Prosperity Gospel: Yes or No?
You decide. Here is a collection of statements, products, ministries, etc. Some of them are the Prosperity “Gospel” while some are not.
What do you think?
1. Christian financial ministries like Crown and Dave Ramsey.
2. The movie “Facing The Giants.”
3. If you tithe, God will pay all of your other bills.
4. The Prayer of Jabez. (Prayer the prayer and God will expand your territory.)
5. Joel Osteen. (Have a good attitude, think positive, be nice and God will show you favor.)
6. Jesus: Ask whatever you will in my name, and it will be done unto you. If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can move a mountain.
7. I don’t need health insurance. If I or my family has a health crisis, God will pay the bills.
8. That church just keeps growing. God is really blessing them.
9. If I use the “What Did Jesus Eat?” Diet, I will be less likely to get cancer.
10. Our family has 8 children and one on the way. I’m sorry you can’t seem to get pregnant. The scripture says that God blesses the obedient with many children.
11. We only do business with Christian companies. That keeps the money in the kingdom of God.
12. The mass intention today is for Mr. Smith’s grandmother, Lois Grant.
13. God isn’t going to bless your church till you start a 24 hour a day prayer room and show him you really want revival.
14. Proverbs: He who rises early will be wealthy, etc.
15. Your suggestion….
The Internet Monk Archives 
Since arriving in Mexico as a missionary, I have encountered prosperity theology running rampant and completely unchecked. I have not nor will I ever acclimate my palate to this theological junk food. Prosperity theology may make you feel good as you eat it. but later you feel cheap and disgusting. The pastor whom I have been under for the past nine months has a knack for picking out OT passages and grossly misusing/misinterpreting them to make his prosperous points. Someone mentioned earlier several OT figures that God prospered. I am not debating the fact that in the OT God did make promises of prosperity to those who obeyed him. But if we read the whole Bible, we will find that the one who was obedient his entire life, even through his death on the cross, never prospered materially. If we are going to have a theology that controls our lives (as does PT) shouldn’t we be sure that it is one in which Jesus fits? How can I say I want to be like Jesus when we’d rather be like the religious leaders or Caesar?
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just for the sake of being the sole dissenting voice, i’m voting no on #10 and 11
First, #11 – if i choose to support people i love preferentially, who are members of God’s family, isn’t that the *idea*? That we are known by our love for each other? So if i support businesses owned by my Christian brothers and sisters in preference to others, how is that prosperity gospel?
#10 – this is a kind of tricky one, because the Qf folk do tend to get a little prosperity gospelly (i know – i’m on all the lists, i’ve got seven children and not planning on quitting) – thing is, having children *is* a blessing. It doesn’t earn you anything – it’s a gift that God has given – children are a form of wealth – it’s a beautiful gift from God – and yes, He sends the rain on the just and unjust alike, but it’s a blessing to both of them if their crops grow, right? Some people don’t want to be blessed that way, and fine – I’ve heard people on the QF lists say “God doesn’t send a lamb without a little pasture” – but there are a lot of big families who are struggling financially. I think the blessing is in the children. It’s something wonderful, good, pure and sweet. And being content with the way God has made you is a relief and a freedom from the slavery to pharmaceuticals that most Christian women experience. But i don’t believe that good women only get pregnant or that bad women suffer miscarriage or stillbirth or disease or congenital defects. In some cases, God has a different blessing for them, and that’s wonderful, too… But to deny that children are a blessing to a Christian family is just plain weird 🙂
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OK Tim, if you can find the post where someone TOLD you what to do, and didn’t say that it is between YOU AND GOD, then I’ll keep posting you. But since there hasn’t been any “pious poverty” on this thread, but plenty of “pious prosperity” coming from you, I think we’re done.
By the way, I turned my TV off. Please enjoy yours.
Done.
D-O-N-E.
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Also, the frustrating thing is the one size fits all attitude, like, “I sold my tv, so you need to sell your tv also.” People can trumpet their wealth, but people can also trumpet their pious poverty. If you give, give in secret.
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Can’t say I’m surprised.
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“If your stuff is your god – get rid of it.”
What makes something your god? Enjoying it? I have always felt oppressed and manipulated when pastors say this.
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Tim W:
Who is this Jesus you speak of? I don’t know him.
ms
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“We know that Jesus wouldn’t wear a Rolex. We just don’t know why we shouldn’t.”
We don’t know that. He allowed the expensive perfume to be poured on him, he didn’t think it a waste. If someone gave him a Rolex i bet he’d have worn it.
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“Someone above mentioned Joyce Meyer, and I know iMonk has been disparaging of her before. May I confess to a guilty pleasure? I like Joyce Meyer”
me too
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Well said Radagast.
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Austin said:
“As our emphasis on tithing drops so will our giving, and so will our institutions.”
We can only pray and hope that the institutions that man has created will eventually drop! As a matter of fact, the end Revelation seems quite clear on this.
Jesus. The antithesis to institutions.
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Ed on 29 Apr 2009 at 8:41 am
Prayer for the sick (especially when that prayer is not accompanied by doctors, medication, hospitals, etc.) doesn’t seem to be all that effective. And yet, it dominates our corporate prayer life.
I’ve noticed in passing that a large majority of prayers in our Sunday School/small group meetings are about somebody’s health. Or money problems. Is the only thing we feel is safe revealing, or worth discussing, is about health and money? I don’t believe I’ve heard a “Please pray for my problem with laziness at work” – but what really needs the prayer? My budget problem, or laziness problem? I wonder if the prosperity gospel is so ingrained it determines what we value, and therefore what we pray for.
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I wonder why tithing always equals money.
When we were growing up we went through times when we barely had any food in the house. Christmas gifts and Christmas dinner came from the generosity of the community.
No matter how difficult things became my mother gave a tremendous amount of time and energy to the church. She taught Sunday School and Vacation Bible School. She visited the sick and helped elderly neighbors.
Our family survived because there were good, generous people in our community. Even though we didn’t have money to contribute, we could contribute time and energy. I can recall us kids helping to paint the Sunday School rooms, and helping to clean up the grounds.
Both my mother and my mother-in-law are in their 80s now. They can’t do the things they would like to do to help neighbors. So they have both become prayer warriors. My mother sits in her wheelchair and prays for the other people at the nursing home. She prays for the people on the news. She prays for family.
I would be extremely upset with anybody who suggested she was too cheap to tithe. She gives what she can from her tiny monthly check. Why is it always about money? Don’t elderly prayer warriors count? Don’t the people who give their time count?
Perhaps I would have a better attitude about this if I hadn’t witnessed the wasteful spending at churches. Tithing should mean faithfulness on both sides.
Faithful giving AND faithful spending with the money tithed. I think people would have a better attitude toward tithing if they knew their money was being spent with the same care with which they would spend it themselves.
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I don’t have a problem with Dave Ramsey, whose message, at least from my perception, is to be responsible and don’t live beyond your means. We do a version of his envelope system and it works well for us since we don’t do well with credit cards and have gotten rid of them.
As for selling your stuff – I look at it from different points of view. If your stuff is your god – get rid of it. If you have a bumper sticker that reads “Those with the most toys wins” – then your probably off track.
Each Christmas my kids (and I have lots) go through their toys from prior years and give away those things that they do not want or need. We do this also with clothes. We don’t have garage sales or take things to flea markets – we give it to those in need.
Now there are those who take a vow of poverty to serve the Lord. But those of us with a vocation of family have a responsibility to raise them, and raising them in forced poverty, while it may provide some wisdom later in life, can cause some stress.
