As we were discussing the subject of “Can We Be Too God-Centered?,” I remembered an excellent book I’d read a couple of years ago: Heaven Is A Place On Earth: Why Everything You Do Matters To God by Dr. Michael Wittmer.
I contacted Dr. Wittmer and he graciously agreed to a blog interview here at Internet Monk.com. Check out the interview, leave your comments and check out both of Dr. Wittmer’s books. Here’s the brief bio he provided.
“Mike Wittmer is Professor of Systematic Theology at Grand Rapids Theological Seminary. Grand Rapids is the home of Rich DeVos, who owns the Orlando Magic, who bounced Cleveland from the NBA playoffs. Mike grew up in Northeast Ohio, and has been waiting his entire life for Cleveland to win a championship. Now, thanks to his Christian neighbor, the ordeal continues. Mike distracts himself from his cursed teams by spending time with his wife, Julie, and their three young children.”
1) Dr. Wittmer, it’s great to have you on board for the IM audience today. We’ve had a vigorous discussion on the subject of your first book and I immediately thought of you as we explored this subject of the relationship between Christianity’s view of creation and its view of God.
How would you identify the typical evangelical misunderstanding of the relationship between heaven and earth, God and human beings?
Many evangelicals think too little of God’s physical creation. They wrongly suppose that matter doesn’t matter or worse, that matter is the matter. This leads them to suppose that their spiritual soul is good and their physical body is bad and that a spiritual heaven is good and this physical earth is bad. So salvation becomes escapism. The goal of life is to slough off this body and troubled planet and go to heaven, where their divine-like souls can twinkle and shine forever. Of course, this is precisely what the Gnostics believed, but as I show in Heaven Is a Place on Earth, there is not one verse of Scripture which supports this view. Instead, the biblical hope, as N.T. Wright explains so well in Surprised by Hope, is the restoration of this creation.
2) An atheist might say something like this: Christianity claims that God is infinite in every way. This necessarily means that human life has no real value, since all value and importance belongs to God. Therefore, at the core of Christianity is a kind of self-hatred, i.e. you must hate yourself and do away with yourself so that God alone can matter forever. Why would anyone want to be part of a religion that zeroes out the significance of everything human?
Some evangelical leaders unwittingly support this idea when they leave the impression that God is selfish. They say that God exists solely for his own glory. He is like a cosmic vacuum cleaner, sucking up all the glory that we are obligated to give him. While they are right to say that the infinite God is the most real and valuable being in the universe, they are wrong to suggest that God is selfish.
Because God is Triune, a community of self-giving lovers, he is unable to be selfish. Just as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit sacrificially serve the others within the Godhead, so they create new others—you and me—to love. God did not have to create us, but given who God is—a community of self-giving lovers—it’s not shocking that he would do so.
Here’s the point: God is committed both to his glory (because God is one essence) and to our flourishing (because God is three persons who necessarily love the other). So God’s infinity is not an obstacle to my value, but because the most valuable being created and cares about me, I have real value. God’s infinite value does not cancel my finite value, rather it establishes it.
I wonder if an atheist can make a similar claim to human value. It seems that if there is no God and if this life is all there is, then we and whatever we do doesn’t ultimately count for much.
3)How would you relate these two ideas so that one does not overwhelm the other:
We are to glorify God in all things; therefore, how do you glorify God by drinking orange juice?
Answer a) We glorify God by not thinking about orange juice, but by thinking about God as the creator of orange juice. b) We glorify God by enjoying the orange juice.
I don’t like (a) at all. How can you enjoy your glass of orange juice if you’re not even thinking about it as you drink it? David Naugle told me recently that another esteemed evangelical leader so emphasizes God the Giver that he leaves the impression that we aren’t allowed to enjoy his gifts. We can’t enjoy orange juice because we like it, but must see through it to God above. Personally, I think we bring glory to God when we enjoy the juice and thank him for it. It’s not that complicated!
4) How does worship contribute to the right understanding of the relationship of God to the ordinary activities of life?
I wrote my dissertation on Niebuhr’s Christ and Culture, and I concluded that we need to combine his “Christ above culture†and “Christ the transformer of culture†models. Christ above culture reminds us of the supernatural/natural distinction—that though we exist entirely on the natural level we will never be satisfied until we know and love God. This will keep us from the temptation of idolatry as we work to redeem culture and creation. Everything matters—because Christ is Lord of all, but not everything matters equally. Worship reminds us that the kingdom of God is the pearl of great price, worth more than anything else in the world (Matt. 13:45-46), and then it sends us into the world as yeast to transform it for our Lord (Matt. 13:33).
