Oh, my dear children! I feel as if I’m going through labor pains for you again, and they will continue until Christ is fully developed in your lives. (Paul the Apostle, Letter to the Galatians, 4:19, NLT)
This line from Paul has stayed with me for two days. It comes from a section of the Galatian letter when Paul has shifted from teaching to recounting his personal relationship with the Galatians and the love he has for them. The metaphors here are especially insightful.
Paul isn’t in labor pains for the Galatians to come to faith as new believers. That’s already a reality. No, Paul is in “labor” as the Galatians are struggling in their journey toward Christ being “fully formed” in their lives. In other words, Paul is watching the struggle of real disciples, in the growth process, and his heart is the heart of a mother in labor and a father who longs to see a healthy child.
The Galatians aren’t the Corinthians, but they are in a mess. Flatterers have taken them down the road of a false Gospel. What was a solid church plant is at real risk, but Paul is not just concerned about doctrinal correctness. He is concerned over what will be the result of moving away from Jesus and the work of the Spirit, instead encouraging a dependence on flesh and the works righteousness of the old covenant. He sees dark results ahead if the Galatians lose this battle.
Paul’s view of the Galatians’ struggle spills over into his closing exhortations. He wants them to be a Jesus shaped community, and that means accepting the reality of struggle and helping one another. Here he is in chapter 6.
1 Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself. 2 Share each other’s burdens, and in this way obey the law of Christ. 3 If you think you are too important to help someone, you are only fooling yourself. You are not that important.
Paul’s investment in the Galatians is a great example. They struggle to be fully formed disciples. He agonizes with them. The Galatians are going to need encouragement and help as they struggle, fail and need a hand up. Paul tells them to gently and humbly enter into the struggles of others.
I read all this with an overwhelming sense that many evangelicals have no idea what it is to “gently and humbly” be part of a community of struggling disciples in the growth process. Their orientation, approach and words reveal a different model of discipleship: Why aren’t you acting like a “fully formed” disciple of Jesus now? Why don’t you get it right the first time.
Let me be the first one at the altar here. I’m so infested with the revivalistic theology of my upbringing that I have plenty of this attitude in my own thoughts and words. I regret it, and I hope I can repent and act more like Jesus and Paul. Too many strugglers have seen me nod is supposed sympathy, but my thoughts and actions were nothing like what Paul writes here or what Jesus demonstrates repeatedly in his mission.
Struggle is annoying to the person who externalizes it and pushes away. It would be a lot more convenient, many say, if everyone in the body of Christ could do the right thing the first time and keep doing it. After all, we are Christians, right?
Of course, real Christians can’t live up to that standard, so we have to decide whether to embrace the role of encouraging imperfect people who have a messy set of problems in their journey toward Christlikeness, or are we going to remove ourselves from the potential problem with a few words of judgment?
What’s been your experience?
One of the things that changed my view of these matters was my own struggles with Denise’s journey to Catholicism. I was struggling and failing. Everyone could see it. I made the same errors over and over. I confessed them to some of my brothers. I thank God for the people who came along side of me and helped me struggle to better place. It was hard for them to see me, a leader and pastor, stuck in a ditch of bitterness and despair.
Their ministry to me was especially valuable because other believers made the other choice: they wanted no part of my struggle and found ways- personally and at a distance- to let me know that my struggle wasn’t welcome. They were shocked that I wasn’t walking in victory, whatever that means. I never felt so excluded from my fellow Jesus follower as when I was struggling with what God was doing in my family and marriage.
It was a painful lesson. I learned that the struggles of growing Christians expose the spiritual condition of the Christians around them. Something as simple as a prayer request can become an indicator of whether someone loves you and is willing to struggle, pray and invest time with you, or instead chooses to pronounce you a loser who is an embarrassment to other Christians, especially them.
Scot Mcknight astutely points out that we have a lot of people taking the church very seriously these days, but ironically, many of them can’t find the church they need. Not because of a lack of entertaining programs and preaching, but because they are looking for a community where they can faithfully struggle alongside other strugglers in the discipleship journey.
Many of us feel that absence. We are parts of community, but we are afraid to confess our struggles. We’ve seen how others are written off, and we don’t want to risk the same kind of rejection. We want to be the kinds of persons who can pray for others as fellow pilgrims. We want to move past being the judges of those who are simply like us: broken people who need a hand.
Scripture has the Jesus shaped community in mind. We find it too risky. We want Christians to get it right the first time and keep on getting it right. When they fail, we don’t want the mess to intrude into our so-called “walk with Christ.” If we embrace a community where strugglers of every kind can find a home and help, we may be overwhelmed at what God is able to do.
The Internet Monk Archives 
CHristopher
I’m sorry she said ,”No.”
But…yay! that you risked enough to ask in the first place! And yay! that you’re getting a diversity of opinions on the matter!
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Really off-topic stuff — post on my blog and I’ll answer in detail — I won’t email you if don’t desire that, I promise. 🙂
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Ah, that joke of mine was a bit mean, Surfnetter. Living about six miles east of a fishing village, I know it’s a tough, dangerous job being a fisherman.
What other species do you catch, do they all look like that, and are they for human consumption?
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Bill C.,
Thank you too for your comment, brother. It is frustrating to me that the more Biblically sound churches, overall (theologically speaking), which I have been in have also been somewhat “stoic,” to a degree, in their handling of suffering.
Of course, the elders and lay leaders would say that suffering is a reality in the Christian life and that we should feel free to express it to God and (with wisdom and discernment) to our brothers and sisters in Christ.
In practice though, when I have really expressed deep suffering to leaders in these churches, I have not felt unconditionally accepted, in the sense that they were truly *entering into* my suffering, in an empathic way. Perhaps my perception has been wrong here. I hope so.
About being disabled and not able to drive, and how those factors can limit one’s employment and social opportunities, you are preaching to the choir! 🙂 I’m sitting here, in front of the computer, on a Friday night, when most of my married friends are enjoying time with their families, and many of my single friends are out having fun, in areas of the city and state in which I live, that I simply cannot get to, because of lack of transportation.
I could easily fall into self-pity (and sometimes do) if I think about my life situation too much, but I try to remember Jesus’s sufferings on the cross and how He plumbed the deepest depths of my suffering there– and went much, much further than I can even imagine…
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To all who encouraged me to ask the woman out,
I did, and she said, “No.” At least I tried though! 🙂
Possibly the more important development is that as a greater number of elders become involved in advising me (as to whether or not I should express my interest to her), it turns out that more than one of them thought it was fine for me to ask her! I was definitely encouraged by that development. Thanks again for your help!
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At least you knew which was which. Sometimes it gets hard to tell — especially by sense of smell. 🙂
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Good grief, that’s an ugly beast.
And the fish ain’t too good looking either 😉
(It’s all in jest, friend!)
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Surfnetter,
That’s one ghastly fish but at least it’s a monkfish and not a sea monk or a bishop fish.
Yuck, I thought catching burbot was bad enough!
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Martha — Thanks to you we catch those monsters all the time — make a lot of money with them.
