is generally accepted by the church. His sins are because he is human. If a man devotes his life to feeding the poor and providing them with medical aid and a way to a better life and prays to God for guidance for 3 hours a day but he happens to be gay, that same level of tolerance is generally not shown.
I have seen some amazingly good Christians, who have done good works that inspire me. My father has devoted his retirement to feeding and clothing the homeless. An old roommate of mine gave a place to stay to a man who was vehemently anti-Christian just because he needed a place to stay. These are small things, but things that I respect. I believe that they are both good men, but I think that that is because of their nature and not because of their religion.
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I consider myself an Atheist. I’d have to agree with most of what was written. Here’s a couple of my pet peeves.
1. I find it hard to respect the tendency to reject important information gathered through the use of the scientific method.
2. The tendency to think you know whats best for any given situation because you have a “relationship with god”.
3. Making “out of thin-air” judgments about personal matters and then peer-pressuring your own church members into action, regardless if it is right for that person or not.
4. Thinking that we are lost and you have the answers we are looking for. I grew up on your “answers”.
5. Acting persecuted when someone questions your beliefs. As if anyone’s beliefs deserve a free pass.
6. Retelling history wrong. i.e. Calling the US a Christian Nation. Seriously go read up on it. Many of the founders were nothing close to Christian.
7. Promoting laws that discriminate and justifying it as being ok because its what you believe or what the bible teaches as right.
I could go on but seven seems like a good place to stop..
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If all Christians considered their faith as rationally as you do in your article, more atheists would have fewer problems with Christianity in general.
I can’t speak for ‘evangelical atheists’ (the irony is delicious!) but I will say this – in my experience athiests behaving badly are much more willing to reform their ways if you point out their bad behavior.
Part of the problem is that atheists have no central tenets, no ‘guidelines to follow’ or rules to live by. Criticizing others is only helpful when you can provide alternatives that truly help – and when your own life is an example. That’s mainly why as an Atheist I dislike Christian Evangelism – I’m a happy, productive person who lives by the Golden rule completely without religion of any sort. I don’t feel the need to burden myself with guilt, angst, or the feelings of inadequacy or shame that I see in most Christians. My father, on the other hand, is a devout Christian who continually impresses me with his moderate, rational faith and open-mindedness. His life is enhanced by his religion, not burdened by it. If more Christians understood the athiest view of religion as a ‘burden’ rather than an ‘enhancement’ they would definitely see more success in rational discourse with unbelievers.
Great article, by the way. Thank you again for your rational insight.
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As an athiest, the main thing that annoys me about evangelical christians is that they don’t mind their own business.
I have non-religious gay friends who want to get married. Most of my friends are non-religious, the whole region is pretty non-religious, but people whose religious beliefs say that homosexuality is wrong want to get involved in their personal lives.
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As a apathetic ex-Catholic I have to say that what I hate most about evangelicals is the blatant hypocrisy I frequently personally observe, as iMonk eloquently points out here. I don’t have any beef with people who try to live the life of Christ (you’re a better man than I am in that case), but when I see some holier than thou jerk calling down the wrath of God on someone for their sinful ways when I personally KNOW he drinks and hits his wife it’s extremely hard to take him or his beliefs seriously at all.
There seem to be a lot of the ‘if they hate us we’re doing something right’ people commenting here, and you are completely missing the point. You will NEVER, EVER, reach me that way. I see your blatant defects and reject the very idea that if you believed in the fullness of such a loving God, rather than just viewing him as a weapon to bolster your insecurities, you would be so nasty as you’re showing yourselves to be.
For instance, right above me is ‘Has anyone mentioned that atheists can be jerks too?’ I fully agree – atheists like Dawkins can be total jerks. This does not excuse your acting like one, and you have completely missed the point of the original post. It doesn’t matter how nasty you think Dawkins is, or how nasty I am being here – that’s not the point. Turn the other cheek. I don’t need to convert you, you’re already losing.
The original post nails why non-evangelicals tend to view you as small-minded evil troglodytes (yes, I’m being abusive – think about it). It’s because you trained us to do so through frequent example and you are dishonest about the reality of that. Which is all he said, more eloquently than I. “You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
If you ever want to save me, the only way you will do it through Michael Spencer’s example.
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Evangelical: “You can’t marry”
Gay: “Why not? Marriage is mostly a civic construct. Why are you sticking your nose in out business. How about clean up your own house first?”
Evangelical: “Wah! Even though we make up 90% of the Senate and House, and the population of the US, we’re being persecuted! Stop criticizing us!”
Gay: “????!”
That is why people despise evangelicals, and even other Christians. Even though Pat Robertson has a TV show watched by millions, somehow Evangelicals are being persecuted.
Pat needs to spend time in Compton to understand what that means.
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From an atheist: Thank you for an especially insightful and interesting post. I enjoyed reading it very much, and I can clearly see that you are one the most sane Christians I’ve ever come across. Most people I meet either don’t care about religion, or are everything you described here.
I wish more Christians would think critically like you. I’m sure your God would appreciate rational, intelligent people over mindless, unquestioning drones any day of the week.
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I was impressed by your honest assessment of the movement, and I intend to watch this post regularly from now on.
As a non-Christian who converses with other non-Christians who are a lot more angry at Evangelicals than I am, I think you hit on many of the major issues. I would add (and I admit that I did not read all of the other posts, so I hope I’m not repeating) the differences in opinion-such as on sexual, abortion, etc-lead to general annoyance, but that’s neither here nor there because nobody will, or should, immediately change their stance on these matters just because it’s unpopular with someone else.
For me, personally, the problem is with many of the things you mentioned. I was raised a Christian and have a deep respect for the teachings of Christ, and don’t understand why some people who profess to worship him focus so little on the compassionate, pacifist, forgiving aspects of his teachings. I know for a fact that this is a defining aspect of Christians, so why are those people the ones who are the most outspoken and get so much more publicity?
And you, as well as at least one other poster brought up the notion that “they”, or I guess we, hate you because it was prophesized that we would. I’m glad that you, at least, understand that this is not the reason (or the only one, since you responded to the other poster that you do think that this will be the case). The fact is, really, people don’t enjoy being constantly berated for the way they live their lives. Simply, most people just don’t want to be told how to live, and the opinion that ‘I’m not trying to convert them to my way of life; they should stay out of mine’ comes up often. It’s not that we feel like projects; we feel disrespected. We feel like we are, and are threatened by, being treated as lesser beings, which, if the goal is to make us one family in Christ (implying that we are all equal, as God’s creations and sinners and whatnot), doesn’t really make any sense.
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It is such a misconception that atheists say stuff and do things like demand as much public space as the religious & spiritual just to cause trouble. Atheists hate the impact religious intolerance has on the individual, government, society, etc.. and many of them are activists and progressive liberals.
We make a statement of personal-belief (“There’s no god”) and it is interpreted automatically as an insult.. We try to display rationality and reason when debating with the religious, but how can they trust your sacred texts (theorems, science/medical articles) when you have no trust in theirs?
Any time I try to explain something like mDNA haplogroups or the remarkable “coincidence” of sharing many of our unique proteins with apes, I’m shoed off and laughed at like the scientists who studied these things did it just to try to discredit the religious cause. This is what is wrong with the religious, this is why many people (spiritual and non) are becoming sick of it.
I believe there is no god because it doesn’t seem feasible to me. That is it. Not to make anyone mad. I live my life to the best of my abilities and maintain composure in my moral areas because I have respect for the gift we’ve found ourselves with: INTELLIGENCE. Without brotherly love, we will get nowhere. Secular humanism is what I’m about.
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As an atheist, I simply wanted to say thank you for this perspective. We all live in the same country and we need to get along as best we can. Nothing stinks quite as bad as hypocrisy, so while *some* evangelicals insist on painting the non-religious as immoral, substandard, depraved and indecent- their own lives don’t reflect a superior position. We don’t have any more abortions, failed marriages, troubled teens, alcoholics or mentally ill among us than do the religious. These are issues we ALL face, even though we elect to take different roads to wholeness, we ALL wish to be well and strive for betterment.
Please don’t tell us you’ll “pray for us”, it’s condescending. Please let us worry about what will happen if we have to face god in the afterlife- if we do, it’s between us and him, right? God should be big enough to do his own judging- without your help.
I think (I hope) it’s safe to say there are some things we can all agree upon. We seek love acceptance, we want better lives for our children, we want to be useful, and we want to be “good”- in whatever way we can come to understand. If you translate your morality through your religion, and I translate mine through my personal philosophy, then we both HAVE morality! It is unproductive, unkind, but mostly untrue to claim that there is no morality without religion, and specifically yours.
I sincerely hope the coming years draw us closer together as a nation, a house divided cannot stand.
Peace to all my christian brothers and sisters, we all need each other so much!
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Hate.
I see that word bandied about here and elsewhere, but I’m not sure you should be using it. Certainly not in the context you are. I think if the evangelicals should come down off their high horses for a bit. Make an attempt to have a conversation with a few of us atheists, without judging, and keeping God out of the conversation. Try to be a bit real, and not get offended at every little thing as was outlined in the OP’s post. You might find we’re not so bad. We don’t go around slagging God unprovoked generally; you see that side more frequently than most because you’re busy stuffing Him in our face.
We might use the word hate in conversation but I think if you look at context, it’s probably meant to mean how strongly we dislike your behaviour and hypocrisy. Mostly hypocrisy. If you’d spend as much time actually loving and accepting your fellow man despite his flaws (many of which you unadmittedly share) as you do advocating it, you’d have alot more respect.
Worst of all is how quick many of you seem to throw a family member to the wolves when you disagree on matters of religion. Mistreating, disowning, disrespecting, and devaluing them. It breaks my heart. I see no single better indicator of your system of ethics than your ability to accept a family member’s wish to follow a path different than your own. You don’t have to condone it, but you don’t have to shut them out and persecute them. I’ve seen multiple friends treated this way by their god-fearing families.
As Atheists we feel under assault by organized religion. We are judged as a group to be immoral when most of us are doing our best, just like you. Unlike you, we’ve never had an organized group of those who think like we do to stand with us. So many speak against us and when we speak against you, we accuse you of being wrong or hypocritical – you accuse us of being evil and predict our destination to be the same as those who do the worst evil. Do you see the difference? Who is the one filled with hate here?
So there’s a feeling of isolation, that we’re on the defense against a mob who wishes us ill if we don’t do as they want. But we have the internet, which has provided us a gathering place and a forum to speak. We tend to be intelligent, educated, logical and rational. Our positions are self-reflective and well thought through. Both of these sets of qualities are often more than I can say your brethren are possessed of, many of whom come across as gibbering radicals without a grasp on reason or reality.
Lighten up. I don’t hate you and most of my compatriots do not either, though they get a little pissy sometimes. I think if we work on it a bit we can both accept each other and agree to disagree. If not I think as time goes on you’ll find if you want an adversary you’ll have one more and more. And it think you’ll find that there are more like us where you least expect – they’ve simply been afraid of you, of your power to persecute and ostracize. But that imbalance is shifting to center where it belongs. I have faith in my fellow Atheists to be much more reasonable and accepting of you than you ever were of us. I think you’ll find in matters of daily interaction most of us will treat you as equals if you keep faith out of it, even when we know what your beliefs are. That’s more than I can say for most of you.
By the way – this whole post was typed with one hand, the other wrapped around my sleeping, precious new daughter. When she’s old enough I will encourage her to seek her own path. I will encourage her to think objectively and read varying viewpoints of religion to find that path. There will be others like her. I suggest it would do your order well to increase the ratio of tolerance and common sense to vitriole being communicated from your ranks.
