iMonk 101: The Sin We Love To Hate

70 thoughts on “iMonk 101: The Sin We Love To Hate”

1. As far as I can tell as a non Christian, the issue for me is not necessarily who Christians love. That is an issue for their own community. The issue is wether they want to use the force of the state to punish those who disobey their religious laws. I think that most Christians agree that it is a sin to worship another god, but I would posit that very few think it should be a crime. But for some reason, another sin is one they think SHOULD be a crime. That is what upsets me.

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2. Ralph….”controversial” doesn’t come close to describing what I just read at that link.

   IMonk….you just made it really easy for me to remove your blog from my favorite list.
   Inflammatory rhetoric linked without one word of caution from you, our moderator.

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3. You can see the demonic presence in their eyes, just like you can in the eyes of many idol worshippers in overtly pagan societies. Those who have spiritual eyes themselves can see it. — Forrest James

   That sounds far too much like the Gnostic “*I* Have Spiritual Eyes” type that makes me wonder if I just stepped through the reality barrier into a bad Star Wars prequel or Call of Cthulhu game. Or into the hands of some Witchfinder-General smelling out Witches through Spectral Evidence.

   I think the problem is that these days Evangelical identity is oppositional, they know what they aren’t, but they don’t know what they are. — Dave the PK

   “WHATEVER IT IS — I’M AGAINST IT!”
   — Groucho Marx as Professor Wagstaff, Horsefeathers

   Try telling some of these people that Reagan was engaged in ongoing sin, they don’t like it. — Dave the PK

   Oh, Reagan got on a LOT of Christians’ bad side back in ’81, but for a completely different reason. He told the Christian Culture warriors of the time that he had been elected President of the US — the entire country, not any single faction within it.

   You saw the “RONALD WILSON REAGAN = 666!” posters and grafitti within days of that statement.

   There are other incoherences in certain strains of Evangelical Christianity; cheerleaders for war, but pro-life. Pro-death penalty, but pro-life. — Dave the PK

   These are some of those inexplicable connections you find everywhere, like pro-abortion plus gun control, or pro-abortion plus pro-animal-rights. Just more of Unsolved Mysteries of the Universe.

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4. For what it’s worth, there’s a web piece (I spotted it on Google) entitled “God to Same-Sexers: Hurry Up” that takes a decidedly different approach to the gay issue. Controversial? Yes. But definitely thought-provoking. Ralph

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5. I agree with a previous poster that homosexuality is a scapegoat for the immoral nature of society. Considering the moral ambiguity that some Evangelicals can display concerning torture, I don’t believe the problem Evangelicals have with homosexuality is a case of Manichean understanding of the world. I think the problem is that these days Evangelical identity is oppositional, they know what they aren’t, but they don’t know what they are. The same could be said of many Americans. Many of these folks are so ignorant of Scripture that they don’t know that serial monogamy (divorce and remarriage) is verboten in the New Testament. Try telling some of these people that Reagan was engaged in ongoing sin, they don’t like it.

   I think another problem is the clergy. Many clergymen, including my father, are aware of double-standard their flock have vis-a-vis socially acceptable sins. Yet these preachers are too cowardly to confront their own flock. Instead, they keep the focus on the “world” (external forces) so everyone can continue to feel good about themselves.
   There are other incoherences in certain strains of Evangelical Christianity; cheerleaders for war, but pro-life. Pro-death penalty, but pro-life. I also think many Evangelicals don’t realize that we are supposed to pay our taxes and be loyal to the powers that be, but we aren’t supposed to try and justify their actions. I don’t recall Christ or Paul ever saying “we need a righteous man in Rome.” The debauchery the emperors were capable of would make even the worse escapades in the Oval Office pale by comparison.

   Personally, I find my grandmother (traditional Church of the Brethren with Mennonite ancestors)’s German Anabaptist sensibilities to be more coherent and less full of inconsistencies than Anglo-American based Evangelical traditions. For her people the world is always sinful, there is no changing it, and the greatest struggle is the internal one.

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6. Ben:

   You have category errors. You make orientation into something that is behavioral. Behaviors include thoughts, words and deeds.

   Ontological labels (labels that are true about you independent of behavior or choice): man,black ,white ,human, gay.

   Consider: white/black/human/heterosexual lifestyle/choice

   Behavioral Labels (labels that are meaningless apart from behavior. Some of those behaviors may seem indelible and involuntary(ie no choice): adulterer, liar, thief, alcoholic, addict, child-molester, gossip, glutton, hero, or in the example you provided: bridled adulterer.

   Consider: Your example: “bridled adulterer” not “bridled man” or “bridled heterosexual”

   The Sin Label: 1) All humans bear labels from both categories. 2) The label “sinner/sinful” applies to all humans and all labels and so is unique.

   Consider: Evangelicals believe that we are sinners because we sin (behavioral). Lutherans (like me!) believe we sin because we are sinners (ontological, or rather the anti-ontology. What would be the implications of this fundamental theological difference in viewpoint here?

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7. I can’t read these comments anymore, and IMonk, I can’t read your words on this subject anymore. It’s just so frustrating and heartbreaking.
   Once again I will post that I am a Christian lesbian. I have posted other thoughts on other threads of this same topic, so I won’t repeat it all here. Just let me say that I tried for years to do it the “biblical” way of denying myself, taking up my cross. What I have discovered is that this is man’s idea, not God’s. He wants His children happy, healthy and whole…not suffering for Him. He wants us to enjoy this life. He also told me in many different that He made me perfectly and wonderfully….that I should stop hating the person He made me to be.
   That’s where I rest in Him…Jehovah God and His Son Jesus….the Way Shower. So….what can man to do me? Nothing. I do love you all….sincerely and completely.
   Now, carry on figuring out how to carry this burden of judgement around in a state of grace.

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8. Aliasmoi: There’s a difference between orientation and behavior. Even if a person has no control over who he feels attracted to, he certainly has control over who he as sex with. For example, I may have no control over feeling attracted to women who are not my wife, but God clearly expects me not to act on this “orientation.”

