NOTE: Sorry to have to turn moderation on folks, but this thread is too risky.
UPDATE: Ed Stetzer sends this along: Todd Johnson of the World Christian Database provided the following response: “This video seems to be making its rounds. It is full of misinformation and misinterpretation of data. We provide more reasonable current figures and projections of Europe’s Muslims in both the World Christian Database and World Religion Database. Jenkin’s book God’s Continent critiques the position that Europe is becoming Muslim. That book is probably the best single counter to this video.”
A few comments on two somewhat related posts about the state of things evangelical as we ponder the Coming Evangelical Collapse.
Someone sent me this Youtube video about the likelihood of Christians becoming minorities in countries dominated by a growing Muslim population.
The implications for Christians: evangelize Muslims and have babies.
Christians- and Jews- have been minorities for much of their history. The New Testament would be a completely different book if it were written to a majority Christian culture.
I can’t think of a single word that Jesus ever said that hinted at a goal of “cultural domination.†With all due respect to some of my Reformed, post-millennial, paedo-Baptist brethren, I don’t see that we’re called to fight a cultural battle by having children.
I’ll get some criticism for saying this, but there’s a racist tinge to this video that I don’t like. I know a lot of Muslims and it breaks my heart to see this kind of material tossed out there smearing them as a threat to “our†culture.
Further, the unstated, but blatantly assumed premise that Muslims will revoke constitutions and destroy the rights of non-Muslims in countries where they dominate is less than certain.
That’s not to discount the influence of Christians, their children and their impact on culture as worthless. It’s not, but it’s simply not the emphasis of Jesus or the early Christians as they functioned in their cultures. Jesus never sounded like the ominous narrator of this video.
The extent to which we influence or “dominate†culture seems irrelevant in scripture, since the salvation of the world is the coming Kingdom of God. “Christian culture†points to and participates in that approaching new heaven and new earth, but our hope is completely in Jesus. Why does the video assume that we’re invested in a particular racial or religious cultural expression?
When the culture warriors begin giving Christians directions on what is important, this is what it is going to sound like. Not the Great Commission or the Jesus movement, but a fearful, exclusionary response to losing cultural influence and experiencing possible persecution. “Immigration†is a word that couldn’t be spoken more ominously in this film.
The response of the church to whatever cultural situation it finds itself in is to proclaim and live the Gospel with integrity. At the heart of that calling is worship, but the outcome of that calling is missions, evangelism and church planting. Our response to the growth of Islam or secularism is to live faithfully, proclaim and teach consistently, evangelize boldly and church plant sacrificially.
So now that we are on the subject of evangelism, what are we to make of Ed Stetzer’s recent announcement that Baptists have heard all the recent emphases on evangelism and declining baptisms….and done less of both? We’re a denomination still in decline, reaching the point where applying the brakes won’t stop the free fall.
I know Southern Baptists have some evangelistic people and churches, but on the whole, we are becoming one of those denominations that fires preachers for not being evangelistic and fires preachers for trying to make us evangelistic. We’re going to apparently pay good people like Stetzer, etc to tell us what we have no real plan to pay any attention to.
A friend recently (within the last two months) took a church of nearly a hundred members, and he reports they apparently haven’t had a new member in 6 years. Good people, he says. They are educated above average, love the church, love the Lord. In Southern Baptist terms, I’d imagine they are all “good witnesses.â€
But it- evangelism- is not happening. I’m really wondering where it does happen. The growing churches I know are either sweeping up Christians with church backgrounds, rebaptizing the church or baptizing lots of children. Few are experiencing any kind of adult evangelistic/conversion growth, and almost none from the efforts of laypersons.
A lot of ink is pouring forth in SBC land in regard to what we aren’t doing. I’d suggest that we are at a place where talking to pastors at conferences and on blogs about what we aren’t doing is going to bring about a lot of the same results we’ve seen: more decline. The vast majority of Southern Baptists- and most other evangelicals– aren’t really touched by that conversation, because they believe evangelism and church growth happen when you have the right pastor and that’s the whole game.
Of course, the theological wing of evangelicals clearly believes that if everyone will line up behind the right understanding of the Gospel, then things will change. Verse by verse preaching, complementarianism and plenty of theology- that will do it. I’m lukewarm on that prospect as far as it applies to evangelicalism as a whole. I’m all for making the Gospel clear and central, but I don’t have any illusions about how that’s going to be received by millions of people in my denomination or anywhere else.
No, the problem is who we have become. I think most of us know this. We knew it when we watched Penn Gillette’s video about the Christian who was willing to confront and proselytize him. We aren’t that guy and we aren’t those people. Oh, we want somebody to be like that, or we want someone to think of a way to evangelize people that we can participate in with a generous financial contribution. But most of us aren’t people who actually try to influence other people toward faith.
Are we universalists? Relativists? Postmodernists? Emergers who have abandoned a belief in hell? Your guess is as good as mine, but I don’t think we are missing information or even motivation. We’re missing the key component of reality. We (a lot of us) REALLY aren’t evangelistic people in the SBC anymore. Study it all you want, but something just isn’t there.
This is where I’m surprised that the pundits commenting on this situation aren’t willing to connect the dots. A big reason that the average evangelical isn’t evangelistic is the focus on the issues and tactics of the culture war. According to the culture war advocates, “those unbelievers†are the enemies of Christians and the kind of Christian culture we believe we are supposed to fight for. Are atheists, gays, Democrats, progressives and non-evangelicals in America actually people evangelicals are looking at as potential Christians? Give me a break.
The people in my friend’s church who haven’t seen a new member in 6 years? I’ll guarantee you that the discussion in those Sunday School classes are about how hard it is to be a good Christian witness in these terrible times with the liberals running the country. Being a witness = opposing the agenda of the anti-Christians trying to destroy the culture and corrupt our children.
The new “evangelism†is the culture war. We aren’t winning souls. We’re protecting out culture. If the other side wants to admit we’re right and come on over, great. (To see that mindset, read the Andrew Marin discussion thread.)
When I was a pastor, I got this great idea of starting a Bible study in a large, crowded trailer park near our church. There were a couple of hundred pre-fab homes, lots of families and I wanted to find someone willing to let our church host a Bible study one night a week. Simple outreach, right? No cost. No controversy. Local missions, etc.
So, I promoted this every way I knew how, and I’m pretty good at promotion after being a youth minister for all those years. My church- a church that had assured me they wanted nothing so much as to reach their community and grow- looked back at me with the deer in the headlights look you get when you’ve suggested we actually go knock on doors in the community.
Only one church member came out to help me. (One deacon, as I recall. God bless him.) It was amazing what would come up on a person’s schedule when you said the words “trailer park†in the context of the church’s mission. For most of a month, I covered that trailer park a couple of days a week, knocking on doors, finding no interest and getting no help. I stopped harping and made it my project.
Then I not only discovered a home willing to host the Bible study. I found a family- an entire family with kids- willing to visit our church.
They were, as we would have said, “trailer park people,†and our church was middle class, blue collar; all very proud to not be as low as those “trailer park people.†I should have noticed that no one from our church lived there, but back in those days, my optimism occasionally got out of hand and I missed the obvious. These people weren’t from our side of the tracks.
Do I have to tell you how this worked out? I didn’t think so.
One Sunday visit was all it took to make the indelible and correct impression that they were not “like us†and were not going to get a warm reception. Despite the stalwart attempts of a few good people, my “trailer park†people never came back.
This incident remains with me because my church had, previous to my coming, experienced quite a bit of growth under the previous pastor. Like most other Kentucky Baptist churches, that growth was along the lines of family, marriage and children; reaching “unchurched†members of the clans that dominated our church. Because this kind of growth was facilitated by the popularity of the previous pastor and it resulted in family pride, it was the kind of growth the church embraced. It gave them exactly what they wanted: their families next to them in the pews.
But when I asked our church to do baby steps of evangelism outside of those lines and into a different culture right out our back door, I got nothing, even though many of our people were mature Christians, trained in evangelism and genuinely wanted church growth. I would get a hundred for a gospel singing on any rainy Saturday night, but go do evangelistic work in a trailer park? See you Sunday pastor.
This is not a conversation about understanding the content of the Gospel. It’s not a conversation about methods. Even though it should be, it’s not a conversation about the role of the pastor. (It’s ridiculous that we’ve become so enamored of preachers that church members will openly say their church is growing because the pastor and his wife are “cute.â€)
This needs to be a conversation about who we are, and if the average Christian in our churches would be willing to do anything, personally, in the cause of evangelism?
We have become a denomination whose leaders talk about evangelism, but whose people actually want little to nothing to do with it.
