My Highest Recommendation: Love Is An Orientation by Andrew Marin

130 thoughts on “My Highest Recommendation: Love Is An Orientation by Andrew Marin”

1. Pingback: Love Is An Orientation « Peacemakers

2. To Gay Christian: it is unfortunate that your comment came so late in the discussion that Michael initiated, because I fear not many people will see it. I have my computer set to get new comments from this site, so I saw your comment.

   You have made excellent points here and I think you have much to teach other Christians about the journey a gay or lesbian Christian may have to walk if they want to stay within a Christian faith community. Have you been able to happily stay within or find a faith-community that allows you to be yourself? I do hope so.

   Thank you for your post and I hope folks see it here.

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3. I managed to read through half of the 127 comments here. Am touched by the empathetic and compassionate responses and somewhat exasperated by some debates over the morality of sexual orientation.

   I thank iMonk for the review of the book, and for trumpeting a call (along with Marin and others) to start building bridges with the GLBT community. I am over 30 years old, have spent half my life in counseling and deliverance ministry in an attempt to be healed of my ‘sexual brokenness’ that is homosexual orientation. I have cried with friends, I have had demons cast out of me, I have had generational strongholds named and broken, I have dated amazing godly women whom I never quite loved sufficiently to take them down the aisle.

   I repented of every thought or feeling of attraction toward another man. I second guessed and over-analyzed my own intentions to build genuine friendships with other Christian brothers. When my Christian friends passed insensitive remarks about gays, I laughed along with them to mask my own pain. When small groups come together to share about what go on in their lives, I could only share the peripheral concerns because the one most preoccupying issue in my life was so often misunderstood and frowned upon by other Christians.

   I am most amused by this Christian obsession to “make a stand” on the issue. I think I have known very well what the evangelical stand is. It baffles me why there is a need to keep reiterating the belief that “homosexuality is sin”. Does that help me? Does that propels me to love God more as a gay Christian? Does that make my own struggle any easier? Or are Evangelical Christians obsessed with “making a stand” because there aren’t much else to say beyond “love the sinner hate the sin”?

   Well I thought that I would never embrace the “homosexual lifestyle” either. But then I just realized that there isn’t ONE homosexual lifestyle, just as there isn’t ONE heterosexual lifestyle. There are promiscuous straight folks and there are monogamous, chaste straight folks. Likewise, there are promiscuous gays and there are monogamous, chaste gays. To apply a blanket label of “the homosexual lifestyle” to all gays and lesbians is to have an intellectual discourse in a vacuum, without any real life knowledge of what really goes on in the world of gays and lesbians.

   The gay men I have met always want to delay sexual intimacy until emotional bonds are cultivated. They are looking for ONE person with whom they can share their lives. And yes, they are more tolerant of Christians than Christians are of them.

   And for those who argue that the orientation itself is a sin, should really read the Bible more carefully, and have a more cogent understanding of what constitute moral accountability. To hold on to a conservative position doesn’t make one more biblical.

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4. As a Christian, I have to agree with the atheist. If this is a sin, it certainly isn’t the worst.
   I never felt that way & don’t understand why it is considered almost as bad as abortion to some believers. But, please don’t stereotype us. There are many evangelicals who are very accepting.
   I’d like to make another comment. Why did they not allow gays in the military, but seemed to encourage heteros to go to prostitutes & live wildly!?
   Now that there is no stigma in being gay, allow everyone in the military, but no sex for anyone on duty, especially those profligate heteros! What ever happened to military discipline? He Heee
   (BTW, I am a hetero woman.)

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5. Wow. I hope this book changes the climate in the evangelical and charismatic church, at least among a few who can provide oasis for those who do struggle.

   As a sometimes post-evangelical, now Anglican (as of ’98) and one who deeply attends to biblical orthodoxy on this subject, it has come at a great price.

   As a “same-sex attracted” man, I have gone back and forth between carefully guarding my struggle to being more open in my church(es), friendships and in the workplace. As an athletic and “straight-appearing” guy (according to stereotype), I could have opted for silence, but have at times attempted authenticity.

   Having experienced both shunning and vigorous Bible-quoting from my spiritual counterparts, the most painful aspect of this was the relegation to “second-class” Christian status, amounting to disqualification from leadership or ministry.

   That’s all I’ll say for now.

   Appreciate the dialogue here. Even seeing the closed hearts along with the open ones was somehow redemptive somehow. I am glad there is still grace and peace offered to all regardless of our struggle.

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6. Irenicum stated “I know that in my own broken heterosexuality, I struggle with what it means to express Gods’ image through my life. It’s no different for those whose orientation is different. They’re just broken in a different direction.”

   Gays and Lesbians don’t consider themselves to be broken. I doubt that they believed that you “accepted” them. You really only “tolerated” them much as they tolerated you.

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7. Thank you for this post. In the past, my blogging circles were confined to “faith” blogs, but last year I started spending time on dailyKos, which is a political (Democratic) blog.

   Yes, there are evangelical Democrates (!) but on this site, have also engaged many people who speak freely about their faith (or lack of) — and you can’t help by cry when you hear about all the hurt and pain that has been caused “in the name of Christ”. Many topics, but sexuality right up there.

   I cried when Prop 8 passe in California, primarily because I did not see the fruit of the spirit… love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

   All that effort that went into defeating Prop 8 could have been spent spreading the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ. Personally, I know that my awareness of what is right and what is wrong in my life evolves as I grow in my relationship with Jesus. Let’s just focus our efforts on introducing people to the love that is Jesus and let the holy spirit take care of the rest.

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8. I think you’ve nailed it Frank; for me anyway this is the heart of the problem. Yet it seems like so many Christians can’t get their heads round this at all.

   I volunteer with depressed & suicidal people. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve talked with young people from Christian families who want to die when they realise they’ve been brought up to hate themselves.

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9. Some of you will find this helpful:

   I make a distinction between ontological labels/categories and behavioral categories/label.

   Ontological: racial, gender, physical disabilities, sinner, saint, christian, and yes gay.

   Behavioral: alcoholic, drug addict, gossip, idolator, adulterer, pedophile, hero, hard worker, etc

   Ontological labels are labels about someone that remain true INDEPENDENT of behavior.

   Behavioral labels are labels about someone that are meaningless when disconnected fro behavior.

   The two categories are not exclusive. One can bear a label in both categories.

   I put sinner in the ontological category. But itis a very special ontological class. perhaps deserves it´s very own class. why? we sin because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we sin. The point of Romans is that we are ALL sinners. But human does not = sinner. ALL sinners are human and all humans are sinners. It does not follow that human=sinner. Why not? we can ONLY know this from the Incarnation: Our Lord was FULLY human, yet he was without sin.

   My Lutheran Church LCMS thinks they are more compassionate in that they say “sure we accept homos because we are sinners just like they are, homosexuality is no worse than drug addiction, alcoholism, even gossip.” Sounds compassionate, but there is a category error there, and be sure that gays do not miss that and feel the christians have drunk the haterade for both sin and sinner.

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10. ProdigalSarah

    I get that impression because in comparing being gay with being a prostitute you are saying that gay people choose to be gay. Telling any gay person that is slamming the door in their face because it is refusing to accept them for the person they are.
    ——Yes, I am saying gays choose to be gay, just like my daughter made her choice. Just like I chose to be a drunk.

    And I heard the same arguement from my daughter to me–“You refuse to accept me for the person I am.

    And I used that very same arguement on my wife trying to get her to accept me as a drunk.

    Sarah, you said:”We have no right to say that my sin is any less than your sin or less than your daughter’s sin or than my son’s. We are all sinners.”
    ——I haven’t done that, nor do I remember anyone in this debate doing that.
    fishon

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11. The tremendous uproar over Miss Calif. by more than a few gay groups and individuals says much about the “affirming” issue. They put it right out in the open for all to see. She JUST answered a question she could not duck, and has been verbably beaten for it. Her transgression, not ‘affirming’ gay marriage.
    fishon

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12. Also another thing I would like to add. The young generation is very clear on how they feel about this. It’s not a matter of if but WHEN Gay marriage is legal.

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13. I agree with and applaud SAM’s post, well said. “Friends with…” is just that . I’d note that his post has (to me) NOTHING to do with Prodigal Sarah’s post where gay and left handed are inter-changeable. To say that this is a stretch is quite the understatement.

    Christians are tugged and pulled to the kind of extremes that take us away from GOD and HIS reality (Monk has an archive full of these). I don’t have to be mean or intolerant to show I have convictions (thank you SAM), but I dont’ have to equate my curly brown hair with sexual sin. I look forward to reading the book Mr.Monk touted, surely Marin avoids such glaring caricatures of what Jesus looks like and expects.

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14. As an Atheist I’m pretty confused about why this is such a big issue at all. There are a LOT of laws that Christians ignore from the OT (where most of the rules against homosexuality come from). I know that there’s a few things about it in the NT (been a while since I last read the Bible), but isn’t that all from Paul? Why can’t this be chalked up as something that probably made sense at the time, but knowing what we do today isn’t it time to move past this?

    I know many of you believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, but there is a distinct human presence in it’s writings, and we are very prone to error.

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15. “Affirm their lifestyle?” Well, my gay friends are faithful to each other, would get married if my state permitted it, hold steady jobs, have bought a house together, love their families, appreciate their friends, are kind to their cats. . .Their sins are no worse than mine.

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16. “2. Where did you get that I would teach: “slamming the door on their children”? YOU JUST ASSUME THAT.”

    I get that impression because in comparing being gay with being a prostitute you are saying that gay people choose to be gay. Telling any gay person that is slamming the door in their face because it is refusing to accept them for the person they are. I was born left handed. My son was born gay. I bear responsibility for what I do with my hand, just as my son has a responsibility for what he does with his body. The exact same would be true if I were born right handed and he a heterosexual male.

    We are all sinners. We have no right to say that my sin is any less than your sin or less than your daughter’s sin or than my son’s. We are all sinners.

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17. Anna A asks me to consider a “thought experiment,” namely:

    “If [homosexuality] were an innate good, then good things would come out of it? Right?

    “So just consider mental health, physical health and stable relationships.

    “Are they, in either North America or Europe, about the same or better than heterosexuals?

    To which I reply:

    On average, you could be right. Let’s say you are (though we’d really need to look long and hard at the stats for these, if any. Also, I think they have more money.)

    But the same line of reasoning could also be used against left-handedness. (Lefties have a life expectancy of about seven years shorter.) Or various other traits (race, gender) that most would not be willing to call innately bad.

    Also, much of the difference could be attributed to discrimination by society. If that were gone, then they might have better mental health, for example.

    One key issue is the extent to which these things are changeable. Today, few outside the “Christian community” entertain much hope that gays can be “cured” (though in my experience, lesbians are more likely to lean bi). So given that they are here, with this orientation, is it reasonable to expect celibacy out of them? Sure, some people accept it voluntarily, and even manage to follow it, but most (hetero and homo) yield to love and passion. So we can either accommodate these natural human desires, or suppress them (but not very well).

    Or we can try to find a cure, perhaps through genetic research. (To the extent that homosexuality has a genetic basis–I think it’s a mixture.)

