Several of you sent me links to a quote from National Association of Evangelicals President Leith Anderson saying that yours truly was 1) somehow like Hugo Chavez (??) and 2) was in the midst of my own personal evangelical collapse. (“Autobiographical.” Unfortunate word choice.)
I decided not to respond, mostly because I know that keeping up the hype that there are 35 million actual evangelicals (as opposed to about 15 million evangelicals and a lot of wallpaper) must be time consuming.
But I will say this: the implication that my evangelicalism is collapsing is an unfortunate thing to say about anyone you don’t know. Maybe President Anderson needs to contact me and let me know where this autobiographical collapse is occurring. What “current events” took control of my mind and led me into panic mode? Am I under surveillance by the NAE? Can they read my mind? Hand me some tin foil…quick!
You see, the fact is that I’m more evangelical and Protestant than ever, and I’m more optimistic about being evangelical than ever. Just because I think the balloon is deflating doesn’t mean I am not optimistic about the great things that are happening.
I agree with President Anderson in all the points he makes regarding the next ten years of evangelicalism world wide. I don’t think his spin, however, has much to do with what I wrote, but then there’s no evidence in his comments that he ever got near part III of my CSM piece, where I say exactly what he said. He can work it out with the ARIS study. My conscience is clear.
Why is my evangelicalism not collapsing?
For starters, despite the fact that the person I love most in the whole world becoming Roman Catholic, and despite the fact that no evangelicals I know can ever make anything like the following ad, I’m still evangelical and happy to be evangelical for the rest of my life.
If you can watch that ad and not be moved, you’re better than me. The fact that there’s no mention of purgatory, Marian dogma, infallibility, indulgences, other Christians, transubstantiation, annulments, relics or a dozen other relevant parts of the discussion doesn’t stop me from being impressed, and frankly, saddened that my team is mostly known these days for Joel Osteen, R-rated expositions of the Song of Solomon and gay bishops.
My evangelicalism was doing real well in church this morning as I watched 6 of our high school students be baptized. One from India, one from China, four from the United States. All of them under my preaching for a year or more. Half of them in my Bible classes 5 hours a week.
The Indian young man is the first Christian in a family of Hindus. He has no idea what his parents will say.
The Chinese girl goes back to the unknown.
I leave that baptism and grab a bite of lunch. I give a girl an ESV Study Bible (Thanks IM readers.) I go to my office where I interview a 14 year old African American, befriended by a Methodist woman who is willing to raise the small amount of money we ask for a summer school fee. The boy’s mother is there, but she hates him because his father was no good. She won’t let him near her or even come to the house. He has no father and has all thehistory and attitude, all the stereotypical problems of a million other African American teenage boys from the same background. He’s spent 5 months in a diversion program and now wants a fresh start.
I’m sitting here, with the power to give him a chance at an education, paid for by evangelicals, because of the kindness of evangelicals, because of the Gospel. Because of the Gospel. The question isn’t is this ministry collapsing. The question is why aren’t there 10,000 ministries like this one? And will evangelicals keep this one going through the hard times. (We’ll graduate 50 in 3 weeks, and a few years ago, several of the graduates were that young man.)
This is what I’ve done with my life for 17 years. I lead a ministry. I evangelize. I answer questions. I teach the Gospel. I preach. I invite students to Christ.
I don’t want to do anything else, and I want the students I reach to reach their worlds.
I’m mentoring preachers. I’m blogging and podcasting. I’m going to write a book about Jesus, one way or another. I’m going to encourage my audience to start churches, change churches, challenge churches. I’m going to go to Cornerstone ’09 and see what evangelicalism’s counter culture looks like. I’m going to Advance ’09 and celebrate the fact that we’re in the midst of a reformation theology resurgence we never could have anticipated. Flawed as it is, it’s wondrous and everyone who isn’t a reformation Christian can be jealous.
I’m going to work with all my might to be an evangelical on a mission to bring evangelicalism out of the wilderness and into the Kingdom God has promised.
So, contrary to reports in Newsweek, I am not projecting a collapse out into the world that’s actually happening within me. I’m doing just fine, President Anderson. Thanks for your concern. I rejoice in the good that’s happening and plan to keep doing good till my health breaks or God calls me home.
I want my son and new daughter-in-law, my daughter, my son-in-law and every student I’ve ever had to be an evangelical, sola scriptura believing, missional, evangelistic, passionately Gospel-centered believer. That’s how I’m living my life. I’m going to keep giving to Gospel for Asia, Ravi, the SBC IMB and World Vision. I’m going to keep working at that Baptist school I never mention until they fire me or bury me.
