NOTE: Many of today’s commenters should go to New Reformation Press and buy that “Weak On Sanctification” shirt. You’d look good in it.
Some texts related to being “connected” to Jesus in salvation by faith and in growing as disciples into Christlikeness.
Justification by grace, Kingdom discipleship and growth following. No “”Jesus disconnect here”:
Colossians 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. 13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
A Detailed description of a Christlike character. No “Jesus disconnect” here:
Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you:….. seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. …..
12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. 14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. ….17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Coming to know Christ is followed by imitating Jesus Christ. No “disconnect” here:
I Thessalonians 1: 2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, 3 remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake. 6 And you became imitators of us and of the Lord…
The purpose of the ministers who serve the Christian community is to grow believers into Christlikeness. No “Jesus disconnect here”…VERY connected to Christ.
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
Paul said this was the goal of his ministry with the already-converted Galatians:
4:19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you!
To be right with God by the righteousness of Christ is in no way incompatible with a passionate pursuit of knowing Christ AND of becoming like Christ.
Philippians 3:7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 2 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained. 17 Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us.
It is difficult to read these passages and see how anyone can separate justification and sanctification so far that Christlikeness is disconnected from the gift of righteousness by grace through faith.
Bishop J.C. Ryle did an exceptional job teaching how justification and sanctification are related. I wish Bishop Ryle would have used the concept of discipleship in his description, but it won’t be hard to make the application to those parts of the Gospels where Jesus teaches us how to live in the Kingdom we’ve been given as a free gift and how to live out the call to discipleship that is the Christian’s journey to Christlikeness.
Here is Ryle on the difference in justification and sanctification, followed by some other comments by Ryle on the subject.
(a) Justification is the reckoning and counting a man to be righteous for the sake of another, even Jesus Christ the Lord. Sanctification is the actual making a man inwardly righteous, though it may be in a very feeble degree.
(b) The righteousness we have by our justification is not our own, but the everlasting perfect righteousness of our great Mediator Christ, imputed to us, and made our own by faith. The righteousness we have by sanctification is our own righteousness, imparted, inherent, and wrought in us by the Holy Spirit, but mingled with much infirmity and imperfection.
(c) In justification our own works have no place at all, and simple faith in Christ is the one thing needful.
(d) In sanctification our own works are of vast importance and God bids us fight, and watch, and pray, and strive, and take pains, and labour Justification is a finished and complete work, and a man is perfectly justified the moment he believes. Sanctification is an imperfect work, comparatively, and will never be perfected until we reach heaven.
(e) Justification admits of no growth or increase: a man is as much justified the hour he first comes to Christ by faith as he will be to all eternity. Sanctification is eminently a progressive work, and admits of continual growth and enlargement so long as a man lives.
(f) Justification has special reference to our persons, our standing in God’s sight, and our deliverance from guilt. Sanctification has special reference to our natures, and the moral renewal of our hearts.
(g) Justification gives us our title to heaven, and boldness to enter in. Sanctification gives us our meetness for heaven, and prepares us to enjoy it when we dwell there.
(h) Justification is the act of God about us, and is not easily discerned by others. Sanctification is the work of God within us, and cannot be hid in its outward manifestation from the eyes of men.
Later in the same article, he makes several applications, including these:
(3) For another thing, if we would be sanctified, our course is clear and plain— we must begin with Christ. We must go to Him as sinners, with no plea but that of utter need, and cast our souls on Him by faith, for peace and reconciliation with God. We must place ourselves in His hands, as in the hands of a good physician, and cry to Him for mercy and grace. We must wait for nothing to bring with us as a recommendation. The very first step towards sanctification, no less than justification, is to come with faith to Christ. We must first live and then work.
(4) For another thing, if we would grow in holiness and become more sanctified, we must continually go on as we began,, and be ever making fresh applications to Christ. He is the Head from which every member must be supplied. (Ephes. iv. 16.) To live the life of daily faith in the Son of God, and to be daily drawing out of His fulness the promised grace and strength which He has laid up for His people—this is the grand secret of progressive sanctification. Believers who seem at a standstill are generally neglecting close communion with Jesus, and so grieving the Spirit. He that prayed,â€Sanctify them,†the last night before His crucifixion, is infinitely willing to help everyone who by faith applies to Him for help, and desires to be made more holy.
The Internet Monk Archives 
Michael,
I so love and appreciate that we have this place where we can encourage each other.
It must give you the most amazing feeling to know that God is using you in this way.
LikeLike
Patrick, much of what you say is very valid, ESPECIALLY in cases where it may lead to sin as a matter of course. After all, you don’t run down the middle of a busy street and not expect you could get run over.
I think all of us need to remember a few things. First, and perhaps most important, nothing is impossible with God. God will not give us more than we can handle. We just have to trust Him. I struggle with that every day.
To Carol: this sounds to me like you have your cross, as well as your opportunity to “become Christ” to others, as well as to see Christ IN others.