Our decline is because of who we want to be and how we want things to operate. We want the culture to adjust to us. We want our families to be saved. We don’t want to cross any barriers and we don’t want to have do something we decided the pastor is paid to do.
Get ready for many, many years of this. I think most churches will die before they will change this pattern.
NOTW: When a great unifying and focused evangelistic call does come, be sure that it will prompt plenty of controversy from the status quo.
The Internet Monk Archives 
p.s/
i speak to all kinds of people from many countries including muslims
both what i call [legalistic muslims and non-legalistic]
everyone is my neighbor, in fact i am learning boundaries.
and this is here in the states, it is very odd, actually.
i would have never in my life: seen this coming.
i kind of wish i had some debriefing: but oh well.
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i forgot to touch on this particular “neighbor” issue at hand.
i think the turmoils between christians/ and family issues are way harder.
that is the funk. but i do believe God is helping us work that out.
thanks again for time.
xo.eternal.
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i did not watch the video/ i have seen enough and heard enough of this strange warped agenda for at least 30 years or so.
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however/ speaking from an evangelical stance: and when i say evangelical i mean evangelize: as in the way the Scriptures meant: as in the way the great commission was set before the church which apparently is still in place[if it is 2009]: which i believe includes any person who has simple faith that Jesus is their saviour/ and at same time i do not believe that the great commission was ever actually something to be completely fulfilled “by the church in total”/ [sorry for this run-on sentence i am a poor writer!]
..
but/ there are times when i myself keep my mouth shut as a Christian and times when i do not/ there are times when i speak very specifically about the good news/ the gospel of Jesus Christ and times when i am very vague according to the situation/ there are times when it seems like “well, guess i will never be talking about Jesus ever again, what the heck was that all about ???” then WHAM suddenly the “evangelizing? or whatever we are calling it these days is happening again and it is different and yet still very potent and i do not have any power over this and it is not because of going to seminary or reading books on how to do this [save the scriptures] it is just i guess because God is doing this? but it certainly has nothing to do with making some sort of jesus /christian denomination halfmuslim baby race???? this is very strange/ and absolutely un-biblical: jesus’ desire is that all shall be saved and none be lost. i do not think we as finite beings can either understand this infinite desire.
..
however, ultimately: really He is in control of such salvation and this has nothing to do with race. and btw He did bless what is now the muslim nation/s then in 4 different huge sections of history
and this is seen in the scriptures/ even as yet still the Jews are still the chosen, and the Gentiles are grafted in. i think people / and i can include myself, just dont want to really focus on God in the midst of turmoil. when God HImself says do not be alarmed when all this stuff happens, and also He said He would end up blessing all nations under the [Jews} primarily / [one way or the other/ and the ones grafted in would cause them[Jews] to be jealous. [i am of course speaking of those who have not become fully awake] however: i dare not speak or judge any man’s heart this is up to God alone: i just know i am impatient/ while God seemingly tarries: becasue He knows many “chaff” will become “wheat”.
..
okay thanks for time, sorry for horrible writing.
xo.eternal
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hey all, just watched that video it was very interesting. just to say Ive done a little bit of research on comparative religion. With the implementation of the first Islamic state in Madinah, it proved to be a positive thing. with the growth of the Islamic nation, overnight a barbaric people were changed into what we would call civilized.
The growth of Islam may be a good thing for Europe and America which has high rates of crime, and increasingly secular views.
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Sorry, Mr Headless, but I do take great offence at your outburst. I didn’t realise this blog was a legitimate place for accusations of Stalinist or otherwise genocidal outlook. It’s hard for me not to take your comments as some kind of character assassination.
I would never condone any of those things you suggest, and certainly don’t think there is any simple to the problem of over-population. I am only drawing attention to the fact that, in a world with finite resources available, we cannot expect infinite, or even indefinite population growth to be sustainable. It’s just simple logic. Maybe I should have added “in the long-term” to clarify what I thought would have been fairly obvious.
Saying that the US population needs to be less in the long-term (ie decades) than it currently is, in order for any human population to viable, secure and healthy long-term is not the same as suggesting that it should be forcibly reduced by any means now.
Apparently, there is a strong correlation between offering a higher and more universal standard of education to women, and greater genuine freedom of choice regarding family planning to women, and a reduction in birth rates. I wonder how high those issues are on the agendas of our religious spokespeople, Protestant, Catholic, Muslim or otherwise.
Oh, and thanks for confirming the stereotype I’ve been trying to shake of North American Christians as being those who would ride rough-shod over the earth we’ve been given to care for in the name of progress. And I guess Global Warming is a conspiritorial myth of the left-wing too…
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Oh, I remember seeing this. Like ScottL, I thought it was pretty biased and only from a Western perspective. The creator has never been to Nigeria, which is 50% Muslim, and the Christian population is far from being swallowed by the Muslim population. He’s not counting the non-European populations around the world of which many Christians are a part.
But I am also no fan of just having more children so that more Christians would be on earth.
After a while, this sounded like the adults on the Charlie Brown show. Christianity does not revolve around the West. This is not 1861, Mr. Video Man. And he’s obviously not heard of the cultural phenomenon of former colonized people going back to the countries that colonized them. I can’t remember the term right now, but that’s one reason why Europe has a huge Middle Eastern and African population.
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Lots of fear, exaggeration, likely innocent misdirection and even some wild moral equivalence (Taliban ~= “Good Christian Soldiers”!) on this thread. The demographic numbers here are suspect , but even if they are accurate it’s only part of the story. Assimilation and moderation versus extremism in the Islamic community is exceptionally hard to measure and prone to bias, no doubt. I wouldn’t even know how to go about objectively measuring it. The proper approach to Islam as a believing Christian is another interesting topic. Not that I have any good insight on this, but certainly it’s worth a thread of it’s own.
However there is one piece of the story that’s basically Western and does interest me as a Christian and in general. That is the lack of confidence of the West in itself and the recasting of children and fertility and human life generally as some Malthusian/eco-horror.
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil. Children are gifts and blessings and human life is precious. Where is your faith? Be fruitful and multiply. God provides for the birds, how much more so for you and I who are worth so much more than swallows? Any demographic failure in Europe or here for that matter is in part due to selfishness and in part to a lack of faith in God’s providence.
Birth control in a Christian context would also make a fascinating thread. While it’s not a typical Protestant question I’d be interested in seeing where that might go.
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“I just don’t think it is a coincedence that democracy developed and flourished under western Christian thought.”
More like western neo-greek. Democracy erupted in the enlightenment when it became more fashionable for intellectuals to cite and study Platon and crew than the Bible.
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“To achieve a sustainable economy and avert disaster, the United States must reduce its population by at least one-third, and world population will have to be reduced by two-thirds, says the study.â€
And just how is this “reducing world population by two-thirds” to be done to Save the Planet (TM)?
Environmentally-friendly Zyklon B?
A Carbon-Neutral alternative to Krema Ovens?
And who of Gaia’s Faithful get to be Dr Mengele making the Selections?
Or maybe take the Stalin approach instead, with engineered famine (“We didn’t kill anybody — starvation did! Just as was prophesied in The Population Bomb!”)
THAT’S what “reducing population” implies. Especially a crash program of Reducing Population (TM) now that Global Warming (TM) Is Upon Us(!!!)
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The irony is that under Islam the culture warriors could keep the uppity feminists in their place, outlaw abortion, kill gays, and insist on a literal reading of creation. So what’s the problem? — AT Chaffee
More than that, AT. Under the Taliban:
* Everybody constantly Studied and Memorized and Quoted and Recited SCRIPTURE (the Koran)…
* Everybody constantly Praised God every time they opened their mouths (“AL’LAH’U AKBAR! AL’LAH’U AKBAR! AL’LAH’U AKBAR!”)…
* Everyone lived by God’s Law (Shari’a), not Man’s…
* All women dressed modestly (the Burqa) and saved themselves for marriage (honor killings)…
The only thing I see Christian Culture Warriors objecting to is WHOSE book was SCRIPTURE (TM); other than that… 🙂
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Sam Urfer wrote: “European and American society seem to be in a hurry to self-destruct through a narcissistic slackness of procreation. It’s not so much a matter of us needing to have children to boost our “team†versus the Muslim “teamâ€, as that human society cannot function when everybody is limiting their number of children. Why are we dooming ourselves?”
Sam – I’m not so sure having more babies is the solution to anything, for anyone. Here’s a quote to throw into the mix…
“In a study titled Food, Land, Population and the U.S. Economy, David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at Cornell University, and Mario Giampietro, senior researcher at the US National Research Institute on Food and Nutrition (INRAN), estimate the maximum U.S. population for a sustainable economy at 200 million. To achieve a sustainable economy and avert disaster, the United States must reduce its population by at least one-third, and world population will have to be reduced by two-thirds, says the study.”