Go here http://www.surfnetter.com/blog/?p=49
and scroll down to see me with one.
Leave a comment, and I’ll be able to email you directly. 🙂
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Thank you for sharing this. As I’ve struggled to understand why some fellow Christians have had such a difficult time with me becoming a missionary, I believe some of it is the perfection issue that you address. It’s become obvious that many of these feel that those in ministry (pastors, missionaries, etc.) not only must always be perfect now as they serve but can’t have an imperfect history of any kind.
Because my mother knows some of my actions when I was a child/teen/young adult were not very Christian (despite me already being a Christian at the time), I can sense that she feels I’m being deceptive to spread the Gospel now. Something like, “you did bad and were forgiven, but it disqualifies you from doing ministry now because I know how bad you were then.”
I guess it’s being long on memory, short on grace. And I’ve been guilty of it in other areas myself. Being the focus of it has made me realise that it’s not a healthy way to grow in Christ, either for myself or for others.
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There’s all kinds of non-canonical legendry about what happened to Mary, Martha and Lazarus; Mary seems to be conflated with Mary Magdalene, and Martha gets to be a dragon slayer 🙂
According to Wikipedia “According to Eastern Orthodox tradition, St Martha went to Cyprus with her siblings Mary and Lazarus, where Lazarus was appointed the first bishop of Kition. All three died in Cyprus.
According to one legend, St Martha left Judea after Jesus’s death, around AD 48, and went to Provence with her sister Mary (potentially Mary Magdalene) and her brother Lazarus. Martha first settled in Avignon (now in France), then went to Tarascon, where a monster, the Tarasque, was a constant threat to the population. Martha managed to tame the monster and eventually died in Tarascon, where she was buried. Her tomb is located in the crypt of the local Collegiate Church.”
That’s why the old holy picture cards show St. Martha with the cross and a dragon.
http://www.fisheaters.com/customstimeafterpentecost5a.html
“There was that time upon the river of Rhone, in a certain wood between Arles and Avignon, a great dragon, half beast and half fish, greater than an ox, longer than an horse, having teeth sharp as a sword, and horned on either side, head like a lion, tail like a serpent, and defended him with two wings on either side, and could not be beaten with cast of stones nor with other armour, and was as strong as twelve lions or bears; which dragon lay hiding and lurking in the river, and perished them that passed by and drowned ships. He came thither by sea from Galicia, and was engendered of Leviathan, which is a serpent of the water and is much wood, and of a beast called Bonacho, that is engendered in Galicia. And when he is pursued he casts out of his belly behind, his ordure, the space of an acre of land on them that follow him, and it is bright as glass, and what it toucheth it burneth as fire.
To whom Martha, at the prayer of the people, came into the wood, and found him eating a man. And she cast on him holy water, and showed to him the cross, which anon was overcome, and standing still as a sheep, she bound him with her own girdle, and it then was slain with spears and glaives of the people.”
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I may know how to segway (sp) but i can’t spell.
That’s ok, ’cause St. Catherine couldn’t read or write.
It’s alright to talk about pre-Reformation Catholic saints, isn’t it? I mean — who else was there back then …? 🙂
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Anna…I love your story about what the family from Bethany was doing to support themselves! I wonder about things like that too.
I ran across something online that was talking about Mary of Bethany pouring that oil on Jesus and Jesus saying that she was doing it as kind of an action relating to his impending death. But the author also said that kings were anointed with oil and that the aroma of the oil would stick around for days. The author say that Jesus may have smelled like that oil even as he rode into Jerusalem on the donkey. The aroma of kingship accompanied him wherever he went. The writer said that Mary knew that Jesus was the King of the universe (or something like that)and wanted the world to know it too. I liked that.
Lately, during my private prayer time, I ask God to let me learn from Mary and Martha of Bethany, Mary of Magdala and Mary the mother of Jesus if this is something that God would like for me to do. I figure three Marys and a Martha could help me if Jesus wants them to. For all the Protestants out there…Jesus is the one I pray to and the one that answers my prayers, but in trying to be a good Catholic, if Jesus wants some of the saints in heaven to be there for me too, who I am to complain? I leave it up to Jesus as to whether this is what he wants or not.
Hmmmm, Surfnetter, I am thinking about how I could segue to keep something about my comment on topic. Well, how about this…the three Marys and a Martha are surely Jesus-shaped folks and they surely struggled coming to understand just what Jesus would be accomplishing. (Don’t you just love it when Jesus tells Martha, “I am the resurrection and the life.”) So, between these saints who are on the other side of life and the saints online here helping one another, I have the bases covered.
If we Catholics keep this up (Anna, Martha, Surfnetter and me…and I know there are others too) Michael will make us form our own little group! Not really. It’s too interesting here with the great mix of people that we have. I think Michael gets a smile out of us Catholics at times, too.
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Martha,
I wasn’t happy about not knowing why Mary, Lazarus and Martha weren’t married. So I wrote my own answer, which I’ll share.
Lazarus was a businessman, but single because he lost his beloved wife and son in childbirth.
Martha had been betrothed to a jeweler in Jerusalem, but he was killed by a Roman soldier. He wasn’t quick enough to pay a bribe. So, since she inherited the shop, she was also a business person. (and very good at it.)
Mary had been allowed to listen and talk about religion with men her whole life and consequently none of the men nearby wanted a troublesome wife who came from a family with a very bad run of luck.
Also, Lazarus and Jesus had met when they were both 12 in Jerusalem. (The way I wrote it, Lazarus provided Our Lord with food and housing during the 3 days that his family was traveling and looking for him.)
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Martha,
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“Jesus AND the devil” ( big oopsy):-)
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Joanie — Yup — The “Red Birds” Imonk’s nemesis (I think)
Martha – “It is strange we don’t hear more about Lazarus, or the Widow’s Son, or the daughter of Jairus.”
I do believe these guys who penned the Gospels did it thoughtfully — prayerfully. Details are purposely included in some instances and almost completely lacking in others. Some of the most detailed accounts are during times when the author was not there — or there was nobody there but Jesus and the Father (the Agony in the Garden) or Jesus the devil (the desert temptations).
It is all done for effect. We struggle — there’s that topic again — with what’s written to get the meaning and God’s got us right where He wants us.
And Joanie — learn the art of the segway and you can get away with talking about almost anything, despite moderation. 🙂
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Thanks, Martha, for your research on the cardinals and the Pope. Interesting.
Surfnetter: St. Louis Cardinals…baseball team, right? (I think)
Thanks to Michael for letting me go “off topic.” Luckily, comments moderation was not on. 🙂
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Oh, we’ve descended to puns, have we? A true sign this is going too far 😉
It is strange we don’t hear more about Lazarus, or the Widow’s Son, or the daughter of Jairus. Though I suppose what can you tell from this side of what lies beyond? Either you will be believed, or people will say you’re crazy, nuts, lying, or pulling a con.
Like the parable of Dives – if they won’t believe Moses and the prophets, they won’t believe even if one returns from the grave.
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Martha – “Surfnetter – anyone know what Lazarus’s day job was?”