This reminds me of an EWTN Classic where Mother Angelica tells the story about her trip to a diner with an uncooperative waitress. She asked for her coffee with 3 creams, like she always has. The lady came back with 2, and disappeared. She said rather than bite her head off, which her Italian temper would have her do (born Rita Rizzo) she gave her a decent tip, and blessed her (an informal “God Bless You” as I recall). A repeat trip to the diner showed the fruit of the Golden Rule. Apparently the waitress was having a really down day, and appreciated the kind gesture from the nun. Mother got her three creams without asking. I recall Mother’s moral for this story is to consider that we don’t know WHY people act as they do, not to make it worse, and often we can make it better by “seeing Christ” in the other person despite what may appear very ugly.
LikeLike
Is no one going to accuse iMonk of advocating “works righteousness”? That’s got to be a first.
I always thought the “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me” command was more proactive than passive. Am I wrong?
I’m disabled, but I don’t consider that my cross to bear, since I didn’t take it up (it kind of took me). But I often hear people say that something they’re going through is their cross to bear.
I’ve always thought taking up one’s cross referred to living a life of sacrificial obedience, doing without things we might want (or think we need), or risking our freedom (or life) serving in a hostile environment. In other words, following where Jesus led, and being willing to take the heat (sometimes even unto death).
I don’t mean that everyone who follows Christ will be physically persecuted — but perhaps we will be culturally or politically persecuted. Jesus always seemed to eventually get under people’s skin, if they followed him around long enough. Why would we expect the world to find us any more acceptable, if we’re truly following him??
LikeLike
Scylding – Pelagian cult, eh? Sounds like the CofC I grew up in. I do appreciate the response. Week after week of “are you yielding” can tend to shape the way you think about the Christian life. I do desire to “set my Gaze” towards Christ and not myself. But, uh, maybe you could send me a reminder text along with Jenny. 🙂
LikeLike
The Scylding – I like how you keep pointing out, basically, stop over-thinking about yourself and instead think about God and loving your neighbor. Can you text me, like, hourly reminders of this?? 🙂
LikeLike
Don’t wait for the life to come. Start living it now. Meditation on the Gospels ( Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) as well as Acts are often helpful to people. By meditation I don’t mean just reading it, although a good Bible study on these books is a good idea if you haven’t much study already.
By meditation I mean a slow (even slower) and conscience reading. Pay attention to the words. This is the inspired Word of God. The inspiration (breath) is still in it. If something seems to catch your attention, pause and reflect on it. If you seemed moved to pray about it do so. This takes some practice sense we are used to speed reading and reading for tech directions.
LikeLike
ASF-Brian – that is why I made the connection to Buddhism. The mystification of Christianity is unfortunate – and I say that, still being appreciative of (some aspects of) the monastic tradition. Simply put, you have to do what your hand finds to do, even if it is wiping snot off dirty little faces.
At the same time, the expression “I’m not getting any better” is worrisome – it reminds me of the years I spent in the pelagian cult I grew up in. Stop worrying about getting better, about whether you’ve yielded enough and all that (crassly put) mystified hubub: Christ made the sacrifice. Now do what He said in the Gospels. And rejoice in doing that. And don’t agonise over your failure to reach perfection – it ain’t gonna happen. Follow your vocation. Love your neighbour. Love Christ. Stop obsessing. This “out of body” stuff is missing the point.
LikeLike
Our pastor rightly emphasizes that we cannot become more righteous/sanctified out of our own willpower. However, he then camps out on the idea that if I’m not getting any better its because I’m not choosing to “yield” or “abide” to the degree I should be. He also says that the main reason Christ came is so we can be Spirit-empowered and get ready for the life to come. I suppose since Jesus did his part of the job that’s why we don’t talk about him very much…
My confusion comes in here – if I cannot of my own will become a better Christian(hate less, love more, etc) then how can I of my own will yield to the power of the Spirit? And then how can I actually tell if I’m doing this “good” thing or if the Spirit is doing it through me.
I’ve heard it said that(by this pastor) that you should almost be having an out of body experience watching yourself do something and wondering how in the world that happened.
Any thoughts or comments this? Thanks.
LikeLike
Martha said, “you will often grow weary of yourself.” Boy, isn’t that the truth! Some days I can barely stand to be me. But like Therese said above, “When considering what it means to ‘follow Christ,’ remember that Jesus came to ‘be’ someone and to ‘do’ something….to be the representation of the Father to us (i.e., perfect self-giving love), and to proclaim the Truth that frees us.” And that is true too. So the closer we follow Jesus, the clearer we are proclaiming the Truth which is that God loves us and wants us to be citizens of his Kingdom. We need to keep reminding the world of that. Lots of people THINK they have heard the Gospel (good news) but they have not and so they lead lives of quiet and not-so-quiet desperation.
LikeLike
I think what saves the McKnight statement is the word, “before”—church formation BEFORE individual formation.
The bigger picture (that we so often forget) is that we are part of a larger story—that of God creating a people. My personal formation must be seen and pursued in terms of fitting in to what God is doing on that broader level. This totally changes the way I view my own formation.
As you have affirmed so many times, iMonk, it’s about letting the Spirit shape my life so that it conforms to the Jesus-shaped, kingdom-oriented, missional, church-planting, world-Christian movement that God introduced in the Book of Acts and is still working out today. That comes first, and my formation enables me to participate in it.
This keeps me from viewing the church as a “spiritual fitness center” where I go primarily for my own well-being.
LikeLike
LOL & ROFL!!!! Weak on Sanctification T-Shirts!! LOL!! ROFL!!!
