UPDATE: The county backs down.
A few years ago, I posted a story here at IM about a church that refused to do a funeral for a guy, and it was pitched in the media as a mean church refusing to do the funeral of a homosexual. I posted, ranted…..and then found out a few more facts.
The story was quite different than my first impression. Of course, the beauty of the internet is you don’t have to know anything to post in the blogosphere. Just how to type. Not how to check sources, get perspective, etc.
So I’ve been waiting to hear the other side of the San Diego Bible Study story. If you haven’t heard this one, you can find the story here at San Diego Channel 10. Check the videos.
Let me suggest that you google the phrase “San Diego Bible Study” and note the pages and pages of Christians and conservatives turning this story into one of the biggest viral news stories of the year. And please note the absence of response from the city of San Diego.
Please note who spoke first. Who described the “interrogation.” Who went to a law and policy center. Note how this is being pitched:
Christians are being persecuted.
Home Bible studies are being fined or stopped.
Of course, this is Obama’s America.
The end is near. (You may need to get into the comments for that one.)
Now, go back to the Channel 10 link I gave you, where you will find, under the video tab, the one source of a response from the county. Please let that load- it may take a minute- and listen.
Now, what do we have?
a) A cul de sac neighborhood
b) A parking issue (Parking was filling up the cul de sac)
c) Complaint(s) from neighbors
d) Some previous history
Before we go much further, please raise your hand if you have ever complained (or considered complaining) to your local government about anything going on in your neighborhood. Being a resident of Ky, let me give you some typical complaints: Noise at night. Parties. Parking in yards. Loud music. Trespassing. Parking in front of houses. Loud kids. Trash in yards. Cars up on blocks. Non-functioning cars in the yard. (Hey, this is Ky.)
In other words, many of us are familiar with the concept of the “angry neighbor.” And if you know the suburbs, you may be familiar with the “territorial neighbor” who is irritable over issues of parking.
Please note that now we have something else: likely neighbor issues.
Enter one Brian Auten from the Boar’s Head Tavern, and this comment:
Re: parking and home Bible studies. I have no trouble envisioning this type of behavior from an overzealous zoning commissioner; however, I also wonder (a) how well the pastor and his wife know their neighbors; (b) if the idea for weekly home Bible study was run past the neighbors beforehand (â€Hey, we’re thinking of having a Bible study at our house. Naturally, you’re invited. We also wanted to check in with you about it. Do you have any concerns? There could be possible parking issues on those evenings. How do you feel about that? Are there certain evenings that would work better for youâ€); and (c) did the pastor and his wife pursue other options (i.e. rotation of homes) before going to the press and the Western Center for Law and Policy? Granted, they could have Captain Misanthrope and his wife Shrill as neighbors and it wouldn’t have mattered a bit what they did, but I’m curious as to the general neighbor-to-neighbor dynamics in operation here. Does this stem from viewing home-based Bible studies in this way vs. as neighborhood mission stations?
OK…here’s my thoughts.
1) I think the county official who visited this pastor was likely the sort of jerk zoning gestapo that delights in power and self-importance. If he asked “Do you say amen?” then he’s clearly being provocative. I’ll wager he (or she) is going to be in trouble.
2) A home Bible study ought to be protected by every law on the books. It’s inexcusable that anyone having a Bible study should worry about government harassment in America. If that’s the issue, then I hope Pastor Jones wins $10 million in damages.
3) Parking is another issue. Like it or not. It’s an issue no matter what the meeting is in the home. Regular use of large amounts of neighborhood parking- especially without prior arrangement and permission from neighbors- will create resentment and complaint.
4) Police and fire access are issues. Remember when they used to give tickets for parking in front of a fire hydrant? It didn’t matter if you were a pastor on call.
5) This is quite likely about how Christians are perceived and how Christians have treated their neighbors. In many areas in America, people don’t want churches or gatherings of Christians in their neighborhoods. Yes, they have the right to gather, but where a community has recourse through zoning or other laws, there are people who will use those. More and more churches are finding out they are not welcome in the suburbs.
6) Christians: ask yourself if you are capable of complaining to the zoning commission if a large group of atheists or Muslims are parking in front of your house because of a regular neighborhood meeting. Be honest.
7) Somewhere between the stories and versions of stories told by the lawyers and the offended is the truth. It’s not the propaganda Christian and conservative media are pumping out. And it’s not the insanity of the zoning officer wanting $10,000 in fees. It’s something more complex; something about how Christians are perceived and how we relate to unbelievers.
8] Stop the whining. Stop the insisting on rights. Stop going to legal foundations. GO TALK TO YOUR NEIGHBORS. Work this out. Show something practical and constructive. Would Jesus be shouting about Obama is shutting down Bible studies? Get a grip.
Your thoughts- appropriately and intelligently expressed are welcome. If you are going to use the tone of some of the Christians in the comment threads I’ve read on this, we won’t have a discussion at all.
The Internet Monk Archives 
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/biblestudy.asp
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For years I have been attending to see and/or officiate high school sports. Often the near neighbors are inundated with cars parked at curbs, cul de sacs, etc. for the games. I have not heard of any serious complaints by them. But the difference seems to be that these events are seasonal, not every week forever, so maybe alternating homes is best answer if #8 fails.
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Interesting thoughts… thanks for the clarification.
I suppose that the key issue is whether or not the group was treated differently because they were a religious group. Probably not, but not something that we’ll know.