5) How would you counsel someone who said they were changing their major from engineering to theology because they wanted to glorify God with their lives?
I would inquire about their motivation. Do they think they will glorify God less as an engineer? If so, they don’t understand the Christian worldview. Every so often I meet students who come to seminary from this wrong, Platonic motivation. Actually, it’s a big reason why I decided to enter the ministry when I was in high school. So God can use wrong motives for good, but it’s best to clear this up, as I do with my students, and assure them that they may well bring glory to God as a pastor, but they may bring him just as much glory in a secular field. I teach them to find their calling by asking What am I good at?; What do I enjoy doing? And what does the world need? If you can find where these lines intersect, you can know that whatever you do is a calling from God, whether that is preaching a sermon or drawing a blueprint.
6) Someone once said that we ought not try to be more religious than God. Bonhoeffer enigmatically wrote about “religionless Christianity.” Are these ideas useful?
I have said that Jesus is 100% God and 100% human. He is 0% angel. So Jesus did not come to turn us into angels who are constantly engaged in spiritual activities, but he came to enable us to thrive in our human lives. The Christian faith is an earthly, material faith. The physical world is both the object of God’s creation and the scene of his redemption. There is no salvation without a physical incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection. So yes, evangelicals who sing the Platonic line (and they are many) are ironically attempting to be more spiritual than God. This was the Corinthian problem. They thought they were too spiritual to have sex (1 Cor. 7) and believe in the resurrection (1 Cor. 15). Paul told them that they are so spiritual that they are no longer Christian! (1 Cor. 15:12-17).
I’m not sure that we know enough about what Bonhoeffer meant to say whether we agree with him, but I do think that some are appropriating a similar idea in dangerous ways. The declaration “Everything is spiritual†is true if we mean that everything in the world matters in God’s kingdom, but it’s dangerously false if it is used to flatten the distinction between the natural and supernatural realms. Gathering for corporate worship is not the same as having a conversation in a coffee shop; reading Scripture is not the same as reading Charles Dickens; and prayer is not the same as twittering. If we forget the transcendent value of God, we will also lose the value of everything else. If everything is spiritual, then nothing is.
7) Have Catholics, in general, done better in articulating and practicing the relationship of God and creation than Protestants?
I think that Catholics have been just as influenced by Plato as Protestants. The Catholic hope is for the beatific vision, an unmediated gaze into the glory of God which apparently happens in some heavenly state. I may have missed it, but I am not aware that the Roman Catholic Church has done much with the biblical hope of a new earth, at least in comparison to what we find in the Kuyperian tradition. Historically, the Reformational worldview first took root in Luther, who rebelled against the Catholic dualism (celibacy trumps marriage; poverty trumps money) when he renounced his monastic vows and all attempts at a higher “spiritual†life and became an ordinary, married pastor. Since Protestants from the beginning had a creation-affirming impulse, I’m reluctant to say that Catholics have a leg up on this one.
8] Tell us about your other book and about any other projects you are involved in?
My latest book, Don’t Stop Believing: Why Living Like Jesus Is Not Enough, attempts to bring some biblical sanity to the emergent/conservative conversation. I address the big questions that many people are asking, questions about salvation, other religions, hell, homosexuality, Scripture, and truth. Each chapter begins with the conservative extreme that I grew up with, presents the understandable emergent reaction, but then shows how many of them react too far. I don’t argue for middle ground between emergent and conservative extremes but call the church to embrace what is right in each. We must love like the liberals say and value right doctrine like the conservatives are known for. As John writes: his command is to believe in the Son and to love one another (1 John 3:23). It’s not an either/or but a both/and.
My next projects are still in the planning stage, but I may try my hand at an evangelical assessment of Karl Barth and/or a book which explores how we might keep our faith in a secular and pluralistic world. I haven’t yet found an 80’s pop song title to appropriately cheapen the content of either project, but I’m hoping that something will pop into my head before I’m finished. Everyone needs a shtick, and though I hit on mine by accident, now that I’ve started I feel pressure to keep it going. At least my books come with a soundtrack!
