After spending the day learning that my Alan Creech ad has deprived me and thousands of others of their salvation (thanks a lot Alan), I’m rather overwhelmed with the ironies of evangelicals in general and the neo-Reformed in particular. (Yes, Virginia, there are neo-reformed.)
So here today’s somewhat sophisticated open mic question:
What are some of the ironies you see in evangelical life, belief and practice? (If you have to look up irony, that’s OK. Go ahead. We’ll wait.)
The Internet Monk Archives 
i find it ironic that someone who has started a so called jesus shaped spirituality and has welcomed everyone from different traditions to engage in this journey consistently highlight the shortcomings of people who preach doctrines of grace…
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Having grown up in one tradition and “moved†to the other, this is something I often think about. It’s an upside down world. — Sharon
“‘Cause it’s a Great Big Stupid World…”
— Randy Stonehill (?)
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Jonathan
I totally agree with you. Having grown up in one tradition and “moved” to the other, this is something I often think about. It’s an upside down world.
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Very good, thoughtful points, Jonathan.
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Sorry a bit late on this thread… but I just gotta add the irony of the works vs faith divide:
I grew up hearing stories of the scales used in the catholic church – if the good outweighed the bad they’d make it to heaven. I was told that catholic’s were legalistic and believe they get to heaven based on good works.
Catholics on the other hand grow up believing that evangelicals believe all you need to do is say a prayer. Once saved always saved. They think once we said that prayer we think we can live however we please and still get to heaven.
The irony is this:
In practice some are skeptical of how worldly Catholic’s often are, and no matter how sinful they seem to live they all get the ticket to heaven at the Catholic funerals.
In practice evangelicals are often the ones who seem very legalistic. Don’t smoke, drink, dance or chew, or go with those who do. And if someone does break these rules, yet said the prayer, we say they likely were not really saved before – maybe they said it but didn’t mean it?
So in practice which (stereotyped) group seems to practice “once saved always saved”, and which group is legalistic and placing a larger emphasis on works?
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I find it ironic that people are so busy arguing whether God made the Earth in six literal 24-hour periods or not and whether or not gay marriage should be legal that they forget that Jesus simply said to love one another, help one another, heal one another, and believe in Him.
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I find it ironic that I can’t think of a pulpit today that Spurgen would be allowed to fill because he enjoyed smoking his Cuban cigars….
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The church which sent the Easter invitation is a Christian, non-denominational church. I doubt that there is a human being in the USA who doesn’t know why Easter is celebrated. We can agree to disagree on this means of drawing people to church. We left a church, in the Calvary Chapel system, which started bringing in all types of entertainment to perform worship – including hip-hop and rap. I can hear the arguments roiling, just my point of view, respect here is key.
The Halloween party, called a Harvest party, was always held on Halloween, costumes and candy, and all the trappings of a pagan holiday. Thousands came to this event, how many came to Christ? This even overrode the Saturday night service, if Halloween fell on a Saturday. GIve me a break.
It’s little wonder that the teachings in many churches are long on social messages and short on truth.
I go to church to hear the Word, to learn more and to partake in worship and fellowship without the disruptions of coffee breaks, comedy acts and people who feel the need to talk during the service.
Easter, for the church I mentioned, has become a festival of booths and Egg Hunts every half hour.
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One more thougth…
Irony…
trying to reform something that it’s wrong from its very core.
Peace and Love!
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Irony?… hhmmm let’s see…
Have you ever heard say: “Jesus is not religion, it’s life (… relation or whatever the bumper sticker says)”?
How many of us “evangelical christians” slap this words in the face of (mostly) catholic people and then preach them: If you want to become a REAL CHRISTIAN, you have to become… EVANGELICAL!!!? (Obviously we don’t say it that way).
We rant about a void religious life and go trough the motions every single weekend without questioning our own religious practices, because we find them fulfilling. Then what’s the difference with other religious practices that other people find fulfilling for them?
I’m no theology scholar, but it seems to me that Hebrews speaks of Christ replacing the religious order of communion with God (trough Sacrifices – read tithes and offerings – Temple and Priests) for another more natural and familiar trough Christ. He replaced the religious agenda with the original idea of communion set on the Garden of Eden. (What was Adams religion? anyone?
Am I wrong here? or we’re missing the point? Jesus didn’t come to replace old religions with a brand new one. He came to (in his own words): Set the captives free!!! (religious ones included). That’s why I find pointless arguing of catholic vs. evangelicals, or them vs. us. Once you get rid of the religious agenda, you’re set free to be a true witness of the gospel.
Wanna be counter-cultural? Fall passionately in love with God, know him and Go and live a “normal” life (eg.: do whatever you do for a living) and while you’re at it, make disciples, cast out devils, heal the sick, plead the case of the widow and the poor; don’t worry about being saved by grace or by works, just be a christian-less all the add-ons. I dare you to see the counter-cultural effects of that.
I know maybe this post will be misunderstood, or even criticized. I know we can keep arguing forever about the relevance of our religious liturgy and practices. But lets face it… Our Religion and denominationalism is one of the main things the hinders the church to witness to people like Bill Maher, muslims, far eastern religions, atheists, agnostics, etc. (John 17? anyone?).
Let me be clear on this, I’m no ecumenist… far from it! Forget all what you know and start over. Discover the bigger picture… It’s about God, not about our religions. Jesus slammed the religious establishment of his days; Paul was unwilling to allow the corinthians jump into the denominationalism bandwagon; and here we are almost 2000 years later trying to make sense of all the religion-mess that we are in.
… have ears to hear?
Peace and Love!
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Without being familiar with the church who sent you that flyer, I don’t think they are trying to obscure Jesus from Easter. I think the point is not to explain everything in a flyer, but to hopefully pique the recipient’s curiosity enough that they come to church on Easter Sunday and hear about Christ’s death and resurrection. And if the flyer alone isn’t enough to get them to church on Sunday, then hopefully they’ll at least come to the Easter party, get to interact with people from the congregation and plant some seeds that way.
I’ve just seen this sort of thing done before and handled properly it works well. It’s way better for someone to hear a fuller explanation of the Gospel in person than to try and communicate it all in a mailer.
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My mailbox held a colorful mailer from a local church. Addressed to Neighbor, it claimed that “Easter Changes Everything, urging people to Discover that Change.
The mailer asked, how can a holiday change anything? It continued with, Easter is just another day with candy and colored eggs thrown in, right? The disclaimer read; Easter is the celebration of an amazing historical event when an innocent man gave his life to bring hope to mankind. What, no mention of Jesus?