LikeLike
J, et al:
When considering what it means to “follow Christ,” remember that Jesus came to “be” someone and to “do” something….to be the representation of the Father to us (i.e., perfect self-giving love), and to proclaim the Truth that frees us.
LikeLike
J, one understanding of what is meant by “Take up his cross and follow Me” is this from the “Imitation of Christ” by Thomas a Kempis:
“Arrange and order everything to suit your will and judgment, and still you will find that some suffering must always be borne, willingly or unwillingly, and thus you will always find the cross.
Either you will experience bodily pain or you will undergo tribulation of spirit in your soul. At times you will be forsaken by God, at times troubled by those about you and, what is worse, you will often grow weary of yourself. You cannot escape, you cannot be relieved by any remedy or comfort but must bear with it as long as God wills. For He wishes you to learn to bear trial without consolation, to submit yourself wholly to Him that you may become more humble through suffering. No one understands the passion of Christ so thoroughly or heartily as the man whose lot it is to suffer the like himself.
The cross, therefore, is always ready; it awaits you everywhere. No matter where you may go, you cannot escape it, for wherever you go you take yourself with you and shall always find yourself. Turn where you will — above, below, without, or within — you will find a cross in everything, and everywhere you must have patience if you would have peace within and merit an eternal crown.”
There will be earthly trials and sorrows in every life; we can either complain and grumble, or set our minds to bearing them with patience and humility, uniting our sufferings with the suffering of Christ’s Passion, and dying to our selfish desires. Easier said than done, of course.
LikeLike
Kozak,
You are justified by what Christ did on the cross. Just start by receiving that gift. Then say Thank you. Say thank you , Thank you ,Thank you. You are on your way.
LikeLike
Discipleship is a process – I’ve found that one on one works the best. Some of what is done is an unlearning process – you have to get them back to the 5 year old’s understanding of God.
The other things are disciplines – we teach them and use them with an end in mind – the development of the mind of Christ in each disciple.
Php 2:5-11 KJV Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I generally teach bible study and prayer as a group – good bible study should lead to prayer, and good prayer should lead to bible study.
LikeLike
Dave 138 just peaked into my soul. Most days I don’t feel very sanctified. I feel like a terrible advertisement for Christianity. Afraid to have a public funeral for fear my last embarrassment will be the lack of attendees. Once in Sunday School I asked about repetitive sin and was told that, if I were saved, I would be changed. Since I’m not changed (sanctified), does that mean I’m not justified?? How to avoid despair when the sanctification seems like a pipe dream, or a sick joke?
LikeLike
Well put. “…no matter what the consequences.” Thank you.
LikeLike
J
I’d saying dying to myself and my will. Following Christ no matter what the circumstances. A life long process.
LikeLike
I will follow Christ, no matter what the consequences.
Obviously varies in cultural context, but that we count ourselves as united with a death that has already happened and live in the hope of his resurrection, we choose Christ over anything else, including execution, etc.
LikeLike
With IMonk’s permission, could someone briefly state what the Lord meant to us by ‘take up your cross’? Since He said it after having announced that He was going to be crucified, I take it that He was saying both to those with Him and those who were thinking of following Him, that they now must understand that they would be following a Messiah who would be killed by the authorities.
In other words, He meant, give up your illusions that by following Me you will end up in some earthly messianic kingdom. But, nonetheless, follow me, to the cross.
I do not read it as having quite the same meaning for a Christian today. How can I take up my cross? I can follow Him who was crucified and rose from the dead for my sins, but the metaphor of taking up one’s cross as a form of sanctification has long mystified me.
LikeLike
Scylding,
I didn’t use the word mystical. I have already siad Spirituality is not about feelings. I am not a buddist. I am a very Trinitarian Christian. I know the passage is about producing fruit. Isn’t that what this discussion is about?
imonk,
Your caution is noted and recognized. That is why we need community and spiritual friendships, direction.
LikeLike
Was Bishop Ryle influenced by John Wesley on his views of justification and sanctification? I see some relationship there. This is good “stuff.” Sanctification also leads us into service where we also experience growth in our journey/walk.
LikeLike
I’m enjoying those posts, but I am having a logical issue with the either/or of that statement. I’d say “The Gospel is about church formation even as it is about individual transformation.”
LikeLike
From Scot McKnight’s blog yesterday, another gem that says it well: “The gospel is about church formation before it is about personal formation.”
This is so counter to the common American evangelical notion of spiritual growth, that it sounds almost heretical. Nevertheless, it’s right. It’s not really about “me” after all.
LikeLike
I’m a friend of monastic spiritual practices, but Scylding is on target. The road of Catholic, eastern and monastic spiritual practice can be a perilous one. One needs more than a guide. One needs a community spirituality that doesn’t encourage a person to turn Jesus into an individualistic pursuit using the tools of silence, etc.
Jesus practiced prayer in a way that should challenge us to pray. Jesus then lived in a way that, in my opinion, repudiates a great deal of the individualistic emphasis we hear today.
LikeLike
Sue – one needs to be careful not to dissolve “abiding” into something mystical – the context of the “abiding chapter” in John is fruit – and what is that? Kindness, self-control…. ie what you do, and how you do it. These are not required for salvation, but are a consequence thereof.