What are you doing with your life, reader?
Blogging? Twittering? Sleeping? Complaining? Doing nothing and calling it something?
Or are you living an “evangelical” life? Are you part of the collapse, or part of the hopeful future?
Why not ask yourself if anyplace, anywhere is different because you are on the planet….living as an evangelical. Are you applauding the coming collapse, or working to strengthen one of our many tents that can survive and grow?
The Internet Monk Archives 
Ron,
That’s one thing that I like about this place. I know what Michael believes, and I know that he’s not going to change it. I appreciate the reading material that he has suggested, also.
Besides, we have the same opinion of “cafeteria Catholics.” GRIN
Besides, we do agree on some stuff, like the Nicene Creed, the importance of evangelism, the need for safe places
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First of all I’m not angry wiith you, and I had no intent to insult you. I was conveying what I sensed as I’ve read your recent posts. Also, it’s your blog and your posts. By nature people will analyze. If I were you I’d stop posting completely if you want no personal analysis.
“Who has more problems than whom? On the Gospel, they do. On lots of other stuff, they do. On a bunch of stuff that we ought to know better about, we do.”
A general statement that I agree with. Of course item one in your list is what it all hinges on, and the fact that they have the Gospel wrong warrants a strong statement. Please understand, I know there are many problems with Evangelicalism. I do not bury my head in the sand over these matters. I have voiced concern within my church about certain things you’ve pointed out.
It’s my Catholic background that makes me so passionate about maintaining clarity as Catholics as Evangelicals interact. I fear for the Catholic and Evangelical who want to just get along. I’m not talking about being civil, which we should be, but the notion that we can have these disagreements and in the end everything is all right is unsettling. Your blog seems to be a place where Catholics can feel comfortable being Catholic. It’s the Catholic comments I’ve read that have a tone of “Imonk, he’s an Evangelical, and sure he disagrees with us, but that really doesn’t matter” and I just don’t think that’s helpful. Maybe I’m wrong about that, but it’s what I sense.
Mostly this comes down to whether Catholic or Protestant, we have too many people who do not know what they believe, and that happens in both camps. Maybe that’s what you’re trying to get at and I can appreciate that.
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Ron:
You’ve totally lost me. You sound like one of those people who can’t be happy till I stop lamenting and start a team cheer.
I love Hudson Taylor and I’m sure would weep over a properly made film.
Who has more problems than whom? On the Gospel, they do. On lots of other stuff, they do. On a bunch of stuff that we ought to know better about, we do.
What does it matter if I lament the Reformation? The point of the whole piece is how I’m living my life as an evangelical. Where have I told someone to become a Catholic on here? Maybe the Catholics could point that out.
I loathe personal comments that analyze the writer and poster. What you’re doing here making this about me is the one reason I close comments.
But this time I’ll just return fire: You appear to be someone who wants “Reformation good, Catholics Bad” on a requisite number of posts. If I don’t say it, then’ll you insinuate it for me. At the end of the day, you’d be far happier if I said the pope was the anti Christ and Rome the whore of Revelation than if I say those are my brothers and I lament our divisions.
Now, since I don’t know you at all, just the stuff you write, get angry at that and say I’ve shorted you. Then you’ll know how I feel when you run your mouth about me.
ms
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Amen !
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Anderson is discomfited when someone points out that his base of power is diminishing. And so he lashes out.
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“Ron, I don’t understand what you mean about Michael’s “apologetic sense towards Rome?†Can you please explain what you mean by that.”
Anna, thank you for asking. When I read Michael’s critiques of Evangelicalism, the tone is almost we have more problems than Rome. Sure enough we have a lot of housecleaning to do, but I’m bothered by what seems to be an admiration for things that ignore the cause of separation.
As for Catholics posting here, what is your goal? To bring us home or as Benedict says, point out that us Protestants are in peril? Do you enjoy reading an Evangelical rail against his home team? Or is it the American brand which some of my Catholic friends represent (Oh that Benedict, we don’t pay attention to everything he says). Let’s find things to agree on and push the stink under the carpet. As a former Catholic I find that absurd. Is the Pope the Vicar of Christ or isn’t he?
The fact that I’m not sensing any real challenge to what is wrong with Catholicism makes me wonder. I must be a better man than Michael since the ad he is enamored with held no sway over me. Show me a clip about Hudson Taylor and then I’ll get emotional.
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Ron,
Michael’s policy, at least as I understand it, is that he does not want people on here trying to convert Christians from one denomination to the other. And while there are important doctrinal differences, I think he presumes Catholics to be Christian. Better that we all direct our evangelism efforts to the unbelievers.
