Down through the years, I’ve been part of a few in-church discussions about church discipline. They were all memorable. Almost everyone was against it and treated me like I was going off the deep end for bringing it up. Being against church discipline was an issue worth yelling over, and I’ve been yelled at more than once.
In my denomination and tradition, church discipline of a certain kind was common in the late 1800’s and even early 1900’s. I recall reading the business meeting minutes of a church I belonged to that was founded in the late 1700s. In the the late nineteenth century, many business meetings involved the discipline of members for things as trivial as card playing and as serious as shooting another church member.
In the 1920’s, church discipline began to disappear and today is almost totally unknown in Southern Baptist circles. The reason is clear. Southern Baptists and most evangelicals completely lost the ability to see anything positive in church discipline, at least by the measurements they now use to measure what is positive and helpful in church life.
Church discipline was punitive and exclusionary, overstepping the church’s role and destructive to the church’s mission too represent Christ.
Church discipline lost out to…
a. the church growth mentality
b. the loss of church as community and the rise of church as voluntary participation
c. the change in the role of leaders from shepherds and elders to growth facilitators and peace keepers
d. the disconnection of the life of the congregation from the integrity of the Gospel
e. a litigious and hyper-individualized society
f. concerns about insurance, media and reputation
g. the equation of tolerance with love
h. the weakening role of the pastor as compared to influential lay members, particularly those with money and power
i. the abandonment of any serious understanding of church membership
j. a surrender to the culture’s view that religious institution should not “nose into” most personal ethical issues.
k. The gutting of the Gospel to be a message without repentance or discipleship components.
l. Open communion
On the church staffs that I have worked on, bringing up church discipline was like bringing up the suggestion of running naked around the parking lot during the 11 a.m. service.
As regards church discipline, the result is now something like this:
1. Church discipline is a very bad thing.
2. Only crazy people and abusive churches do it.
3. Church discipline means embarrassing people by announcing their personal failures and issues publicly.
4. You’re mean and unloving to even discuss it.
5. The Gospel, Jesus and a loving God are all against it.
6. You’ll get sued and be on TV.
7. It will split your church.
8. People will just go to another church and become members there.
9. Growing churches don’t do it or even talk about it.
10. Churches that say they are doing it are cults.
Now in some circles of Baptist life, this is changing. Certain forms of church discipline, especially in regard to dangerous moral compromise and the issue of long-time “inactive members,” are seeing a more positive and constructive response. Liturgical gangsta Wyman Richardson has a ministry in this area, as does the well known Peacemakers ministry of Ken Sande. Pastor Kevin Hash discussed doing church discipline in his church in an interview here at IM. The atmosphere is changing.
There is still a very long way to go. Primarily in the area of seeing church discipline as a helpful and constructive ministry to God’s people.
We need to look at church discipline again. Since Jesus was the one who prescribed it in detail, and since Paul clearly lays it out as part of a healthy church, we need to understand why and how it can become a strength and source of health, life and the presence of God in our churches.
It is my contention that a church doing church discipline in a fully Biblical, Jesus shaped way will…
-save lives.
-save marriages and families.
-stop abuse.
-magnify the Gospel.
-develop shepherds and leaders who love their people.
-provide many new opportunities for ministry.
-provide an outlet for the exercise of spiritual gifts.
-demonstrate the Christian virtues of love, mercy, grace and compassion.
Where is church discipline when we need it? Especially, where is church discipline when the hurting people in your church need it?
To be continued….
The Internet Monk Archives 
Rob —
That seems to be more of a general issue about whether mega churches should exist at all. And to some extent it boils down to how much you want small institutions acting mainly independently or tightly coordinated. I’m think that may be more of a what flavor of ice cream is better kind of question.
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Dream,
I’m sorry for your pain, I really am, but I have to stand with Rich on this one. Perhaps a clarification on how discipline ought to rightly work would help.
Let me first be clear, and then explain: in our church, if a member were to pursue a divorce for any reason that is not Scriptural, that member would almost certainly face church discipline. That may astound some readers, but the fact is that one of the leading reasons why the contemporary evangelical church is so anemic, and has such a high rate of divorce, is that churches weenie around this, and it ought to be as plain as the nose on our faces: when divorce takes place, church discipline of one or both parties ought to almost certainly take place. If there is a case of adultery, then the offending person ought to be brought before the elder leadership in order to be called to account. If adultery has not taken place, then the person pursuing the divorce ought to be called before church leadership. Now, I’m not getting into other issues in marriages; I just use these as examples. It is important to add, by the way, that our members must acknowledge that they understand our practice of church discipline, and submit themselves to the church’s leadership–including the possibility of discipline–as a condition of membership.
But what’s important to remember is that church discipline, undertaken properly, is always done in a spirit of loving concern, and always done for the purpose of reconciliation and restoration, never for the purpose of airing dirty laundry, or embarrassing anyone, or getting into anyone’s “private business”. Further, it’s not about “outsiders”: when a person voluntarily joins a church, he is placing himself under the authority of its leaders (or should be, if it’s taught correctly), as well as acknowledging that he is an “insider”, if you will, a functioning part of the body of Christ (that’s what “member” means). It’s about loving restoration; it’s about the integrity and testimony of the church; it’s about the glory of God and the name of Jesus Christ, and when it’s done correctly–and it can be done correctly, ’cause I’ve seen it–there isn’t any gratuitous airing of dirty laundry.
But for a church to fail in its responsibility to exercise appropriate, restorative discipline in such situations is to fail God, and if it comes to failing God or failing to suit people’s fancy, well, that’s not a hard call at all.
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When I was in middle school my parents took over as pastors of a relatively small church in the mid-west. One of the first things they realized was that an elder was having a not very secret affair with the girl that babysat for his kids (he was married, and the girl was over 18, but not by much). My Dad had a private meeting with him and his wife and removed all of this gentleman’s priveledges and opportunities for leadership in the Church pending a change in behaviour. It took a while, but full repentance did result.
About 10 years later I ran into another gentleman from this same church. He had been a regular attender at the time, although only because his wife was a Christian. By the time I ran into him he was a pastor. He told me that he credits this act of Church discipline and the turning point in his coming to Christ. It showed him that Christianity was more than a wishy-washy be nice to everybody faith, but intead could involve hard love to really help people and make situations better, and that’s something he wanted to be a part of.
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I’ve just got to delurk for this post (apologies if its over-long)…
Rick Shipe
“If the church doesn’t do the painful and hard thing of stepping in to make the truth known than the church is essentially putting their arms around the offending parents at the expense of the children.”
My immediate response is unprintable for this site. So here’s something a bit watered down. This isn’t the only post I’m responding to; but its the most direct and egregious example. And yes I recognize your response only mentions small children; but you seem to want to apply this rule in all cases. And unless I am mistaken you (and definitely several others)seem to want discipline applied in public for everyone to see.