Furthermore, the contect of the whole discourse includes items like – “If you love me, keep my commandments”: Again – those concern what we do, and how we do it, both of which demonstrates our love for God, and for a fellow man. (The sum of all the commandments).
It is very easy to negate all this for either a feeling, or for a more mystical realisation of abiding, which, as some put it, sounds almost Buddhist. I would point to that excellent Kierkegaard quote that Michael A posted way up in this discussion:
“The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand, we are obliged to act accordingly.”
LikeLike
Carol,
Don’t be afraid to search for a new job. If you are an alcoholic, bars are places to be avoided. If you have issues with anger, sounds like you need to avoid a place that constantly provokes and enrages you.
I’ll come clean; most of what passes for sanctification in my life is really what I call temptation management. I know in certain situations I will end up doing X or Y, so I avoid places and situatiuons that lead to those behaviors. The longer I don’t engage in those sins the easier it is to keep avoiding them and eventually overcome them.
Facing an impossible situation day after day is more likely to make you crazy than it is to “teach” you to be Christ -like.
Ask yourself what kind of thing you would prefer doing and see if you can make it pay.
LikeLike
iMonk, excellent post. Lately I have been meditating upon and trying to draw out the implications of 2Cor 5.21–“For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”
I have always thought this verse describes only the “great exchange” in justification, but I am starting to wonder. If Paul had meant to say that, wouldn’t he have said, “Christ was made sin so that we might be declared righteous”?
Instead, Paul writes, “so that in him we might BECOME the righteousness of God.”
Hmm. Apparently, it’s not God’s plan that we simply have a right “status.”
LikeLike
Michael A: regarding your Kierkegaard quote
OOOOWWWWCH !! that’s a LOT of truth before lunch, brotha
I’m still picking thru this thread, or the parts that somewhat still on topic; GREAT TOPIC, I Monk, it’s interesting to see the urges to fill in the “HOW TO” with specificity on connectng to JESUS. I’m not too sure that one shoe is going to fit all of us, or even most of us.
Carry on Mr.Spencer, when I’m not being my carnal bad-self, I DO pray for ya.
GREG R
LikeLike
Kenny,
You might check out Renovare. They have much for the type of group you are interested in forming. The web site has a book store. Just type in Spiritual formation workbook. There are other good resources for groups too. I like Renovare because it can be used interdenominationally. I am finishing a group right now with Lutherans and Roman Catholics. It has gone extremely well.
I know the Methodist Church puts out a good one also. I am sure there are others as well.
LikeLike
Maybe we have something to learn from A.A. meetings. 🙂
LikeLike
I have a part time retail job that makes me into someone I hate. Almost as much as I “hate” the customers. I’ve mentioned here before that hate takes lots of energy, yet on the weekends, at that job,in no time at all I’m ready to rip someone’s head off.
This unhappiness is made far worse by the fact that I’m almost continually convicted that this anger is sin. What I hear is, “Jesus died for you, forgave you and you have no patience whatsoever for these people.” And these people don’t care that they are behaving in this way, so the only one suffering here is me. Then there are those colleagues who don’t want to pull their weight.
It seems clear to me that God is trying to teach me how he wants me to be more like Christ. This whole deal seems like the essence of the Christian life. But what I really want to do is tell the customers, over the loudspeaker, what I really think.
What it’s going to take to break me I don’t know. I hate to think I won’t be able to escape the job until I just hand it over. And learn to let everything just wash over me.
And by the way, I am very grateful for the job. I’m fully aware of the current unemployment situation.
LikeLike
….i like your explanation kenny…you have just described an A.A. meeting..or was it church?..
LikeLike
Spirituality is not about feeling anything. It is about a deeper walk with Christ. A realization beyond the literal, an abiding with the Lord.
“without me you can do nothing”. Reading about what Jesus did and trying to duplicate it is not abiding in Christ. It is about ourselves and what we are doing.
LikeLike
I really liked Ryle’s points (3) and (4). Among the folks that I hang with, the sanctification process is often an attempt to willpower your way into holiness, which just doesn’t work. Sanctification is just as supernatural as justification is. On the other hand, we do have to make make the right choices, do the right thing, etc as part of the sanctification process.
Reading some of the above comments, I’d like to point out (or maybe re-point-out) that much of sanctification is unquantifiable. There’s no exhaustive ‘sanctification checklist’ or ’10-step sanctification program.’ In fact, as I find God helping me ‘get better’ in some areas where I struggle with quantifiable sin and unholiness, he tends to show me deeper, nastier, UNquantifiable sins that no one but He and I can see. And then we work on that stuff, too. 🙂
LikeLike
Interesting, reading this on a day where I posted something on authenticity and existential angst over at my own blog. I think that what often stands in the way, as per the Kierkegaard quote above, is our own self-obsession. We get to be so obsessed with our (emphasis) following, that we do not atually follow. We get so obsessed with parsing etc, that we do not take up our crosses. It is easier to intelectualise, than to wipe the snot off the face of that kid next door. Or to go and sweat it out helping the other neighbour who needs it. Or to clean the kitchen for the spouse at 11pm when you are too tired to keep your eyes open. And to do it joyfully. Christ said much about helping others, about mercy to the poor and the orphan, to the sick and the dying.