He probably wasn’t a fisherman. But talk about struggle — His loving Friend let’s him die when he healed others on the spot — even from long distances. Then he’s in the blessed sleep for four days after being deathly ill for a stretch. And then he gets to come back and deal with his crazy sisters and work for a living again — while the chief priests are plotting to kill him. John 12:10
“Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Matt. 11:29-30
Sounds like the yoke was on Lazarus, alright …. 🙂
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Coming a bit late to this discussion, but its uncanny that I have been meditating upon some of these same verses from Galatians the last few days.
A friend of mine has been caught up in an area of heavy sin lately, and another mutual friend of ours (if not Truly Reformed, then close enough) goes ballistic about it. He states that if he ever runs into our other friend, he is going to get into his face and let him have it. To which my thought is, “That’s exactly why you shouldn’t be the one to do it.” If you cannot do it gently, as the verse says, then you are probably going to end up alienating him even more. (The TR mindset fascinates me. While completely fun, loving, and gentle in most other areas of life, my friend turns into a Reformed robot when issues of religion and theology come up.)
Christopher, you and I are in a similar boat. I am the same age, also with disabilities. It is difficult to get people to understand how hard life can be when you cannot drive, and how that limits your employment and your social opportunities. My current church is much better about the situation than my last church, but still there are times when the wall comes up, and I feel like I am shouting at a deaf person to make them understand. I especially get tired of having to repeat the details of the situation for every other new person I meet at church.
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Maybe that’s why Our Lord waited to go to Bethany – give the poor guy a holiday from Martha, who was going to make him take a bath and burn his gravecloths before letting him set foot back inside the house, then the lectures about “I told you you’d get your death of cold, but did you listen to me? No! Who was right, hmmm?” 😉
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Surfnetter – anyone know what Lazarus’s day job was? Was Bethany inland? I get the impression (why, I can’t say) that the family was kind of well-off and that Lazarus wasn’t a fisherman, but I don’t know what he did.
And why wasn’t he married? Had to take care of his two spinster sisters, I guess. Maybe he was glad to die and get away from big sister bossy Martha – “I have to wait nearly a week in the grave? Oh, don’t rush on my account – it’s so quiet and peaceful here.” 🙂
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As to Cardinals:
“Cardinal: A dignitary of the Roman Church and counsellor of the pope.
It is the duty of the cardinals to assist the pope at the chief liturgical services known as capellæ papales, to distinguish them from the capellæ cardinaliciæ, at which the pope is not present; also to counsel him and aid in the government of the Church.
By the term cardinal (Cardinalis) was originally understood every priest permanently attached to a church, every clericus, either intitulatus or incardinatus. It became the usual designation of every priest belonging to a central or episcopal church, an ecclesiastical cardo (Lat. for hinge). Lastly it was equivalent to principalis, i.e., excellent, superior, and is so used by St. Augustine.
The origin, development, and modifications of this office will be treated as follows: I. Cardinal-priests; II. Cardinal-deacons; III. Cardinal-bishops”
So at present, the College of Cardinals (comprised of the Cardinal-Deacons, Cardinal-Priests, and Cardinal-Bishops) are the electors of the Pope because, as the Roman clergy, they have the right to elect the Bishop of Rome. (This is why anyone in foreign countries made cardinal who is not resident in Rome is named as titular to a Roman chapel.)
There could indeed be – though not at present – lay cardinals (either laymen or laywomen) as “counsellors of the pope” and “aids in the government”, though obviously they could not “assist at liturgical services”. I imagine this means they would also not have the right to vote in a Papal Conclave, since not Roman clergy = no right to nominate successor as Bishop of Rome.
No female Popes on the horizon, I’m afraid 😉
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JoanieD – that’s an interesting question. I went hunting through the online 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia, so here’s something stitched together on that topic:
“The title pope is at present employed solely to denote the Bishop of Rome, who, in virtue of his position as successor of St. Peter, is the chief pastor of the whole Church, the Vicar of Christ upon earth.
The supreme headship of the Church is, we have seen, annexed to the office of Roman bishop. The pope becomes chief pastor because he is Bishop of Rome: he does not become Bishop of Rome because he has been chosen to be head of the universal Church. Thus, an election to the papacy is, properly speaking, primarily an election to the local bishopric. The right to elect their bishop has ever belonged to the members of the Roman Church. They possess the prerogative of giving to the universal Church her chief pastor; they do not receive their bishop in virtue of his election by the universal Church.
The electoral college of cardinals exercise their office because they are the chief of the Roman clergy. Should the college of cardinals ever become extinct, the duty of choosing a supreme pastor would fall, not on the bishops assembled in council, but upon the remaining Roman clergy
According to certain ancient canons only cardinals should be chosen pope. However, Alexander III that “he, without any exception, is to be acknowledged as pontiff of the Universal Church who has been elected by two-thirds of the cardinals.” As late as 1378, Urban VI was chosen, though not a cardinal. A layman may also be elected pope, as was Celestine V (1294). Even the election of a married man would not be invalid (c. “Qui uxorem”, 19, caus. 33, Q. 5). Of course, the election of a heretic, schismatic, or female would be null and void.
Though since Urban VI (1378-89) none but a cardinal has been elected pope, no law reserves to the cardinals alone this right. Strictly speaking, any male Christian who has reached the use of reason can be chosen — not, however, a heretic, a schismatic, or a notorious simonist.
If the pope happens not to be a bishop, he must be consecrated at once and, according to immemorial tradition, by the Cardinal-Bishop of Ostia. If already a bishop, there takes place only the solemn benedictio or blessing. However, he enjoys full jurisdiction from the moment of his election.”
So a pope has to be a man, because it is only men who can receive the Sacrament of Orders. A layman (providing there are no impediments) can be elected pope, even a married man – providing he agrees to live chastely and put aside his wife. He must be ordained, then consecrated bishop, since the Papacy depends upon the Bishopric of Rome.
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And girls — I guarantee that St. Louis will have a female Cardinal before Rome does … 🙂
(im — they may need a bit of interpretation on that one ….)
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Martha and Joanie — The rooster call would be a really low blow. What I would do is hold up some of the day’s catch and say —
“Hey Pete — Do you love me more than these …?” 🙂
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Martha and Surfnetter…I am glad I came back to this topic to see if the Feed thing has been skipping giving me comments again and it did. I almost missed the fun. Martha…I love your comment about St. Peter, “If he’s inclined to get sticky about it, just do the “cock-a-doodle-doo†thing to remind him of his less than glorious hour.” Funny!
And, Martha, can I ask you a question? (I would ask you privately, but I don’t have your email address.) You confirmed what my priest said about there being nothing against women becoming cardinals of the Catholic Church. So…since the Pope is elected by the cardinals from among the cardinals…does that also mean a woman COULD become Pope? But gee, who would want to be Pope? I know our current Pope would have preferred to remain a “lowly” cardinal and out of the “business” of having to be Pope.
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Martha — “As regards Purgatory – as a fisherman, you’ve got an in with St. Peter …”
As I recall, there were a few fishermen in the “Inner Circle.” Just thought of a connection between your patron Saint and mine — Martha cleaned up messes she did not make and fishermen harvest a field they did not plant.
