Meet The Evangelical Untouchables

Posted byChaplainmikePosted inSite news/Tech

Michael Patton is the director of Reclaiming the Mind Ministries and is one of the teachers on The Theology Program.

Tony Kummer is on staff at a Southern Baptist Church in the midwest and blogs at SBC Voices.

Ryan Couch is a Calvary Chapel pastor in Oregon, and blogs at Small Town Preacher.

Kirk Cowell pastors a Church of Christ in North Carolina.

Lindsey Williams is planting a PCA Church in North Carolina, and blogs at From Acorns to Oaks.

Matt Edwards is a small groups pastor in an independent church in Washington, and blogs at Awaiting Redemption.

Darrell Young pastors a Christian and Missionary Alliance Church near Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

52 thoughts on “Meet The Evangelical Untouchables”

  1. What do these guys have to fight about? To immerse or not? I really have no idea. To me, evangelical has always been pseudo baptist.

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  4. Lol Cross and the Switchblade. Greatest movie ever.

    “Tell the man we have arrived. We ah da Chosen People!”

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  8. How did you ever persuade a Calvary Chapel pastor to work with pators outside the Calvaries? It’s a miracle. He’ll probably be getting that excommunication phone call or e-mail from Costa Mesa any moment now.

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  10. Rick:

    Michael wants to charge us for use of the charts and I am refusing to pay. He will be chartless, but will wear a shirt and long pants.

    ms

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  11. I am not an ordained minister. I am not a college graduate. My mother was Jewish. My father was Methodist. I have been, not necessarily in this order, Methodist, IFCA, independent Baptist, GARBC, non-denominational (pastored by the founder of YFC) that was Baptistic in doctrine and Presbyterian in form of government, Southern Baptist, A/G, COG (Cleveland, TN), and home-based group. These are just the groups I “held membership in” — there are others (C&MA, Conservative Baptist, etc.), plus some that I admire but have never been a part of (EPC, Free Methodist, EvFree, etc.).

    This is not an application to be part of your new group. I’m obviously not qualified anyhow.

    My question to you, Michael, is this: What in God’s name are planning to do with a group called The Evangelical Untouchables and what makes them so untouchable?

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  13. Kirk, Michael:

    Thanks for the clarification on “Church of Christ.”

    Christopher: iMonk replied: “Check out the Al Martin Reformed Baptists. A whole different breed of cat.” This is an understatement. I spent almost a year in one of the Martinesque/Chantryesque RB churches. Those outside their circles, like Michael said, are often viewed as not Christian. Or at least spiritually inferior. These RB’s are strict subscriptionists to the 1689 London Confession, and make such a requirement for church membership and participation in Lord’s supper. Dever, Piper, etc., aren’t considered RB’s.

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  14. Michael,

    I will look further into the movement to which you refer. When I was a member of Capitol Hill Baptist, there a young guy going through the CHBC pastoral internship program who had once been a member of Al Martin’s church. Perhaps he was one of the more “open-minded” ones? I dunno!

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  15. Hey Michael,

    I’m looking forward to this…hopefully I can answer your questions without further establishing myself as a crazy in my movement πŸ™‚

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  16. Christopher:

    None of those are technically reformed Baptists. The Reformed Baptists are a denomination. Look up Trinity Baptist Church in Montvale, NJ. Al Martin. Walter Chantry. Reformed Baptist Church in Grand Rapids.

    Founders are SBC. They have reformed soteriology but fall far short of being fully reformed. T4G is a 2 day conference, not a denomination or even a network. 9 Marks is a ministry of one SBC Church. Dever is SBC. Piper is Baptist General Conference.

    Check out the Al Martin Reformed Baptists. A whole different breed of cat.

    If Calvin would have burned you at the stake, chances are you’re not all that reformed πŸ™‚

    ms

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  17. Michael,

    Wow, brother… you must know some really extremist (hyper-Calvinist? Fundamentalist, maybe?) “Reformed Baptists,” if most of the ones you know don’t associate with evangelicals and tend to think that there are few Christians outside their circles.

    That doesn’t describe *any* Reformed Baptists whom I have known, personally. Founders Ministries? Together for the Gospel? 9 Marks? Mark Dever? John Piper?

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  18. Nice group you collected here Michael. (And I mean that with all sincerity). I enjoy disagreeing with Michael Patton on his blog on a regular basis, but I like that we have always been able to do so with a spirit of charity.