What really stirred my ire were the large red letters inviting us to their Easter Family Block Party. Oh, yes there would be an Egg Hunt, Raffle, Crafts, Barbecue and a Jumpy – for kids of ALL AGES. No mention of Christ, how politically correct.
One should realize that the early church absorbed pagan practices when the population was unwilling to give up ancient, goddess worshipping festivals. Thus a lot of what believers now see as Christians practices are in fact pagan.
Many of faith will disagree with this letter, secularist will see the church as no different than any other social venue. A precious few, as one protestant pastor said, the church today is turning wine into water, will say Amen.
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Poooor Baby Jesus. 🙂
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@Alan> uhh, whuuut? Just for the record, I take orders from baptized Catholics too – ha!
Oh, I was just cracking a joke at Michael mentioning how he and thousands of other Christians have apparently lost their salvation because they use prayer beads and/or a rosary…they lost their salvation but I got a cool gift idea…and then I realized that being Catholic, both my mom and I are also in that emininent bunch who apparently make Baby Jesus Cry.
In all seriousness, I’ve started to consider getting one of your pieces for myself, which is interesting as I’ve never given much thought to using items in prayer.
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CCM magazine was a paragon of irony.
Glowing articles about musicians who were presented as humble, super-Godly people who not only were as good as their “mainstream” counterparts, but also were ministers and evangelists with some special anointing that meant God was moving in their ministry as much as He did in Wales or one of the Great Awakening revivals.
The fans, interestingly enough, either held up the musicians as 20th century Isaac Wattses, or gushed over them like the pagans did Prince or Michael W. Fox.
Glowing articles about humble Billy and Billyette Grahams in a magazine covering an industry that, in many ways, was all about consumerism and celebrity. An industry that purported itself to be all about the gospel and family values, but put its most attractive performers out front and shunted more talented, but not as pretty, performers into the unseen background.
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Patrick
I think you broke the code.
Years ago, after about four sermons on the order of “.. sell all you have and give to the poor,” ( I think F.F. Bruce inspired me with his “Hard Sayings of Jesus”) one of my Deacons shared with me that he didn’t like togas, wouldn’t wear sandals and had no interest in walking to his various appointments.
I think I made some smart remark in the sermon about we think we believe the Bible is literally true and then tossed out the “sell all…” statement. I just wish there were blogs then. It sure would have saved me a lot of wear and tear.
Curtis B.
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“Correlative irony – When the church had no cultural influence or wealth, it tended to live in a way that resulted in credibility and eventual influence. When that influence became institutionalized and started to lead to the accumulation of wealth and power, the church started to live in a way that squandered its credibility and influence.”
In other words, most of us posting here wouldn’t be Christian if we were faced with joining the Christianity of the early Christians or staying Pagan.
Be honest with yourselves, guys.
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I find it ironic that the metrics of success which are applied to spiritual endeavors are frequently, blatantly antithetical to Jesus’ values.
Where did Jesus ever assign value to crowd size, political clout, wealth or buildings. What do you think he would make of our fascination with the size of a mega-church, the size and beauty of its buildings, or the numbers of an author’s books or artist’s records sold? (Does anybody else find CCM’s “Twenty-The Countdown Magazine” and the star treatment of Christian recording artists so anti-Christ that you feel sick to your stomach? Not to mention celebrity pastors, Christian athletes, etc.)
When did Jesus ever have anything positive to say to those who had the trappings of power or success?
The church preaches against materialism, yet embraces materialistic measures to determine if, or prove that, God is blessing a venture.
Correlative irony – When the church had no cultural influence or wealth, it tended to live in a way that resulted in credibility and eventual influence. When that influence became institutionalized and started to lead to the accumulation of wealth and power, the church started to live in a way that squandered its credibility and influence. Ironic.
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Micahel
monolithic “any group” is not true.
That realization should have long ago become the bane of psychology and sociology. But, it hasn’t. We still insist on studying and lumping, defining and describing, representing and misrepresenting people as though they were a school of guppies. Why anyone would sit still for being described as a ” Lunch Box Republican” is beyond me. John Andersen used that phrase constantly.
If I remember, somewhere in the old book there is this, ” … created He them in his image.”
Few,if any analyzers, to include Christian, begin with that understanding of the neighbor.
rant on brother. someone needs to.
grace and peace
Curtis B
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I know this is off-topic for this thread, but I have to ask: why or how would Newt becoming a Catholic help with votes?
And why is this portrayed as a shrewd political move, rather than a personal conversion on religious grounds?
Okay, so the man is a Republican, but there’s a lot of Catholics who vote Democrat because they want to vote Democrat, not on the basis of “if only I could find a Catholic Republican to vote for, I’d vote for him or her.”
Or do the media really imagine the entire hierarchy of U.S. bishops are going to issue pastoral letters instructing their flock to vote for Gingrich?
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To Mule Chewing Briars who posted on April 1 at 3:31 about the hymn, “Faith of Our Fathers:”
This site http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/f/a/faithoof.htm indicates that the verse about Mary has been removed for at least some Protestant purposes. (Warning…that page has some annoying-sounding music attached to it. I turned off my speakers while I read the page.)
I also got from wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_William_Faberabout Frederick Faber’s hymns: “Those hymns are widely used in Protestant collections as well; indeed, finding a Protestant hymnal which does not include ‘Faith of Our Fathers’ is difficult, albeit with the Marianism and Roman Catholic triumphalism amended.”
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I find it ironic that the evangelical church, supposedly built on the great commission, has forgotten what discipleship is and is now satisfied with efforts towards mere conversion.
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Oh THAT is neo-Reformed. God is bigger than the box you want to put Him in … but HE fits in MY box perfectly!
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I find it ironic that people who willingly confess that God is beyond our understanding, insist on defining every aspect of His being so that anyone can “understand” it.
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Ray A:
Or those who won’t give a penny if it’s not tax-deductible. (The Father seeing in secret apparently being secondary to the taxman seeing it)
(And like someone said, copy-paste this into Catholic Ironies if it every comes up!)
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Sort of an Irony…
After a dissertation from my dentist that he follows scripture alone as his source and not all that extra-biblical stuff…
Dentist: I’m in a group right now doing a scripture study
Me: Really! which book are you studying? (Note: I happen to like scripture study and wanted to know what book of the bible)
Dentist: How to succeed in business…
Me: (After thinking about the countless blogs I’ve read on IMonk)
One more…
Conversation with a woman who is Baptist and whose huband is Catholic on her struggles with the Catholic view of things…
Woman: I just don’t like that Catholics have to depend on the Pope for interpretation of the Bible…
Later in the conversation…
Me: What do you find attractive about the church you belong to?