My parents (Seventh Day Adventists) divorced when I was seventeen. A good friend’s parents divorced a year or two later (unrelated). Both cases involved adultery; and in my case I was more than happy to see my father go; due to his verbablly abusive behavior towards me and disrespectful treatment of my mother.
I know in my friends’ case; the church elders and pastor threatened to call him on the carpet so to speak, in public, and reveal his behavior to the congregation if he didn’t mend his ways. The only reason this never came up with my parents is that they were much more private and I doubt many people at their church knew what was going on.
I was seriously angry at my father at the time. And rightly so. As my friend was at his father for similar behavior. But when my friend revealed his father’s treatment both of us were enraged.
And I can guarantee that if such nonsense had been used against my father I would have left the SDA church much earlier than I did. Because you see, having your families’ problems dragged out in public is not helpful. It doesn’t heal. It would have been humiliating. It would have been violating. Over a decade later, just the thought makes me want to vomit. But such things must not have have crossed your mind. Or the minds of several others in this thread who seem, for all the most ‘righteous’ of reasons, to want to drag other people’s behavior before the court of public opinion and church judgment.
If my father had been hitting me; or my friend’s father abusing him; would we have wanted our church to intervene? Absolutely. Just as we’d have wanted our teachers or other authority fitures to do something. But we’re not talking about child or spousal abuse. We’re talking about families’ breaking up. It happens and people have to deal with it. What they shouldn’t have to deal with is a whole group of outsiders shoving their way in and waving they’re pain in front of a group of people who presume the right to pass judgment on the lives of others.
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works. I probably said orks because I was thinking of treebeard.
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treebeard and CD I am glad that it orks for you.
However if it is the small group that is doing th ministry then what is the reason for the giant congregation? the giant buildings? Wouldn’t this be better as several small bodies?
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Great series, iMonk. In our membership class, I tell folks (and I think I got this from Joshua Harris’ “Stop Dating the Church”, or at least the inspiration), “never join a church that is unwilling to kick you out.” Not that we relish it; not that it’s fun, but it’s necessary.
Without sounding like I’m bragging, can I share a quick story? I pastored in PA for 13+ years, and a year ago, I returned for a Sunday there. During my pastorate, we had initiated church discipline against four members. One quit; one was removed from church membership (and a couple years later, repented), and two responded to the discipline with repentance, remaining in the church, though stepping out of leadership for a season of restoration. After I left church that day (the day I returned), I realized that all four of those individuals were present that day. I nearly cried, realizing that for all the screwups I’d made (and still make in my new pastorate!), it seems like we’d done a reasonably-good job of “hating the sin/loving the sinner” church discipline. It’s essential for a church to stake any claim to being a New Testament church, IMHO, and I’m enjoying the series.
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Rob —
In all fairness to the mega churches, some of them do an excellent job. Discipline is handled by the small church groups but the leaders have access to much more experienced pastors for advice. Moreover, the appeals process goes through large church committees. That means that mega churches can quite frequently offer some of the protections that Presbyterian structures offer in terms of due process.
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Rob,
I’m not an apologist for megachurches, but the church I now attend would fit the category. I honestly don’t know how they handle church discipline issues, but the care is provided by dozens of small groups, both general and topical (including “recovery” issues). There are also multiple pastors, leaders, and professional counselors. My impression is that the care for people is much stronger and healthier than the congregation I left (which was comparatively small). I think it’s a bit much to call megachurches an “abomination.” Be careful, because the Lord might approve things you disapprove. Without question He led me to where I am now, and it has been a place of healing and restoration for me and many others I know.
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Hello, I recently found your site, and am enjoying this discussion, and your take on issues such as this one. Mainly because I missed “evangelical” Christianity (and Roman Catholicism) and landed right in Confessional Lutheranism.
Interesting perspectives, thank you!
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“Church discipline or any other type of personal care”
Reason #4235 that the mega are an abomination.
How can you care for/discipline people in a “flock” of 5 or 10 or 15,000?
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Regarding modern era Catholic discipline, excommunication does not equal being barred from the Church, just, as the name suggests, being barred from the sacraments, esp. communion. I have a cousin who divorced and remarried without benefit of annulment (probably couldn’t get one) who faithfully attends Mass every Sunday and holy days of obligation.
Perhaps the most interesting story of Church Discipline is the disciplining of Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV, who, in the winter 1077, knelt for three days in the snow, in the Appenines of Italy, in wait for Pope Gregory VII to remove the excommunication from him.
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Terri —
Agree 100%. There should be specific charges and specific findings.
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Sam —
That sounds like in out of process erasure. That’s one of the possible outcomes, “left under discipline”. Essentially the person has excommunicated themselves there is no reason to continue and it never should have gotten beyond the point of the person leaving Why not to keep going on with discipline after a member leaves.
As for expelling non members that is very questionable biblically. But you aren’t really providing details. If they had a walkout in support of them the pastor did not have the congregation’s support which is what the 3rd stage is supposed to establish. They skipped steps. They may very well have skipped the 2nd step as well.
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It is curious, is it not, that this issue USUALLY comes down to sexual sin. Several churches we were part of in the past had situations arise where the leadership decided they must implement discipline. Frankly, they were ill prepared. The immediate response was that the persons they were attempting to discipline hired attorneys.
I served as the go-between for these churches and the persons they were attempting to discipline. In all cases, neither party wanted the details made public. The churches did not proceed with the discipline, the persons quietly departed and the legal action was stopped. In each situation, the churches involved became very gun shy about disciplining people from that point on.
In a more recent case, the leadership told an unmarried couple who lived together that they must not live together if they wished to attend the church. Neither were members or held any position. They and their several relatives in the church all left.
I suspect that many churches are afraid to practice any kind of discipline, and do not know how to fairly, Biblically and even-handedly do it.
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Anna A
I understand the desire for people to show discretion, but if we’re talking about the use of public church discipline, then everything must be made public.
In a way…that’s the whole point…public exposure and confrontation of an unrepentant, sinning church member
If the leadership of a church is hush-hush on exactly why a person is being removed, they are not doing anyone any favors. Besides the potential for abuse with a ready-made defense of “discretion”, it puts the congregation in the position of wondering what happened, fueling gossip, rumors, and conspiracy theories.
People can invariably create a reason for the dismissal that is far worse than the actual violation. If leadership doesn’t have the stomach to be completely open and honest, not only in the reason for discipline, but also what has occurred up to that point to try and reconcile the member to the church….then they have no business implementing discipline in the first place.
If leadership is going to have the guts to put someone out, then they have to have the guts to lay bare the entire process.