I thank you for listening to my words and for the forum for rational discussion.
K.
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Has anyone mentioned that atheists can be jerks too? As a (Catholic) Christian, I’ve been hounded to abandon my faith by atheist versions of Jerry Falwell many, many times, their number including my own father. Is respecting others’ beliefs supposed to go both ways? I don’t talk about religion with people I know are unbelievers, unless they ask me about it first, BTW. But for many people, just knowing that I go to church is like waving a red flag in front of a bull.
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I like the article……I think people get angry over the stupidest stuff…If you do not want God…Fine don’t have him…But I will always stand for God, and offer the opportunity to someone. If they say no…fine….Your a cool person and all, but I would hate to be in your shoes if what I believe as a christian is true…If the other way around…..You could not say that to me….Bad luck for you buddy…you should have NOT believed in God while you were living…..That is just that….My shoes me feel sort of uncomfortable for the next 20-50 years, but I will tell you this….Better than for eternity;;;;I love the article though man, I believe it is good to show that to love someone is so different than the condemning “Christians” often do….And then I would ask…ARE THEY EVEN REALLY BELIEVERS? Hmmmmmm
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Paul,
You stated:
Christians, evangelical or otherwise, are not disliked for their beliefs. They are disliked for their behaviors.
For the most part I 100% agree with you.
But there are exceptions to this.. I am LDS and we are disliked because we are LDS. Many other Christians say how well we behave, how good our family values are, etc. but dislike us BECAUSE we are LDS.
Too many Christian people do not understand or know what we believe. They just know what they are told to believe about us and that we are not Christian.
Incorrect. OK, I admit we are not Trinitarian Christians, but we are still Christians. We believe in Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to Salvation and the ONLY way to return to God. We believe Jesus Christ as 1st & 2nd Century Christians did. We believe in the Old and New Testament and we study it all the time (King James Version).
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@ Mike r:
Without religious beliefs, there are no laws. Laws came from religious belief. Hitler and Stalin pushed their non-religious beliefs on society and turned it into laws, thereby forcing their non-religious beliefs onto others. Hitler had no real religious upbringing and Stalin was once in seminary. They were Marxist. Not the employee nor the employer. Funny thing, they never showed you one.
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Great post. Some of the things you point out are perennial problems for anyone who seeks to take religion seriously. Our profession will always supercede the quality of our lived faith. Ongoing doses of Biblical understanding and humility before our neighbors are always appropriate and necessary.
However, IMHO these recognizable weaknesses have been exacerbated exponentially by the American church’s unwitting acceptance of the suburban cultural ethos. In this way of life, we separate ourselves and form our own “kingdom.” To become a Christian in this system is not just a matter of personal faith or covenant relationship to a community of faith. Rather, it is commitment to a total lifestyle defined by the new cultural network.
The “believer” must build one’s life around the program of the church, identify with the right political party, use the right language, listen to the right music, avoid prohibited places and behaviors, etc. Though some of this has also been true in the past, the suburban culture and the increased prosperity and technology of the contemporary church makes it so much easier to separate oneself completely from the world in all the wrong ways, while maintaining the world’s ethos as the main perspective of my life.
As so many have said, people may be attracted to Jesus, but they don’t like the church. I think what they don’t like is the requirement that everyone must fit into the same mold.
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Not to pile on, but let’s not forget another aspect of American evangelicalism that does it no good: its strong identification in many people’s minds with old-style White Southern culture and its assertive political wing. Once “Dixiecrat” Democrats, now conservative Republicans, there are many Southerners (and others) who still harbor racism, and the anti-intellectual populism and attraction to violent solutions that go with it. Many of these folks are self-identified Evangelicals and see in their version of Christianity a justification for their cultural beliefs. For many of us, the voice of the Evangelical preacher and the voice of the crypto-racist sound the same, and too often they have been coming out of the same mouth.
I know this isn’t fair to those of you who aren’t part of this problem, but it is a reality that I don’t see Evangelicalism as a movement willing to talk about.
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Very good article. I think we don’t see enough honest self-evaluation these days. Jesus called those trying to pull splinters out of their neighbor’s eyes hypocrites; having beams in their own eyes. I think your article points out some of those beams. When we have all of them removed from our lives then maybe we will qualify to approach others about their beams; however, let him who is without sin cast the first stone (or criticism).
I am Mormon and your article applies to my church as well. May we all as “Christians” remember that with what judgement we render we shall be judged by that same standard. That said, we should all be extremely liberal in our tolerence and judgements of others.
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People wanting the poll: Look at the date. This was 7 years ago. I have no idea.
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I, too, would like info about the poll you describe. You are not the only one not feeling the love, just google “atheists not trusted” to see what others say about someone like me!
I do not hate evangelicals, so the persecuted tone of your piece is a bit strange. If someone kept hounding me with their super-duper wisdom that they must impart, I wouldn’t like that, and neither would you. Is that what you mean by evangelical? I would find that annoying, but it wouldn’t work me into a hate-filled rage.
to Don: did you not understand iMonk’s points?
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We in the secular world don’t hate anyone. We object when people take their personal religious beliefs and attempt to turn it into law, thereby forcing their personal religious beliefs onto others. We believe that everyone should just let everyone else believe what they want to believe.
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This is not a new problem. Nearly 30 years ago I came up with the term “negative witness” to describe the way the daily behavior of people in my own church was turning off our unchurched neighbors. The American church is full of “wet sinners” who mouthed some words but never really surrendered their lives to Christ–some of them are even in ministry and denominational hierarchy. And that part of the problem is not limited to evangelical churches, either.
On the other hand, all too many of those who hate us are looking for any excuse to avoid facing the claims of their Creator. So neither side has totally clean hands in this. We are all fallen creatures, not up to the level we were intended to be; a few of us even know it. And those few, on both sides, are the best hope for humanity.
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Contra Jared, unbelievers don’t much hate the American church (presumably the ecclesia) simply because we are imperfect. They often despise us–and here in Seattle that is not too strong a word–because we repeatedly try to hide or ignore our many personal-spiritual imperfections even as we point out theirs. The old beam v. mote in the eye thing. I say this as a Christian who 1) has been shipwrecked on the rocks of the church yet 2) still seeks, however imperfectly, to be broken upon His will.
There is much to be said for iMonk’s list. But can I attempt to boil it down? My short list may be too negative, I admit, but here goes–and I’d love to be shown the error in my thoughts, by the way.
Myself very much included, way too many Christians (for purposes of response to the “Why Do They Hate Us?” blog we cannot distinguish charismatics from evangelicals because “they” cannot either) 1) are spiritually shallow to the point of insincerity; 2) are psychologically unbalanced–and thus disordered in family and social life; and 3) yet are arrogant enough to convey the impression, all evidence to the contrary, that “we” are somehow better than “they.”
More shorthand: American Protestant Christianity now fairly appears to many as a generation of vipers, Pharisees, hypocrites, seekers of signs, seekers after favor, fame, and wealth, supporters of the powerful over the weak and the rich over the poor, and, of course, whited sepulchers full of dead men’s bones. We do not display CHRIST.
If only they hated us for His Name’s Sake! Instead, by many we are despised simply because we appear despicable.
And, from long personal experience I must agree with the general observation that there is often more reality, truth, and mercy to be found in a local bar, bus stop, grocery store, city park, etc., than in the local church. And, as someone flawed as I find myself after 30 years of Christian living yet who still hungers for a life in Christ with Christians, how I wish this was not true!
Is it fair to hold the entire church responsible for the failings of a portion? Of course not. But that is how it always plays out. I recall a line by Professor James Gordon of Brigham Young School of Law concerning the field I’m set to enter: “It’s true that some lawyers are dishonest, arrogant, greedy, venal, amoral, ruthless buckets of toxic slime. On the other hand, it’s unfair to judge the entire profession by fix or six hundred thousand bad apples.” Sorry, folks, but that’s the way it works out for the church, too.
Lastly, as the iMonk points out, too many of us–myself in spades–labored to save American society more than we labored over our own souls and the souls of our families. As a result, we are JUST NOT portraits of Christ. As for myself, I am ashamed of this.
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As a follower of Christ, I agree with your position regarding Evangelical Christians. However, we need to be aware that our culture/churches have labeled ourselves with that term. Which our media has tarnished with the Bush hatred, thus a negative conotation.
I grew up Catholic, with a father that was Baptist. Both camps had loads of “self-righteousness.” I think the number one problem with most denominatins is the lack of love. James 4 says, “Where there is jealousy and selfish ambition, there is disorder of every kind.”
I went through a painful divorce 15 years ago and by far it was not the secular friends in the “bars” that were there to support and love, no, it was the so-called evangelical Christians.
I truly believe that if we stand on the outside and judge the fellow Christian, as so many are doing, then I believe it is another regurgitated form of self-righteousness.
I, too have many friends who do not attend church anymore. Yet, Jesus was a Rabbi that went to Synagogue.. No, he was not rigid like a Pharasi, but he did tell us to worship together.
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There is not one wit of difference between your average atheist and your average evangelical Christian when it comes to loving their neighbor,when it comes to living the life that Jesus modeled.
Until the point at which an observer can see the fruits of seeking Jesus, as with the Buddhist example, Jesus might as well not exist.
I hated Christians for a good 3/4 of my life so far, precisely because of the things pointed out in this post. The fruits I saw were mean, hypocritical, selfish fruits that the rest of us were expected to view in awe.
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They hate us because they do not see through their own affirmations. ‘hate’ automatically affirms ‘love.’ Evil affirms good. Good and evil affirm morality or a moral code in order to differentiate between good and evil. Morality or a moral code affirms a moral code giver. So once you have established that with them you must now establish which intelligent designer fits best with how humanity sees reality. The question about hate and love, good and evil, are not valid wihtout an intelligent designer.
Now, in the United States, we live in a growing, religious, ‘pluralistic’ society. Most people argue that religions are fundamentally the same and superficially different. That is false. They may be superfically that same, but they are fundamentally different. To show this difference, one must give them reason to trust the Bible as an authoritative document. You can do this by:
1) Showing the number of ancient texts to compare
a.) The Bible has over 25,000 documents
b.) No other ancient text of ANY kind has this documentary support
2) Showing how the ancient prophecies were written prior to the events happening
a.) Daniel written late 500’s B.C. Put the prophecy pro-forma onto Alexander the Great
b.) Isaiah citing “cyrus” as the king who will allow the Israelites to return from Babylon to Jerusalem. (this citation made at least 100 years before Cyrus)
c.) Jeremiah prophecies about the Persians defeating the Babylonians.
d.) any of the Messianic texts in the Old Testament pointing to both Israel and Christ
Since all these events are true and were written before the events, this shows the supernatural aspect behind the scenes. This shows the accuracy in the text in which gives people a reason to trust the document.
3) Showing how the documentary support, the accuracy of events, and the person in Jesus Christ give a valid and sound reason why Jesus Christ must be taken very seriously.
Then you can move to why people hate us. They hate us because much Christianity has been polluted. Many claiming Christians are not righeous, holy, pure, etc. This does not make the message or the person false. Do we not think that the other empires around Israel who knew Israel’s iniquities didn’t think the same thing about them and their God? Of course they did. Out of all the gods worshipped in the ancient world, NONE are still being worshipped except Yahweh, our God. Not Marduk, not Isis, not Ashtoreth, not Ba’al, etc.