The Internet Monk Archives 
Some evangelical leaders unwittingly support this idea when they leave the impression that God is selfish. They say that God exists solely for his own glory. He is like a cosmic vacuum cleaner, sucking up all the glory that we are obligated to give him. — Dr Wittmer
Isn’t that the same “bloated spider” analogy that Lewis uses to describe Satan in the preface to The Screwtape Letters?
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ok great: not many are reading this anymore so I can be a bit piggy!!! I have been reading this over trying to figure out why some are having difficulty with Sunday morning worship.
Years ago my husband and I made a commitment that we would go to ‘church’ on Sunday unless we were (as we say) throwing up. Why? It is a spiritual discipline. It’s how we follow Jesus. We do spiritual disciplines because we are His disciples.
So on Sunday we go. If we are at Gethsemani we go to Mass. If we are with his family we are Methodist. Some times we are Baptist or non-demons but mostly we are Lutherans.
We do other spiritual disciplines ie daily Lectio, morning prayer and compline. We help the poor and give service where we see the need. We are great family celebrationist!!! We seek guidance from Sp. direction and Spiritual friendship. We spend time in solitude and silence and centering prayer. We seek retreat opportunities. I teach centering prayer to those who want to learn and we are both involved with small group ministry. He has a full time job and I have a part time small business. We do church work for our congregation. There is more but I have said enough.
Why? It’s what makes our lives work. We love the Lord and desire to be His followers. I can’t wait to get to church on Sunday. To worship and receive Him in the Eucharist. I can’t imagine why someone wouldn’t want to be there.
Peace,
Sue
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Ed,
I am not looking for anything. Sorry if you took it that way. I don’t think your behavior is aberrant. I am just curious as to why you find Sunday worship unsatisfactory and also trying to be helpful.
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Sue,
Since you are obviously looking for the “a-ha” hole in my spiritual life that would somehow explain my aberrant behavior I will be a snot and not answer.
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Ed,
By Spiritual practice I meant things like your prayer life, study, service, self denile and so on. Although I enjoyed the Bio. I like hearing peoples’ Spiritual journey and also their religious journey.
I am glad you are in touch with your Church and Pastors and continue your church work. May I suggest looking for answers regarding worship outside your SBC tradtion. I am not suggeting that the SBC has anything wrong. I am saying sometimes we need to open up to see some new realities that give us new insights insteed of looking at it with the same eyes.
May God Bless your journey.
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“What is your Spiritual practice foundation?” – Sue.
You asked, so let me see if I can answer your question (with apologies for hijacking this thread with my life story).
I was raised in the Southern Baptist church from birth, primarily in Birmingham and Montgomery Alabama. My father was an ordained deacon and the son of an ordained Southern Baptist missionary / later pastor. I spent my entire life up until leaving home for college in the Sunday AM/PM and Wednesday night life of a typical SBC kid growing up in the sixties and seventies. I am eternally grateful and appreciative of the example of my parents and for all my parents did in exposing me to the gospel. I chose to give my life to Christ of my own accord at the age of 11. When I married after college, my wife and I maintained an active membership in various SBC churches for the first 22 years of our marriage. As I said earlier, I walked away from regular Sunday attendance about a year ago.
I was ordained as a deacon at the age of 26. I taught adult Sunday school of about 5 years and spent about 10 years in various choirs in the churches I have belonged in addition to serving as a deacon, a myriad of committee, and other volunteer positions. I’m told I am a gifted high tenor. I was one of the “in” folks at the highest levels of lay service – you know, one of the ones asked to open Sunday night service in prayer and such.
I worshiped as a member of a Southern Baptist church in Germany for 3+ years. I have likewise worshiped with Nepali Christians while doing volunteer work there for a month in 2007. At various times in my life I have participated in worship in Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist and non-denominational services while visiting friends or after moving to a new area and looking for a church. My wife and I have tended to gravitate back to that which we were raised on, namely the SBC.
Don’t confuse my lack of Sunday AM attendance with a lack of appreciation of biblical authority. I continue to maintain strong ties with my church and meet weekly with one of the pastoral staff to receive his counsel on the questions I have and to serve in other ways (engineering design work for church projects, maintenance, video tape production of church events, etc.). Right now I am rewriting the administrative procedures for my church’s fine arts school.
You seem to think I have some chip on my shoulder and think anyone that is a regular, upstanding member of a church in good standing is somehow out of touch with my “enlightened” views. If I have given that impression – forgive me. That is not my intention. This is not about someone else’s journey; it is about my journey and I only want to express the frustration, confusion, insights and questions I encounter. I am thankful for this forum to express them.