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18. Thank you Sam. Apparently Jesus “affirmed” about every sin on the big list.

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19. We have many gay friends, so all of the comments about “affirming” their lifestyle make no sense to us. None of our gay friends have ever asked us to affirm their lifestyle. They do know whether or not we accept them as people and whether or not we like them. But they do not ask us to affirm their lifestyle.

    I suppose someone might think that being friends with someone affirms their lifestyle, or makes that person think we are affirming their lifestyle. If that is the case, then I could not be friends with many of my neighbors, co-workers, relatives and church people I know. They all sin. I do not have a need to name their sins here or to them. I’m sure they know them far better than I.

    Who came up with this idea that if we love and accept people, regardless of how they live, and whether or not we agree with how they live, that we are affirming their lifestyle? Would that not mean that Jesus affirms their lifestyle?

    Why is it that certain arguments, such as “affirming their lifestyle” rarely, if ever, come up unless the topic of discussion is gays? If I love and accept people who are mean and nasty to certain people based on the color of their skin or their sexual orientation, does that mean I am “affirming their lifestyle”, even if they do go to church every Sunday and are very religious? – I hope not, because that certainly is not my intention.

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20. ProdigalSarah said: I am horrified that you would compare being gay with prostitution and drug use. Wow! No wonder so many parents are slamming the door on their children, if they are listening to pastors with your views.
    My gay son is the same person today as he was as a smiling little kid who loved to help me bake cookies.
    ————Sarah, I do not want to get into a slam contest with you. But I need to address a couple of things you intimate.

    1. My X-prostitute daughter is now a leader in a church, directing a huge urban youth center for underprivileged inner city kids. She is the same smiling person she was when we would go fishing together.

    2. Where did you get that I would teach: “slamming the door on their children”? YOU JUST ASSUME THAT.

    3. So you are horrified that I compare a sin my daughter was engaged in with the sin your son is engaged in. Was my daughters sin somehow greater than your son’s sin?

    Sarah, you asked this fair question::”Can you seriously believe that any person would choose this pain for their life?”
    ————My personal experience says “yes,” I seriously believe that any person would/does choose pain for their life.

    How much do you know of street prositution? Do you think my daughter was born to be one or did she choose it/ I am guessing you would say she chose it, and you would be right. She chose the pain of beatings, drug stuppers, left to die in a gutter, health issues that will be with her the rest of her life, etc. Yes, Sarah, millions of people choose pain for their life.

    Sarah, please do not hear my thoughts, statements and questions as screaming at you. Please see our talking as two people with different positions having a dialogue. Believe me, please, I am trying to be respectful–and if it seems I am not, please give me the benefit of the doubt, as I give it to you.
    jerry [fishon]

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21. I have a few more thoughts after reading all of the comments. Since leaving all forms of organized religion several years ago, I have observed from the sidelines and headlines the actions and attitudes of the evangelicals in particular. They are the ones making headlines with the current debate on same sex issues it seems…along with the Mormons.
    The big nagging question for me has been, I wonder if these churches would allow Jesus to attend and worship “as is” if he were to choose now to appear in human form before us? The answer I repeatedly come to is a resounding No. As a matter of fact, the more I study and watch, it would appear that they are the anti-thesis of all that Jesus taught….that is to say, the AntiChrist.
    The debate has taken on a decidedly partisan tone, R vs. D vs. I it seems. Conservative, Progressive, Liberal. How is it that politics have hijacked this conversation? The big trump card of gay marriage is trotted out each election cycle, alopng with the other hot button issues and so it begins again. The difference now seems to be that the youth have awakened and see the folly in this. What part of “Judge not lest you be judged”, and “Do to others as you would have done to you” is being misunderstood and by whom?
    The bottom line for me is and always will be, what does God say to me? When I get alone and seek His direction what does He say to me? I hear Him say “Debra, be nicer to the strangers you meet in your life, be more giving of your time, love your enemies”, etc. Never once has he said to me anything about the love I feel for my partner being an abomination to Him. As a matter of fact, He continues to bless us daily as we continue this journey to love Him more, to seek His will and to love our fellow humans as He loves us. That’s where I rest assuredly this and every minute of my life.

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22. “Maybe you’ll think this is a stupid question, but…why is everybody so sure that St. Paul is right about homosexuality?”

    I am not at all sure the concept existed as it does now. In Paul’s time children, boys and girls, were sold into slavery. They were used at the whim of their owner. Slaves were used as male prostitutes. I question whether the concept of two consenting same-sex adults falling in love and choosing to share their life would have even been comprehensible. Same-sex relationships were typically not of equals in that day. They were owner and slave, teacher and student, military superior and young recruit. There were probably exceptions, but when Paul was in Rome, he must have heard about orgies where men freely indulged with young slaves of both sexes.

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23. Two words for you: AIDS HOSPICE.

    A much tougher question: why didn’t you think of that? — Patrick Lynch

    Because my brains have been like swiss cheese since I landed my current job.

    Tell me this: is our complete failure of imagination when it comes to loving one another not the sure Earthly proof that God DOES NOT KNOW US? — Patrick Lynch

    American Evangelicals have demonstrated failure of imagination in lots of areas; why should this one be any different?

    Christians have cast out lots of demons, prophesied endlessly, claimed an infinite number of ridiculous miracles – and it’s gotten us basically nowhere… — Patrick Lynch

    You forgot “set date after date for the End of the World”. I got “prophesied to” to the point I assume ALL “prophecies” are bogus until proven otherwise. (i.e. Burden of Proof on them, not me.)

    “I believe the answer is you cannot. I do not see any way for the Israelite community to bridge the divide with the leper community without affirming their grievous sins against God.” — Patrick Lynch

    There are a LOT of “leper communities” out there, not just sexually-defined. I belong to two of them.

    (You’d never know, because she looks like the “church lady” from the old Saturday Night Live) — Joseph

    Better that she looks like The Church Lady than acts like her.

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24. I meant to write, “I am even afraid to *talk* to many Christians about my struggle, for fear of *how* they might react.”

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25. I am currently going through a spiritual struggle which is revealing to me the extent of my own utter weakness, in and of myself. I want to trust and obey God in the midst of the situation, but doing so is anything but easy for me. Put simply, it is a war.

    What would I do if someone told me that my struggle disqualified me from being a Christian? I might well fall into despair. No one has said such a thing, but I have gotten the impression that some Christians are struggling with *my* struggle, and they don’t know what to say about it (not that that makes them terrible people or anything… it just makes the situation awkward). I am even afraid to *talk* to many Christians about my struggle, for fear of they might react.

    What I’m getting at with all of this is, Christians should not ask, or silently expect, gay people to have all of their struggles resolved before they come to Christ. We *should* love them before they come to Christ– not just theoretically but in our words and our actions.

    What does this look like? At a most basic level, it means seeing gay people as fellow image-bearers of God, made by Him and loved by Him, and in that light, loving them ourselves. It does *not* mean saying that active, practiced homosexuality is not sinful, but it does mean loving people who do “practice” their homosexuality– and *not* just by telling them that what they are doing is sinful. My lack of trust (sometimes) in God in the midst of my situation is sinful, but my brothers and sisters are still called by God to love me through it. So are we called to love active homosexuals.

    There is still the question, though, of how to *best* love professing Christians who are unrepentant about actively living as homosexuals. That is a tough one. I know that part of *my* struggle stems from my own sin, and I am fighting it– not always very well or successfully, but by God’s grace alone, I am fighting it. How do we best love gay professing Christians who are not fighting their sexual temptations and who want us to affirm their acting on them?

    I’m not asking *whether* we are to love people in these situations, but how are we to *best* love them. I do not see Scripture affirming homosexual relationships or sex, just as I do not see it affirming my lack of trust in God.

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26. Recently, when we were with a group of gay friends, my wife said something about church. One of the people in the group said, “You can’t be Christians. They’re mean and hate us. You actually like us.” Everyone in the group agreed.

    For some reason, some Christians think that God has appointed them to the position of “sin inspector”, of other peoples’ sins, that is. Actually, Jesus told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, and focus on our own sins (the log in our own eye).

    Most people, including gays, have a pretty good idea what the Bible says about how they live. Whatever I say is unlikely to convince anyone to accept or live by my interpretation of what the Bible says. My job is to love my neighbor. It is the Spirit’s job to convince, convict and convert.

    Yes, there are those Christians who are kind and loving to their neighbors, including gays. During the recent battle on Prop 8 here in California, however, those Christians certainly appeared to be in the minority.

    Christians regularly love and accept all kinds of people, and even want those people to be part of the church, teach their kids and even be leaders in their churches, even when they know that those people regularly “sin”, according to the Bible. Would this not amount to “affirming their lifestyle”? Yet this is acceptable in most Christian circles as long as the “all kinds of people” do not include gays.

    Isn’t it just possible, even probable, that all of the time, money and effort spent opposing gays could be used to do what the Bible actually tells us to do – love our neighbor? Think of the good the millions spent supporting Prop 8 could have done paying for vaccinations for poor children in third world countries, for digging wells for villages without a source of clean water, and so on.

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27. We are to love both.

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28. Neither homosexuality or prostitution exist as separate, independent sexual destinations. Nobody ever woke up in the morning and decided to be either. Both have elements of loneliness and desperation, self image , sin and confusion. Both lifestyles are very painful, despite the positive press each receives. It is fortunate that in working with prostitutes the bible has so much positive material.

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29. There are many opinions on this subject and i don’t have time to read them all now. I only wanted to comment because of my status as a Christian lesbian.
    I was raised by a preacher, have grown up hearing the Bible preached, have read the Bible myself several times over the years. I knew all the arguments when I realized when I was 21 that I was gay, so I said goodbye to God and headed toward destruction.
    What I discovered was the truths I had read in the Bible applied to all…even me…”Nothing can pluck you from the hands of my Father” (loose translation..no access to my Bible right now), and many others besides that. I found out that God would pursue me to the ends of the Earth because He loves me. I tried to “take up my cross and follow Him” as the tortured Paul recommended. I begged for this “thorn in my flesh” to be removed. I tried this for years…begging, pleading for redemption and release from this life of sin.
    Needless to say, that wasn’t the answer God had in mind for me. Instead, He led me to a MCC church on a Sunday night where a gay preacher was teaching from passages I could recite from childhood. I met with him afterward and we talked about scripture and how when read within the historical context of the time, we are not condemned by God, only by man’s interpretaion of God. I was able to move forward in my life with the knowledge that It Is Well with my soul, and nothing can ever separate me from the love of God. I have never been closer in my relationship 8 years removed from that Sunday night. I live a life of constant awareness of God’s presence in my heart, and i do so with my partner of 6-1/2 years. I know the rest of humanity will catch up eventually because I know with my knower that this peace in me comes directly from God, Jehovah God, Creator of the Universe, and he is not the author of confusion. All will be made clear in His good time.
    In the meantime, I keep the faith, I pray for others and I love you all.