So if your desire is to help Catholics see the error of their ways and join the Reformation, this is probably not the best place to do it.
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Curtis,
Thank you for your comment. I agree that we have found a safe place here to meet other Christians, and to share what we have. (and drool over what we don’t have.)
Ron, I don’t understand what you mean about Michael’s “apologetic sense towards Rome?” Can you please explain what you mean by that.
All of us Catholics recognize that Michael isn’t going to and shouldn’t cross the Tiber. His ministy (and may it flourish to the end of time) is evangelical. His theology is evangelical.
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“so we refrain from seriously dwelling on them”
I too, yearn for a day when we have unity in spirit. But that is not today, and we of necessity need to be serious about doctrinal differences. It is a disservice to Protestants and Catholics when we minimize them.
There are times to pick berries and hum a happy song, and I for one enjoy that. But, that cannot be the theme for a serious look at our faith, and I suspect Michael would consider this blog a serious look at the Christian faith.
There is almost a snideness in this supposed harmonious world represented by the commenters on this blog. Sort of a “we are above the bickering” (unless it is potshots at Leith Anderson). Well, the bickering is oftentimes for valid reasons (e.g I’ll bicker with anyone who praises Joel Osteen and yes, even some individuals like Dobson).
I understand that Michael has complaints against what is largely perceived as Evangelicalism in this country, and I agree with many of the observations, but for that to turn into a wistful sense of what Catholicism is renders his opinions suspicious. He is forecasting this tearing down and re-building of Evangelicalism into a more biblical and gospel centered model. That’s fine, but I don’t understand the apologetic sense towards Rome.
Maybe I’m missing something. If I am please help me understand what the point of this blog is.
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Ron,
I think there is an unspoken agreement here on iMonk that certain intractable issues will never be solved on this blog and by the posters represented here, so we refrain from seriously dwelling on them, which might explain the “pithiness” of certain responses…
This site is kinda like the de-militarized zone where we put away our weapons, meet in the middle, pick berries and have a picnic together. I think we understand that the trenches await us when we leave but we enjoy our pax while we can.
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“The Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648. It is now 2009.”
You do realize it did not resolve the reasons for the Reformation. Sometimes I wonder how many people believe Protestants are still protesting.
Maybe I’m just a cretin since I don’t think we’ve advanced beyond the historic division and resolved all the silly doctrinal matters which the Reformers stood firmly against.
I do think Michael writes some great things, and it’s nice that Protestants and Catholics can dialogue here, but your pithy self-amusing comments don’t change the facts. The link below tells me what Rome thinks, and although Catholics may shun the notion, that just tells me they are not true Catholics since you do not have the option to oppose such teachings.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070710/pope_statement_070710/20070710?hub=World
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God has a plan and it is a successful plan – to bring people from every nation, people, and language, to Himself. We are seeing this happen right before our eyes. I believe God’s plan is working and will continue to work. I don’t think the plan to Republicanize America and to win a “culture war” is going to go very far – and it is not really all that closely related to the gospel message – which is that God loves everyone and not just a righteous few.
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Aw, but Headless – it’s such fun!
Around these parts, we were evangelized between the 5th and 6th centuries, so we’ve heard a lot of “Christianity – ur doin’ it rong!” long before Martin, Jean, or Huldrych ever cracked open the Bible.
Plus, our experiences with Reformed missions to the heathen Irish Papists tended to be from the likes of Oliver Cromwell, so – yeah, bit of a jaundiced view there 🙂
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You’ve now become Hugo Chavez for speaking up and saying things that precious few are willing to hear, let alone act on? What does that make people like Shane Claiborne? Ché Guevara?
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I like that you mentioned giving to Gospel For Asia. I picked up the article, because I have a search engine that emails me whenever Gospel For Asia is mentioned. it is a wonderful ministry, which gives 100% of your donations to the purpose intended.
Thanks!
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Ron:
The Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648. It is now 2009.
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“If Catholics want to come home, they should come home to historic orthodox Christianity”
That’s me headed for the Bosphorus, so 😉
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Imonk,
Been reading for awhile and love the site…great stuff. Thanks for your work here; I think it means a lot to many of us that someone takes the time to present and wrestle with it all and you do it well.
Ron,
“true character of the gospel” could you explain what that means?
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A should add that I agree with much of your analysis concerning American evangelicalism. It has been too political and often lacks the true character of the gospel. We would do well to have a seismic shakeup to root out the garbage.