   Luckily, it’s not my job to condemn anyone, but it doesn’t really surprise me when some Christians speak out more loudly about homosexuality than they do other kinds of sin. Adulterers, for example, generally do not hold parades in which they claim that they’ve made a perfectly valid lifestyle choice and that the rest of us should offer them some kind of legal recognition.

   Fortunately for me, most of my sins don’t show on the outside.

   iMonk: You said you weren’t going to have a Protestant/Catholic discussion on the issue but then ask for Bible quotes to support the Catholic position.

   In related news, I’m not about to have any sweet snacks today. Also, if anyone has any cupcakes, I’ll take one.

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9. Sarah O:

   “So it seems to me that the call to love everyone- regardless of their sexual behavior- is one that shouldn’t be held hostage to the likelihood that loving people in the verb sense won’t make them automatically agree or affirm your own believes, or even stop hating you.

   It should be done because in that joyful, radically, giving of the self in love to others, we create a space that can be filled with God’s love for us- for us to experience and appreciate that love?”

   That sounds correct. Bless those who curse you, love your enemies, etc. Suffering for doing right is blessing; suffering for doing wrong is justice.

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10. “‘If EVERYTHING about how we treated homosexuals was completely different, NOTHING about how homosexuals view the church would be any different.’

    Hm.

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say you’re mistaken about this one, Brian.”

    Maybe you believe that an approach of “I maintain that the lifestyle on which you base your identity is sinful and wrong, but I’m going to be very kind and compassionate towards you anyway” is going to impress your gay neighbor. Maybe for some it will. I say that the gay neighbor more likely will receive it as something like “I maintain that you as a black person are inherently inferior to me as a white person, but I’m going to be very kind and compassionate towards you anyway.”

    I say that our discussion sounds to them like “How do we treat black people with dignity and respect without compromising our belief that we are racially superior to them?”

    So no, I don’t at all buy this nonsense of “If we’re just super nice to gays, they’ll overlook what our religion teaches.” If the Christian carries out Jesus’ commands correctly with regard to loving his gay neighbor, he will be perceived as a very polite bigot.

    The reason this is important is because if getting the larger culture to stop calling us hateful bigots on the subject of homosexuality stays as the unspoken assumed goal (which your response confirms to me that it is), or that it is the physical evidence that we have come into accord with God’s will on the matter, then when being very kind and compassionate to gays fails to work, we’ll be sorely tempted just to move away from the faith as handed down to us.

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11. @Holly S., you’re absolutely right. If we spent more time working on ways to include people rather than find rationales to exclude them, it would be much better.

    Good article, iMonk.

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12. Jesus became sin.

    Jesus became EVERYTHING that we are.

    Jesus became everything that YOU are.

    There must be no quotes around that word sin.

    He bodily represented the ENTIRE human race as second adam eclipsing the first.

    No. one. is. excluded. from. this. fact.

    So we MUST say that he who knew no sin, was a mother, a father, a son, a daughter , a black man, a gay man.

    Jesus also became a child molester, a drug addict, a gossip, a liar, a thief, and whatever is the very worst thing you have ever done or continue to do in your life. He became that secret thing about you that you would die for people to know is true about you.

    In exchange, he gives you, through the instrumentality of your baptism: everything he is. everything he has. You become the righteous-ness of God.

    He does all this PURELY out of goodness and mercy, without any goodness or merit on our part. not even ONE DROP of merit in an ocean of His goodness.

    So when you fail to see a homosexual, a black man, or a white man as Jesus, he will at the end say “you did not know me”.

    To the extent you have given love to the unlovable, the least the last, the lost, and those not worthy or deserving of anything good, indeed those justly worthy of your righteous condemnation for who they are or what they do, Jesus says “whatsoever you have done unto them, you have done unto me!”

    THIS, and nothing short of THIS, is what christian morality and sanctification looks like.

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13. I don’t really get why us Christians make such a big deal about what we don’t believe/condone than what we should be believing. Does that make sense? We spend more time arguing about stuff we say shouldn’t be done than doing stuff we SHOULD do.

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14. Likewise, the very same people who hammer away at those who are considered intolerant, or hateful, or homophobic — and keep harping on the fact that homosexuality is (at worst) just one sin among many — then go on to denounce intolerance, and bigotry, as if they’re the unpardonable sins. — Ricky H

    Ricky, in the Game of Christian One-Upmanship, The Unpardonable Sin is ALWAYS “Whatever YOU Do that I Don’t”. Keep that in mind (and its mirror-image of “The Really Really Real Proof of Salvation is Whatever I Do that YOU Don’t”) and a lot of Christian Culture War talk (and infighting) falls right into place.

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15. I think I might stand a better chance of going to hell for simply being an American, living in and implicitly supporting a society based on greed, a society where everything from justice to health care to education to political influence is based on the amount of money a person has, than for any sexual sin.

    We like to occupy ourselves with this bedroom stuff while meanwhile we’re living in the modern incarnation of the Roman Empire.

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16. iMonk, the Orthodox do not talk about mortal and venial sin. That is a Roman distinction. Nevertheless, uhm, there is a verse that is used to speak of that distinction.

    In 1 John 5 it says, “If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.”

    So, there is a sin leading to death and a sin not leading to death. From that the Romans derive mortal and venial sin.

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17. iMonk:

    Clarification appreciated.

    The “consequences” dimension is one I think could stand examining. I say this because while it is good, and very needed, to be open to and love our neighbors in homosexual relationships, in my own experience their embrace of these relationships has far more easily visible or long-term noticeable effects than sins like … well, even saying it like this sets me up for problems. But I’ll simply say sexual sins seem to often have very soul-deadening effects that make me hesitate to lump them as “sin like all sin is sin,” even though I agree with your clarification.

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18. God loves us aliasmoi. He will not send homosexuals to hell.