Furthermore, it is quite difficult to shake off the chains of our own self-obsession, of our existential angst, and to simply hear and obey joyfully. Simply cleaning vomit of the floor is more difficult than intelectual foppery or pietistic mumblings… And following Jesus is more like the former than the latter 2.
LikeLike
mike,
I don’t see accountability as the same as “submission” to some authority.
Let’s say that I gather together with a group of Christians each week and together we’re working on strengthening our prayer life, resisting sin, serving others better, etc — by hopefully becoming more Christlike (loving God and loving others and actually living that out in our daily lives.
And we talk openly and freely about both our struggles and our “wins” and we agree to keep each other accountable, not by punishments, but by encouragements, by calling each other when someone misses a meeting, by offering help and prayer, etc.
That’s the kind of discipleship I’m looking for. I think it’s close to what iMonk is advocating.
What you’re talking about is something completely different.
LikeLike
We’re getting hip deep here, but bear with my ignorance; if we are speaking of santification as distinct from justification, then there’s two elements that can’t be separated.
We need both community and individual growth. Just attending services Sundays and weekdays isn’t enough, we have to work on developing our own faith, deepening our understanding, prayer (prayer is so important and so neglected) and putting it into practice. No-one else can do this for us. So many people leave their church because they’re stuck on a seven or twelve or fifteen year old level of knowledge, and of course that’s not enough to keep them going when they hit the difficulties of adult life. It’s staying on the milk when we should be chewing the meat.
Community then comes into it as example, teaching, encouragement, support, and development. That’s why belonging to a local church, getting involved in your parish, and moving outside your little comfort zone to actually volunteer for the ministries or join the (Catholic example coming up: sorry!) Legion of Mary, St. Vincent de Paul, whatever.
These two twine together. You can’t do it all on your own, and you can’t just float along relying on the group effort to cover you.
And finally, we all need to live out the imitation of Christ in our lives, and this doesn’t mean merely shoving a Bible in someone’s hand and saying “There you go! I’ve done my bit!”. It’s how you act when you’re tired, hungry, frustrated, and not feeling full of the joys of the Spirit. That’s the time someone will judge you by how you act, and say “So much for good Christians!”
It also doesn’t mean “I’m a good person, I don’t bother anyone” is enough – you do have to shove the Bible into the hands, sometimes, as well.
Now, if I only did myself what I so easily tell others to do…
LikeLike
….ok…this could get rough in here…Kenny..what”s the difference..i mean really?
LikeLike
[quote]Worrying about ‘feeling it’ has nothing to do with with living your life after Jesus’ example, and maybe waiting until you feel connected wit Jesus (whatever thats supposed to mean) is really just over-inflated, precious self-regard.[/quote]
Thank you, Patrick Lynch. I hardly ever “feel” anything in regard to my faith, but that’s not the point. I do what I’m supposed to do and trust that it’s for the good of the Kingdom. Of course I slip up and sin, but I haul myself over to the confessional and deal with it.
I know that there are different ways Christians of all traditions work out their sanctification. For me, the sacraments and spiritual practices in the Catholic church give me a tangible means to progress spiritually. I’m the kind of person who needs a track to run on, and I am grateful for the graces I find within the RC framework.
I do wish there was more active discipleship in our parish, although I fault myself for waiting for some kind of program to make that happen. I have never asked anyone to disciple me, nor have I offered it to anyone else, so maybe it’s time to make a call.
LikeLike
mike,
But they had a hierarchical and authoritarian discipleship ‘program’. That’s not what iMonk is advocating (or so I suspect).
That wasn’t even about spiritual discipleship, I’d argue, but about control.
LikeLike
This issue more than just about any other is what attracts me towards Eastern Orthodoxy. I’ve been in too many Protestant circles where even mentioning wanting to move forward gets one accused of of “denying the finished work of Christ.” Mention Dallas Willard or Richard Foster, and you’d better duck. However, I also grew up in a very Wesleyan area and have family in the extreme fringes of the “Holiness” movement. This side of the Protestant divide DOES care about sanctification, but it usually boils down into an extreme legalism based predominantly on what they DON’T do (dance, play cards, drink, etc.). Lacking a strong sacramental theology, sanctification in such “Holiness” oriented churches also often tends to devolve into a sort of “boot straps” Christianity which makes the Reformed accusations of Pelagianism somewhat justifiable. I want so badly for Christ to change me. I know I can’t do it on my own, and I am failing miserably every day. However, I also don’t want to sit back and say, “I’m a sinner, and that’s that. Thank God I’m forgiven.” Surely God wants to do more than just get us out of Hell. Sorry for the rant. You just touched on one of the hardest theological things I’m dealing with right now. Thanks for this post.
LikeLike
….does anyone here remember the old charismatic movement in the late 70s…..the fort lauderdale seven7…derek prince..bob mumford..ect..they taught discipleship/accountability/submission/…that movement imploded over those teachings and was labeled a cult by the traditional church group.
LikeLike
Sue:
Did someone say the SBC was the only church that operates globally?
Am I pushing the SBC as the one true church?