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Imonk,
You assume too much. I have read many scholarly studies on the tithe. I understand the multiple tithes of the OT. I also understand that a lot of folks (who aren’t simpletons) find in the scriptures both OT and NT much support for the continuation of tithe giving, even predating the law.
And I think you know the answers to the circumcision and sabbath keeping straw men before you even ask them. You’re a smart guy that’s why I read your blog. 🙂
Peace
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LOL. Thanks. I’ve actually not read it, and I’ll try and do so.
I still like Joyce Meyer, though. I hope I can still hang around here.
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Treebeard:
Didache is our earliest document describing early church life. It’s not scripture, but it is highly useful. It specifically deals with preachers/prophets who give evidence of being in it for the money.
peace
ms
p.s. Yes. Read that too. 🙂
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Matthew,
I can think of two that probably did. Joseph of Arimethia (sp) and Lydia, the seller of purple.
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iMonk, I’m genuinely confused. “Read the Didache, folks”? Why? Should I read the Epistle of Barnabas too?
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Austin,
You’re right. I’m hiding behind the one who fulfilled every Old Covenant shadow and external form. If circumcision and sabbath keeping are the subjhect of Paul’s rhetoric in Colosssians and Galatians, why are we advocating tithing again? Oh yeah….it works. Well legalism does tend to do that.
I’d suggest that you take a serious, scholarly source on tithing and consider carefully what you are saying.
There are more tithes and offerings in the Law than just one.
Israel utterly failed at keeping the Old Covenant. It’s not a model for new covenant obedience.
Tithing is great. Fasting is great. Vows are great. Just let them be what they are, and let those who use them be what they are: New covenant believers using old covenant practices.
Hebrews, etc is clear about all of them: they ended with Jesus. If you compromise on the New Covenant at all, Rome is going to start looking pretty good.
peace
ms
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Imonk,
It has just been my experience that folks tend to “hide” behind a New Covenant argument when they find anything they dont’ want to abide by.
It’s sort of the old Christian Liberty trump card.
As our emphasis on tithing drops so will our giving, and so will our instistutions.
My understanding has always been that Christ fullfilled certain Old Covenant requirements and they were now void but He did not ever in any place I have found lessen or simply invalidate without fullfilling Old Covenant commands.
Regards
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I’m sorry….how many of the disciples and apostles died wealthy?
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Austin,
A pragmatic argument doesn’t rise to the level of a scriptural command.
God can and does bless tithers and non-tithers.
No one suggested that tithing was bad or God punished it.
ms
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Prosperity gospel? All yes except 1, 12, and possibly 6.
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Great discussion, iMonk! Thanks for challenging us in this area.
I have a dream. Here in Indianapolis area where I live, I dream that every suburban church around the city would raise up and commission 2-3 families or single adults to give up the comfortable suburban lifestyle and move into the inner city, into poor neighborhoods, in order to live intentionally as generous, helpful, permanent neighbors, friends, and witnesses to those around them.
I don’t think this kind of calling is for everyone, but why do we hear about such things so infrequently? Why do we see church after church after church in the suburbs that continues to run the same tired programs for those who are already saturated with opportunity, that has such lack of concern for the poor, and such limited imagination when it comes to actually doing something radical and sacrificial in Jesus’ name for others?
Not only are Christians not giving much, where I live they are mostly giving simply to make the rich richer.
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Imonk,
You already know the facts better than I b/c your education and a great deal of your livelihood sp? had come from little old SBC ladies writing their 10 percent checks for decades and giving to their churches who in turn give to the co-operative program. It seems the SBC and others were fairly successful and blessed for generations encouraging their folks to give a biblical tithe.
I know success doesn’t always mean right. I get that. I pastor a small church that is probably more faithful with the gospel and ministering to the needy than most around, but is still small, but there is somethign to say about a long continued blessing of God on a group.
They must be doing something right. I”m sure the tithe wasn’t all of it, but our institutions, agencies and missionaries have been more blessed and live a more comfortable life than almost any others due to an emphasis on giving that almost certainly always starts with the teaching of the goal of the tithe.
I always tell folks that althought the tithe may not be “New Covenant” that I dont’ think they want to go there. I see in the New Covenant folks having all things common and giving a lot more than 10 percent.
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Not meaning to sound anti-Semitic here (I am, after all half-Jewish), but regarding Martha’s question about the origin of the thought that material prosperity = proof of God’s favor, it seems very Jewish (that is, Old Testament) to me.
Don’t ask me to quote chapter and verse.
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I’ve hit up against this attitude before, and I’d love an explanation of where it came from, that material prosperity = proof of God’s favour.
The corollary then, whether overtly stated or no, is that lack of success = proof of God’s displeasure.
There is nothing saying that you can’t work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labours, and if in a spirit of gratitude you say “God has blessed me” that is well, but to have the attitude that “God wants me to be rich” or “I deserve the good life” or “There is no such thing as excessive wealth if I am doing the Lord’s work” – that bothers me.
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I could come up with examples like TBN pastors and prophets flying around the country in private jets, dining at expensive restaurants, buying the best clothing, vacationing in places like Tahiti and Europe that most of us will visit only in Google Maps.
But what I am wondering is how the prosperity gospel – and the Christian television industry that has helped propagate it – has influenced the body of Christ at large.
Do you ever see any ugly preachers on TV?
Any ugly CCM singers or bands?
Any ugly Christian personalities?
On Christian TV, do you ever see a program, or interview with, or church pastored by, people who live in the hood or in a lower class part of town?
When public christian personalities look like they hold down nice jobs, make enough money to at least put them in nice homes in nice suburban neighborhoods and clothe them from places like Nordstrom’s and Old Navy, and put their kids in nice, suburban public or private schools…and it’s implied that this is to be the norm for all Christians…is that the legacy of the prosperity gospel?
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General pronouncements- like everything in Proverbs- do not prove false when there are exceptions.
It’s not up to me to defend or parse Jesus’ words. It’s my job to deal with them. We’re the richest nation on the planet. Everyone reading these comments has world changing potential in the use of our resources. Jesus spoke plainly to his disciples about money. You have to work it out, and if possible, we all need communities and leaders to help us.
Palatially rich Bible teachers don’t help me follow Jesus.
Read the Didache folks.
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That might be an important point: What does it mean to “enter the Kingdom”? If someone is poor, becomes born again, and then eventually becomes wealthy, does the Lord’s word still apply? Haven’t they already “entered the Kingdom,” if the Christian church is the kingdom of God?
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Jesus said it was almost impossible for the rich to enter the Kingdom because no one can serve God and money.
Rich people have to work that out just like I do.
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I’m cool with you too, iMonk. I guess what confused me is that you were focusing on Meyer’s wealth, and thus consider her PG, but I’ve never heard her give a prosperity message. That is, if I were to quote her and not tell you the source, I believe you might think the content is genuine Biblical teaching.
Concerning “We want to be rich Americans and wealthy evangelicals in a world of starving people and starving missionaries,” I’m not sure what that means. I don’t really want to be rich, but I’m thankful that I live in America. Wasn’t that God’s doing? Either you’re poor or you’re not. If we’re against poverty, why be troubled that some are not in poverty? To be concerned about poverty and yet angry that we are wealthy people doesn’t make much sense to me – isn’t it good that the wealthy are not in poverty? Would you rather them be poor?
A few more points, to muddy the waters, based on the above comments:
1) What about JC Penney and other Christian businessmen who became extremely wealthy and then supported Christian causes?