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19. I think it’s easy to see (from the comments here and elsewhere) why this issue is so contentious, and why that isn’t likely to change anytime soon.

    There…is…no…balance.

    The very same people who hammer away on the verses about God hating sin, and _______ not entering the Kingdom of Heaven, and not giving sin a foothold, seem to completely ignore the verses about all sins being equally offensive to God, and not judging hypocritically, and loving people as Jesus loved people (i.e., while we were still sinners, Christ died for us).

    Likewise, the very same people who hammer away at those who are considered intolerant, or hateful, or homophobic — and keep harping on the fact that homosexuality is (at worst) just one sin among many — then go on to denounce intolerance, and bigotry, as if they’re the unpardonable sins.

    Bigotry and hypocrisy are sins. Period. They need the same compassion and love as people who are caught up in the more currently respectable sins. But I don’t see it happening. No one is calling for more understanding of bigots.

    There is no balance. There is no humility. Each side is clearly convinced that the other side’s sins are worse. Each side is hopelessly convinced of their side’s moral and spiritual superiority.

    Jesus calls us to love indiscriminately. If the occasion arises naturally, to discuss the sin in someone’s life, then do it humbly, carefully, and compassionately. But don’t feel like you have to force the issue, as if God’s gonna let someone’s eternal destiny hinge on whether or not you awkwardly and tactlessly confronted them with the fact of their sin. God’s not that desperate, or that weak.

    Unfortunately, I’ve seen too many (on both sides of this and others issues) who justify a rude, disrespectful approach by claiming that some things are too important to worry about such trifles as common courtesies. What nonsense.

    Jesus didn’t stop loving or being kind to people just because they didn’t accept him. So why should we?

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20. aimai: Can you point towards a real-this-world- consequence of your lesbian relatives existence that is actually a problem?

    Just to name a couple: A trail of broken marriages (she has a history of befriending married women – who, eventually, leave and divorce their husbands). The financial burden on her parents, as they try to help raise her son (because she often acts more like an irresponsible aunt).

    Also, the argument that something is only a sin if it causes problems for someone else is a red herring. There are are plenty of sins mentioned in scripture that don’t necessarily have negative real world impact on others — but that doesn’t make them any less sinful.

    You also said: Because if its not a problem for her, your continued insistence as a particular kind of christian that its *going to be a problem* down the road, in heaven, is going to come across as…well…ugly.

    What’s “ugly” is misquoting (or erroneously quoting) someone, just so you can take some self-righteous cheap shots at things they don’t believe in to begin with.

    I never said anything about it being “a problem down the road, in heaven” — so you must be getting me confused with somebody else.

    And as for the rest of your comment (on 08 May 2009 at 7:58 am): Wow, you provide a perfect example of the kind of blind bombastic rhetoric I was talking about in my initial comment (on 08 May 2009 at 3:40 am). Your description of what you think I believe is wildly off the mark — and none of my friends fit the description, either. No one that I know condones the kind of ridiculously hypocritical behaviour you describe (in fact, I explicitly condemn it in my comment). But you’re so convinced of your own bigoted view of what you think people you’ve never met believe, that you apparently feel justified in whatever lies and slanders you use to attack them.

    My original comment (which you quoted a couple of snippets of) was pointing out how the my-mind’s-made-up-don’t-confuse-me-with-the-facts attitude, of too many people on both sides, obscures the fact that many, many Christians don’t fall into either extreme. Maybe if you’d actually read all of my comment, you would have seen that. But thanks for proving my point.

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21. All sin is equal in that it is against God the holy lawgiver. All sin is equal in that Christ died for sins that we might be the righteousness of God in him. All sin is the same diagnosis and the same remedy in relation to God.

    All sin is NOT equal in many other ways. It is not equal in origin, intention, motivation or consequences.

    I will not be having a Protestant/Catholic discussion on this post, but if you have it on good authority that God was not all that outraged or wrathful at breaking a silly request not to touch a fruit, then it’s news to whoever wrote Romans 5.

    I get to use “very Protestant” arguments. I’m “very Protestant.”

    I’ll take any verses you have on that “mortal” and “venial” distinction, though. I thought Romans 6:23 was pretty clear.

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22. “God is just as outraged, offended and wrathful at my pettiness, pride, laziness, lying, lust and gluttony as he is at my friend’s same sex relationship (if there is one.) The problem is, I LIKE my sins. Not as sin, but as behaviors that WORK for me just fine.”

    This is very Protestant theology, but it also cannot be supported by Bible verses, can it? All sin is offensive to God, yes. Equally offensive? I just don’t see it, nor does it jive with common sense.

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23. (((Virtual Hugs to a Hurting Lesbian)))

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24. Jesse,
    Yes, I see your point. I am actual a Catholic, if that makes any difference. I still have to uphold what God says in his word regarding heter or homo
    sexual relations. Again, love the sinner, and hate the sin. Since, it is in my own family with my nephew, I love him. I treat him with respect, I don’t preach, but I do point out when asked.
    He knows where I stand, and I won’t budge. God wants our holiness, not our happiness. That seems so cruel, but our holiness leads to so much more happiness.

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25. How is your friend doing since the first time this was posted?

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26. Patrick –

    That was tongue in cheek. I’m Orthodox.

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27. Would some of the tensions be alleviated if gay folk who want to have a partner, simply left the churches that don’t accept them? A reading of Corinthians indicates that the church is not to judge those outside the church. So gays could find Jesus, if they need him, in the UCC, TEC, and a few other affirming churches, or if not Jesus, there is Reform Judaism, the UU church (some of whom embrace Jesus?), Wicca, and a few others.

    Would this at least de-escalate the situation?

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28. “And as far as asking Christians with homosexual yearnings to live celibate, I think it would be wonderful if a lot of Christians with heterosexual tendencies, even strong ones, would lie across the wire for them in example.”

    MuleChewingBriars, I submit to you the Catholic Church, and the countless nuns, monks, and priests who’ve quietly kept their vows of chastity over the millenia.