Why are we dooming ourselves by over-populating a planet which we seem hellbent on destroying in the name of progress?
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Exactly, ATChaffee… I keep seeing this video on hardcore dominionist blogs.
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The irony is that under Islam the culture warriors could keep the uppity feminists in their place, outlaw abortion, kill gays, and insist on a literal reading of creation. So what’s the problem?
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First, it was the Catholics. Then it was gays and lesbians. Now it’s Muslims. Who’s next, I wonder?
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Here is the rest of the sentence which I was in the middle of typing when I somehow accidentally hit the “submit” button: I think most Christians are uncomfortable with big, bad, bodacious expressions of faith which scream “HEY!!! LOOK AT ME if you want to know what God is like!!!”
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Hello, hope I’m not too late to get in on the discussion here.
I think another issue in the decline of evangelism is something which you touched on in an earlier post somewhere along the line, where you said that most Christians nowadays have a more humble view of their faith and are very uncomfortable with big, bad, bodacious expressions of faith which scream “HEY!!! LOOK AT ME
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A wonderful post, Michael, and thanks for your insightful, thought-provoking response. We should be less afraid of the Muslim “hoardes” and more afraid of our increasingly shallow version of Christianity.
However, I think perhaps that those folks most afraid of the so-called culture clash revealed in the video, are also those least likely to see and fight for the obvious solution: education and emancipation of women world-wide, especially Muslim women. If our culture would represent a serious insistence for treating women with the same respect and dignity that Jesus did will transform this discussion, and reveal the true evil: mysogony.
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“in which Muslim dominated country would the average American feel comfortable living?â€
Uh, I’d recommend Turkey or Indonesia, maybe Egypt (if it’s not too poor for the average American to withstand).
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Love the pic of Jimmy Page!
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Further, the unstated, but blatantly assumed premise that Muslims will revoke constitutions and destroy the rights of non-Muslims in countries where they dominate is less than certain.
Turkey is the only exception to the rule that Muslim-dominated countries have some form of Islamic law, and Ataturk’s project is neither particularly old, nor, it seems, necessarily guaranteed to last as a secular state for much longer.
I’ve noticed in that most of the links you’ve provided about Islam and democracy, the word “liberal” is strikingly absent. An Islamic republic can be both democratic and constitutional without enjoying the freedoms we take for granted in the West.
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“in which Muslim dominated country would the average American feel comfortable living?”
I think it is exactly this desire for “comfortable living” that is killing vibrant christianity in the West. It is this that causes us to sell out to consumerism/materialism, happily anaesthetised to what this poisonous brew is doing to us.
This “scary” video is designed to make us cling to our comfort all the tighter, it does not encourage faith in what God is up to.
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“I am a European living in a Middle Eastern Islamic state. I am very happy to be raising my kids here, but would be terrified if I had to “risk their futures†by moving to America. I would far rather they grow up here than experience the consumerist Evangelical church culture I read about on the internet.”
Ouch, just ouch. Interesting (or not) how easily we see the flaws/drawbacks of other cultures but fail to see our own.
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I grant the point in most cases where the culture/history is non-democratic. I don’t grant it in the case of Europe, Canada, etc. The Coexist data indicates that most Muslims in the west value western institutions.
It’s all largely irrelevant to Christians anyway. Are commanded to fight a culture war for the side that grants us more tolerance, even as it grants ungodliness in general just as much tolerance?
ms
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I’m with desiderius on this. Of course we should befriend Muslims here in our North American suburbs and of course we should take the gospel into those difficult Muslim fields. But Michael, you did not answer desiderius’ question: which Muslim country does not substantially truncate the rights of non-Muslims? Put another way, aside from ideals of Christian mission, or living in an oil company compound, in which Muslim dominated country would the average American feel comfortable living? You might try Turkey, but this is exactly the point: Turkey is the most secular of Muslim countries and therefore the most inviting. Still, Turkey has the potential to blow sky high with a takeover by radical Muslims.
DSY
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Goodness gracious. Was this put together by a conspiracy theorist, end-times focused group?
I don’t doubt that there has been a significant increase in the Muslim population in some European nations, specifically France and the UK being two of the bigger ones that I am aware of. But the video focuses mainly on the demographics of the western, white world. What of the rest of the world? I suppose the group is made of of upper middle-class, white westerners (and probably from America).
My understanding is that 15-20,000 come to Christ each day in India. These same estimates stand true for Africa. At a ministry college I used to work at in the UK, Rheinhard Bonke shared some of the powerful things he has seen happen right across Africa. Some quite amazing things. Africa went from be 4% professing Christians in 1900 to 40% professing Christians in 1990. China has seen the biggest explosion of the kingdom in 20,000+ coming to Christ on an average per day. The church in China has now reached well over 100 million, and this in a country where there are very restrictive rules on the practice of our faith. Explosions of this magnitude continue right across South America, especially in places like Argentina. Not to mention the slow snowball gaining momentum in eastern European nations of the former Soviet state. The seed of the kingdom is slowly but steadily growing since freedom in the early 1990’s. In all, there are possibly 80-100,000 people born again each day on the planet. That means some 30 million come to Christ each year! Absolutely astounding!! There are now probably well over 1 billion Christians in the earth today, and possibly closer to 2 billion, which is about a quarter of the world’s current population. I’m not trying to go all postmillenial, but God is doing quite ok in expanding His kingdom in the earth as the waters cover the sea.
No doubt such expanding numbers aren’t quite as big a reality in North America and Europe, but God is at work drawing people to Himself. But there are seasons and times. Perhaps it is the time and season for Latin America, the Asiatics and Africa.
I think the video was more about showing the evils of Islam rather than encouraging the gospel to be proclaimed. The video seems more to provoke action our of fear rather than empowering people with the reality of the resurrection life we proclaim. Not helpful or healthy from my perspective.
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One more thing: before we blame Islam for the dearth of democracies in Muslim countries, recall that Western imperialism (including the U.S. variety) has suppressed–and in some cases continues to suppress–democratic or constitutional movements in various Middle Eastern countries. It seems that Christian leaders prefer to prop up autocrats or military juntas, rather than see populisms erupt that might turn against Western interests.
I hope everyone is reading http://www.juancole.com
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desiderius: The reason I said less than certain is that the assumption in the video is that Muslims will reject constitutional democracies, etc and replace the with worst case scenarios.
I’d say that this data seriously questions that assumption:
The Coexist Poll:
http://www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/118249/Gallup-Coexist-Index-2009.aspx
Muslims and Democracy:
http://www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/109489/Islam-Democracy.aspx
Ironically, on many culture war issues, Muslims are significantly more conservative than Christians in the west.
http://boarsheadtavern.com/2009/05/08/6939/
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Further, the unstated, but blatantly assumed premise that Muslims will revoke constitutions and destroy the rights of non-Muslims in countries where they dominate is less than certain.
Please name the Muslim-dominated countries where the rights of non-Muslims, especially Christians, have not been destroyed or at least substantially truncated.
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Lance Atanasius, I am not intending to suggest that a Musim majority is to be desired. I was trying to interact with the fear expressed about raising children in a country where the percentage of muslims is increasing. I would not want sharia law in America, but neither do I want the Christian “Focus on the Family” version. However, there are many reasons to fear raising your children in the present USA, which may be less obvious to those currently submerged in the culture.
Tod Erickson: “What if our culture, as American Christians, is literally poisoning us?” That is exactly what I’m trying to get at. I am not convinced that Islamic culture is any more toxic.
“Sincere Christianity”, as opposed to “sincere Islam”, is not a state-builder, and christianity tends to be healthiest when christians are in the minority.
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Joseph,
Jimmy’s not playing ‘Stairway to Heaven’ with the double-neck guitar; it’s ‘Dazed and Confused’ a slight variation on Page’s ‘I’m Confused’ with the Yardbirds.
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They so is, Martha.
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Headless Unicorn Guy’s post about the Wahhabi is very timely, and one part strikes me as ironic:
“The Wahabi (and their extreme fringe of the Taliban and al-Qaeda) have reacted by trying to force the rest of reality into what they want it to be — the utopian dream of a Perpetual Year One of the Hegira.”
That’s *their* version of the Culture Wars right there, lads. The Taliban are the most extreme case, but they’re just doing what the Good Christian Soldiers in the video are trying to do: impose a particular culture according to an idealised version of the past, with heavily-revised-going-back-to-the-original-primitive-pure doctrine religious elements.