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30. How is flag waiving, SUV driving, expensive appliance buying American capitalism any less of a life style that homosexuality? I wonder how us straight upper middle class people would react to churches trying to change our orientation from capitalism to Jesus. But hey, supporting the torturing of al qaida detainees and buying LCD TV’s is less icky than gay sex…

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31. “This issue resonates with me, because I’m a Christian who struggles with same sex attractions. Unfortunately, my faith has really been strained due to the lack of understanding and support from the evangelical community.”

    Rich,
    Please don’t let this lack of understanding touch your Faith. Christ is with you regardless of the understanding or lack of understanding from people. When I feel alone and misunderstood I reach out my hand and I know that although the hand that holds onto me may be invisible, it is there. It will always be there because it has always been there no matter how much I doubted.

    Do a Google search for gay-friendly churches in your area. You should be able to find a pastor that you can talk to. There are Christians that will listen, although you may have to seek them out.

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32. “It’s the people who USE people as objects that are the problem.”

    Exactly!

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33. “Was I wrong for NOT dropping the party line with my prostitute daugter? Yes, it is painful, which ever way a parent chooses to go. I wonder, was a friend of mine wrong for dropping the party line when he would not except and condone the drug dealing and Meth cooking his son was doing? Tough stuff we all have to deal with. Sin, dang, when it happens it hurts many of it. Believe it or not, I have empathy for any parent that has to go through any of this stuff with their child. I have been there.
    fishon”

    I am horrified that you would compare being gay with prostitution and drug use. Wow! No wonder so many parents are slamming the door on their children, if they are listening to pastors with your views.
    My gay son is the same person today as he was as a smiling little kid who loved to help me bake cookies.

    He has always been creative. These days he spends all of his free time working on his art. He doesn’t go to clubs or parties. He has never used drugs. He works. He goes to church and he creates art. Wow, I wonder how those Christians that have purchased his art would feel if they knew that it came from the creative hand of a gay man?

    It breaks my heart to think how easily families and churches can turn on their own. No wonder so many gay young people are driven to suicide. Can you imagine the pain of having your own family turn you out, to say that the person you are is no different from being a prostitute or drug addict? Can you seriously believe that any person would choose this pain for their life?

    Many of the gay young people I know are so creative. Perhaps God gave them to us so that we might have more beautiful art and music is this world.

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34. Teenage

    May I suggest a thought experiment about your question about homosexuality?

    If it were an innate good, then good things would come out of it? Right?

    So just consider mental health, physical health and stable relationships.

    Are they, in either North America or Europe, about the same or better than heterosexuals?

    (I chose NA and Europe because of the relative freedom in both societies)

    From everything that I have read, the answer is negative in all three categories. This is not to say anything about an individual. I’m sure that there are homosexuals who are healthier and more stable than some heterosexuals. In fact, I probably know some.

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35. One of the things I recognize in discussions like this (which I more often hear in a liberally-dominant environment) is how quickly people resort to stock phrases and caricatures, and how much those two are related. One side busts out their clichés which the other side immediately recognizes and uses to pigeonhole the first prompting their own stock responses. Off goes the dance. (Which is nice and healthy in this thread, but at least polite.)

    How do we recognize and break our own caricatures to genuinely understand the other person? How do we avoid tripping the caricature alarms in the other person so they hear what we’re saying and not what they think we’re saying?

    I tend to intellectualize things and think in terms of rhetoric. I’m assuming Marin goes deeper than this but along a similar vein. If so, I do intend read his work.

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36. Father Z’s site had the right formulation, although in another context. Christ calls us to be in the world but not of the world. That is to be actively engaged in the world but detached from the worldly. That’s the balance I hope is expressed in this book.

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37. On second thought, maybe you have a point..

    “I believe the answer is you cannot. I do not see any way for the Israelite community to bridge the divide with the leper community without affirming their grievous sins against God.”

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38. “I believe the answer is you cannot. I do not see any way for the Christian community to bridge the divide with the gay community without affirming the sexual orientation.”

    Two words for you: AIDS HOSPICE.

    A much tougher question: why didn’t you think of that?

    Lets forget about the ‘Christian community’ – that’s just a silly synonym for ‘church people’ anyways.

    The only thing about us that matters to Christ is our faith in Him and our obedience to His teachings – a faith which He alone knows. Calling ourselves the ‘Christian community is a dodge if we think we’re some kind of vanguard against sin: followers of Jesus aren’t in the business of affirming or disaffirming things.

    Fishon’s quote makes my point: “Gal. 6:1 “Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently….” – You -who are Spiritual- not carnal, etc.

    Who among us is spiritual?

    The Christian has to know he isn’t in order to truly trust in God (and not the mere letter of the Law as written in the Bible!) as the foundation of his righteousness.

    And yes, if we can’t restore a person to right action AND do it gently, we can’t do it in the name of Jesus, and it would be better for us to wear millstone jewelry than to misdirect them with our fear of sin, contempt of them, and anger at failure in our midst.

    The spiritual people, the ones who don’t act like we do but whose thoughts, actions and personalities are reified in the Holy Spirit out of trust in Him, succeed where we fail. They correct others without sinning, and lead people to faith where we would drive them away with stones.

    Needless to say, these people aren’t ‘the Christian community’. We are. And it’s to us that all of Matthew 7 is addressed:

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'” (Matt 7:21-23)

    Tell me this: is our complete failure of imagination when it comes to loving one another not the sure Earthly proof that God DOES NOT KNOW US?

    Christians have cast out lots of demons, prophesied endlessly, claimed an infinite number of ridiculous miracles – and it’s gotten us basically nowhere or, worse, borne bad fruit. Why?

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39. rich w: you wrote

    I feel pushed towards the gay community, because of the understanding and acceptance (although, I have no intention of embracing the gay lifestyle).

    I’ve never had your temptations, exactly, but I’d ask you to find christians that will love you in the midst of your struggles. They are out there (both the christians and the struggles ….) You may have to look for awhile, but I’m praying God takes you there.

    Greg R

    Fishon: you demonstrate both conviction and willingness to learn and grow: hang in there.

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40. Half the time my disagreements with someone are based on my misunderstanding.
    So when I first skimmed over this post I missed something crucial and that makes all the difference. Michael says “this combination of compassionate listening, repentance, passion for the Gospel … ” There it is: repentance. Now everything is fine.

    What I dislike when I hear or read about homosexuality outreach programs is the refusal to admit sin and repent. It doesn’t matter if this sin is worse than that one but it does matter if you ignore it completely. Since the elevation of Bishop Schori in the Episcopalian community it’s reasonable to wonder whether someone else is putting outreach and politics above the Gospel. My first question is: Is this another whitewash, another denial or minimization of sin in order to be more accommodating? This attitude is not rare in the Catholic world.

    Now I’m all for open doors and honesty and heartfelt outreach as long as sin is still sin and the need for forgiveness is still recognized. It’s perfectly normal to struggle with sin and have to go back, repent and confess and repent and confess again and again. I have no problem with that either, especially since I live that way myself. As long as it’s clear that this book isn’t espousing that we look the other way at sin, then I’m interested. It’s not real charity if it doesn’t include reconciliation with God. Some skepticism is warranted given the wide array of modern Christian practice and the build up in the above post about suppressing your knowledge of verses. However if this approach is authentically Biblical and effectively compassionate at the same time it really would be a treasure.

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41. Marin is a missionary to a world many of us know nothing about. We need to listen, really listen, to him. Does that mean we have to agree with each and everything he says? Perhaps not. But we need to listen and listen closely.

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42. Thanks for the book recommendation, Michael. I will put that on my ever-growing list!

    I have a number of friends I went to high school with who happen to be gay or lesbian and I have some other friends I don’t see often who are also. What comes to my mind is that it is almost impossible to view them as being any different than they are. In other words, I cannot see them “learning” to be heterosexual. And for those people who say, “Fine, they are homosexual but then they need to learn to be celibate” I can’t help but think that a committed gay couple, raising a family, being good neighbors, helping each other to grow in love for one another, the world and God are people that we have no need to “fear” and no need to “shun” and no need to try to persuade to “repent.” Think of a heterosexual man having many partners, using women as disposable objects. It’s the people who USE people as objects that are the problem.

    I KNOW what the Bible says and I am going to choose to believe that it is the promiscuous homosexuals that Paul and others feel must repent. I could be wrong about that and if I am and Paul (and others) really feel that a person attracted to people of the same sex cannot be part of the congregation, then I will have to say that Paul was not perfect as he tells us many times and MAYBE, like a commenter says above, he was wrong. I know, I know…thinking anything in the Bible is wrong takes us down a slippery slope. But, if I am going to be wrong, then I am going to be wrong in an attempt to be loving towards all people. And I cannot believe it would be loving to shun people who are doing their best to know and love people and God. The people writing the letters to the churches that we find in the New Testament were still being perfected by God. They were not perfect. They were and we are on the road to perfection but they and we have not completed that journey.

    If we started kicking people out of the church who do any of the things listed in the Bible as being sinful, there would be no one in the church (or very, very few).

    For what it’s worth, that’s my two cents. I know this doesn’t make me a good Catholic. Again, it makes it hard for me to know what I am. I have been attracted to the writings of Anglicans like C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright (and now I see from a recent post from Michael that I should read J.I. Packer too) so if I hadn’t been raised Catholic and feel that it is “home” despite problems that it has, I likely would be Anglican.

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43. Maybe you’ll think this is a stupid question, but…why is everybody so sure that St. Paul is right about homosexuality? Wouldn’t it be reasonable to conclude that he simply absorbed the prejudices of the time, as with slavery etc.? Or are you all (except the Unitarian) committed to the idea that everything in the Bible (or just NT?) is correct? (“Even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff,” as Homer Simpson once said.)

    Somewhere, a bunch of gays are having a parallel discussion about evangelical Christians. And someone will make the suggestion that rather than simply confront you with rainbows and leather chaps and all that, they should take time to get to know you as people, and only then trying to drag you off into the bushes!

    I look forward to the day when evangelical Christians–heedless of the opinion of society as well as their own financial interests–kick out their divorced members in shame, and launch political campaigns against the legal recognition of remarriage.

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44. This issue resonates with me, because I’m a Christian who struggles with same sex attractions. Unfortunately, my faith has really been strained due to the lack of understanding and support from the evangelical community. (I can’t imagine telling any Christians I know about my struggle, because of the comments they have made to me about homosexuality, not knowing my struggle) I feel pushed towards the gay community, because of the understanding and acceptance (although, I have no intention of embracing the gay lifestyle).

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45. Jeff,
    Was I wrong for NOT dropping the party line with my prostitute daugter? Yes, it is painful, which ever way a parent chooses to go. I wonder, was a friend of mine wrong for dropping the party line when he would not except and condone the drug dealing and Meth cooking his son was doing? Tough stuff we all have to deal with. Sin, dang, when it happens it hurts many of it.

    Believe it or not, I have empathy for any parent that has to go through any of this stuff with their child. I have been there.
    fishon

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46. George C asked:
    I wonder why so many Christians have a dog in this race?
    ———Because Jesus put us into the race. Go and make disciples–baptize–teach.