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Preach it, brother. Time for people to use their Christianity to build bridges instead of using it as a leg to stand on.
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#8 talking to the neighbor is a great idea, but it won’t make a difference at this point. Once a government agency has investigated and issued a finding of (in their opinion) zoning non-compliance, they cannot ignore it even if the neighbor withdraws his complaint… otherwise, they would be weakening zoning enforcement on a wide variety of issues through out the city. The bell cannot be un-rung. It must resolve through the legal processes established for land use.
I have a friend who established a no-cost, after-school tutoring program in his backyard, as part of an inner-city ministry. Technically, the zoning code classified it as day-care, a use that was not allowed in his zone. The city was sympathetic and said that as long as no complaints were received, they could look the other way. This worked for about 5 years, then a neighbor complained about the traffic. The city reluctantly shut down the program.
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From “County Won’t Force Permit on Bible Study Leaders” (http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/may/30/1n30bible00100-county-wont-force-permit-bible-stud/?metro&zIndex=108046)
Barraged by hundreds of complaints, San Diego County officials backed down yesterday from their enforcement.
“No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do, and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent,†county Chief Administrative Officer Walt Ekard said in a statement.
Chandra Wallar, the county’s general manager of land use and environment, said the county has re-examined the situation and decided that the Joneses don’t need a permit after all.
Religious assembly, under the county land-use code, is defined as “religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches.â€
Wallar said that definition, which doesn’t spell out specific thresholds on when a religious gathering becomes a religious assembly, probably needs to be clarified and that more training may be warranted for code enforcement officers.
She said the county was not targeting the Joneses because they were exercising their religion, but rather it was trying to address parking and traffic issues.
“We’ve advised the pastor he has the authority to continue to hold his meetings just as he’s held them,†Wallar said. “My hope is we will be able to resolve the traffic concerns.â€
Wallar said the person who filed the complaint alleged that Bible study was drawing 30 to 40 cars.
In an interview yesterday, the pastor said at most, there are six additional cars on Bible study day. Jones, pastor of South Bay Community Church in National City, said he has visitors park in a lot that he owns beside his house.
“We’re in trouble if they are going to go with a parking issue, because that means that thousands of people in Bible study groups could be cited for a parking violation,†Jones said.
“What about people who gather to play Texas Hold ‘Em, Mommy and Me, ‘Monday Night Football,’ Boy Scouts, Alcoholics Anonymous? Everyone has a right as a homeowner to the quiet enjoyment of their property. They’re trying to take that away. We’re not going to let it go.â€
Constitutional law scholars say that the county can impose land-use restrictions on religious gatherings, as long as they are not unreasonable or discriminatory.
“If people can get together weekly to read books or discuss books or play bridge, if those are OK, there would be a constitutional issue involved in singling out, among other things, religion as a forbidden thing,†said Larry Alexander, constitutional law professor at the University of San Diego.
Dean Broyles, president of the Western Center for Law & Policy, a nonprofit organization in Escondido that supports religious liberty, is representing the Joneses. He said traffic issues were not raised when the code enforcement officer first visited the Joneses in response to the complaint. The warning itself does not mention traffic or parking problems.
“Even though the county is saying it’s about traffic and parking, it’s a fake issue. It’s a fabricated issue,†Broyles said.
According to Broyles, the code enforcement officer asked a series of pointed questions during her visit with the Joneses – questions such as, “Do you sing?†“Do you say ‘amen?’ †“Do you say ‘praise the Lord?’ â€
Wallar said the county is investigating what questions were asked and in what context. She said a code enforcement officer does have to ask questions about how a place is being used to determine what land-use codes are applicable.
“Our county simply does not tolerate our employee straying outside what the appropriate questions are,†Wallar said.
Ekard, the top county executive, emphasized in his statement that he would get to the bottom of the matter.
“Should I find that county staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately,†he said.
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Interestingly, this news story struck a cord with me as a pastor. Why? Because in trying to help another churches start home Bible Studies, cell groups, and home churches in some of the areas where fellow churches are located we have met the same county, city, and community hassle. They went door-to-door handing out fliers and answering any questions. They went to the county, the local boards, neighborhood associations, and city… and guess what? Everything was fine until one neighbor complained.
Then all of sudden they needed parking permits, county codes might be broken, they might need to get a zoning permit, a building use permit. Then came the questions: Why were they meeting together? What kind of organization was this? What materials did they use in the study? Were children adequately taken care of? Do you have the proper childcare certification? Are you exceeding fire codes? Each concern was patiently answered and explained, and they went back to the county, the neighborhood association, to each neighbor — even the one who complained and would not admit he did — and… it turned out that no zoning laws were being broken, no permits were needed, and only one neighbor complained. And guess why they complained? They did not want “Bible Thumpers” (his words) “in my neighborhood upsetting my children.” Huh? It took over a year of hassles to finally get to the truth from the County. And some actual fees were paid that did not need to be and yet were never refunded. That was several years ago and the Bible Studies are now going on all over the area.
There are neighborhoods and suburbs in our area that actually have written in their neighborhood association codes that no Bible studies or home churches can be done in homes in their areas. Some housing tracts even restrict where churches can be built.
Just so you know…
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#5 and #8 are spot on. What I want to know is how many of the anti-evangelical smart a** bloggers who wrote in with some derogatory remark about those zealous to find an offense against Christians understand that there are no perfect Christians and making derogatory remarks about them or any other group is gossip and that is sin.