And if Lazarus was a fisherman, it’s a sure bet she didn’t let him in the house with his work clothes on. 🙂
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there’s some good stuff here on this thread…
it’s nice to be reminded that in the midst of my many struggles (most of which are with the hypocrisy of Christians), that i have a church that leaves room for people to struggle. there is a small percentage of people in our church who aren’t comfortable with others struggling with sin, doubt, etc., and those people can be very vocal. most of those who can’t handle other people struggling are those who can’t admit that they actually have things they need to struggle with. they really just want to pretend that everything is ok.
special shout out to my pastor who lets me question our denomination, some of the things he says in his sermons, etc. it’s really amazing that he welcomes my voice and my opinions–especially since my little journey/crisis of denomination might lead me somewhere else. in fact, his response to me might just be part of what helps me stay.
and, another even bigger shout out to my husband, who lets me talk endlessly about theology. he is hanging in there & letting me work through some of this stuff. when he disagrees with my take on something, he does so with grace and humility. he rocks. i can’t imagine being married to a man who couldn’t handle a wife struggling and asking questions.
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Christopher,
There is more to support than just money. As far as I am concerned, emotional caring is more valuable than rubies.
You don’t know how much at times, I’d love to have someone who cares when I get home etc.
Since you are not called to the single life, like I am, I would go for it and risk the heartbreak.
(If you want a good counselor, may I suggest the advice columnist Carolyn Hax. I read her daily, and she is very sensible.)
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Chris,
My wife supported me for a few years early in our marriage, while I began a difficult career via unpaid internships, and it was sometimes difficult for me ego, but it laid the foundation that now allows her, 7 years later, to stay home with our baby and write her novel.
Marriage takes a lifetime. You don’t have to have it all figured out before you make yourself known.
BTW, my wife also denied my interest 3 times before she finally agreed to date me. 54 days later, we were engaged.
Your heavenly father cares for the birds of the air and the flowers of the field, how much more you and your flower?
Blessings,
Matt
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Terri,
Thank you for your concern about my situation, my sister in Christ. Perhaps I should explain more about the thinking of everyone involved in the matter. That might be helpful.
The elders of my church believe that the Bible teaches a husband’s primary responsibility, before God, to provide for his wife and family. As I don’t currently have a job and *do* have some hurdles to overcome in that area, the main elder from whom I am getting counsel believes it to be unwise that I would initiate anything with this woman. In his view, it could be setting both her and me up for heartbreak, if after months or even years of our being in a courtship/relationship, I am still not able to find a job, and she and I are not able to progress toward marriage. I understand that concern. I am concerned myself.
The aforementioned elder and I are currently widening the conversation to include the other elders (“wisdom in a multitude of counselors”). I do *not* want to hurt this sister in Christ, in whom I am interested, in any way, shape, or form.
My desire to provide for a wife has little (I won’t say “nothing,” because I know my own heart too well) to do with being prideful. It has more to do with my being a Christian man who wants to live obediently (as well as I can) to the Bible’s teaching and principles, as I understand them.
I don’t believe that I should have to rely on myself alone to get back and forth to a job– actually, as a man with a disability, I *can’t* rely on myself alone! 🙂 I will probably at least have to rely on the not-so-great bus system of the city in which I live. I would *like* to have more help from people in the church, as far as getting to and from a job (and simply *finding* a job), but that is not always easy to navigate, with other people already having their own jobs and lives. The elders and I are going to explore possibilities in that area though.
Thank you again for your concern about my situation. There is much wisdom in your words. A wife *could* help me in many ways which I don’t currently have. The question with which I am grappling is, do I head down that road with a woman, not knowing how, or even if, I will be able to provide for her and a possible family at a future point? My desire is there to provide, and I will work toward the reality… but do I remain single in the meantime? At 35, almost 36, it is very difficult, but I just want to do what is right.
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Still a chance to escape as long as I’m living on a completely different continent, you mean 😉
As regards Purgatory – as a fisherman, you’ve got an in with St. Peter. If he’s inclined to get sticky about it, just do the “cock-a-doodle-doo” thing to remind him of his less than glorious hour. Me, I’m lighting candles in front of St. Nicholas of Tolentine’s statue in our local Augustinian friary church (waves to Martin Luther – hey, Marty, your brothers in religion are still going strong, you’ll be glad to hear!) so I reckon we’ve both got a chance of squeaking through.
Plus, if we parade our ignorance egregriously enough on here, we might provoke the good Reformed folk into praying for our salvation, which is all good – preferably while using Alan’s rosaries – er, I meant, non-denominational ecumenical prayer beads 🙂
Good godly Christian folk! When storming Heaven on behalf of the benighted Papists, be sure to use Alan Creech’s prayer beads to keep track of your petitions! In fact, buy two sets – one for me, one for Surfnetter!
We steer enough business his way, I think we’re due kickback in the form of lighting candles for us, a decade or two of the Glorious Mysteries, maybe even the Nine First Fridays – whaddya say, Alan? 😉
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Surfnetter, I took Martha as my confirmation saint because even at age twelve, I knew I was sorely in need of the domestic virtues (I could handle the Mary part of sitting at the feet while someone else toiled in the kitchen no bother) 😉
St. Martha must have mellowed out an awful lot, because I’m still waiting for the “too busy cooking and cleaning” influence to kick in (motto: if the dirt isn’t visible, it doesn’t exist).
Though, being the Eldest *and* Eldest Daughter myself, I can see a lot in common with Martha, especially in her dealings with Mary and Jesus – “Hey, Lord, you do know that after three days in the tomb, there’s going to be an awful stink, right? Okay, don’t blame me when you all start retching and fainting when you open this grave up” and the “I know that!” response she gave in regard to the resurrection of the dead.
Oh, yeah: Big Sisters. Do as we tell you, and nobody has to get hurt 🙂
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Thank you, IM, for this and other recent posts. You can only imagine how relevant to my own life these are. I grew up in an independent Baptist church, always the good kid, and just like a good evangelical, I had plenty of my own self-righteous and judgmental views of others. What was I to do when confronted with my own issues with sexuality? To whom does a confused teenager, alone and afraid, turn when the mere thought of such “unforgivable sin” was basically anathema to the church and its leaders, and even myself? I can only venture to guess how different my life would have been if there had been some open channel to express my fears and my struggles back then, rather than hold it all in until I went off the deep end in graduate school. Now as an adult, I’m forced to deal with the regret of a decade-long addiction that has effectively robbed me of my dreams. All in God’s sovereignty, yes, but that doesn’t necessarily make me feel much better about it. I will say, however, that my current community of faith and growing understanding of the gospel have been hugely important parts in dealing with my own problems, and I can’t begin to express how critical community and confession are to spiritual restoration and health.
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The Martha and Surfnetter banter has me in stitches… appealing both to the Irish and onetime Long Islander in me all at once!
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“Whichever of us gets to Purgatory first, save a spot for the other, okay?”