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Martha et al:
Church Discipline is one of the things I think the RC do correctly. In RC America, however, I do not think they implement its use enough i.e. denying communion to politicians who openly support and encourage abortion.
I went to parochial school for grammar school. I have spent many tuition dollars to send my children for a Christian education in private, Christian schools. I would not have wanted them to have a teacher who was living an openly, repetitive sin, lifestyle. Oops, that reminds me that I need to go and lose 50 pounds. 🙂
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Terri,
In the cases that I mentioned, I knew some of the details that caused the disciple, but when it was announced to the congregation, they were omitted the details. I honestly don’t remember whether the class of sin was mentioned or not. I do believe that there had been work to restore the men to fellowship before the public announcements.
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Ky boy — No need to do that — but it wasn’t just an “in church” parochial act of officially sanctioned larceny that got Jesus’ hackles way up for the one and only time. The whole nation had to participate in this “fee based” system.
The “connecting of the dots” is that in order to participate everyone had to gain access to the acceptable currency — which, we are told by the experts, is the beginnings of the world monetary system. I connect these Scriptural “dots” to the imagery in Revelations where the system comes down to accepting the “mark of the beast.” Also “you cannot worship God and the unrighteous mammon” and “the love of money is the root of all evil.”
My point in bringing this up in regards to this thread is that much of this kind of sinfulness, which is the focus of much of Scripture (and what really got the Lord “consumed with zeal”) is glossed over at best, ignored and even encouraged, at worst, from many pulpits.
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An example of how the process should not work.
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/
There’s a lot to read going back over a year. And even if the blogger is presenting just his side the facts and external links give a lot of credence to his claims.
And then there’s http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/
The phrase that comes to mind is “rule by divine right”.
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An example the process should not work.
There’s a lot to read going back over a year. And even if the blogger is presenting just his side the facts and external links give a lot of credence to his claims.
And then there’s .
The phrase that comes to mind is “rule by divine right”.
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Teenage Mutant Ninja Tertullian –
1. Who watches the watchmen? In other words, what mechanisms are in place to rein in those doing the disciplining? To whom are they accountable? (Examples of ministers etc. getting into trouble are not difficult to find, and this is one area where greater discipline could solve a lot of problems.)
Depends on the organization structure, which means denomination. In an episcopal structure it goes up the hierarchy. In a congregational structure or Presbyterian structure the pastor is an employee not necc. so the church discipline and the employment member so it is not even handled via. church discipline. In the best situations though the actual acts of discipline require broad consensus. This is an area where I disagree with Internet Monk’s original article. I think the vote of the whole session is extremely important to maintain safeguards against abuse.
2. To what extent is “discipline†compatible with individual conscience? For example, if a member sincerely believes that x is moral, but the elders (or what have you) do not, do the elders automatically prevail? (Richard Nixon avoided censure from his fellow Quakers on this basis.)
Burden is on the prosecution in good systems to prove the charge is biblical. Here is a good example case involving John Calvin himself.
3. How public is this process? For example, do you announce the sins in church, have a quiet inquisition, or just a personal visit?
Excommunication has to be public. The first two stages are private. The third stage “tell it to the church” varies greatly. In the better systems these are private but very official.
On the issue of inactive members, one issue is that people move away, go to college, etc., yet may wish to maintain ties to their old church.
They form a membership with a new church and maintain associate membership with their old church. Not a problem.
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Teenage Mutant Ninja Tertullian —
One key question, which one other poster brought up, is–what sins are covered? Hypocrisy? Back-biting? Surely not.
In principle all of them, so yes backbiting should be covered. Any sin a person doesn’t repent of is a stumbling block and they need support. As Screwtape put it “why use murder when cards will do”?
During the 19th century there was church discipline for issues like gossip as well as issues like dancing. One of the most famous excommunication cases from the turn of the century the charge was failure to discipline someone for slander. In practice unfortunately it tends to be sins that the weak members (i.e. those who don’t control finance or political connections) commit. So in evangelical churches there is a focus on drugs, sex, disobedience to parents (i.e. sins of children). In more controlling churches the focus tends to be on issues of control: gossip, pride, division etc (i.e. sins of non leadership).
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“Being that the only time Jesus ever got really ticked off was at the money changers, who most historians identify as precursors to the modern world financial system –”
I have a hard time with this way of connecting the dots.
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terri,
I really enjoyed your comments. I pastor (excuse me, preach) in a Church of Christ and the disciplinary situation you described centered around vague information and possibly a desire for revenge, is all too common. I hope we’re moving past that.
As iMonk asks, “How many pastors read their bibles anymore?” I find, at least in the CoC, that people who are quick to suggest church discipline don’t have a scriptural background for the practice; they have a theoretical-pragmatical background based on what they *think* scripture says about something.
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@ Teenage Re Quakers:
You get a lot of variation according to what Yearly Meeting you’re under. In my meeting, if someone is violating something covered by the Book of Discipline (notice what it’s called) and saying, “Well, I don’t believe it’s wrong,” then that person is considered to be out of unity with the rest of the body – and the question becomes to you want to come into unity or be cut off.
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I have absolutely no experience with “discipline” in this sense, though I have run across references to people being “churched” (kicked out of the church) a century ago for cussing, fighting, etc. I do know a bit more about equivalent practices in “other” religions that practice shunning or what have you.
One key question, which one other poster brought up, is–what sins are covered? Hypocrisy? Back-biting? Surely not. We all do that, and besides, a lot of the time it boils down to personal judgement. But can we really say that getting pregnant out of wedlock is a worse sin? (Come on, the only difference between her and 2/3 of the church is…visibility. Perhaps you should be praising her instead, for not having an abortion?)
Historically, the Church has been much more concerned about heresy than relatively pedestrian vices, yet it seems surreal to make such a big deal about airy theological issues, as opposed to behavior that hurts real people in some practical way.
For comparison’s sake, the Mormons specifically target sex and the drinking of various illicit beverages. Catholic confession is mostly left up to the conscience of the penitant, as regards subject matter brought up. (Does that count as “discipline”? They don’t get kicked out unless they’re public figures.) The Baha’is take away voting rights and/or expel members who “flagrantly” violate Baha’i law (sex or alchohol, typically) or challenge their religion’s authorities.
A few more questions, which I hope future installments may address:
1. Who watches the watchmen? In other words, what mechanisms are in place to rein in those doing the disciplining? To whom are they accountable? (Examples of ministers etc. getting into trouble are not difficult to find, and this is one area where greater discipline could solve a lot of problems.)
2. To what extent is “discipline” compatible with individual conscience? For example, if a member sincerely believes that x is moral, but the elders (or what have you) do not, do the elders automatically prevail? (Richard Nixon avoided censure from his fellow Quakers on this basis.)
