It’s Father’s Day weekend, one of the Hallmark calendar days, but worth at least some thoughtful consideration. I shared of few memories of my dad on Podcast #145. In this post I’d like to be a bit less reflective and a lot more meddling.
I’ve worked around parents of teenagers my entire adult life. For all but 4 years of my ministry I was a youth ministry specialist in some setting or another. The four years I was a pastor, I was more involved with parents than ever.
I have incredible respect for those who parent teenagers, no matter who they are or what they believe. It’s a brutal job that can crush you into tiny pieces and lift you up to lofty places of joy.
I’ve stood with parents at the casket of teenagers who have died of cancer and accidents.
I’ve been called to the home of a family who just learned that their middle school daughter was on the verge of death from alcohol poisoning.
I’ve sat in the living room as a daughter told her parents she was pregnant. (A girl no one would have believed was sexually active.) I was there when she gave up her twins to adoptive parents.
I’ve taken parents to jail to see their children. I can’t describe that heartbreak.
I’ve watched faithful pastors and wives deal with wayward children who practically destroyed their faith, finances and families.
I raised two kids whom I love and am endlessly proud of, but there were and are places along the way that I felt helpless and a complete failure.
I’ve spent thousands of hours helping parents and teens work through all those problems that families with teenagers inevitably face.
Because of my current ministry, I’ve reviewed painful family histories and interviewed desperate parents looking for anything that would help them somehow reclaim a teenager that was lost, failing or in destructive rebellion.
For whatever reasons, God has put me in the world of teenagers and their families. I never asked for this, but it’s been my assignment.
So on this Father’s Day Weekend, I want to ask some of the questions I’ve never (well, almost never) asked the parents of teenagers. These questions aren’t subtle or academic. They are “gut-level.” They’re real.
Is this advice disguised as rhetoric? A bit, yes. I don’t claim to know much about parenting teenagers. I think the questions have their own wisdom.
(By the way, I know that these questions don’t apply to every parent, and I’m aware that some of you have a philosophy of raising kids that answers all of these issues. I’m also aware that some of you did all the right things, just like the books say, and now you’re wondering why it didn’t work.)
1. Why so much freedom, money, cars, privacy, free time, video games and electronic devices?
My students watch a documentary called “Two Million Minutes.” It contrasts students in China, India and the United States. One of the most obvious differences in these students is that the Indian and Chinese kids- from middle class families- have no cars, little free time, no personal money and conspicuous purchases, little privacy, limited friendships outside of school and a modest amount of electronics.
My conclusion is that American parents view their children as extensions of their own consumer egos. They need for their kids to have everything and they are reluctant to control access to free time or spending.
When I listen to the rebellious teens I sometimes work with talk about what they are going to do when they are back home, they have NO DOUBT that they will be driving, spending, partying and doing whatever they want. They have an unquestioned assumption that their free time and lifestyle or at stake NO MATTER what they have done.
I’ve seen this up close in many instances I can’t share on this forum. But it’s inexplicable. Entitlement is killing our kids. Parents: learn to say No and keep saying it as needed.
2. Do your teenagers clearly see the deepest values in your life, and understand how those values will affect their life? Or do your teenagers see your values as movable and of little real influence in the kind of person you are?
I can tell you that when a teenager who is being told “don’t do X” or “do Y” discovers that you, as a parent, are doing some version of X or really don’t believe in the importance of Y, you’ve got a problem.
Making decisions based around the importance of education when the values of education are obviously not important to you does not escape a teenager. Nor does the implications of what’s on the history bar of your computer as compared to what you tell him/her they shouldn’t be watching.
Your deepest values shouldn’t have to be shouted. Anyone who has lived with you for a month should know them. And they probably do…no matter what you say.
Get this right: A teenager in rebellion against good parenting and the right values is one thing. It happens all the time. But a teenager who concludes that values in life don’t matter because they’ve seen you live without truly anchored values that shape every day of your life is simply doing what you taught them to do.
3. Have you assessed the effects of your own decisions about money, prosperity, freedom, etc. on your child, or have you bought into the lie that kids are just resilient through anything?
Divorces. Relocations. Changing schools. Friends moving away. Financial changes. Church/religion changes. It all has a cumulative effect.
For example, we now know that relocation has a tremendous effect on development. I’ve heard kids narrate what it’s like when mom and dad go from this church to that church. Loss, change, adjustment, starting over. These things aren’t easy. They may be unavoidable, but they are deeply affecting.
4. Do you believe that you are going to tell your teenager what it means to be a normal teenager or an adult? Just where did you pick up that idea?
The trump card in parenting teenagers is held by the teenager. They will decide who or what they want to be. You may decide how the chess match unfolds. You may provide enablement or obstacles. You may have credibility or not. But at the end of the day, your teenager will make their own decision about who they are, and they will make that decision from a mixture of influences over which they alone have control.