We have met the enemy, and they is us.
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Imonk-
Consistently I read your writing and find myself more excited and hopeful than I have felt about Christianity since I was a teen and left the faith. I pray you keep asking the questions you are asking, and am grateful beyond words that you share the results of your thinking on what it means to truly life a Christ Shaped life.
Sarah
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I used to have discussions with a muslim man who was living in my neighborhood with his son. He was a professor from Pakistan. He said we had “too much freedom” in America. He liked freedom, but wanted more limits on it.
As far as the comments about evangelism and the church: Nothing has changed. Everyone commenting in here acts as if things are different now than in the 1st century or the 12th century. There is always an ebb and flow. We are in a spiritual battle. The enemy adjusts his strategies as we advance. The point is to keep advancing. Set the captives free.
There is always this desire for folks who call themselves Christians to criticize Christians and the Church. Hypocrites in the Church? Do Tell! Preach the Gospel. In season and out of season. Our real battle is the purity of the Gospel itself. Many who “profess” christianity have become so ecumenical that they say hindus, muslims, and buddhists are christians by default, and then there is the attack on “Scripture Alone” by the Emergent Church. Remember it is the Truth in Love. Some want to bang the Truth. Others want to feel the Love. Truth without Love is just noise. Love without Truth is melted butter that is now a stain on your shirt. The early church had Marcion, etc… Truth won out. Athanasius stood up against many odds and the “unifiers” of the time called him contentious for standing for the Truth. There is no perfect church, but there is a perfect Truth. Christ Jesus.
For Jenny to even hint that a majority muslim nation is to be desired is ridiculous. Pax Romana is more desirable. Muslim nations restrict speech, travel, literature, etc… All Muslim countries are oppressive. Some more than others. We don’t have a Christian culture, we have a secular culture with Judeo Christian values that are rapidly disappearing. What we want to preserve is Pax Romana so we can share the Gospel in freedom and have open discussions like this on Christian conduct and the role of the church.
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Austin’s comments bring to mind the fact that fear as a way of determining our actions and in what direction we should go, both as a country…and as individual Christians, is a overbearing master.
I’m not trying to be all Pollyanna-ish. I grant that the world is sometimes a scary place.
However…why are we letting our fears make our decisions for us? Why are we deterimining what we should do based on fear?
Where is our faith? Where is our bravery?
We give fear too much power over our lives.
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Jenny,
I’m not speaking of cultural Christianity. My family does pretty well existing for the most part out side of it as well. I’m speaking of sincere Christianity beside sincere Islam. I’ll take a culture undpinned by the former anyday. Like Lewis Grizzard used to say. They sale tickets to Muslim countries everyday if they are so great to live in.
I do not however deny the rot in our own culture.
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I think we are dual citizens. Render unto Ceaser and all.
Our Christian citizenship should and does trump our secular loyalty.
I’m not a flag waiver Imonk, I would not be offended if we took ours out of the sanctuary. I just don’t want us to get a too rosey view of Islam in our eagerness to reach out to those trapped in it.
I’m not sure I understand your question about white dominated, but I’ll give it a try after tee-ball tonight.
peace
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“Good fences make good neighbours”
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Topher,
I’ll give you Turkey, even though it’s the most secular almost of all Islamic states. Lebanon has a sizable Christian population. The rest were heavily colonized by Western countries.
I just don’t think it is a coincedence that democracy developed and flourished under western Christian thought.
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Austin,
You seem to be saying you owe your “ancestors” some kind of political loyalty.
I get the point about not despising blessings achieved and passed on, but Christ puts us in another Kingdom. I am not a citizen of America or the South first. Can’t be. Not possible.
And cultural Christianity is white dominated, yes or no?
ms
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Austin, that young family is exactly why you need to get out of that cozy christian culture fast, before it gets ’em. Honestly, a majority muslim country is going to be a whole lot healthier than one swarming with cultural christians.
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Imonk,
To suggest that we have to be open border multi-culturalist to sound like Christ and to do else is to be a pharisee is just poor reasoning and intellectually dishonest.
No where in the Bible does it say I have to surrender the political, governmental and secular priviledges and rights won and kept for me by the blood of my ancestors to be Christlike.
Some of us still have young families Imonk, I don’t look forward to the day when there might be more mosque than churhces in some large urban American areas. That is the case, or soon will be, in some parts of Europe.
You fail to distinguish b/w the Kingdom and secular governments. Orderly borders, governments, and powers are established by God for the wellbeing of man.
Just becasue we should have a heart for the lost regardless of their present political or cultural state doesn’t mean we are required or even should welcome their cultural or political state.
In fact history has a pretty good example of rapid and strong missionary movement taking place in what many would today consider bigoted, ethnocentric, and nationalistic mentalities i.e. the Victorian era.
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As someone who grew up as an MK in a country that was 97% Muslim, I say right on. It really is about who we are. Here’s one of the bits American Christiantiy is too often missing:
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death…
(Philippians 2:5 and following)
I don’t have space for all the stories, but trust me: that really is what it takes many times to evangelize in a Muslim culture.
I don’t see much of that attitude in the U.S. culture war evangelicals. Why? Because it’s hard and sacrificial and counter-cultural. Evangelizing Muslims (and, increasingly, evangelizing unbelievers in our own culture) can take years of such living and giving. Evangelicals generally don’t have the patience for that kind of incarnational witness; we’re programmed by church programs that last perhaps a couple of months at most!
Those looking in from the outside (and many of us on the inside or in the bridgeless borderlands– including me and my kids) see this, and they know enough about Christiantity to know there’s a huge disconnect betwen who we are and who our scriptures say we ought to be (yes, I know the line about how getting rid of the hypocrites would empty the churches, but what I’m really talking about here goes way beyond that to a sort of betrayal of identity). Disillusionment follows.
I sometimes wonder fleetingly if we are seeing the fulfillment of the statement that in the last days people will be “having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof” (2 Timothy Ch 3). I sure hope not. There is too much Kingdom work left to do.
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I have lots of Muslim friends. Some are nominal, some are minimal, a couple could be described as mystics. They would never treat Christians (or whatever) with anything other than respect, though converting them is just not on. You should also know that there are minority groups within Islam. (Check out the Alevi, then come back and tell me how dangerous they are!)
In the course of a Wanderjahr backpacking across Asia, I traveled through several majority-Muslim countries, and met more of a range of people. Most were just going on with their own lives, and had no interest in killing anybody or converting anybody. They saw the USA (this was during the Gulf War) as something out of their control, like their own governments, or the weather. However, many knew people who had moved there, and thought of them as extremely fortunate. Israel received a good deal more venom (and small wonder). A few people threw rocks at me. Many times that number offered me tea.
US liberals sometimes liken evangelical Christians to the Taliban. Is this fair? Both seek to dominate their respective societies, if not one another’s as well. The Christians seem to be less interested in killing those who offend them, but have been responsible for more deaths in absolute numbers–through war and so forth, though these seem to have been motivated by non-religious concerns. Good government is most likely to be enjoyed by cultural Christians and Shinto-ists, IMHO.
Later this century, I do expect Europe and the Middle East to blend together culturally. (The division between them being kind of artificial.) Of course there will be problems, but when are there not problems?
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>I’m not willing to take that risk with my children’s future
>>The best man in my wedding took his family and has lived in an Arab state for 20 years. Did he put his children at risk?
I am a European living in a Middle Eastern Islamic state. I am very happy to be raising my kids here, but would be terrified if I had to “risk their futures” by moving to America. I would far rather they grow up here than experience the consumerist Evangelical church culture I read about on the internet.
“If we really want to make a difference we should move small groups of Christians, living Christian society, into Muslim countries that are open. Just live there. I don’t think we’re willing to do that, though. I know I’m not.”
Come on over, it’s a much healthier place to be. Or at least come for the sake of your children…
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When we see both Christians and Muslims set on dominating the world, it’s enough to make me wonder 1) if organized religion in general is evil and 2) if there’s actually a God at all.
If we know them by their fruits, is the world better off with or without Islam? Is it better off with or without Christianity?
Are we claiming that when good and evil based on religion are weighed that there will be more good?
I’m not defining good as mere faith in Jesus Christ or obedience to Allah. I’m defining good as actuality in the here and now.
I would like to see a quantitative analysis – people killed by religion vs. people who have had their lives improved by religion in ways that would not have happened without religion.
I suspect one can grow closer to God and goodness without organized religion than they can by joining an organization which, by charter, says its members are going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell.
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Thanks Michael. I cannot agree more. People claim to love the gospel but refuse to be inconvenienced enough to share it.