Purgatory …? Martha, you flatter me …. lol
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Yes Martha — we are relieved to know that there still is a chance. 🙂
And of your sister Mary and your brother Lazarus — does Mary ever help with the housework? And did Lazarus ever recover from his best friend (Jesus, of course) letting him lay dead for half a week, while He unhesitatingly healed everyone else right away …? 🙂
(we’re still on topic, im 🙂 )
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Surfnetter, I happily abide contentedly in blessed singleness (and all the men in the world breathe a sigh of relief) 🙂
Whichever of us gets to Purgatory first, save a spot for the other, okay?
St. Catherine: the youngest of 25 children, a laywoman (despite depictions of her in the habit, she was a Tertiary, not a nun), who lived at home looking after her mother – just another woman kept down by the mean old Catholic Church 😉
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Martha — “One questions whether Catherine’s brother would have relished the admonitions of his saintly sister, had he known what we learn through her
biographer: that, feeling the temporal prosperity of her family to be a snare to them, she had earnestly prayed that they might fall into poverty.
The petition was promptly granted: worldly losses …”
Perhaps the good Saint from Sienna has been acting globally of late … 🙂
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Ah, Martha — you have such a long memory. And your lovely Irish brogue tickles me spirit! 🙂
I would take communion with you anytime. Are you married ..?
I only ask in the spirit of St. Catherine, for — as you most assuredly know — she would never personally — nor would she ever — advocate avoiding the good struggle in the name of God and His Glory. 🙂
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(not sure if this is a thread hi-jack or off-topic…though it does seem to be related to the post in some sense)
Christopher
I think it is honorable that you are trying to honor God in your relationship with your church and in any future relationship with this woman.
I must admit that It is hard for me to understand the situation you’re in for several reasons:
1. It seems as if your love life should be an area which is not subject to the musings and leading of others, in so much that it is not sinful or causing harm to your church body. How far should the authority of a church’s leadership reach? Should they be able to decide what kind of job you can have? Where you can live? How much money you should make?
Perhaps I am just a mean, untrusting person and my perspective is skewed, but these seem like areas which are outside the realm of authority for a church.
2. Complementarianism/Egalitarianism aside…marriage is a partnership. Even in strict comp. marriages, the only reason it works is because it is made up of two people working together. The husband can’t devote his time and energy to “providing” without a wife to support him. The wife, either by tending the home fires, or helping him in his work, is essential to things working.
You may have some limitations that a future wife will be able to help you with, which in turn will put you in a better position to be able to provide for your family. If you were married, and had someone who could help you with reliable transportation, maybe by dropping you off, or picking you up, or maybe by having a new extended family with in-laws who could help in that way…all of a sudden you would have new opportunities before you.
3. The idea that you should “have it all together” before you begin pursuing a relationship, is a lot like telling people they need to get their lives straight before they come to God. You’ll never get there, and in the meantime you might miss many chances for happiness.
I don’t know….it seems like the ideas about being sure you have something to offer, financially…..and the idea that you must not depend on anybody but yourself to do it….seem to be somewhat prideful. I don’t mean to be hurtful by saying that. It just seems like the only thing holding you back is something close to shame…shame that you might not be able to provide in the way you want to.
That makes my heart hurt….which is probably why I have taken over imonk’s comment thread.
A loving home is more glorifying to God than any job you might ever hold. God does not measure the externals of our relationships…who does what and when.
It is glorifying to God to live in the Christian freedom he bought for us, to rest in the peace He provided for us.
May you do the same.
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Personal Confession has kept me in the church. (Yes, we Lutherans still have it, although stripped of the pennance and the necessity of the enumeration of sins.) Even when friends are unable to help me shoulder the burden of my own crap,I know that I can go to the pastor, confess and hear Christ’s forgiveness applied to me and my situation. This has helped me keep sane, and kept me from despairing to the point of abandoning the church altogether. We also have a public confession of sins before every worship service. Although both forms of confession are no guarantee that the church will envision itself as a “community of strugglers ” it goes a long way toward fostering that attitude, and if the Pastor is doing his job, his sermons will never let us forget that fact.
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I didn’t get *around* to thanking you then (Anna A), I meant to write… ok, it’s too late for me to be typing!
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Terri and John,
Thank you so much for your encouragement. (Thank you too, Anna A– I remember you encouraging me at another time when I wrote about these struggles, and I didn’t get to thanking you then.) This is a very hard situation for me. As a member of my church, I have willingly put myself under the leadership and counsel of the elders. I want to honor their leadership and submit to it– but I’m just not sure that I should in this case. Even as I write that, it sounds as if I am pleading for my own special exception to Hebrews 13:17, but I can’t help but think that at certain times, there *are* exceptions…
As a complementarian (which I know can be a less popular stance among many readers of this blog), I do believe that normatively, it is ultimately the man’s call and responsibility before God to provide for his wife physically, spiritually, and emotionally. I do want to work– to glorify God, for my own good, and to provide for a future wife. However, given my disability and my inability to drive, I do face certain challenges which may not be overcome in a very short time. Hopefully so, prayerfully and actively, but it may be a longer process.
In the meantime, I do not sense that the Lord has designed me for singleness, and with each passing year, the struggle does not become easier. I know that I really like this woman, and I have a good idea that it may become more than “like!” 🙂 Who knows– she may not even reciprocate. If I don’t ask her though, I will never know…. so, I probably will (ask, that is)!
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Ah, clarification – thanks for that, people!
Reminds me of the joke about the woman who went to confession, and as soon as she came out of church, met an enemy of hers who resumed the quarrel they’d had; the first woman wanted to get stuck in but had to bridle her tongue, but retorted “I’m in a state of grace now, but just you wait, Bridie Murphy – I won’t always be in a state of grace!” 🙂
Surfnetter, I do love you. And that’s all thanks to Michael, since your views on receiving Communion are, um, pushing the envelope for this Pharisee. The Internet Monk – reconciling Roman Catholics since 19–! 😉
As to St. Catherine, I was amused by this heading to one of her Letters from an online copy of a 1905 translation:
“One questions whether Catherine’s brother would have relished the admonitions of his saintly sister, had he known what we learn through her
biographer: that, feeling the temporal prosperity of her family to be a snare to them, she had earnestly prayed that they might fall into poverty.
The petition was promptly granted: worldly losses, and the departure of two of the brothers for Florence, followed upon the Sienese Revolution of
1368. Apparently, family misunderstandings accompanied these readjustments.”
Not really prosperity gospel/God wants us all to be rich, rich I’m telling you! is it?
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Finding a good confessor is probably one of the most important things you can do as a Catholic. It’s really the only way to learn our religion properly; most confessors I’ve gone to have been sleepy or clinical and gave generic pennances, but every once in awhile you’ll find a priest who takes confession seriously – then you’re able to see how glimpse how deep and to the heart of us this religion thing actually goes.