    George asked:Is the concern coming from a love of the truth and/or a love for the person committing the sin or is it just because we don’t want certain kinds of people doing certain kinds of things?
    ——–Though I love my daughter in a different way than a stranger, it is the same concern I had for a prositute daughter’s eternal life as I have for a practicing homosexual. And I am not unique. Millions of other Christian care for the same reason. Just because there are a few wackos giving us a bad name doesn’t mean we are all guilty.
    fishon

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47. Rob,
    You didn’t offend me. I just disagreed with what I thought you were saying. That’s all. I don’t offend easy.
    Peace brother.
    fishon [jerry]

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48. My heart hurts reading this. At one point, I thought I was homosexual, but realized I was acting out of the need for love and friendship, not orientation. I still have homosexual friends that I desperately want to know Christ. However, I cannot reconcile the act with Scripture. Paul and Moses speak against it, and Jesus says that he fulfilled the law, which leaves me with little choice in the matter, if I truly wish to follow Him. However, it is specifically the act that is the issue, not the heart. God never forbids loving another person. I do think that there is a crowd (both right and left) that have driven this issue, so that many homosexuals feel required (within the homosexual community, and by the culture) to IDENTIFY with their homosexuality, which automatically breeds an us versus them mentality. It is our identification WITH our sin AS being who we ARE, that is part of Paul’s letters to the Corinthians speaks to and against. If we identify with our sin, and not with Christ, then we have a problem.

    We are currently in a crisis of thought and discourse in our society, where rational discussion will rarely be heard, and the issue of homosexuality is only one very small piece of it.

    Lastly, it is not just with homosexuality that this issue of noting sin versus accepting it occurs. In a sex-saturated culture (even without the pornography issue), trying to help young people understand that sex outside of marriage is bad (including revealing my own failure in that area and the issue it caused) is getting harder by the second. In revealing my failures, I’ve gotten shrugs. Such acts are no longer viewed by many in the Christian world as a big deal. I am a “post-modern”, and I grew up in this (in the San Francisco Bay Area, no less), yet as much I just want to just let it go, I am (still) surrendering myself to scripture, and what it tells me that God doesn’t like, or what God hates.

    Jesus loves us so much that he loves us where we are, but he loves us so much that he doesn’t want us to stay there.

    ProdigalSarah: you had an excellent question regarding sex only for procreation. I think a good place to go is not Christians, but the Jewish tradition (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/sex.htm)

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49. The nearest city to me was once described as the “closet capitol of the East”. My college had a large gay community. I have found it very possible to communicate with gays and lovingly explain my personal theological opinions, and listen to theirs. I believe gay sex is sinful. My gay friends know that I hold that belief, and although they may think me a Neanderthal for those beliefs, at least I love them enough to share what is to me the Truth. They also know I love them and would do anything for them that would not compromise my own morals. Only Jesus was not sinful. I am to share the Gospel and show the love of Jesus to all. He did not come to condemn, and I dare not.
    If love is the main ingredient and motive , people who disagree wholeheartedly can still interact in meaningful ways.

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50. I have a personal stake in this discussion (a child struggling with her orientation) and I’ll offer this: It has been a very painful and soul searching couple of years. I had to drop the party line real quick or I would have lost her for good.

    I have no definitive answers yet, but the one thing I keep coming back to is God’s sovereignty. For some reason He has placed me and my daughter in this situation so that we can both learn to be more like Christ. Maybe he has done the same thing on a larger scale in evangelical and homosexual communities. Both side have much to learn.

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51. I co-taught Sunday School with a lesbian and she was one of the more devout Christians I’ve met.

    (You’d never know, because she looks like the “church lady” from the old Saturday Night Live)

    I think there is something in being wounded by the world that can make one a better Christian, more likely to love the least of these because they’ve been there.

    Of course, it could go the other way, as we see with many gays who absolutely hate Christians.

    It does take great courage and some kind of call from God for a gay person to enter a church, let alone become a disciple.

    I don’t think that anyone has brought the marriage / child-rearing issue up, but at the risk of being off topic, one of the gay couples I know adopted two children.

    Both children were African-American babies with AIDS. Babies no one else wanted. Babies who will probably die and break their parents hearts.

    You will forgive me if I say they act more Christ-like than I have courage to be.

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52. Why do evangelicals have to act like everyone is a ranting circus act?

    Because they watch too much TV.

    I wonder why so many Christians have a dog in this race?

    Is the concern coming from a love of the truth and/or a love for the person committing the sin or is it just because we don’t want certain kinds of people doing certain kinds of things?

    I have some gay people in my family a a few friends that are gay and my own personal bias is that I don’t care who they have honest, consenting sex with. My only concern is that God seems to have an issue with it.

    Contrary to the nonsense you’ll hear from the culture warriors, people who are not forcing someone, deceiving someone, or betraying someone to have sex are relatively decent people. yes, I believe it is sinful to have sex outside of marraige between a man and a woman, but the guy who steals your parking spot at the mall is doing more damage to the fabric of society than honest, loving gay people.

    The only reason homosexuality is any sort of concern for me is due to my understanding of scripture, but if I could be persuaded that the verses that I understand of condemning a certain behavior meant something different, then I would be totally fine with it.

    Would the rest of us?

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53. I recently had an interesting experience in my chaplain ministry. We had a young gay man who was dying of AIDS and cancer. He’d had some bad experiences with religion, but agreed to let the chaplain visit and also wanted to see an Episcopal priest a friend recommended to him. So we visited together. Turns out the priest is gay and living in a committed relationship. Also turns out that the friend is a transgendered nurse who attends the same church. So, there we were, an odd quartet, all naming Jesus and his salvation as our only comfort and hope in time of need.

    I’ve not quite known how to process this experience theologically, but I do know that I joined in to pray for my dying friend, and I appreciated the support of some sympathetic friends who knew more than I ever could what he was going through.

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54. fishon,
    Forgive me if I have offended you.
    I speak only for myself.
    RL

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55. “It would be those in Portland, Or during the gay pride parade that I would be talking about. And Monk, they are not just a few. They are the norm.”

    A lot of what goes on at the Pride parades is camp. It’s about having one day to let loose and be outrageous for the fun of it. I know people who go and the rest of the year you would probably not know they were gay.

    This is what I don’t get:

    A sports star or a guy in popular music can go on TV and brag about having sex with over a thousand women in his career. No big deal, right?

    Let two people of the same sex commit to one another and you would think it’s the end of the world.

    I think our concept of relationship a little messed up. No, a lot messed up. How can family treat their gay son or daughter, sister or brother as less than human? How can they slam the door and completely shut them out of their lives? How is this Christian?

    Know why so many gay people look forward to the Pride parades? Because everybody needs to know there is at least one place in this world where they can find acceptance.

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56. Patrick Lynch,

    +1. I am not gay (just a female who cared more about asking hard questions and helping others than passing judgment, and was silly enough to think she was called to ordained ministry as a girl), but I was shunned nonetheless for other reasons. And even though I’ve long since healed from that, I have too many kind, loving, and decent gay and lesbian friends to be able to morally live with myself if i gave my prayers, presence, gifts, and service to a religion where they were not welcome. Most of us X-ers and Millennials have openly gay friends who are neither promiscuous nor evil, and I think that if more people had the much more Christ-like attitude Patrick describes, the evangelicals would not be having the population crisis they’re now seeing.

    Fishon,

    What if we agreed that Liberals’ “Ranting clowns” were balanced out by Conservatives’ “Ranting Clowns” and move on to the real issues? I don’t think anyone in this thread is equivalent to Fred Phelps just because of their beliefs on this very challenging topic, and I think most of the gay and gay-friendly readers and posters on this blog, not to mention your evangelism targets, would be more receptive to your message if you afforded them the same courtesy.

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57. Big John wrote: “So I gues I’m asking the 64 million dollar question. How can a church engage the gay community without affirming it?”

    I believe the answer is you cannot. I do not see any way for the Christian community to bridge the divide with the gay community without affirming the sexual orientation.

    From my own experience, it is the lack of affirmation that is, at least in part, one of the reasons why there is anger towards Christians.

    If there is to be reconcilation, there must also be some sort of affirmation. “Go and sin no more” will not work here.

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58. “He might pull a Prodigal Son on them and kill a calf for them anyways. Those among us who try so hard to keep the Commandments would be sooo mad…”

    lol

    The book does sound very interesting. Gonna keep an eye out for it, most definitely.

    Just wanted to say that I have friends who are very conservative Christians and who do hold to the “sin” belief but are extremely loving to people of all sexual orientations indiscriminately. They give of their time, money, resources, love, you name it to all. Far more than I ever have and likely ever will. So I gotta give a hat-tip to them for that. What Fishon says reminds me of them.

    On the other hand, I’m not quite so certain that I’m reading the Bible properly many times so I’m not so quick to do the sorting of sins. Essentially, I’m still trying to learn to follow God’s lead like the rest of the Bozo’s on the bus. And I’m a really slow learner apparently. Small steps.

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59. I was referred to this blog entry via another blog. It’s been interesting reading.

    1. Hate crime legislation won’t send pastors to jail for speaking out against homosexuality. It makes for good, but inaccurate, rhetoric.

    2. I’m a gay Christian. I’m a married gay Christian (married in the church to my husband back in 1997 and soon to be legally married in my state of Iowa — mostly likely in January 2010). I’m a married gay Christian with kids, whom we jointly adopted through the foster care system last year.

    Obviously, we have different understandings of scripture than most of you. I don’t believe that homosexuality is sinful, anymore than heterosexuality is sinful. Sin comes with what we do to others and with our bodies.

    Frankly speaking, I would never enter any of your churches. The expectation that I transform from being gay or become celibate — or that I be transformed by relationship with patient Christian friends/mentors: What would that mean? The dissolution of my marriage? The abandonment of our children? It’s an expectation that no other group is asked to make in order to join the modern church.

    I’m positive that celibacy can be a wonderful gift when freely offered but not as a tax. Even Paul admitted that we’re not all meant for such lives. And yet the church almost universally insists that gay men and women maintain lives of undesired celibacy or into mismatched heterosexual marriages.

    As any married person knows, marriage is not just about sex. It’s about devotion, emotional support, bonding. Your churches want me to give these relationshional aspects so that I can fit some behavioral requirement that was established in your church bylaws?

    For what? So that I can look good in the pews, only to go home to an empty home after church while most of you go home to your own unsacrificed families? I don’t think so.

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60. Patrick Lynch said:
    I think opposing sin is a waste of time.

    It does us absolutely no good to identify things to be against ‘because God is against them’ when the entirety of the Gospel life involves us loving God and each other and leaving everything else (including one another!) to His good judgment.
    ——-Dang, I was going to duck out of this discussion, but I can’t quite yet.
    Gal. 6:1 “Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently….”—That doesn’t sound like God expected us to leave one another to His good judgement.
    fishon

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61. >…they are not just a few. They are the norm.

    I respectfully disagree, and I’d suggest that neither you or I are qualified to make that statement.

    Marin is qualified to speak to it. His research and involvement in the community has given him a unique perspective.

    Many gays are angry and hurt. Most of them were mistreated by people like me.

    peace

    ms

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62. iMonk said:
    {fishon said}…they demand that we do away with our belief that to practice homosexuality is sin.