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Michael,
I am also not looking for an argument on that age old battle. And no doubt Protestentism suffers its errors. And I’m not so pollyannish to believe that the Reformation would or will usher in perfect theology. That being said, it was a painful course to walk away from Roman Catholicism. It continues to be painful to see so many Catholic friends meander through life without considering their beliefs, and dare I say not be challenged by the church to understand what they believe.
I have journeyed in my Christian walk for nearly twenty years. I’ve had many conversations and studied hard. I’ve learned there is no perfect church, and I’ve even come to understand that certain facets of the Catholic church should be well observed and practiced by all.
In the end as long as the Vatican continues to assert its doctrines of salvation, etc., there can be no peace. I will join you in praying for it, but I am not so ready to join hands concerning unity in faith as many are want to do.
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Ron:
I obviously view the RCC considerably differently from the LDS on historical grounds. I believe both Protestants and Catholics have errors to repent of, and the division we call the Reformation was certainly not the mythic pure quest for perfect theology it’s made out to be. (And I say that as a sola loving Reformation Christian.) Both sides preserved some good and some bad. I pray that both sides discover true unity in reformation and renewal.
You and I differ greatly on this and I won’t be pursuing an argument here in the comments. The issues are old and well known to all.
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Over the weekend, I read David Kinnaman’s (President of the Barna Group) “UnChristian: What a New Generation Really Thinks About Christianity. . . And Why It Matters”. I could be wrong, but I don’t think Mr. Anderson has read it.
As Boomers (I am one) age, what the Buster and Mosaic generations think about Christianity will really matter, and in large numbers, they don’t think much of it, at least as it is right now. For example, according to the Barna Group’s scientific research, these two generations have crucial impressions, such as the church is:
judgmental 87%
hypocritical 85%
old-fashioned 78%
too political 75%
out of touch with reality 72%
insensitive to others 70%
boring 68%
My husband and I are nearing the end of raising three “Mosaics”, and they are all very committed to Christ. But despite that, I would venture to say that they would count themselves in the percentages above. Because so many younger people feel this way about the church and Christianity, it is almost certain that there is a coming evangelical collapse. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing, particularly if a more Christ-like church emerges, which is what I think will happen.
So, yes, I think Mr. Anderson just simply missed the point.
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As a former Roman Catholic I am confused by your apparent ambiguity towards the teachings of Rome. The reformation is not ended. You were moved by the ad for what reason? Would a similar ad by the LDS affect you the same way? As for Osteen I reject the idea that he and others of his ilk are on “our” team. He sure isn’t on mine.
I am a Christian worshiping as a Protestant. The fact that there are heretics who’ve co-opted protestant denominations does not change the distortions of Rome. Of course there may be people calling themselves Catholic who have little understanding of Roman doctrine, and when it comes to what they believe they may as well be on our team.
I appreciate that you affirm your convictions as an evangelical. Please though do not give credit where it is not due. If Catholics want to come home, they should come home to historic orthodox Christianity that the Reformers gave their lives for.
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Evangelicals in action.
Check out the story of Michael Oher.
Don’t have a link but this family was truly representing Christ.
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Isn’t the greater point here to spend our time being saturated by the flavor of Jesus, and in turn influencing our world for him? Praise God for a generation, a time, a people ready to get beyond posturing and into building the kingdom.
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I don’t see President Anderson’s comments as “sins†against me. We just disagree. And if it were, I forgive it on the spot, but still disagree.”
I don’t think his comments were sin either, just think he missed the point.
But why not just email him to say that he missed the point and invite him to look at this post. Otherwise, it might be a missed opportunity to promote something good (call it what you will) instead of leaving a sour taste in the collective mouth.
Peace
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God does NOT need our “evangelical†help with anything..whatsoever..ever!…
Jesus commanded us to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth. How has God worked in the earth to give people the gospel without the use of missionaries bringing it to them?
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“God does NOT need our “evangelical†help with anything..whatsoever..ever!…!”
Why not?
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I tried to click on the link to imonk’s article from President Anderson’s article and got something about the Taliban instead.
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While some seem almost grateful to jettison an approach that has seemed hollow and empty to them for a long time, others are very taken aback by the very suggestion that we should seek ways to love and serve others that are not belligerent and adversarial. One woman wrote to me, “If you’re suggesting that we should stop being tough on homosexuals, then I really have to question the validity of your Christianityâ€. — Savannah
I read that as “set in their ways”, so locked into a particular approach that they cannot change it. I’ve seen the same pattern both in and outside the church, even in my own family.
P.S. Merlin and Angry Bob — Separated at Birth?
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As far as the “Emperor Has No Clothes” issue —
I look around my room and realize that none one could ever accuse me of that. Better clean up ….