3. How public is this process? For example, do you announce the sins in church, have a quiet inquisition, or just a personal visit?
On the issue of inactive members, one issue is that people move away, go to college, etc., yet may wish to maintain ties to their old church.
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Well given I run a blog on church discipline I’m happy you are starting this series. It is very hard to do Church discipline in a mainstream church.
You seem to have a pastoral focus so Rules for due process may be helpful, as well as Discipline procedures
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Of course you never said just sex imonk.
That doesn’t mean we didn’t hear it. 😛
As evangelicals, we are naturally just obsessed with sex. Almost by definition…
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I NEVER SAID JUST SEX.
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What about gluttony or envy? As a church discipline issue? Why just sex?
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Being that the only time Jesus ever got really ticked off was at the money changers, who most historians identify as precursors to the modern world financial system —
Don’t see much of that being disciplined in church circles these days. Just a lot of chatter from TV talking heads ….
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How does the privacy of the bedroom become this lurid, obvious thing, but when it comes to tithers just being mean-spirited, lying, or encouraging bad stuff, we never manage to have a thing to say to them?
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Anna A.
Actually, I find vague information to be scandalous. That was part of the smoke screen used in the situation I described in my first comment.
If the leadership is not willing to lay it all out on the table, then there is no way for the congregation to even know if there is a valid reason to discipline someone.
When pressed for details, the pastor refused to give any and tried to construe it as caring when nothing was further from the truth. The reason the congregation was never given any real reasons was because there weren’t any.
Everything revolved around interpersonal conflict, not sin.
If Church leadership is going to discipline, they should be obligated to share exactly why they are disciplining the member.
No hiding behind vagueness.
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George C, I think it’s because sexual issues are the most glaringly obvious. You may not be in a position to know if Joe is swindling his employer or Mary is abusive to her employees, but you certainly know all about it if Joe leaves his wife and moves in with his new girlfriend or Mary gets pregnant outside of marriage.
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As a Baptist I saw church discipline handled pretty well, as far as it looked to a non-involved member. Both were at the same church, involved lower level church leaders (one was the organist, the other recently ordained by the church as a preacher, was a Sunday School teacher.)
While the announcements were public, the information shared was vague enough that the average person wouldn’t know the details.
Naturally, I don’t know if it worked or not.
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As a Catholic who has converted from evangelical Protestantism, my mind vacillates on this issue. I completely understand it, but have trouble relating from a Catholic perspective. And it comes from the differing definition on the word “church,” I think.
There is very little of this kind of management of the congregation on a parochial basis in the RCC, which — I believe — is what is meant in the post. I’m sure religious get this kind of discipline all the time, but for the most part we lay persons never hear about it.
The kind of correction being discussed here among Catholics is of the personal spiritual “confession/direction” mode; the “discipline” is called penance. It is always available — scheduled for walk-ins Saturday afternoons and by appointment all other times, in this diocese.
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“Good grief. Do pastors read their Bibles anymore?”
Taking a line from “A Fish Called Wanda”
“Sure they can read it, they just don’t understand it.”
Personally I and others have come to conclude that many Christian pastors are very selective in their reading of what their roles are.
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Kenny Johnson
“As for living together. It is not a sin for an unmarried and unrelated man and woman to live together outside of wedlock. You’re right in assuming that the assumption would be that they’re having pre-marital sex. I think generally this would be something that someone would be talked to about as being a bad idea (especially if the man/woman in question are dating). ”
Catholics are told to “avoid the near occassion of sin” as we put ourselves in situations where we are **likely** to sin. Not that we **will** sin, or that it’s merely a **possibility** but the probability is high enough that we’re likely to succumb to sin. With sex, it’s pretty high probablility for some of us. It’s the Church’s way of saying, don’t set yourself up for failure.
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imonk,
Here is the official wording from my denomination (Presbyterian Church in America) on church discipline. In many ways, I liken church discipline to parenting children. True love for a child is shown by one’s willingness to pursue their sanctification even at the expense of temporary discomfort. I have seen church discipline handled poorly and I have seen it handled in the most beautiful and redemptive of ways. Accountability even for those doing the discipline is key! I think the wording from our Book of Church Order is good.
CHAPTER 27
Discipline – Its Nature, Subjects and Ends
27-1. Discipline is the exercise of authority given the Church by the Lord
Jesus Christ to instruct and guide its members and to promote its
purity and welfare.
The term has two senses:
a. the one referring to the whole government, inspection, training,
guardianship and control which the church maintains over its
members, its officers and its courts;
b. the other a restricted and technical sense, signifying judicial process.
27-2. All baptized persons, being members of the Church are subject to its
discipline and entitled to the benefits thereof.
27-3. The exercise of discipline is highly important and necessary. In its
proper usage discipline maintains:
a. the glory of God,
b. the purity of His Church,
c. the keeping and reclaiming of disobedient sinners. Discipline is
for the purpose of godliness (1 Timothy 4:7); therefore, it
demands a self-examination under Scripture.
Its ends, so far as it involves judicial action, are the rebuke of offenses, the
removal of scandal, the vindication of the honor of Christ, the promotion of the
purity and general edification of the Church, and the spiritual good of offenders
themselves.
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As part of a small Episcopal church in rural America, it’s probably not surprising that we’ve not had much in the way of church discipline over the years. We can’t even manage to defend the most basic tenets of orthodoxy at a national level, so I suppose that’s not a big surprise to anyone on this blog.
Luckily, I am under the leadership of an orthodox, evangelical priest, who has discipled a number of us, and we have a new community being born within a church that has been long filled with anger, gossip, manipulation and many examples of misuse of power. Tragic. As part of this intentional group, I have learned first hand about responsibility and accountability within Christian community, but that could not have happened without a firm grounding in the principals of a Christian community, Matt 18 included.
At several points in the last two years, we have privately, with prayer and in love, approached inviduals who were doing damage to the Body through their bad behaviors that had never been called into account. Always seeking reconciliation first, and the healing of relationships.
What has happened? Half the church has left. No willingness to consider their actions, or the effects on the rest of us, and certainly reconciliation was not in their vocabulary. Painful experiences on all sides. But worth it for the Gospel.
From where I stand, it’s much easier to be disciplined when you are already in a community where relationships based in mutuality, love, accountability and…Christ, of course. It’s not about legalisms, it’s about relationships.
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I find it interesting that when talking about church discipline the discussion always goes immediately to sexual issues and false teaching. — George C
That’s because when you add the word “sexual” to just about anything, people go crazy in just about every way imaginable.
(Hey, I have one foot in the Church, one in D&D, and one in Furry Fandom; I’ve SEEN most of the ways people can go sexually crazy. And Christians are no different, though they often go crazy in the opposite direction from everybody else.)