2) John Wesley: “Earn all you can, save all you can, give all you can.”
3) “‘Honor your father and mother’ – which is the first commandment with a promise — ‘that it may go well with you and that you may enjoy long life on the earth.'” Definitely an if-then statement, from the New Testament. Isn’t that part of the Gospel?
4) The end of the book of Job, after all his suffering, was he had greater prosperity than before. I know that’s not necessarily our destiny, but it can’t be ignored either.
5) One time Watchman Nee was asked by a potential convert, “If I believe in your Christ, will he fill my rice bowl?” Nee responded, “If you believe in Jesus Christ, your bowl will be broken.” So there’s a nice anti-PG statement to finish my rant with.
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Well I’m cool too. Peace.
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I’m not mad at you. I love your blog. I just disagreed and that’s cool.
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Kenny:
I’m poorer than you. You really don’t want to play that game with my life. Trust me.
I’m “passing” judgment? No, I’m making the judgement scripture says make when it says a teacher isn’t to love money.
And I didn’t tell you to sell your stuff. Jesus told us to sell our stuff. (I assume that means your unnecessary stuff.) So yes, if I were more serious about Jesus, I might decide he wants me to sell this computer.
But that’s between me and God.
But if I have 50 million I got from widows and a palatial lifestyle, the issue is a bit clearer.
I’m done with this Kenny. I’ve said all there is to say. Just be ticked at me and let it go.
ms
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I listened to Ramsey in person and on radio a lot in years past. I heard:
Get out of debt
If you weren’t greedy and stupid, you’d have some money
If you made some good decisions for a long time, you’d have enough money to take care of your family and do good things for others, the community, scholarships, medical clinics, etc.
The in person event I attended had a lot of that: Save to get to give.
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But you’re the one passing the judgments. Even telling me that I need to sell my stuff — I don’t know your financial situation either, but I’d assume I’m poorer than you. I live in a 2bd apartment in a working-class neighborhood, with 1 television that was a hand-me-down from my Grandfather-in-law. The car I drive to work is 8 years old.
I’m not the one judging your wealth or Joyce Meyer’s though.
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Obviously, having $50 million a year from widows in her bank account doesn’t stop Joyce from being an expert on Jesus.
You probably should listen to her.
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Dave Ramsey’s PG tendency is subtle. A lot of his advice is good and I think that if his advice could be separated from the underlying PG ickiness, it would help a lot of people. A lot of what he tells people is just “don’t be egregiously stupid,” and it’s rather sad that in this prosperous culture, people need to be told such basic stuff about stewardship. But they do, so it’s good that he does it.
But here’s why I think he’s PG: ask yourself if you could imagine him doing what he does, saying what he says, in the way he does it and says it, and then remind every caller and make it a major theme of his books that if God calls Christians to struggle against poverty and financial insecurity throughout their earthly lives, that is one of His good gifts also. I can’t imagine him doing that, though I could imagine him repenting and doing that, because I think his heart’s in the right place. He’s just too much of a reflection of our modern American Christianity that can’t even begin to fathom that God would expect us to put up with the things that our brothers elsewhere in the world and throughout history considered “normal life,” let alone “trials.”
But in reality, what he teaches isn’t just “don’t use your money in stupid, unbiblical ways,” but “if you do the right biblical things with your money, a comfortable material prosperity is owed to you, at least under ordinary circumstances.” And that’s a shame.
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Kenny:
My standards aren’t your problem, and unless you are appealing to a church where I am a member, I have nothing to say about “enough.”
I read scripture and I have a conscience on these matters. You don’t have to conform to my conscience. If you bring up JMeyer, I’ll speak up, but she is free to do what she wants, and you are free to do what you want with her, with your money and with your Bible.
I’m not your problem.
The words and example of Jesus are your problem and my problem.
We want to be rich Americans and wealthy evangelicals in a world of starving people and starving missionaries.
You don’t ask me what to give. You ask God what to give.
His his day of judgement where we account for this. I’m not going to be your judge nor you mine.
ms
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And when do I stop? How poor do I need to make myself to meet your standards to be a good teacher?
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I feel like I’m in a Southern Baptist Sunday School class and someone just read something Jesus said about money.
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If JMeyer has given that amount to GA, I’ll be wrong.
Yes, you’re rich.
Yes, you should give away some of your stuff.
No, you didn’t need me to tell you this. You already knew it.
Yes, it’s between you and God, but if you’re a teacher of the church and love money, are greedy, take money from the poor to live like the rich, you aren’t fit to be a teacher.
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That’s a new covenant text on giving. Amen.
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But aren’t we rich by world standards? I don’t need 2 cars. I don’t need a tv. I don’t need cable. Couldn’t Gospel for Asia use my $100/mo I spend on my FIOS package?
Do we know that Joyce hasn’t donated $25m?
At what point am I considered too rich? To who do I compare myself? With an Afghan or my neighbor? With Bill Gates or with the median income of an America? or a Indian? Or an Iraqi?
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Isn’t the New Testament model for giving 2 Cor 9:7 — “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver” (with the emphasis on “cheerful” which in the original Greek is hilaros which looks a lot like our English word hilarious but may or may not mean the same thing???
In other words, don’t give till it hurts, give till you’re hysterical??? I have heard sermons saying this. So whether it’s 2% or 90% shouldn’t matter as long as you’re having a good time.
What do you think, iMonk?
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Find your favorite mission sending agency and ask them what they can do with $25 million tomorrow. Call Gospel for Asia with that one and get back to me.
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$50 million a year. Mansions. Servants. Helicopters. Jewelry. All from asking for offerings and selling books. It shouldn’t make a difference?
Like I said, if it doesn’t make a difference to you folks, don’t let me bother you. Seriously. You’re all literate. You can read what Jesus said about money for yourselves.
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Why would Joyce Meyer’s bank account disqualify her in any way?
Dave Ramsey isn’t PG. Much of what he says is just common sense financial advice. He does tie some things to the Bible (like that debt is bad), but he doesn’t promise or promote blessings from God for doing things his way.
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I’m not going to argue with you. Read the St. Louis paper’s coverage of her and her family.
We know that Jesus wouldn’t wear a Rolex. We just don’t know why we shouldn’t.
That’s our problem.
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And you would rather her make how much? And you would rather her live where? Not everyone is called to be a Mother Teresa.
I get your point, iMonk, and I am not an apologist for Meyer. I’m not really comfortable with ostentatious wealth either. But where does the Bible say, in evaluating a person’s ministry, that you should look at how much money he or she makes?
My impression (and it is only an impression) is that she gives a lot of money away. I have heard that in Africa she is a big influence, and my guess is that you would consider that a negative. But if there are women who would otherwise become prostitutes, who are now living in Christian women’s homes founded by Meyer, that to me is more important than her wealth (and the money has to come from somewhere). It is possible, just possible, that the Lord doesn’t hold her wealth against her. Maybe He’s even happy with it.
Meyer is coming to my city soon, and she is using a large arena. Her talks are free and open to the public. If she were in it for the money I don’t think she would do this.
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We’re not cheap and I give a lot more than 10%.
It’s not taught in the New Testament. It’s Judaism. Book of Leviticus. If you want to do it, fine. But you have to separate it from the New Covenant and be clear that God isn’t running that kind of operation anymore.
ms
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I’m not looking for a fight on tithing, and I know it can devolve into legalism, but in my ministry experience 99 percent of the folks opposed to tithing tend to be doing so just out of cheapness.
I’m not ready to lay it as a burden on folks legaly, but it is certainly a good standard. Church costs money people. And I’m not talking about large buildings and staff. I’m talking about keeping lights on, having SS literature etc.