How many coats did Jesus say was too many …?
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Sorry. Climbing back in the boat.
Headless – I thought I was the only one that had read “The Innovator’s Dilemma”. Nice analogy.
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Let’s not go overboard on church discipline. I don’t see President Anderson’s comments as “sins” against me. We just disagree. And if it were, I forgive it on the spot, but still disagree.
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You asked,
“What are you doing with your life, reader?
Blogging? Twittering? Sleeping? Complaining? Doing nothing and calling it something?”
I’m coming out Michael. I’m not sure where I’ll end up yet, but I’ve spent too many years being the “in the background” “wallflower” Christian. I’m blogging and right up front with my faith. People of Facebook have no doubt where I stand for I’m not ashamed of the gospel any longer. I’ve become very disturbed by the diminuation of the cross in our churches, communion becoming an after thought, choruses with bad or no theology, and a world that could care less we exist. I’ve found life in the old. Ancient church liturgy and prayers have given my spirituality a new life I never thought possible. I’m more comfortable with the current upsurge in evangelical Catholics than I am in even my own evangelical circles. While a small minority in the Catholic church, I find them to be quite effective and God honoring. The above clip you posted is one example of a slumbering giant showing signs of life. I haven’t read all of your posts, but I assume your wife has decided to become Catholic. I’m not there but I can understand why. The Coming Home network founded by Marcus Grodi has highlighted plenty of evangelicals like your wife who have “come home” to the Catholic church. I’ve established a close friendship with one of the new Catholic apologists, David Armstrong. He has authored a number of books. David and I often go toe to toe in discussion, but after a heated discussion, we are friends. If we were in the same town, we’d have a heated discussion and then put our arms around each other and march off to the nearest pub and down a brewsky. And we’d give a toast to our Lord in the process. (that ought to flip off some of my evangelical blue noses)
Keep stirring the pot Michael. I love your blog.
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I read the Washington Post article and then all of the comments there. What impressed me the most was the complete lack of understanding by the commenters of what evangelical means. At least Anderson offers a definition that is within the realm of reasonable, be it ever so fuzzy and without teeth. Consider his audience. He is writing for the Washington Post, sort of the flagship rag for liberal American Culture. Anderson seems to write articles for them sort of as a token gesture at objectivity. After reading other of his articles and his politics, it is no wonder that he was selected by the W.P. as their “conservative” and “religious” foil as he is not conservative and probably not “evangelical” in a fundamentalist sense.
But back to my point, the open hostility towards Christians in general and anyone with an opinion from the Christian world is staggering. They give lip service to freedoms and persecutions while turning a blind eye to their own rage. They are completely unwilling to spend any effort in discernment over who is claiming to be Christian and what they are actually saying. All “Christians” are lumped together and labeled and rendered politically and morally mute, or at least that is the agenda.
I don’t know why Anderson chose imonk to pick on. Clearly it doesn’t make much sense. Perhaps he chose your article as a move to get his readership to read your article as well, not really to disagree with it. Ulterior motives and slight of word, you know. The issue for me is that the amount of damage that is being caused in the political arena by our fringe players, our Osteens and Youngs, and our organizations like the American Episcopal Church who compromise theology for Americal pop culture, is hurting all of our credibility. Men of God must rise up in these arenas and speak clearly and consistently from doctrinally sound positions if we are to earn back our voice at the political table.
And we need our voice at the political table. Our nation was founded by Christian men. We own them the courtesy of getting our acts together, straightening out our houses and getting back into the fight. As so many pastors have said, the battle for the next generation is on, and we are losing them. Politics create the rules of engagement and we must get back in the game.
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As I was reading your post, IM, I was thinking exactly what Headless Unicorn said in the very first response: you’ve exposed that emperor as completely naked and there will be those who get their noses out of joint about it.
Actually, I’m glad you wrote about this because I’m personally, on a much smaller scale, experiencing some pushback for some things I’ve made reference to in our local community where I’ve challenged some brothers and sisters to lay down their arms vis-a-vis the “culture war” and start practicing a more Jesus-shaped Christianity.
While some seem almost grateful to jettison an approach that has seemed hollow and empty to them for a long time, others are very taken aback by the very suggestion that we should seek ways to love and serve others that are not belligerent and adversarial. One woman wrote to me, “If you’re suggesting that we should stop being tough on homosexuals, then I really have to question the validity of your Christianity”.
So be it – question away. Because I can’t find anywhere in Jesus’ Great Commission to us any mention of being “tough” on any particular sin or group of sinners, but rather recognize that all are sinful and broken and in need of the Good News of the Savior.