    To say nothing of non-Christian faiths who successfully practice celibacy, of course.

    Examples of celibate people, even celibate people “with heterosexual tendencies”, are really not very difficult to come by.

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29. aimai, one sin Jesus does continuously bring up is teaching false things, leading people astray.. he’s not too big on serial monogamy, either.

    It’s not at all simple or even sensible to say that Jesus would be ‘for’ homosexuality – the church has long held that denying oneself and quietly taking up one’s cross to follow Christ can and must mean the denial of one’s sexual preference in order to pursue a path of holiness.

    That’s not really in vogue in Christianity these days (God forbid we actually take Paul at face value on the whole chastity thing), but gays (not to mention real deviants, like pedophiles and others) have always been a part of the church, and part of their faith has been to yoke their sexuality to the cross and find wholeness through God.

    Self control is unpopular. It’s not impossible though. We should really stop pretending that it is.

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30. Imonk,
    I appreciate your perspective on this issue. There is a great need for compassion when dealing with this population segment that so rarely receives compassion from Christians.

    I’m curious (and not in a completely hypothetical way) how you see this post interacting with your recent series on church discipline. When (if?) do you proceed with a form of discipline for a church member who refuses to repent of a homosexual lifestyle, i.e. who believes Jesus blesses it, and what would that process look like? If the person is not a member of the local church, but a close friend who is part of the universal church, does the process look different?

    I find this to be a pertinent question because I find it less common in experience for someone confronted with their anger, gluttony, lust, drunkenness, etc. to respond with “It is who I am and Jesus blesses it.” Many sins we are blind to, true, and for many sins we struggle against the Spirit calling us to repent. But what about those sins called out in the bible that we convince ourselves the bible says are not sins. In today’s culture, there are a growing number of these sins that people are just getting backward — greed (prosperity), pride (self esteem), and sexuality (sexual orientation, cohabitation) seem to be at the top of the list.

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31. I’d like to respond to Brian’s post just a few above mine-

    Brian, I agree with you that, to some extent, there is nothing that Christians can do to make themselves uniformly loved and embraced by all the people in the world who aren’t Christian. Even if we could somehow magically erase the checkered history of Christianity as a religion of humans, prone to human errors and evils, and even if somehow every single Christian, today, suddenly begain treating every single gay or lesbian person with consistent love and kindness- I agree, you are right, there are still people, gay or straight, who would continue to hate Christians and what they stand for.

    But I feel that is a side issue, and one that really is kind of pointlessly, or dangerously, distracting. My understanding of the Bible is shoddy at best, but two things really stand out to me- the first is the call to love as God loves, and the second is the insistance that followers of Christ be prepared to give up the seductions of this world to follow Christ in that act of radical loving and submission.

    Homosexuality and sexual licentiousness are often painted as some of the chief and most dangerous temptations that are to be given up- but honestly, it seems to me that the temptation towards power over others, towards being absolutely “right” and acknowledged as such, towards being comfortable, and towards being liked are far more insiduous and more powerful temptations that we face in this world. And they are truly temporal- they truly exist only to feed into their own existance.

    So it seems to me that the call to love everyone- regardless of their sexual behavior- is one that shouldn’t be held hostage to the likelihood that loving people in the verb sense won’t make them automatically agree or affirm your own believes, or even stop hating you.

    It should be done because in that joyful, radically, giving of the self in love to others, we create a space that can be filled with God’s love for us- for us to experience and appreciate that love?

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32. “Let’s not be under any illusion that if Christians consistently showed true Christian love and kindness to homosexuals, that the depiction of us as backwards hateful bigots would change one iota, or that most gays would not still be very angry.”

    WHAT?

    …

    ‘If EVERYTHING about how we treated homosexuals was completely different, NOTHING about how homosexuals view the church would be any different.’

    Hm.

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say you’re mistaken about this one, Brian.

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33. hurting,
    you found one

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34. I don’t hate homosexuals. God knows I’ve tried over the years. I could care less what people do in the privacy of their own bedroom, and to be blunt, I could care less if Jack and Max got married in the National Cathedral or if they kissed in front of my kids.

    I still don’t like dwelling too deeply on how they express that love physically. It makes me queasy.

    To be honest, I would prefer the Bible to stop being the Word of God on this issue and drop to being a quaint collection of myths and tribal propaganda based on outdated cultural norms. I’m tired of all the static I see on this issue, and to be blunt, I don’t see homosexuality as the end result of a Romans 1 process of increasing decadence.

    The Bible just doesn’t fit my experience here. I know a lot of people in homosexual relationships, none of whom were practicing idolators prior to expressing their homosexual desires. I have a hard time when the Bible doesn’t fit my experience, because it is so true in so many other places.

    And as far as asking Christians with homosexual yearnings to live celibate, I think it would be wonderful if a lot of Christians with heterosexual tendencies, even strong ones, would lie across the wire for them in example.

    I wish I had never been a Protestant. I would have loved to be a monk.

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35. “If you are someone in my life who is engaged in the sin of homosexual behavior, I love you. I respect you. I embrace you as a human being like me, a sinner like me, and person to whom God offers forgiveness and grace in the body and blood of his Son, Jesus….” Michael, thank you. I hope someday I find a Christian who can look me in the eye and say something similar.

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36. Lynne:

    Not to start a separate fight, but much of white protestantism in the South was, at best, silent about slavery and segregation, and at worst actively supported it. Once the Bible becomes less about Jesus and his kingdom and more about preserving a white, Judeo-Christian culture, all manner of unbiblical things happen. This, among all the reasons that Imonk blogs about, is why secular folk by and large consider the opinions of Big “C” Christianity irrelevant at best and not worthy of respect at worst. The Dobsons, Falwells and Robertsons of the world have done so much damage that no one is listening anymore…

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37. Let’s not be under any illusion that if Christians consistently showed true Christian love and kindness to homosexuals, that the depiction of us as backwards hateful bigots would change one iota, or that most gays would not still be very angry.