More people have died due to godlessness than bad Chrisitans. Have we forgotten about Stalin, Hitler, etc? These were Marxist thinkers. Absent from God, societies took a real harsh turn for the worst, and if American wants to deny God his position as the supreme and only diety, they will also suffer this harsh reality. They hate us, because they do not understand us. They do not understand truth. “To give truth to him who loves it not is to give multiplied reasons for misinterpretation.” – George McDonald.
There is my two cents.
Thanks,
Anton J. Thery
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Smugness. I see it on both sides. Atheists and the a-religious treat most Christians as “deluded” children needing the crutch of pie in the sky to get by. “It is OK for you, but I am beyond that crap.”
As for Evangelicals, I was an agnostic when the bumper sticker, “I found it” was very popular. It only made feel like I was interacting with a child telling me they had something that I did not have. I also was disturbed by some Christians acting as if they did not have to be better, or work harder, or be more compassionate, because they were already saved and God already loved them. God did not want them to pitch in, He wanted them to study the Bible at work. After all, they had found it, not I. I was, and still am, confused by people who start off simplistic answers to complex questions with the preface, “Well, the Bible says…”
Since then I guess I can say that I found it, but I found a God who wants a lot more from me, a Bible that is a little more complex than I thought, and group of believers who are holier than I could see.
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I don’t claim to speak for all atheists, just myself. I don’t hate evangelicals. I just get annoyed when you insist on talking about your invisible sky friend long after I have made it clear I am not interested.
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I’ve posted before that I used to work in the “secular world” and now work at a religious establishment. There is so little difference between the two that it’s frightening. In fact, had my job not been eliminated, I’d much rather be back at the “secular” job. I was treated with much more humanity there; I felt like a person hired to do a job, not a job that happens to (unfortunately) involve a person. And I didn’t have to hear the daily rants about how pathetic and misguided everyone else is and how superior we Christians (especially of this denomination) are.
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Imonk,
I loved this post and you are so right. More and more evangelicals are legalists. Why? Because they don’t read their Bible. They don’t know what the new covenant means. Moreover, Jesus said he came to heal sinners, etc. We run from and condemn the same people Jesus broke bread with.
Do you think it’s a coincidence that we privilege misreadings of Paul and marginalize the Gospels?
Amen.
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This post is like water to my soul! I agree that evangelical Christians are disliked for very good reasons. I am sad to say I have been on the offending end of your list of wrongs. As a result, I have wounded friends and family and pushed them away. At the time, I didn’t understand it.
Two years ago, my sister was diagnosed with cancer. The game was over. I had to be still and learn everything I could about her because she would soon be gone. She was an incredibly spiritual person. I learned much from her, but she was not a follower of Christ. Sadly, I had not lived the years prior to her sickness in such a way that earned my right to be heard. So I spent the last 3 months of her life listening to her. The Spirit grew me, and I pray He grew her as well. Because God, praise Him, is much much bigger than I have ever conceived.
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Well observed… and said, iMonk.
It grows hard to be patient of evangelicals whom I love and with whom I worship continually making the non-self-aware judgments of particular individuals — most often workmates, friends and family — who is saved and who is not. Our non-denominational church can be surprisingly denominational. 🙂
This is God’s majestic work to save, people. I know it’s probably a bit too pop-culture to quote Bono’s lyric from their recent album, but I like it: “Stop helping God across the road like a little old lady.” He has redeemed His creation. We personally and graciously benefit, and are called to help build for the kingdom, but it’s not all about us.
I’m not discounting evangelism and living a Jesus-centered life at all. But Spirit-infused evangelism is often not the same as evangelicalism. Sad.
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I’m an atheist. We don’t hate you for any of the reasons that you list. We don’t hate you at all. We view you with disdain because you routinely dismiss solid evidence, but more importantly you try to legislate morality to me based on what you think is true (not based on evidence, but faith). We have disdain for you because you make laws that restrict what we can and can’t do. We have disdain for you because a large majority of criminals in this country consider themselves believers, and yet you say that we(atheists) have no morality. Now, I’m going to go make a difference with inner city kids. Help them find a way out. For free. No agenda. I won’t talk to them about God.
Peace
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I would LOVE for you to write something for our Website, http://www.everystudent.com. It could be on any topic, provided it conveys what is true of God and/or what you experience in relating to him. Our site is in multiple languages, literally viewed by millions each year. It aims to respectfully cover questions about life and God, for those who might not yet know him.
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I’d like to point out, if I may, that atheists don’t hate your god, they do not believe in any god. It’s very difficult to hate what you don’t even believe exists, like Santa Claus, the easter bunny, or the tooth fairy. Who hates them? No, if there is any hate or dislike it’s because of how evangelicals behave and their attitudes about other people who are not like them.
Take the Westboro Baptist Church. That group went way over the top to get people to hate them.
If you went to a mental hospital and acted like you have mental problems, you might get admitted. In society there are no admission papers; if you act like a an idiot people will just make a mental note of it and use it against you. Sure they might work with you, or seem to respect you, but as soon as you ‘witness to them’ or talk about religion they are going to remember “oh yeah, one of those idiots” and walk away or react badly in some other manner. Perhaps we are not meant to tar everyone with the same brush, but that is human nature. You know, once a child molester, always a Catholic.
Now, on top of that, if we atheists don’t believe in god, we certainly don’t believe in satan, so warnings about evil just foster dislike and contempt. Warnings about not being godly sound like a 5 year old insisting that we have to put out milk and cookies for santa. You might get us to put them out, but inside we’re laughing at your naiveté as we humor you.
To truly be accepted by atheists, you will have to work harder to understand why they don’t trust you, nor expect you to do much that isn’t classified as annoying.
Just as you would criticize, mock, and laugh at someone who still believes in Osiris or Thor, there are those who feel you are in the same position and deserving of criticism, mockery, and laughter. When you can understand that truly, perhaps you will truly understand why it seems you are not well liked.
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My first reaction to this was, “Wow, I have been the worst stereotype of what I now fear.” (Quite an eye-opener.)
I have come from a place of judgement to a place of disallusionment, then onward to a place of utter humility and thankfulness.
Have I arrived? Hardly.
But I do believe we’ve given ourselves a bad rap: “I have seen the enemy and it is us.”
Occasionally I find myself repeating what I believe what bears repeating — and that is this: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Do I believe it?
Yes I do, unreservedly.
Do I live it? It is what I try to do each day.
But, sometimes I feel like I come up against a wall in relating to evangelical Christians (of which I am one). At times, I am amazed at the anger-bordering-on-contempt that we display toward one another.
At times I am dumbfounded by the realization that evangelical Christians don’t really seem to believe in transformation — we jump up and down when someone comes to know the Lord, but somehow grace seems to costly to give freely to one another because … because … perhaps we don’t really believe in transformation.
What do I believe now?
I believe we stand, sit, walk only by grace.
I have also learned to eschew, with effort at times, what I believe others think about me.
If we live what we believe, then we live for One and hopefully, prayerfully care for all.
Long-comment-short, I think we are as hard or harder on each other than those who don’t share our faith. I think sometimes they are probably fueled by what they don’t see — love.
My thoughts …
Still I am encouraged when I look at the divine example of love. He is my hope.
Jo-Anne
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I heard a Bible teacher say once “if you can love Christians you can love anybodyâ€. It took me years to come to terms with this for the many reasons you listed above. Bottom line is we are disliked for all the wrong reasons.
Case in point, one of our local bloggers going by the alias ‘Lionfish’ made this honest confession on a recent blog on how he enjoys his local Surf Club more than church. He is a megachurch refugee who joined a ‘liberal’ Lutheran church. He said “ The funny thing, in many ways I personally relate better to non-Christians – they tend to be better balanced and less judgmental than most Christians. My point with the Surf Club is that this community feels more natural than the Church.â€
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How is your condemnation of evangelicals not itself simple legalism?
Assume, for the sake of discussion, the very best sort of Christ-like behavior among evangelicals. Do you know they would be hated less? It seems un-knowable to me since we cannot be sure of the source of atheist hatred in any given case or in the aggregate. Therefore, it seems to me to be legitimate to call all Christians to righteousness while understanding our fallen nature, and that no, we are not Jesus.
On the much larger scale, is it not solely Faith, Gospel, and Grace that determines whose side we are on? Or is it really about our perfect behavior, or lack of it? So, if our behavior is not our ticket to heaven, than perhaps a bit more kindness towards evangelicals is called for?
The atheist has at least some excuse for their hate; after all, Christians can be jerks, and some of what appears to be justified is the unrepentant soul resisting the Lord. But what excuse do we who condemn the followers of Jesus have?
What will you say if some of the worst of the religious phonies, are in heaven and the most sincere of atheists are not, and Jesus answers their questioning with “I don’t know you”? If this is true, and Biblically, I think it is, then perhaps your priorities are askew?
Finally, let me use a good friend as a case study, briefly. He was mistreated by evangelicals in profound and infuriating ways, to the extent that if I saw those people today, rebuking would be far too mild for them. In fact, a punch in the nose might be quite appropriate. (Yes, it was that bad) Now, he had every right to be furious with them and every right to leave the church. He even had some excuse for anger at God. But what has happened to him in the 20 years since is actually much worse than what they did to him because now he walks alone. Even today, he is filled with bile and still speaks about all the evil he suffered with those horrible people. Yet I can see God still pulling him back, asking him to come home, and as he resists, more and more things happen in his life to teach him that the only answer lies outside himself. He still resists, locked in a cycle of hate and self-righteousness, only now his marriage teeters on the brink. Still, he will not humble himself before God and repent of his rejection of Him.
Why is so hard to accept that Christians are sometimes not good people? It should be self-evident; as plain and obvious as the blue sky, yet the enemy of souls so often uses that fact to condemn people to a much worse place than the church.
Let’s not use atheists’ opinions as our guides for Christian behavior. It is fruit of a poisoned well. Instead, let’s return to the source for our pattern and always remember that even if we were perfect, they would hate us.
Indeed, if we were perfect, they would kill us.
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Hmmm. So many places I might start on this. Maybe the most appropriate beginning would be to thank you for your candor, and acknowledge that non-evangelicals do often unfairly generalize and/or single your religion out.
Evangelicals seem to be most hated (a) where they hold power and influence, and (b)where they threaten to upset the pre-existing social order (as in Latin America). Growing up in north Texas, I experienced first-hand the effects of this gung-ho Protestant culture, which controlled the local school system and held the allegiance of the majority of the students in my schools. Had I grown up in Sri Lanka, perhaps I would feel a similar irritation towards Hinduism or Buddhism (depending on which side of the civil war I found myself on).
Many, perhaps most religions come with some compelling reason to hate them. Islam is an easy example. I am aware of the beautiful side of Islam, yet practically speaking, this is difficult to separate from the ugly side. It’s easy to be respectful when we meet Muslims, but what about when they demand infuence over our lives? (For example, what do you say when your daughter wants to convert to Islam, so she can marry a Muslim, and raise Muslim children?) Evangelicals come with a somewhat different set of characteristic vices, but the problem is similar.
The very premise of “evangelical” Protestantism is that there is basically one right way to live, and that other people should be loudly informed of this. (The Catholics agree with the first part, but generally wait for outsiders to come to them.) If you want to know why people, including Buddhists, are “difficult to evangelize,” remember that what you may see as the product of reason and revelation, others will greet as just one more fairly arbitrary belief system.