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I particularly enjoyed the challenge at the end. This week our pastor preached about Gideon. If God can make him a mighty warrior, there is still hope for all of us. I hope you do more indepth stuff about the neo-reformation. This is the first I’ve heard about it.
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You can look at as many as you wish–the popes, bishops, and denominational bigwigs, and even the big-name preachers, do not start revivals–they’re too busy doing their own thing to hear God, so He uses nobodies with less name recognition and more willingness. They often end up famous, but they didn’t start out that way.â€
That seems to be God’s “modus operandiâ€. When speaking to youth I often point out that in the Bible God used the young, the least significant, the stutterer, people who could only give God the glory. — Eclectic Christian
No need to put God-talk on it. It’s a pattern you see all over. The “denominational bigwigs” and “big-name-preachers” are already entangled in fixed assets, physical plants, and other established organizational baggage which limits their radius of action. The nobodies have much less baggage and less limits.
In computer hardware, IBM was the 400-lb gorilla from the Nifty Fifties until the mid-Seventies. Every competitor — Sperry Univac, Itel, Burroughs, others whose names are forgotten — all tried to compete with big (no, bigger) mainframes and got steamrollered by Big Blue. Then in the Seventies DEC did an end-run around IBM with the “Minicomputer”, smaller, cheaper, and more adaptible to the new online processing. Then Apple and others (including IBM) end-ran DEC with the “Microcomputer” (now called the PC).
You saw the same thing in gaming, when D&D introduced the concept of character-oriented Role-playing Games in the Seventies to what was then pure Wargaming. And when Magic the Gathering introduced the Collectible Card Game and caused a mass extinction event in the over-saturated Role-playing Game market in the early Nineties.
You never do a big innovation (or “Revival”) by going head-to-head against The Establishment, but always by end-running around The Establishment.
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mike,
I don’t know where you are coming from, and that is quite important, because we all see things from our own history, etc.
BUT, Evangelicalism has a number of things that I wish that my portion of Catholicism has. Things that make it easier to meet others at your church, a desire and legs to go out witnessing and tell the good news, Bible study groups for all ages.
As far as God doing the work, He does it through us limited humans. I recall reading about a statue of Christ that lost its hands in a disaster. A sign was placed “Christ has no hands but ours.”
How true.
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“Just because I think the balloon is deflating doesn’t mean I am not optimistic about the great things that are happening.”
When I read that I thought of the story of the guy who jumped off the top of the Empire State Building and was heard to say as he passed the 65th floor, “So far, so good.”
I mean, if the balloon is deflating, why would you be optimistic about the supposed “great things that are happening”? I mean, it seems a bit counterproductive, don’t you think? I mean, if the boat is really sinking, why would you stay on board?
Then I read the rest of your post.
Oh, me of little faith.
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Michael,
Although you and Mr. Anderson aren’t in the same local church body, isn’t this an excellent opportunity to put into practice some of the things that have recently been discussed here regarding Matthew 18?
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The video did make me think of the videos that the LDS have made in promoting their faith.
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Mike — “God does NOT need our “evangelical†help with anything.”
This statement along with the others about what and who God chooses to use confirms to me what I believe is happening — God has a Structure He is building up. Our perception of own efforts and designs are not necessarily on the same plane as His. As in the past, what we see as a “collapse” is actually an emergence.
Michael — I am sure that you know that the Lord is using you for something. I believe that.
As we say in Program — we are only responsible for the effort, not the result.
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Michael,
Thank you for this post. I actually found it encouraging, in a poignant, “the true church thrives in hard times” kind of way.
The fluffy, feel-good, Gospel-lite, or Gospel-free, “evangelicalism” may collapse (and I certainly hope your ministry isn’t affected), but right now, I am remembering that I saw a former meth addict and a former Mormon get baptized in my church this morning, and all I can say is PRAISE GOD! 🙂
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Hi Michael,
The choice of the word “autobiographical” was indeed unfortunate. But I’ve said much worse.
President Anderson is a good friend of a good friend. So here’s my biased spin on his words. I think he is so praiseworthily international in his outlook that he may have missed your point. Evangelicalism is going to be awesome in 2019, globally speaking. But you weren’t globally speaking.
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First and formost i am calling for CALM here…what you are about to hear may be disturbing…God does NOT need our “evangelical” help with anything..whatsoever..ever!…i know this is a big one for many and you may need time to process..but by all means do ponder this and the Lord give thee understanding..
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..