NOTE TO ALL: This discussion is going into moderation. All comments that are off topic with the post above will be deleted.
ms
LikeLike
Jesus’ commandment is “love the Lord with all your mind, heart and strenght and love your neighbor as yourself”. And who is my neighbor? All the people you imonk are mentioning. The SBC is not the only church body that operates globally. Most mainline denoms and RC Church are wholewide reaching people with the Gospel and food, clean water, refuge and love.
LikeLike
I know some here seem to disagree with Richard Foster, but I like the way Renovare approaches spiritual disciplines. I haven’t read a lot on it, but it seems like a good practical approach. And I’m sure some will disagree, but I think the spiritual formation classes that Renovare advocates would be a good way of doing group discipleship / accountability as long as everyone attending took it seriously.
LikeLike
Mike:
Sorry for your experience. That’s the essence of what the church is: a cross cultural/church planting movement that takes the Gospel to the nations, to subcultures, to Judea, Samaria and the ends of the earth. It’s what I am doing in Appalachia teaching kids from 21 countries. It’s why I support ministries like Gospel for Asia. It’s why I am a World Christian. It’s a lot of why I am in the SBC, not because they get it right, but their missions vision does get it right.
My apologies if this seems arrogant. It’s the heartbeat of the incarnation for me.
peace
ms
LikeLike
I am in a church that is Sacramental and Gospel based and communal. I am not talking about methodologies. I am talking about sanctification. Just Bible study alone is not enough although important. Prayer life, service to others (not church work)times of retreat and solitude,worship, guidance from spiritual directors, pastors or spiritual friends, willingness to become detached to unnecessary things and simplifiing your life, meditation on Scripture to mention a few.
I teach a comtemplative prayer class and fascillitate a couple of spiritual small groups. People learn from one another and support each other. People discover their gifts and are encourged to use them. They go deeper into Christ and their relationship with him and their relationships with others. This isn’t the whole ball of wax. Other have gifts for outreach, teaching, preaching, healing and so on I don’t have. Together we make up the Church, the Body of Christ.
LikeLike
…Cross Cultural?…can we “get real” here…i’ve only experienced that ONCE…and that was in a little pentecostal church in downtown lex years ago…and it”s long gone…the (emergent)church i now (sometimes) attend claims to be cross cultural..but all i see are “token” blacks/orientals and they are always paraded up on stage…usually in the band…strangely THERE ARE NO HISPANICS in this body of Christ….”inclusive”..”cross cultural”..”community”??……..PLEASE…….
LikeLike
Here’s the frustration I have, as a guy seemingly permanently tented in the wilderness. It’s not all the hard to understand prayer, study of the word, giving, hospitality, etc. as disciplines a disciple undertakes. But, that’s all the 50-hour course gives you. That is not the entirety of how Jesus discipled the Twelve (or the 120).
Jesus lived and breathed and ate and drank and walked, intertwined with the lives and families of the Twelve.
That is what is missing. Who among us is willing to take that young family, young man or woman (young not being a necessity) under your wing and welcome them into your family, your home, and your life; to let them see you at your worst and best, to share a burnt meal or a drive to the city; to sit for their heathen children or clean their house while they work for the rent; or just take them out for a cup of coffee to discuss the struggle of life?
Obviously that is not the entirety of discipleship either… but it is a good foundation on which to build a church plant, a mission, or a community. And it’s really all Jesus and Paul did.
But, no one wants to be a part of each others’ messy lives. Way too much distraction.
LikeLike
I see an “inside job” — everyone from Abraham to Paul spending mega-time in solitude — including the Lord Himself — before coming out and offering guidance to anyone else.
LikeLike
I hope the following comment is not too sectarian — that’s not the aim. But Ryle’s discussion of the relationship of justification to sanctification reminded me of a really striking passage in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession (part of the book of Concord), about how good works are a means by which we receive grace through faith as well as being a means by which our faith grows. Very interestingly, the Apology compares good works to the sacraments in their role in the believer’s life:
“Baptism and the Lord’s Supper, for example, are signs that constantly admonish, cheer, and confirm terrified minds to believe more firmly that their sins are forgiven. This same promise is written and pictured in good works, which thus urge us to believe more firmly. Those who fail to do good, do not arouse themselves to believe, but despise these promises. But the faithful embrace them and are glad to have signs and testimonies of this great promise. Hence they exercise themselves in these signs and testimonies. Just as the Lord’s Supper does not justify ex opera operato without faith, so almsgiving does not justify ex opera operato without faith.
. . .
“[I]n penitence we must consider faith and fruits together, so we say in reference to almsgiving that it is the whole newness of life which saves. Almsgiving is an exercise of that faith which accepts forgiveness of sins and overcomes death as it becomes ever stronger through such exercise.”
Two observations on this. First, I think that “penitence” is the word for the confessions use for “discipleship.” As in, “a life of penitence” for “a life of discipleship.”
Secondly, the irony of involvement in Mt 25-type ministries is that we meet Jesus in the people we serve. So, ultimately, it is Jesus serving us in those whom we serve. And that’s always the kicker — in seeking to give away, but I return with more than I brought.
LikeLike
Discipleship is not some set of methods taught at a seminar or in a program.
A Christian who says “show me how to connect to Jesus” might as well head to a church with high sacramentalism.