    Our moral and ethical code teaches that homsexuality is immoral and sinful. The emerging moral and ethical code of the larger society is that those who uphold such teaching are the immoral ones.

    Our definition of love is not the same as the emerging social consensus. Theirs requires an affirmation of lifestyle choices. The mere affirmation that our faith holds homosexuality to be sinful makes us hateful in their eyes.

    Since Christianity opposes homosexual conduct, the only choices to make society happy with us on the issue are:
    1) “change” Christianity so homosexuality is OK (liberal Protestants, emergents)
    2) abandon Christianity entirely
    3) keep our mouths shut about the issue

    Our efforts to change our behavior can only be focused on living up to the commands Jesus gave us. If we do it right, the world will still hate us, but at least they will hate us because we are obedient rather than because we deserve it.

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38. Dan D. I only stopped the quote there to stay on topic. It was a response to Aimai. I am with you, I believe sin is sin, all of us sinners in need of a Savior and the sanctification of the Holy Spirit, to overcome.

    The church where I now preach once had a pastor who was locally famous for concentrating almost all of his sermons around homosexuality. Is it me or does that make you wonder if he has a problem with his own orientation? That might be like me preaching about cake.

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39. This is an issue that absolutely rips my heart out. The Bible and my church say that homosexuality is a sin. But, I’ve known so many gay people who were such beautiful human beings and who – in all other areas of their lives – shamed a lot of Christians I know. It’s really hard for me to think God might send them to hell for something that they so clearly can’t control. But, on the flip side of that – if He does – who am I to question God?

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40. Of course, wrestling is gay anyway, but…all night? And then his first thought is to reach for his “thighs” and demand a blessing? Hello–innuendo, anyone? (”God is gay”–now THERE’S a slogal to inspire a generation!) — TMNT

    Oh, it gets better, TMNT. “Thighs” is KJV for “genitalia”; apparently to ancient Semitic tribes, swearing on your genitalia was the most powerful of oaths, as you were putting your fertility (and all your descendants) on the line.

    One major point these posts and other commentators have been trying to make is that we give special class of sin to the homosexuality mentioned in 6:9 but don’t have much to say about the greedy, adulterers, slanderers, etc. Where is the campaign to make adultery a punishable civil crime again? — Dan D

    When all the Upstanding and Righteous have no inclination whatsoever to sleep around on the side and/or no chance of ever getting caught doing so. The Unpardonable Sin is ALWAYS the one the denouncer as no chance of EVER committing (or getting caught at). And so it all goes back to One-Upmanship.

    “What is the proper response to, “If you loved me, you’d attend the Gay Pride rallies with me”? Or, “If you loved me, you’d approve of my sexual orientation”?” — Pat Lynch

    Probably the same as to “If you loved me, you’d let me into your pants.” Both are gross manipulation intended to force your will upon the other.

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41. Hi,
    I am trying to understand this blog on this subject. I have a gay nephew, who I love very much. He knows I support him, but I can not agree
    to his lifestyle. Sometimes, I feel like I am being persuaded even in the Christian Church to
    accept homosexuality as ok. Years ago, Slavery
    and discrimination were practiced. And the church
    fought against both. But fighting to accept homosexuality on the same basis is not the same.
    I agree, that some people have homosexual tendencies, and have a struggle. But we all have different tendencies, whether it be eating too much, or anger issues etc. We have to learn to fight these tendencies, with God’s help. I am finding it harder and harder to explain to my young daughter what a true relationship is, when the world seems to be accepting of everything. My dad use to say to me as a kid, “stand for something, or fall for everything.”

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42. aimai,

    You know, I certainly agree with what you say in this statement: “I’m really sick of so called christian compassion… which always seems to demand some kind of recompense.” And “Your christianity, such as it is, is something that you choose. You don’t get a pass for choosing the brand that makes it impossible, or even difficult, for you to simply treat your relative with courtesy and love at all times.”

    OK, got it. (I’m a Christian, not fundamentalist, not gay, BTW.)

    But then we come to the Gay Pride parade in your letter, and my agreement falters. You imply that if I don’t want to march in the Gay Pride parade with my relative, then I’m failing to treat my relative with courtesy and love.

    So if I said to my relative, “No, I don’t want to join the Gay Pride parade because I don’t really support homosexuality, as you know,” then am I unloving and discourteous? I think I’m being honest and true to myself, but you imply otherwise.

    Really, that’s the problem for me. If I must agree with gay people’s ideas absolutely, or not have a relationship with them, then I guess the latter is my only choice. But I hope it doesn’t come to that. I care for and work alongside the gay people in my (Episcopal) church, but I’m not entirely convinced that gay marriage and gay ordination are things my church ought to do. And they know I feel this way.

    It’s kind of like my support of the American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. In my church, I’ve lead several drives to collect goods and send care packages to units overseas. But in truth, I hate those wars; I am and always have been totally against them (in a much stronger way than I’ve ever opposed homosexual behavior). That doesn’t stop me from sending care packages, praying for the kids over there, and hoping they make it home safe. But if the soldiers said, “Look, you either support our mission 100%, or you can throw your bleeping care packages in the ocean,” then I guess that particular church work of mine would have to end, or at least be handed over to someone more supportive of the wars than I. I hope they don’t say that.

    While you are right in saying I chose Christianity, and it’s up to me to deal with my interactions within that framework, I do think that gay people who say to me, “My way or the highway, H. Lee” will be cutting off our interaction prematurely. If gay people truly don’t want to discuss anything with someone who isn’t totally in agreement with them, I guess that’s OK, but unfortunate. I deal with it one person at a time.

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43. Jesus never specifically mentions homosexuality

    aimai,

    Total red herring. Paul mentions it several times. The epistles are not less authoritative than the words of Jesus recorded in the gospels. Further, what we have in the gospels is not a verbatum transcript of each and every word that Jesus ever taught as John tells us at the end of his gospel. Finally, Jesus affirmed “the Law and the Prophets” (the Old Testament) as scripture. Therefore, He affirmed the prohibition of homosexual activity since it is contained in the Old Testament as being from God.