Woman: I like my pastor’s interpretation of the Bible…
OK – one on the Catholic side – Why is it that we are justified by our faith and works of love yet so many of us don’t do any works of love?
OK – I’m done.
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Ray A.
Something I started, probably last fall, is when I play for offering time (organist here) I have purposely started playing music less “flashy” as I have
come to believe, in some if not many, situations (esp sbc and similar) that the offering time has become a time to showcase the instrumentalist and instrument. This part of worship, and offering is a part of it,
is diminished to some degree by that being so obvious so I’ve taken to playing things that are more appropriate and less “flashy” during that time in the service – not boring or dull mind you just less obvious – less focus on me and the instrument more on worship of God through giving. Still have a “flashy” one on occasion but trending less and less in that direction. It also became a point of conviction as a musician – still got a lot to sort though – most of us do.
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Another irony: congregations that believe in Biblical inerrancy, yet ignore Matthew 6:3-4 when it comes to offering time and do the whole deal in full public view with musical accompaniment (and often an admonition to make sure your name and/or membership number is on the envelope) …
… or did I just quit preachin’ and go to meddlin’ there? 😀
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Jason — totally with you on that! Nowadays, I find myself tipping excessively (25% or higher) just to make up for the miserliness of my brothers and sisters in Christ …
Irony: Protestant leaders in general and evangelical leaders in particular who stress the importance of studying the Bible, but, when you question practices in the Church that are not supported by (or go directly against) Scripture, will then accuse you of being “educated beyond your obedience.”
That last part is a direct quote from a pastor of a good-sized (avg. att. 300-400) local congregation. One of the members of that congregation had sent him something I’d written, and that was part of his response. In the process, he was slagging not just me but his own parishioner, who had stated that he agreed with what I’d said. Nice shepherding of the flock there …
That raises a question: if it’s even possible to be “educated beyond one’s obedience” … what does that say about the kind of obedience that pastor expects of believers?
Right.
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Dave N:
It’s ironic that most churches have jettisoned sacred music while sacred music is performed at secular venues.
It’s also ironic that most of the people at said churches balk about government funding of the very arts organizations that are keeping the Christian musical tradition alive.
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Dave N, so true, so true! Back in Feb here in Knoxville
the St.Olaf College Choir (Lutheran School in Northfield, MN) sang here and the venue was at the Univ. of TN. I heard more church music in from them in that setting than most churches on any given Sunday. I commented to my wife that evening that it was so nice to hear good sacred music again – why can’t we have it in church anymore? We were sitting in a 900 seat auditorium specifically designed for music (newest pipe organ in town there too) and it was full! We can’t half fill most church auditorims these days for what we call the worship service – a definate statment on where we are or where we’re not depending on how you want to look at it.
Stopping here – if I don’t…. another rant on the music issue and Michael might really have to moderate this time. BTW Michael, sorry for being so negative on the worship and music issue – this has “got my goat” lately and I know I need to call a hault on this and
get myself straightened out on it – it’s not all of worship and I know that…. just trying to come to terms with everything. You well know how much certain issues can get at you more than others sometimes – especially if you’re close to it.
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I find it ironic that after supposedly hearing the good news of God’s incredible generosity towards us in Christ large swaths of Evangelicals go to restaurants, treat the wait staff like dirt, and tip poorly. And many of them probably felt smug that they were in church when the restaurant workers were not.
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MAJ Tony–
My point about arrest records is that as Christians we have to walk a fine line between standing up for what is right and living in obedience to the laws of the land. Unjust laws certainly existed during Jesus’ days on earth, but He did not go around engaging in civil protests. He invested in people. If we managed to get abortion completely outlawed and all abortion clinics shut down tomorrow, abortion would still happen just as it always has. What has to change is people’s hearts; and our energies would be much better spent in investing in women with unwanted pregnancies and helping them get what they need to carry the baby to term. If that means we have to help them find a job, suitable housing, adoptive parents, or whatever, then that’s what we should be doing. That seems much more productive than waving signs around and getting in people’s faces about abortion. You don’t solve one problem by creating another one. Jesus saved his anger and table-flipping behavior for the religious establishment, not the government.
I agree that at some point we may have to make a choice about civil disobedience when it comes to preaching & teaching Jesus, but if we look to the disciples for our model, they did not engage in protest, either. They disobeyed the Sanhedrin’s orders not to preach Jesus, they accepted their punishment, and quietly went right back to preaching. I guess I just have a problem with Christians copying the world’s behavior and justifying it in the name of Jesus; speaking as an English teacher, I never was a big fan of Thoreau.
As for charging for a framed copy of a Bible verse, I guess what I’m chafing at is people who think it somehow makes them more holy to decorate their homes in that kind of thing and an industry that caters to it. So maybe that belongs in a category other than irony.
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I find it ironic that posts where we get a chance to rant (me included) draw 3x the number of comments / introspection as a post on the book of Mark.
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Dixie Dawg:
I’m about to start a full time rant on portraying all evangelicals as sheeple who follow whatever Fox news says they are going to do.
I’ll bet that 75% of the evangelicals on this blog wouldn’t vote for Gingrich. I agree with him on many things, but can’t see myself supporting him.
Evangelicals are diverse. The media portrayal of us as monolithic is not true.
peace
ms
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A church council I once was a member of haggled over a $500 electric bill for almost two hours, debating the merits and demerits of various bulb wattages, then in the last 20 minutes of the meeting unanimously approved taking out a $50,000 loan for property repairs and improvements.
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It’s ironic that most churches have jettisoned sacred music while sacred music is performed at secular venues.
It’s also ironic that most of the people at said churches balk about government funding of the very arts organizations that are keeping the Christian musical tradition alive.
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An irony from back in the days immersed in CCM culture: Listening to “Secular” music was frowned upon, but listening to CCM acts cover “secular” songs was okay.
I still find it ironic that a missions trip to a desolate Native Reservation or inner city slum can be augmented by a stop at the Mall of America or Amusement Park on the way home.
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Just a quick note on Newt Gingrich’s becoming Catholic. This holds implications for the politicized religious right, aka theocons and the 2012 election. With his absolution Newt may make a run for the Presidency.
The irony. Falwell’s children will find themselves lining up behind a Catholic.
If he runs or not, Newt has a good start on re-gathering the Right. This from Max Blumenthal.