Dan
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Wow I am being greatly encouraged by some of the comments here. My perspective is healing, you might say. Now I just want to go out and make some Muslim friends so I can tell them about Jesus.
What a novel idea!
Part of me bemoans heavily this them/us mentality that is the Great Inhibition to the Great Commission imo. How are we supposed to win to Christ those people whom we aren’t supposed to associate with?
In my fundamentalist upbringing, I remember being told not to hang out with goths/punks. I remember thinking, “How is that even remotely what Jesus would do?” If I truly cared for their souls I would spend more time with them.
Now it think that dilemma has come to the church in the Muslim community in America. Are we actively seeking to befriend these people? Would our churches be a place where a “seeking Muslim” would be welcomed? Dear God have mercy on us for our self-righteous demonization of sinners, and give us all a compassion for their perishing state.
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I would like to point out on this thread that there are, and have been Muslim democracies. Turkey, Lebanon (for a while at least), Iran, (post WWII until the Shah was put back into power) and India has one of the largest Muslim populations in the world that is an active participated part of their democracy. They have not been perfect but they do exist. And lest we get too high up on our house it was within the lifetimes of some on this thread when certain minorities were denied participation in our system of government.
I am not trying to defend the problems and crimes committed by Muslim peoples in history, but there seems to be a current on this thread that Muslim people just can’t be part of a democracy and that is just not true.
As Terry Eagleton points out in his book “Reason, Faith, and Revolution” there were scholars of Islam who could make communism and Islam work together. I am sure there are tons of Islamic scholars who find support and connections between Islam and democracy.
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See, this is why I love you.
Jesus said to love our neighbors. Looks like we need to make some cookies, because a moving truck just pulled up.
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Hmmm, when you put it as objectionably as that it’s hard to keep making excuses for the “them&us” polarisation that seems rife within the Christian community. That video is racist and vile. It’s the thick end of the wedge.
I have to stop pretending that the thin edge is harmless. It’s really not OK for Christians to see non-Christians as the enemy they need to protect themselves from.
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>…surrender my heritage bequeth to me by my forefathers
And what Biblical characters are you sounding like, brother?
Hint: They were shocked at Jesus’ lack of serious Jewishness and appreciation for pure Jewish culture. Did you see who Jesus was letting into the Kingdom?
When I am defending the heritage of my forefathers I better do a quick check on the “Where is my Kingdom loyalty?”
peace
ms
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Is that a picture of Jimmy Page playing “Stairway to Heaven?”
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Gotta swim upstream on this one, iMonk. I haven’t seen the video, but the commenters are seeing through a western lens and missing the reality re: Islam. There is NO majority-Muslim country where Christians are not persecuted. During the Balkan wars we were told how modern and “moderate” the Bosniaks and Kosovars are, and now their women are in hijab and their churches in flames. So much for moderation when confronted by modernity. Of course not every Muslim is practicing this, but the ones that aren’t are actually the worse Muslims. Fact, not “bigotry”. More and more Muslims are seeing this, thanks to the Internet and Father Botros, but Islam itself remains committed to domination, and is therefore qualitatively different from Judaism, Sikhism, etc.
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Monk,
I know this was not the main point of your post, but thanks for the Jimmy Page pic. Love Zep.
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The older I get and the more I reflect on the teaching of Christ the more I realize that evangelicals and even some “missional” churches have often put the redeeming culture cart before the horse of loving one’s neighbor. Loving your neighbor doesn’t require that you compromise your convictions as a Christian, but your convictions as a Christian should spur you to love your neighbor.
And the part I wonde about now is this, do the makers of this sort of video want evangelism and babies to happen out of love for neighbor? It comes off more like “we need to outbreed the bad guys”. Whatever happend to “we wrestle not against flesh and blood?” I am amazed at how often Christians neuter the real, scary implications of the parable of the good Samaritan– loving your neighbor also means you don’t get to choose who your neighbor is or isn’t. Loving your neighbor is what you’re commanded to do even if you don’t manage to convert your neighbor.
Perhaps even if evangelism were pursued it might come up empty because the culture war is so prominent a feature in evangelicalism people who aren’t Christians assume the real reason to convert someone is to get them to sign up for the cultural program.
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Oh, I am so tired of this huffing and puffing about the coming Muslim demographic nightmare.
Firstly, will it ever happen? I doubt it, somehow.
Secondly, so (self-identified) Muslims may come to outnumber (self-identified) Christians on census returns – so what?
My point there is that if you’re comparing numbers, then compare meaningful numbers. What proportion of the total population of a given nation will be Muslim (not just how big is the Muslim population vis-a-vis the Christian population)? The recent Pew and other surveys on Christianity in America should be instructive for you here; there’s a growing number of “No affiliation listed” or “Nones”, and I have no reason to doubt that Europe will be different. If you’re flapping about sharia law will be the law of the land!, then the numbers would have to be something like over 50% of the population is (a) Muslim (b) committed enough to want sharia law (c) not corrupted by liberal Westernism like the Christians, shock horror! (d) that matters had come to the point of a referendum on such a sweeping change to the legal system. Come back to me when we’re talking about hundreds of millions of fundamentalist conservative Muslims streaming through the ports and across the borders of Europe on a daily basis and I’ll panic then.
Thirdly, I’ve heard all this before. Whipping up hysteria in Northern Ireland by claiming that Catholics were “breeding like rabbits” and were going to out-number Protestants and force a Roman Catholic theocracy in a re-united 32-county Gaelic Reublic upon the loyal subjects of the Crown. “A Protestant government for a Protestant people” is just as unpalatable when it’s turned against Muslims as against Papists.
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Amen to this post. It was painful to read because I confess that I am guilty. Guilty guilty guilty guilty. I simply do not love my next door neighbor enough to really attempt to snatch him from the fires of hell.
I agree that we demonize our enemies instead of loving them into the kingdom. I believe the culture war is a big part behind all of that.
However, I have to agree with austin up above.
Imonk, when you said:
Further, the unstated, but blatantly assumed premise that Muslims will revoke constitutions and destroy the rights of non-Muslims in countries where they dominate is less than certain.
I must ask what reality this comes from. All over Europe Muslims are aggressively trying to legislate sharia law and they are succeeding. Even in Canada they have managed to legislate sharia anti-blasphemy laws: It is illegal to say anything negative about Islam in Canada.
Muslims are interested in theocracy. History proves that is dangerous in the hands of Christians even. Not all Muslims have that as their goal, but I have no idea how many. I am hopeful that some of the more liberal Muslim scholars will attain a more prominent voice in their faith, especially the wonderful Sufi Muslims in America. But simply from reading the book, it will take some pretty liberal hermeneutics to interpret peacefully large portions of their holy tomes.
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I evangelized during my college days, it was a totally terrifying experience, going up to strangers and trying to talk about Jesus; I’m the kind of person who won’t speak to a stranger unless I absolutely need to, like asking directions etc.
Nothing terrible happened, no one insulted me or screamed at me, but still. I was a student leader and it was expected of me to evangelize, so I did, but I was always relieved when it was done and over with.
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The “Trailer Park” part of your post parallels my experience in full-time missions. The biggest shock I have received is the amount of practicing evangelical Christians (mostly SBCers) that have a huge problem with me being a long-term missionary in Western Europe. I have had Christians seriously and repeatedly ask me when I’m going to “get this out of my system”, return to the States and become a “normal Christian”, serving somewhere in the U.S. My own Christian parents would rather I do anything else, preferably something that was socially popular and made me wealthy. All this after years in church, being told The Great Commission and listening to missionaries in church? Why were my non-Christian co-workers less shocked (and more supportive, sometimes even financially) at my decision?
On the Muslim issue, I’m glad I had Muslim neighbors in my hometown. They were some of the nicest, most hospitable people on my block. We can’t let fear get in the way of our interactions with everyone.
And to Todd Erickson’s comment, “What if our culture, as American Christians, is literally poisoning us?” the answer is “yes”. Try living outside of the US for a few years, and you’ll see it, crystal clear.
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What if AA told the drunks, “You’re a bit of a wreck right now. Come back once you get yourself sober.â€
If that is not how evangelicals feel, I think that is how it is often understood. “Become like us and then we will accept you.â€
I’m reading Andrew Martin’s book and one quote seems relevant: “Christians don’t create culture by critiquing culture, but by creating culture.â€
Very infrequently a new product comes on the market that is so useful that I can’t wait to tell everybody. There is never any difficulty telling people about something you love.
I have no trouble telling people what Christ has meant to my life. But then, the tough part. Why should I suggest they visit a church where they are likely to be ignored or find rejection? What do big chunks of Christian culture actually offer?