I just don’t get how folks react so negatively to tithing. But then I come from a family that tithed faithfully even when we had little.
And I don’t think it is PG to say that if you honor God with the things he blesses you with that He will in turn care for you. Not a new car or a brand new house, or a European vacation, but He will look after us. I think that is pretty much just simple teaching.
Likewise if we do not honor Him with the things He blesses us with be it money or anything we should not expect to recieve more when we are unfaithful.
But you all new that already.
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Joyce Meyer makes over 50 million a year and lives in fabulous wealth.
Please consider this when evaluating her.
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YES.
To every single one of them.
I thought Dave Ramsey was just about being clever, though.
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God’s eternal principles bless the unselfish and curse the self seeking. Notice that it is not God who chooses to do this, but His eternal principles that apply to all. God does not buy followers of His truth. Doesn’t have to. In any case, prosperity in material things is deadly to spiritual growth. True prosperity is spiritual wealth. I learned this from the Judeo-Christian scriptures. Always look for the motives of those who preach to you.
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Okay, here’s a #15: If I am a good Christian girl, God won’t let horrible things happen to me. My husband will not leave me, my family won’t get sick, I won’t lose my job, my car won’t break down on the highway…. etc. I think that’s the bargain a lot of us have subconsciously struck with God, and we aren’t even aware of it. This is a major struggle for me as I try to put a context around my relationship with God.
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Luke 18: 18-25 The story of the rich ruler.
I find it interesting that this story is often used by unscrupulous preachers to pry more cash from the flock.
I read the exact opposite.
I believe that anytime The Good News is taught as what you can store up in earthly goods, health or prosperity, you are saying “Follow the rich ruler, not Christ.â€
By the way, Jesus doesn’t tell the rich ruler to give what he has to the church. He says to give what he has to those who have nothing.
When Christians talk like Job’s friends, they are not sharing the Good News of Christ. They are saying, “If you were a better Christian, you would have what I have.†The are saying that Grace is earned.
God’s Grace is sufficient. The rest of it will rust or wither or crumble or be taken by thieves.
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Something I recently wrote that seems to tie in somewhat:
Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4 (NIV)
Too often I hear this verse used as some sort of a “magic key.” Just delight in the Lord, and He’ll give you whatever your heart desires. Want a 52-inch plasma HDTV? Just spend time in prayer and worship. Want a new car? Study God’s Word more, and He’ll reward you for it with a new ride. Hoping that “special someone” will ask you out/agree to go out with you? Volunteer to help with the homeless outreach, and God will pay you back. It often borders on the pagan practice of manipulating their gods by performing certain rituals or spells that are prescribed to achieve certain ends.
But is that what “delight yourself in the Lord” really means? To “delight in” means to draw one’s pleasure and satisfaction from, to find one’s joy in. When I delight in the Lord, I make Him the source of my fulfillment, joy, satisfaction, happiness, etc. The more I delight in Him, the less important other things become. Christ Himself becomes my passion — the desire of my heart.
So when I truly delight myself in the Lord, He is the desire of my heart, and He will not withhold Himself from me, but will reveal Himself to me (John 14:21).
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Someone above mentioned Joyce Meyer, and I know iMonk has been disparaging of her before. May I confess to a guilty pleasure? I like Joyce Meyer, and believe her ministry is geniune. I also have read Battlefield of the Mind, and it was a liberating experience.
I agree that the prosperity gospel is wrong, and false. But I don’t think it’s wrong to encourage people to expect good things from God, or to realize that God is a God of blessing. Many Christians seem to have an anti-prosperity perspeective, as if God delights in their suffering and asceticism. Both are wrong. We may go through suffering, and we may go through prosperity, but our focus should be on God (Christ), who is faithful to bring us to Himself.
Joyce Meyer was sexually abused by her father. Eventually through her love for the Lord and her study of the Word she was able to leave the past behind. What she teaches has helped me find the Lord again in a fresh way. Many wounded people need her message.
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1. Christian financial ministries like Crown and Dave Ramsey. Yes
2. The movie “Facing The Giants.†No
3. If you tithe, God will pay all of your other bills. Ha! No
4. The Prayer of Jabez. (Prayer the prayer and God will expand your territory.) Uh…no
5. Joel Osteen. (Have a good attitude, think positive, be nice and God will show you favor.) Nope
6. Jesus: Ask whatever you will in my name, and it will be done unto you. If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can move a mountain. According to God’s will…yes
7. I don’t need health insurance. If I or my family has a health crisis, God will pay the bills. Nope
8. That church just keeps growing. God is really blessing them. Not necessarily…
9. If I use the “What Did Jesus Eat?†Diet, I will be less likely to get cancer. Yea, and get your genetic code modified….
10. Our family has 8 children and one on the way. I’m sorry you can’t seem to get pregnant. The scripture says that God blesses the obedient with many children. Yea, whatever…
11. We only do business with Christian companies. That keeps the money in the kingdom of God. Riiigghhhttttt
12. The mass intention today is for Mr. Smith’s grandmother, Lois Grant. The wha….????
13. God isn’t going to bless your church till you start a 24 hour a day prayer room and show him you really want revival. ‘cuz He can’t, like read your mind already and stuff….ya know.
14. Proverbs: He who rises early will be wealthy, etc. Bull Hockey, I rise at 5am but that’s not keeping my company from laying us off in two weeks.
15. Your suggestion…. Be born into a rich family.
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Random answers here:
Facing the Giants… Predictable preachy movie yes.
Osteen – yup.
12. Mass Intention. No.
8 and 13. Yes. Absolutely. I’ve heard that from the pulpit and in fellowship.
15. “God does nothing on earth except in answer to prayer…”
This was taught by a paid (non pastoral) staff member at my church.
We believe/practice this PG junk because we want to see rewards, tangible like idols type rewards.
Bread and fish not manna.
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How many coats did He say were too many, again …?
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I believe every prosperity Gospel — as long as Jesus is the riches, Jesus is the sustenance, Jesus is the goal —
And all else is as garbage ….
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Yes to all of it. Everything on that list is prosperity gospel. As much as I like Ramsey (we use his stuff in our church) and Crown they mix a little PG into what they teach (especially related to tithing).
And “Facing the Giants” is undoubtedly the most prosperity gospel oriented thing I have ever seen. I really dislike that movie.
I think the comments reflect how deeply engrained the propsperity gospel has become into our faith.
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This is not about the prosperity gospel, but in response to Anna A’s comment. One Mother’s Day our pastor’s sermon was almost exclusively about fathers.
After the service, my wife said to him, “Pastor, are you going to talk about mothers on Father’s Day?” and his response was, “Well, [name], you have to realize that a lot of fathers have to be mothers as well.”
My wife said, “Yes, Pastor, and you have to realize that a lot of mothers have to be fathers as well.”
Blank stare. Deer in the headlights look.
I guess it was a stand-off.
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15. Using the prosperity gospel in multi-level marketing companies. (This relates to #s 4, 5, 6 and 14). I have seen over and over again the claims that these companies “put God first, family second and career third.” It’s not a coincidence that you’re hearing about this business today – God really wants to bless you through it. Right now. Sign here.
God first means the Prayer of Jabez, random Bible verses taken out of context, “vision-casting” for more sales and recruits, and the virtual worship of people like Joel Osteen and Joyce Meyer.
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When we begin to believe that if we do “A” then God will do “B” we have crossed the line from religion to magic.