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Also Ed,
I think we sometimes need to examine ourselves to see if we have an authority problem. I say this because it is something I need to keep constantly before me. If we can not be obedient to the Church authority that God has placed over us then we have little chance of being obedient to the Lord.
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Ed,
I am called to worship God. I can do that alone or in commuity. Part of that call is in community.
I understand your mental frustration regarding the division of the Church. Which worship is “right”. I do not know. God loves variety. Look around at His creation.
Corporate worship is the basis of my Spiritual practice. God created us as social beings. My South American neighbor says their is no word for being alone in his native tongue. There is also need for silence and solitude and service to others and so on. For me weekly corporate worship is the foundation for the rest. What is your Spiritual practice foundation?
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Thank you for your thoughts Sue. I am glad you enjoy true worship in your experience.
I’m not advocating attending or not, or choosing a different church institution that better suits me over another. I quit a year ago but my wife continues to go with my blessings.
My point is that perhaps there are alternatives to the myriad of denominational Sunday morning events, and that maybe, just maybe, worship is not limited to or confined within the walls of sanctuaries on a predetermined day following a printed agenda.
Open a Saturday paper in any major city and there will be two full pages of “opportunities” for worship. Why is that? Why can’t we, the “Church”, agree on how to do “church”? I am not spiritually capable of divining which is best and choosing one that works for me is more a matter of preference, comfort and feelings rather than discernment. If nothing else, the total amount of money spent on 100 half-empty churches could be better split between 50 full churches with the rest going to do some real good in the world.
Finally, if we are dependent on a group of like-minded individuals to experience worship, then I would submit that there IS a social aspect to it.
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Ed,
No one is forcing you to go to “church” on Sunday morning or any other time. Lots have opted out.
In my tradtion Worship is the basis for the church institution. The Church (Body Of Christ) gathers for Worshiping God. Without that we become a social group, educational group, discussion or support group but not a Religious group.
I am one who kind find lots of fault with institutionalized religion, my own and everybody elses’. I try to put that aside during Worship because I am there with the gathered Body of Christ to Worship Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
If your church institution is not giving you an adequate Worship experience go on some church visits and find one that does. There are plenty to pick from and a great variety. Or you can just stay home.
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j. Michael:
I don’t think you have a problem communicating your point – I think I get it and I agree with you.
From my point of view, part of the difficulty in discussing alternatives to Sunday AM gatherings at the brick-and-mortar places called “church” is that eliminating it would negatively impact the most vocal and learned among us: namely the clergy and their circle of enforcers (deacons, elders, Sunday school teachers, etc.). How else should we expect them to react?
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Yes, the Church is the Body of Christ. I think we were discussing worship not buildings or institusions.
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JMJ,
I, too, have had similar experiences, even when surrounded by people whom I should know.
Patrick, May I borrow your expression about “venerating a less than full monstrance.” I love it.
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Kozak;
While he has some good ideas Frank Viola goes a bit overboard, even to the point of suggesting that Jethro’s advice to Moses to set up a heirarchical structure was pagan, and not in accord with God’s will. So I tend to take Mr. Viola with a grain of salt.
But the key here is that Biblically it is the people who are the church, not a building where we meet from 10:30 to 12:00 every Sunday morning. And those who don’t understand that are the most likely to go off on someone because they are not “in church”, “fellowshipping” with the back of someone’s head for 1-1/2 hours.
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J. Michael,
I am sorry about your unfortunate situation with the bar idea and the deacons. Churches can hurt people more than any other institution. We feel we have a vested interest in ‘our church’ and when other don’t agree with us it can be hurtful. I know I have been there big time.
I understand what you are saying. I would say people have been worshiping far longer than 1700 years. The what and the how may differ but humans keep serching for “God”. We worship what we perceive as “God” according to our tradtions. The need to Worship is part of the human package. It is how this “God ” created us.
If right now in your life you find meeting with a friend for coffee meaningful then do it. I would only ask you to be open. Open to new possiblities. Open to the Spirit. Ask God to help you forgive these deacons who harmed you. Ask Him for healing. I am not suggesting you go back to a ‘worship box’. That doesn’t seem to have meaning to you. Where God will lead you I do not know. I only know it will be good.
Peace and Love,
Sue
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First of all, the New Testament emphasizes community, the “church” being the Bride of Christ, not each one of us. Corporate worship is a given, meetings an integral part of living the faith.