“With more than $5 million from right-wing casino baron Sheldon Adelson, Gingrich recently founded a conservative nonprofit called Renewing American Leadership. Among the group’s planned activities, which appear coordinated with a who’s who of the Christian right, are a series of “tea partyâ€-style protests against Obama’s economic plan…”Max Blumenthal, The Daily Beast.
It’s never boring is it?
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Oh I got a good one!
I find it ironic that a salvation based on “faith” alone, and not “works” include daily bible reading and daily prayer…never understood that…
Then people go ranting on how “real faith” will make a person read the bible daily and pray daily…don’t understand that either…
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Man, and I was just about to rip out a bunch of Catechism quotes – dangit. …hey, wait, is that blood? I think I’m bleeding, daggonit – Grace song, mmhhhmmm, clears throat.
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Catholics: Don’t start down the Catholic Apologetics road. Please.
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I find it ironic that many Evangelicals (and even more Fundamentalists), when noticing that there are major discrepancies between their own theology and worship practices and those of people living only a generation or two after Jesus, automatically assume that the differences must lie in the early church having fallen away. Looking in the mirror is absolutely forbidden.
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+ Alan: it could be down to two things:
First, Guinness may or may not travel well. If the pub hasn’t a bull’s notion about how to store, cellar, and serve a decent pint, you’re better off not drinking it.
Secondly, it’s all about the exotic. They can drink Guinness at home (actually, they can now drink Budweiser at home as well, but that’s not the point) – if they’re in an American bar, they (probably feel) they should drink an American beer.
I don’t drink beer (shock! well, I haven’t drunk Guinness since as kids when we were six years old or thereabouts we got spoonfuls from the bottle mixed with sugar because we wanted to know what it tasted like.. and this by-no-means uncommon event in Irish homes probably explains why Ireland has an alcohol problem, huh?) – I would have to ask my brothers (one of whom prefers to drink Murphys to Guinness) to comment on that, but my understanding is that Budweiser is fizzy water that needs to be served refrigerated so that it will numb your tastebuds and you can’t taste what you’re drinking, more or less. You may have a different opinion 😉
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I find it ironic how often the statement, “I’ll pray for you” is used as some kind of strange I’m right, you’re wrong, deal with it, conversation ender.
But I’m pretty sure this is not confined to Evangelicalism.
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Don’t know that hymn “Your Grace Is Enough”, so I Googled the lyrics.
Hmmm – are you *sure* this was written by a modern Catholic? ‘Cos I can’t find any overt heresy there (sins against lyric-writing and the English language are another thing; ending a chorus with the line “Oh God” needs very careful delivery in the singing) – surely some mistake? 😉
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My comment above didn’t make any sense because I didn’t include the quote from Joseph:
“Irony can be funny and amusing, but I find nothing amusing or funny about evangelicals at all. I don’t make fun of them, I try to avoid coming into contact or even thinking about them.”
Yes, this is exactly the place to come if you want to avoid thinking about evangelicals. 🙂
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It’s ironic that people who believe the scriptures are inerrant, twist the interpretations of them so very much in order to hide any discrepancies.
It’s ironic that we’re quick to complain about rude atheists, but quick to justify our own rudeness.
It’s ironic how Reformed people nitpick doctrine as if our salvation hinged upon it, yet say salvation is by grace instead of works. Isn’t developing theology a work?
It’s ironic how people complain about repetition in worship music, despite worshipful repetition in Deuteronomy 27-28, Psalm 118, Psalm 136, Ecclesiastes 3, or Matthew 5.
It’s ironic that we celebrate Easter by eating ham, a food that Jesus won’t eat ’cause it violates HIs own Law.
It’s sadly ironic how much we try to create “events” with no depth, commitment, or personal connection to Jesus in them, all so that church stays “fun†for our kids… then we act so surprised when they grow up and leave the church completely, and we can’t figure out why.
And how ridiculous is it whenever we can’t recognize ourselves and our behavior in the Pharisees?
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Guy from Knoxville,
You stole my favorite irony with the Christmas and Easter thing.
I find it ironic that even though Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you,” and said it to the most religious people of His day; some can’t imagine it might still apply today.
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Or vice versa.
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I find it ironic that some professing evangelicals pit “story” against “doctrine,” when both are part of the Gospel.
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One of my issues regarding all this is that on the rosary issue yesterday – the lady having cows over it mentioned something about pagan roots in its use – here’s one – pagan…. how many of those same folks have not one issue with Christmas or Easter?? Especially the Christmas issue (love it and it’s my favorite time of the year) and yet it has plenty of pagan roots, brought into the catholic church and used as a celebration of Christ’s birth during a time of the year, a month of the year he wasn’t born in and a day he wasn’t born on!! Yet, in years gone by, I’ve known of church folk who practically swore that Christ was born on December 25th almost as if it were scripture and dared you to question it! Same with Easter in many ways.
Music – do you have any idea (Curtis) how many times I’ve played (organist here) and heard Mighty to Save the last few weeks at church? How many times I’ve heard, played, sang How Great is Our God – and others along those lines? It’s to the point of nausea sometimes and no it’s not from the heart after you’ve sang it 25 times…. The first few… maybe – I’ll give you that much but after that – forget it… you loose most of the people after that. We’re throwing our worship and music heritage, our hymnody, the great sacred music of the church for this stuff – if we’re going to do that you would think we could write better texts and music than this stuff we whitewash with christian texts (so called at times) then shove down the throats of our congregations as worship and then complain and whine when they choke on it all the while questioning their spirituality and even their salvation if that don’t accept it as a valid form of worship!!!! NO I don’t accept and why should I have to!!!!!!!!!! I’m not and I won’t!!
Stopping now – getting to lathered up on it – moderate if needed Michael. Sorry for the rant.
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<>
I find it ironic that you are trying to avoid evangelicals by coming to this blog.
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Alan, you need to come down to Fado’s in Atlanta. You’ll find more ex-pats from the UK than you will Americans. Good times.
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I must have missed something severe, regarding Alan’s ad. Sounds like it was a load of waffle, though.
Irony in evangelicalism? How about responding to people with seething hate. We like to distance ourselves from Fred Phelps and his lot, but it’s safe to say there are many churches that aren’t far off. Protesting abortion clinics, homosexuals, harry potter and the like. 1, we’ve forgotten that the world has no reason to conform to Christianity. And 2, we’ve forgotten to simply love people, rather than hating them into submission. That doesn’t mean condoning action, but then again, why should they change without Christ?