You may not like to consider that one web site, one band, one friends can outweigh years of youth ministers, dozens of books, weeks of great camps and experiences. But you have to understand this in the short term so you can play for the long term.
Christian parenting rhetoric is full of the lie of total control. I see it in the comments of this web site all the time. We love to be told that we can be the person who raises a child without any deviation from exactly what we want. There are some of those parents, and they often did a great job with their kids. But don’t forget who, ultimately, made the decision to be the kid mom and dad wanted: the kid.
5. Have you assessed what the wired world means for raising a teenager?
If you are like me, one of the hardest things to do is seeing the implications of technology. Not using it. I use it just fine. I understand technology better than many teenagers. But the implications for how technology shapes the lives of the students I work with? Understanding what it makes possible for them that was much more difficult even a few years ago? There I am very much a novice, though I am learning fast.
For example, I frequently am the person who has to tell a new student that we do not allow students to have cell phones on our campus during school terms. The reaction today is considerably different than it was in the days when I told new students that they could only use the phone once a week for the first 30 days- a rule we still have. The reaction today is all about the fact that young people live in a state of virtual connectedness with everyone. Instant pictures. Instant ability to converse. They are socially, emotionally and mentally wired into the world in a different way than previous generations.
The implications are easier to see when you force teenagers out of that environment. For example, when I tell a class that they are going to write the research component of a paper in the library without computer access, the reaction is explosive. Not because kids can’t read or make note cards. It’s because I am forcing them out of an environment where they can “research” school work and do 5 other things in their personal life at the same time.
This is the functioning equivalent of a teenager living 80% of their life in a world you have no access to, and you’ve bought into it on ideas like “they need this for safety.” I don’t want to sound like an Amish Luddite here, but awareness of your teenager’s world is always going to be an uphill project. If you are naive about the wired world and how deeply your student lives in it, don’t complain when you discover things are very, very different than you ever expected.
6. What are you doing/being that creates any desire in your children to be a responsible, Christian adult? Particular a disciple of Jesus seeking the Kingdom of God and its righteousness above all else?
If you believe Christian kids and youth ministers are going to create the desire to be a disciple of Jesus, I hope you are right. The fact is that some of you are at some megachurch right now that might as well be the set for Saved II, and you have no idea that you are literally helping your kids abandon evangelicalism and perhaps Christianity. Why is this? Because instead of being a deep-water swimmer with Jesus yourself, you want your kid to go to the Jesus mall and get excited what they see in the stores. You hope they will want to be like the other “cool kids” at church. Good grief. This is Christ’s way? Wake up and start living a life that can’t be explained except for the fact that Jesus is your Lord and you follow him. Kids are incredibly cynical about all the flash in the pan glitz of evangelicalism. Only clueless adults buy it.
7. Are you ready to let God be God and let yourself off the hook?
God’s path for some kids is the hard way, full of some really stupid and painful choices. Do your best, then let God take over. Be a parent, but don’t be a martyr. Your kids won’t be saved by you punishing yourself. Your sins as a parent were placed on Jesus. Don’t be a slacker about it, but take God’s grace and move on. Your teenager may have to take God’s hard and narrow road and it may not end up anywhere close to the nice middle-class life you wanted. Let God and your child have that freedom….because you don’t control them anyway. Have your cry and learn to live with love and limits. That’s where we all are.
The Internet Monk Archives 
THank you for this beautiful post – my oldest children are 13 and 11, and some nights i go to bed utterly exhausted from listening to my 13 yo son talk talk talk to me, following me around all day, talking worldview, philosophy, the novel he’s writing… I love that little guy, but honestly, the teen years (starting around 11) have been sooooo stretching! Some nights i just go to bed scared – it’s like i’ve paddled out to surf a huge wave, and then realize “i have no idea how to do this!” But God *is* the parenting manual, and i’m learning to listen to Him minute by minute – because i need Him minute by minute… This is by far more intense than the toddler/baby stage, but also so fun – so intense, so filled with drama and learning and openness. I don’t know how long it stays this way, and i know i don’t have what it takes, long term. I’m trusting that God will give me manna every day…
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Growing Kids God’s Way was / is a program / class for parents that was promoted as “follow this and your kids will turn out as good Christiansâ€. This is how it was marketed by many and many of the graduates claimed this. — Ross
Say no more, Ross, I know the drill: Do X, Y, Z and Everything Will Come Out Perfect In Every Way Just Like Us. (And if it doesn’t, It’s ALL Your Fault — “Secret Sin (TM)” and all that.)