1 Timothy 5:13 states, “Besides that, they learn to be idlers, going about from house to house, and not only idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying what they should not.”
Would it proper to replace “house” with “blog”?
Your rants are no worse than their rants. How well do you know your neighbor? How often do have casual conversation, show concern, etc?
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Great post on yet another red herring thrown out by the religious right and their willing accomplices in the “conservative media.” I saw this on my daily check of the right wing fringe at World Net Daily. It was their banner headline when I saw it. Some guy in a blog called San Diego County the “People’s Republic of San Diego.” Peace, Steve+
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#8
I was surprised I actually had to scroll down 5 posts on the news site before ACORN was mentioned.
My motto is that if things don’t make sense, you don’t know the whole story. And sometimes we never know the whole story.
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For today’s update on the story by the San Diego Union Tribune, see their website at signonsandiego(dot)com.
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I find this well fitting with the passage I’m studying in my class this week. We are mainly looking at 1 Corinthians 9:7-12a, along with examining the rest of the surrounding context (1 Corinthians 8-10). The main point of this section is that while we might have the right to do something (whether it’s spiritually or legally really) but it is not always best to exercise that right. It can cause others to stumble if we do, or hamper the transmission of the Gospel.
That being said, we shouldn’t just take it when our rights are threatened, but we definitely need to think about our motivation in how we are responding.
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no one
ever
sees the whole picture,
and we all see in a human, and worldly way.
believers know this
and that is why we are to follow Jesus.
easier said than done. right?
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I remember the funeral story Michael, and how I wrote you and said you didn’t have all the facts.
I never told you I was in touch with people involved on both ‘sides’.
You were gracious to my rebuke, fair and quick to show grace, and I will never forgot how you responded.
Your choice that day stuck with me more than anything you’ve ever written.
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what about carpooling to the prayer group?
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Blocking access for emergency vehicles? In a cul de sac? Are they parking their cars in a line across the entrance of the cul de sac? Otherwise I’m at a loss as to how an ambulance couldn’t get close enough to any house in a cul de sac to do what it needs to do.
And even if they were parking in some bizarre fashion that blocked access, why not call the police? Why would zoning enter into the question?
And while I’m all in favor of Christians being good neighbors, we’re talking about 15 people. That means a maximum of 15 cars (probably far fewer) parking in legal parking spots once a week. Is this really worth all the fuss? We need to do our part as Christians, but it seems like it’s a valid time to call shenanigans.
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A few days ago when I first read this story, I remarked to someone else (via email):
The writers of the stories that I have seen about this tried to approach the county, and the representative that they spoke to expressed a bit of surprise but said she had to get back to them. This is standard government code for: “One of my employees is nuts, but I have to figure out how nuts and also a way to spin this so that it doesn’t look like I’m an incompetent leader that I would employ the afore-mentioned nut.”
So then we have this little gem in the channel 10 story: “Obviously, I wasn’t there, so I can’t tell you exactly what was said. However, what our officer was trying to do is establish what the use is so that we know what regulations to actually utilize,” explained Chandra Wallar of the county’s land use and environment group.
And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the afore-mentioned spin. For my next trick…
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This is a great post because it illustrates two key principals.
First – Don’t believe anything you hear (and only half of what you see – bonus points for the source of that quote). The press is here to attract eyeballs, sell advertising, win a prize – pretty much like all business. Even if they are accurate in what they do report, it doesn’t mean they are reporting all of the information. Don’t make final judgments based on reporting, especially from a single source – or the same source repeated through out the blogosphere like drums on a warpath
Second, non-lawyers shouldn’t play lawyer. As an expert witness (but not a lawyer) in cases like this, let me assure you unless you practice law in this area, you don’t understand the full intricacies of the law. Even with my experience I would not state a “legal” opinion based on the information available to us. Don’t make legal pronouncements if you don’t have the background – and reading about it doesn’t make you an expert
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We had a similar situation in Asheville, NC, when two young women opened a ministry with the homeless in a rented residence across the street from the YWCA. They put a six foot cross in the yard, let 6 homeless women sleep in three of the bedrooms, had an open kitchen, and held services Sunday mornings – all without making any effort to communicate with the city government or with the other churches in the city. Someone finally checked the city zoning code and found that regular religious services in a residential area require a permit, and there are restrictions on the number of unrelated adults who can live in a house. The ministry lasted for about 6 months and folded when the two founders fell out with each other. I think that some effort to cooperate with others might have helped.
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If people look at the world this way (Christians are always being persecuted in the US), does the expulsion of a female fan from a Texas Rangers game for wearing a “Yankees Suck” t-shirt constitute a “victory?” The clip that I saw noted that the Rangers security people viewed the saying as obscene. So, do we end the week even?
I just can’t wait for the next egregious example of how Christians in the US are being persecuted. Christians in Iraq, Indonesia, Somalia, etc. just don’t know how good they have it. They probably wouldn’t last a week in San Diego.
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I have lived in San Diego all my life – in fact, my family has been here since 1901. The County (and the City of San Diego, for that matter) are pretty notorious for their actions against religious groups, mostly Christians ones. I have noticed a definite bias against churches in San Diego County.