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Aliasmoi, trust me here I did not mean to endorse the dating of non-believers. I certainly just couldn’t see myself doing it. I agree with you in saying that it probably is not very wise the majority of the time, however, it is NOT sin.
There are numerable immense hermeneutic issues concerning the passage you brought up in 2 Corinthians. What exactly does it really mean to be yoked? I’ve heard it applied even to business: Do not go into business with people who aren’t saved.
It is on differing issues of interpretation like this one that I think have cause many churches to just throw up their hands in despair because it’s easier to just not do church discipline than have to debate and decide on all these numerous issues.
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My response to most of what I’m reading here:
Good grief. Do pastors read their Bibles anymore?
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It’s still amazing to me that Christian churches can have uglier political struggles than the Gentile world. — Treebeard
Not surprising to me.
When it’s a Church struggle, the God-Talk gets layered on and elevates everything to (literally) Cosmic Importance.
And when EVERYTHING Is Of Cosmic Importance And Every One of those Things Determines Where You WILL Spend Eternity…
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My Church has a formal disciplinary process, but the onus of instigating it is that the person has to go ask to be given the discipline — which we are encouraged to do, but not forced to do.
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Interesting post.
My long ago family was part of one of those traditions that practiced church discipline harshly. Taking communion required examination by the elders who might withhold the token that was necessary for you to take communion if your life did not measure up. I am sure that the examination was for both serious spiritual issues and personal vendettas. Many Scottish communion sets included both the cup and tray along with the token press.
We attend a relatively large SBC (4,000 who come each week) congregation that practices church discipline. We have made some real boneheaded decisions but the result of some of our biggest errors was restoration of the marraige. We meant it for ill, but God…
I like the notion that discipline is a function of pastoral care with the goal of restoration and fully integrated into the pastoral care of the congregation. Discipline is more focused on the leadership of the congregation than it is on the members although we do practice it in both groups.
We are not perfect by a long shot but church discipline is still done.
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Michael,
Exciting Series, enough to pull this lurker out.
Love your opening thoughts!
You’ve already alluded to this, but the success or failure of discipline or anything in the church comes back to getting the gospel right and our understanding of conversion right.
Getting those things right (as much as possible) is the difference between a church doing discipline ALL THE TIME, cause the church is full of unbelievers, who behave like unbelivers OR VERY RARELY, because the church is full of humble repentant followers of Christ, who really want to be delivered from sin, not just hell.
Good Luck!
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@Aliasmoi – If your convictions are so weak that simply being with an unbeliever will destroy them, maybe it’s time to rethink your convictions.
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George C:
I agree. Doctrine and sex are the immediate issues.
I have a different approach.
ms
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I think there are issues regarding how male elders can adequately care for, pastor and discipline increasing numbers of young, single, independent women within their congregations.
I’m not saying there should be female elders – that’s another discussion. But, within the traditional model, how do you pastor and guide these women?
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I find it interesting that when talking about church discipline the discussion always goes immediately to sexual issues and false teaching.
Both of these are legitimate reasons for the church to begin the process of church discipline, but it is sins against one another that Jesus addresses when He brings the subject up.
It seems He is more concerned about our relationships with each other than we are.
Considering what it is often like to be “part” of most churches, I wonder what would be the big loss in excommunication. I think this is one reason why church discipline has lost it’s value. The other big one would be the lack of anyone earning the right to have anything to say.
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Re: Dating an unbeliever,
The Bible says not to be unequally yoked with a non-believer (2 Corinthians 6:14).
Dating is for courtship. Courtship is for marriage. If you would not marry an unbeliever, why in the world would you date one? It is hard enough to remain pure/true to your core convictions when you’re in a relationship with a Christian. It would be just this side of impossible with an unbeliever.
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Austin:
There is a point in the process where they would be informed that they could not commune with us, but that would be well into the process described in Matt 18.
Comrade:
Because I grew up a closed communionist, I see both sides and I certainly see the problem from the standpoint of church discipline. I think there are ways to maintain church discipline and open communion, but not perfectly.
Someone can leave your church when refused and go to Southland and commune. It’s unrealistic to assume that a person in flagrant sin wouldn’t have altered their views on closed communion!
It really comes down to what leaders and church are willing to do to perpetuate meaningful membership. I don’t think we can duplicate Paul’s situation in I Cor 5 because there are so many other churches to go to.
ms
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Whoops… I meant moral indignation is jealousy with a halo…
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I’ll have to dig out the document and glance over it again. It is several years of meetings.
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I agree so heavily with the comment above about giving dynamite and matches to toddlers. Not that it’s an excuse to neglect church discipline though.
I remember while I was at a Christian college, we discusses church discipline in a theology class. The point that was made that we all seemed to accept was that the entire and only point and goal of church discipline was restoration, in line with the verse that says, “If your brother becomes caught up in sin, restore him GENTLY.” (Not exact wording)
Problem is, that last word is ALWAYS ignored. I have seen churches feebly attempting to exercise church discipline only from positions that were anything but gentle and aimed at restoration. It always came across as self-righteous indignation.
And I’m a huge believer that self-righteousness is jealousy with a halo.
And then the issue comes up on whether or not people believe something is sinful, and how do you resolve a disagreement over that? For instance, Imonk mentioned something about card playing. A church that took issue with this would be quickly emptied, and rightly so. Other issues include dating non-believers (which is NOT a sin imo, sorry Tim W), missing church on Sunday, failing to achieve the written standard of “active membership”… the list can go on and on.
Maybe that’s why many churches just dropped it. They simply could not agree over the nature of sin and exactly what constitutes it. Just thinking out lout on that one.
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Thanks Kenny, that clears up a lot.
So what is the response(punishment?) to these infractions?
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Michael,
Glad to see you tackling this issue and I’ll be reading your posts to learn more about this. Church discipline really is the elephant in the room in a lot of churches. Again, I appreciate your thoughts.
Wyman
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amen, Rich Shipe
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Andy D,
Generally discipline comes after either unrepentant or pre-meditated sin on the part of a member. The sin doesn’t need to be just sexual sin.
As for living together. It is not a sin for an unmarried and unrelated man and woman to live together outside of wedlock. You’re right in assuming that the assumption would be that they’re having pre-marital sex. I think generally this would be something that someone would be talked to about as being a bad idea (especially if the man/woman in question are dating).
I don’t know if you could go as far as calling dating a non-believer a sin. In fact the Bible says to stay with a spouse if they are not a believer. Again, this would be more of an issue of a bad idea idea. I’ve never known someone to be disciplined for dating a non-believer, but they would likely have someone talk to them about it.