Buddhists FYI tend to assume most religions to be somewhat beneficial, to the extent that they teach ethics and compassion. Whether God exists, and if so how many and what kind, is kind of irrelevant, though there are Buddhas and bodhisattvas who receive worship. If you go to a Buddhist temple or dharma center, no one will likely care whether you self-identify as “Buddhist,” let alone what you believe about religion. (The Episcopalians are similar in this respect, by the way.)
If you come along and tell us that we ought to be following some other religion, based on reasoning that outsiders tend to regard as spurious, then of course our eyes glaze over. (If you want to know how it feels, then let me preach to you about why prasangika-madhyamaka is the highest tenet system.) And to the exent that you try to remake society in your image, then others are likely to resist this, and resent you. (I recognize that a certain amount of this is inevitable in any political system.)
Of course, sociologists like Rodney Stark tell us that people do not join religions because they decided that belief X is right, and then go seek out religion X. Rather, they look for a community that they think they could plausibly belong to–that it would be beneficial to belong to–and then believe whatever the group believes. (We leave religions for much the same reasons, having decided that the community is not for us.) Evangelical Christianity, unfortunately, is associated not only with Bush-era politics, but also scientific illiteracy and (forgive me) a kind of trailer-trash culture. Like the Nation of Islam, but for white people!
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I agree with Jared.
While its true the body of Christ needs to clean out all the ungodly teachings and stick to the scriptures. And Christians need to remove sin from their lives.
The gospel message is an affront to this world.
Is it any wonder that they don’t like those who remind them of their spiritually dead lives?
In the end it is Holy Spirit that leads a person to salvation. God’s work will be done, despite the church’s short comings.
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An outstanding assessment except for the glaring omission of any mention of Evangelicals’ unquestioning support for Israel and that nation’s every action.
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also know that many culture-warring Christians will say this is a surrender document and I should join in the hatred of those who sometimes hate us. Check with Jesus on that one.
That is a great observation/comment/rebuke
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Uh, in case anybody else doesn’t know yet, Jerry Falwell is dead. Apparently, this has left a gap of tremendous size in anti-Christian groups everywhere, as it used to be so easy to throw out the ‘knee-jerk’ reaction of ‘Robertson and Falwell’ whenever real discussion of faith needed to be shut-off.
Sorry, I know the above comment is on the ‘unspiritual’ side, but I really do get tired of shallow thinking Biblical illiterates getting so much traction from trashing a man, Falwell in particular, who had his faults but still managed to create such a strong work for God. And that is the real reason they hated him. Don’t believe it? Then look at how they now go after Rick Warren today.
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If nobody hates you, you’re doing it wrong.
If everybody hates you, you’re doing it wrong.
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One note on Buddhists: You might want to mention that you are not required to take a vow for life as a Buddhist monk, but can later “de-robe” (or whatever the term is) and rejoin society without being sanctioned. This gives them the advantage of being able to concentrate totally on their faith for a certain time and then raise families or whatever.
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I would like to second Andy’s post. I am often accused of having no moral compass because I do not adhere to Christianity. And yet, as the years go by and my children grow up straight and strong under the eye of my loving wife, and my business prospers because I work hard, I look at the hardships, the drugs, the divorces, my Christian friends have had to endure, and I wonder where their sanctimony comes from.
I agree there is much truth in the Bible, but there is much to be discarded as well, and the only guide I’ve found as to what to keep and what to discard is my personal conscience. I cherry pick, as we all do, but I don’t make the absurd claim to know the whole truth for all time for everyone, as Christians do.
Finally, I’d like to say that my distaste for evangelicals in particular rose when they linked themselves publicly to the Republican party. I waited in vain these last eight years for the Evangelical leaders to condemn torture, illegal war and the abrogation of our constitutional rights. I am no Democrat, but the downright lawlessness of the last administration made it impossible to vote otherwise.
The current administration has done very little to alleviate these ills, but I don’t know what else I can do about that.
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You identified likely reasons for this hatred you discuss. However you need to remember that most ‘rational’ Americans disregard Evangelicals because they boldly hold as fact what can only be described as hope (some would say fiction). Rationalism is at the heart of most non-believer’s temperaments. Many agnostics and atheists understand the complex nature of human spiritualism, but most simply see it as wish thinking. Frankly, the way Evangelicals approach the topic, I’m persuaded that assessment is correct. This kind of two dimensional reasoning (e.g., it says so in da book) doesn’t do much to suggest this branch of Christianity – or most orthodoxy. Thank God we have a brain and desire to see the humor in it all, as I’m sure God does.
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Very good thoughts. I think at times we expect too much of those who do not know Christ. After all, without the power of Christ, there is no power to live right. And we also tend to focus on certain sins more than others (generally the sins of others rather than our own).
But I also think we are misunderstood. But perhaps because we do not do a good job of communicating the message. Christianity is not for saints – it is for messed up sinners. Christ accepts any and all comers – no matter how messed up. And even those of us who have come are still works in progress. It’s all about grace!
Only problem I have is point 5. It really is all about relationship. Jesus is the way of salvation, the way of sanctification – and the closer we get to Him – the more we will look like Him. And to sinners Jesus (grace) looked very refreshing.
Thanks Brother!
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Andy, your post reminds of a scene from “The Simpsons”, when Spingfield’s citizens realize their city is about to be destroyed:
– people run screaming out of the church and across the street into Moe’s Tavern to get drunk;
– simultaneously, those in the tavern scream and run out across the street into the church to get saved.
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Phil Hoover hit it quickly, even though it was in your original article. One wonders if he read that part, but anyway…
Here’s what I would say: Paul’s assumption seems to be that Christians will be far more Christ-like than we tend to be. What I read in that verse is that the world which hates God will hate us inasmuch as we represent God. The big problem is that we rarely seem to represent God these days. More often we represent the Pharisees whose butts God kicked.
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You very nicely articulated why it is difficult to evangelize Buddhists. It appeals, because it makes the statement and moves on. Buddhists understand the impossibility of expressing the spiritual through language, as well as the need to try. We are difficult to evangelize because we know that the less we think, the more we know. We find the public Christian most often to be too noisy to attend to his personal spiritual relationship, too self-certain to know much about his religion and too fearful for himself to be one with his God.
And because many of us came to our own paths through a studied search for our way, we often have a better grasp of the Christian Gospel and its interpretations than those who are trying to explain it to us. We are mindful that we are always beginners. They present to us as adepts who have nothing more to learn. We know we will always be on the journey. We immediately recognize when someone never began or believes they have arrived. They love to make categories. We know that there are none and that they, too, are the Buddha. It is sad, and sadness does not inspire.
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I struggled with guilt for years for not doing the things ‘real Christians’ did – you know, saying “Praise God” at every positive comment, handing out tracks in the red-light district, inviting all my friends and acquaintances to church at least once. I was embarassed to be marked as a religious nut. When I thought about inviting friends to our AG church, all I could think about was ‘what if they start falling over in the prayer line up front’ – how do I explain that? I wasn’t completely sure about the practice myself, so how could I explain and defend it to a non-believer? And Pat Robertson talking about judgment on America?
I kept dreading having to face Jesus some day not having acknowledged him before all men – and you know where you end up when that happens…
The last few years I’ve come to understand what you’re talking about, Michael. We, especially the most publicly visible part of us, really can be bizarre, obnoxious, delusional, and downright nasty. As was remarked above, being harassed for being a jerk is not persecution, it’s reaping what you sow.
After years of being pretty private about my faith, and long practice in the habits created, I now need to figure out what really is cowardice in sharing my faith and what is wisdom in not discrediting the gospel.
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Language has been sullied. What do we mean by “evangelical”? What do we mean by “Christian,” anymore?
A lot of people you include as evangelicals, I wouldn’t, but you allude to the real distinction in this and your recent CSM article: biblical authroity and biblical doctrine. So-called evangelicals have abandoned the Bible, even as they affirm its inerrancy.
As John MacArthur has written, “The evangelical church isn’t very evangelical anymore.”
Sad.
Doc
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iMonk – Great stuff…..I think I would add only that there is a growing group of folks out there who look at the “reds” and the “blues” on the US political map and equate the “reds” with the Mormons and the Bible Belt. They are one and the same in their minds. They think (generally) that if there was a way to marginalize the “Christian sub-culture” represented by the red on the map, we could get a lot more done and be much more “progressive” like Western Europe.
One doesn’t have to be an intellectual to hold this view……..he/she just has to watch the news a little bit and hear a few soundbites from the vehemently anti-Christian voices that are emerging.
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I would like to know where you got your sources about Christians being the most unliked people group.
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From the point of view of this atheist, I don’t like evangelical Christians because every experience with them is them being dishonest. They constantly announce that they are victims if they aren’t allowed to force their religious rules and interpretations on the rest of the country. They abuse people in the name of their god by harassing people for not following their interpretation of Christianity. They are obnoxious salesmen – leaving tracks where they don’t belong, such as on their desk when they are the boss, or bother you at work during working hours because you admitted you are an atheist, and that means you must be wanting a new religion.
Let’s face it. Your evangelical leaders are horrifying. They dismiss science and trumpet their favorite god-is-punishing-us-for-doing-something fantasy as the reason for catastrophes instead of publicly setting up help for the victims or even showing the least bit of concern. Their drawing power is based on sales spiels and gaudy shows of materialism and really bad make up.
Native American indian leaders had the right way to lead – they did it by example. You can’t sell someone into redemption, you must demonstrate it. So far, I’ve never seen any sign of holiness – of wisdom or caring. Your religion doesn’t appear to be about doing what helps the community, but instead, what will force everyone to pretend you are the ones who know the answers and can make the rules. That’s dysfunctional and healthy people avoid dysfunctional people.
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Jared: “But if someone is seeking God, then His Grace and the Holy Spirit are more than enough to overcome the imperfections of the Church.”
But how high do you want to make the hurdles? How imperfect a Church are you willing to countenance on the grounds that God’s grace will overcome your imperfections? Shouldn’t we at least be trying to make God’s work easier by being honest about our flaws and honestly trying to correct them? While your statement is no doubt correct, there is a real danger of using this sentiment to excuse oneself and one’s community from the work necessary to grow in God.
“And even if all the ‘imperfections’ with the church were removed, the world would still despise Christians because of the Gospel.”
The world despises anyone who teaches or believes that the world alone cannot provide fulfillment. The world despises not just Christians, but anyone who claims to lead people to salvation through non-market mechanisms. Religion is general despised by the world because it doesn’t like the competition. Religion is (or should be) bad for business. Simple as that. Of course, that doesn’t relieve us, whatever our religion (or lack thereof) from trying to correct, or at least improve, our imperfections. Yes, the world will despise us, but let’s not give them legitimate cause, if we can help it.
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Some of the arguments I read on this post, if followed, would simply mean that no one could critique or seek to analyze or to understand, for the very process of naming the problem would prove that the brother/sister is not spiritual. If they were spiritual, they, uhm, would have prayed about it.
I would suggest that St. Paul is a good example of analytical thinking who was not the least bit afraid to name the problem in order that it could be solved. His many epistles include sometimes scathing critiques. Once in a while they were not followed by a call to restoration, but for a call to throw the bums out, see 1 Corinthians and Galatians!
The prophetic sermon in both the Old Testament and New Testament has been quite overused in the USA. We are, indeed, too quick to critique, to carp, and to bewail, then to divide, to split, and to leave. So, we have too many denominations. Nevertheless, that is not what is going on in this post. iMonk has posted a very potent mea culpa, which, in prophetic fashion, encompasses Christianity in the USA, and not simply evangelical Christianity. We, too, have some of the people named by iMonk.
So, I would commend that we all re-read what has been posted, put on our sackcloth and ashes, and use this Great Lent to meditate on all our many sins, of ommission and commission.