Jesus said to love one another as he loves us. I think the heart of the problem is that too many Christians don’t really understand the love of Jesus, so don’t really know how to love one another.
I think that Christianity needs to stop fixating on culture and look inward. It’s time for Christianity to fall in love with Jesus all over again. Get to know Jesus and you get to know his love for us. When we know this loving relationship, then we see how to love one another.
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Michael,
What a great piece, you put into words and perspective many things I have noticed in my little community. I am at work and the video is blocked, so can’t comment on it. But,yeah what you said about trailer park people and Churches wanting to grow by children and family association, that’s it exactly down in my neck of the woods.
I work in a poor state for a poor state agency in a poor region of the state. I see the lack of basic sanitation everyday (clean water, sewage disposal,etc.) I see people struggling to get to a menial job in a broken down clunker, wondering who will watch the children. What I don’t see is us; Churches, or just people; helping one another. We mourn in private, we celebrate in private, we struggle with every day concerns in private.
I have met two young Muslim black men over the past several years up the road from where I live. We have talked, while picking up trash, and doing some menial repairs in a broken-down neighborhood (my great aunt lived here many years ago, when it was still a “good white neighborhood”). I’m white late 40’s, a wanna be Jesus-follower; to say we had little in common makes me smile even now. But, you know as we sweated and talked and worked we recognized each us wanted to see this broken neighborhood heal, we found some common spark of brotherhood. I won’t ever become Muslim and I have doubts of them becoming Christians, but they are not so hostile to whites or Christians. Nor, am I so hostile to young black men, or Muslims.
Somewhere along the way in this country our Church people forgot how to live and interact in the world around them. You describe that well, thanks for letting me give a long-winded, “amen”.
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I just re-read my earlier comment, and I don’t want to leave the impression that I just blurted out to this guy that he was going to Hell. But, when I explained the fundamentals of Christianity to Him. That we are all dead in our sins. No one can be save by doing good works. That people can only be saved because Christ died for our sins; we ourselves do nothing to be saved. But we cannot reject that great gift of God and expect to be saved. Well, he is an intelligent man. He figured it out. He said, “then I must be going to Hell”. I said, “that’s not up to me.”, but he got the idea. I told him that I wasn’t telling him this becase I don’t like him, but I was telling him this because I DO like him and I don’t want to see any harm come to him, and I don’t think he was offended. But it is comparitively easy to suggest that I deny myself, take up my cross and follow Jesus. But to suggest that to my Muslim friend is to require some pretty serious self-denying. Good thing I believe that it will be the Holy Spirit, and not I, who melts his heart.
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One of the drawbacks of living in a pluralistic, but largely Christian culture (which is what we had in the USA for a long time) was we developed a common feeling that it was bad manners to suggest that someone else’s religion was wrong (to his face, I mean). In Wisconsin, where I live, there used to be little towns up north that had one Catholic church and one Lutheran Church, and neither group talked to the other. Each could talk about why the other was wrong among themselves, but the idea of going to someone on the other side and suggesting that they were wrong and should change? That would have been terribly rude. And this was so in large, more diverse communities as well. I think the idea was partly that we would all get to heaven in the end, so even though somebody HAD to be wrong on some doctrinal issues, it was better not to offend anybody in the here and now.
I think this attitude left the church at a disadvantage when dealing with non-Christians. I used to attend a church in a suburb with a large Jewish population. There was no outreach to Jews. None. I think the consensus was that 1) it wouldn’t do any good, and 2) it would only offend them. I mean, telling someone to return to the faith of our fathers was one thing, but trying to convert a total unbeliever? Plus, there is a big cultural attitude that criticizing a persons religion is basicly saying you hate them. Just look at the video. You are right about the racist tinge to it. But I have a Muslim working in my office. And one of the the first things I had to tell him about Christianity was that he was on the road to Hell (if only Christ can save us, it was pretty obvious). It was hard to find a way to do this politely. But I am sure that it is clear to him that I don’t just mean him. His parents, wife and children, uncles, cousins, everybody he cares about most, all going to Hell if they don’t rely on the fact that Christ died for their sins. And all his recently passed away relatives (grandparents, etc.)…well, they’re in Hell already. When you juxtipose this fundamental fact of our faith with the open hostility of the culture warriors, it isn’t easy to distinguish us (who love the unbeliever) from them (who hate the unbelievers and want them to go away).
I hope I have shown the love of Christ to my co-worker, but I’m sure there is always room for improvement. If anyone out there has any suggestions on how to share Christ with people who other “Christians” are treating as the enemy, I’m all ears.
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Thanks, Michael, for this post. It is really thought-provoking. And I agree with you about the video. When the narrator said “immigration, ISLAMIC immigration”, the tone told the story. And I do wonder about how freedoms would fare. I guess we have no model to look at–all the nations who transitioned into Islamic republics (or whatever) weren’t free to start with (Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc).
But the beauty of your post is the trailer park story. God, deliver me from this kind of prejudice and lack of love! May I first be willing to embrace all people myself, then attempt to lead my church to do the same. Amen.
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You’re right, I don’t see a mandate from the Bible or God to fight a ‘culture war’
History has shown that as religion gains power in government and culture, it is forced to marginalize.
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“Our decline is because of who we want to be and how we want things to operate. We want the culture to adjust to us. We want our families to be saved. We don’t want to cross any barriers and we don’t want to have do something we decided the pastor is paid to do.â€
Yep. It is easier and safer to stay inside the bubble of, “be nice to people, do charity works on the one hand, and fight the culture war on the other” .
And let me add: Most of us do little to share Jesus because we are unsure of our own ability to share our faith in a natural engaging way. Many of us think evangelizing means we have to have all the answers and that we have to “save” people, and that we must always be shiny happy super-humans.
Rebecca Pippert is one of several very good authors/teachers helping folks get out of the bubble – err,
Salt Shaker- and into the world.
Thanks for a great post IM, and lotta great comments from all.
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I am intensely interested to see if the large number of Muslims in the US becomes a group like the Christian religious right. That’s certainly the implication of the video.
I can see why people would be worried about that possibility. James Dobson and friends have led millions of voters to the polls for years, and these politicized Muslims could be their first significant organized opposition.
“I can’t think of a single word that Jesus ever said that hinted at a goal of “cultural domination.—
And yet that is the goal of so many Christians… I’m much more worried about any conflict caused by our Christian brothers and sisters who do aim for cultural dominance than the Muslim majority we may one day have.
I would rather see Muslims take over than Christians stir up trouble in the name of some cultural Christ.
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Some of my best friends, Christians who send their children to a private Christian school, freak out a little bit when they hear that my child goes to school and is friends with other children who are openly Islamic.
Because it’s easy to say they’re going to Hell because they haven’t accepted Christ when “they” is abstract.
It’s a lot harder when “they” are 12 year old girls just like our 12 year old girls.
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I have never bought into the so-called culture war mentality, but even if folks do, shouldn’t they be praying for those whom they see as off base or as enemies rather than going into an attack mode or circling the wagons? Why not pray for and seek opportunities to become friends with people, build relationships, and move toward conversing about following Jesus? That seems a lot more productive–why it even seems “evangelistic” to me.
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Strider-
An interesting note about the word “Jihad”. It basically means overcoming an evil, which is why, to an American, it provides justification for bombing people.
However, to a Muslim, it could be something like quitting smoking, or overcoming an obstacle in life. It’s considered a great honor to complete a Jihad.
Its things like this that make our cultures seem like they are at great odds with eachother. If we really gave some thought into understanding eachother I think things would be a lot better. But then again, we will always have nutbags on every side.
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I’ve never understood why we feel the need to have the rest of the world conform to our beliefs. I’m an Atheist, and we are just as guilty of this as anyone else.
I really couldn’t care less what the rest of the world believes as long as no one tries to force their beliefs on me, or anyone else. That is something I will fight very hard.
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“Further, the unstated, but blatantly assumed premise that Muslims will revoke constitutions and destroy the rights of non-Muslims in countries where they dominate is less than certainâ€
1. History as far as I know shows very few if any examples of democratic muslim societies developing by themselves, i.e. Western democrocies, that have not been either colonies of Christian cultures heavily influenced by them
2. I’m not willing to take that risk with my children’s future — Austin
My sister-in-law grew up Assyrian Christian in a Muslim country (Mosul, Nineveh Province, Iraq). She has nothing good to say about Islam; apparently when Muslims are on top, they throw their weight around — HARD. With the Utter Certainty that they are Doing God’s Will.