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It is ironic that being raised as a good Christian kid thereby deprives one of an adequately dramatic “testimony” as an adult.
Renoah — Ironic for me, too, that I could spend years of my youth memorizing vast swaths of the New Testament for teen Bible quizzing competitions, but always found absolutely anything else more interesting to actually study — until I encountered profound Christian thinkers as an adult. But it’s merely ironic — I pray those Scriptures come to be hidden in my heart, and not just in my brain.
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actually wouldn’t mind a rosary… but would prefer a simple cross…… uuh, alan?
those whole thread is begining to sound ironic………… 8)
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My own personal irony: I have been a fan of both C.S. Lewis and Francis Schaeffer for nearly 40 years. I’ve often said I read Lewis for his understanding and expression of Christianity, and Schaeffer for his understanding of our culture. But Schaeffer was the one with the theology background, and Lewis was a professor of literature!
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I discovered the irony of nearly working myself to death in various ministries at my old Evangelical Church only to be warned that I should not convert to Orthodoxy because those people are trying to work their way to heaven.
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rampancy – “Then I remembered that she and I are both baptized Catholic. Oh snap.” uhh, whuuut? Just for the record, I take orders from baptized Catholics too – ha!
And is it ironic or just weird that a decent number of the comments on a post about evangelical ironies… are about Catholics – some o’ ya’ll jus’ can’t hep’ yerselves. 🙂
And this is ironic (I think) – has nothing to do with Evangelicals or Catholics, but in one of our very Irish local Irish bars in town here, the Irish guys sit and drink longneck Budweisers and the American guys like me, are drinkin’ Guinness – what da heeell?
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I find it ironic that so many evangelicals, born of the movement that was All About The Bible, don’t really has much idea of what the Bible is about.
I find it ironic that after my parents’ generation spent all that money on inflatable bouncy castles and Velcro walls and sumo suits to keep me in their church instead of going to the church of the candle-burning saint-worshippers, four old guys talking theology on the radio turned me neo-Reformed.
I find it ironic that I spent my seventh grade year memorizing huge portions of the book of Romans for Bible quizzing, but I didn’t understand the gospel laid out in Romans until my junior year of college (courtesy of the same four old guys with the radio show).
I find it ironic that I can’t use language around my evangelical friends that is used in the infallible, inspired Word of God.
I find it ironic that Jesus provided great wine for a wedding, but the evangelical half of my family left my Lutheran cousin’s wedding because they served beer. (Well, I say beer. It was Budweiser.)
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“I find it supremely ironic that we are urged as teenagers and twenty-somethings to be good little culturally relevant evangelists while simultaneously avoiding any kind of nonchristian culture (and nonchristian people) whatsoever.”
SottoVoce, I think you’ve got the most ironic one so far.
I’ve long thought that Christian Youth Group was really a conspiracy of over-protective parents to keep their kids from having sex – damn the consequences of vapidating the Gospel in our kids’ lives, CHRISTIAN DAUGHTERS ARE NOT SLUTS, etc.
All that teaching about being on fire for God, evangelism and engagement, and, like magic, when you hit 19 or 20 and you know nothing but you’re not your parents’ problem, the church doesn’t care to speak into your life anymore.
No wonder people lose it.
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I just want to add one more AMEN to soto’s post above because his story is definitely mine as well.
In my case there was an extreme emphasis on the socially awkward part of it due to being homeschooled for too long. My wonderful parents could not stand the idea of having me exposed to such evil and secular influences as were rampant in public schools. They might have converted me!
My 9 year old pleas to not be taken out of my mission field were note taken very seriously.
Getting back into the field has proved a ridiculous challenge.
Irony? How ’bout preachin “Go into all the world” and then creating our own little bubbles where we can live our entire life without contact from the unsaved world.
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I find it ironic that we say we believe in a Gospel of reconciliation but then go and talk about how Bob or Mabel offended us instead of going to them.
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Right on Ana.
I find it ironic that we proclaim that salvation is a gift, and that there is nothing we can do to earn it and then immediately we burden the believer with a long list of “do’s” and “dont’s” to accomplish as proof of their salvation.
I find it ironic that while we oppose the death of an unborn child, and scream about the sanctity of life, we relish the blood sport of the death penalty.
I find it ironic that the death of any American overseas is cause for retribution (at least massive investigation if accidental) while the death of a child from our bombs is an “unfortunate mistake”.
I find it ironic that the same SBC tradition that condemns the consumption of alcohol finds (found) it perfectly normal to have a smokers’ pit outside the education building of the church.
I find it ironic that I’m eating an unclean / non-Kosher meal tonight (Bang-Bang Shrimp) and that my fellow brethren that love to quote Old Covenant when it suits their needs, won’t even give it a second thought.
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Actually, my last comment doesn’t make as much sense to read as it did when I wrote it.
I read this open mic post of IMs hard on the heels of his reprint of the 2005 article on the hard bits of the Gospels. I was reading that article and reflecting on where I am in my life and what I am doing – all the time thinking “I’m not really very counter-cultural except in ways that I want to be”.
To expand on my first comment then: I find it ironic that I can understand the gospels and strongly advocate a counter-culture, I can easily find things to judge about our culture that are wrong (both Evangelical culture and world culture) – and yet I have a normal job, a busy family life with running kids all over the place, and probably don’t look that much different to the rest of the world.
That is ironic. It’s ironic that much of Evangelicalism is so strongly for the traditional family (which I think is good) – and yet to have a traditional family can make it so hard to feel like you have a transformed life. Sure – I don’t beat my wife or kids and I provide for them and try to ensure they have a good life. But that’s only different to a small percentage of the world (although your US divorce rate makes a long lasting marriage seem counter cultural!).
IM – your article on the Gospels makes me feel like your room full of Doctors and Lawyers discussing the guy that Jesus asked to sell everything. Evangelicalism in NZ is only partly the circus that it seems to be in the US (some denominations more than others). But, like you, we seem to like guilt-trip conversations about our lifestyle because they are cathartic. They allow us to vent without changing anything. Ironic.
I don’t know how to change that for my family.
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My favorite irony is how Evangelicalsâ„¢ have turned the statement, “God is about relationships, not rituals” into a recognition ritual.
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I find it ironic that I know the gospels well enough to agree with most of the criticisms above, and yet still find myself in a life that doesn’t seem so different from the rest of the world.
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I was going to make a crack that their loss is my gain, because I’d never known of Alan Creech before, and I thought that one of his pieces would make for a fantastic Mother’s Day gift for my mom.