    Welcome Darrell Young. Glad to see someone with a C&MA perspective. I have driven through your town many times while traveling from Regina to Banff. For those not familiar with the Christian and Missionary Alliance, it is one of the fastest growing denominations in Canada. Canada’s current Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, attends the C&MA church where my wife and I were married.

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  19. Michael,

    Yes, I understand. You have chosen well in that Kirk is very representative of what is really the largest segment of the SCM churches.

    Tim

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  20. Oh, and we would never, ever, ever ourselves say that I “pastor” the congregation. Big taboo! I am a mere minister, the lay elders are the pastors. But then, we don’t even use the P word. Or the L-word either. There are no laity or clergy–we are all priests! I’ve heard that sermon more than once.

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  21. Steve,

    Our church is in the acappella tradition of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement, distinct from our close relations in the independent Christian Churches, and our more distant kin in the Disciples of Christ.

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  24. I think we all know where this is goin’. The Untouchable Evangelicals are going to rub out the Liturgical Ganstas. For the past two years, Michael, I’ve read your blog and thought you were a man of ecumenical peace. Your true colors are coming out. You were a G-man all along and youz got Hollywood written all over yah.

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  25. I didn’t see any Adventists. Are we invited too? I know we always get branded as legalists but really we’re just trying to tell the world ‘Jesus Christ has power over sin here and now and that He will heal the nations on his return.’ They aren’t such bad points, His words really, He said he was coming back, so there should be no division among believers on this point.

    I chose not to go into professional ministry since our church was so divided on the question of women’s ordination, I’m a veterinarian but I am a teacher in my church and I hold a B.A. in Theology (and a B.S. in biology and a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine-which really means I’m interested in Creation issues).

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  26. Glad to see several requests for Vineyard reps. I’ve been with the Vineyard since ’88 but I’m underqualified, underschooled, unsure of my own denominations positions….yet fervently hoping that some poor vineyard “victim” gets picked. Then I can learn what my group really believes (or at least some of them) πŸ™‚

    Looking forward to this,
    Greg R

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  27. Evangelicals believe in salvation by faith alone. I’m a life-long member of Christian Churches/Churches of Christ. We believe the Bible, which makes clear that only those who are reborn of water (baptism) and spirit (repentance) have clothed themselves with Christ. So we don’t qualify as evangelicals of any stripe.

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  28. How about them EV Free guys? There’s a group I’d like to know more about. They have a heavy presence in my community area and seem to be doing good work. But I’m just not too certain what it means to be a part of that group. They may even possibly fall as a sub-category of one of the groups you already mentioned.

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  29. “I doubt that the evangelicals will be defending tradition or denomination, but it will be helpful to understand various perspectives.”

    Tradition or denomination in the classic sense, sure, but frankly, these days, folks of this ilk (or any ilk for that matter) just can’t help themselves in the loosest sense of the word. I love your heart here, Michael, and applaud the idea, just choose wisely.

    P.S. Is it possible to fit into the MacArthur mold while not being much of fan of “MacArthurism.” How about the Piper mold?

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  31. Michael,

    I grew up in evangelical churches of Christ and was as close to ordained as is allowed/practiced within that fellowship. I served several churches in lay ministry (though there really wasn’t any distinction made between clergy and laeity) and at least four churches on a regular basis between 1979 and 1990. From there I went to the Independent Christian Churches and have served various roles with several churches, from Bible Class teacher to choir member and Worship Leader and even Preaching minister off and on.

    My training was in COC colleges in York, Nebraska and Searcy, Arkansas, as well as the Sunset School of Preaching (now SIBI – Sunset International Bible Institute) in Lubbock, TX between 1978 and 1984. I now also serve as a moderator on a primarily S-C/M (Stone-Campbell Movement) discussion and Bible study forum on Yahoo Groups. Occasionally I write something for a personal blog at gziegler.blogspot.com, but I am not very regular about it.

    If you could use someone like me, I am sure I would grow from the experience. That spells great interest to me.

    Blessings,

    Glenn

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  33. I forwarded this to my brother, who’s a Ph.D (Emory), ordained in A/G, and professes at Evangel U. Might not be the most “typical” A/G person you’ll ever meet, but he’d certainly give you an opinion! If you hear back from Dr. Bill, you’ll know who it is.

    I can’t really put my hat in the ring– just have a BA from a state school…

    BTW, KW, your suggestion is hilarious, but I wouldn’t even host the server where THAT group would reside!!! They’d melt the surfaces off the platters!