One recent example is seen in the little town next to mine, Guatay, CA, whose only church was closed by the San Diego County because the original permit was for a bar rather than a church. However, this church has been meeting in the building for over 20 years. This news story only went as far as San Diego itself, but this story and several other similar ones may explain why the pastor jumped right over to defending the Bible study’s right to assemble. See story: http://www.wnd.com/index.php/index.php?pageId=82230 and http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20081120-9999-1m20guatay.html
Yes, permits may be needed in the case of the Guatay Christian Fellowship, but those permits may end up in excess of $30,000 for the *rental* of a building with no parking issues at all in a town of fewer than 800 people, plus possible environmental impact reports for all the cars parked on an asphalt lot. It’s the only church in the town of Guatay and one of only five churches in a fifteen-mile radius. Guatay is a notoriously poor area – the vast majority of the residents live in the two mobile home parks in the town. So many of us took the County’s strong-arm tactics in closing down this church for six months until forced by the courts to allow its reopening as anti-Christian sentiment.
It’s a rather sad thing, but County officials here quite often carry *huge* chips on their shoulders and they would rather threaten than work out issues with the citizens. This recent case with the Bible study in Bonita (in a rural area, BTW) concerned a gathering that has been going on for five years. It was *not* a new situation. Perhaps the trouble started when neighbors moved into the cul de sac after the study was established. Yes, it would have been best to deal directly neighbor-to-neighbor, but some people are much too eager to call the County rather than talk to their neighbors.
In addition to apparent anti-church sentiment, I think this situation may be a case of overzealous County officials trying to get money for the permit (and I can tell you far too many horror stories about getting permits in this county for *anything*!). Even fire victims have been ripped off by the County in getting permits for rebuilding their homes, even though the County promised to “expedite” their plans, as my husband, a home designer who worked with dozens of fire victims, can attest first-hand.
So although I sympathize with the neighbors, I can understand the over-reaction on the part of the pastor because of past history churches have had with the County of San Diego and the County’s permit-crazy attitude.
Just a little back-country San Diego background —
Susanne
Pine Valley, CA
San Diego County
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It seems much of the discussion here is about parking and safety. But, as was mentioned earlier on, no parking citations were issued.
Re: being neighborly. Is it possible whoever complained is one of those people who are never happy, no matter what you do? I’ve had a few neighbors like that over the years.
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If the parking is the problem, that’s one thing, but when a city or county official person comes to your door and asks if you are praying there, wouldn’t we all be a bit upset?
I figured the right wing shows would grab this, but I don’t know. It still sounds like money grabbing tactics to me. (Yes, I live in California….and more of this kind of grab for dollars will be coming!)
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If worst comes to worse, they’ll have to have Bible study in church.
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I didn’t read any of the other comments. I’ve not read any other blog posts about this. I have read two news articles, but I’m not sure if either of them are the one you linked to.
My first thought when I first read about it was “How many cars are coming to this house?”. If I were a neighbor, I might be annoyed.
I once went to a church picnic at a pastor’s house. He had everybody park at an elementary school down the block. People dropped off the kids and coolers and moved their cars away from the house. Volunteers shuttled people to and from the lot. These folks can do similarly in order to keep the peace.
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Most christians wouldn’t ask the neighbors about parking for a bible study because they are afraid of being labeled as “radicals”. Some wouldn’t ask because they simply don’t know their neighbors and don’t want to. People are shy after all.
As far as rights and legal complaints go, most christians wouldn’t complain about an atheist meeting or a muslim meeting because that would be blown up by the mainstream media and the christians would be called “hate-mongers” by some, “radicals” by others, and “intolerant” by most people.
I am not saying that this particular bible study group did the right thing. There are certainly things they should have done, such as asking about parking, which was brought up by IM. And there is the possibility that the official is a self-important person, also brought up by IM. But is it not true that while our government and the mainstream media proclaim “universal tolerance” they condemn christianity for being exclusive?
Please don’t think I’m a “radical conservative”, because I’m not. I don’t think women go to hell for having abortions, and I don’t think gays go to hell for being gay. Straight people and women who have no abortions go to hell too, and so would I without the blood of Jesus.
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Lot’s of great discussion here, and I agree Christians should be nice and not demand their rights and all that. But isn’t the potential “offense” here blown out of proportion? Unless it is a gated community with an established HOA, do people have a “right” to not have others park in front of their home? Christians can be jackasses in a lot of ways, but I am not ready to concede that parking a few cars on the block one night a week is what is skuttling our witness. It is much bigger than that.
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Just so others know. Being from Ky (the other end from iMonk) zoning in all but the few metro areas of the state is very lax compared to areas like San Diego. So people from an area like this have no comprehension of how restrictive zoning can be in areas like SD. This alone can lead to a lot of hyperbole in these conversations.
And zoning in many areas of the country that boomed in the 70s and later is a bit, in my opinion, over the top. In many cases if you follow the letter of the law 1/2 or more of the residents of an area would be in violation at any one time. The folks that write the laws imagine a suburban landscape ready for a postcard, not any place where folks actually have to live.
And as many have said and the SD official noted, it’s complaint driven. And since most folks are in violation part of the time, it’s easy to “get caught” when you irritate your neighbors.
So how do you deal with these things? Get on good terms with your neighbors. Let them know what is happening. Be aware that cul-de-sac parking is an issue without visitors and reguarly filling one up will irritate said neighbors.
Take the chip off your shoulder and make a few friends.