To be honest “Focus on the Family†was very good in this area till they decided to try and “win†the culture war and ran the rest of their ministry off the rails 15 or so years ago. — Ross
Or as IMonk put it when they released that “Open Letter from 2012” shortly before the election, “Until fear of homosexuals drove them off the cliff with their constituency in the car”.
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To John A.’s suggestion of music + sports for child rearing and including these as integral to the church– there’s something good in that.
To the question what about a teen who doesn’t want to go to church, would you make them? We ran into that one hard with our oldest. We had to consider his viewpoint because it was valid. Our large evangelical church somehow managed to have 3 different youth ministers during his 4 years of high school. The 2nd minister was there his middle two years, and all I could get out of my son was “I don’t like him,” when asking him why he didn’t want to go to church. It came down to us having to respect our son’s opinion and letting him do his own thing which included visiting other churches with his friends in various denominations, but often it meant letting him stay home. His senior year, he started dating a girl out of the blue from a different church and has been going to her church for nearly 4 years.
The years he was out of church had me praying and trembling, but always encouraged by God’s faithfulness to send Christians into my son’s life. He had over 50% Christian teachers in his large public high school which I believe was a God thing. We didn’t let his non-church participation become a wedge between us.
Maybe there are times when making the child go to church is the best thing, but especially when their desire to drop out is not in the context of rebellion, we should do our best to figure out where it is coming from. That is part of respect, as I see it. There may be people who as youngsters were abused by clergy who sent their parents a similar message but were never heard. Not that I’d go looking for abuse where it isn’t, just saying it’s a crazy world we live in, and our kids need to be listened to.
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GKGW? That sounds harder to pronounce than “GLBTâ€.
Growing Kids God’s Way was / is a program / class for parents that was promoted as “follow this and your kids will turn out as good Christians”. This is how it was marketed by many and many of the graduates claimed this. There are a non trivial number of drop outs and most of the enthusiastic graduates’ kids were still pre-teen as far as I could tell. So I’ve always felt that there was a lot of self selecting going on when the praises of the program were being sung. And I personally saw no difference between the kids who’s parents when through the program and those that did not.
I got the impression from Anita’s post that the program worked for her. Great. But I felt like we were being invited to a version of the “Stepford Wives” when we were being recruited. Or maybe Amway.
Since we were “recruited” and declined 14 years or so ago there has been a lot of controversy over the methods taught and the person running the program. Lots of people in his organization have resigned over the years.
But my basic problem with GKGW and many other Christian approaches to kids is they have a formula to solve all issues. They don’t seem to read the bible and come to the conclusion that we are all unique individuals with individual needs.
To be honest “Focus on the Family” was very good in this area till they decided to try and “win” the culture war and ran the rest of their ministry off the rails 15 or so years ago.
Oh, well, I’ve talked to long.
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“We need to start treating children who reach the age of 13 or 14 as adults who have responsibilities, all the while teaching children how to become responsible adults.”
Why wait? What is it about children of any age that says they should not have some responsibilities or be considered a contributing part of the family? Why wait to start listening and talking honestly to our kids until they are already rebelling?
My parents expected that I would use critical thinking and decision making skills from an early age, while they were still intimately involved in my life, and allowed me to fall down when I was still close to the ground and they were around to pick me up. It gave me a sense of my own ability to make good decisions, and an idea of the consequences if I make bad ones. It also supported continued communication with them, which was vital in the teen years, and something many other teens around me seemed to lack.
My daughter just turned five, and I already allow her to make many decisions, and experience the results (good or bad) and am there to listen to her when she wants to tell someone about the results. I don’t understand why this would stop working later on unless I get into some big fight with her where I take some absolute stand on something that she is dedicated to.
Why not take our kids thoughts and feelings seriously? We may not agree with them, and when we don’t we need to tell them honestly *why* we don’t, but if our only answer to them is “you are wrong to feel that way…” they will soon stop telling us how they feel and what they think, and this will make parenting much harder…. no mater the child’s age.
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John writes “What about a teen who doesn’t want to go to church?”
The largest numbers of leavers from churches are teens. I have a son who is 14 who I do not have this issue with, but one thing I am prepared to do if he no longer wants to go to church is sit down with him and explore reasons and options.
Does he have any friends at church? Does he have any friends that go to another church? Does he have an interest, (instruments, sound recording, sports, that could be fostered through a ministry at church.)
I remember 30 years ago that I didn’t want to go to church on a particular Sunday. They said “OK” and didn’t make a big deal of it. That way, it never became a source of conflict.
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What about a teen (responsible kid, good grades, not rebellious, obedient, no major issues or problems) who doesn’t want to go to church. Would you make them?