    {Monk} Now are we talking about the ranting clowns that get paraded onto talk shows and Fox News or the actual real GLBTs you know in your life? The ones in your church and my classroom who hide and never mention it?

    Why do evangelicals have to act like everyone is a ranting circus act?

    ——Monk, good questions and fair ones.
    To a certain degree I am talking about those ‘ranting clowns’ who are paraded on Fox. It is a CNN news anchor that berated one of my kind the other night. It would be an Oberman and Matthews from MSNBC who mock anyone who would dare call homosexuality a sin. It would be a Barney Frank [Congressman] that can go ballistic on someone for calling homo… a sin. It is the liberal Hollywood crowd that mocks and paints a person like me as…you name it. It would be some in the US Congress that are trying to silence me. It would be those in Portland, Or during the gay pride parade that I would be talking about. And Monk, they are not just a few. They are the norm.

    Monk, I don’t claim that all gays are demanding I do away with my belief, so we can have a friendship relationship–but the fact is—-call them ‘ranting clowns’ if you want, but they are driving the process and it is they that are changing the climate towards Christians in our Country.

    Though you would have stopped me from being a part of this discussion if your moderator hat had been on, I am grateful to you for allowing me to continue in the debate. I have tried to be respectful. Thank you.
    fishon

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63. Such a complex subject, and I think it has to be broached with compassion, which is what it sounds like Marin has done … so I look forward to reading him.

    I do have to agree with Fishon above that while “respect” sounds terrific we also really do need to be sure our compassion and respect for personhood is fused with the difficult truths that run counter to our culture. Looking at the state of gay ministries n Roman Catholicism, and all the talk of respect and dignity that easily becomes a slogan for compromise, has been sobering and a a counterpoint I believe also needs to be weighed very thoroughly by Evangelicals.

    But am very glad to have the book recommend on what has been so trying an ‘issue.’

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64. I think opposing sin is a waste of time.

    It does us absolutely no good to identify things to be against ‘because God is against them’ when the entirety of the Gospel life involves us loving God and each other and leaving everything else (including one another!) to His good judgment.

    Apologetics, ‘convicting people’, even evangelism itself is mere self-aggrandization if we don’t understand first and foremost that it’s up to God to defend US from sin, not the other way around. “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil,” we pray.

    If we mean that line, we don’t have to keep all these precious opinions on other people’s sins – we can leave it to God to purify others as we ask Him to purify us, all the while knowing how much WE CHRISTIANS constantly resist His graces and enjoy our sin.

    I think lots of Christians don’t trust God to send the gays to Hell though – He might pull a Prodgical Son on them and kill a calf for them anyways. Those among us who try so hard to keep the Commandments would be sooo mad…

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65. IMonk said, “I’m amazed to meet someone who is as quick to jump on blogs regarding domestic abuse and greed as he is those discussing homosexuality.”

    —–Oops, you got me. Though in my personal ministry I deal with those issues wayyyyy more often than the one being disqusts.

    And your proclamation that it is the evangelical community that is the victim of angry gays reminds me of all the evangelical youth I’ve met in my 30 years whose defining experience in life was rejection by gays.
    ———Hum, I don’t quite know how to address that. I, however, do not think we victims. To me a victim is one who can not or is not capable of defending him/her self. The Church is well able to defend her self, even when it is all blooded up. I suppose my idea of a victim is up for disagreement, though.
    fishon

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66. >…they demand that we do away with our belief that to practice homosexuality is sin.

    Now are we talking about the ranting clowns that get paraded onto talk shows and Fox News or the actual real GLBTs you know in your life? The ones in your church and my classroom who hide and never mention it?

    Why do evangelicals have to act like everyone is a ranting circus act?

    I am sure there are plenty of the examples you cite.

    Marin tells stories of being rejected by gays he wanted to befriend. But he makes it clear that the defining experience for thousands of gays was their treatment by Christians, and that treatment wasn’t speaking the truth in love, commitment, perseverance and kindness.

    ms

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67. IMonk,
    I certainly do not want to bore you with my uneducated rambles, and I know your time is valuable, but I wonder if you are missing the other side of the problem/arguement, that is, the hostility of gays against any critism of their lifestyle?

    You say: “So if someone does what Marin has done- reframe the conversation entirely in terms of friendships, relationships, listening, respect, understanding, etc-” But IMonk, it seems to me that very many gays are demanding that in order to have “friendships, relationships, listening, respect, understanding, etc,” they demand that we do away with our belief that to practice homosexality is sin. Their choosing to have friendship with us is contingent on our betrayel of our belief. I know, I know, there are exceptions. However, in the climate we live in now, that seems to me to be the norm.

    By the way—-I am going to buy the book. I do have much to learn.
    fishon

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68. Fascinating stuff.

    I can’t tell you how loathe I am to put in the comments section of anyone else’s blog a link to something on mine; it’s just so obnoxious. But four or so days ago I published a piece called “The (Confusing) Power of the Devout Gay Christian” that—like all the stuff I write on the relationship between homosexuals and Christians–has … well, for one, brought me too much of the kind of attention I’d rather not get (and, thank God, plenty of it I would). Anyway, if anyone looking for perhaps another angle on this topic cares to read it, that piece is linked to below. Thank you, Michael. I’m certainly looking forward to reading the book you’re writing. It’ll go huge, I’m positive.

    http://johnshore.com/2009/04/29/the-confusing-power-of-the-devout-gay-christian/

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69. ….2 things i”ve learned in this life sofar..1-There but for the Grace of God go I…and..2-Never say Never….

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70. Reread the MONK’s post above mine: maybe what gays need along with JESUS is a friend that looks a lot like JESUS, who sounds like JESUS, who treats them as JESUS would….maybe that’s where this thread is going…at least for me. In the absence of that friendship, maybe the “thou shalt not’s” fall flat…or worse.

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71. >It is sin and all sin is a big deal to me.

    An extraordinary statement. If there is anything obvious to me in my life it’s that I have fine tuned my outrage at sin to be hyper sensitive to some and almost totally blind to others.

    I’m amazed to meet someone who is as quick to jump on blogs regarding domestic abuse and greed as he is those discussing homosexuality.

    And your proclamation that it is the evangelical community that is the victim of angry gays reminds me of all the evangelical youth I’ve met in my 30 years whose defining experience in life was rejection by gays.

    Truly extraordinary.

    ms

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72. Anna A,
    I don’t live in an ivory palace, so I do know that there are abuses perpetrated upon homosexuals in the Christian community. But often times, we are accused of hate, intolerance, bigotry, and you name it just because we point out that practicing homosexuality is a sin.

    I do not spend much time of that particular sin in preaching and teaching to my local, rural congregation. But if on the occasion that I would bring it up, and the wrong person is in the audience, I would be branded a hate monger, etc. I would be lumped into the Fred Philps camp. But I am far from that camp. I am in the same camp that calls the practice of drunkedness a sin, but I have never been called a hater of drunks. I know of what I speak. I was one until I was 33.

    I am in the same camp that says practicing lying is a sin, but I have never been call intolerant of liars. So why when I/ point out praciting homosexuality a sin are we labeled…?

    Miss Calif. is a great example of a Christian giving an opinion based on the Bible; look what that got her, even death threats. She was not hateful or ugly in any way in which she answered a question she could not duck.

    Many ask, why is homosexuality a big deal to many Christians. For me there are a couple reasons. It is sin and all sin is a big deal to me. And the other reason is this: The gay community is not tolerant of my opinion about their practice. They do not want me to be able to call it sin–{and soon it will land preachers in prison for doing so}, and a great many of them insist I accept their lifestyle and/or keep my opinions and belief to myself. That, my friend is very dangerous.

    Does it not bother some of you who believe the practice of homosexuality is NOT sin, that I will not be able to voice my belief in a few short years without the threat of going to prison? Congress took the first big step towards that yesterday. Yep, homosexuality is a big deal. Many who call it a perfectly exceptable lifestyle are trying to silence people like me.

    As I reread what I have wrote, I believe I have voiced my opinion in a kind way. I wonder, thought, how many thing me a hater because of my opinion?
    fishon

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73. JohnO: we agree that the gospel is to go out at all times, to all people. We are commanded to “sow bountifully…” and sometimes we preach by what we DON’T say: to whit…I work every day with two homosexuals; we have worked shouler to shoulder for three years. I have not said WORD ONE about homosexuality, tho I would, and will, when I’m sure it’s time. In the meantime, we’ve talked about a lot of other topics, including church, and Jesus, from time to time.

    These friends do not have to “attain” to anything to anything to hear the good news from me, but their lifestyle IS a filter thru which they hear my words about who JESUS is and what HE did. I’m not saying this is an insurmountable mountain, but it IS a mountain….but no more so than heteros shacking up and seeing marraiage as disposable/optional.

    I’m very convinced that FIRST we get a clue as to who JESUS is, and THEN the peices of life come together, not the other way around. To repeat or paraphrase one on Fishon’s points: we love these gay friends precisely by offering them a way OUT. And they desparately need a way out. That would be JESUS.

    PS to FIshon: you are more lucid than you give yourself credit for….keep walking toward the LIGHT and speaking the truth in love.

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74. The poison in the conversation from the evangelical side is that we are completely unwilling to let the subject come up without running the entire collection of questions that we believe must be answered according to our own preferences. So if someone does what Marin has done- reframe the conversation entirely in terms of friendships, relationships, listening, respect, understanding, etc- then we can start asking “Where’s the answer to this question? If it’s not forthcoming, then perhaps Marin and Spencer are hiding something. Maybe they are both for (insert worst case scenario here.)”

    Here’s where I have a different world than many other people. I am surrounded by non-Christians in my classes, and Marin has challenged me all over again in areas I am deeply aware of from my own journey. I am so aware after reading this book of the pain of being a young person who desperately DOESN’T want to have same sex attractions, who feels God is punishing them, who assumes they are doomed to hell, and then here are so many evangelicals talking IMMEDIATELY about throwing them out of church.

    How many gays are employed by churches NOW? How many have ALWAYS been in our seminaries? Is the issue that we just want to be left alone to have our rhetoric, even as we look at our instrumentalists and almost certainly KNOW?

    Marin is not cooperating with the coopting of the conversation down the same tired roads. This isn’t a book about the issues of how to announce what’s wrong more loudly. As I read this book, every kind of Christian would benefit. Marin beautifully lays out the message and DEMANDS of the Gospel to all of us WITHOUT SINGLING OUT someone because of sex.

    ms

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75. greg r,
    Oh, I certainly agree with your statement: “…there is a certain kind of respect that all GOD’s created humanity gets).” The Cross, the Blood, the Empty tomb demands respect for humanity.

    Maybe I interpreted Rob incorrectly, but it seems to me he was saying that all humanity deserved the same respect irreguardless of the “practice” of sin in their life. That is, intentional, thoughtout, in your face sin. It is in that context that I was defining respect.

    Man, this form of communication is difficult for a person like me with very few writing skills.
    fishon

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76. Fishon,

    While a pastor doesn’t have to say whether a sin seems unforgivable or not, it’s the whole feeling of the church community that tells you. In fact, the preacher could say “All sins are forgiven” but if the sinner is nudged out or ignored, then the actions speak louder than words.