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I appreciate the perspective laid out in your post. I work for the County in question and let me just clarify the permit issue. It is not a money making tool. You bet this state can use all it can get, but not from these permit fees. Turns out there is no permit needed. But had there been, the fees would have been used to studay and offset/mitigate any negative impacts to the adjacent properties. Yes the vacant lot is his. But it is illegal to park cars on a vacant lot in a residentially zoned area. I point back to your own KY no op vehicle comment as well as our always high fire danger here. As for parking helter skelter on this oddly shaped cul de sac…let me suggest a scenario. One neighbor decides to have a bible study and another decides to have a BBQ. The visitors to the bible study park around the cul de sac (some double and triple parked) and someone gets burned badly at the BBQ. Fire crews and ambulance cannot get in. No one wants that, all of these issues can and should be worked out between neighbors. But if we are called (we are complaint activated, we do not seek this out)and we find an issue, we must act. They were sent a standard notice. It was not the appropriate notice and wording for this instance. The questions were unnecessary other than to determine what code section to refer to. But we knew that, it only needed verification.
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Just from reading the story the whole problem is the language that was used when questioning the pastor and his wife. Who knows if that part is true or not, but if it is and the line of questioning was about ‘are you having bible study’ do you say ‘praise the lord’. This kind of questioning, coming from a government official, is completely inappropriate and if he did say this, I would bet he is sweating right now.
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Another item to be aware of is the lay of the land. In a lot of San Diego County, it tends to be mountainous, and so it is harder to park in subdivisions and still have clear vision for driving.
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iMonk,
I would like to preface my comments by saying that here I am talking about rights, not necessarily what the correct Christian response should be. 🙂
I think we are saying pretty much the same thing. Note that I was saying as long as there were not conflicts with other fundamental rights…
I agree with the safety issue, that addresses the issue of security of person. As for limited parking, as long as I am parked legally, I have the right to park wherever anyone else is parked. Every Sunday morning at my church our neighborhood is packed with cars. Our church tried to alleviate the problem by converting a house into a vacant lot, but the neighbors wouldn’t allow that to go through, so they are stuck with a lot of cars in their neighborhood each Sunday. We all park legally, don’t block fire hydrants or driveways, and only on the designated side of the street.
If access for emergency vehicles became an issue then the city would have the right to further restrict parking in the area.
As for noise and curfew laws. I think that these can be shown not to be an absolute restriction on religious gatherings, but rather a condition on all gatherings.
I would note that at least up here in Ontario, the fire marshal determines the maximum number of people who can be in a building for safety reasons.
For residences it is two per bedroom, which seems a “little” draconian.
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Being a good neighbor – what a concept. I think Jesus had something to say on that but I just cant remember…..
Our old church in a town far far away had grown way too large for the site (250 to 1,250) We were parking everywhere, and not just on Sunday morning. Now we were zoned correctly, and parking (generally) legally on the streets, but it was a headache for the residential neighbors.
So we invited them in, asked for suggestions and implemented them. We kept on street parking to just one side on the residential streets. We arranged to use the parking lot of a nearby business and shuttled people in. We put in bike racks and encouraged biking. We put parking monitors out to keep things moving and prevent problems.
We also let the neighborhood kids play basketball in our gym, and put up hoops in the parking lot and let the neighbors know they were welcome at our facility for neighborhood meetings.
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Michael, I appreciate your caution to let all of the facts come out before jumping on either the preacher or the county. There are likely many more facts to emerge.
From the responses on this blog, the easy caricatures seem to flow quickly and in both directions at once. Any doubts that traditional evangelicals are the only believers that rush to unwarranted opinions about people they don’t know have been rested.
It does appear from the facts that there is a complaining neighbor…singular. I really appreciate the perspective that we are called to love our neighbors, not enforce our rights against them.
It also seems that the bible study was cited on land use grounds, not parking or public safety.
While I don’t know about California state courts, I would not want to argue the county’s case in federal court that my land use regulations trump freedom of assembly and free exercise without some other compelling public issues like safety or parking. The county can’t sustain a regulation that limits bible studies without limiting super bowl parties or political gatherings too. It’s an expensive loser for the county.
Politically this case is a loser too. The county will slowly back away from pursuing a land use issue against home bible studies.
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The media and blogosphere seems to be treating this story as another example of Big Bad Government intruding into our lives. Since I work with land use laws in a county government, I take particular interest in the story. I also attend a small church located in a residential community.
Having read the media reports linked to the post, it seems that most of the information is coming from either the pastor or the pastor’s attorney – not much from the county as to their rationale for the notice. A quick review of the relevant sections of the San Diego zoning code (section 2104 and so forth) indicates that the code requires a major use permit for religious assembly use, defined in section 1370 as religious services involving public assembly such as customarily occurs in synagogues, temples, and churches. (BTW, zoning laws are notoriously hard to understand and must be read in the context of the land use code of the specific municipality. I claim no special understanding of the San Diego County land use code.)
With that in mind, these are some of the issues I would raise.
1. Are cars parked illegally? If so, isn’t that a police matter?
2. Does a weekly Bible study group meeting of 10-15 people comprise religious assembly use? How would the impacts cause by a such a meeting differ from those of say, a small church located in a neighborhood? How should the county’s zoning laws treat such Bible study groups?
3. Does the San Diego zoning code treat religious assembly use any differently from nonreligious assembly use? Does the zoning code run afoul of RLUIPA?
Your point 8 has a very practical application in this instance. Enforcement of county land use laws is primarily complaint driven. If you’re on good terms with your neighbors, they’ll be hesitant to complain. But if you’re not, then they’ll complain to the county government, and once they do, the county is duty-bound to investigate the complaint.
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Michael,
While I agree with you in principle, it’s not hard for me to imagine situations where freedom to assemble would have to compromise as other rights and laws came into play.