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A little background – I went to a fundamentalist church my entire childhood, all the way through high school graduation. I first “felt-up†a girl at a church summer camp (age 13). Other guys were doing the same. The “youth groups†I went to were a place to meet girls. Many of them were sexually active. I first had intercourse when I was 15 with a girl from one of the “youth groups.†I was sexual with several different girls who went to church. I became a father at 17 (the mother didn’t go to church).
The Lord saved me when I was 25. Praise him for His mercy and great grace.
Now I’m 40 and I have seen other “youth groups†as pretty much the same (not all of course) as when I went to them. The Lord has taught me much, and as I reflect back to those times, I can honestly say that I would have benefited greatly from being mentored by other men, not just my own father and “youth pastor.†I honestly believe that there should not be “youth groupsâ€, “ministriesâ€, “campsâ€, “retreatsâ€, and so on. The church should be like a big family rather than subdivided into age groups.
“Teenager†is a relatively new term and age class. It used to be that you were either a child or an adult. We need to start treating children who reach the age of 13 or 14 as adults who have responsibilities, all the while teaching children how to become responsible adults.
Parents: learn to teach your children yourself. Do not rely on anyone else. You don’t know what they are being taught or not taught. Also, learn how to teach your children from Proverbs. Solomon pleads and exhorts to follow the ways of the Lord and doesn’t threaten and demand. Teaching your children is your responsibility.
Honestly and humbly go before the Lord and ask Him to teach you how to rear your children. Be ready to un-learn some bad things and eager to learn some good.
I could go on and on, but this is iMonk’s blog.
Lastly, be gentle, loving, and affectionate with your children, but also set rules and limits. Never punish out of anger, but discipline with love. Always have an explanation based on wisdom for why your children should or shouldn’t do something and never say “because I said so.â€
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imonk,
amen on making the students do research “the old fashioned way” or as I see it, the right way. Just because something is new doesn’t mean that it is effective in getting the job done.
I too am a teacher and have seen computers make taking unhealthy shortcuts too easy. It is too easy to use wikipedia and other sources to do “research”.
The military uses a lot of new technology, but often times it can’t replace the old fashioned practice of putting infantry soldiers on the ground to take out targets.
It is the same in education, just because there is a new technology out there doesn’t mean that it will benefit the students in the long run.
keep up the good work imonk.
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Hi internet monk,
Your entry inspired me to analyze what my parents and those of my Church friends did to have us all (for the most part in the mid 90’s) turn out well.
I grew up in an Eastern European ethnic church and the pastor encouraged/forced all the parents to enroll their kids from a young age in both classical music and sports because, in his words, sports develop physical and social skills and music develops aesthetic appreciation and the brain. So almost all of my generation (25 or so kids) played at least 1 instrument and participated in at least 1 sport. This, along with 3 Church meetings/week (these were Sunday services and afternoon nature hike, Wednesday bible study, and Friday youth meetings) and homework kept us all very busy without much free time to get into trouble.
In addition, music and sports were a huge part of our youth group meetings as well. We would generally have about 30 minute time of singing (not just modern “worship” songs but 4 part choral arrangements that we regularly presented at Sunday services). Then we’d have 45 minute bible study/discussion/prayer time, followed by an hour of soccer, volleyball, or hockey. This created a bond between all of us that remains to this day even though we’ve all scattered around the world.
I don’t think there is a fool-proof formula for raising teenagers but from my observation, I think the music + sports formula in the context of a Christian wordview can help even though it can be expensive and require a lot of family sacrifice.
All the best,
John
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Any advice on how to counsel a family who has just found out their younger late teen daughter has just come out of the closet? — Austin
Don’t know if they’re still around, but 20 years ago there was a group called “Spatula Ministries” that specialized in that sort of counseling. Their name comes from the first step in the counseling: Scrape the Christian parents off the ceiling with a spatula.
Total control is a myth, and a dangerous one. This is the period of growing up and growing away and of separation and starting on the road to becoming an adult. If you insist on keeping them tied to your apron strings and knowing what they’re doing every single minute, and that what they are doing is what you approve of, you are crippling them. — Martha
Then somebody had better un-invent that electronic apron string, the celtel permanently grafted to the ear. I’ve heard horror stories of twentysomethings at job interviews speed-dialing Mommy for advice on what to say in the middle of the interview.
If you want to see the results of Total Control, just look at arrested development poster boy Chris “Eragon” Paolini. And (aging some 30 years, after Mommy & Daddy are no longer around) Michael Jackson.
GKGW is the biggest fraud every foisted on parents via the US Evangelical movement. And we have churches who buy into this program and urge parents to use it. — Ross
GKGW? That sounds harder to pronounce than “GLBT”.