As far as prosperity, if we believe that God made us rich we also have to give him credit for making our neighbor poor.
It’s like someone surviving an accident and attributing it to God. The implication is that God killed the other fellow, or at least decided not to do anything.
When we give God the credit for our touchdowns, we also have to give him the blame for the fumbles.
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1. Dave Ramsey: No. I have no perspective on Crown.
2. Never saw it.
3. Sounds more like living hand-to-mouth.
4. Yes
5. Joel Osteen. Definitely PG.
6. Only if taken out of context.
7. No, that’s just relying on God. I’ve been reading +Fulton Sheen’s autobiography “Treasure in Clay” and he gives at least one instance where he relied on God to take care of financial matters, and a person came along and paid his bill. Yes, Mary was involved. Mother Angelica of EWTN tells of how a distressed sinner on a cruiseship was the absolute last minute answer to her prayer for a large sum of money to pay for the radio equipment. I’m talking “delivery truck is here, where’s the money” last minute. Of course, you have to reference number 6.
8. Maybe.
9. If I use the “What Did Jesus Eat?†Diet, I will be less likely to get cancer.
10. PG, and bad theology. “… for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.†Matthew 5:45
11. Not strictly PG.
12. No, that’s strictly spiritual.
13. Not unless there’s some financial tie-in.
14. PG
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I like Ecclesiastes 3:12, 14:
“And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.”
“I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.”
Life is simple and Prosperity Gospel complicates things.
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…im wondering how many of your commenters here still buy into the tithing doctrine…i bet most.
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Changed my mind on #2. I guess it is yes (didn’t see the movie, just judging by the fact that there was and will be follow-up movies that will make people a lot of money).
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Bill C. – Well said.
Anything to me which has an “if-then” attached to it is a form of prosperity teaching. I don’t even like to attach the word gospel to it. If anything, these things are anti-gospel because that they distract from the real thing.
Health insurance is a largely American phenomenon – much of the industrialized world has universal care and much of the undeveloped world has the “walk it off” plan. Prayer for the sick (especially when that prayer is not accompanied by doctors, medication, hospitals, etc.) doesn’t seem to be all that effective. And yet, it dominates our corporate prayer life.
How do we view and justify our own prosperity? I once heard that if you you were a home owner, you were in the top 2% of wealthiest people on the planet, and if you owned an automobile, you were in the top 10%. That seems pretty prosperous to me.
We have this relativistic and elitist view that those with more than us are money grubbing heathens and those with less than us are lazy handout-seekers with an entitlement mentality. Whatever we have is just right.
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1. No
2. Not originally but yes now
3. Maybe
4. Yes
5. Yes
6. No in context
7. Yes
8. yes
9. just plain crazy
10. yes
11. just stupid
12. no
13. yes
14. not if taken as a “proverb”
15. Let’s move our church from the inner city to the nice white flight suburbs, that is where we can grow and God is moving.
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Martha,
I am sure that # 10 attitude of complete and irresponsible (blank) is common in evangelical churches.
One Father’s Day, I and my girl friend almost walked out of Sunday School, because the lesson was all about praising our fathers. It included a way too long segment from a call in show with people thanking their fathers. She wanted to leave because she had been abused by hers and I wanted to leave because mine had died a few months earlier.
Perhaps we were cowards and didn’t speak to the teacher afterwards, but we were hurting.
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I’m with Justin.
All PG. Especially the Osteens and #3.
The baby thing is just plain stupid and cruel.
15. Bill Gothard and the IOBYC.
Why do we persist in thinking God is a vending machine in the sky?
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No. 5 – I have a hard time connecting Joel Osteen, with the prosperity gospel, at least in its more crass sense. I grew up in the 80s and 90s with the televangelists promising that God will bless you if you buy their anointed prayer cloth/prayer shawl/whatever. I have never seen Joel do this. Nor in the Oral Roberts vein, have I ever seen Joel tell people to plant a seed of $1,000 with his ministry to get a blessing in return. I tend to think of him as being more in the Norman Vincent Peale/Power of Positive Thinking vein. Not that that doesn’t have its own problems, but its not the same as the Tilton/Hickey/Oral Roberts version of things.
8. – Its always struck me as ironic – if our church/denomination is growing, its because we are teaching the truth and God is blessing us for it. If a “rival” church/denomination is growing, its because they are compromising God’s truth to get a crowd. If our church/denomination is NOT growing, its because no one wants to hear the truth in this apostate age. If a rival church/denomination is NOT growing, its because God has removed His Spirit from them because they are worldly compromisers and anathema to Him.
In other words, we can find a way to spiritualize and justify whatever is going on in such a way as to make us look good and someone else look bad.
9. – The whole Christian diet phenomenon is somewhat amusing to me. They all claim to be based on Scripture, yet they come up with different results. Some will say no meat at all for example, while others will say yes to all meat but pork (the “unclean” meat.) While I am sure they are some good sensible diet instructions in these works, I wonder if sometimes its a case of reading into the text what you already believe and want to find there.
Haven’t seen Facing the Giants, haven’t read The Prayer of Jabez, and don’t really follow Dave Ramsey. But I think with all of the above, it tends to be a case of taking an element of truth, and absolutizing and distorting beyond what was originally intended. Yes, God may indeed bless us for our faithfulness, but He is not “obligated” to do so. Mainly, we should be faithful because it is the right thing to do.
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Perhaps 1 thru 14 depend on what your motive is. 15. Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God.
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Matthew Peak: thank you for your eloquent testimony of God’s power made perfect in our weakness.
Those who said such things to you know nothing of Biblical teaching, wisdom, or love.
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15. PETER POPOFF MIRACLE MANNA/SPRING WATER! (Look it up on YouTube and cry.)
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Peaches, I am so sorry to hear that. I hope she punched the idiot in his or her big, fat mouth?
Well, consider this a virtual puck in the gob on her behalf.
Honest to God, have none of these read the Book of Job? The whole Job’s comforters bit? “Well, if this is happening to you, you must deserve it – what did you do to get God angry?”
And God’s response?
“42:7 And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.”
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The Prosperity Gospel makes me ill.
I am in a wheelchair and have been told so many times that I would be healed and prosper if I would …
“… just believe.”
“… confess those hidden sins.”
“… name and claim Abraham’s blessing.”
“… pray in His name.”
“… pray in the Spirit.”
“… take a huge leap of faith.”
“… read the right translation.”
“… attend the right church.”
“… tithe.”
“… attend church.”
“… rebuild family relationships.”
“… get married in line with scripture.”
“… stay single for the Lord.”
Well, I have prayed, believed and have struggled against sin for fourteen years and I am still rolling around in my chair. The only “real” prayer seems to be Job 1:21.
That is not to say that God is not involved or that He is not good, only that He is sovereign. We can ask, but we may not receive.
I am thankful to God for all the good that continues to come into my life, most of which I do not ask for or deserve.
As for “Facing the Giants,” I prefer “Braveheart” and “The Patriot” as a good, anti-prosperity-gospel-but-pro-faith movies.
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#10 was also shared with me – well, not the exact quote, but in principle several times during my three years of struggling with infertility. And I do think it is a kind of prosperity Gospel. God blesses those who obey Him, and clearly since I was struggling, I must not be obeying God. I’m so sad to hear that it’s been the experience for others in the church, too 😦 I can’t wait to get up for our baby dedication (we’re due in June) and share that the pregnancy had nothing to do with our obedience or any drastic change in beliefs. It was just a surprising blessing, out of nowhere, and we didn’t earn it. Neither did the family with 8 kids and one on the way.