For example, the county official mentioned the ability of fire and ambulances to access homes. Would freedom of assembly absolutely trump the interest of the county in putting out a fire at another home or getting to a heart attack victim?
I don’t see this as a “trump card” issue, but an issue where various rights and legal areas interact.
I don’t have the right to have 200 of my own cars parked every day in a neighborhood with a limited parking. It’s my right to acquire them, but my neighbor’s right to have parking as well.
In the same way, it’s my right to have 15 people over for Bible study, but if there are issues created- even stupid ones- I still, as a citizen, have to interact with all the laws that apply in my neighborhood. (noise, parking, access, curfew, etc.)
peace
ms
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Craig,
I am out of my depth on this one, though I still disagree with your conclusion that a judge is not going to look favourably on the Pastor.
I don’t like the fact that some of the commentators are suggesting they find another place, or move. Unless a Pastor’s freedom of religion was interfering with someone else’s base freedoms, then that freedom should trump all local ordinances.
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I live in San Diego and find this a curious story. Comments regarding the city of San Diego and the city council, etc. are almost certainly irrelevant since the news clearly identifies that this is a San Diego County issue. Although the city of San Diego is in the county of San Diego, the county is larger than the city, and includes a number of other communities.
Perhaps the city has troubled people who have meetings in their homes, but I have never heard of that happening. I know of numerous Bible studies, meetings of Muslims, Buddhists, Mary Kay and similar groups that take place regularly. The city is aware of some of these, and ignores them.
In my neighborhood, we have one neighbor with at least five vehicles, including a maximum size RV, plus a long car-hauling trailer that are parked on the street 24/7. This has elicited complaints to the city and the police, who are not the least bit concerned. The city is in the midst of a budget crisis and there seems to be little time and effort going into enforcing these kinds of things.
Apparently the situation you talk about here is a county issue, and involves the confluence of a pastor who is not on good terms with at least one of his neighbors, a crotchety neighbor and a zealous county official.
A friend who is an official in one San Diego County community that is not part of the city of San Diego tells me that these types of situations are rarely dealt with unless a neighbor complains. Then the city, county, or whoever usually just tries to do whatever they can to get the complaining neighbor to stop complaining. Sounds like we’re back to the pastor didn’t befriend the neighbor. Maybe he needs to move to another neighborhood, and start off on the right foot with his new neighbors.
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20 years ago I was part of a group that started a college singles class at my church. We had a bible study that went from about 5 to 25 real fast. And of course the parking annoyed my neighbors. They actually called the police. This is in the DFW area in Texas. We did go talk to the neigbors and the police gave us 4 weeks to find another place. We actually found a place in 2 weeks at an apartment complex clubhouse. They actually required a pretty large deposit but gave it back to us after couple weeks because we left place often better than we found it. None of us got angry in our situation and still had a good relationship with my neighbors and the city we lived in and we never involved the media.
I guess my question in this situation is whatever happened to comon sense.
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In complete ignorance of what’s going on here, I have no hesitation on throwing in my tuppence worth 🙂
At first glance, if what the woman says is true and she was asked by the official “Do you say amen?”, I did take it as showing some level of hostility to religious assembly.
However, thinking about it, and this is all pure speculation – maybe the neighbours complained about noise. Maybe it is more like a service and not just a Bible study. Maybe there are loud shouts of “Amen!”, loud enough to be heard next door.
Maybe that’s why the official was asking her “Do you say such-and-such/?” Not because he was being offensive, but to corroborate that what the neighbours complained about was correct.
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Michael – I appreciate that link. I would caution against reading too much into an individual case from a magesterial Judge in Connecticut. San Diego is located within the 9th Circuit and such a decision would not even bind a Connecticut Judge, let alone a Court in California. Further, if you read RLUIPA and cases involving its interpretation, you’ll find (1) the Supreme Court has never ruled it Constitutional and actually struck down a prior, similar Act as Unconstitutional and (2) RLUIPA is intended to address land use restrictions which are separate and apart from municipal or county ordinances. Stated another way, a municipal government may not allow a McDonald’s to be built in a particular area but not a Church. Likewise, a municipal government may not alter zoning or land use controls to preclude a religous house of worship from continuing its prior uses.
Legally, it presents an interesting question. In my opinion, most Courts are not going to view this situation in a manner sympathetic to the Preacher.
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Craig,
What about freedom of assembly? It’s not just a freedom of religion issue and “facial neutrality” is irrelevant if the statute infringes everyone rights.
Of course a judge can practically act on a whim these days – so what might “fly” in the 9th circuit and what’s right are two different things.
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Why does this story (and others like it) remind me of this quote from Rex the Dinosaur in Toy Story?
“I was going for fearsome, but… I’m afraid I’m just coming off as annoying.”
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I agree with Morgan. Why not work out a relational solution rather than a “legal” one?
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Thanks for expressing my thoughts when I first heard this issue! I’m ALWAYS skeptical when I find out about something first through some sort of email or facebook, and then when I read the story and it was all from the pastor’s point of view, I was even more skeptical. Even if the facts were exactly as laid out by him, I don’t like that he’s dealing first with the government when he should be dealing first with those who were offended (his neighbors).
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Actually a real solution might be to have folks disperse the cars a couple of blocks away and walk in. Maybe they might even smile and have a kind word for the neighbors they encounter.