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Re your RSS question, I got full text and the photo in Firefox 3.0 on XP SP3
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iMonk,
Amen to #1. Out of college 5 years ago, my wife and I moved to a nice middle class suburb. We now have a 2 and 3 year old and we are torn because we see the high quality public schools here that we would like our kids to go to, but on the other hand the sense of entitlement we see in the people here for their kids is ridiculous. We’ve already given up on the spiritual development of the suburban churches here and started commuting to an urban Acts29 plant. Thinking about getting out of the burbs completely to avoid the pressure and convenient access to all of its idols in the coming years of child raising.
Anyway-thanks, you’ve given me some good stuff to think about. Can only imagine the impact the next 10 years of technological advances will bring to raising my (then) teens.
Chad
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1. Because we are lazy.
2. It is “or”
3. see above
4. No, because I don’t know what a normal teenager is. I certainly wasn’t one nor one any of the other 10,000.
5. It means what TV meant when I was a kid. It means what radio meant to some extent when my Dad was a kid. It means what nannies have always meant. I can abrogate responsibility for interacting with my child to someone or something else.
6. Nothing. It’s the churches responsibility. I’m doing my part by tithing and participating in small groups and/or I’m watching every move they make to make sure all is hunky dory.
7. Sure, where is the sign up sheet and who do I make the check out to?
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“Ross, have you completed the GKGW curriculum?”
No. We went to the orientation at church years ago and when the video ended with the statement “If you follow this program in a true Christain manner your kids will turn out OK” we kind of did a mental double take. And all the former graduates there to encourage the new folks said the same thing. Follow the programs and your kids will turn out great. We beat feet. And over the years noticed that the folks who attended the program, well their kids were pretty much the same as the ones who’s parents didn’t do the program. Some good, some bad, some seemingly destined for trouble all their lives.
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Ross, have you completed the GKGW curriculum? From the very first, the concept is of “letting go”. The parenting funnel is tight in the very early years and spreads wider and wider as the children age…in other words you let go more and more of the control as they assume responsibility for their own lives.
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What does the research on relocation say?
I’ve thought about relocating, but for the children, not despite them.
Does research show that it is always a negative influence?
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“Christian parenting rhetoric is full of the lie of total control.”
GKGW is the biggest fraud every foisted on parents via the US Evangelical movement. And we have churches who buy into this program and urge parents to use it.
In the end you can’t force kids to do anything. All you can do is steer them. And as you get older the steering must be more and more general. And you MUST MUST MUST allow them to fail at times. If they don’t burn their fingers at times they will very likely burn to death later in life.
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Michael,
Thanks; much appreciated post. (And Happy Father’s Day!) My oldest just turned 13; I already feel like I’m headed in ED’s direction. May God have mercy on us all. Please.
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My wife and i have raised 3 teenagers (2 boys and 1 girl – homeschooled and Christian schooled), have 1 current teenager (boy – homeschooled, Christian schooled and now in public school) and 1 pre-teen (boy – Christian schooled and now homeschooled). We have never experienced a generation gap and have never had any serious behaviour issues with our kids. The oldest 4 have all been involved in short-term missions and the 2 oldest are leading a Bible study for co-workers at their secular workplace (even a muslim attends). I lead a Christian club at the public school where i teach and most of the students who attend are non-Christians and were invited by my teen. My wife and i are very imperfect parents.
Perhaps one thing that has helped is that we didn’t just coach our kids, telling them how to play the game – but we expected them to get on the court and play the game themselves. If kids only get coached in youth group, at church and at home, they will never develop as Christians – they have to get on the court and play the game for themselves. Also, if they only see their parents being coached and never “playing the game” don’t be surprised if they lose interest. Seriously, who would want to be on a basketball team that never played a game, but only sat on the bench and got coached? Unfortunately churches do a lot of coaching, but don’t give too many opportunities for youth (or adults for that matter) to get on the court and actually play the game.
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I have a 2 year old. This scares me.
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Andy:
Can’t say much more. If I take ten kids to the lab to research, I’ll spend all my time keeping 5 of them from doing a variety of other things. The “wired” addiction is universal. We have kids come to campus to interview holding a cell phone in each hand and you almost have to pry them out. Even cameras are a big problem because we get deluged with sex pics.
ms
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Michael,
Thanks for this post – as someone with a teenage son and a daughter who’ll hit those years before very long, I found it strangely encouraging. I say “strangely” because it’s not as if it’s a post full of answers; actually it underlines how extraordinarily difficult the task of getting a family intact through teenage years can be.
I think the tendency is great (at least in me) to blame ourselves and our own shortcomings every time we see our teenagers make mistakes or deliberately rebel. We tend to forget that (a) mistakes are what we all learn through, (b) you can’t plan for a lot of this stuff, and some of it would have happened anyway, however hard we might have tried to control it and legislate for it, and (c) what’s done is done and the only time we can influence is the future.