And Saudi oil money bankrolls the dominance of one of the most extreme forms of Islam — Wahabi, from the Empty Quarter, the Islamic version of can-you-top-this hyper-Calvinism. They’ve been whitewashing the mosques wherever they dominate like Calvin whitewashed the churches of Geneva, in every sense of the word.
It is far more likely that the Muslim populations in Western countries will enjoy democracy and the freedom they have in Europe and North America. It is quite possible that these “Muslims†will change and alter their beliefs as most cultures do when in prolonged contact with other cultures. — Terri
Multicultural Diversity (TM) lasts only until the most dynamic culture absorbs the others (“AMERICA! WHISKY! SEXY!”) or the most aggressive culture destroys the others (“AL’LAH’U AKBAR!”). And while the Jihadis infiltrate to conquer, our more dynamic culture is infiltrating them. If there is any hope for Islam (in what I am certain future historians will call The Islamic Wars), it’ll come from American Muslims, immersed in what until now has been one of history’s most dynamic cultures. If anybody can reconcile the history of Islam with the conditions of the 21st Century and beyond, it’ll be American Muslims.
Islam is suffering from future shock piled upon the curse of runaway early success. The Wahabi (and their extreme fringe of the Taliban and al-Qaeda) have reacted by trying to force the rest of reality into what they want it to be — the utopian dream of a Perpetual Year One of the Hegira. This can only work in isolation from other cultures (like ours); it’s no coincidence that this brand of Muslim goes all-out to withdraw into all-Muslim cultural enclaves with minimal contact with the Infidels outside. Europe has isolated their Muslims in ghettos which assists this process (and can be used as bases for Jihad); Americans don’t.
The early church (100-300AD) turned people away because they didn’t think they were serious enough, and taught people how to live a Christian life before baptizing them and teaching them doctrine. And the church was massively persecuted at the same time.
And yet that was when the church grew the fastest, because we actually trained people how to be Christians.
Somehow that fits into this. But I’m not sure how. — Jonathan Hunnicutt
I suspect the Gospel back then also had more to it than (1) Young Earth Creationism Uber Alles, (2) Pin-the-Tail-on-The-Antichrist, and (3) God Hates Fags. What sort of appeal would such a narrow, shrunken Gospel have to early-Imperial Romans or contemporary Americans?
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My question for Michael (for whom my reverence knows no bounds) is what about now resigned Bishop Michael Nazir Ali and other Europeans who see the influx of radicalized Islamic immigrants and a secular malaise as being very dangerous to a free society?
My second question is more of a comment. I get the feeling that Michael (and others of like mind) are creating an either/or proposition. Either we are faithful to Christ, or we wage the culture war. But why can we not do both? Is it not possible to say that we are Christians first and Americans (or Canadians or Italians or whatever) second, but that declining birth rates and an influx of immigrants with values hostile to democracy might – just might – be a potentially volatile situation? No, it’s not the Gospel, but if we are to use that rubric, then the fundamentalists of the 1940s had the better idea. If Christians can’t speak sense about these matters, then no one else can.
Instead of carrying about the generic culture war, let’s start naming names and institutions, because for every Michael Savage or Rod Parsley, there is a Richard Land or Richard John Neuhaus or Michael Nazir-Ali, and we do ourselves no favors when we lump them all in together.
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Yea, the video is bad. I would like to point out that had the CIA not supported assassinations, coup d’etats, etc. throughout the Muslim world (Iran, Egypt, Indonesia) these countries would perhaps be democracies. Our continued support of dictatorships in the Muslim world, (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Jordan, and Saddam Hussein before the 1990’s) doesn’t give the democratic West much credibility on the supporting and spreading democracy front.
A lot of the reason these countries are so closed can be, at least partially, tided to the fact that it is in the West’s best oil interest to maintain a stable tyranny in these countries.
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I do not understand why you have “to bring” the trailer park people to your church. You were being the church to them and showing them how they can see and find Christ. That is awesome.
Instead of having the “building” to come to, why not take the followers of Christ to them. Have the gathering of believers be in the trailer park, and build relationships with them.
The Lord will use someone living in that trailer park to help facilitate the group and oversee the gathering. Another one with the gift of teaching can help lead discussion. As they gather there in the unity of Christ, His Church grows.
I left the institutional church about a year ago because after 10 years in the church, I know how the trailer park people felt, I do not blame them for leaving. Break down the walls…get out of the pews. Let us break the status quo, consumerism vision many churches have.
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That video gives the illusion that all Muslims are devout fanatics dedicated to spreading and espousing their religion endlessly…
In truth most Muslims are like most Christians; they just go to their mosque every Friday or so and hardly think about Allah anymore than the average “Christian” thinks of Jesus. I think the distinction needs to be made between Islam as a religion and Islam as a culture, kind of like the difference between Christianity and Christian culture.
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Imonk,
I can’t get the video to load, so I can’t comment on that, but I take your word for it.
peace
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Imonk,
yes he did,
is some risk worth taking, it depends on your work, if one feels the call to missionary service then yes, but I’m not willing to open the borders and surrender my heritage bequeth to me by my forefathers to Islam
If that makes me bigoted so be it. I think it just makes me wise.
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How accurate do you feel are the eurostat figures?
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If we really want to make a difference we should move small groups of Christians, living Christian society, into Muslim countries that are open. Just live there. I don’t think we’re willing to do that, though. I know I’m not.
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I’m guessing the lack of true persecution, other than having our feelings hurt, has hindered the Church in America. We are nothing like the ever-growing Church in China, where the hunted underground house-church movement is massive and growing. Amazingly they survive without depending on youth groups or mall-like church buildings. It is doubtful there are disagreements on worship styles. Yet they grow. They grow despite the governmental opposition to their actions. It’s almost as if they actually believe Matthew 28:19.
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Sorry for this long comment but this video and a few others like it going around right now gets my goat. Europe is reaping what it sowed. For 500 years most of those nations brutally dominated and exploited the peoples that are now coming ‘home’. England is competely overrun by Pakistanis and Indians. Quite frankly they deserve it. They grew rich off the backs of the slave labor of the Raj and the utterly immoral East India Company. There is a law about reaping and sowing.
But what the video does not show is the whole story. Many Muslims are on Jihad- not just terrorist but the true Jihad of trying to propagate Islam everywhere by any means. Most Muslims are NOT. Most Muslims in Europe and the US are open in unprecedented ways. So, yes this should be a wake up call, but not to our own demise. It should be a wake up call to the greatest opportunity we have had to reach the Muslim world since it’s inception. Muslims are coming to faith in Jesus in numbers not thought possible just a few years ago. Yes, the Netherlands is full of Muslims but there are dozens of Churches there today made up entirely of former Muslims. There are 250,000 Iranians in the Los Angeles area. They are completely secular having fled Iran after the fall of the Shah. Who is doing what to reach them? They are not fanatics- they are fed up with Islam. Every time a suicide bomber blows up another 100 Muslims are ready to walk on out on their faith. Who is offering them an alternative? Yes, it is time to wake up to reality, but we should not fear Islam. We should fear God alone, and fear Him we should if we miss this huge opportunity that He is giving us today. You are right Monk, who are we is the question to ask. Children of the King? I pray it will be so.
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I think that you are bang on Mike. I have been having a conversation around this video this week with some friends in ministry and the rhetoric in this video scares me. If we follow this belief of culture christianity to its end we will soon be taking up arms against people because they are threatening our way of life as christians.
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That video is a mixed bag. On the one hand, it does have cartoonish views of Muslims. But on the other hand, European and American society seem to be in a hurry to self-destruct through a narcissistic slackness of procreation. It’s not so much a matter of us needing to have children to boost our “team” versus the Muslim “team”, as that human society cannot function when everybody is limiting their number of children. Why are we dooming ourselves?
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I almost forgot: On demographics, which the video so studiously focuses on, the short-term picture is quite bleak. But Meic Pearse, as I always aver, has the best word out there. In his “Why the Rest Hates the West” Pearse points out what the video does, but also makes clear that the emergence of traditional societies in rebellion to modernism’s onslaught, may actually present a positive outcome in terms of traditional morality. They do have more children. Modernists, and their not quite so legitimate children, the post-modernists, don’t. They want to have fun (and kids get in the way of that). They want to buy stuff. They (and by that I mean us) want to consume. If I really am a Christian, then I want that to die.
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What if our culture, as American Christians, is literally poisoning us?
My father in law, who is a nazarene pastor, said that when he went to haiti on a missions trip, and they were helping these folks living in metal shacks with dirt floors, that they actually got ministered to far more…the folks there in Haiti pity us, because we’re so trapped in our culture, and we don’t know how to let go.