Then I remembered that she and I are both baptized Catholic. Oh snap.
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James: Oh yeah.
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I’m amazed when I hear an “evangelical” preacher give an invitation and I scratch my head concerning when he articulated the gospel in his message.
This sort of thing drives me up the wall…
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Ragamuffin: It’s also ironic when people make that claim yet engage in praise songs in church with vain repetitious lyrics ripped off of
“pagan” pop music. It’s not pagan or vain if you insert Jesus into the song and really feel it…
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It is ironic that dispensational types show their love to Jewish folks by helping them move to Israel where they believe millions of them will be slaughtered in the End Times.
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Another one: people who rail at Catholics and other groups that have liturgical style worship (especially in using recited prayers, praying with rosaries or prayer beads, etc) for “vain repetition”, yet have no problem with Psalm 136, Revelation 4:6-8 or The Lord’s Prayer.
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CJ
“It’s ironic that we say God’s love is free and then charge people $10.95 for a framed copy of John 3:16.”
We don’t charge for the words on the framed plaque. It’s certainly biblical that a man be paid a just wage for his work.
“It’s ironic that we teach law & order and then boast about how many times we’ve been arrested outside an abortion clinic.”
An unjust law is no law. The U.S. legal system basically requires you to break bad laws to have your day in court to overturn them. Civil Rights activists of the late 60s are no different. Fr. Benedict Groeschel C.F.R. was jailed for civil disobedience during peaceful protests of abortion clinics.
Your point?
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Moderation will go on shortly, because I have to be gone for a few hours.
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would it be ironic if Alan C made rosaries with a Huguenot’s cross? Cause I really would buy one
(really, not a joke)
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SottoVoce
You are SO on target!!
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Person I just banned:
You might be shocked to discover that once your message is that I’m not a Christian, I’m not going to pay for you to go from the 20 people who read your blog to the thousands who read mine. That’s what an open mic means on my blog. My audience is well aware what “active moderation” means.
I lost all interest in the other side of this discussion after “squirrels” last two posts yesterday. What exactly is the point of discussion when you reject the Christianity of everyone you are talking with? Duh.
ms
Ragamuffin: Not a problem.
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“It’s ironic that we teach “Jesus Only†for salvation and then question someone’s else’s salvation because they voted for a certain candidate.”
The one I ran into was believe in radioactive decay.
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SottoVoce,
A-frickin’-men.
Oops. That’s sure to ruffle some feathers.
Anyway, I totally agree. I spent years 17-23 or so in that very mindset. Then I wondered why I found it so hard to talk to non-Christians and share my faith. It took being let go from my job in the Christian music world and having to go work at a Circuit City to reconnect with unchurched folk. And it just so happened that after a couple of months there, I got the most amazing opportunity to talk about Christ to a good friend I worked with.
He invited me out for a beer after work one night. Over a Sam Adams or two, we talked for about two hours with him asking questions, commenting on how he noticed that I was different (which mainly consisted of treating people kindly, not leering at and talking dirty about every woman that walked in and not being a gossip) than the others we worked with and me very naturally and organically sharing how I came to Christ and the effect it’s had on my life. He wasn’t at a place to commit to Him at that moment and he moved away shortly thereafter but I know I got to plant some serious seeds that evening. But I’d never have been able to do that without it feeling forced and “used car salesman-ish” during my years of being confined to the Christian subculture.
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What’s ironic about evangelicalism? How much time have you got?
It’s ironic that we say we are worshipping Jesus when the lyrics of 90% of P&W songs are about OUR EXPERIENCE in worshipping Jesus.
It’s ironic that we preach brotherhood and forgiveness, and then split our churches over stupid issues.
It’s ironic that we say God’s love is free and then charge people $10.95 for a framed copy of John 3:16.
It’s ironic that the very ones who holler the loudest about being obedient to Scripture are the first to ignore Matthew 18 in dealing with interpersonal conflict.
It’s ironic that we teach law & order and then boast about how many times we’ve been arrested outside an abortion clinic.
It’s ironic that we demand the right to display the 10 Commandments in the courthouse and then get upset when atheists take out ads on city buses.
It’s ironic that we demand certain books be banned from schools whether we’ve actually read them or not, and then get upset when people condemn the Bible without having read them.
It’s ironic that we teach “Jesus Only” for salvation and then question someone’s else’s salvation because they voted for a certain candidate.
Gonna stop now — I’m working into a lather.
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“Does Jack Chick take suggestions for new tracts?”
Does Jack Chick still write tracts? Is he even still alive?
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“actually, I like the old pictures of Jesus with a crewcut……….”
I tend to get some very “unChristian” looks when I say most of our pictures of Jesus would be more accurate if they portrayed him as a young Yasser Arafat look alike.
The southern European and Nordic DNA in the Jewish population didn’t happen till after the life of Jesus.
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I just deleted three comments. I’m not running a repeat of yesterday or anything even close. Anyone who brings the rhetoric from those sites over here is going to be banned, not warned.
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Sottovoce: Write that in an expanded version, and I’d love to print it at IM.
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Martha:
First wife is dead. She was the only true wife, as by God’s own law, his second marriage was an adulterous relationship, as both parties were considered to be married to their first (true) spouses. Therefore, it’s a simple annulment in the case of the second “marriage.” That type of annulment is mostly a paperwork drill.
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Speaking as one of the younger evangelical generation here, I find it supremely ironic that we are urged as teenagers and twenty-somethings to be good little culturally relevant evangelists while simultaneously avoiding any kind of nonchristian culture (and nonchristian people) whatsoever. “Don’t watch movies that you can’t show to a four-year-old, don’t read Dawkins, Hitchens, Nietzsche, or any novel whose protagonists are not paragons of virtue, don’t even get started with video games, don’t hang out with people who (insert possibly morally questionable activity of your choice here) because they might ‘drag you down’, never go to a bar even if it’s the only place you can have an actual conversation†etc., etc, ad nauseum. Basically, don’t spend time with anyone who doesn’t believe what we do and don’t examine any of the sources they draw from in constructing their worldviews lest you lose your own. Then we graduate, start our first jobs, and realize that we have no idea how to hang out with or have a normal conversation with people who think differently from us, let alone explain why we believe something they probably despise us for because it made us shun them all through high school and college. Allow me to apologize on behalf of evangelical Generation Y for listening to the above.
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Some of you get an “A” in knowing irony is. Others are more in the C- area. Need to brush up.