For me, this was the kicker:
“Do your best, then let God take over. Be a parent, but don’t be a martyr. Your kids won’t be saved by you punishing yourself. Your sins as a parent were placed on Jesus. Don’t be a slacker about it, but take God’s grace and move on.”
That’s it right there. As someone who’s painfully aware of my inadequacies as a father, reading that really lifted my spirit on Father’s Day. And you know what? I’m now looking forward to going out to lunch with my wife, my teenage son and my soon-to-be-teenage daughter!
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Hey iMonk, would you elaborate on the computers comment? I’m really kind of shocked about this because when I was in school computers were a huge success. Admittedly I was no angel, and some of my classmates definitely abused it as well, but I can’t remember it getting so bad that computers were only used for abuse.
Then again I’m probably very biased because I learned my love of programming from a great teacher in my high school and without computers I probably would not be in the career I am today. Still makes me very sad to see that kids don’t want to use them at all for education considering their potential.
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#3
I bought into the lie that kids would be resilient through divorce because that is what I wanted to believe to fulfil my lust.
It isn’t true.
EVREYTHING we do effects our children in some way.
They are paying attention.
They are smart (as I’m sure a teacher of teens knows).
It ain’t all about you pally.
BTW, I am now re-married to my children’s mother.
Not heroic just the way it worked out.
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iMonk,
As a teenager (I’m 17), I fully and whole-heartedly that parents living out what they believe makes the teenager listen to their parents. I’ve noticed that all most teenagers want today is some consistency. With the world moving at high speeds and always changing (especially in social behaviors [due to growing up] and entertainment), the teenager yearns for some consistency, something they can grasp onto. At least, that’s how me and my friends are. By the way, love reading your posts. Always full of truth!
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Mike,
Thanks for the clarification. I have no problem accepting that explanation. Being in a gay relationship is no different/worse than any other sin. My point was that there is a point at which acceptance of the sin becomes condoning the sin, and I was interested to know how far Jjoe was going with his statement. Jesus absolutely would have no problem interacting with, serving and loving the person–he also would have no problem calling a spade a spade.
~Lori Underwood
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Imonk,
Thanks,
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My wife and I fought and fought with my youngest (a boy) throughout his teenage years and no amount of logic, anger, punishment, restriction, you-name-it, made any difference whatsoever.
After countless sleepless nights (curfews were regularly disobeyed) I sat him down when he turned 18 and basically told him: “You are now an adult as far as I’m concerned. You are welcome to live in this house as long as you are a full-time student, but from this day forward, I DO NOT CARE what you do, where you go or how late you stay out. You have shown no concern or respect for your mother and I, and we are through.”
Harsh perhaps, and there have been plenty of times I have looked back over the years and seen where I could have done better and maybe avoided it coming to this.
One good thing though: Once I let go, I started sleeping better immediately.
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Thank you for this. It’s all something I’d like to do, but like dex above, I’m often constrained by circumstances. Our family is so broken, and I am now a single parent, dealing with all the emotional baggage that comes from a family with severe problems. Just getting out of bed sometimes is hard, knowing what’s coming during the day. The ideal of what you wrote about is something I gave up on long ago.
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“Any advice on how to counsel a family who has just found out their younger late teen daughter has just come out of the closet?”
I’m afraid you’re just going to have to live with it. If it’s any comfort, lesbians are more likely than gay men to actually be bi. So who knows, she might surprise you down the road. In the meantime…well, what harm could it honestly do?
If you can bring yourself to welcome her friends and lovers, and listen to them non-judgmentally (i.e. preach only if asked), then this might accomplish a great deal. Read Alison Bechdel’s cartoons (“Dykes to Watch Out For” and “Fun Home”) for a serious, yet readable look at lesbian lifestyles and concerns. (DTWOF is free on the internet.)
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It’s impossible for me to picture Jesus refusing to go on a vacation with a sibling if that sibling had a girlfriend. It is also impossible for me to imagine Jesus saying he would forfeit his personal relationship with a family member over his disapproval of a sexual matter. My reading of the Gospels convinces me that Jesus would not imply approval of sin or sever relatioships over a sin.
Matthew more than likely had a prostitute in the bedroom, and Jesus ate dinner in his home. I am sure there was much worse.
Christians have severed, damaged and forever wounded relationships while telling themselves they were refusing to “approve.” If that is what a person believes God requires of them, then they should do so. But I believe we should treat all persons with the same grace God gives to us every day. God doesn’t approve of much that I do, and I do it all with full knowledge of the cross. Yet he gives me breath, life and love. I prefer to have the opportunity to talk about these things within relationships, not from the wreckage, damage and prideful defenses of broken relationships.