    I think that part of the challege is due to the culture. I know that a lot of my information about homosexual culture comes from the mass media. Talking about Gay Pride Parades, bathhouses, etc. That turns me off. So how do we get to the point of talking to each other without the loudmouths on both sides getting in the way?

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77. I don’t know about anyone else but it seems to me that there is currently substantial social and worldly pressure to ignore , minimize and excuse sins of all kinds but especially homosexuality. For me the whole “live and let live/ forget about it” philosophy would be the easiest and most natural thing to do. But the Bible and Church teaches that these things matter on some level, so I can’t ignore the issues entirely, although I’d sure like to.

    I for one also feel zero guilt about alleged bad experiences that any individual might have toward the Church. I didn’t perpetrate them myself and I resent being accused even by remote implication if I’m not exquisitely sensitive to every perceived slight. Who hasn’t had a grievance of some kind with a Christian? Worst rip off I ever fell victim to was by a “Christian” or at least he claimed to be. When I was a kid I got the “you Jews killed Christ” treatment, as if I drove the nails personally. I didn’t need some tailored walk on eggshells approach to see Christians favorably. I grew up and got over it. Doesn’t real respect mean being treated just like everyone else? Does there have to be a special outreach for every class of sinner?
    Don’t separate yourselves, don’t be a hyphenated Christian, just mix it up with the rest of us.

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78. greg r said: “their lifestyle is a very real roadblock to the gospel”

    I’m not picking on you personally, but I have heard this sort of comment from many people. What is says is that a person needs to meet a certain standard before they can hear the gospel. This is simply untrue (and maybe not what you meant anyway, so apologies if it wasn’t). The gospel is that God loves us anyway, regardless of the stains we bear. Once we accept that, then we are open to change through the Spirit. For a gay person that may mean struggling with celibacy. For the greedy that may mean finding it in their heart to give more to charity. The point is, the change, whatever it may be, comes as a response to God’s love, not as a way to earn it in the first place.
    I haven’t seen the book, but it strikes me that it is coming from this latter position – love first, change second (and the change may be in you, not in the person you think it should be).

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79. Add me to Parsifal: I’m confused on this as well…

    What I’m unclear about is if IMonk or Mr. Marin are talking about how Christians have failed to love gay folks well, in which case I’d agree wholeheartedly–or if they’re suggesting that we need to rethink sexual orientation as sin, in which case I’d have to respectfully decline.

    Greg R.
    well said, parsifal, BTW

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80. GratefulForGraces,
    I agree with you. If an adult chooses celibacy, that is their choice. However, all adult humans have sexual desires to some degree or another. It’s not reasonable to tell an entire group of adults that sex is off limits for them for their entire adult life. I know gay couples who have been in committed relationships for 20+ years. I don’t think you get that far in a relationship unless fidelity means a lot more than sex.

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81. I’m very intrigued and will certainly read the book (although I think it should be mandatory that all books should be available via Kindle! – take note, Mr. Marin, in case you have any pull with the publisher).

    I, for one, do not understand the strange obsession that many evangelicals have with gays. I hear all of the time from the culture warriors among us that they are “eroding the fabric” of our “Christian” nation, that they are threatening traditional marriage (I fail to see how anybody else’s marriage could threaten mine, plus, isn’t rampant divorce among Christians what is threatening evangelical marriage at the moment?), that they all have an “agenda”, and the ever-popular comparisons with pedophiles (although that’s been shown not to be the case – pesky facts).

    I have sworn off of the culture war so I think my eyes must glaze over when this comes up in my evangelical circles. But on a broader scale, I am concerned about how we (me and my family) can do a better job of reaching out to gay people (and all people). Maybe this book can help.

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82. willoh: don’t think this has anything to do with condemning people for their sexual orientation or any other sin. Condemning sinners isn’t the gospel.

    Some of my gay friends are kinder and more compassionate than I’ll ever be and some of them are self-righteous, insufferable human beings who spend a lot of time judging other people. That isn’t, or shouldn’t be, surprising. Gays and straights share the same human nature.

    The good news is that if we repent and believe the gospel, we are reconciled with God. And Jesus commands us to deny ourselves, take up our crosses and follow him without telling us what that’s going to look like in a 21st century world. But the command is there.

    What I’m unclear about is if IMonk or Mr. Marin are talking about how Christians have failed to love gay folks well, in which case I’d agree wholeheartedly–or if they’re suggesting that we need to rethink sexual orientation as sin, in which case I’d have to respectfully decline. It seems pretty clear that God does not condone fornication, adultery and same sex sex. I still love my gay friends and my straight friends who are pursuing things other than God. My focus is not on the sin, everyone’s got sin, it’s on the relationship with God and the lack thereof. ‘

    But, it’s the Bible and those texts that seem to clearly condemn sex outside male-female marriage that create all the problems for gays and straights. And I don’t really know a way around that.

    If there’s something I’m missing, I’m happy to be shown my mistake.

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83. I see a lot of blurring of categories, or the potential to, in this thread. Many have taken shots at the big elephant that has walked thru the evangelical living room for several decades: we’ve made homosexuality the BIG SIN,and done the wink, wink, nudge-nudge on many others. Agreed. We’ve done a terrible job trying to figure out how the gay and lesbian believers have gotten to this place in their journey, and what could have put pressure on them to go down this road.

    Having admitted the obvious (to me ), we are still talking about loving fractured broken people: and homosexuality is brokeness (do we need to talk about that, or is that an accepted reality ??). Not necessarily any MORE broken than a porn addict or a violent man who beats his wife and kids, but LOST is LOST…. My gay and lesbian friends (yes , I have several) are not a special category of sinner, but their lifestyle is a very real roadblock to the gospel. What is my message to them ?? I’ve reread Fishon’s posts and fail to see the error of his thoughts (except for perhaps a too narrow definition of “respect”: there is a certain kind of respect that all GOD’s created humanity gets).

    I fail to see how helping someone see their homosexuality as a broken, and futile, way of life as anything less than loving and redemptive. I’d do the same for someone living in heterosexual sin as well. Really, not that different.

    Greg R

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84. willoh
    It occurs to me that it is possible that those who step into the pulpit, claiming God’s inspiration to condemn ANY sinner as hopeless,….
    ——-I am 62, been a pastor for 12 years, and a Christian for 29 years. I have NEVER heard anyone from the pulpit make such a statement as an “sinner as hopeless.”

    Willoh, I don’t disagree that to say such a thing would be despicable, but how many times have you actually heard such a comment from a pulpit?
    fishon

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85. It occurs to me that it is possible that those who step into the pulpit, claiming God’s inspiration to condemn ANY sinner as hopeless, the pedophile, the drunkard, the adulterer, the thief, the idolater, or the homosexual, may actually be committing the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit…. — Willoh

    Usually they only denounce the sins they themselves have NO chance of committing. Ever.

    But one they DO commit (like the characteristic Christian sin of destructive gossip)? Well, that’s different: “It’s Under The Blood”; “Christians aren’t perfect, just Forgiven”; etc.

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86. A. Buddhist said (a long way up in the comment thread):

    It may or may not be relevant that the Inter-Varsity Press (typically for Protestant publishers) aims at about a high-school reading level, while the dharma presses tend more toward graduate-level material.

    But Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

    The Buddhist “survival of the smartest” view seems quite cruel to me – given that there will always be someone more enlightened than you/me.

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87. No one can say with total confidence which sin is worse and we know this because we are warned about judgment and our own tendency to magnify our neighbors sins (motes) while minimizing/ignoring our own (beam). I think this dovetails with the Church discipline question in how does one effectively and charitably correct a brother or sister without being out of line/excessive on one hand and without ignoring or condoning sin (of whatever kind) on the other.

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88. Re ProdigalSarah
    The key point for me is not what married couples get up in bed to but how the church treats Christians (such as me) who are divorced and remarried. I know that my divorce was a sin (even though my ex wife was metal ill , a drug addict and left me to boot) but no matter what the law says in a very real way I am still married to her. In the eyes of God I am an Adulterer (my second wife is also a divorcee to add insult to injury) but I am also a redeemed sinner innocent in the eyes of God simultaneously saved and sinner. I would never argue that being gay is not a sin (yes I am arguing that the inclination not just the sex act is a sin) but I am convinced that they can still be Christens regardless of weather or not God allows them to conquer this particular sin. And as such we are obligated to treat them as our brothers and sisters.

    God Bless

    Steve in Toronto

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89. There is no difference in the degree of their sin. As far as running the church, both are to be shunned from the church if their sins are known and they are unrepentant (1 Cor. 5). This is very clear teaching, unless we’re picking and choosing passages we like. The shunning, as was recently done in my church (not for homosexual acts), is done with a humble pleading for their turning from sin, and with the goal of reconciliation to the body in the future.

    Doing the hard things is more loving than false peace. Jesus said to her, “Your sins are forgiven. Now go and sin no more”.

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90. I believe in everyone living a chaste life, straight or gay. What I have always struggled with is the fact that it’s theoretically possible for straight people to marry and have sexual relations within marriage. It seems unfair and cruel that GLBT individuals will never even have the opportunity for a chaste sex life because marriage is forbidden to them.

    Does anyone else have trouble with this? How do you deal with it?

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91. It occurs to me that it is possible that those who step into the pulpit, claiming God’s inspiration to condemn ANY sinner as hopeless, the pedophile, the drunkard, the adulterer, the thief, the idolater, or the homosexual, may actually be committing the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit by assigning the words of Satan to God.
    Given the definition of adultery provided by the Lord Himself, given the commandment to love thy neighbor, picking any group, defined by sin proclivity or race or political affiliation is very hypocritical.
    There are flagrant fornicator straights and gays. Could some one please show me the difference in the degree of their sin?

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92. Mr. Marin,

    The easiest way to make yourself a leper is to be open about who you are in “the church.” The second easiest way is to accept those that have.

    Thank you.

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93. iMonk – I am overwhelmed and humbled by your words. They are something I will truly treasure as long as the Lord grants me time on this Earth.

    Thom – it is your life and your faith, and those of your GLBT brothers and sisters that have changed my life from a Bible-banging homophobe to someone who sees Christ’s countercultural call to live as a distinct follower of the Way in a completely different fashion.

    My prayer is that this book will be able to bring that same experince I live to the many people in this world (especially my other straight brothers and sisters in Christ) who continue to perpetuate the culture war – driving all of us from each other, and from our God.

    Much love.
    Andrew Marin

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94. I’m with CEY on this. My experience with homosexuality in the church has been that the church and Christians are very accepting of the person, but not accepting of the sin. Basically, your relationship with Jesus is the first priority, and any sins you currently have will be between you and God after you get yourself right with God.

    I have also seen a lot of Christians like my grandparents’ attitude toward race. My grandparents sometimes said things about black or Native American people that offended or embarrassed me, but one day I realized their actions were the complete opposite of those statements. When black musicians came to town and could not find hotels that would accept them, my grandparents put them up for free. Many of their neighbors were black, and they regularly ate together, helped each other, laughed and cried together. When I asked my grandparents about this, they seemed surprised. “They’re our friends,” they told me, as if they did not even understand my question.