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PatrickW, I agree with Anna A and Grateful for Graces. I actually go to an Opus Dei priest who listens to confessions about 4 hours a day, 4 days a week and gives meaningful penance and spiritual direction at the same time. The sacrament is in a traditional confessional but still very personal, though anonymous. That’s one of the nice things about being Catholic, you can go to any priest, anywhere for confession. It just has to be in person, not over the internet or by email to receive absolution. Our Bishop even hears confessions sometimes. Blessings, AnneG in NC
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I have found Larry Crabb’s writings very helpful in learning to grow in grace and embrace a community of broken people. These two books were amazing for me:
Connecting
The Safest Place On Earth
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You keep writing some of the most incisive understandings and insights into the heart of what it means to be the church. I praise God for you.
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just to encourage you that it can happen…even up here in Northern Vermont…it took 40 years but we see what imonk is talking about actually happening…don’t give up…Jesus will connect the dots for you…we have a small “band of brothers”…4 couples…one just called for prayer…her sister is at Dartmouth Hospital and been given 1 week to live…unless Jesus steps in…they are on the way to Dartmouth…gotta go find my wife…and pray…
blessings in your journey
philip
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PatrickW and Curtis,
I know exactly what you mean. Our one priest always gives the penance “Go do something nice for someone.” I used to mentally roll my eyes at this; however, I finally started to take this penance seriously. Once I did, I realized it required much more from me than it appeared on the surface. I had to actually find someone in need, plan a charitable act toward him/her and do it with grace.
PatrickW, have you ever asked your priests for a concrete penance? Maybe if they knew you’d find it of benefit, they would consider it. (Tell them you want to walk in victory.)
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PatrickW,
You very accurately describe my experience as well, except my penance is always to be more thankful. I must come across as dour. I’m in a one-parish-town and I’ve confessed to several of the priests and it’s always the same. It’s not terrible advice, and I try to carry it out, but I’d prefer something more concrete and finite. “Go spend 5 minutes in prayer, thanking God for all the blessings in your life” would be an ideal variant.
Martha:
What the other team calls “walking in victory”, we call “preserving one’s baptismal innocence” or “persevering in a state of sanctifying grace”. You tell me which would make a better country-western song title?
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PatrickW
Have you tried going to another parish for confession? Many people tend to do that, and I like using some Benedictines for confession when I go on retreat.
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Martha, you can’t walk in victory without also participating in potluck suppers. Ironically, it is well nigh impossible to walk in victory if your religion emphasizes participating in potluck suppers.
After a rousing sermon, a pastor we know used to admonish his congregation after the benediction, “Don’t lose the victory in the parking lot!”
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The idea of the perfect christian, the christian that is all of a sudden transformed is very foreign to me. I never bought into the theology that once one accepts Jesus as savior everything would be alright because Jesus covers up the bad.
I see it more as a starting point. And those serious minded christians I know – those not so much cloaked in faith but trying to grow in faith – are the ones I turn to for support – not the ones who tote faith around for all to see and in their minds eye must behave a particular way.
Michael – since starting my walk I’ve had to take a deep look at myself, my faults, my shortcomings, and my inability sometimes to keep from slipping into old habits. So I suffer, and I am at war with myself at times, and I grow, and I fail. But the point for me is that with God’s help I keep trying and I make a little headway each time.
From my standpoint, not going through trials or denial thereof, seems more an action of vainglory. And those who turn away from others who are struggling, or do not wish to reveal that they too struggle because others might perceive them as being somewat less christian have missed the point entirely.
My thoughts…
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I am probably one of the few RC converts who actually looked forward to confession. Suffice to say I had a LOT to unload the first time, and even now the load stays heavy.
What’s the problem? Sin is serious business and I think the forgiveness of it should be equally serious. Both the priests in my parish regard the sacrament as a kind of buddy-chat. There is no chance to confess anonymously, and they never give me any penance. I’m just told “try to do better” and sent on my way.
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Christopher Lake:
Sorry you got lousy counsel. Welcome to the club! There is nothing in Scripture that says you have to have a job before you can talk to someone or love someone. Talk to the woman. Ask her out. Take her flowers, or whatever. Faint heart never won fair lady. 🙂
As for me, I’m one of those folks who takes church seriously and for that reason really can’t find one that I and my family need, or that seems to need my abilities and gifts. So many are just Christian infotainment. We’ve been looking for almost a year. Our last church said all the right things, but treated our small group of very honest and open struggling believers as misfits and ultimately disbanded us in favor of a new “program” to build “community,” even though that’s what we were really starting to build. Go figure.
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Pre-Reformation as well, Martha. What that blessed child reported that she heard from the Father shaped the psyche of an entire civilization.
But the imagery of St. Catherine’s Bridge of the Virtue of Christ laid out for us to walk on — stretched out from earth to Heaven — going over the river of the world culture is giving me an internal foundation to walk on.
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Rob,
Just as Christopher has said, there are the same problems in the Catholic Church as there is in evangelical Christianity. I like being Catholic because the theology that I developed matches closely with Catholic theology. BUT, there is, at least where I have been recently, the same community problems.
Martha, “potluck supper” is just when everyone brings the best dish that they make, and everyone shares a meal. In Southern Baptist areas, it tends to be lunch or supper on the church grounds. (At least you didn’t ask about “covered dish meals”. GRIN. They are the same thing, except the term is only used in the Southeastern part of the US. You can imagine what happened when a women didn’t know what it was. She brought a covered dish (but empty.)
“Walking in victory” is always being in the triumph part of your faith. Not very practical, nor have I seen anything similar in Catholicism.
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Bob, thanks for that – it really did help. I wondered if there was an actual altar, because I was aware of the (early) distinction between the “altar” (bad Romish perversion of re-sacrificing Christ over and over in every Mass!) versus “table”, and I was intrigued to hear “altar” in the context of a Baptist church.
Now I just need to understand “walking in victory” and “potluck suppers” and I’m sorted 🙂
“I’ve been reading the Dialogue of St. Catherine of Sienna.”
Whoa – careful there, Surfnetter, you’re sounding dangerously orthodox, not to mention practically pre-Vatican II 😉
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I learned that the struggles of growing Christians expose the spiritual condition of the Christians around them.
You can learn quite a lot about others by opening up. I’m continually fascinated by the responses – or lack thereof.
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I spoke on Galatians 4:19 at a Campus Crusade meeting, at my alma mater where I was also on staff for a short time, a few months ago. That verse is an arrow in my heart concerning myself and younger believers, especially in the campus ministry setting where the push for everyone to “do ministry” and be a leader is so strong and where socialization/small talk/parties often takes the place of deep community and fellowship (though both are necessary, I believe).
I find the heart of Paul, concerning people, amazing. How he fights for His people, just like Jesus fought for His people. Paul comes off like a madman to me when he confronts false doctrine in his people, as though he would do anything it took for his people to understand the Gospel purely and be set free from anything that would oppose the Gospel and hurt the people:
“But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ” 2 Corinthians 11:3
In studying the Galatians passage, I found this helpful nugget concerning the word “perplexed in v.20. Paul states “I wish I could be present with you now and change my tone, for I am perplexed about you (ESV).”
In Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament, the note says that Paul literally means ““I am puzzled how to deal with you; how to find entrance to your hearts.â€
I love Paul for this. He is so concerned for his people. I pray to become like Paul in dealing with members of my community, seeking a way into people’s hearts, full of truth and grace…..because it matters, and because this is what I need to. Give me the strugglers, and may the struggle be with the Gospel.
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I am involved with a Renovare Spiritual Formation group. It is interdemoninational with Roman Catholics and Protestant members. One young women in the group confessed her struggle to believe and all the doubt she has. She said ‘something is wrong with me. Others just accept and it is easy for them.’ I told her that her struggle and doubt was what was right with her. We are called to the struggle. Doubt is a part of Sprirtual growth.
I have learned a new word from this blog I like, ‘churchianity’. So many are caught up in this and have no doubt. Their church has all the amswers. We are not called to the answers or any particular religious institution that claims to ‘know it all’. We are called by God to find Him and live for Him. Churches can help or hinder or hurt in our search. The Church whatever it is is NOT God.
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I’ve been reading the Dialogue of St. Catherine of Sienna. Nothing has helped me understand my struggle like this has. It might just be me, since I was very nearly completely insulated from virtue-seeking spirituality throughout my childhood.
What I’m finding is that even though I believe in all Jesus and the Church teaches, I can’t seem to shake the tendency to shirk the inherent goodness that the Spirit of God seeks to engender. The “Bridge” made of virtue that St. Catherine speaks about — which is Jesus Himself — which, begins with three steps, is helping me to understand the 12-Steps of AA and Al Anon in a way I never could before.
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I think all of us Christians (I almost said “real” Christians) are looking for a city whose builder and maker is God. And, yes, while we will find it in the New Jerusalem one day, I also think that in one sense it is right here and right now, and we are it. The city whose builder and maker is God. To extend the metaphor, there are a lot of temporary visitors who come and then go, and a lot of other folks who are looking for something else entirely, but we — the city — recognize the residents when we encounter each other.
This blog, I think, is part of that city.
For Martha, “altar” to non-Catholics (and, yes, I speak for all non-Catholics…not) means basically “a place of prayer” or “a place of getting real with God and pouring out your heart to Him so that He can begin the healing process in you” and it usually means “the front of the church” that you get up out of your pew and walk to when the pastor gives the “invitation” at the end of the weekly sermon on Sunday morning, where, if you are a Baptist, you will be met by a deacon who may take you into a side room so that you can pour out your heart to him (the deacon) and he can pray with you that you will discover that God is able and sufficient to meet your needs and solve every problem. Or an altar can be your private prayer-closet or any place of surrender to God where you can be authentically you and the facade that you wear for others is stripped away.
I hope someone else can put the concept of “altar” into better words because I’m doing a very poor job here.
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Me too. I found AA much more conducive to my spiritual growth than “church.” Then I converted to RCC. But the struggles continued.
Then I discovered the Cross. And realized how the evangelical message is one of ineffective cheap grace.
Now in Vietnam I am surrounded by people who evidence far more fruit of the spirit than I ever saw in the USA. I’m still trying to figure that out, but I have learned more about living life here from Asian sources than I ever learned there.
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Christopher
Talk to the woman! Love is between two people who care about each other, not two people plus a body of elders.
It should be her choice to decide if she is interested in your affection. She is obviously a self-sufficient woman with some brains, fully capable of understanding the situation and deciding if a relationship with you is something she is interested in…complications and all.
There’s no such thing as a perfect time to fall in love and get married….only the perfect attitude about committing yourself to each other with eyes wide open about what life may hold.
Ok….taking my dear Abby hat off now.
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trooper…just want you to know that I LOVE the questions that you posed. I don’t have the answers, but the questions are great!
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I’m going to talk in broad stereotypes here, so please forgive me.
The Evangelical Church has become a church whose sole gospel is “Jesus came to die for your sins so that you could go to heaven. When you accept Christ as Saviour, all of your sins become forgiven, and shortly thereafter you enter a state of sanctification, where your life is essentially perfect and you don’t struggle with anything meaningful. You then go out into the world to get other people saved in the same manner.”
I grew up in the Baptist Church. I was never taught about discipleship, or accountability, or any of the bits where Jesus promises that it gets harder, or any of the parts in Acts where the church banded together.
Some of this may, possibly, come out of the entire Protestant idea that if you’re a good Christian, then you’re spending hours in bible study by yourself, memorizing verses and preparing yourself to dazzle nonbelievers with your knowledge of scripture.
Much of what Paul told the churches has been generalized, or used to support vague overstatements that back up whatever it was that the preacher wanted to focus his three points on this week. The Disciple has become an unreality… we assume that it’s talking about people in ministry, because the most that the laity are expected to aspire to is perhaps becoming elders.
Even in our church (Nazarene, with strong Missional/Emergent elements), while people will certainly be there for you in your struggles (on sunday, at the altar), there’s a certain lack of connectedness between services. I try to talk to people about the idea of Community, of things like New Monasticism, of Discipleship, but they only point out how these things didn’t work when secular people tried them. So our model for anything is how normal people do things…not how disciples of Christ invest in them.
So much of the bible becomes about people that lived 2000 years ago, and how different they were than us, and how we can’t be like them, but we still have to take the principles of Jesus and somehow interpret them into something which has meaning today.
I think that after I finish my current Sunday School class on Velvet Elvis, I’m going to begin a new class out of “The Ragamuffin Gospel”. Not entirely sure where that will go, but just as VE gave them room to ask questions, maybe RG will give them room to begin to really struggle with Grace, and the invitation of Christ to fail, and fail repeatedly, and grandly.
My pastor is trying to get the Nazarene Church to push a movement at the next General Assembly dealing directly with failure, and how failure is incredibly necessary for Christian growth. We’ll see how successful that is…I can only pray that God gets behind it and moves through it, and that we have faith that He can, and will.
But how can we accept healing and growth if we refuse to accept failure?
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Rob, agreement with what Christopher said.
The one good thing about being Catholic (well, not *the* one good thing) is the sacrament of Penance (or Reconciliation, as I should be calling it).
It acknowledges that yeah, you’re going to trip over your own two feet and land on your backside, and you’re going to do this not once, not twice, but – um, remember that “seventy times seven” bit? Yeah, that many – so, don’t be discouraged but don’t stop trying. Everybody needs to go to confession (even the Pope!) and we’re not going to stop having to try until we’re on our deathbeds. “Do not despair; one of the thieves was saved. Do not presume; one of the thieves was damned.”
Veering off on a wild tangent here, but what do certain words mean to you guys? I ask because Michael mentioned “altar” above, and I know what associations that triggers in me, but what does it mean to non-Catholics?
And what *is* “walking in victory”? It’s a phrase I’ve seen before, and I have no idea what it means. Also, do Baptists (of whatever stripe) or these new-fangled megachurches have liturgical dance, and if not, how were you so lucky to avoid *that*, I’m begging you to tell?
(Yes, Michael is trying to talk about the struggles of santification, and I’m asking about trivia. See what I mean about having to keep trying?) 😉
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But be forwarned…you won’t find the American Jesus here.