To me, it’s a question of Jesus and Jesus only.
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IMonk,
I missed a few posts, evidently the one that was deleted. And Jjoe’s answer left more to be desired, not because it was so “accepting” but becasue if failed to address two larger issues. And I do think by the way that Jjoe was trying to say that a person can earn acceptance for one thing by good behavior in another area, if not then why bring up the good deeds, it seems typical, “He’s a good ole boy who would give you the shirt off his back” excuse, but I digress.
The two questions I had specificly are these.
1. To what level should parents continue to allow their grown ( or rather legally independant) children to carry own with activities they disagree with in situations they control? For example, and I know it’s trite and simplistic but it get’s the question across. Let’s say the mom and dad typicall go on vacation where they take the grown children and their spouses with them. Should these parents be expected to allow their daughters partner with them. I mean you wouldn’t let anyone carry on in a way you thought harmful in any other way.
2. What responsibilites do these people have in regards to minor impressionable children witnessing this situation? Do we really think that an 8 year old can just tell that Gramps and Granny are being accomodating and polite or are they being accepting? Do we contend that what we as adults might consider polite defference is not interpreted as endorsement or acceptance on our part?
And Jjoe,I do appreciate your reply because it shows just how complex the situation is. I’m not being contentious, but homosexual activity is just that, and act, and action, and people choose actions.
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I counsel parents to approach this reasonably and not by being blackmailed with pressure. Take into account need, expense, abuse and responsibility. The rule can’t be adjusting to what others do, but what is right for your family. Our family, for example, didn’t need to address the car issue at 16. It just wasn’t necessary, and we didn’t.
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as my kids have gotten older i have allowed a lot more freedom. much more than i feel comfortable with, but after my husband, a therapist, committed suicide and my oldest child also attempted it several times i caved to many of my childrens’ desires for cell phones, computer time, etc. i didn’t have the energy to fight anymore and i was always afraid they would become fed up and join their father.
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Russ:
That’s my choice, not a rule.
When I take kids to the Computer lab to do “research,” I have to fight them as they open multiple tabs, use Proxies to get to chat, try to view porn, sports, music videos, write letters, etc.
I decided two years ago that my students would do some of their projects the old school way: in the library and on note cards.
The use of computers in education is pretty much a joke.
I could tell you stories…
ms
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I guess the one that really struck me was the research rules in the library. Not allowing IMs and such would be one thing, but I’m not so sure that requiring the students to adapt their research-collecting to someone else’s norms is justified. (But, no biggie.)
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Your main points are all right on target. The only thing I would add is to keep a sense of humor and be sure you find time to laugh with your teens.
My husband and I have 6 children and we say to each other, how would we ever have known how dumb we are if we hadn’t had children to tell us? There were plenty of Bill Cosby-ish moments trying to keep things in humorous perspective while surviving 2007, the year we had 4 teenagers, yes, all at the same time!
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>…Is it your opinion, then, that being gay is acceptable because they are doing something admirable?
Joe never said either thing nor did he imply either thing. He said that gracious acceptance happens in unlikely places.
Joe did what needs to be done: deconstruct terms like “the gay lifestyle” which do nothing but reduce human beings to sexual behavior. It’s deplorable- absolutely unconscionable- to hear Christians using shorthand that if used about them would make them feel immediately judged by their religious preference.
Until we can stop asking people “if they approve” of same sex behavior when they say gays are good parents, etc, we aren’t going to get close to having a credible discussion with our gay friends and family members.
ms
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I just want to add that I am not “standing on the law and claiming holiness” by any means. I would be the last to point my finger or cast a stone–after all, I live in a very glass house myself. I am just interested in understanding your comment better.
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Jjoe,
I think that the “family” that you described is a wonderful example of God’s ability to use each of us, in spite of our sinful choices. Indeed, in His infinite Grace, He does work through the least of these.
Is it your opinion, then, that being gay is acceptable because they are doing something admirable?
Can we really justify our sinfulness so long as our works are “good”?
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We adopted one of our children when she was just an infant. She’s now 38. It’s been a bumpy ride, but I wouldn’t trade her for anything. I don’t know if I would have had the fortitude to adopt her as a teenager, though.
Thank you for your perspective. I’ll be interested to hear from you again when you’re a grandparent. That’s whole ‘nother life.
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A most interesting and touching meditation, imonk. Nothing is more humbling, or strips away the illusion (and it is an illusion)of control than children generally and teenagers in particular. I sometimes feel sorry for the parents of Stepford Children because it encourages some of them in their illusion that they have somehow mastered life and are in control of things. To mix in another topic you touched upon recently, it seems to me that the illusion that one is in control of events keeps one far from the Kingdom of Heaven. Very dangerous, very prideful.