    I see Christians behave the same way toward homosexuality: in the abstract they will generalize and sound offensive, but when dealing with a living person, they are loving and accepting. Now we need to curb out tongues.

    My experience has also been, however, that many gays, like sinners everywhere and of all kinds, get angry if you do not eventually say their lifestyle is acceptable. I have known adulterers to do the same. The “my sin is not my fault” response. Repentance always has and always will be necessary for a relationship with God, and it is something we must all do daily.

    I look forward to reading Marin’s book and seeing what he has to say.

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95. I have not read the book, but am looking forward to reading it. I do think we as Christians treat homosexual activity different from other sins, and we need to repent of that.
    I just googled mr. Marin, and regardless of what he wrote or has done, he still gets hammered by the GLBT community on a variety of blogs. I do think this is an area we have to get better at ministering on a local/personal level, avoiding any press or national “outreach” Gay or straight, people are hurting, broken, and guilty and in need of a Savior.

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96. I started to write, and it kept getting longer and longer. Not sure how productive what I had to say would have been so instead I’ll substitute this shorter comment.

    I’m a lesbian. And I’m not going to say whether I believe it’s a sin or not — because I don’t believe that’s the major issue.

    Most Christians don’t have any concept how deeply hurt gays are by Christians’ treatment of them. The very people we should be able to turn to for help and support are also the people who judge us the harshest. Please, when you say something in church or among your Christian friends or on a Christian blog, realize a gay person may be listening. Is what you’re saying loving? helpful? accepting of the person (if not his/her behavior)? Does what you’re saying help draw gays to God and his people, or does it push us away?

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97. [Mod edit]

    I would have not asked my questions if Rob had just said, “There is plenty of room for us to love,” but to add respect adds a whole different dimension to Rob’s sentence.

    [Mod edit]

    Maybe I have it wrong, but as I understand ‘love’ and ‘respect,’ they are not the same, and we can have one without the other. Let me give you an example.

    I have a daughter that I love and respect. However, there was a time when I loved my daughter, but I did not respect her. She was a prostitute among other things, and was traveling a fast road to death. But by the grace of our Lord, she is my living prodigal. In her battle to overcome sin and a miserable life [which she has] I have gained great respect for her. Never doubt that I always loved her, but not always respected her.

    Fr. Ernesto, are you suggesting that ALL people deserve ‘respect?’ If so, then why do we even have the word respect in our language? No doubt we are to have the love of Christ for all people, but to respect: 1. High, often deferential regard; esteem [American Heritage Dictionary], is that not earned?

    Fr., no, I am not a youth minister. I pastor a small, rural country church out in nowhere. I did, however, lead youth, and can assure you that those I loved, but didn’t respect ever knew it. Why in the world would I choose to show them that I don’t respect them? I saw their areas of need and tried to teach them. Never pointed teaching at them–but lessons to the group.

    Fr., are you telling me you respect “1. High, often deferential regard; esteem” the same?

    Scott wrote
    What is so bad or offensive about what fishon wrote? I echo that question.

    I did not bash–accuse–belittle–point fingers. I simply asked questions about respecting people who are ‘practicing’ particular sins because it appeared to me that Rob was advocating ‘respect’ for all mankind.

    One more little story and I will stop. A man who had spent time in prison for pedophilia came to me and asked me if he could attend the church I pastored. I said, “Yes.” We talked about the fact that people may leave because he would attend–but I assured him that I was prepared to accept that. In fact, if leadership was to tell me to get rid of him or they would get rid of me–well, I guess I would be gone. That did not happen, however. My point is this——I loved the guy because Jesus loved him and died for him—–but I did not respect him. I would have lost my position for him because of love–not because of respect.

    So I ask you who would criticize me for my questions—–would you loose your ministry for one pedophile? Would you lose your ministry for one homosexual? I would, because I love them like Jesus. And like Jesus, I would tell them, “Go and sin no more.”

    fishon

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98. I’m tired of having my life and my faith used to sell books.

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99. Interesting timing for me. I haven’t thought about the topic in a while (but it is always in the back of my mind . . . especially what would I do if one of my kids announced they were gay).

    Then this week I get an invitation to visit a new church experience, being planted by a mainline Lutheran church on our island. It is called the “Theology Pub” and actually takes place it a pub. My dream church has always been a place where I sit around a pub or coffee shop discussing theology, philosophy and the deep realities of our personal lives as they intersect with scripture and God’s revealed truth. Somewhat like Tomlinson’s (The Post Evangelical) “Holy Joes.” I was ready to attend.

    Then I clicked on the church’s main web page. I knew that my pastor despises this church for a multitude of theological and cultural reasons (but he also despises many of my views). But there on their home page were the words, “We welcome gays and lesbians.”

    My first take was very positive, that’s great. Then I felt a wave of confusion. What does this really mean? I have several gay friends in business and all of them hate the Evangelical world. I briefly imagined a church that was mostly gay, where Bibles were burned instead of candles . . . or at least certain verses of those Bibles. So I don’t know. Is the problem with me? The topic certainly makes me uncomfortable . . . which is a good thing. Jesus made a lot of people uncomfortable. I hope to buy the book.

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100. I’ve known and loved and been close to several gay people in my life. These particular people happened to be lovable. They also happened to be kind, generous and accepting of me.

     As I’ve gotten older, I’ve marveled at the heart these people have. In my imagination, an individual who is considered a monster by so many could easily be filled with hate for all of us who aren’t gay.

     The thing is, I just can’t pronounce worthless the love between two people. When a couple have been faithful to each other for years , well, all I can say is, there are plenty of Christians who can’t make that claim.

     Ultimately, it’s easier to love gay people than to hate them. Hate takes an awful lot of energy, and I just don’t have it. Even so, it takes everything I have not to hate terrorists and all those who victimize others.

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101. (((iMonk, since the blog is on moderation perhaps it is safe to post this. If this goes too far, I completely understand if you do not post.)))

     “I was listening to John Pipers Q&A pod cast a few days ago and he advocated shunning (he called it holy ostracism) of Gay Christians who where not celibate”

     When I was young I somehow got the impression that once married, whatever happened in the marriage bed was OK. Did I misunderstand? Is the married Christian couple only allowed to engage in coupling that will result in offspring? I only ask because if the answer is anything other than yes then this view of gay and lesbian couples is hypocritical.

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102. First I don’t know and really don’t care how individual churches deal with the “gay” issue.
     I would say, as some have above, that the church has much bigger problems to deal with.
     Avarice in the top 5, maybe #1 on your hit charts.
     I choose to deal with the people I meet, children of friends and others as I would want to be dealt with.
     With love for the person and respect for their humanity and as a person.
     As far as respecting the list of sins presented earlier I would say that almost everyone of them involved actively hurting someone else so in need of immediate stoppage.
     These kids are more than anything else lonely.
     A young lady who I recently met, whom I thought was a young man at first, absolutely convinced me that she is a Christian.
     She is shunned by her SBC church that she grew up in.
     It is only anecdotal but every gay man that I know personally from childhood were gay form day 1.
     I also know for a fact that no one in their right mind would choose this life especially here in the South.
     I know this is a difficult issue for many and I understand and sympathize.
     I also know that is is hard to demonize a person you know and have dialogue with.
     And if anyone is wondering I am a 56 year old father of 3 and grandfather of 4. Married and happily hetero. Not that it matters.

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103. Way back when I was a child I sat at church with my mother while the church deacons voted to keep the church segregated.

     After my long absence from the church I was startled to discover that for the most part churches are still segregated in the South.

     Segregation led to the founding of many thriving churches that are mostly African-American. These churches have now become cornerstones of their communities. The result is that in many communities churches are still divided by race. Not because of segregation but because those who were not welcomed built up their own churches.

     Now I am the mother of a gay son. He chooses to attend an MCC church where he can find a sense of community. About once a month while visiting I go to church with him. I do not know how anyone could visit this church and doubt that this is a congregation that loves Christ.

     So is this how Christians plant churches? Forcing the unwanted to start their own? The last time I visited my son’s church they were taking up a collection to help churches in other countries where gay people are routinely brutalized and killed.

     I have prayed with several young gay men who have been disowned by their Christian families. One young man with physical disabilities was beaten when his parents found out he was gay. They thought they could beat him into going straight. Another, well his parents lie to their friends and say their son is engaged to a lovely girl. Are Christians supposed to lie about their children and in doing so send the message of unacceptance to their own?

     iMonk, thank you so much for reviewing this book. I bought a couple through your link.

     And you better believe I will buy your book too.

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104. This is a message that may be more important than any issue evangelicals are currently discussing short of the content of the Gospel itself.

     IMonk, today “God Hates Fags (TM)” IS “the content of the Gospel”, along with Young Earth Creationism Uber Alles and Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist. (snark)

     Makes you wonder how the Gospel spread across the Roman Empire like fire across a lake of gasoline if that was all there was to it.

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105. I think an important distinction is that when we speak of the gay community, what we really mean is people who are gay — and look it.

     If they don’t look gay, then they could be sitting in the pews and no one cares. And they are, and we don’t.

     How we treat and judge people in general is based on their appearance. As we evolved we learned that survival meant treating anyone who doesn’t look or act like us as a threat.

     That’s buried deep within our psyches, and it’s one of the things Christ teaches us to overcome in our human nature.

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106. Perhaps it is my RC background, but I do tend to categorize sin, only not into venial and mortal but rather, into habitual and the one “occasion” of sin.

     The treasurer who steals from the company once, repents and makes restitution, is different from say a Bernie Madoff who steals from many habitually over many decades.

     The heterosexual couple who is openly living together is different than the teenager who succumbs to lust in the back seat of a car and loses their virginity.

     The examples could go on and on and on. When I look into my own life, it is the habitual sin of overeating that I desperately attempt to gain discipline over, both self-discipline as well as pleas for divine intervention.

     The first step, of course, is to admit one has a problem; that the problem is sin. I can deal effectually with anyone who admits they are struggling to overcome. It is the blatant, in your face; I am going to convince you it is not sin, routine which I refuse to deal with.

     The Scriptures say what they say and Christians may interpret it differently from one another however, no amount of angst at trying to convince the other side that their interpretation is wrong is worth the energy.

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107. I was listening to John Pipers Q&A pod cast a few days ago and he advocated shunning (he called it holy ostracism) of Gay Christians who where not celibate and had moved to congregations that would not discipline them (churches like the one I worship at). This practice may be biblical (I think you can debate this point since everyone is living with some kind of sin, when was the last time you heard of someone being excommunicated for being greedy) but from a pastoral point of view it seem to be disastrous advice. Is it just me or is Piper sounding more and more like a Characterture of a 16th century New England puritan (I know he is a big fan of Johnathan Edwards)? Does Piper and his “truly reformed” colleges realize that while this brand of reformed Christianity burned very bright for a few years but faded after only a few generations leaving almost nothing but Unitarians in it wake? This is not just a North American phenomenon it happened in England as well. When revival returned to England in the 19th century it was through the establish Anglican Church not the independent Congregationalist churches (who’s puritan ancestors had left the Anglican Church after the restoration). By the time the Wesley brothers were on the seen the English puritan’s grandchildren were almost all Unitarians. I

     God Bless

     Steve in Toronto

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108. What is so bad or offensive about what fishon wrote? Please note: I am not advocating the bashing of homosexuals or adulterers or pedophiles or bestialists or necrophiles. We all ought to agree that one sin’s as good as another to separate us from the Father, no matter how one might nauseate us more than another (there’s probably much to be written on this subject, but pace.