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Irony – people who like to quote Luther’s “Here I stand” line and try to embrace a spirit of the Reformation yet ignore what Luther talked about private confession and his reverance of the saints. This also applies to “Romophobic” Lutherans.
As an “Evangelical Catholic’ aka Lutheran, it’s only a matter of time before we find ourselves in the same boat as the RCC in the minds of some…
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I think it’s ironic that they think their religion is so much better than any other — that they must defend it with sports-team-like passion. That they must be on the winning side. And that no one else can possibly be right.
Please repost the above verbatim when you get around to the Ironies of Catholicism post.
This topic makes me weep.
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Newt Gingrich, love child of Dobson, a self professed Baptist, has swum the Tiber
Suggestions are it will help his election campaign
There is so much irony in so many parts of that, I can’t even begin. It probably started with him buying a rosary on http://www.internetmonk.com
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Patrick Lynch:
He is back. He’s just on a moderation list. He had two posts yesterday.
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Monk –
I wonder how many Protestants could robustly sing the third stanza of Frederick Faber’s hymn, Faith OF Our Fathers, wherein Mary’s prayers are besought for keeping our country safe in God.
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My own personal irony –
A shrimp or crawfish po’ boy sandwich is perfectly proper Lenten food, but its better than anything 90% of the world’s population gets to eat, and everybody treats me like I’m making such a sacrifice.
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Yeah, I wonder how many Protestants are advocating Catholicism by singing that song?
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I found it ironic that I heard a few folks speak of Hurricane Katrina as a judgment on a wicked city, but labeled a flood in south Georgia a “horrible tragedy.”
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I find it ironic that the popular worship anthem “Your Grace Is Enough” (#13 on the CCLI top 25 list for the US) was written by Matt Maher, who attends St. Timothy’s Catholic Parish in AZ. 🙂
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Yours 🙂 What a catch.
Annulments are a topic for my RC irony thread 🙂
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I find it ironic that the big 3 media classify Mormons, non-denominationials, Baptists, Methodists, ect. as Evangelical. Then, they make sterotypifications as though we were a coherent group.
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I see that Newt Gingrich, who was Baptist, has now become a Catholic. Knowing nothing about the man but what I’m reading (he’s on his third marriage?!), which of our denominations is to be congratulated? 🙂
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“Alan Creech: beader of strings or seducer of souls?”
Does Jack Chick take suggestions for new tracts?
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…yeah, uhh, no problem… any time. 😐
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“I’ve learned this by having my own arrogant know-it-all attitude toward Roman Catholicism corrected dozens and dozens of times (to the point of another kind of irony, but that’s another thread :-))”
Speaking of ironic Catholicism, I hope Surfnetter comes back here after Lent!!
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“I find it ironic that we Orthodox know that we are The Church that is meant to go into all the world, and then promptly divide into jurisdictions based on a country of origin whose language almost no one in the parish currently speaks, particularly the converts.”
This is a good one, Fr. Ernesto.
Christianity always seems to work better without a method or a plan, or footwear:
Luke 10:4
“Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.”
Luke 22:35
“Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
“Nothing,” they answered.”
I read this stuff just in passing, and then, without fail, all of the sudden the whole Christian culture ceases to make sense to me for awhile, and I can’t for the life of me make sense of what it is that we think we’re doing or living, calling ourselves Christians.
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I find it ironic that we belive that Jesus is more than willing to forgive us ALL our sins, but not willing to forgive us for doctrinal error. (see recent prayer beads fiasco)
Also, as Rick noted above ‘I’m not dissing doctrine here.’
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It’s particularly ironic to me that the doctrine police play the sloppiest with the other guys doctrine.
I’ve learned this by having my own arrogant know-it-all attitude toward Roman Catholicism corrected dozens and dozens of times (to the point of another kind of irony, but that’s another thread :-))
If you read a typical neo-Reformed, anti-Catholic tirade, you will hear item after item that is patently false.
Note the following from someone named after a small animal in the comment thread yesterday. (I know…I know…let it pass…)
Now how many outright untruths, non-truths and complete distortions are here? Is this the result of reading the CCC? Or asking RCs if this is what they, in fact, teach?
No, it’s the sloppy, toss off, anti-Catholic version of Catholic belief you can get from 50 anti-Catholic websites. It’s not careful. It’s not fair. It’s not accurate. 95% of the neo-Reformed themselves would take issue with some of it.
But what if Catholics tried this with Grace Evangelical Church? What if this level of slapdash misrepresentation is applied to Calvinism? Clear the roads and get the kids out of the streets. There’s a three alarm fire somewhere.
Fair is fair on both sides. Assuming you are right in your conclusions doesn’t mean you get to cheat in the process. Not wanting to do the hard work to know what’s actually believed is no excuse.
Big time irony.
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” Jesus payed it all.” Except what sells for $29.95. Capitalism is alive and well in the Kingdom. Wonder if at the end of the streets made of gold we will find a nice strip mall. We may chatter about Neo-Reformed, Un-Reformed, or the Outback Steak House. But, at the end of the day pragmatic materialism runs the show. And, no one notices. ” Sell all and give to the poor.” That’s probably a misquote from the Gospel of Mark. Or, maybe one of those pesky glosses smuggled in by some errant copyist of long ago.
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One great irony of evangelical/Bible churches is how little of the Bible you actually hear during a service. This is one area that our Lutheran brethren have it right-er than us evangelicals.
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MAJ Tony:
To paraphrase Mark Driscoll, I could never worship a Jesus who I wouldn’t want to date if I were a 1st century Jewish woman. (err, I mean, be chastely courted)
I picture him as a cross between Favio Lanzoni and Chuck Norris but with more scar issue.
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I don’t have an irony to share, but I would like to say thank you to all who have posted here. I’ve been personally floundering in my own anti-evangelical no-woman’s land for about 5 year now, wondering if there were any others out there who were seeing the same things as I was every Sunday morning, and being given the ‘black spot’ so to speak if I had the audacity to speak up (i.e. flaunt authority, etc. etc. etc.). Your posts, though sometimes caustic in nature, were refreshing to me. 🙂
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I find it ironic that we Orthodox know that we are The Church that is meant to go into all the world, and then promptly divide into jurisdictions based on a country of origin whose language almost no one in the parish currently speaks, particularly the converts. ‘Tis a good thing we have the sacrament of Confession, sigh!
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It’s ironic that we can always see that the other guy has unBiblical practices, but can’t see our own. — IMonk
That’s why they’re called “blind spots”. You can never see your own blind spot, only those of someone else.