Sounds like you guys need to check out Frank Viola, who is churning out book after book decrying our current worship practices, and advocating for the elimination of pastors and a house-church model.
Personally, I can remember several sermons that spoke to me directly in my hour of need, once helping me to overcome suicidal despair.
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JMJ, totally understand what you mean. I think this is what comes from defining “church” as something we ATTEND rather than something we ARE.
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Well J. Michael Jones you are not ruffling my feathers. I am with you on this one. I was raised going to church every sunday and wednesday nights and cannot recall now any edification I ever got from church. Like you I do not think it entirely bad and sometimes maybe good, but I cannot get from scripture what the relevance of it is and no one has been able to explain it to me.
I was going to relate some experience I’ve had in church but I would just be repeating what you said. I will say that none of the comments thus far have showed me a strong biblical bases for what they discribe as worship on Sundays.
It seems to me that we are called to worhsip God with everything we do, everyday of the week, with every waking moment.
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JMJ, I think you and I are using a different type of question to ask the same fundamental thing. I do think I misunderstood you at first, my bad.
Your bar story is telling and sort of depressing; the idea was and is good and clearly after the example of Jesus Himself (you know that) and it got sunk for no good reason (you know that, too).
Coming at it from a Catholic perspective, I’m always having to intentionally ask myself about how ‘portable’ the Eucharist (the main, and to most Catholics including myself, incredulous, source and center of our worship) is – and what it means to partake of it in fellowship with God and other Christians. As I try to sympathize with Scripture (neither on the mountain or in the temple, etc.), the flaws of both Catholic and Protestant emphases re: worship and eucharist are plain, but so is the fact that Catholics and Protestants seem to view worship as accomplishing a different purpose.
Obviously, the Catholic idea of ultimate worship doesn’t transpose to any random bar without some serious (and unacceptable) theological editing about what the Eucharist ‘really is’ and our relationship to it; but forgetting the idea that God is with us ‘whenever two or three are gathered in my name’ (Matt. 18:20), bars included, is to venerate at less than a full monstrance, so to speak.
And I think you’re onto something with dualism and emotionalism – the tendency to only ‘allow’ certain expressions as long as they’re ‘authorized’ by pre-existing priorities of corporate worship owes a lot to an ontology that suspects man without God’s permission as, and always, producing evil.
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JMJ, you’re not the only one.
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I’m going to make one more attempt to explain my point as I don’t think I’ve been an effective communicator. I will make this the last comment here as I do not want to side-track IM’s great posting. I will also try to relate this back to the question of the material, as I do think they are connected.
First I must define the semantics. I will use “worship†(small w) for the worship in Romans12:1. I will define “Worship†(capital W) in the following: A Sunday morning event that has evolved over the past 1700 years. It typically begins at 10 or 11 AM at a building called the “church†(different from the New Testament “ekkelesiaâ€) and usually consist of a time of group singing, taking up the offering, followed by a lecture (if you are really lucky it might be an interesting lecture), the sacraments once a quarter, or every Sunday. Then there’s more singing and then closure (alter call if you’re Baptist). The singing is targeted in creating an emotional, existential experience.
I see this Worship box as a product of culture and amoral. It is neither good nor bad in itself but in how it is used. If it interferes with true worship, or ministry then it can be a hindrance.
It is this Worship box that you can not define from scripture. It is a product of human culture. This particular box did not exist prior to the forth century, a least not in this present form. I’m not advocating doing away with it as I think 98% of presently churched people prefer the Worship model. I’m only advocating being open to this out-of-the-box (Worship box) experience.
I think IMonk has already done a series on what is worship, so I don’t want to beat a dead horse.
My point is that my greatest worship experiences have been in the coffee shop setting. For example, recently meeting with a brother who’s son is addicted to drugs. Praying together about it and really supporting one another very honestly and candidly (something this brother said could never happen in the Worship box . . . where he has to keep the façade of being spiritual).
It seems like any time I challenge the Worship box, I see the hair on the back of people’s necks start to stand up. It really pisses people off and I’m not sure why.
I will close with this illustration.
I was a deacon in a Christian Church in Marquette, Michigan. In our deacons meeting, there was a growing discussion of the un-churched in town and how to reach them.