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Mr. Spencer,
You will know the tree by its fruit. Judging by the comments here posted, which seem in general to express the feeling that you have finally justified their abandoning the church, your article is not quite right. For abandoning the assembly is not endorsed by Scripture, and understanding your article to be an endorsement of that decision is prima facie evidence that there are some problems with it.
I am a Roman Catholic by conviction, formerly evangelical, and I well-recognize your characterization of evangelicalism’s alleged faults, for I formerly subscribed to your characterizations wholeheartedly. Indeed all your observations can be backed up with substantial evidence, and in my life experience they contributed to my searching for a more complete understanding of the gospel which seemed to me to be at the root of them. More on that later.
Nevertheless I also struggled with moral dilemmas for a time which also contributed to my having a jaundiced view of evangelicalism. Perhaps evangelicals do not always express their desire to be holy and live in a manner pleasing to God in a way that is entirely sophisticated. This is irritating and even infuriating to the sinner and a great excuse for him to trash evangelicals and Christianity. Evangelicals should not receive the blame when this occurs, but they often do.
Charity begins at home. If someone thinks that a certain song, in mocking the reality of family life, is less than edifying, why should he be denounced as a killjoy rather than lovingly accepted as someone who has good intentions?
There is a tension in your article which you do not and cannot resolve, since it is rooted in your theology. In conformity with your beliefs you state that ‘unregenerate persons are at enmity with God by nature.’ This contradicts every kind and indulgent word about the unregenerate that you otherwise have written in the article in which you endeavor to outdo yourself in praising their superior humanity and wisdom in comparison to evangelicals. This tension is an inevitable result of what occurs when intelligence encounters the world and discovers that human reality does not conform to the false anthropological dichotomy which you have accepted as being an article of Reformed faith.
Since a discourse on Catholic anthropology and soteriology would be far too long for a blog post, and since the questions arising from an abandonment of the Reformed position vis a vis anthrophology and soteriology all deserve thorough answers, I will end here. But if anyone is interested in answers to the questions of what is the proper biblical view of anthropology and soteriology, he can study the fathers and doctors of the Church, and Church teaching through the ages. A reading of the Catholic catechism will start him off in the right direction. You know–that famous anti-Christ church.
Jan
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What many fail to grasp, but what our author notes accurately, is that it is NOT hatred of God, Christ, the Bible or Christianity overall that drives this sense of antagonism.
But if I may share an observation from my own experience…
As my handle implies I am gay. I am also a Christian (a fact that admittedly many would dispute).
In the LGBT community there is a strong, conditioned hatred of Christianity, and to a certain extent other religions as well. This has been caused by the incredible amount of hatred that LGBT people have received from Christians, especially those who very selectively quote passages from the Bible to denounce gays while ignoring other passages that would possibly inconvenience themselves. This all, by the way, frequently results in my getting dragged into fierce arguments for believing in Christianity, even the liberal denomination I belong to.
This is becoming a society-wide phenomenon. Evangelical Christianity has, especially in recent decades, taken a very belligerent stance towards society as whole. Almost everything coming from the mouths of the more visible Evangelical figures is a denunciation of somebody or something.
When the public face of a religious movement constantly expresses negative views of society, why should they expect society in turn to have a positive view of them? Jesus got angry sometimes, for example with the moneychangers at the Temple. But He didn’t go around angry ALL the time, denouncing everyone He came across!
But in America today we have a sort “Angry Evangelical Christianity” that appears to regard everyone that disagrees with them (including Catholics and liberal Protestants) as active devil worshipers. Unfortunately one fire-breathing preacher can do more damage to Christianity’s public image than thousands of sweet little old lady Sunday School teachers can ever make up for.
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I circulate in a fandom that’s gay-heavy. I’ve gotten a lot of mileage out of the rhetorical question “Who died and made Fred Phelps THE media spokesman for all American Christians?” and stressing that every group has their high-profile jerks and lunatic fringes. (As most everybody in that specific fandom has horror stories of lunatic-fringe fanboys, I can usually get a resonance.)
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Statistically, 7 of every 10 people I encounter as I go about my day are Christians. Experientially, 5 of every 10 people I encounter are jerks. Something doesn’t add up.
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Theo – “The root of this problem is a lack of righteousness. Period.”
That’s all well and good to say, but without a proper and holy understanding of righteousness, how can any person be expected to walk and live in it?
Every church, every denomination, every homegroup faces the same challenge – they become exclusive, offering isolation from the rest of society. This, in and of itself, is contrary to scripture – Be in the world, not of it. The simplest way to do this is quite simply do what Jesus commanded – Love your neighbor as yourself. How can we honestly love those around us if we force them to abide by doctrinal standards we ourselves do not fully comprehend?
I was taught to evangelize like most Christians – repentance, salvation, indoctrination. We offer “unsaved” people no recourse but to subscribe to a belief system that is filled with ambiguity and dogma, even if it’s because of good intentions and for their best interest. Instead, we cloud their understanding, muddied their perspective. This is why I know longer “evangelize.” I’m not afraid to share Christ with someone, but should I see some who needs encouragement or moral guidance or even a personal intervention, my first words are not “Repent and be saved.” They’re not even “accept Jesus.” I don’t want someone to accept Jesus because they think or because I’ve led them to believe that doing so makes the world a better place to live, that problems disappear! Believing in Jesus and having a relationship with him takes a lot work and brings alot of heartache and struggle. Just like my marriage to my wife and raising my two kids. We hurt others and often feel hurt when they won’t bend to our wishes, hopes, or demands. That’s life with Jesus. And while I strive to live a complete life with him, I know the best thing I can do is try to love everyone around by with the same passion, compassion, and humility that he shows me. And that has made all the difference. No unattainable standards, no ambiguous morallity, no deceptive dogma.
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The world would still despise Christians because of the Gospel?
Honeychile, if I’d been drinking milk it would have come out my nose when reading that one! Despised? BECAUSE OF the Gospel?
You make me revert to a question that now and then bedevils me, is evangelical “christianity” propaganda or is it something else? Many Evangelicals i meet feel the world hates them, when it’s my experience that most of the world doesn’t even consider them unless faced with one who thinks s/he knows what’s best for everybody. Sort of like being a Son of the Old South who thinks the Yankees hate Southerners, whilst the fact is, most Yankees don’t even think about southerners from one Christmas to the next.
It is impossible for me to imagine that any of my atheist friends would despise me when I brag on the Gospels and tell them the Olde Testament describes the evil man does, while the New Testament shows us how to be the best we can be.
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In getting to know myself over the years, I’ve found that I can be a relentless bastard no matter how many times I read through Divine Conspiracy and commit myself to being more Christ-like. I could hide it when I was in youth ministry, but being deployed and around people all the time—I’ve found ways to hide it, but the closest people to me, know the real me—and I am a broken man with no excuses.
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*Jared said* “Christ did not want to build the perfect church – if He wanted that then he would not have built it on man (Peter).”
Jared’s right insofar as the church is not perfect, because saved though a person might be justification/sanctification does NOT equal perfection. We’re all fallen, fallible, and sinful.
However, Christ most certainly did not build His church on a man (Peter).
Matthew 15:16-18
He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Jesus said, “thou art Peter,(Gr. – “petros” a small stone, or even pebble) and upon this rock (Gr. – “petra” a foundation stone or a boulder) I will build my church…”
Peter (like all of us) a small, unremarkable, insignificant (in the grand scheme of things) stone or pebble, certainly not suitable to build anything upon.
Peter’s confession that Jesus was “the Christ, the Son of the Living God” is the “petra” upon which He would build His church. Besides being the head of the church (Ephesians 5:23), remember that He’s also the “chief cornerstone” and the foundation of the church (Psalm 118:22; Acts 4:11-12; 1 Corinthians 3:11)
To iMonk: Outstanding article. First, let me say that I never quite understood how the term “evangelical” got hi-jacked by one particular sub-group; I mean, according to the “great commission” from Matthew 28, isn’t every Christian evangelical/and evangelist? When I was in the Marines, regardless of your particular MOS (cook, motor pool, supply, artillery, infantry) EVERY Marine was a rifleman first.
I am a Christian by God’s great grace and mercy, a Baptist by persuasion. When I say Baptist, of course most people instantly lump me in with the Moral Majority, Pat Robertson, hateful “separated” “fundamentalists” – another hi-jacked term, and so on. But nothing could be further from the truth. I am a Baptist because I believe in the fact that the Bible is literally true and God is always right, not because I have a cape with a big ol’ “B” on it and fly around trying to save the world from Hell. I daily aspire to be conformed to the image of Christ through humility – I think if we can get that one under control, the rest will fall into place. The next most important thing – hiding God’s Word in your heart, as King David said. If we get it in there, way down deep, then it will cleanse us, change us, and flow forth in our lives. Notice I said our lives, not our words. I believe that if people can’t tell that you’re a Christian without you ever announcing it verbally, then you’ve failed. Jesus said be salt and light. Light shines, so people should see something before they hear anything. Then our testimony and verbal witness will have legitimacy. We’ve got to be out to win relationships, not debates, arguments, or elections.
Sorry this is so long. I just found your blog through and email of an email of an email….
I really dig it.
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Preaching the truth is a lot easier than living it. Even sincere devoted people fail all the time; but that’s no excuse to avoid doing better.
Nice post, explains the aversion to red envelopes.
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When it comes to church architecture, give me Polish Cathedral Style any day.
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Greetings InternetMonk,
I was one of many that linked to your Blog from Drudge. I also listened to 2 of your most recent podcasts. And I returned today and have read this post.
Here are my thoughts for what they are worth. As a former rabid Atheist, I disliked Christians because I saw them as ignorant, intolerant and absurdly convinced that they had the Truth. The only evidence for this was TV and the people I came in contact with. Also, many of my College Professors found them easy targets and I enjoyed laughing at these poor deluded Souls. But I was empty if the truth be told. However, I was won over to the other side , in the San Francisco Bay area because I personally witnessed the love amongst Christians and I had had enough of the self righteousness of New Agers and fellow Freethinkers to know they were a bunch of lost souls. Your quote below can easily work with nonbelievers in the Berkenstock Bay Area…
Many unbelievers are bizarrely shallow and legalistic about minute matters. We are frequently psychologically unsound, psychiatrically medicated, filled with bitterness and anger, tormented by conflicts and, frankly, unpleasant to have around.
So personally, I find alot of your insights a wash. As the only difference between the 2 groups that I see is that the Christian is aware that he needs a Savior outside himself. He is no longer Autonomous. Since you seem to speak for all of Evangelicals I wonder if your experiences have something to do with regional Christianity in the South. If you were to give a survey here in Northern California and ask ” Is the South ruled by a bunch of hicks?” I would argue that the percentage would be really high that it is…regardless of the truth of the answer ( I would not agree by the way, but if we are giving surveys weight, then the results are just as valid..although misleading ).I am afraid that as a result of many years of secular education, any graduate now in the system has been thoroughly indoctrinated that truth is maleable if not totally irrelevant anymore.
HOWEVER, I agree with many of your points. But if you lived amongst the left winging, Berkeley types like I did for 15 years…then hanging out with some of these Evangelical Pharisees is alright by me.
I am a half Full kinda guy. You and I could ( I am 52 like you ) easily have a chat at a cafe and tell all the tales of Evangelical corruption, Vice, Adultery etc etc etc. that we have seen for ourselves. So what? What else is new. There was a guy in the Corinthian Church having an affair with his mother? I don’t think the first century Church was as Ideal as many Church Primitivists make them out to be.