Evangelicalism should give you the Gospel when you say that, and if you keep saying it, I’d assume personally that you either find the Gospel offensive or you need to go somewhere that it’s offered to you in a tangible way.
Personally, I don’t see Jesus teaching connecting methodologies. I see sola fide and growth in faith. I see creation of community. I see missional focus on cross cultural church planting. I see ministry of compassion. I see vocation, family life, regular callings.
I don’t see the fifty week discipleship course I used to teach.
LikeLike
I wonder — has anyone compiled and published a “list” of Jesus’s Gospel reactions to things — what made Him happy, angry, sad etc. …?
It would seem of great help and import when establishing what justification and sanctification — i.e., connection to Christ — actually look like, would it not?
LikeLike
(BTW, I’m not directing my “how” at you, iMonk! :)Your site has been extremely helpful to me, and I recommend it to friends on the left and right.)
LikeLike
“Christians worry too much about other people’s religious experience when they need to mind their own business”…
LikeLike
Sue: I wonder the same thing – how?? Especially since it seems that the majority of us believers are at the point of “(h) Justification is the act of God about us, and is not easily discerned by others.” In short, nobody can tell we’re believers by our lives.
It helps to have someone who is on the path of sanctification and it “cannot be hid in its outward manifestation from the eyes of men”, to befriend us, like Ron describes. But either there aren’t many of these people, or not many of them reach out to us (maybe they don’t feel qualified, maybe they don’t take the time, I’m not sure why). Maybe tell your folks in the pews that if they see someone who pursues santicfication, to knock their door down and beg to hang out with them. Tackle them if necessary. Life’s too short to wait for them to come to us (now I’m preaching to myself!).
Also, the statement that Jesus “is infinitely willing to help everyone who by faith applies to Him for help” is such sweet relief. I’m putting Ryle on my reading list.
LikeLike
Sue, maybe chasing the ‘feeling’ of being connected has nothing to do with the incontrovertibility of it.
I don’t think we need to be shown ‘how’ to ‘connect’ with God. Asking for more knowledge at this stage (believing Christians) is really just begging the question and has to be given up: please just get on with your life.
I’m not really speaking to you exactly, but I see it a lot in others and something you said compelled me to mention.
Worrying about ‘feeling it’ has nothing to do with with living your life after Jesus’ example, and maybe waiting until you feel connected wit Jesus (whatever thats supposed to mean) is really just over-inflated, precious self-regard.
Christians worry too much about other people’s religious experience when they need to mind their own business. We can’t determine what other people want from God or from Church; that’s not what this whole ‘Community’ thing is.
I am a firm believer that real convictions of any kind prevent one from being a prima donna; why are some compartments of Christianity so full of that attitude, I wonder?
LikeLike
imonk,
I apoligize for the flinging verses comment. You are trying to have a serious discussion on an important topic.
I don’t think you and I will see eye to eye as I am not a SBC. I went to an SBC college where I learned from an SBC preacher I was going to hell when I died because I wasn’t submerged when I was Baptized. This was shocking to me because I grew up in a loving mainline denom that didn’t condemn people.
Again different traditions use the same word for different things. Spiritual disciples to me are not church discipline but spiritual practices. Such as meditation, fasting, service, solitude, worship, study and so forth. These are used to become Christ’s disciples or better ones.
Head knowlegde is great we all need it. But as you have pointed out even simple people who can’t even read or write can be great disciples.
LikeLike
We’ve repeatedly struggled with our church over the past several years in that, although we start with Wesley, and Michael Slaughter’s “Christian Entrepreneurs” as our base, our small groups always turn into relational bible study/socialization periods, rather than accountability/discipleship bodies. This has rather come to a head of late.
We say a lot about what we need to do, or how we need to start…but far too many Americans are volunteers only, they have no interest in being slaves. I’m not sure how much of this is just a lack of being able to see examples, the change in those around them, and how much is just laziness and fear. Likely a lot of both. I know I’m certainly plagued enough by those.
The thing which keeps occurring to me, but for whatever reason never seems to occur, is to start with a very small group of committed people who want to see this occur within the church, and begin in accountability and discipleship with each other, and then gradually grow outward as the Lord requires within the church, giving this as many years as is necessary. No quick fixes, no expectations of miraculous changes. Just room for the Lord to work in hearts…showing up for Him to change us.
Thank you for what you’ve said here, Michael.
LikeLike
The Bishop nicely contrasted justification and sanctification. It helps sort out faith and works. Thank you Michael.
LikeLike
Michael A:
Until some theologian or smart Christian tells you this isn’t the Christian life (even for imperfect people who never get to it perfectly and therefore need a savior) then even a 5th grader would get what Jesus is saying.
That’s the disconnect in all its glory. Reduce Jesus. Edit Jesus. Neuter Jesus. Abbreviate Jesus. Make him the founder of your church franchise. Make him a guru who says A and means Z. Turn it all into what you are doing anyway. And on and on.
Jesus is a symbol for most people; a symbol of just exactly what they want to do, where they want to go, what they want to spend and how they want to live. He approves. They’re right. End of story.
Good point.
peace
ms
LikeLike
It’s really not that hard (to understand). I’m with Kierkegaard:
“The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand, we are obliged to act accordingly.”