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44. I would like to post a link to a very thoughtful John Piper piece on the guilt of sexual failure http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/1927_How_to_Deal_with_the_Guilt_of_Sexual_Failure_for_the_Glory_of_Christ_and_His_Global_Cause . The main point of Pipers article is that Christians should strive for personal holiness but not let the guilt associated with common everyday sexual sins (masturbation and internet pornography) prevent Christians from perusing lives of “radical obedience to Christ” a expression that in this context seems to refer to “full time” Christian service. There is a lot of good stuff in the article but it is clearly written from the point of view of a middle aged married man speaking to young Christians (almost certainly) men who will soon be married and have legitimate outlets for there sexual natures. Its one thing to ask someone to hang on for a few years and then be faithful to their wife it’s quit another to ask a Gay Christian to live a life of celibacy. Else where Piper has written about the victory of “Theology over Biology” but even Paul said “if they cannot control themselves, they should get married, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion” 1 Corinthians 7:9. I worry that we are asking Gay Christians to carry a burden that we would never be able to shoulder our self’s.

    God Bless

    Steve in Toronto

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45. Satan’s schemes are so subtle: by focusing our attention on the reverse trinity of abortion, homosexuality, and evolution, he completely diverts us from our appointed mission while deceiving us into believing we are actually carrying it out. He has effectively stymied the church’s influence in this culture while letting us have the illusion of power. God, open our eyes to what we are doing.

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46. I’m reading these comments and all I can think about is the time a young man told me about the physical abuse he endured after his family found out he was gay. I had known this kid for years and had no idea any of this happened. I don’t even remember what I said to him when he confided this heartbreaking story. Whatever I said, I’m sure it wasn’t nearly adequate.

    I was so shaken by his story, I spent the entire next day crying. I asked God: why? I pleaded with God for an answer: Why do families abuse and throw away their own children? What did this young man do to deserve physical abuse and emotional abandonment by his own parents?

    I only want this cruelty to stop.

    I read these comments and I don’t feel like arguing with any of you. Those of you who judge who is a big C Christian and who is a little c christian, I realize you would never read Andrew Martin’s book If you did, it would only be to find stuff to criticize.

    What about the young people who are thrown away? Abandoned and marginalized, if their lives become wrecks then you can gleefully point to them and declare, “You see? This is the result of sin.”

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47. I occasionally write devotionals for our church website, and wrote this one last week that addresses the same issue:

    http://devotional.westsidefamilychurch.com/?p=140

    I think I can say we are in agreement, iMonk.

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48. Forrest–

    I really like your counterpoint, and find it hard to disagree with you… until you get into the “legal acceptance” portion. My thoughts on this are twofold: 1) It’s not our duty as Christians to legislate our religious ideals into law. In fact, it’s arguably our duty to watch out for the “little guy”, especially those who are some how being oppressed. 2) The ability for committed homosexual couples to enjoy legal benefits the same as committed heterosexual couples, “married” or not, is not an issue Christians should be railing against– in fact, I find it hard to not consider it a civil rights issue from a legal standpoint.

    Great article iMonk, and great responses in the comments.

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49. The way I view the “Trinity of sin” used by evangelicals is this

    Homosexuality – Scapegoat for the state of immorality in this nation.

    Evolution – Control Education.

    Abortion – Control reproductive rights.

    I know many Christians have reasons for believing these things are wrong. But this is the goal of the people who seek to politicise Christianity (ie. Robertson, Dobson, etc.), and I think it is wise to question them when they argue about these things.

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50. Willoh,

    The problem is you stopped with 1 Cor 6:9. The rest of the sentence is “10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

    One major point these posts and other commentators have been trying to make is that we give special class of sin to the homosexuality mentioned in 6:9 but don’t have much to say about the greedy, adulterers, slanderers, etc. Where is the campaign to make adultery a punishable civil crime again?

    Stopping at 1 Cor 6:9-10 misses an important point anyway. Here is 1 Cor 6:11 “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

    They were saved, not because they were able to stop their sins, but because of Jesus and the Spirit of God. Why do so may expect the unsaved to behave as God commands?

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51. “What is the proper response to, “If you loved me, you’d attend the Gay Pride rallies with me”? Or, “If you loved me, you’d approve of my sexual orientation”?”

    Laughter? Tell her to finish getting over herself while you make her lunch.

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52. That’s okay–liberals love to hate fundamentalist Christians. (Except when it’s our mom.) All in good fun.

    Has anybody heard the theory–so help me, this is taken seriously among liberal OT scholars–that when Jacob / Israel “wrestled” with the angel / YHWH all night at Peniel, they weren’t really “wrestling” if you know what I mean (and I think you do)? Of course, wrestling is gay anyway, but…all night? And then his first thought is to reach for his “thighs” and demand a blessing? Hello–innuendo, anyone? (“God is gay”–now THERE’S a slogal to inspire a generation!)

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53. You’ve all made my point for me–Jesus never specifically mentions homosexuality. Of the things and the sins he did mention he specifically leaves out lots of things that people of his time thought were important, and he hammers away at sins of the economy, the sin of wealth, of pride, of high standing.

    As for the person up above who “seeks to balance loving the person without appearing to endorse the lifestyle…” but who has the problem that “the lesbian demands that her lifestyle be tacitly endorsed by other family members…”

    well, I think that’s a very interesting problem to have. Myself, I don’t have any family members who I actually love, personally, who I would continue to treat as a “sinner.” I have people I love who are troubled, of course, and then I reach out to help them with their trouble–financial, whatever. But, of course, if they don’t recognize the difficulty their lifestyle choice places them in now there’s little I can do. Can you point towards a real-this-world- consequence of your lesbian relatives existence that is actually a problem? Because if its not a problem for her, your continued insistence as a particular kind of christian that its *going to be a problem* down the road, in heaven, is going to come across as…well…ugly.