After a lot of prayer and thought about this, I made a proposal. “Allow me to create an alternative church experience in a bar.â€
I had surveyed the town and saw that the bars were busting at the seams on the weekend. I met with the owner of the busiest bar (Margaritaville) and told them of my plans to have a church meeting there. They gave me the use of one of their rooms.
I met back with the deacons and told them that I would like to hold this meeting, probably on Friday or Saturday nights in the bar. The meeting would have discussions, Biblical teaching, hymn singing, sacraments . . . and all under the umbrella of guidance and discipline of the church deacon board.
The pastor was a little interested in the idea. The other deacons were puzzled at best but mostly upset and finally very angry. The head deacon spoke, “So you would require these folks to attend Worship on Sunday?” (the Worship box in other words)
Me: “No. This would be their church. Certainly they could attend the other Sunday morning church service if they wanted . . . but they are not attending it now and I doubt if they want to in the future.â€
Then the deacons got angry and started making suggestions that I was unspiritual or that I didn’t have my eyes on the Lord or that I had a “drinking problem†. . . you name it.
The deacon’s meeting ended with the head deacons saying, “I see this bar thing as just another sorry excuse for not attending church.†(Worship box) The idea died that day and that church never made any headway in reaching the unchurched.
I honestly think that Jesus would be more comfortable in my bar-church than in most Worship Boxes.
I don’t mean to ruffle any more feathers than I have, and so far it seems if I’m the only one on this page, but I will leave you with some honest questions. These are not veiled accusations but things to ponder.
Could the Worship box be an idol in some situations?
When I grew up the major reason for Worship was penitence. We went to win God’s favor. Could this be the reason that some of the masses go now? Do they feel guilty if they miss a Sunday and stay home?
Is Worship (the transcendental emotional feeling of effective music) so appealing because we do think in Dualistic terms? The material, having coffee with someone, appears not to be worship because it is material?
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“I may be simple minded but I go to Sunday Worship to Worship God. I don’t go to ‘get anything out of it’.”
Yes. I realize now the church we recently left after years had morphed into services being a mix of musical performances without much “audience” participation and a Sunday school type of lesson. My worship was in my Sunday school class and our small group meetings.
This was not why I left but obviously it was time.
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btw i believe is “by the way”
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Dear J. Michael,
I may be simple minded but I go to Sunday Worship to Worship God. I don’t go to ‘get anything out of it’. The communion is with the Lord. How wonderful be there in the company of others who too want to Worship the Trinity. To say thank you, to Praise Him and to receive His forgiveness and Love. To hear the gospel proclaimed and preached.
I am sorry for you that you have not experience this in your btw church. (I don’t know what btw stands for).
I think that it is not what the Bible says but what it implies. Being Jewish in Jesus time was exclusionary. Jesus opens the Kingdom to everyone. So it was about getting in not opting out.
Read the story of the eunich in Acts. He was Jewish, wealthy, powerful and educated. He traveled all the way to Jerusalm to worship in the Temple but wasn’t allowed in because he was not whole. (Disformed, unclean). Phillip tells him everyone is invited into Christ’s kingdom. He says,”So what’s stopping me from being Baptized?” I imagine Phillip taking a long gasp!!! “Look there is water”. Water in the dessert? What a test of Phillip’s faith. Was he going to practice what he preached? He did. Even though it went again all his cultural conditioning.
So it’s about the priviledge of Worshiping along with others for me. If your btw isn’t the place for you (athough it may be for others. Don’t discount that) find another church.
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Michael, you might’ve pointed this link out to your readers for all I remember, but you might be interested in the post God does not magnify himself.
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…Sue Kephart…your STILL drinking coffee??
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The pastors in my town are on a rotation of writing a little weekly article in our local paper. I always give mine a title from 70″s rock. Thought I was the only one who thought like that.
DSY
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Patrick, you are welcome to convince me of what worship it is by your definition, but it can’t be based on hearsay, tradition or culture. It must have some other basis for me to be won over.
Do a word search for worship in the New Testament.
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“For me personally, I would much rather have a deep, two-way theological discussion and a personal talking about real life issues in a very candid way over a cup of coffee. I do need other believers and I need them very much.”
Now not to derail what you’re saying, but is this act ‘faith’ or a ‘work’?
It seems to me that ‘personal talking about real life issues’ or ‘theological discussions’ have very little to do with Jesus and a whole lot to do with people just getting on with being alive and filling their days with stuff – which there’s absolutely nothing wrong with, but I don’t see how to describe a faith that could inform those activities beyond their just being perfectly normal ‘human’ things to do.