I have become supremely impressed by the literary works of Shane Claiborne, who is held up as a champion of the Emerging movement, but who I suspect could care less about aging hippies in contemporary non denom churches who want to feel good about themselves, and more a part of how the church is not part of the suffering world, is not a source of goodness, or beauty, or charity in the world…
or as Brennan Manning said, they do not love the world as Jesus loved the world, because they do not truly Love Jesus. They just think that they do.
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Well, I just watched the video. All I can is: “Be afraid, be very afraid!!! Now please buy this product that will ensure your safety (and our profit). The sad thing is, I’m sure I’ll be getting this link through an email forward from very good friends who buy into the whole culture war mentality. The video betrays a Manichean worldview that posits an us/them mentality that sees “Muslims” (cue scary background music) as being unalterably the same as we think they currently are. In other words, the video presents an incredibly “static” picture. The irony of course is that the true Christian witness simply doesn’t allow for any static view. History itself agrees. As groups interact with other groups, they end up incorporating key characteristics of the group they engage with. It’s normal sociology. Islam, just like Christianity, will change as it interacts with modernity. Now, as a Christian, I do believe that the Christian is uniquely fitted to engage these tensions in a way that Islam and Judaism cannot. The combination of Christianity’s theology proper, trinitarianism, combined with the NT witness of the whole Caesar/God divide, gives Christianity a better tack to balance the always competing powers. We don’t need to traffic in fear. God, through Christ, has given us a better way.
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At least the Catholics aren’t the enemies in this. Funny how alliances change.
This sounds very similar to the predictions of “the Population Bomb” back in the 70’s. I Remember what Jacques Cousteau said back in the early 80’s about the population problem: instead of blaming the pope or someone about birth control, remember that many of the countries with the lowest birth rate are traditionally Catholic. He made the point that the best form of birth control is to educate women. To empower women, with something other than fertility. Educate women and the birth rate automatically drops.
This will only happen if we make the effort to improve education for the poor and immigrants throughout the world. But of course, no body wants to treat them that well – that would be too… Christian?
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There is so much wrong with that video I wouldn’t know where to start.
When I was in college, the big cry was “The Muslim world is closed . . . unreachable . . . pray for an open door.” So I went (undercover) as a missionary to the Muslim world.
Now they are pouring into our country. Praise God! They are coming to us, we don’t have to leave our comfortable homes.
I’ve been praying for a Muslim to move here. I can’t find one and I really, really want to. Okay, I found one 40 miles away, and recently one 17 miles away. I just came in from working on our cabin (next to our house). I’ve been praying that we could host a Muslim family, from Iraq or Iran or anywhere.
Send them my way! I love Muslims! They are some of the best friends I’ve ever had.
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…..why are we even having this “conversation”….the studies,polls and statistical analysis were corrupted when you assumed that church goers were Gods people..or that “christians” were for that matter…This explains why christiandom spends so much time and effort RESISTING/DELAYING the very things that must come to pass before the Son of God returns…
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Excellent piece.
I’ve never understood the notion that church growth happens primarily from within (i.e., believers having believers). Perhaps I’m mistaken, but isn’t that the model of growth for Old Testament Israel? Isn’t the model for the growth of New Testament Israel (i.e., the Church) to bring in those from without (from the highways and byways, as it were)?
Romans 9:25 (ESV):
As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people’,
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved’.”
I remember Chuck Colson saying (at the end of his book, Against the Night) that, no matter what happens to the culture/society around us — whether it stands or falls — we’re still called to follow Christ.
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We just had a 33 yr.old man come to church. it was his first time in a church, ever. It is not as rare as you might think. I wonder how many churches he would really have been welcome in.
Not all Arab countries are alike. Some Sharia Law is not friendly to Christians, to say the least.The Quaran Sura 4,89 They wish that you disbelieve as
they have disbelieved, then you
become equal. Do not consider
them friends, unless they mobilize
along with you in the cause of GOD.
If they turn against you, you shall
fight them, and you may kill them
when you encounter them in war.
You shall not accept them as
friends, or allies.*
There is nothing comparable in the bible. Edicts of violence were specific. There are many more examples just like this in the Quaran. This is not a faith group of peace, please read their book. There are peaceful Muslim, but not because of their Quaranic studies.
Jesus never spoke of cultural domination, in fact Revelations tells us we will be dominated, until He returns.
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Could it be that lots of evangelicals aren’t evangelizing because they, deep down inside, admit that giving people their religion isn’t really going to help other people DO anything?
We like our religion – it suits us fine, as long as it take up our time and refuses to produce permanent changes in our lives; as long as we’re pretending to be on a “spiritual journey” with Jesus, all that sin-and-redemption can be kind of a fun game. But maybe we don’t share it because we know its a pet solipsism and its narcissistic and it would spoil the reverie if somebody else came to it on their own terms.
As long as we can theologize, pray, sing, rake over our consciences and bitterly defend the Jesus flag against the heathens and sodomites, we’re happy to be Christians. But the moment we actually have to put away our church-cant for the opportunity to address rational, honest people and explain what it’s really good for, we get shy and defensive and fill the awkward pause with culture-war rhetoric.
Innocent questions make pious people go evil.
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I wonder: how does the low personal cost of the Christian faith in America fit into this?
The early church (100-300AD) turned people away because they didn’t think they were serious enough, and taught people how to live a Christian life before baptizing them and teaching them doctrine. And the church was massively persecuted at the same time.
And yet that was when the church grew the fastest, because we actually trained people how to be Christians.
Somehow that fits into this. But I’m not sure how.
Excellent Post.
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iMonk,
I’m part of a new church plant in Connecticut. I desperately want to see us grow through evangelism. I have a background in campus ministry, and for better or worse I’m often known as “the evangelism guy” (usually for worse). Though my heart is for the city, my church is in the suburbs and I’m racking my brain about how to do consistent, influential evangelism in the suburban context.
I want to fight against all the dangers you warn about in this post, but I’m struggling with how to go about it. (Maybe I could pick your brain at Advance ’09).
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Some people watch that video and see a threat, and others see an opportunity. The world is coming to our shores. I say amen for the chance to embrace them with the love of Christ, and change some hearts and minds through our words and deeds.
No fear in that.
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“According to the culture war advocates, “those unbelievers†are the enemies of Christians and the kind of Christian culture we believe we are supposed to fight for. Are atheists, gays, Democrats, progressives and non-evangelicals in America actually people evangelicals are looking at as potential Christians? Give me a break.”
I think that is true to a great extent. I am multiple of those categories and I really do sometimes feel as though the Christians have declared war on me and my culture. The only thing that keeps me from returning the hate is that I remember the good Mennonites, Quakers, Orthodox Christians, and Catholics I have known in my own real life and remember that they didn’t hate me or consider me an enemy.
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Hey Mike – you should have stayed with that family in the trailer park and planted the church there. Go where the people are instead of trying to get them in your box.
I have just had another small home group of good church folks fizzle out. Second one this year. I think I’ll grab one of the teens from the youth group and start having church down at the skate park next week. There seems to be more “good soil” down there.
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I saw that video and had similar feelings to the ones you wrote about.
The funny thing is…the Muslims had Spain and Portugal for hundreds of years.
Ruling powers wax and wane.
We need to accept that.
It is far more likely that the Muslim populations in Western countries will enjoy democracy and the freedom they have in Europe and North America. It is quite possible that these “Muslims” will change and alter their beliefs as most cultures do when in prolonged contact with other cultures.
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“Our decline is because of who we want to be and how we want things to operate. We want the culture to adjust to us. We want our families to be saved. We don’t want to cross any barriers and we don’t want to have do something we decided the pastor is paid to do.”
iMonk, this is such a heartbreaking post. And the above paragraph is such a damning summary of the church. We simply don’t know how to be IN the world anymore. Who can convince us that our calling is not just to GATHER, but also to SCATTER into relationships with our neighbors, in the context of real life, to share Christ’s love as their neighbors, their friends, their companions in this journey we call life?
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>I’m not willing to take that risk with my children’s future
The best man in my wedding took his family and has lived in an Arab state for 20 years. Did he put his children at risk?
The video is about as bigoted toward Muslims as its possible to be.
peace
ms
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Amen to all,
but….
“Further, the unstated, but blatantly assumed premise that Muslims will revoke constitutions and destroy the rights of non-Muslims in countries where they dominate is less than certain”
1. History as far as I know shows very few if any examples of democratic muslim societies developing by themselves, i.e. Western democrocies, that have not been either colonies of Christian cultures heavily influenced by them
2. I’m not willing to take that risk with my children’s future
But the evangelism stuff more importantly is spot on. Very true but sad.
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