    I get that christians just hate when the ugly, dangerous, mean, things that their co-religionists do are thrown back in their face. I would never shoot an abortion doctor! I just kind of applaud the people who throw themselves in front of a pregnant woman and scream “murderer” while she tries to save her life with a therapeutic abortion. I would never cast off my own gay daughter and throw her into the street but I’m ok with some preacher thundering denunciations of her copulating like a dog in the streets and burning in a lake of fire.

    Is the worst thing that happens to people getting called out–yes, even called a bigot–for continually intruding their particularistic, legalistic, tribale religious sensibilities on people in their own families who have made a different decision about how to live their lives? The lesbian wants her mother to march in the pride parade? Shock and horror! Next she and her partner will want the grandmother to show up at grandmother’s day at the pre-school!

    I’m really sick of so called christian compassion–warning, I’m neither gay nor christian–which always seems to demand some kind of recompense. Why should gays and lesbians and non christians just give you a pass on hateful behavior because you are “struggling with how to balance loving the person…with your christianity.” Your christianity, such as it is, is something that you choose. You don’t get a pass for choosing the brand that makes it impossible, or even difficult, for you to simply treat your relative with courtesy and love at all times.

    aimai

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54. Forrest James: It is quite presumptuous that you can see the “Demons” in the eyes of gays as the effect of worshiping satan. That might be one part of the Bible that you can think of symbolicly and not figuratively. What’s next? Exorcise the gays?

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55. The response of so many Christians to Hardaway’s comments, reminds me of the way many Pro-Life advocates responded to abortion clinic bombings, back in the ’90s. On all but a few rare occasions, the response was, “Well, yes, of course this is bad. But you must understand that it pales in comparison to the million-and-a-half abortions performed in this country each year.” And that used to drive me crazy. It’s not, “wrong, but…” — it’s just wrong! Period. No qualifiers needed. But they couldn’t resist the chance to spin it into a dig at the other side.

    What frustrates me (and others I know), is how both sides of the homosexuality debate talk past each other. You’re either a homphobe or a reprobate; a bigot or a heretic; repressed or a deviate. All gay people are loving, tolerant, and creative vs. all gays are promiscuous perverts out to brain-wash your kids with the “Gay Agenda”. Or, conservative Christians are ignorant, inolerant, homophobic hayseeds vs. conservative Christians are Christ loving, sin stomping, Spiritual Super-soldiers, who are simply exercising their righteous indignation towards the moral money-changers who have set up shop in the Temple of America.

    I struggle with how to balance loving the person, without appearing to endorse the lifestyle (and that’s true of the promiscuous heterosexual, the serially monogamous lesbian, and the chronic drunk in the family). As with all sinners (having no room to cast stones myself), I try to err on the side of compassion.

    The problem is, only the lesbian demands that her lifestyle be tacitly endorsed by other family members (I’m not saying all lesbians are like this). And that’s where many Christians are struggling. They’re not hateful bigots. They’re genuinely trying to find the right balance. What is the proper response to, “If you loved me, you’d attend the Gay Pride rallies with me”? Or, “If you loved me, you’d approve of my sexual orientation”?

    And finally, the constant criticisms of so many, towards Christians who stuggle to find a balanced approach to this issue, fail to offer them the same grace and compassion that they’re accused of not offering to others. But those exhibiting the sins of hypocrisy, indecision, bigotry and intolerance, are no less deserving of compassion and understanding than prostitutes, liars, addicts, homosexuals, and adulterers. Are they? They’re no less broken, and yet I never hear anyone calling for compassion, or attempting to truly understand what fears, hurts, or insecurities their sinful mindsets spring from.

    It’s an important issue, but I see so much nonsense being propagated by so many on both sides that it gets exhausting.

    I think your articles have been well balanced. I just wonder if either side is listening.

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56. In the Revelation of John the last ones mentioned to be cast into the Lake of Fire are “all liars.” In context the term “‘all liars” carries an emphatic sense. Earlier, in the same book, the Holy Spirit speaks through John of those who believe the “lie,” and “worship” antichrist. These scriptures are parallel to the first chapter of Romans where Paul writes of the “worship” of the creature rather than the Creator and of homosexuality as a horrible consequence and sign of that “worship.” Those caught in it are given over to destruction. Imonk, this is a intensely spiritual issue and many of the homosexuals you see on the streets of our nation’s capital, for instance, are visibly demonized. You can see the demonic presence in their eyes, just like you can in the eyes of many idol worshippers in overtly pagan societies. Those who have spiritual eyes themselves can see it.

    If you have compassion on them, the ones like your friend, you might no longer tell them, “I will disagree with you, but I will still love and respect you…..I will still want you to be my friend…. to worship with me and to be part of my life. I am blind to many of my sins as well….”. This is not true. If you are like the sinner in the parable who fell down in the temple before God and would not even raise his head and asked only for mercy, then you are not blind. If, when confronted with a hidden sin by the Holy Spirit or by others, you confess it in repentance, you are not blind. Both the self righteous religious person and the determined homosexual, are truly blind.

    The lamb slain in the book of Revelation is revealed also as the Lion of Judah. This is not the “meek and mild” Jesus of popular culture. If we let the lion roar within us we will drive out demons by the Spirit of God and bring the arm of salvation to many. I say this as much a challenge to myself as to you.

    Remember that Paul powerfully “demonstrated the Spirit” at Corinth, and later mentioned those (“some of you”) delivered from homosexuality there. When the gospel comes in power, even the most destructive works of darkness (incest, domestic abuse, and the like) are exposed and overcome.

    Our problem is our lack of power in the Lord. We may have some love (But do we really?), and maybe a reasonably sound mind as well, but where is our power? Is not the real “Jesus-shaped” life one of power? It’s not like we don’t need it. It’s just that following Him costs everything.