Heh heh. Of course who has time for walking or neighborly relations when one is doing bible study with hand and battling the evil-Harry-Potter-reading-neighbors with the other!
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I am not an attorney but I will have to disagree with Craig on this one. There is already constitutional precedent set in Connecticut in 2003.
Basically, freedom of religion and freedom of expression trumps traffic concerns.
The Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000 was introduced to cover these very kinds of issues.
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The real sadness here is the efficiency of the right-wing media at pushing out yet another anti-Obama story.
How can Christians be persecuted when they make up the vast majority of people in this country?
If there’s persecution happening, it’s targeted at liberals and gays and anyone else who doesn’t march to the tune Rush Limbaugh says they ought to.
What would the answer be if we added up deaths of liberals at the hands of conservatives and then compared them to deaths of conservatives at the hand of liberals, including suicides on both sides?
That’s not a political statement; it’s a quantitative exercise without judgment either way. Just run the numbers, anyone who has time.
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The first I heard of it—this morning—was from someone who said, “Hey look: Christians are being persecuted in San Diego.”
I really wonder if we Americans aren’t suffering from survivor’s guilt: We’re really not persecuted. Not at all. Not in comparison with what Christians are going through in other countries. Thus we’re so quick to jump on any little difficulty, relabel it “persecution” and freak out.
And rather than accept “persecution,” if you want to call it that, as the typical consequences of following Jesus, we respond: “You can’t do that. Not in America. We have rights. We have a Constitution. We’ll sue.” It’s a far cry from Paul’s tendency, in Acts, to get legal only when his life was in danger.
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I’m an attorney. I can tell you that the whole “unconstitutional” argument just isn’t going to fly. Without, admittedly, knowing all the facts, I’m sure that the County has an ordinance on the books that prohibits regular gatherings at one’s home without a permit. Since the regulation is “facially neutral” meaning that it does not, on its face, purport to discriminate against regiligion, it will be presumed constitutional. Furthermore, so long as it is neutrally applied (i.e., they broke up some guys book club across town) then they there is not going to be a Constitutional problem.
Even though I’m a Christian, I tend to sympathize more with the neighbor here. This guy works all day and wants to come home and enjoy a quite night with the wife and the kids. Then, several times a month a large number or cars and people (enough to fill a vacant lot and the cul-de-sac). Experience teaches me that visitors are not always as respectful of the neighborhood then residents. I’m sure it’s loud, I’m sure there’s trash left behind and I’m sure it’s annoying.
Obviously, the right thing to do is for the neigbors to talk it out and come up with an arrangement that makes everyone equally unhappy, and I’m disappointed in the preacher for not being a little more Christian in loving his neighbor.
Imonk, I’ve been reading your posts for a few months now and this is my first post. So you know, I love the site.
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Brian: Your first two facts are in the video I have encouraged readers to view.
ms
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A couple of facts on the “parking” angle:
1) The pastor owns an adjacent vacant lot where most of the people in the Bible Study usually park
2) Sometimes attendance is high enough that some of the cars end up parking in the cul-de-sac
3) The pastor mentioned that one attendee did run into a neighbor’s car once. The pastor paid for the repair himself.
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20 dollars says that this Bible study is dispy. in theology.
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As someone who held Bible Studies in my home in San Diego for many years, this story is very interesting. There are literally hundreds of home Bible Studies in the city every week, and I doubt the city really cares. In fact, I know a pastor who operates a home-based church in the inner city- and they were doing so many amazing things in the neighborhood that they were actually given access to public facilities to hold church services!
How we relate to our neighbors matters; if parking is always an issue (it is in every cul de sac I know of), have them park down the street and walk… it’s San Diego, after all… the weather’s always nice!
On the other hand, the SD City Council is a weird bunch; a friend of mine went to the council to protest some ruling that was in violation of the US Constitution, and she was told that the Constitution didn’t matter in San Diego!
So, it’s easy to believe there are issues on both sides. It’s also easy to believe that The Western Center for Law and Policy is adding fuel to the fire in order to create an issue they an fight about.
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Good post, Michael. I hope you leave it up. This situation is a lot of things, but persecution of believers doesn’t make the list. I’ve lived in countries where real persecution happens, and this single anomalous situation ain’t it.
It’s possible that the pastor has a picky and grumpy neighbor, but it’s also possible that the neighbors have put up with the parking nuisance for some time but finally reached the end of their patience and called authorities. Also possible that they tried to talk to the pastor first. Been there and done both of those things myself. We’ll have to see what comes out in the wash. Can’t help thinking, though, that a little consideration of others before self from the start might have prevented the whole situation.
The other dynamic that sometimes happens in these cases of perceived persecution is that the alleged victims often see the “persecution” as validating their faith and righteousness: “If we’re being persecutied, we must be doing something right!” Not. Sometimes it just means you’re being a jerk and getting called on it. Not sure if that dynamic is at work here, but I’ve sure seen it before.
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I completely agree. My first was why not simply move the bible study?
I also thought about 1 Tim 2:1-2, where the goal for Christians in praying for government is to be able to live quietly in godliness and holiness. What would the godly thing be here–to loudly challenge the local authorities and cause a national ruckus, to quietly find a new place to meet, carpool to the bible study (as suggested above), or find a way to serve, rather than provoke, neighbors?
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Steve S –
That is the goal to build His church within our circle of influence (our neighborhood) and build biblical community. That is where God has lead me and my family – to be the church wherever we are.
My prayer is for more of that to happen all over the place!