     But does not fishon ask fair questions? Whether or not we agree that the Western evangelical politicized church has cocked up the whole “gay thing” or not, wouldn’t everyone who takes Scripture seriously also say, “Go and sin no more” to the practicing homosexual?

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109. I believe so many Christians hate gays, lesbians and transgendered people, because they themselves are not gay, lesbian or transgendered and therefore it is so easy to condemn them because they are safe targets. I also think many who hate gays actually have those tendencies and are trying to suppress and deny this within themselves. A friend used to always make rude remarks about “homos”. She almost married a man, but at the last minute after great struggle came out as a lesbian.

     Through my work, I also got to know a transgendered woman who was a believer, but was so troubled by her identity crisis. As she had once been a man physically, but always a woman emotionally, she thought she might be homosexual as she was becoming close to a man. I assured her that as a woman, falling in love with a man was not homosexual.

     How can Christians reach gay, lesbian and transgender people for Christ when so many of us hate them? Why do we demand gays become “un-gay” before they can become Christians? Why is this the only sin that is worse than any other?

     And yes,I am a Christian, and I am not gay.

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110. Monk –

     This comment may go down a different road than this post was designed, so if it doesn’t make it out of moderation I understand. You can email me if you want, or you might be thinking about a future post on this topic, I don’t know. Or you can just blow me off, I couldn’t stop you from doing that if I wanted to anyway. 🙂

     But how does Marin say the church should deal with homosexuals in the church? How do you think we ought to address the issue?

     As a pastor, I want my church to be a place where non & wayward Christians can come and not feel attacked. But at the same time, I cannot turn a blind eye to blatant sin in the congregation, whether it be homosexuality or any other sin.

     So I gues I’m asking the 64 million dollar question. How can a church engage the gay community without affirming it?

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111. Thanks for the book recommendation. I have purchased it online. This is an area in evangelicalism that I have been concerned about for some time. The whole Prop 8 debate forced me to think about what a truly gospel-centered grace response should be towards the gay community on the gay-marriage issue as well as in general. I’ve seen how hurtful we’ve been to the community.

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112. Monk, it has been my personal experience(and that doesn’t mean a whole lot) that the individual “Evangelicals” who I know treat the homosexuals in their lives with love and acceptance. Once again, I know that there are many other stories out there that run counter to my experience. But I see that a lot of times the “public dialogue” between Evangelicals and the Homosexual community is not pleasant by any means, but when it takes place in private settings between people who know, love and respect each other it looks quite different.

     We need to understand that how we treat people is addressed in scripture also, quite often in fact.

     It’s been my experience that there are Evangelicals who understand this and are living it, because they love Christ and they love the homosexuals in their lives.

     Once again, many can point to those shouting epithets and holding signs, but I can also point to parents, brothers, sisters, cousins and church members who are treating their homosexual loved ones as just that, loved ones.

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113. Well, this is frustrating. What’s does Marin actually say? I know, go read the book. Not much to comment on when the substance of the post is “Marin has a written an amazing book about what it means to love.”

     I guess I’m not understanding what’s off limits here. Evangelicals trying to follow Jesus and love their neighbors must also grapple with the standard texts on homosexuality. How does Marin grapple with those texts? I’d hope it’s what Fr. E suggested above, that there’s all kind of sin–not just technicolor ones–and we who follow need to understand the depth of our own twistedness while encouraging others with theirs. So we don’t see gay folk as extra repulsive, but sinners just like the rest of us in need of reconciliation with God.

     But isn’t the heart of the matter (I guess what Fishon was trying to get at) that at some point, you have to obey?

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114. We owe our gay brothers and sisters apologies for the persecution they’ve experienced by Christians. We’ve deliberately hurt them and condemned them. How many have been driven away from Jesus in the name of Jesus?

     If we want to be scriptural about it (and how else is there to be?), greed threatens the kingdom of God far more than homosexuality.

     Jesus talked a lot about greed, yet it is the fundamental building block of our society: Dog-eat-dog capitalism and the tying of a person’s income to everything from health care to justice to political influence.

     It seems the world will end if we ordain a gay pastor, but you can bet we’ve ordained a lot of greedy ones.

     People are born gay but no one is born greedy; we give our children more lessons in how to accumulate money than we do in how to accumulate the Kingdom.

     Hypocrisy, thy name is American Christianity.

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115. It’s a hard subject isn’t it….. where I live, a large church in a pretty middle class area of the city has just called a practicing and active homosexual to be their minister. He and his partner will be living as a couple in the manse… this particular denomination has no black and white position on this subject, but other ministers of the same denomination in the city, as well as ministers and pastors of other churches here are trying to get the decision overturned.

     I’m torn between thinking that the congregation must have had very good reasons for calling this particular man to minister to them – regardless of his personal circumstances – yet the evangelical part of me is asking – if the appointment goes ahead, what kind of confused message is it sending out? Thoughts?

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116. Thanks for the recommendation. Looking forward to reading it.

     Have you seen this?

     http://www.ransomfellowship.org/articledetail.asp?AID=506&B=Wesley%20Hill&TID=7

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117. I once had lunch with a girl and classmate I dated years ago in Bible college. After not seeing her for a while, I asked her about any guys she was seeing. She paused, looked me square in the eye, and said, “Jim, I’m a lesbian.”

     I paused, looked her in the eye, smiled and said, “It’s not because we used to kiss, is it?”

     Then we both laughed. She said she told me as bluntly as possible because she wanted to see if she could offend me. I said, “If I’m offended by your choices and behavior, then I’d lose you as a friend.”

     Jesus is known as a friend of sinners. This, of course, includes me. And my gay friends. I know in many ways the issue of sin and salvation is way too big for my puny mind to comprehend. I do know that I’ve been called to love and not judge, to see in people what Jesus sees in them, and love those God loved enough to die for.

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118. Moderation is now on. Sorry folks. One person usually causes this.

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119. MP,

     I think that back in 1970, people didn’t yet feel that they were being forced to accept homosexuality as being no different than heterosexuality (and it wasn’t being taught as such to their young school-aged children). People at the time were still trying to wrap their heads around the upheavals of the ’60s, and the societal implications of the unrest they saw on their TVs, in the steets, and in their homes.

     The nightly reminders that the Vietnam war wasn’t going well; Anti-war riots and demonstrations; women’s rights; racial tensions; the Cold War; fears of nuclear war — plus, the gay rights movement wasn’t as far along as most of the other socio-political movements, so it didn’t seem as threatening (remember, the Stonewall riots had happened just the year before).

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120. Fishon: “How much should I respect the practicing idol worshiper?”

     Did it ever occur to you that you might actually run into one?

     Buddhism has a controversy over homosexuality as well, since certain ancient texts condemn…well, it’s kind of technical. Anyway, this doesn’t much affect the actual situation of gay and lesbian Buddhists, who tend to find Buddhism much more congenial than Christianity.

     It may or may not be relevant that the Inter-Varsity Press (typically for Protestant publishers) aims at about a high-school reading level, while the dharma presses tend more toward graduate-level material.

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121. fishon
     I respect them because I am no better.
     God forbid that my sins are apparent.
     I have many.
     Thank you Father Ernesto.

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122. Monk,

     Thanks for the recommendation. Back in 1970, IVP published a book by Alex Davidson called Returns of Love. It is a series of letters from one Christian man struggling with a homosexual past and current desires to a younger man facing the same temptations. It’s a model of honesty, compassion, and good sense.

     I wonder why it caused no stir in the conservative Christian community at the time, while we all know Marin’s book will set off a tidal wave? Were believers back then less ‘Biblical’ ‘Christian’ or ‘moral’ than we are today? Or, are the words, ‘Biblical, Christian, and moral’ only masking a political cause, and one fueled–not by the Gospel–but by the mostly non-Christian right-wing radio, FOX news, and bloggers?

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123. I don’t believe we should ignore this issue, but it is divorce where the Christian world is failing. Why have we done so poorly here? A recent article in Touchstone raised this issue very well.

     DSY

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124. Fishon, I would suggest that if you are going to appear to say that you need not respect certain people that you throw the following into the list, all of whom will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, according to St. Paul: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

     Please notice that disobedient to parents is one on the list, so I hope you do not have a youth ministry because they would quickly detect your lack of respect for them.

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125. MOD Note: This comment would have not made it past moderation, but since it wasn’t on, I’m leaving it. But only so other comments make sense. It’s the last one of its type I’ll publish on this thread.

     Rob, you said, “There is plenty of room for us to love and respect.”
     I wonder how much respect we should have for the practicing adulterer–or the practicing pedophile? Or how much should I respect the church treasure practicing stealing from the church? How much should I respect the practicing idol worshiper?

     fishon

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126. I’m in a Unitarian Universalist church. Probably as much as 20% of our congregation is gay. Most of these people are committed Christians, but they have been run out of the churches of their youth and the churches they love and they are broken hearted about it. Keep sending them to us. We know how to see the sacred in each person and love them for the people they really are. Besides, they are excellent pledge units and hard workers.

     Oh yea, love the negro, hate the skin pigment. I grew up in the south in the fifties. Ugly business, those “Christians”

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127. Love as a verb.

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128. In my work I travel a fairly large area of the mid-south.
     I often find myself eating late at national restaurant chains.
     I am often surprised by who I find there in these relatively small towns.
     Gay women and men and other assorted sinners and saints. Or saints who are sinners.
     The conversations are fascinating.
     How can you live as a gay couple in Texarkana?
     How do you reconcile being a Christian and living gay in Texarkana?
     This is not my blog and I don’t want to hijack or argue but just this:
     There is plenty of room for us to love and respect.
     Especially love.

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129. Wow. I saw it on our shelf at our store a week or two ago, and perused it. Thanks for the good word. I will definitely check it out. I love IVP for what they do. Most of what has grown me as a Christian in the last few years has been published by them. I used to work in social work in NYC and thus worked with quite a few gay, lesbian, and even some transgendered coworkers. Several were friends of mine. They knew I was Christian, but they also knew that I was accepting of them as people, even if I didn’t believe that their behavior was right. I know that in my own broken heterosexuality, I struggle with what it means to express Gods’ image through my life. It’s no different for those whose orientation is different. They’re just broken in a different direction. God loves us. Thank God.

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130. This is a topic that so many Christians fear. In my family it was hate the sin but love the sinner. I came across as hate the sin and judge the sinner. This attitude drove my cousin away. I have never thought we dealt with this issue in a biblical way. Sure there are some organizations/ministries/Christians who have gotten it right but on a whole I believe we have missed the boat in a big way in ministering to gays and lesbians. I hope to read this book and hear a whole new perspective on the issue and hopefully, as you say, a biblical perspective.

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