    And we are faced right now, at every turn, with a militant political movement to force the legal acceptance, indeed the political domination, of homosexuality on every community in this country. This is enormous darkness. I do not understand why you don’t mention this when you write about homosexuality on this blog. How can you miss the spiritual significance of what is going on in this regard?

    I agree with you on the worldliness and powerlessness of the “culture warriors” of the last decade. Nevertheless we are facing a (the?) great apostasy. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual. But we are at war. Therefore put on the whole armor of God.

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57. Thank you for your clear explanation of your belief. While I don’t believe quite as you do (I’m more liberal- I guess a christian according to Joe Blackman), I appreciate that you are focused on the Love of God and are not distracted from the bigger picture.

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58. Aimai, I believe it’s quite clear that Jesus called all sinners to repentance. “Jesus answered them, ‘It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.'” Luke 5:31-32

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59. That was a wonderful post, Michael. Our preoccupation with engaging the culture of the world thrives in spite of the sinfulness that flourishes inside our high-gated walls. And I understand all too well your list of personal sins, but at what point should we confront people inside the Church who engage in sin? Is that even possible without engaging in hypocrisy?

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60. Thank you for writing this. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners – of whom *I* am the worst.

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61. My first sentance should have read “The same christians (lower case “c” intentional) who complained about what Tim Hardaway said…”

    To answer your question, Jesus called sinners to repent all through the New Testament (Matthew 4:17, Mark 1:15, Luke 13:3 and 13:5). He didn’t have to name the specific sin. Since homosexuality is always a sin in all cases without any exception whatsoever the call to repent of sin is a call to repent of homosexuality.

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62. 1Cr 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
    1 tim 1,9-10 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,

    Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
    Romans 1,27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    Tax collectors were hated as traitors, not sinners, neither are the poor.
    That said, condemnation is not the road to salvation, love is.

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63. count me in with the nominal

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64. No one is asking anyone to do anything except accept that people are people and in need of love and redemption.

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65. Joe, I think you have missed the point. The point is that we do not condemn other, equally heinous, sins in the same way that we condemn the unholy trinity. I know more than one church that condemns homosexual practice but has heterosexual live-in couples who attend. They may not be “acceptable” but neither are they thrown out. Neither is there the same amount of energy used on preaching “against” them as there is against the unholy trinity.

    Trust me that I could give you several other examples.

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66. As I wrote in a comment to your post on Marin’s book, this is not some esoteric, what-if discussion for me. God has used this issue to transform my thinking and my heart. It is not a total transformation yet, but I believe I am heading in the right direction.

    Lately I have begun to see this issue as touching upon some of the core issues of Christianity. Our failure before God is that we don’t honor him as God – we turn him into a thing and objectify Him. Then as an object, we can do with Him as we please because we are now the god and we choose the way in which we will worship. When the lawyer came to Jesus and asked which was the great commandment, Jesus was quick to emphasize the link between honoring God and honoring your neighbor. Don’t turn God into an object. Don’t turn man into an object.

    So I had turned “them” into objects. (and please feel free to insert whatever you want in the “them” category: homosexuals, Muslims, liberals, etc) Then one day I discovered that my daughter was hanging out with “them”. She might even be one of “them”. She certainly sympathized with “them”. How could that be? Hadn’t she heard me rail against the evil of “them” and how they were subverting our culture?

    Hopefully you see where this is going. I wasn’t dealing with an object anymore; this was my own flesh and blood. As He walked the streets of Jerusalem, how Jesus’ heart must have ached when he saw how broken his creation had become. I can not begin to express in a forum like this how complex this issue is. But the more it plays out the more I am convinced that the hand of God is directing it, both in my life and in the culture of our country. God is purposeful and His glory will be revealed in His mercy to us through Jesus.

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67. Jesus loved the tax collectors, poor, outcasts etc… But it’s not clear that he thought of them as sinners who needed to repent and renounce tax collecting or poverty. What’s the scriptural backing for believing that Jesus would have wanted any modern person to repent or reject their same sex lover?

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68. The same christians (lower case “c” intentional) are the same ones who claim that homosexuality is acceptable in God’s eyes. Then, to top that all off, These christians (again, lower case “c” intentional) have the gall to accuse Christians who recognize homosexuality is sinful all the time without any exceptions whatsoever “bigots”. I’ve even had one of these christians (lower.cas…well you know the rest)tell me the church had no right to call homosexuals to repentance when there were fat people in church who needed to repent of glutton. Sad, sad state of affairs. Although, Paul did say in the last days there would be a falling away from the faith by nominal christians.

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69. Genesis 6:5-13
    And look later at what a solid citizen Noah turned out to be.
    I think the whole over-emphasis on homosexuality is first a lie of the enemy to distract us from loving one another and announcing the Good News.
    It is also a convenient cultural lighting rod which as pointed out above is no worse or better than my own list of heinous crimes.
    My goodness, how relieved I am that my sins are not apparent by the clothes I wear or the way I talk.
    We are not at war with homosexuals, liberals, Muslims or whoever else you can think up.
    We are at war with the enemy of God and a most devious enemy he is seeking to always lie and deceive to drive us apart rather than us seeing our common need of the Saviour.

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70. thank you so much iMonk for this. i have been wrestling with this issue for a couple of years. my favorite aunt, whom i love dearly above all my relatives is a lesbian. she has been in a relationship longer than most marriages i know. i am a christian and often hesitate to engage her in the Word because i don’t want her to feel that i am being judgmental and to turn her away from me. i love her so much that i don’t want to lose being in touch with her. i guess more than anything else, i need to constantly tell her that i love her. that i too am broken in many many ways (she knows that as well) and that it is by the blood of the Lamb that i am healed and being transformed.

    i’m trying to get a copy of Andrew Marin’s book. i live in the Philippines and i haven’t found a copy yet. thank you for your thoughts. it is really shaped by Jesus and His good news for us all.

    alvin

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