But all in all, I find your Blog thought provoking , challenging and very important. Keep up the good work. :v)
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“The message here isn’t just that we are humorless or Puritanical. The message is that being human or being real is somehow evil.”
Thanks, Michael,for reposting your frank and penetrating insights. I think the inability to deal properly with our humanity and the rather neurotic way we look at “sanctification” in our lives (usually humorless and without grace), may be the biggest Achilles heel of evangelicals.
We are trying so hard to LOOK sincere and at the same time fail miserably when it comes to pursuing a Christlike lifestyle that is both freeing and gracious.
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“a message that no one wants to hear”
Annoyance and hypocrisy are undesirable, no matter what their persuasion might be, theological or otherwise. But this is not why those uncommmitted to the Christian religion don’t like you guys.
We don’t like the veneer of smug certainty when what you’ve got, at best, is an inherited, amalgamated guess about our collective origins and destinies. If Christianists would admit that belief doesn’t equal truth, and that they are likely to be as wrong as the other faiths they implicitly denigrate, then perhaps the rest of the world might give them respect.
If Christianists would realize the endless ability of humans to fill empty signifiers with meaning from their own culturally conditioned minds, to succumb to the power of suggestion, to ignore any evidence that would suggest they may not have the best perspective on Truth, received as it is through countless mediating elements, then perhaps the rest of us could turn to you and say: “Now, how can you aid us in correcting our current, actual ills?” Certainly those from the faith traditions have some wisdom and comfort to bring–this would be a welcome addition to the conversation, and indeed these people have aided us greatly in the past. But as it stands, Christians have poisoned that well with a certitude that disables them from approaching reality and its inhabitants.
Let’s be clear: it’s not that the message is intolerable (I assume you mean the humanist ethics espoused in, say, the Beatitudes–and in many other wisdom traditions); it’s that belief (another sticky term) without sufficient evidence is far from noble. This assault on the nascent minds is the greatest crime perpetuated by the faith industries–worse even than the innumerable lives lost in the name of God.
With all due respect, it’s sad to see otherwise mature, intelligent adults succumbing to the allure of faith. It’s sad, and from an outside perspective, the behavior of the faith-bound appears like mental instability–seriously. It looks like a crippling psychological sickness.
We aren’t repelled by your hypocrisy and your other all-too-human traits. We are drawn, instead, to reality and repelled by the mindset of the faith-bound which is ever at odds with apprehending and engaging the actual.
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“5. We talk about God in ways that are too familiar and make people uncomfortable.”
I would add:
5a. We talk about God in ways that are unfamiliar and leave people wondering what we mean.
Examples:
-Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?
-I’m a born-again Christian.
-Have you been washed in the blood?
-We have a burden for the lost!
Huh?
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A good word Michael. Thank you.
This re-post reminds me of a few things:
1) Perspicuity: I must watch closely who I appear to be to others and so not shame the name of Christ. Let the world see our good works and rejoice.
2) Christ-centeredness: when I speak to a watching world (verbally or behaviorally), I attempt to lift up Jesus above all, especially myself, and point to His perfection and my need of the Physician’s touch; even regenerate, I am sick, and Jesus heals. People will understand the applicability of this genuineness.
3) Repentance: the more I know who I am, the more I see who He is, the more I follow Isaiah and eat the dirt before the throne. But, and it’s a big but, I then get up, dust myself off, and rejoice at this great salvation. It is this joy that will draw the greatest numbers to my side to see what gives me hope. But to get to the joy, I should first see the sorrow born on the cross and my own lingering sin. Nothing is holy about merely happy (I remember the warning of the Sermon on the Mount).
4) No Fear: In reading your post, Michael, I’m finally reminded of John Piper’s words after 9/11 when he was speaking with his wife regarding a scheduled ministry trip to England. She asked him if he was still going, and he replied (paraphrase), “I’m a calvinist! Of course I’m going! I am invincible until God is finished with me.” It is God who saves using broken and spilled out vessels who aren’t nearly broken or spilled out enough. But that’s why it’s called grace, eh?
Blessings. Peace.
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“Fear-mongering liberals often talk about the Bush administration as populated by fundamentalist Christian Taliban poised to bring about a Christian theocracy. I wonder if they have noticed that President Bush- an evangelical right down to his boots- is practicing religious tolerance over the loud objections of evangelical leaders like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell?” Don’t mistake George Bush as the architect behind any Dominionist designs on our country. In this, like so many other things, the man was largely a figure head who placed in power a large number of subordinates who were not so tolerant and benign. For example google “Monica Goodling Regent University Justice Department” for just one example of how the Bush administration acted to inject a Dominionist strain into a department key to the execution of the laws of this country. And controlling the law, what gets enforced, what gets ignored, who is prosecuted is a very powerful way of molding the country to follow a certain direction should that be your goal. Christian Taliban is certainly hyperbolic, but the actions of this administration have not been consistent with the First Amendment. And this is why some of us fear you Christians. I could go on, but you’ll probably not allow this post so I’m not sure if I’m wasting my time.
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Wow, this is solid. Thanks for reposting. How I’ve been unaware of your blog for so long I don’t know. I’m subscribing right now.
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Your blog post on the collapse of Evangelical Christianity made it to the CSMonitor online oped section so I followed the backlink here.
I can really appreciate the honesty in this post and would like to present a personal account of why I have come to be extremely angry and more than a little upset with the vast majority of Christian denominations and churches.
This is not an attack, but it is an angry diatribe. I was just as guilty in most senses as the people you describe in your observations.
See yourself in it or not, I just appreciate a forum to be heard on and would welcome the chance for dialog.
I grew up Catholic, dismissed it in eighth grade is irrelevant to my life (it truly was) and then fell for the trap of a sense of community at the youth group of an Evangelical Church.
I call it a trap because I lived in a house as part of a “family” that was really a group of people I couldn’t trust. My family was so dysfunctional that none of us kids could trust an enabling mom and a verbally abusive father and tormented each other as a way of dealing with the abuse.
I was desperate for a sense of belonging and affirmation that I thought I would find in the youth group. Unfortunately, there were two problems that made that unworkable.
The first is that someone who’s that desperate and needy gets the same cold shoulder – sometimes even colder – from other Christians in most cases. They don’t know how to cope, don’t want to in the first place so you get gently routed to the edge and politely ignored by most other attendees. Hey, Jesus solves all your problems and makes you a better person right away, right?
My second problem is that I was and am gay. This was long before Exodus or any other form of church sponsored response was formulated and I fell into that class of “stubborn problem” people that pastors, elders and others avoided because they had no answer.
As I became more open about that and family related issues, I was even more marginalized in the youth group. Having grown up in the Midwest, I was indoctrinated by my family, the larger community and the church to believe I was inherently defective and disposable.
Over time, I drifted in and out of a variety of churches and ministries. I kept seesawing between being feeling alienated and guilty because of my sexuality and spending long periods isolating and having anonymous encounters with other gay men.
I can definitely identify with Ted Haggard’s situation in more than one way. I struggled with the inherent conflict between my sexual orientation and my faith, the above behavior and had to do it alone.
The only difference was at the last church I attended. It was a “Fellowship Bible Church”. For those of you not familiar, that was a movement that sprang from Dallas Theolgical Seminary for founding churches with a focus on grace and authenticity about personal struggles. The founding pastor was an excellent model of both.
While there, I also benefited a great deal from a sort of ersatz friendship with the counseling pastor. By ersatz, I mean that he was far more a mentor than a counselor but still setting some counselor style boundaries. Regardless, for the first time, I felt like I was making some progress in a sense of self respect and appreciation for my own judgment.
So why did I leave? It’s because of a handful of issues that you captured in the blog posting I’m commenting on, Although they loved to hear it because it made them feel good, most attendees were just as unwilling to present anything other than a perfect front. Most were absolutely clueless with how self obsessed and bigoted they were.
At a dinner hosted by a couple promoting small groups, I got treated to some commiseration between two couples about how awful California was with all those bizarre gays. They even made a hobby of driving to gay areas and just sitting in their car watching and making fun of them. Note that one of the couples were the ones who organized the gathering.
It was at that Church that I was introduced to an Exodus ministry in Denver – also very grace focused. Unfortunately, the message there was just as painful. We were “broken people” who had to find resolution with God and our sexuality.
Just what that resolution was wasn’t specified. They were emphatic that it wasn’t a group therapy aimed at turning me straight but they also refused to say what the goal was.
With that kind of message being hammered home and no resolution in sight, I ended up suicidally depressed. Even without meaning to, Evangelicals by their very actions teach revulsion and hatred of anything homosexual.
Eventually, I came to believe that the suicidal depression was because I really was gay – not broken. I couldn’t continue in the Church and live that out, so I left.
They teach that because that’s really how they feel. Christians talk about how much they’re hated by non-Christians but refuse to take the log out of their own eye.
Those attempting to impose their world view and ethos through legal means is nothing short of Pharisaical. Those who do this while claiming to be Christians are anything but. Instead of getting out of their comfort zones and welcoming relationship with the very people they see as sinful (like Jesus), they are drawing thick, black circles of exclusion and telling us that our behavior is the only thing they care about.
Guess who did that in Jesus’ day? Guess who he spent the largest amount of time being publicly critical of? People like them – the Pharisees.
Jesus was publicly critical for a reason. He was trying as hard as he could to discredit that mindset so he could finally get them to understand that welcoming, loving actions were the essence of what he was teaching and THAT was what God wanted.
The bizarre thing to non-Christians is that most of you are so clueless. You’ve managed to convince most of us that, at best, you want to dominate us and you’re totally indifferent to our well being. At worst, you actually do hate us.
When was the last time YOU (any of you) actually visited someone in prison? When was the last time YOU took care of a non-christian who was sick? When was the last time any of YOU invited an abortion doctor, prostitute or homosexual over for dinner?
Most of you won’t even get out of your comfort zone enough to actually evangelize. Oh – and God forbid that one of you would be willing to admit to your own problems!
Is the rate of divorce for Evangelicals still higher than the overall average? The counseling pastor once told me that the incidence and severity of disfunctionality in families was just has high in the church as out.
Interestingly enough, the only people I ever heard publicly admitting that their lives weren’t perfect were the counseling pastor and the founding pastor at the last church.
Am I sounding angry? I believe I have reason. Do I hate you with too broad a brush stroke? Yeah, I have to admit I do as a gay man these days.
But I’m far from alone. I’m also far from alone in seeing many Christians as followers of the hypocritical Pharisees rather than the guy you name yourselves after.
You want cultural relevance? You want us to stop angry with you and hating you? Stop trying to run our lives. Start loving us where we are by what you DO rather than just mouthing the words. Just like with Jesus, we’ll know you don’t approve – that’s a given. But that didn’t stop him from eating meals with us sinners – nor should it stop you.
Finally, stop hiding your own problems from each other and us. It’s painfully obvious you ALL have them. How can you expect us to trust you when you’re so dishonest even with each other?
I guarantee you that if your church unanimously starts doing this you’ll stand out immediately. In fact, you’ll probably get far more media attention than you want.
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I like what Dan Kimball said in regards to his book about this topic:
“It will be interesting to see the response to They Like Jesus but not the Church, as I imagine some church leaders won’t be too happy about how people view the church or how I agree with a lot that is said about the church. I don’t blame them for how many outside the church see us. But there is great hope, if we only realize that we have not been to Jesus-like in many situations or realize how we hide in the Christian bubble and get so entrenched in the strange sub-culture that most people don’t get to meet us and build trust in us.”
http://www.dankimball.com/vintage_faith/2007/02/they_like_jesus.html
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First off, I’m an atheist, but I don’t consider myself an ‘anti-religionist’ in any sense.