Great point to bring up. Thanks
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Let me suggest that you google the phrase “San Diego Bible Study†and note the pages and pages of Christians and conservatives turning this story into one of the biggest viral news stories of the year.
336,000 hits when I tried it.
Christians are being persecuted.
Home Bible studies are being fined or stopped.
IMonk, you have written before on American Evangelical Persecution Complex.
Of course, this is Obama’s America.
The end is near. (You may need to get into the comments for that one.)
And “Obama IS The Antichrist! Don’t Take The Mark!”
With some of these guys, if their dog coughs a hairball, they’ll bring out their Bible for chapter-and-verse PROOF that The Hairball fulfills such-and-such Prophecy and The End Times Are Upon Us (TM).
When all you have is a hammer, EVERYTHING looks like a nail.
From the San Diego Channel 10 reference (itself part of The Vast Conspiracy — “THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS!”), this sounds like a disgruntled neighbor, a pointy-haired bureaucrat anxious to Enhance Revenue, and a LOT of overreaction. Might be seeing it on the next South Park or two; overreactions are funny as long as you’re not the guy it’s happening to.
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Excellent post.
#8 should be a general rule.
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I heard this story break on a right-wing talk show I don’t normally listen to. Sheesh. Anyway, our church has grown from 60 to 600 in 12 years and we’re directly across the street from city hall. They watch us change rolls of toilet paper. Parking became a major issue when we built a larger sanctuary. There are residential streets we can’t park on, etc. But it can be worked out, and loving one’s neighbor will go a long way in this world.
Some of the demands of us over the years from the city would make a great comedy show. Deputy Fife kind of stuff. I’ve sat in on some pretty bizarre council meetings.
Another thing to ponder is our concept of a local church. Wouldn’t it be nice if everybody walked to the study because they WERE the neighbors? Or at least if they lived within a couple of blocks?
p.s. I like your emoticon avoidance technique on #8. 8)
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Re: Local government response– Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity. Also, if it was the end of the month, he was probably in a tizzy to make his fine quota, and he overstepped.
As for the rest, I live halfway across the country so am not about to express an opinion…aside from agreeing with #8, not just for Christians, but for any subculture/minority. Somewhere along the line a lot of Americans forgot how to play nicely with the other children, assuming we learned in the first place.
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Imonk,
This is one of the reasons I left the institutional church and have gathered with believers outside the church walls. We use each others homes all the time to gather and to do exactly what your #8 above says.
It is amazing how much others tolerate when you enter their world and lend a loving hand, and of course talk to them too.
Thanks Brother!
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This was good. I hope you leave it up. It really seems it is more about the neighbors than anything else, but the government does bear responsibility in their response to the issue. They should have told the neighbors ‘Fix it yourself.’ Instead, they overreacted, probably it was a single person thinking of sticking it to the group, and they ended up getting screwed. It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.
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What I get here is that you have:
1) The obviously ridiculous county response
2) The Pastor- I’m reserving judgment
3) The neighborhood- which most of the Christian/conservative press is ignoring.
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I’m for #8 as well (and 1-7). In our hometown in Canada we had a man holding “church” services in a park. He used very loud amplification, the music and his preaching style were very aggressive. This was in a heavily populated area. All of the neighbors and city officials consistently said they had no problem with him holding these meetings, every week if he wanted. They just wanted him to turn the volume down, and eventually had to take action to force him since he was so stubborn. He, and others in the Christian victim movement, turned it into a big persecution deal. Sad and embarrassing. There are ALWAYS two sides to every story.
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I live in SoCal (L.A. area) and it’s my understanding that San Diego county, especially the suburbs are very politically conservative. So I find it funny that some are trying to paint this as part of “Obama’s America.”
I heard about this story yesterday from a woman at church (who I know listens to a lot of conservative talk radio). It’s good that I get a little more perspective here.
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From an IM Lurker:
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I see this as a financially bankrupt state looking for any excuse to get more revenue before it has to go hat-in-hand to Obama for bailout money so that they can say, “Well, we tried to raise the money!” This is not about persecution. According to the local news story I heard last night, it wasn’t even a neighbor who complained but a visitor to one of the neighbors.
Part of living in a neighborhood is having to put up with the eccentricities of neighbors and realizing that they have to put up with yours. Even in a cul de sac, parking congestion for a couple hours one night a week is workable (especially if it happens on schedule, the same night each week), as long as they don’t block their neighbors’ driveways or the entire road. That’s just part of the give-and-take of a neighborhood.
If the pastor has a good relationship with his neighbors, I’m amazed this came up at all. If he doesn’t, I’m amazed it took so long for this issue to come up.
Pax Christi, y’all!
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Would it be too much to ask for those who come to the Bible study to carpool? Oh, man. What am I saying? Americans are too busy for that! 🙂
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This post may not be long for this world. Enjoy now.
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Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
(Mat 5:25 KJV)
What you do speaks so loud that I cannot hear what you say.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Nice perspective Imonk. I wonder if they studied that “love thy neighbor” passage of the Bible while parking up the cul-del sac. Not to fully excuse the zoning bureaucrat, but the whole context is needed here.
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I vote for number 8 –
My Pastor during a sermon focused on Christians as “salt”, told the congregation that a good measurement of our proper relation with the world around us would be to ask whether our neighbors would miss us if we moved. There are so many Christians and even Churches that would find their neighbors saying at best, barely know them, and at worst, goodbye and good riddance, and that is a tragic indictment, IMO.
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