No, you won’t. You’ll find a rough, bawdy and profane bunch who’ve been dealt such a blow by their addictions that they no longer care to maintain the pretense of perfection. They’ve taught me a lot about what it means to be a human being; something the church never seemed to go out of its way to do.
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…..i am discovering that in AA i am recieving what i need spiritually in real time with surgical precision…at times it can almost be un-nerving as God speaks to me Directly through the struggles of other AA”s…and im not talking about struggling with taking a drink anymore..Im talking about living Life on Life”s terms as it unfolds and dealing DAILY with my character defects..you know..real life stuff..We learn quickly in AA that this is impossible without the intervention of a Higher Power…i”ve found that the God i see in AA has a different face from the one i see in church and that His diciples are in frequent life struggles and backslide often..The Jesus of AA sometimes smells bad and his hands are dirty..He does”nt always comb His hair and He walks with a limp…But if your looking for authentic community where you can actually witness Christ being formed in someone then AA is the church for you…But be forwarned…you won’t find the American Jesus here.
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Rob,
I don’t know if this will help you at all (it *may* only frustrate you more), but over ten years ago, I was a Roman Catholic and (as I still am today) a man with a physical disability (Cerebral Palsy). I also have a friend who is blind who used to be Roman Catholic. Neither he nor I had a more loving, understanding experience in the RCC than we have had in evangelical and/or Reformed circles.
The RCC wasn’t necessarily much *worse,* when it came to treating disabled people as full human beings, who would like to have as full lives as is possible– but I don’t remember the Church as being much *better* with “us” than evangelical or Reformed churches have been.
I honestly think that professing Christian churches, period, for the most part (or maybe I should just say, the churches of my experience) simply don’t know what to *do* with disabled people and their unique struggles, other than congratulate us for being “inspiring”… while not necessarily being willing to get down in the trenches and actually *help* us with practical things like job-hunting. My blind friend’s church has actively helped him more than my church has for me at present… but we both experience frustration with the counsel which we receive. Maybe it’s just the seemingly inevitable gulf in understanding between able-bodied and disabled people, Christian *and* non-Christian. Sigh…
Having written all of this, I do want to say that I love my church body, and I will not leave it/them. The Gospel is being preached, souls are being saved, lives are being transformed, and it is all glorious to see and hear. I wish that my brothers and sisters “heard” and “understood” me more, but they are still sinners, as I am… In that light, I don’t want to be *too* harsh on them. I would much rather be with them than without them, generally speaking, in my life.
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For some reason that I can’t exactly elucidate these kinds of posts raise an irrational anger in me.
Not at the poster (Mr. Spencer) but at the church which not only fails but revels in the failure.
See? Does that even make any sense to anyone besides me?
Maybe it’s one of the reason why I am being drawn to the RCC.
The agenda is pretty open and giant megaplex shiny buildings don’t seem to be the object.
Even thought the most beautiful church buildings seem to be Catholic there is a different feel for why they are the way they are.
I’m rambling.
I guess it pisses me off that there are all these resources out there. Literally millions of people and trillions of dollars and we fritter it away on trivialities and baubles.
I don’t attend “church”. Probably never will again in my life.
My struggles?
I have a couple of friends and I have many nightmares.
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I can confess my struggles to at least certain people in my church… but the reactions aren’t necessarily always what I would hope.
A case in point: Many of you may have already read these details about me, but for those who haven’t, I am a 35-year-old man with a college degree and a physical disability which prevents me from driving. I have experienced much frustration in finding employment– in even just finding a full-time, paying job to which I can travel back and forth on public transit.
About the confession of my struggles within the church body, there is a woman in my church whom I would *love* to express interest in (actually express it *to her,* that is), but I am being counseled not to do so until I find a job. The woman already has a full-time job and her own apartment, but the counsel I am receiving is still the same.
Now, I can confess my struggles with this situation to people in my church– I have done so– but what am I to do with this counsel? In many ways, it seems wise… but I am frustrated, because I *want* to work, I *want* to find a Godly woman (indeed, it seems I have found one, but…), and I am not getting any younger here. All of this is to say, merely being *able* to confess one’s struggles within a church body is good, but it is only part of the solution.
Having a body which weeps with those who weep, and which bands together to actively, practically *help* those who are struggling (as in, helping a man to find employment, so that man may be able to marry) is the body of Christ *acting like* the body of Christ. I long to see more of it. I pray for it.
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Thanks for sharing, Michael. I’m at a wierd strugging point.. having finally become comfortable with my theology (long story), I’m trying to find people to talk about boring stuff, like why do I watch too much TV? am i more pure sexually – because of Jesus, or am I just getting old? why don’t i volunteer at the food shelter? now that I’ve helped my kids find the Church, how do I help them know why that’s important? why am i mad that gas just went up 30 cents, when thousands of folks aren’t eating, drinking clean water, ETC ETC?! Grant, I’m not quite sure what unregeneration means, but is there a sense in your theology that it all gets better after you become a Christian. Because, I’m trying to wrangle with the idea that it all becomes harder, and worse.
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I am blessed with a community of believers that is open and loving, even after I have (repeatedly) shared my (repeated) struggles. Many of my friends have noted that Christians are willing to open up after the fact – praise requests for victory, testimonies of God’s delivering power, etc. – far more often than during.
Still, too often I feel as if my inability to walk in victory is a sure sign of my unregeneration, and I don’t know if the Church is often portraying otherwise.
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I’m stunned that you can’t even confess some of the most basic human struggles among Christians.
The reaction of a lot of Christians to the fact that AA is a more Jesus shaped environment for a lot of strugglers than the church is instructive.
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I moved back to my old hometown almost a year ago. I still haven’t found that place where I can confess my struggles. It is getting to the point where I might just go out into a field and scream them out.
Part of that struggle is letting go of the myth of getting it right the first time and every time. That has become so ingrained in my being that it tortures me. I hate myself for my failures, even while I know that God loves me despite them. I would love to tell these things to someone here, but I fear I would get brushed off, or just told to pray some more, or read my Bible some more. I could certainly do those things — and have — yet the struggles remain. What I need is not someone to judge me, but to simply listen.
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My denomination, Church of the Nazarene, has much the same revivalist mentality that you speak of. Our denomination is struggling with the fact that despite our affirmation of John Wesley’s “Christian Perfection”, we aren’t perfect, for even Jesus said, “Why do you call me good?”
The community people are seeking is I think part of the reason why the emerging/emergent/missional church movement has such a presence, despite its lack of numbers. Community is a need we all have.
Seth Godin, in “Tribes”, speaks that we all move in tribes, and as the internet and high-tech media replace the physical community of old, they do not replace the human need of community.
The difficulty is, of course, that in true community, one is open and vulnerable, which is definitely not a comfortable position for the “I can stand on my own two feed” American mentality. Other people’s struggles all too often remind us of our own struggles, which we often try to bury in self-righteousness, work, busyness, or whatever other avoidance method we find convenient. This is what I seek, and what I seek to make in my church. With lots of prayer, and by the strength and grace of God who has and will continue to surround us with those that we need, we can all make the community we need.
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