Worship is, as I understand it, dedicated to the relationship between us and God. Coffee-talk.. isn’t?
But then again, what if I’m stubbornly being wrong here?
The disciples shared meals AND worship with Jesus – and here’s where the debate dies and speculative theology simply can’t fill the void – at the end of it, could they meaningfully tell the difference?
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Sue, thanks for responding. I still don’t see the traditional Sunday morning worship service spelled out in that commandment. Look at what Jesus said about the Sabbath.
In second part of your statement It think you are misunderstanding my point, and I’ll take blame for that.
The reason that the Sunday morning worship service, btw which I’ve faithfully attended for 50 years (but I may regret on my deathbed), disappoints me is for this very reason. It is cold sterile and pretend. We do need each other . . . much more than looking at the back of each other’s heads. We need real communion with one another.
For me personally, I would much rather have a deep, two-way theological discussion and a personal talking about real life issues in a very candid way over a cup of coffee. I do need other believers and I need them very much.
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One thing that, at least in my experience, seems to really reinforce the Platonic tendencies in the Church is the lyrics to the songs we sing. From “I’ll fly away†to the “countdown†song, it appears to be everywhere sometimes.
I wonder though, as people who usually have no control over what music is played in the services, what can/should we do about it?
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J. Michael Jones,
What does “Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy” mean to you? Personally I think only in America can we think that means something about us ( or Me). Yes, Jesus said, “the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath”. That isn’t about us. It is saying God doesn’t need us but we need Him. We nee a day of rest. Resting in God.
Are we really so individualistic that we don’t need each other either? This Americanization of Christianity is problematic to me. When we are saying “I” can worship without a community always, the culture is ego centered American not Christian. Stop reading American into Scripture.
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I simply ask to support the corporate worship model being superior from scripture rather than from tradition or Christian culture. Convince me.
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Being liturgical and Eucharistic it has never occured to me that coffee with a friend would replace corporate worship. I just thought of that as being an excuse not to attend church. Like I can worship God on the golf course as well as in a church.
It’s not that having coffee with a friend, especially listening to a friend who needs to talk doesn’t have value but it just isn’t the same thing. Not even close. If some churchs’ worship services are resembling coffe with a friend then maybe those churches need to take a look at what they are doing.
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Though, Anna A, you may have a good plan for after the General Resurrection and the creation of the new Heaven and the new Earth.
After all, a new Earth does seem to indicate that we will be living there in our glorified bodies, and if we’re back on earth, we must be going to do something.
Agreed, if I thought the afterlife was going to consist of listening to a never-ending sermon (and that that constituted the entire reward of the blessed), then I’d be hoping for annihilationism to be true.
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j. Michael Jones:
I agree with Wolf Paul’s assessment. I didn’t mean to imply that corporate worship is always better than a conversation over coffee, only to say that intimate conversation cannot replace corporate worship. I’m thinking of the church leader who, when told by her coffee buddy that she would like to attend her church, replied that she just did. This is a mistake, it seems to me.
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Okay, as a Catholic, I’m asking: what do you think we think we mean by the Beatific Vision?
(And yes, probably nine out of ten modern Catholics would go “Huh?” if you said “Beatific Vision”, but never mind that for the moment).
If it’s a choice between the Hollywood vision of heaven (fluffy white clouds, nice people dressed in white wandering around having a nice time, and a vague avuncular deity – who may actually be represented by a female – presiding benignly in the background but not really taking up much of anyone’s attention), and Dante’s vision of the White Rose of the Blessed and finally the entire created Cosmos circling in joy around the perfect source of Love, then I know which I’m picking 😉
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I, too, have major problems with the Catholic view of the Beatific Vision. That kind of heaven doesn’t appeal to me.
My idea: heading over to see Van Gogh’s latest painting, or Schweizter (sp) playing the newest Bach, or joining the other warriour maidens in battle, etc.
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j. Michael Jones:
On the one hand it does not seem clear to me that Dr Wittmer said that corporate worship is always superior to a coffee shop conversation; he just said they were two different things.
On the other hand, it seems clear when I look at the way he introduces these comparisons, as well as his other comparisons, that what he is talking about is losing the distinction between activities engaged in to further our walk with God, and all other activities. His “Coffee shop conversations” thus stand for generic, “secular” human interaction, like Charles Dickens stands for generic secular literature as opposed to Scripture, etc.