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Phil Hawkins,
“You can look at as many as you wish–the popes, bishops, and denominational bigwigs, and even the big-name preachers, do not start revivals–they’re too busy doing their own thing to hear God, so He uses nobodies with less name recognition and more willingness. They often end up famous, but they didn’t start out that way.”
That seems to be God’s “modus operandi”. When speaking to youth I often point out that in the Bible God used the young, the least significant, the stutterer, people who could only give God the glory.
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We need revival in this country, again. But one thing I do know of the historic revivals is that when one comes, the formal leaders of the church–the “big men in the brotherhood”, the “hot rock pulpits” or whatever you want to call them, are usually left out. The Wesleys and Whitefield were Anglican clergymen, but so far down the totem pole that they had no churches to serve or preach in. I’ve been to Red River Meeting House in Schochoh, Ky, where the Second Great Awakening started in 1800; James McGready, the pastor there, was a nobody among the Presbyterians. Barton Stone, who attended Red River and went home to host the Cane Ridge Revival the next year, was also a nobody. You can look at as many as you wish–the popes, bishops, and denominational bigwigs, and even the big-name preachers, do not start revivals–they’re too busy doing their own thing to hear God, so He uses nobodies with less name recognition and more willingness. They often end up famous, but they didn’t start out that way.
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Michael,
Thank you for asking me what I am doing? Sometimes I think I do a lot and other times not enough. It is a continual prayer of mine to be and do His will.
On another note Jesus said, “Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.” Luke 6:26 NIV
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Amy Wellborn commented today on a piece by Dawn Eden (such lovely names) about the state of Christianity in Poland. It seems there is a nostalgia there for the Church under Communism.
“Perhaps the best way to understand it is to think about what the Catholic Church meant to the Polish people during the reign of Communism. It meant freedom.” Eden writes in the piece she calls “Sanctified by Suffering.”
“Today, nearly 20 years after the fall of communism in that country, Poland is saturated with images and cultural messages promoting Western materialism. Freedom no longer means freedom to do what is good and right, but simply freedom to do anything. The Church is increasingly seen as an institution that limits rather than liberates.”
Perhaps the coming upheaval, as Fr. Ernesto puts it, is just what is needed so the real value of the freedom true faith in Christ offers can again be experienced in this Nation.
With all that is going on in this Country, Mr. Anderson attacking a colleague in this fashion is indicative of his own internal quagmire. Keep plugging away, im. 🙂
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Micheal, my friend.
I have recently left “evangelicalism” for a local lutheran parish, and what they are doing right is what evangelicalims should be doing right.
Simply, consistently, quietly, persistantly, humbly living out christian community.
I have tired of the latest and greatest thing. Where every Sunday was some kind of crisis that need immediate action.
We need to simply be discipling, baptizing, communing, teaching the life of Christ in our midst.
I think more will actually be done through the quiet and almost invisable actions of the church doing its thing, simply day in and day out.
Thanks
Rob
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With his bare bones definition of evangelical, it could even include us Catholics. Which is not appropriate or correct.
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Mr. Anderson’s “evangelical” is so loose that it could encompass even me. I really don’t think that is what he meant to say, or to imply that oneness theology and evangelical thought are so closely allied. Or maybe he did, because I don’t know a thing about the man. Anyway, what he said generally seemed in fact very close to what you stated in your CSM article, except that you took the trouble to explain exactly what you meant. And what a difference that makes.
Really, you don’t need to feel too badly about it. Every time the church has been in need of reform (a distressing number of times) people have been standing up, pointing out errors, and suggesting solutions. The powers-that-be have hardly ever liked them, or taken the time to understand them. You stand in illustrious shadows. Be glad!
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And as to his definition of evangelical, “My short definition of an evangelical is someone who takes the Bible seriously and believes in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.†— Irenicum
So how does he parse that definition to exclude us Catholics? (I mean, the only reason that HE’s got a Bible is the bishops of MY Church kept the local Shirley Mac Laines from rewriting it in their image back when AD calendar years were in the low three digits!)
Should have expected backlash from some hardcore evangelicals who would look for every reason to disagree with you. — ScottL
IMonk speaks truth and wisdom. Truth and Wisdom will always piss off SOMEBODY.
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There is upheaval coming, but not just among the Evangelicals. That is what Leith Anderson is missing.
On the bright side, iMonk, hmm, they killed the prophets also.
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“Now for a Report from the other bank of the Tiber (Ia! Ia! Nimrod! Ia! Ia! Semiramis! Ia! Ia! Tammuz! Cthulhu na-Ftaghn!)”
My parish, we stick with Isis, Horus and Set (Iä! The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young!) 😉
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Now that I’ve glanced over the Wikipedia article, the resemblance between yourself and Hugo is stunning, stunning, I say!