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Sarah:
For the record, rabbis are traditionally advised to have sex with their wives on Friday night, so as to have the most joyful Sabbath possible. 🙂
I’m curious as to the range of issues dealt with by Protestant ecclesiastical tribunals… Premarital relations, spousal abuse and public drunkenness have been mentioned. What about divorce settlements, inheritance and property disputes or fighting/assault cases between members? Is the principle that one should never press civil charges against another congregant? I confess, I was unaware of this aspect of evangelical churches.
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Defense of the Gospel in the hearts of victims is one of the huge benefits of church discipline. For example, if a husband is leaving his family and the church doesn’t take a stand and follow Matthew 18 than I think the gospel is damaged in the hearts and minds of his children.
Little kids don’t understand why mom and dad are breaking up but they know it is wrong and that it hurts. If the church doesn’t do the painful and hard thing of stepping in to make the truth known than the church is essentially putting their arms around the offending parents at the expense of the children. The child is harmed in the pain of the separation yet the church acts like there was no harm. Why would that child want to be a part of that church or that God when they grow up?
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In my Yearly Meeting church discipline is called being “eldered,” and while not wanting to be eldered goes a long way toward keeping me in line – it can also be a positive thing. Like if I’m just going through something spiritually/mentally/emotionally a more senior member will come along side of me and help me through it. That is also eldering.
Austin, with your pregnant church member besides going after her and trying to bring her back to church – you may need to remind other church members about loving her and while not saying what she did was okay not heaping condemnation on her head. When I was 17 and had just had a baby out of wedlock – I started going to church when the baby was about a month old. The pastor and his wife were wonderful to me. They were like an extra set of parents to me – in some ways they were better than my parents. It was other church members who were horrible – making comments about girls who get themselves pregnant and then have the nerve to think they should be *allowed* to keep their babies. The pastor actually got on one person for the nasty things they were saying about me and to me.
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OK…I’m dying to know: how did the “running around naked during the 11:00 service ” idea go over ??
Just asking. (pictures not that necessary)
Greg R
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iMunk, I have records of the men’s meetings from my great-grandfather’s Southern Baptist church during the 1880s. It is fascinating reading.
On more than one occasion the men formed committees to go and talk with a brother who was abusing his wife, or engaged in public drunkenness.
There was also a lengthy discussion about whether it was appropriate for the pastor to have relations with his wife on Sunday. The records give no clue as to why this issue came up, but apparently the men of the church were concerned.
If a church knows there is abuse going on in a family, I definitely think it is appropriate to act. I don’t think the congregation needs to be peering into their pastor’s bedroom window on Sunday evening though.
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As an outsider this is really making me curious. What warrants church discipline? Seems like most people are talking about birth out of wedlock, or living together before mariage(is that a sin in itself, or does it just imply they are having sex?). What would be the punishment for these things?
Tim W. what is wrong with Christians dating non believers?
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As an Irish Catholic, I’m reading this thread with a wry smile on my face because, ladies and gentlemen, when you start discussing church discipline – then welcome to the fun world of public opinion versus the repressive, misogynist, homophobic, racist, sexist, whatever other bad label you can think of mean old church.
Particularly in cases of sexual morality – then you’re accused of wanting to go back to the bad old days, when the parish priest was beating the courting couples out of the bushes with a blackthorn stick!
We’ve had cases involving schools and hospitals – I don’t know how American denominations are set up in this instance; what are your opinions on, for example, teachers in a church school? Like this article about how a repeat of a case from 1982 could happen again, even in enlightened modern Ireland:
http://www.herald.ie/opinion/comment/have-we-learned-the-lessons-of-the-pregnant-teacher-case-1474317.html
“Today, single pregnancy is a fact of life and we expect teachers, in common with every other profession, to live with each other without benefit of clergy. So much so that if anyone talks of “living in sin,” the reference is ironic.
Most people, at the time of the Eileen Flynn case, could not understand how a famously liberal and progressive judge could have ruled against her. They misunderstood the judgement, the reason the Holy Faith congregation took the case against her — and the factor which may lead to a version of it happening again in the future.
The judge vindicated the right of a religious order providing specifically Catholic education in a Catholic ethos, to remove a teacher whose lifestyle did not support that ethos.
The nuns didn’t want rid of Eileen because she’d had a baby. They just didn’t believe they could credibly promulgate explicit Catholic values like chastity and no sex before marriage, if all the pupils knew that one of their teachers was openly living a life that contradicted that.
In an Ireland increasingly sceptical, not just about those values, but about the credibility of a Church troubled by clerical child sex abuse to preach and protect those values, the Eileen Flynn case was seen as nuns punishing a sexually active women and ignoring the fact that she was a good teacher.
Nobody heard what the nuns were trying to say, which was: “We’re a Catholic school, therefore our teachers should live Catholic lives.”
Transpose the issue to Islam, and it makes immediate sense. Nobody would expect a Muslim school to employ a female teacher who (a) didn’t cover her head in public, (b) drank alcohol,(c) went around with a man to whom she wasn’t married.
The issue of whether people who believe in a particular religion should be entitled to have their children educated in a school which demonstrates that religion in every aspect of its operation has not gone away.
Which is why a version of the Eileen Flynn case may happen again.
Even in these changed times.”
Opinions? Comments? And I haven’t even touched the topic of American Catholic pro-choice/”abortion rights” politicians and the automatic excommunication/denial of communion controversies 🙂
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I don’t know of any Church that would do great job at Church discipline. The examples I have seen of it were horrible.
At one point in college I was dating someone from the Church of Christ. His ex-girlfriend had left him several months before and gotten involved witbh another person….intimately.
He went to her church and reported her…you know…just because he was concerned about her soul, not because he was mad, or jealous, or anything. I didn’t believe him for a minute…and having gained insight into his soul, broke up with him.
My other experience with church discipline occurred in a non-denominational church that our family had been a part of for years. WE loved that church. WE left it when the pastor began to become heavily influenced by deliverance ministry and tried to make the church follow him headlong into it….Except half the church was very uncomfortable with the “teaching” and saw it as unbiblical and superstitious. The most vocal opponent to the teaching was “dis-fellowshipped” in the middle of a Sunday morning service…in front of his two daughters who were home from college.
There was no valid reason given. There was no open door for reconciliation. The congregation was asked to simply “trust the pastor” that this needed to be done. Having been part of the worship team and knowing the back-story, I knew it was done because the pastor had a personality conflict with the church member. They didn’t get along, and his vocal opinion was irritating to the pastor.
It was pretty much a “don’t let the door hit you in the a** on the way out” kind of thing.
It was horrible and traumatic and split the church in half.
Very few people are mature and wise enough to institute church discipline.
It’s like giving dynamite and matches to toddlers.