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Imonk, thanks for bringing us with you.
I find it fascinating and, in some ways, reassuring that I (and maybe many others) have traveled a long, perilous and singly journey and ending up at the same place. It was when I discovered the ancient role of Platonic Dualism on the Gnostics, Augustine and the like . . . all the way down to contemporary Evangelicals that I finally understood where I had gone wrong and the pieces came together for the first time.
I may disagree with Dr. Wittmer (unless he could explain himself differently) regarding his response to the “everything is spiritual†challenge. Is a corporate worship service always superior to a conversation in a coffee shop? I do beg to differ.
There are times that an intimate conversation over a cup of java can do more work in our lives or in the purpose of the kingdom of Christ than ten corporate worship events. If you honestly take it back to the New Testament and remain faithful to the text, it would be hard to prove that corporate worship has a certainly mystery. You can read in the New Testament that giving our bodies as a living sacrifice is our reasonable worship. We can read that there is a mystery when two or more are gathered together for Christ’s purpose. But the mystery of corporate worship, which makes it perpetually superior to all other Christian with Christian interactions, I humbly believe, has more to do with human tradition than Biblical mandate or precedence.
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Personally, I really appreciated the second paragraph of his response to question 6, re. “Everything is spiritual” and the danger of flattening the distinction between the natural and the supernatural. Sage wisdom there.
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I enjoyed the interview, Michael and Dr. Wittmer. Thank you. I think my favorite thing that Dr. Wittmer wrote was, “Gathering for corporate worship is not the same as having a conversation in a coffee shop; reading Scripture is not the same as reading Charles Dickens; and prayer is not the same as twittering.” Excellent!
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I think this interview demonstrates the difficulty of the subject. The gospel is both transcendent and incarnational. Holiness without transcendence becomes mere morality (Tillich). Faith without works is dead; works without faith is sin. The church has never managed this balance all that well. The reformers replaced Catholic dualism with protestant dualism – closing monasteries and desecrating religious art while elevating secular culture and isolating spirituality to a personal, internal experience.
My Sunday school teacher today used the third chapter of John to rail against human reason. I sat quietly, thinking over recent iMonk posts. I’m also seeing a rise in revivalistic rhetoric in my church, which questions the salvation of “lazy pew sitters” and ties salvation to participation in service programs, evangelism, and religious activism. I hope to hear more discussion on these topics in the future.
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This book just went straight to the top of my book list … at least my non-fiction book list.
I’ve got to finish The Once and Future King and East of Eden first.
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Happy and Joyous Holy Trinty Sunday to all.
I guess I have a hard time with this self hatred stuff. I mean Jesus commandment is to Love God with our mind, heart and strenght and to love our neighbor as ourself. This implies that we love ourself. Not in some egotistical way but with healthy humility. We are not God but His creatures. He loved each one of us enough to die a terrible death for us. We do have value. A lot of it from God’s point of view.
Also these Gnostic views? I thought the Christian Church settled that pretty early on. I am glad today I celebrate Holy Trinty Sunday. Wish everyone did.
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Already have a copy on order and am looking forward to reading it.
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I’ve read “Don’t Stop Believing” and highly recommend it.
Peace…
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Aw man, just what I needed – another book to read!
But considering I will soon be spending 5 weeks in a hotel half-way around the world I guess that’s a good thing. And I like what I’ve seen so far. So I’ll definitely be checking out “Don’t Stop Believing”.
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And a blessed Trinity Sunday to you, too, Robert 🙂
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Suggestions for 80s songs for the title of a book about keeping faith in a secular and pluralistic world?
“Losing My Religion” by R.E.M. would seem the perfect one here, but that’s actualy 1991 so it’s out.
“Please Please Please Let Me Get What I Want” by the Smiths? “Personal Jesus” by Depeche Mode (the original and still the best, all you Marilyn Manson fans)? “Kids in America” by Kim Wilde? Anything from U2? “Heart and Soul” by T’Pau? “Send Me An Angel” by Real Life? “Kyrie” by Mr. Mister? “Hands to Heaven” by Breathe? “Just Like Heaven” by The Cure?
I don’t know enough about Karl Barth to know what he might have been groovin’ to back in the days of shoulder pads and leg warmers 🙂
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Robert Gills, you’re clearly new here.
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Good interview. Very balanced I thought. [Mod deleted]
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