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Most of these I would tend to dismiss out of hand but 3, 7, 10 and 14 (somewhat) tend to get to me sometimes. It’s that whole “if you’re good then God will be good to you and if not then you get what you deserve†thing. I get it in church when I look at certain families that seem to do everything right and they prosper like crazy. Not the material things but the other stuff – good kids, lots of freinds, talents. I thought I did things right but didn’t prosper. But I know that in this world we are not promised a pain free prosperous life no matter what we do. And as soon as you think you are, then you open yourself up to all kinds of sin. I pray for humble acceptance of all the good things God has given me but I’m only human.
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#6: Imagine if this didn’t make it into the Bible, and then Joel Osteen said, “Ask whatever you will in Jesus’ name, and it will be done unto you”! Everyone would be *all over* him. It would go down as one of the worst things he ever said.
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Who Cares? They only give me indigestion for which I have found no cure.
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“God does reward his servants with worldly wealth!”
And as soon as they get it, they start straight into swindling your kinsmen, committing adultery and arranging the murder of your rival, dissension and rebellion in your family, wandering after strange gods and losing the wisdom you asked for when you were poorer…
… as the man said, to see what God thinks of wealth, just look at the people He gives it to.
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Yes, all of it.
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#10 was shared with my daughter who had two miscarriages during the past year. It was in her SBC Sunday School class. No response from the church
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Obed, I think you’re right. That’s what drives me crazy about some of the approaches to prayer – that it treats prayers more like charms or spells, and confuses religion with magic.
We can’t force or bargain or buy or obligate God to do stuff for us in any way.
Is it permissible to pray for our necessities? Certainly – the Our Father teaches us to ask for “our daily bread” (and yeah, I know there’s a lot of theological work done on what exactly that means besides the obvious, but the obvious also applies here).
Asking for jam on it? That’s a different matter.
I do wonder if some of this is perhaps a result of American attitudes – hold off on the lynching for a moment, friends, I’m not attacking your fine nation! I’m just saying that I saw an American Catholic (I presume) site with the St. Jude novena, and it definitely not just veered over into but drove straight at snakeoil territory. With a list of “Have you got …. problems?” and a “Say this! Do that! 100% guaranteed results!” prescription, it reminded me more of an advertisement for banking services or the new wonder pill rather than the kind of “Ask for the graces attendant” presentation I’m accustomed to in these matters.
And I do think that this is the American attitude of “anything’s possible; from a log cabin to the White House; work hard and you’ll get a raise/promotion/if you don’t, there’s a better job easily available out there; you deserve the fast car and bigger house; you don’t have to put up with sickness or suffering or wait for anything you want; don’t like how you feel? now you don’t put up with the disappointments of life – there’s a therapy or a drug out there to make it all better”, the Can Do! attitude that is admirable in its place but, when applied to the spiritual, is completely off the wall.
I think that attitude of material and social progress has bled over into the expectations of religion and subtly warped what we should know; if God has promised that anything we ask He will grant, and if we’ve been told over and over that it’s all by faith, then asking for what I want (no, we are to ask for what we need) is fine because this will make me happy and God wants us to be happy (no, God wants our good, which may be an entirely different thing) and I deserve it just because without having to do anything! (no, what we receive is all by grace, not desert, and sometimes the answer we need is ‘no’).
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No. 14 appears to be a paraphrase of Benjamin Franklin. Deism and the prosperity gospel would seem to work at cross-purposes, no? (With that “watchmaker god” and all.)
No. 6 is a really tricky one, theologically. Jesus seems to be saying that prayer actually works. So why aren’t I rich and married to Bo Derek? Well, one theory is that it only works if you subsume your will to God’s. Or maybe the “mountain” is the mountain of my own sins. Or maybe my faith just wan’t strong enough. (Perhaps Ms. Derek’s prayers counteracted mine.)
No. 12 sounds like just some strange argot for group prayer. If we admit that one person praying for another can have an effect, why not a whole roomful of people? As to whether the roomful would have MORE of an effect, well, in that case God would end up helping people who are famous and popular, which seems at odds with the biblical ethos.
I’m not sure where the “prosperity gospel” movement (properly so-called) begins and ends. Robert Tilton (spit three times) with his theology that whatever you give to the Lord (read: Robert Tilton), God will return tenfold? (“Somebody out there is waiting to make a hundred-dollar vow of faith. Somebody wants to make a THOUSAND dollar vow of faith. Now pray with me: Holy Spirit, annoint my hand as I reach deep, deep into my wallet…”)
In the New Thought movement (most famous for “positive thinking,” e.g. “affirmations” and “thought for the day” type stuff) there was this one guy who re-worked the 23rd Psalm into…well, it started like this: “The Lord is my banker, my credit is good…”
No. 7 (health insurance) concerns preparing for possible future catastrophes. On one hand, Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount tells us not to worry about tomorrow, etc. On the other hand, God warns Joseph in the OT to store food in preparation for a famine. I prefer this attitude.
No. 9. There’s no reason to think that Jesus had an especially healthy diet. He probably ate what everybody else did.
A friend of mine would say, “God doesn’t promise anything except a cross. God’s greatest blessing is the cross.”
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1. Christian financial ministries like Crown and Dave Ramsey. – Crown to me was the ‘rich Christian web site. I agree with what Lionel Woods stated that Crown only works with already wealthy people. Dave Ramsey seems more balanced in his approach in many areas.
2. The movie “Facing The Giants.†– No comment, never saw the movie
3. If you tithe, God will pay all of your other bills. – word of faith definitely. Propseriy Gospel states that paying tithes just gets you love, acceptance, and protection from God. In most Prosperity Gospel mindsets, If you want your bills paid or a nice car or home, ante up….
4. The Prayer of Jabez. (Prayer the prayer and God will expand your territory.) – PG definitely and also I see alot of the seeker-sensitive mindset and Kingdom Now / Dominionalist mindsets.
5. Joel Osteen. (Have a good attitude, think positive, be nice and God will show you favor.) – PG and seeker-sensitive. His daddy was a prime player in the Word of Faith movement
6. Jesus: Ask whatever you will in my name, and it will be done unto you. If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can move a mountain. – Definitely PG, word of faith, and even classical pentecostalism / holiness, Kingdom Now / Dominionalist mindsets, Latter Reign
7. I don’t need health insurance. If I or my family has a health crisis, God will pay the bills. – stupidity
8. That church just keeps growing. God is really blessing them. – classical pentecostalism, church-growth, seeker sensitive, word of faith, revival / renewal Charismatics, Kingdom Now, Dominionalism, Latter Reign, – aka Christian pragmatics.
9. If I use the “What Did Jesus Eat?†Diet, I will be less likely to get cancer. – Word of Faith, PG, and the revival / renewal / Dominionalist Charismatics
10. Our family has 8 children and one on the way. I’m sorry you can’t seem to get pregnant. The scripture says that God blesses the obedient with many children. – The American religious right across all denominations
11. We only do business with Christian companies. That keeps the money in the kingdom of God. classical pentecostalism, fundamentalism, The American religious right that are Charismatic in nature. – Look at the other side where the revival / renewal mindset, Dominionalists, Kingdom Now, and Latter Reign people form these MLM companies and push the ‘christians buying from other Christians mentality’
12. The mass intention today is for Mr. Smith’s grandmother, Lois Grant. – I am not familiar with this.
13. God isn’t going to bless your church till you start a 24 hour a day prayer room and show him you really want revival. – revival / renewal movements, Ultra Charismatic, IHOP, New Apostolic Reformation (C Peter Wagner), Dominionalists, Kingdom Now, and Latter Reign
14. Proverbs: He who rises early will be wealthy, etc. – That is the Bible, never heard it obsessed with any particular group in general
15 – A. Your suggestion…. The revival / renewal, Charismatics, Word of Faith, Dominionalists, Kingdom Now, Latter Reign, New Apostolic Reformation, and Prosperity Gospel – These annual summer conferences consisting of ‘repent-a-thons’, ‘mega-fasts’, ‘2 Chronicles 7:14 rallies’, dominionalism, ‘revival’ promising that if we address ‘that one thing’ that is holding God from being provident, sovereign, omnipotent, and omnipresent, then the heaveniles will open up and blessings will pour out yada yada yada…
but repeat the same crap year after year.