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Thanks for the great post, iMonk. Church discipline is indeed greatly needed. A word of caution, though, to echo what some others have said: church discipline is a powerful weapon for harm in the wrong hands. A senior pastor,using church discipline without the accountability of a good group of elders and/or deacons, can ruin lives and reputations to further his own agenda. We must promote church discipline, yes, but we must do it with extreme caution and with a strong emphasis on congregational accountability for those leaders charged with carrying it out.
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I came from a church that used discipline. I was very young when I saw that last of it. I really do not remember much of it, but it was done in the front of church on a Sunday morning. Some young man had basicly stopped going to church and was living outside of the community of belivers(calvinist of the dutch variety). They excommunicated him. He was not there but his family was. Seemed kinda harsh, even to a 10 year old(as I was at the time) This was back in 1980 or so. According to my family, public church discipline was common when they were growing up. I have not heard of it since in the denomination.
I have not been discipled by the church for my apostasy. It would not bother me if they did(in fact I would think it fun.) But I would not want it done to embarrass my family. To my mind, it is done more for keeping the others inline than helping the person they are disciplining. That is one of the reasons my father gave me for why they no longer do it.
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I think a consistent practice of church discipline is one of the most important things a congregation can do.
Correcting an erring member is extremely difficult for pastors, elders, and anyone else involved. I think that is why many churches avoid the practice and choose to look the other way when they become aware of public sin within the body, especially sexual sin.
Therefore, the pastors, elders and other leaders have a strong incentive to ensure that the clearly and consistantly teaches what the Bible has to say about such things, as prevention is always easier than having to confront a sinful situation. Pastors and elders have an incentive to discuss how they would handle these depressingly common situations before they come up. When they do come up, they can respond with one unified, firm and loving voice.
I think that neglecting the discipline of the congregation is very much like neglecting discipline in the family: you spare yourself confrontation in the short term but invite disaster in the long term.
Also, as a sinner myself, I am glad that I can depend on my fellow elders, pastors and other brothers and sisters to call me to repentence should they become aware of something sinful and stupid that I am up to. I need that guidance and accountability in my Christian walk.
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I wonder if church discipline could be applied to areas of theological belief.
As a Presbyterian, I am constantly amazed at the beliefs expoused by my fellow congregants. From the idea that there was no bodily resurrection of Christ to Christ being a women to scripture being myth without authority, it seems to me that there is debate and searching, but a lack of clearly established truths.
Such is the influence of liberal theologies on the Presbyterian Church, I suppose.
The Westminster confession and the catechisms seem a good place to start. I would have a hard time trusting an elder who did not at least adhere to what I would consider the basics, such as the bodly resurrection of Christ and the authority of scripture.
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From the larger American perspective I don’t know how you could define a church or temple as anything other than a voluntary association. The last Pew survey I saw that covered it stated that 40% of Americans have switched their faith from the one they were born into to another one. That implies a lot of movement and, to a great extent, an undertstanding of faith home as a voluntary relationship. After all, if your Presbyterian church disfellowships you, there’s always another faith home to fellowship in.
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Church discipline lost out to…Open communion
Whoa, whoa, whoa, WHAT!?!?!
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This is going to be a good series!
Where I pastor, they seem pretty eager to discipline and I’m lucky that the most gung-ho discipliners aren’t part of the leadership structure. Some want to discipline for lack of attendance or some other stuff like that.
I see value in discipline when done from a community-based perspective. Leaving aside the issue in 1 Cor 5, it seems to me that the worst “church sin” in the NT is that of divisiveness in whatever form it takes (false teaching, gossip, etc.). I would be for using discipline carefully to root out divisiveness inside the church. If we lose members over it, how committed were they to begin with?
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Justin,
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I’m not exactly young anymore at almost 33, but I find myself with the same sentiment. I don’t know how much I respect and trust the church leadership. I’m suspicious of their intents and motivations. I often feel that things come from more of a place of judgment than love. And the truth is, many in leadership see themselves as managers, not shepherds. I’m generalizing when I say these things. I do love and respect many church leaders (in and outside my specific church).
I’ve had friends who were hurt by bad church discipline.
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“If it doesn’t hurt you to withdraw fellowship from this person, you don’t have the right to discipline them.â€
that is excellent!
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[I posted too early above]
iMonk,
Great insights. Church discipline is a lost art. I’ll be interested to read what you have to say in the series. Personally, I think it is almost impossible to do church disipline well as long as point “b” is true.
Most of the discipline I see is done poorly. Often, it is abusive.
I remember in high school that one of my classmates was paraded up front to confess her sins to the church and ask forgiveness to avoid discipline (she was single and pregnant). The sad thing was that a lot of the other kids were sleeping around and were still in leadership positions. Because the one girl’s sins were obvious, she was made an example of. That’s not right.
I think that discipline is biblical. I think that churches should use discipline. But discipline should be painful for the church community. It only “works” when there is a depth of relationship that withdrawing fellowship hurts everyone involved and pains the disciplined person to come back. Otherwise its just “making an example of someone.” Perhaps the rule of thumb is, “If it doesn’t hurt you to withdraw fellowship from this person, you don’t have the right to discipline them.”
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Out of curiosity how do you define open communion? Would you consider a church that passes out communion to anyone sitting in the pew while explaining that it is only for those who are believers to be open?
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Thankfully, as you pointed out, the atmosphere in many or our Southern Baptist churches is changing. The small church I attend is just one example of a Southern Baptist church that is in the prcoess of recognizing the necessity, and recovering the practice of church discipline.
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one more thing–
at some point in addressing this could you touch on the role of women (in churches/denominations that don’t ordain women as deacons or elders) with regards to walking with those women who are in various discipline/pre-discipline (if there is such a thing) situations? i think it is necessary and good, but some male pastors, elders, & deacons might not think about it and/or might not know how to implement it and/or might think it is unbiblical.
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iMonk,
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During college I was a student leader in a campus ministry and each semester we would have to kick someone out for dating an unbeliever. Eventually some of my fellow leaders began dating unbelievers themselves. Some were open about it and chose to quit rather than receive the inevitable shunning, whereas others just kept quiet about it and kept their unbelieving girlfriends/boyfriends a secret.
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thanks for “going there…” looking forward to reading more/thinking more about this issue.
i’ve yelled at others during discussions about all of this. trying to repent of that.
very timely for me/my church/my community.
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Thanks for the post. I wouldn’t attend a church that didn’t have at least some measure of church discipline. I need it. My kids need to know about it. It’s really a loving, body of Christ thing, and it’s amazing what happens when you submit to Him in this way.
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I believe #b (the loss of church as community and the rise of church as voluntary participation) is most of the problem right there. No one thinks of church discipline as a loving Christian mentor trying to help us follow Jesus better, because they didn’t sign up for that sort of relationship. They just want to go someplace where every Sunday they sing happy songs to Jesus, listen to a motivational speech, make small talk with a few like-minded folks, and that’s about all.