I just wanted to add to the mix my own thoughts on why people seem to dislike evangelicals. For me, I never feel like I have a problem with the fact that a lot of what they do is directed outward, rather my problem is with WHAT they’re directing outward.
Here at my evil liberal university, we actually had to read the synoptic gospels in a Western Civ class. Even as an atheist I was very impressed with Jesus. What jumped out at me most about him was his style of outreach. Maybe I’m off-base on this, but seemed to me that he INTENTIONALLY sought out the dregs of society…the sinners, the poor, the sick and the wretched. I don’t remember feeling like he sought them out to convert them or to condemn them, either. He seemed purely interested in helping them for the sake of helping them.
I guess what I’m getting at is, it seems like when I come into public contact with someone evangelizing, it seems like what they’re directing outward is more of a message of warning or condemnation or what’s wrong with myself or society. I would love to see more evangelicals directing outward things that Jesus actually modeled for them. Reaching out to the wretched and helping them for the sake of helping them, rather than simply telling them they are wretched and need to be like they (the evangelists) are. Just my two cents. Good post. Thank you.
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Thank you for posting this.
So much I have see just like this, both as an Evangelical and as a Catholic.
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I very much liked what you wrote until I got to one of your closing paragraphs which seemed at odds with your message.
“Certainly, unregenerate persons are at enmity with God by nature.”
This type of spiritual arrogance is why evangelical christians are disliked by us unregenerate persons.
Christians, evangelical or otherwise, are not disliked for their beliefs. They are disliked for their behaviors.
Peace,
Paul
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As the late pastor Adrian Rogers said; “Hypocrites in the Church, do tell!” Of course there are hypocrites in the church. There are false teachers, sinners of all shape and size, etc… In the end only God and the angels will be able to tell the difference between the wheat and the tares. Blaming the church because it contains false teachers, hypocrites, and tares is unbiblical thinking. Those who judge the message of the cross because the churches have sinners in them do so at their own peril. Dr. George Sweeting taught me many years ago that I am not responsible for the soil, God is. My job is to toss seed. The Good seed that is the Gospel. Sometimes the seed lands on rocky soil, or it actually sprouts a bit is choked by weeds or burned by the sun. Then again, God may allow it to take root. Blessings.
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I understand why they don’t like us. The truth is that most days I don’t like us. I don’t like our legalistic, self-righteous, condemning, nature that keeps us locked inside ourselves; scared to open up and be vulnerable with what should be our supportive family in Christ.
I used to play in a band comprised of Christians but our focus was playing in bars (the goal not to evangelize from the stage, but just to portray Christ by loving people.) I felt, and still feel, freer to be myself in a good bar than at church.
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Hey man, i appreciate your insight. The truth is that Jesus always spoke the truth (which sometimes was hated) but He did it in love not in defense of God. God didn’t need defending. WHat you highlighted, and accurately so in many cases, is our motives for speaking the truth. The people we scorn now a days are the people Jesus showed extreme love and forgiveness to while at the same time coming across harsh to the ‘righteous pious’ ones.
All that being said I am striving to let my motivation be love, not righteousness, defending, or even truth but love. B/C while the bible does say that you will be hated and endure suffering it doesn’t say that will happen 100% of the time but it does say that kindness leads to repentance. So what if instead of pushing our agenda we simply pushed kindness out of love and see what happens. The disciples and other New Testament leaders took this route and turned the world upside down with out ever comprising the message of Christ.
Thanks for you thoughts
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Jared,
Good points, and yet I think the main thrust of iMonk’s essay was this:
While the world may hate the gospel, don’t use that as an excuse to be a sinful jerk to other people.
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On the mark as usual, Michael. And still true in 2009. If evangelicals were questioned or hated (though I think true hatred is rare) only for adherence to the gospel and Jesus’ radical call to love and sacrifice, that would be great. Sometimes evangelicals are despised for that, but not usually.
Usually I find evangelicals seriously questioned and even despised for doing things that aren’t the gospel. In a strange way that gives me hope because it shows that many people really do have some fairly accurate idea of what being a Christian is supposed to look like. One example of this is the newspaper column at this link and the comments on it. The subject of the column is an evangelical pastor.
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Forgive me for reposting–I put this on a lower thread (where it is still awaiting moderation), but felt it fit the conversation here better. feel free to remove the other copy from your moderation queue.
You are the first (and last?) christian blog that has been added to my RSS feeds. We don’t agree on everything, but if I’d encountered a minister like you in my teens, I might have followed up on what I at one time devoutly believed was a Call to Ministry (until i was pointed to I Corinthians and assured that it was a False Vocation planted by Satan).
I am what you might be called a “convinceable agnosticâ€. While I try to live my life as best I can in reflection of Jesus as depicted in the gospels (and fall short much of the time), the rules of “salvation†as explained to me by evangelicals, etc. seem arbitrary, sadistic, and simply don’t make rational sense. I’ve no use for the radicals of either the PZ Myers Wafer Crucifixion crowd or the people who shunned me and other intelligent, creative young people out of the church as a teen by behaving far more like Pharisees and Saducees then anything else.
I’ll spare the gory details, but in a nutshell, I couldn’t get adequate (to an angry 15 year old geek girl) answers to the following questions:
a: Why is homosexuality considered a greater abomination in modern society than eating shellfish?
b: Why were we sure the world was going to end before the year 2000 even though Christianity had a centuries-long tradition of Rapture Predications, all of which turned out to be wrong? (and for that matter, why couldn’t I find a clear reference to the rapture in the bible?)
c: Why were the contents of our Bible decided by Emperor Constantine and a bunch of squabbling men in Nicea 1500 years ago?
d: Why was my youth minister fired for saying “Creator God†instead of “heavenly father†when she led prayers?
e: If we can “name it and claim itâ€, why do Good Things and Bad Things seem to be randomly distributed amongst honorable christians, hypocritical churchgoers, and nonbelievers?
Alas, everyone in youth group (after the aforementioned pastor got canned) was too busy gossiping about the sexual depravities that took place at the competing brand’s (er, denomination’s) Youth Camp and explaining the “lay hands on the engine manifold†school of car repair to engage in such theologically rigorous questions. The final straw of churchgoing came the year I did an “in-depth†bible study class the same year as I took a great books course in college that covered the bible, and figured out that my professor actually knew the bible’s history and contents better than my pastor did.
I wandered through other faith traditions for most of the next decade, before settling into my current position of honest agnosticism, realizing that George Carlin made a more coherent case for Atheism than most pastors I knew had made for the Resurrection. I live an ethical life by most philosophical and christian standards, we “tithe†10% of our income to charities we care about (ranging from a local church soup kitchen to No on Prop 8), and I know that most of you are going to be praying for me to be born again tonight.
I’ll be honest though–if I find out that all that the “biblical literalists†say is true, and that there is a God that arbitrarily has condemned 4/5ths of the planet to damnation because they weren’t lucky enough to have been heterosexuals born in the US or Western Europe after 500AD or successfully converted by someone from that group, who speaks of universal love after committing multiple genocides in the Old Testament, I will take my chances outside the Pearly Gates, thank you.
That said, as an outsider I do see the Church changing, and would be open to returning if there was a place for me and those like me. For those reasons, I lurk here, and I listen. But please know that at least some of us who have left are not self-centered or evil. We’re the same as you–looking for a community that will accept us as we are and who will help us become better servants of our fellow men, and who look up from our books to stare into the sky at night and ask…why?
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It is funny to me that we are quick to take hold of verses that make it look like people hate us because they hate God or the Gospel while ignoring verses about God giving favor to us among men.
We will do almost anything to avoid seriously considering critisism..
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Jared, sorry to be blunt, but you are wrong. The World doesn’t despise Christians. The World despises hypocrites. Be true and you will have respect.
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WOw! I have only just started reading your postings here– very encouraged by your insight. Thanks
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Why am I angry with evangelicals?
Because I grew up with them. Because they raised me in ignorance and fear. Because I spent my childhood terrified, feeling guilty, wanting to die or be tortured for Jesus to prove my earnestness, dreaming of the apocalypse and my school friends burning in hell.
And because now that I am grown, and have learned, healed and live an ethically superior life without guilt — they tell me that I am hiding from God like a thief from the police, they tell me that my education and research is meaningless, and pretend that they understand evolution better than I do — even though I teach about Miller & Urey at the university level and they can barely cough out the words “amino acids”.
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Once again, a very impressive, honest and self-introspective piece. As an interested nonbeliever, I appreciate the topic, tone and tenor very much.
Let me add one other offputting characteristic of among evangelicals – The tendency to play victim.
Whenever a particular article of faith, doctrine, political stance or public pronouncement by some preacher, cleric or other public figure of a religious bent is challenged, somebody screams “anti-Christian bias” and claims the mantle of the persecuted.
Relating this to your main point – It’s like the unpopular high school student who says he behaves obnoxiously because people pick on him rather than seeing that people pick on him because he behaves obnoxiously.
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Great and TIMELY post! I see apostate evangelicals As being represented by the Pharisee who thanked God he was not like ‘those sinners.’ I see the true evangelical as the other man who prayed ‘have mercy on me a sinner.’ The true evangelical is the Daniel, in the world of Babylon, but spiritually not of Babylon. But in the midst of pure ungodliness, Daniel quietly lived his faith. And he was loved for his kindness, gentleness, and respect for the ordained…God-given seat of authority held by an ungodly King Nebuchadnezzar. Later, under the rule of Belshazzar, Daniel was loved (Daniel 5) by the King. Daniel was a man of God and he was loved by pagan kings? How could that be? It was so because Daniel loved them….and his love for them was genuine. (Rom 13:10) The genuine Christian has no ill towards his fellow man….even though he be sinful. Romans 12: 9 says to ‘abhor’ evil. It doesn not say ‘abhor the sinner.’ Spiritual warfare involves wickedness in ‘high’ (spiritual powerheads). The war is not against flesh and blood….the sinner.
The culture war being fought by selfrighteous evangelicals has provoked the rejection of their sincere attempts at naming sin. But, like the Parisee, the attemtp is doomed to failure because it is not rooted in love. Love never fails.
Sunday, during our visit with female inmates at the county jail for Bible study, a new inmate was brought into the cell block. She had just dressed herself in the black and white striped clothing and had been given a grey wool blanket. We, my sister and myself, we greeting, laughing, hugging, and lifting up the other inmates. We invited the new inmate to join us but she was too upset. She wouldn’t even respond to others at all. She was housed in an open-door cell cubicle directly attached to the common area where we and the others inmates were socializing. After about 45 minutes, I could no longer leave this troubled young woman to herself. I quietly left the group and walked into her cell cubicle. She was on the bed with face buried in her pillow and the grey blanket covering her head leaving only space to breath. SHE WAS HURTING BAD! I didn’t need to know why she was arrested. I didn’t need to know anything about her. My heart was absolutely filled with compassion (from God) for this lonely being. I leaned down, touched her shoulder saying, “Are yu asleep?” She pulled the blanket back just enough to look at me. She didn’t speak. I knew in my heart that the only thing I could give this very needy young woman was ‘love.’ I leaned down and pulled the strands of hair from her eyes and stroked her temple….gently….while saying to her, “I am so, so sorry! Can you believe me when I tell you that all this will get better? I love you. I’m not your mother. She’s not here. But I am. If you were my daughter lying there in such desolateion, I would hope someone would encourage her…would have compassion for her hurts. Again, I am so, so very sorry for the situation you are in. I love you.” Then..I left her and went back to the group. I shared with the group about the deceiver’s trap concerning homosexuality. I shared how God wanted them to have the joy of a right marriage union. How God wanted them to have the joy of holding the offspring of that right marriage union. How much God wanted them to know the joy of ‘trust’ within that right marriage relationship. Then I shared what the deceiver desires for them . I leave all the outcomes to God.