15-B . The ‘signs and wonders’ people – golddust, gold teeth, angel feathers, stigmatas, sapphires and rubies, oily hands.
15-C Charismatic Messianics – restoration of the Jewish Feasts, blowing shofars, observing the Hebrew Calendar and telling time per the Jerusalem time zone, church on Saturday, kosher diets,
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Here’s my take:
1,2 not sure because I’m not familar with them.
3, 4, 5, 7, 8 definite Yes
6 Definite No
9, Depends. If you eat Biblically, it’s probably healthier than what most people eat, so it might reduce the possibility of cancer.
10, 11, 13 Definite Yes
12, No (You knew that I would say that GRIN)
14, that’s just common sense (which isn’t any more)
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My only comment is on #4.
Prayer of Jabez book? Probably heavily influenced by the prosperity gospel. Imo.
However, the original prayer in scripture? Probably not. God put it in there for a reason. The book brought some of those reasons out. Along with a small barrage of other reasons.
All scriptural passages on the list OBVIOUSLY are not the prosperity gospel. However, great care is necessary when exegeting them, because they are easily abused by prosperity preachers.
3, 7-11, 14: I hope this doesn’t come across wrong but I fail to see how cerebral people can accept those. I know people who do accept much of that. They are wonderful people but simply not the brightest bulbs in the light show.
The frustration for me is how do you help somebody who insists on believing 7?
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Oh yes, and a question. During the current economic downturn, I notice many churches sponsoring financial classes and seminars.
Am I too cynical when I say that I wonder how much of this is because:
1. They truly want to help people
or,
2. They are scared to death of diminishing giving that will force them to shut down the big evangelical machinery they’ve learned to trust in?
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1. Clarification, I think Ramsey is okay, I question Crown especially their marketing video with everyone with big houses, fancy boats and the whole nine. I don’t know if anyone has seen it but it is disturbing. Not to mention Crown use of scriptures can get really bad, I think Ramsey is the way to go.
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Let me try.
1. Sort of. Only works in Suburbia America (or some other level of income that would make it worth while). What my Grandmother raised us on wouldn’t even qualify (401K, Emergency Funds, IRA’s?). If our lights were on every monthy that was good! Section 8 and “The New Deal” were awesome for us!
2. Yes. Just pray and do the right thing and everything else will work out! NOT!!! Tell that to my friend who lost her husband (and only source of income).
3. Sort of. Seen that work for some, others went further in debt!
4. Yes! Description not prescription.
5. Yes. Read the second half of Hebrews 11 or Acts 8, or The Voice of the Martyrs
6. No but used a lot. I believe the scriptures but for some reason this hasn’t worked for me. I have a hard time getting my 3 year old to eat his vegetables “oh ye of little faith”?
7. No. Or how about this “I don’t need health insurance because there aren’t any doctors or hospitals in a 500 mile radius”. Thank God for health insurance though I need to use it more frequently.
8. No. That could be true or untrue.
9. No. Better start drinking the water Jesus drank also! Ever saw Erin Brokovich? But I do believe healthy eating can’t hurt, I wished I didn’t have to drive in Dallas though, my chances of living are 50/50 everyday!
10. Yes. That wold be devestating to a slew of Godly women! Especially those who had to have hysterectomies before they were married.
11. No. Not prosperity but doesn’t seem to be consistent with the scriptures.
12. No.
13. No.
14. What if I work at night? Would that mean I would have to get up in the afternoon?
15. If you bless Israel God will bless you!
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#15. My suggestion. The following quote is from Samuel Rodriguez’s new book, Path of Miracles.
“God has a marathon of miracles waiting for you to enjoy right now, in this lifetime, and the seven simple principles in this book will show you how to unlock the power within you, and secure those treasures, right here, right now.”
This is his take on EASTER!
What’s really sad is that Rodriguez is head of the largest evangelical Hispanic Christian organization in America, one of four leading Hispanics that the Wall St. Journal says will have influence on our nation’s political leaders, a recent speaker at Liberty University (!), and the book is endorsed by the likes of Jim Wallis and the chairman of the board of Gordon-Conwell seminary.
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I’m with Phil. Dave Ramsey doesn’t imply any kind of message along the lines of “God wants everyone to be rich” or that his principles lead to God’s blessing. Even just a little surface-level research will show you that even though he is a Christian, he doesn’t force Christianity into his programs. Also, I’ve heard him say many times that when you do get out of debt and have extra money, you should enjoy it by giving it away and blessing others. You don’t hear that in the prosperity gospel.
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FreeFamilyFinance.Com
Maybe you need to read Mr. Ramsey’s book or listen to his program a couple times. He does not promise wealth to his listeners, nor does Dave claim God wants His people to be wealthy. The “implied message” is “Get out of debt and you can then be free of obligation to the lender.”
Phil R.
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to Metalman777 in regards to teaching about tithing in church; If you notice in the NT many believers gave more than 10% of their income. It says that they shared everything in common and gave as was needed.
When a person obeys Christ out of a heart of love for Him they often-times do, or give, more than the legalist does (the widow who gave her last mite etc.)
Monk you hit the nail on the head. “My money” is not mine, but God’s, all of it. Christians who view their money and possessions in that way truly do things differently than the rest of us.
The big problem with the PG people is that implicitly or explicitly they preach that we can somehow manipulate God into giving us what we want. That by doing x,y, or z we can “force” God to do what we desire.
The perspective is all from the bottom up. It depends on human definitions of “good” and “wealth” and “prosper” not on what God deems “Good” or on what God desires for His people. Joel, Victoria and the others have, in my opinion, hijacked the definitions of certain terms and words, reformed them in their own image and then read those definitions back into scripture with the skewed meanings.
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Some are the prosperity gospel pure and simple (ie Osteen, Prayer of Jabez hype). Others are just enlarged and out-of-context ideas that don’t take into account the whole counsel of scripture.
Many show heavy influence of the culture we live in — a culture of acquisition and self-aggrandizement. A culture in which sacrifice and self-denail and simplicity and humility and a servant attitude are more frequntly belittled than upheld as the ideal. The paradox of Christianity, of course, is that our treasure and riches are located precisely in that realm of sacrifice and humility and servanthood.
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I feel comfortable speaking to #1.
All & all, I would say ‘No’. I do see Truth in the Luke – “Whoever can be trusted with very little…” argument that both sources lean heavily on.
That being said, of the two sources, Ramsey is the closest to prosperity gospel. Although I don’t think he explicitly teaches a prosperity gospel, I believe there is an implied message in his material that says “God wants everyone to be rich” and if you follow (Ramsey’s) Biblical principles, you will be. Aside from that implied message, which I don’t fully agree with, Ramsey’s materials are very helpful.