Of course this is two-sided: Pastors don’t think of church discipline as part of the discipleship process. They think of it as dealing with people once they’ve become problems. By the time it’s ever called “church discipline,” it’s long past the point where the mentoring fell by the wayside.
I’m glad you’re talking about this from the pastoral end. Too much has been said about non-committal laymen, but if a church never teaches otherwise, such behavior is to be expected.
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I wonder how discipline could even happen without the accuser’s freight of hypocrisy and need to punish coming along with it. I’ve never met a Christian who’d resolved an idea of Christian discipline that wasn’t somehow adjudicated by their own artifice of nagging conflicts, shame and self-contempt. We flog each other a lot when we’re afraid to flog ourselves; if there are Christians out there real enough to discipline such that it leads to discipleship, they should talk to me.
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I know some folks may howl about this, but the two most obvious things that are not often addressed are “shacking up” and illegitimate children.
Most folks are afraid to touch it b/c
1. they may have a family member involved in it
2. are afraid one day they will
3. are convinced their own shortcomings prevent them from holding others to standards
But they miss the point. Church discipline is not the pastor holding someone accountable. It is the church holding someone accountable. The church has that authorityt and the integrity.
Imonk,
I think I have picked up on the fact that you are a open communion guy (I might be wrong) If so correct me.
But how would you handle as a pastor a person living in known open sin coming to the Lord’s table as an open communionist?
Should a minister simpley give Paul’s warning and let folks judge themselves or do we have a greater more active role to play?
I really don’t know how I feel, so know I’m not trying to box you in here.
Austin
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Michael, you touch on the real issue, IMHO:
I’m going to be exploring the pastoral care aspect… A lot of this grows out of the failure of caring and shepherding…
The issue is trust. We “younger members” simply don’t trust the deacons/elders/pastors, and usually with good reason. The abuses and neglect suffered over the past decades in the name of programs and ministry show where their intents lie. Until pastoring and shepherding (same thing?) get back to the nurturing and feeding of the flock rather than the management and supervision of the herd, there will be no leg to stand on with regard to discipline.
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This has been a nagging question for me. I went through a divorce 4 years ago. Long story short I confessed to the elders of my church my fault in the divorce.
However, my ex left that church and attends another church. I am glad she attends as she has custody of my kids and they love to go to church. There is an issue of her relationship with a gentleman at her work which I found out had gone on 2 years before our divorce and still goes on to this day. They do not live together I know there has been and I guess we could still say adultry going on. No one at her church is aware of this relationship but everyone at her place of employment is very much aware of this relationship.
I realize we all have our struggles. However, isn’t one of the biggest criticisms of Christ followers today the fact we often live our lives no differently from the world. Would this be a situation where church discipline should be applied?
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I think the concerns you mentioned (your second list, 1-10) are legitimate. I’ve seen a kind of discipline exercised because of disagreements between church leaders on non-essentials. One leader who was more gifted and fruitful than the others was excommunicated because he didn’t go along with the program. But there was nothing in his behavior or ministry that deserved such a strong response. (Admittedly, the guy was a difficult person to work with, but he didn’t deserve discipline for it.)
It’s still amazing to me that Christian churches can have uglier political struggles than the Gentile world.
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I agree Imonk,
And I get the point. Our inactive folks were folks who I had not seen either as a member or a pastor for over 8 years. Some of them were not even known by anyone.
I think we may have done a great deal of dammage to church discipline by focusing on minor things like the card playing and dancing. our old minutes have the same accounts. they sort of disappeared after the 20’s. i wonder why that was?
How do you feel about the argument that the deacons should be more involved in church discipline than the pastor? I’m not sure how I feel about that, I can see how if the deacons head up part of it, it can protect the pastor from charges of beign a dictator.
my whole idea is that church discipline is done by “the church” not any one group.
Having a regenerate church membership with no discpline is crazy. it just doesn’t make sense.
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I am just glad to hear that I am not the only one who sees this need. I have been at my current church for 18 months, and have seen at least 5 issues that should have been handled through church discipline (at least the beginning steps of). None of the issues were handled correctly, including the Sunday School teacher that was shacking up with her non-Christian fiance. I have basically been asked to stop brining it up (the price of being the young associate pastor). Our churches need church discipline, because that would give us the tools for reconciliation that we are missing in church today.
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I”m not convinced that Jesus was sitting up an attendance standard when he gave us the information in Matt 18. Meaningful church membership should allow people the opportunity to go through times in their lives that they don’t show up for everything. I do fear the Lord’s Accountants on that one. But I agree with you and many other people that the category of the inactive member is a farce.
If a person is beyond the church’s ability to minister to them, they should be removed. But if they are working a bad shift, going through a divorce, in a season of doubt because of cancer, in a nursing home, etc, they are still part of the family.
I’m going to be exploring the pastoral care aspect, not how to reduce the church down to the “real members” as some of my Calvinist friends want.
A lot of this grows out of the failure of caring and shepherding that I have just experienced, and I’d like to help some younger leaders to think about why Jesus said all that stuff in Matt 18 that so many people misunderstand.
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Imonk,
Right on. I agree whole heartedly that church dicipline has lost out becasue folks are afraid of two things. Loosing members and being sued.
As a pastor I believe whole heartedly in church discipline. It needs to follow a few guidlines.
1. Be for major issues only. (not personal griviecnes)
2. Be done with the idea of restoration as the ultimate goal not exclusion
3. Be done in a consistant and clear manner.
A few examples from my ministry.
Our church has at best 35 folks in Sunday School. We had about 150 on the church list. That was dishonest, unhealthy, and stupid. After a very long and heated few months and business meetings I was able to convince the church to go through a process of trying to locate our “members” . Those that did not respond were dropped completely. Others were put on inactive lists. I would have just as rather dropped all of them. We left an inactive list b/c a lot of folks were afraid of getting sued and then there is a whole issue involveing the cemetary and who can and can not be buried there. It was a really big deal.
Second,
We have a young lady who was an active member, begin to slip away, b/c pregant out of wedlock i.e. I tried to get in touch with her, not to yell at her but to just ask her to come back. I could not get even her family mebers to give me a good address. After a while, I tried to get the deacons of the church to go with me and talk with her. Again, not to yell at her, but to tell her that more now than ever she needed a church family and that she should come back to the church, make aknowledgements for her benefit and the benefit of others, and get back with us.
No one had the stomach for it. I was left with making it an issue myself or going it alone.
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This looks like a very promising series. You said numerous things just in this introduction that resonate with my experience and ideals, and I look forward to seeing the rest of the post.
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