As ‘evangelicals,’ I guess you could call us, these inmates NEVER fail to welcome us with hugs, smiles, open arms, and lots of tears. They are PRECIOUS. And they ‘know’ we see them as PRECIOUS.
.
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Many good points are made by your posters, as well as some very astute observations by yourself.
Some other things “we” find disturbing about evangelics, not just Christians:
The whole agenda thing you refer to – the hi-jacking of huge sections of your movement around the single agenda item of abortion, as well as the inherent judgment that is behind recruitment to begin with.
The “grow at any cost” mentality from a mega-church perspective.
The presumption that a “saved” teenager has anything to say to an un-saved adult. Go LIVE your religion, then get back to me.
The lack of emphasis on internal growth, the over-emphasis on externals.
As one poster pointed out, the presumption that moral strength requires a religious – even denominational basis.
I just noticed how many times I have made reference to states of prejudgement, how about the moral stance that presumes to judge others at all?
But I don’t have to go to evangelical Christians to find these behaviors, so don’t feel like the Lone Rangers here.
I fall into the under-surveyed and ill-defined group of “spiritual but not religious”. I don’t trust organized religion for many of the very reasons you have so eloquently pointed out in several of your articles.
But the Catholics and many others have fallen into the same traps. Specifically the Catholics have some historical authors of staggering strength and wisdom. But they don’t like talking about their spiritual side either. So who is the message designed to draw then?
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Although most of what you wrote I believe to be accurate, you omitted a crutial aspect of Christianity. Christ did not want to build the perfect church – if He wanted that then he would not have built it on man (Peter). Where man falls short (which you detailed above) God’s Grace comes in. God knows we are not perfect, and many times we should step aside and let the Gospel speak for itself… But if someone is seeking God, then His Grace and the Holy Spirit are more than enough to overcome the imperfections of the Church. And even if all the “imperfections” with the church were removed, the world would still despise Christians because of the Gospel.
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We need to distinguish between “national evangelicals” and the local Christians. I am evangelical. While a sinner, this article does not apply to me yet I am part of what is blamed as the problem. The root of this problem is a lack of righteousness. Period. It is a spiritual problem which has a spiritual answer. My challenge to all on this site who profess to be Christians is this, have you prayed for your evangelical family? As I recall “one who is spiritual” is supposed to restore a fallen brother. Yet most of what is here is simply further condemnation.
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Thank you so much for posting this. As an Evangelical myself, I’ve seen every item in your list, and more besides.
I have to admit I can see why so many feel dislike towards us, I feel that way myself at times.
I know this is re-posted and I’m sure you did and are currently receiving a great many shots that don’t show up in the comments. If we are going to address these problems though, we must call them out for what they are. I’m glad you can have the voice and platform to do just that, we need more of this.
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Insight…reflection…honesty…compassion for ALL as well as ourselves…
No matter the denomination Christians are called to follow the radical message of love as exemplified by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ.
In order to embrace this message we must discard the all to human tendency for arrogance and judgement. That’s not to say we should confuse compassion with compromise of core Christian theology, but we must return to the exact words of Christ. There we will find that God commands us to be the balm for those in pain, the QUIET friend who listens, and an example that people WANT to follow.
Your article hits the nail on the head. How many times do Christians profess a “faith” from a street corner yet fail to comfort and feed the homeless man on the same street? How often do we take an anti-abortion stance, calling it “pro-life”, and then turn to shouting for the support of war. I could go on and on, but you have so eloquently expressed the great challenge that needs to be addressed by ALL American Christians.
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Phil, 1 Peter 2:19-20
For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.
If a person acts like a total jerk, he has no standing to say he is “suffering for the cause of Christ.”
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Great post. I no longer like to associate myself as an Evangelical anymore for the above reasons you list. I agree 100% with what you are saying. You spoke my mind (thanks, so I did not have to write it myself) After 10 years in the institutional church, I have left to follow Christ as the head of His Church.
Thanks again for being bold for Christ.
Brian
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These incidents show something that evangelicals need to admit. We are frequently unable to see humor, absurdity, and the honest reasons for humans to laugh at themselves. What very normal, very healthy people find laughable, we find threatening and often label with the ridiculous label of “the devil.â€
It reminds me a lot of Umberto Eco’s “The Name of the Rose” (sadly, I only know if the movie with Christian Slater and Sean Connery, which I saw in my high school history class) – the motivation behind the murders being that the monks who got killed had the utter gall to read a book about comedy.
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some interesting thoughts
a little over a year ago i got to tag along as one of my seminary professors had a lunch with an evangelical biblical scholar & culture guru. i’ll leave him unnamed, but he said something about this topic which really stuck with me: “unfortunately our culture as witnessed evangelical churches who are quick to dish out criticism but unwilling to receive any.” i think that soundbite speaks volumes.
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A very thought provoking article. I agree we evangelicals do much to harm ourselves. I often think we spend to more effort on the political moral issues rather than reaching out with love to those who are hurting. If we take care of the harvest, God will take care of the politics.
I would agree also agree that we need humor. But I would like to point out that a major form of humor I see that is being used is sarcasm. I think Christians need to be very careful when they use sarcasm. Sarcasm might look funny on television but the target of sarcasm is almost always a negative attack on the individual instead of something they did. It’s humor at the expense of the individual. I watched a band teacher who proclaimed to the class that he was a Christian but then constantly used sarcasm to deride their performance. He thought he was being funny and humor was a soft way to correct the students and get his point across. Unfortunately, he crushed their spirits and demoralized them. In the end he lost his job because of so many upset parents and my child is still in counseling. I hate to think what kind of image he left in the minds of those kids for what a Christian is.
So I agree that we need humor, but avoid the sarcasm that attacks the person and is just for your own personal laughs.
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J, ” I look at New Life Church’s facade and think: “Yes, that’s the definitely sort of place I’d go into to have my Borg implants installed.—
I can’t help but smile and laugh everytime I read your comments. I love the wit!
Interestingly, on the subject of the buildings per.se (ignoring all esle in imonk’s article if I may), there was a wonderful documentary produced her in the UK which I saw about 18 months ago. The doco examined changes in British architecture, and had an episode on ‘places of worship’. It’s interesting to note how the protestant reformation theology greatly influenced the understanding of design in terms of church buildings. The “escape from rome” was reflected in protestant and later evangelical architecture by their erection or largely unadorned, buildings. The thinking being A) in part reaction to the material excesses of Rome and B) following the notion that God could/would communicate with all directly and didn’t need to go through a priesthood/ papacy.
As time has gone on, these architectural and design norms have been freed from their original philosophical intentions, and have become almost doctrinal in their own right. Hence, in part the proliferation of minimalist warehouse style places of worship. Like perhaps yourself and others, I’d much rather spend my time someplace nice . . . with a log fire in the corner, a glass of Piper Heidsieck in my ahnd and some Edward Elgar on the stereophonic.
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J: The difference between the two temple and New Life is that the builders of the temples used the natural landscape that God gave them in their designs while New Life obliterated his creation to install a God Mall.
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j:
The fellows at the BHT have long said that if we abandon Christianity, Shinto is our next choice.
Church architecture— not a concern of Jesus, thankfully.
peace
ms
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In the grand scheme of things, it hasn’t been much, but my work with training youth has proved encouraging when they are taught a less traditional message. Teaching the Apostles Creed, showing what “love your neighbor” really looks like, discussing the value of repentance, and the like seems to bring up students who have more humility and grace for those who are aren’t Christians.
Call me “over-the-top,” but I think we can mis-represent holiness to such a degree that it, in practice, it has the stench of something else. Say it with me…
P-H-A-R-I-S-E-E
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*On the level of religion in general, probably not much. On the level of how they each understand ultimate reality and the specifics of their own beliefs, considerable. From the standpoint of anti-religionists, probably none.
New Life looks like it has better parking.*
Mayhap it is so. There’s probably more places to tie up your mule at Taktsang, though.
But you don’t feel slightly, I dunno, *warmer*; more caressed and embraced and respected as a human being looking at Taktsang (or, if you prefer, Yemrehanna Christos church in Ethiopia) than you do at New Life Church or the Crystal Cathedral?
Me, I look at New Life Church’s facade and think: “Yes, that’s the definitely sort of place I’d go into to have my Borg implants installed.”
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I am one of the “theys” you are speaking of and I felt I needed to comment. Your post made plenty of good points and I believe you must be quite a preacher/pastor. I was brought up in a churchless home by agnostic parents so naturally, I followed their direction. This caused problems when I was going to marry my wife of six years. Her family, whom are Presbyterian, were unsure if I was a good, moral person since I didn’t attend church or claim a religion. It took a long time for them to warm up to the idea of a morally just person without a religion. Thankfully, I changed their minds and the wife and I have been happy ever since.
The issue that I see, often first hand, is that many Evangelicals don’t believe that a person can make the right decisions without going to church every Sunday. That is a huge judgement that has no real merit as it relates to most of society. My personal beliefs follow those taught in the Bible very closely, but I don’t believe that I should act as I do because of God’s will. I act as I do because it is my duty as a human and, additionally, nobody likes a jerk.
You are correct in saying that the bar group is more real than many Evangelicals. The bar group makes no qualms over their lifestyle, beliefs and morality. Many times, those people’s beliefs follow the same lines as your own, but they are condemned for the activity of sitting in one place rather than the other. Both the bar and the church are man made buildings where people go for support, friendship and relief from the stresses of the day and both places have addicts that abuse the facilities. Unfortunately, those abusers are the people that are the public face of both establishments. It is unfair on both sides and it does more harm than good.
I would hope that Evangelicals will realize that there are plenty of good people in the World that do not attend church. Truthfully, I feel most spiritual in nature. Being in a building never did it for me. It seemed artificial and that is suited man’s interpretation of what God wanted, but that interpretation has been bastardized by making churches into businesses. When I need God, I go surfing, hiking, or anything else in the World he made. I wouldn’t dare think that my building was God’s house.
Sorry for the long post, but if we can have a better understanding between our two groups, we can all be better people and our society can progress. Keep writing these and I’ll keep reading them.
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Phil:
I don’t argue with that scripture, I accept it. But if we act like jerks- and we do, all the time- then that scripture isn’t an excuse.
And that’s how we use it- as an excuse for refusing to treat other people as Jesus has treated us.
peace
ms
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Jesus Himself said the “world” would hate us. A righteous person is a “walking rebuke” to the unrighteous–without ever opening their mouth.
Those who hate our God will also hate us.
Why should we expect “lost people” to act any differently?
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j: On the level of religion in general, probably not much. On the level of how they each understand ultimate reality and the specifics of their own beliefs, considerable. From the standpoint of anti-religionists, probably none.
New Life looks like it has better parking.
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John Blue: The phrase “heavy moderation ahead” is because I’m not going to have either side just slinging the same old tired rhetoric. Which is what you posted. Call me what you want. Go find another Christian who would write that article.
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Put in starker, more visual terms: What is the difference between New Life Church and Taktsang Temple?
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