Was Jesus joking in Luke 12? Does he need all that much contextualization? Or do we want to run like Hell from what he’s saying?
LikeLike
Sue:
I’m going to ask you to please stop addressing me in sentences like “You are flinging verses at them.” I’ve been 30+ years teaching spiritual disciplines, discipleship, mentoring students and adults. Your entire tone toward me is as if I’m not discussing this issue in a series of posts, but insulting people. One minute you are faulting me for discussing discipleship at all. The next you are faulting me for not saying enough. Then you’re on me for not having a spiritual disciplines class, when a trip to the IM search form will reveal DOZENS of posts on the practical aspect of discipleship, including several recently.
It appears from another commenter that until I mention your particular favorite spiritual discipline, I’m going to get no credit for discussing this subject.
I don’t care if you agree with me, but when I do a multi-part series and you tell me that the ONE post I contribute with Biblical texts is “flinging” verses at people, I’m on the verge of not taking you seriously.
Since your summary of my four posts so far is that I need to “teach them to connect,” I’m pretty sure than nothing I do that’s not a “how to” post on some prayer method is going to satisfy you. I get the point.
ms
LikeLike
“NOTE: Many of today’s commenters should go to New Reformation Press and buy that “Weak On Sanctification†shirt. You’d look good in it.”
Does it come in ash-coloured sackcloth? Or just the regular hairshirt style? 😉
LikeLike
I love Ryle’s, “Believers who seem at a standstill are generally neglecting close communion with Jesus, and so grieving the Spirit.”
And Sue, I agree with you that people need information on HOW they come to know Jesus, be like Jesus. You and I have something in common in that we practice Centering Prayer. (This is not the same as “quietism” for those that may not know.) Prayer life also includes prayers of praise and thanksgiving, the Lord’s Prayer and more. And I, too, celebrate the Eucharist (within the Catholic Church for me…I know you said you are Protestant). I attend church when I can (family problems). Reading about the lives and thoughts of people who have gone before us or who are contemporary with us is also helpful. I think having a spiritual “director” would be wonderful, but I don’t have that. I think having someone to confess to is wonderful. But for me, all these things are “framed” by being often in prayer. For anyone who wants to know more about Centering Prayer, Thomas Keating and Basil Pennington have written books about it and there are places across the world where it is taught. Also, I noticed recently that William Meninger teaches Centering Prayer at his monastery in Massachusetts. You can also read about him at http://www.contemplativeprayer.net/ I have looked quickly at some of his online stuff (and you can hear some talks there too) but I don’t have his books. I have the Keating and Pennington books.
And of course, we learn how to be like Jesus by living out our lives, learning how to forgive over and over again. Learning how to have hope when all looks lost. Learning how to love the unlovable. It isn’t easy and no one has ever told us that it WOULD be easy. But the love of Jesus cushions all the blows that life throws at us. I cannot live without knowing that Jesus lives.
LikeLike
Great post, Michael. I think it’s proof that being in Christ is different than being a member of some club, but it also points to the corporate nature of being in Christ. If someone can’t love other Christians in a local church, they have a lot of nerve reading Rule and making his excellent points .
Now I’m going to throw a rock at your house so people don’t start to talk.
LikeLike
I agree with you Sue that a large portion of today’s Christians are desperate to be shown how to actually follow Christ in a real-life, rubber-meets-the-road way. Church institutions bombard people with theology, sermonizing of every variety, symbolism in the form of visuals and liturgical ritual, more scripture than the average mind could possibly retain (much less process in a meaningful way), and a whole lot of music. Even the taking or performing of sacraments can become nothing more than a thoughtless religious habit.
What today’s churches do very little of is basic discipleship. Sure, many churches have “discipleship” classes, but it’s always programmed and mass produced. As far as I’m concerned, there is no real substitute for the model that Christ gave us for discipleship, which was a person-to-person investment of time, patience, and love. And that’s what a big part of today’s struggling Christians need most — someone who is mature in Christ to befriend them, take them under wing, and give them hands-on experience and instruction in how to be a Jesus follower in day-to-day life. Unfortunately, most churches don’t emphasize this kind of discipleship, mainly because Christ-centered friendships can’t be micro-managed as an official church-sponsored program.
According to Paul (read Ephesians 4), the primary role of church leaders is to equip or train the others to do the work of ministry with the goal of everyone attaining maturity and fruitfulness in Christ — or, stated more simply, to disciple people. Somewhere along the line, the church traded the basic, Biblical principle of discipleship for a state of affairs in which prospective church leaders pay tuition to be trained and equipped by other “professional” Christians so that they can perform the work of ministry while the “nonprofessional” Christians applaud and pay them for it. A lot of money is changing hands, but very few people are being discipled. One way we’ve disconnected ourselves from Christ is by throwing away the model of discipleship He gave us.
LikeLike
This is nice but you still don’t say how. Many people are in the pews begging: How. I come to church I do your church work. They don’t know Spiritual disciplines. They don’t know how to pray. Other than here is my petitions of what I want and need. They are in churches with no sacraments. They sing Praise songs about what they are doing: ie “I lift My hands” “I give My Praise”, “Make Me a sanctuary”. They are trying. [Mod edit] They are disconnected.God is everywhere. Teach them to connect.
LikeLike