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I think it is ironic how much effort and focus is put into “growing” a church, even with a “biblical method”, but so little effort is given to actually define “growth” or even see what scripture has to say about it.
Anyone seen a bible study about what scripture says concerning church growth?
Anyone seen a church pushing for more “growth”?
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It is ironic that a group of people who purport to follow Jesus as His teachings as recorded in the Bible, have a well deserved reputation for for being judgmental and unloving, caring more about being “right” than relational. They missed Matthew 7:16
You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
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The generally held belief that correct doctrine is the identifying mark of a ‘true Christian’. Yeah, I’m pretty sure that’s what Jesus said…
BTW, I’m not dissing doctrine here.
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Irony can be funny and amusing, but I find nothing amusing or funny about evangelicals at all. I don’t make fun of them, I try to avoid coming into contact or even thinking about them.
Forgive me for that, but I’ve been sentenced to Hell one too many times. Silly me, I thought God was in charge of that. Maybe that’s ironic.
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My favorite irony is when Evangelicals come to my door and begin evangelizing me, but are offended if I try to offer them my secular views.
Listen to us because out opinion is the only one that counts!
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It seems ironic to me that the same individuals who have trained you to think, to reason, and to examine your faith are shocked when such examination leads you to reject your faith.
Thanks, iMonk, for the open mic.
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Anna A:
Please remove the veil from your heart that is blinding you from the truth that a half-dozen extra choruses of “How Great is Our God” is always from the heart and godly, but saying the Our Father in common is rote babbling.
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Maj Tony,
actually, I like the old pictures of Jesus with a crewcut……….
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Curtis, this is following your line of thought.
For praise choruses (sp) but against repetitious praying.
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Naum:
Is it just me, or does “Jeezus” bear an uncanny resemblance to Chuck Norris? (Let the jokes begin)
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My favorite kind of Evangelical irony is the one where ‘evangelism’ is a proxy for mere contempt.
I love it when some apoplectic apologist manages to suspect and disrepute EVERYTHING about his target’s beliefs and cultural identity (like say, Islam, or being educated, gay, or foreign) all at once and then smugly suggests that if they believed the Gospel, they’d see how filthy and benighted they were – but of course, they don’t see themselves, because they’re BLINDED BY SIN, etc.
My latest blog entry has a good example of this in the form of a book I found; those of you who enjoy studying the Evangelical Christian mindset may get a kick out of it.
My second favorite itony is how the most ‘Reformed’ people are also the most barbaric to their fellow Christians and the least likely to know how to give a crap about people.
My third favorite is how Evangelicals are as likely as anyone to hate introspection and the examination of conscience and just spout stupid theological cliches. That’s “living the Gospel”, and if that’s not an ironic failure, I don’t know what is.
And just to make sure I do:
irony (http://definr.com/irony)
n 1: witty language used to convey insults or scorn; “he used
sarcasm to upset his opponent”; “irony is wasted on the
stupid” [syn: sarcasm, satire, caustic remark]
2: incongruity between what might be expected and what actually
occurs: “the irony of Ireland’s copying the nation she
most hated”
3: a trope that involves incongruity between what is expected
and what occurs
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I find it ironic that most evangelicals are repulsed by the mention of a ‘christian calendar’, yet will gladly co opt Jewish feasts and traditions (as long as we affix ‘messianic’ onto it.
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It’s ironic to me that there is such a vocal element of the Reformed/neo-reformed heritage attacking people like Wright for using Scripture to challenge their traditions.
Wasn’t that exactly what all their own hero’s were doing?
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It is ironic to me that the evangelical church thinks it is in the business of saving souls, but in reality only God can do that.
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Isn’t that the truth!
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Hymns and songs are neither extrabiblical nor repetitious, despite not being in the Bible and being repetitious.
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It’s ironic that evangelicals will be first in line to affirm the authority, power and truth of Scripture and at the same time act like people who believe that unless the Bible is defended by them, the kingdom of God is about to crumble and collapse.
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neo-Reformed types seem to think presuppositionalism in apologetics can ONLY ever work in their favor even though everyone else can use that approach, too.
Sometimes it seems like the evangelicals most likely to invoke Francis Schaeffer seem least likely to follow his example on exploring philosophy and the arts.
When an evangelical uses the term “countercultural” insert the American dream.
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Much like your observation Mr. imonk, I find it ironic that those who are so opposed to the papacy and “top down leadership”, and who steadfastly support congregational polity are so quick to anoint another leader as the “next big thing” or at last “the next best thing”. Even in our little circles out here in Flatland the cult of personality is strong – mostly because so many follow.
“We’re like sheep without a shepherd.
We don’t know how to be alone.
So we wander ’round this desert
And wind up following the wrong gods home.”
lyrics from “Learn to Be Still” by Don Henley
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Scripture always guides our tradition, except when you want to change somthing… then tradition wins.
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I’m always flabbergasted by the inexplicable phenomenon of Baptists who make absolute adherence to the details of New Testament baptismal praxis a MUST while, at the same time, abominating the use of actual wine in the administration of the Lord’s Supper.
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It is ironic to me that those who are the strongest defenders of the “doctrines of grace” are themselves the most non-gracious people I know.
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Rick Warren’s latest baptism push at Saddleback strikes me as ironic on a couple of different levels.
How selling a baptism because – today and only today – you can be personally baptized by Pastor Rick – really makes me wonder about the evangelical (as lived at Saddleback) project of being Christ-centered.
I don’t get it.
(And note I say this as a sympathetic and even frustrated/envious outsider to evangelical Protestantism)
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This cartoon sums it up aptly…
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One source of irony for me is the emphasis on the gospel, yet most of the preaching is from Paul’s letters.
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It’s ironic that many evangelical pastors believe that the gospel is so amazing and life changing that they put a marching band, dancing girls and circus animals in front of Jesus to promote it — ultimately bloting out for potential converts just how great the gospel is.
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I find it ironic that people who would roll their eyes when told by someone who is in favor of the acceptance of homosexuality that their opposition to it is borne of latent, unacknowledged homosexual feelings and/or fear of gays, will in turn use the same line of argumentation if someone simply tries to explain or defend your posting of the ad. Suddenly accusations of trying to “defend their own consciences regarding the following after of a false gospel” get bandied about and they are as serious as a heart attack about it.
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It’s ironic that people who generally loathe the idea of the papacy so quickly turn themselves into one: infallible, unassailable, approved by God to be his spokesperson.
It’s ironic that we can always see that the other guy has unBiblical practices, but can’t see our own.
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