Happy Father’s Day.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts, iMonk. I’m over a decade away from having teenagers, but I think much of what you say can apply for those of us with younger children, too.
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And…
I saw a baptism last Sunday of two children who are being raised by a gay couple.
The gay couple was white and the kids were black.
And the kids have AIDS and were adopted after no one else wanted them.
Speaking personally, knowing the way I love my daughter, I do not have the strength to raise two children knowing they will die in my arms at some point.
Those parents have volunteered to put themselves through the hell of losing a child in order to give the gift of unconditional love.
Is this a sinful lifestyle? I call it a glimpse into the Kingdom. It seems to me God works through the least of these much more often than He works through those who stand on the law and claim holiness.
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They’d better learn to accept it. Gosh, it’s their daughter.
If their daughter really is gay, and not just working some adolescent rebellion to drive her parents crazy, then she was born gay. That is the elephant in the room.
And I’m not sure what the gay lifestyle is, really. The gay people I know have the same boring, day-to-day, bill-paying suburban lifestyle I do. They just do it with someone of the same sex. If you saw one of them at the grocery store, you’d have no idea. Their children are just as well-adjusted as any other kids.
Many do have issues with their parents and are estranged from them, though. If and when the daughter has children, those will be grandchildren the grandparents won’t be holding. Which is a sad thing.
This is probably not what they would want to hear and it’s certainly not politically correct to a lot of Christians.
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hi imonk,
i appreciate that you took the time to share some of what you have experienced. it is good to get insight from your perspective.
nancy
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thank you for sharing these thoughts on parenting. so much of it applies to those of us with small children, too.
happy father’s day eve.
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Thanks for the Austin warning. I deleted my reply.
Since you bring it up, what’s your disagreement or take?
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Michael, while I don’t agree with everything you wrote, it is an interesting perspective. (This from an ex-associate pastor with two sons in their 20s.)
By the way, I think you misread Austin’s comment. I didn’t get the sense that the daughter coming out of the closet was the one with the grandchildren.
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And I forgot to add, what you say about living your values is so true.
If your kid is in trouble for fighting in school, and you storm in, yelling at the teachers for picking on him and threatening lawsuits and phoning your local TD and who knows what else – where do you think Junior learned the way to deal with problems is bluster and violence?
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Good advice, Michael. I’d just like to put in my tuppence worth on this subject.
I’m typing up a thesis for a neighbour working towards his MEd in Guidance and Counselling. It’s to do with adolescent drop-out from schooling, and while I’m not going to quote any thing directly from it, I would say:
(1) There is a shed-load of research on the topic of adolescence. The bibliography (double-spaced, one side of the paper) runs to 28 pages. If the experts are still puzzling over it, then parents should not expect to be 100% perfect 100% of the time. You can’t know everything and it’s not your fault if you don’t.
(2) To go with the shed-load of research, there are many, many, many approaches to the topic. Everything from the purely biological (it’s all down to hormones) to the psychological to the trendy 70s sociological. There is no one explanation for why one kid goes off the rails and another one in the same circumstances doesn’t.
(3) Some of the tension is down to the physiology of adolescence. They really *do* need to sleep more, they really *do* need to eat more, they are not being lazy or greedy or selfish. They really *do* think it’s the end of the world if Jenny says Mary says Bill told her Johnny likes Ann doesn’t ask them to the dance or if you tell them they can’t go out to Joe’s party this weekend because Joe’s parents are gone. It’s not being over-dramatic; levels of the stress hormone cortisol are elevated in adolescents, so every thing *is* a crisis to them.
(4) Total control is a myth, and a dangerous one. This is the period of growing up and growing away and of separation and starting on the road to becoming an adult. If you insist on keeping them tied to your apron strings and knowing what they’re doing every single minute, and that what they are doing is what you approve of, you are crippling them.
(5) Peers are amazingly important in this time, but so are parents. Be there and be involved. Yes, Johnny or Mary may storm off, slamming the door and sulking, but they need you to be mean and heartless 🙂
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Michael,
Thanks for digging into the history you have with teens and the Father and pulling out a perspective most of us would never develop on our own. Your tough questions are meaningful and thought provoking especially for those of us still parenting a teen.
I will borrow from your perspective and try to improve my own.
Godspeed…
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Sorry Austin. I misread the situation.
Marin’s Book. Love them all. Beyond that I’ll just get in trouble.
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Imonk,
Any advice on how to counsel a family who has just found out their younger late teen daughter has just come out of the closet?
Specificaly, they have other children and more problematic they have very young grandchildren. They do not want to lose contact with the daughter but they don’t want that lifestyle presented to their grandchildren as something that is acceptable.
Thanks,
This is the first time I’ve had this situation.
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