(1) “Chávez was born in a mud hut near Sabaneta.” Grew up in impoverished conditions. Michael was born, grew up in, and continues to live in a state where there are impoverished conditions!
(2) “Originally he kept his own faith a private matter, but over the course of his presidency, Chávez has become increasingly open to discussing his religious views, stating that both his faith and his interpretation of Jesus’ personal life and ideology have had a profound impact on his left-wing and progressivist views.” Michael tells us that his faith and his view of Jesus have had a profound impact on his views!
(3) “Chávez utilized his flamboyant public speaking style, which was noted for its abundance of colloquialisms and ribald manner—on the campaign trail to win the trust and favour of a primarily poor and working class following.” Michael uses his flamboyant public speaking style, replete with colloquialisms and references to popular culture, to win the trust and favour of his following on here!
(4) “Throughout his presidency, Chávez has hosted the live talk show known as Aló Presidente (“Hello, President!”).” Throughout his reign as the Internet Monk, Michael hosts his podcast!
Plainly, President Anderson knows of your plans for a coup, Michael, and rightfully fears the result when you finally act against him and his administration 🙂
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Michael, please don’t covet our ad. Envy is a sin, you know. 🙂
You should also like it because it’s not trying to convert anyone. As it says, the idea is to make lapsed Catholics “come home.” The sentimental images and script are clearly designed to evoke memories, not convince anyone to change their mind.
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Should have expected backlash from some hardcore evangelicals who would look for every reason to disagree with you. Keep being Jesus-centred. Thanks.
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Well comrade Michael, or should I call you Hugo? That comparison is just plain bizarre! Where Leith Anderson got that is anyone’s guess. Although it is ironic to me that he immediately equated your critique of the current state of affairs in evangelicalism with Hugo Chavez’ worn out prediction of the imminent collapse of capitalism. But he hasn’t heard any preachers he’s talked to mention politics! OY!
And as to his definition of evangelical, “My short definition of an evangelical is someone who takes the Bible seriously and believes in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.” that is so bare bones as to be nearly meaningless. Of course evangelicals have a high regard for scripture and desire to have Christ be Lord and Savior of their life, but to be evangelical “historically” is to attach actual doctrinal content to this general sentiment. That’s where modern evangelicalism has run headlong away from. Has he not read Chris Smith? Honestly, he sounds like he’s whistling past the grave yard. If this is the general attitude among the leadership of the NAE, then we’re worse off than we even thought. How come I’m not surprised? Thank God for Christ’s faithfulness!
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But I will say this: the implication that my evangelicalism is collapsing is an unfortunate thing to say about anyone you don’t know. Maybe President Anderson needs to contact me and let me know where this autobiographical collapse is occurring. What “current events†took control of my mind and led me into panic mode? Am I under surveillance by the NAE? Can they read my mind? Hand me some tin foil…quick!
You have said The Emperor has No Clothes.
You must be denounced. You must be silenced.
As for what “current events”, any “Spiritual Warfare” fanboy can answer that one. (Or Flip Wilson: “THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT!”) Just read your own essay on “I’m Tired of Weird Christians”.
…saddened that my team is mostly known these days for Joel Osteen, R-rated expositions of the Song of Solomon and gay bishops.
Don’t forget James Dobson (“Letter from 2012”), Tatted Todd, and Fred Phelps.
Now for a Report from the other bank of the Tiber (Ia! Ia! Nimrod! Ia! Ia! Semiramis! Ia! Ia! Tammuz! Cthulhu na-Ftaghn!):
At my home parish (St Boniface, Anaheim, CA) we normally have a little over half a dozen adult baptisms/confirmations each Easter Vigil.
This last Easter, we had almost THREE DOZEN. (No info on their backgrounds, though, so I don’t know how many of them were Tiber-swimmers.)
And this Sunday (Third Sunday of Easter), the pastor’s column in our parish bulletin reported that the total number of adult converts nationwide jumped from 137k at Easter 2008 to 150k this Easter. Atlanta, GA, reported 513 new converts baptized and 2195 Tiber-swimmers “received”. And Birmingham, AL, had to schedule additional RCIA/catechism classes to accommodate the influx.
So it looks like it isn’t just me @ St Boniface; there IS an upswing in new Catholics. Don’t know if it’s the hard times we’re entering or what.
I remember one of the knock-down-drag-out comment threads here at IMonk (I think it was the one on Grinning Ed Young preaching his 30-day Sex Challenge) remarking that the RCC presents itself as a serious faith, something that is lacking in a LOT of Evangelicalism.
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