As far as Crown, their stance is much more fluid. They leave plenty of room for prayer and Holy Spirit guidance in decision making. I don’t believe they teach a prosperity gospel, but their mechanics are much more fluid, and subsequently weaker than Ramsey’s.
Both helpful sources.
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I’m not familiar enough with all of them to say “yes” or “no” to about half. I will say, though, that anything that confuses financial or material growth or improvement with Kingdom growth is Prosperity Gospel.
And to be fair, some of those items aren’t intentionally Prosperity Gospel, but have been misused that way by Prosperity Gospel folks. The Prayer of Jabez, fr’instance. The book itself explains that expanding one’s territory has to do with the number of people you influence, rather than material possessions. But those who don’t read the book naturally focus on the material possessions, ’cause their treasure isn’t in heaven—it’s here.
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1. NO. Both Dave and Crown have helped my family be wiser with the money we have, not get more of it.
2. Yes, but ok movie otherwise.
3. Maybe/maybe not, depending on one’s faith. For me, No.
4. YES.
5. YES. And Double YES
6. No.
7. More bad theology than prosperity gospel. That’s not being a “wise steward of what you have been given”.
8. No.
9. WHAT? Seriously???? Um…as bad as prosperity gospel, but more…”crunchy”(?) gospel.
10. Agree with metalman. Not prosperity, but unbelievably arrogant, and bad theology
11. Not Prosperity Gospel, but still bad. Aren’t we supposed to share the kingdom?
12. No. I’m Baptist, wife is (Byzantine)Catholic, I understand this, and I think it’s…questionable, but not prosperity gospel.
13. Oh give me a break. Bad theology, possibly prosperity gospel, and just annoying.
14. No. That’s more along the lines of being disciplined, a good steward, and the calls in the Bible not to be lazy or a sluggard.
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I think we need folks who believe Christ deserves everything and their neighbor- esp their suffering neighbor elsewhere- deserves more.
ms
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The prosperity gospel has some bad stuff, like giving financial seeds to shyster televangelists. It is basically a kind of superstitious kind of gambling.
However, I also think there are some good things about the prosperity gospel. I think it is good for people to want and expect more out of life and to believe that they deserve more.
I don’t like the kind of dour, abusive, masochistic, Christianity that puts people down and tells people they don’t deserve better and how dare they ask for more.
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Some of these are not so much prosperity gospel, but the very biblical principle “you reap what you sow.” Eat healthy – live longer. General principles to lengthen life and improve life’s quality.
The problem comes when these are used to motivate Christian life (we should be motivated by love of God, not desire for stuff) or when we make these things ironclad guarantees (you can live a healthy life and still get hit by a bus.)
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Hi all, new here. My name is Kay.
Curtis, that was hilirous!
Anyway, I have a hard time with prosperity Gospel, makes me feel like such a failure. I am poor by America’s standards, but so was Jesus and He sure wasn’t a failure, even though to the “world” it looked like he failed.
There has just got to be more to the picture than life here on this earth . . .
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God doesn’t care about prosperity. He doesn’t care that some people don’t have money, or food, or a roof over their heads, or a place to call home, or that people die of swine flu. He is more interested in “spiritual” things.
(Please note the sarcasm.)
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Martha, you’d be surprised how the pounds fly off after a few weeks of gall and vinegar smoothies.
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I vote with Don, though I did like Facing the Giants (though I must agree that they made it seem all too “prosperous” and smooth when becoming a Christian.
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#4 and #5, yes. Prosperity theology. I confess my ignorance regarding #1 — no idea what they are. Never saw “Facing the Giants,” not interested. #8, #10 are just non sequiturs. #11 is the Christian ghetto mindset; keep out anyone who’s not like us. #7 is just plain stupid; God will take care of our needs, but that doesn’t give us the excuse to be craven fools about it.
#3 is the only one I can attest to: my husband was laid off for two months. We kept tithing my paycheck and whatever he made doing engine repair at home (not much — he won’t charge people more than $50), and God worked out the rest for our bills. We certainly weren’t eating steak, nor has God given him a bigger/better job per Joel Osteen, but we had enough to get through until he started working again.
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1. no. These guys teach how to be good stewards of the money God has given us, but definitely not prosperity gospel
2. Definitely! I wish I could get a brand new truck just by being nice!
3. Yup, have to say that this teaching of the tithes is prosperity gospel. I’m a believer in the New Testament model of giving (giving of the heart), not the Old Testament tithe (giving out of obligation).
4. Definitely prosperity gospel
5. ditto
6. taken out of context, this verse sure sounds like prosperity gospel. Always, always, read the context and surrounding text!
7. almost as bad as JW’s who don’t believe in blood transfusions, IMHO
8. Prosperity gospel
9. shame on you for being suckered into garbage like that!
10. not only prosperity gospel, but smacks of arrogance
11. not prosperity gospel, but definitely the “bubble boy” mentality. How is that any better than the Pharisees?
12. nope. I’m not Catholic, so I’m not quite sure what it means, but doesn’t sound like prosperity gospel
13. And when has God ever been our genie in a bottle? sigh…
14.not prosperity gospel, but just a good hard work ethic!
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I think people react too harshly to the prosperity gospel. Albeit that it’s a misconstrued, false form of the message of Jesus Christ, but I do think the Bible does show God blessing his followers materially.
Look at Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, etc etc…
God does reward his servants with worldly wealth! It’s just that this worldly wealth is paltry compared to the greatest gift of all: God himself in Jesus Christ!
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Is it that hard to understand that something can be true, but not the whole truth or the deepest truth? To be faithful to God is to invite blessing – for he gives himself freely to those who ask – and every good and perfect gift has its source in him. Yet in this world, we often have to go through a death and resurrection to experience this as we will in actuality in our literal death and resurrection. We share in God’s blessings NOW in proportion to our faith. We share in his sufferings NOW in proportion to our faith.
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I’d say that 1, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, and 14 aren’t necessarily the PG, but are potentially used or abused, etc by the PG folks or folks with similar outlooks.
2-5, 7, 10, and 13 are pretty solidly in the PG camp.
I wonder how much of this is an issue of superstitions overtaking theology? How much of this is the idea that if someone invokes God or our faith in the right way that God is obligated to answer in the right way.
Which kinda makes me giggle, ‘cuz in a lot of fiction in the fantasy genre, they’d call the prayers of religious people “faith magic.” And while the idea of calling the application of our faith “magic” is offensive, that’s exactly how the PG folks treat the faith!
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1. No. Ramsey says that the best source of income is a J.O.B.
2. No (am I the only Christian in the world that didn’t like this movie?)
3. Yes
4. Maybe
5. Yes. Victoria too.
6. No.
7. No. Stupid, yes.
8. No. Even infected things swell up.
9. No.
10. No, just bad theology.
11. No.
12. No.
13. No.
14. No. While Solomon prospered, I don’t think that he preached the prosperity gospel.
15. Anything related to Joyce Meyer, Yes. 🙂
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The movie “Facing the Giants” screams prosperity gospel. Follow God with all your heart and nothing will go wrong.
What a bunch of hooey.
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Okay, I can’t really poke fun at these because we’ve got novenas to St. Jude and Our Lady of Mount Carmel, but jings! There is actually a “What Did Jesus Eat?” diet?
“Our family has 8 children and one on the way. I’m sorry you can’t seem to get pregnant. The scripture says that God blesses the obedient with many children.”
This is just *begging* for a smack in the mouth – please tell me some idiot did not say this in reality?
And what’s wrong with Mass intentions? 😉
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The key to number 6 is “in my name.”
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