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  35. I think it is a sad commentary on the current state of affairs when you have to go into so many words and so much detail in order to build a working definition of “evangelicalism.”

    This is one of the problems when the church dismisses confessionalism and “man-made creeds” and each congregation reserves the right to cook up its own statement of belief. Labels like “evangelical” become very hard to define.

    I doubt that confessional, LCMS Lutheranism would fall under this definition of evangelical. As a Lutheran, I very much look forward to this effort, as well as your broader effort to deliver evangelicalism from its worst excesses, and I pray for your success.

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  36. Calvary Chapel pastors typically aren’t seminary-trained (although some are).

    Calvary Chapel’s version of seminary is Calvary Chapel Bible College, with a main campus in southern California and satellite campuses throughout the country.

    Also, there are Calvary pastors who didn’t even go to CCBC, but have gained an exhaustive knowledge of Scripture through years of personal study.

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  38. Read with interest your comments on evangelicalism on one news. Media driven, Mega Church Ministry and the influence of their leaders through books, seminars, and conferences etc. is not dying it is dead. It has not touched the growing secular/socilailistic movement for the last 25 years. Evangelicalism in the west is in the midst of radical changes. I believe we are now in the closing of the church age. The Christianity will no longer hold influence on a national scale regarding influence on laws and morality a secular world order is now near full development. The true, church [for there is always the true and false church] will no longer be dependent on denominationalism, political influence, media driven mega ministries that require huge amounts money but will be forced to be dependent on the power of the Spirit of God alone, as the NT believers and the church persecuted around the world throughout history has.Evangelicalism, as we have understood it may die, but the Scriptural truth of being evangelical will live on, resurrected to what Christ intended it to be. I agree with your assessment of house churches and have believed this is where the church would go for over 30 years.

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  39. This should be interesting, Michael. I enjoy reading the Liturgical Gangstas postings. It’s amazing to me how many various Christian groups there are. I can’t even keep it straight what the mainline churches believe!

    Funny, K.W. Leslie!

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  41. I think all the other groups are being saved for the iMonk featureÒ€¦ coming to an entirely different blog than this one if Michael can arrange it:

    The Heterodox Posse.

    Featuring the angriest white males ever to claim allegiance to the Prince of PeaceÒ€¦ and if their proof-texts are to be believed (and they shouldn’t be) He wasn’t really all that into peace anyway.

    Of course the trouble will be in getting people to read ten pages of quotes from C.I. Scofield interspersed with seemingly-random quotes from the King James Version. In all caps. In one paragraph. In red letters. (God help whoever has to format thatÒ€¦ or host it. Won’t be me.)

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  42. Ligon Duncan is probably a good choice for ‘Evangelical/Independent Presbyterians (PCA or Ò€œlowerÒ€)’. Tom Ascol for reformed anabaptist.

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  43. Been charismatic nondenominational for 9 years… was a Baptist who was charismatic for 4 years previous to that… am 54 ordained, two seminary degrees…

    What is this about… I would think about it.

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  44. Most of the Reformed Baptists I know disavow any relation to evangelicals and are pretty sure there are few CHristians outside their circles.

    If that’s not you, right me and sell me. I’m interested, but I tend to think Calvinists have plenty of ink on the web already.

    peace

    ms

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  46. Hi Brad,

    I doubt that the evangelicals will be defending tradition or denomination, but it will be helpful to understand various perspectives.

    peace on ya

    ms

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  47. I guess I fit the MacArthur type description, but I don’t fit your mold, Michael. I think I know what you’re looking for there, as I’ve worked alongside you several years ago tempering some of MacArthur’s closet supporters when they tried to make the case you’re “mentally unstable.” Remember me now? But I’m not interested in defending a tradition or denomination. Sure, I can’t shake my theological leanings, but I’m hoping by faith in Jesus Christ to transcend them.

    Brad

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  48. I looking forward to this!

    I have been a follower of Jesus for about 25 years, I am forty-seven now.

    My journey has been word-of faith, Calvary Chapel, SBC, and unexpectedly. LCMS Lutheran.

    Keep the faith! (no matter what it “looks-like”.)

    Rob

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  51. That’s a nod to my own tradition. I want them in both, and they do have both aspects, depending on what bunch of Baptists you are looking at. There are high church Baptists and very low church Baptists.

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  52. Just curious… how did the baptists end up in both the evangelicals and liturgicals? I’ve been wondering for a while because I didn’t think they were liturgical but I thought maybe I missed something (admittedly, I don’t know that much about SBC). Are they both?

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