Your Christian friend has been staying up late on the internet, listening to Christian short wave and now comes up with a collection of completely bizarre, totally mythological pieces of anti-factual, conspiratorial nonsense—“They drilled a hole to hell,”….”Obama is a Muslim”…..”NASA has proven the sun stands still”….”9-11 was prophesied in Ezekiel”….”Christianity is going to be illegal by the next election.”
What do you do?
Do you correct them?
Do you leave it alone?
Do you write down Snopes.com on a card and give it to them?
Do you laugh? Weep?
Do you top it with a stranger story?
What is the right response to ignorance, factual error and sweeping untruths?
The Internet Monk Archives 
I think conspiracy theories are a throw-back to gnosticism; it’s all about having a secret knowledge above and apart from anyone else. It makes one special, elevated above the ignorant, unwashed masses. — Dumb Ox
As in “The Conspiracy Has Won, We’re All Gonna Die, It’s All Over But The Screaming, BUT I *KNOW* WHAT’S *REALLY* GOING ON (smug smug smug)”?
Years ago, there was this underground-comic version of “The Three Little Pigs” by underground cartoonist Roberta Gregory. In it, the Third Little Pig is a Conspiracy Theorist, telling the two others about The Slaughterhouse We’re All Going To and what will be done with them there in lip-smacking detail. He tells them this as they arrive at the meat-packing plant, go up the chutes, and under the slaughter knives. At no time does he suggest escape or evasion. At no time does he use this knowledge for anything. At the end, he’s the last to go under the slaughter knives; his last words (to his dead companions) are “SEE? SEE? I WAS RIGHT!!!! SEE? SEE? SEE?”
Ever since then, I have referred to this kind of Gnostic Conspiracy Theorist as “Roberta Gregory’s Third Little Pig.”
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I think conspiracy theories are a throw-back to gnosticism; it’s all about having a secret knowledge above and apart from anyone else. It makes one special, elevated above the ignorant, unwashed masses. — Dumb Ox
As in “The Conspiracy Has Won, We’re All Gonna Die, It’s All Over But The Screaming
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I can’t think of better responses, especially when the error in question is Chuck Missler claiming that Mars passed so close to the Earth in OT times it showed up huge in the sky, many times bigger than the moon, and scared everybody to death. — BrianD
WTF?
This sounds like Velikovsky, except using Mars instead of Venus.
Did somebody mistake Wylie’s novel When Worlds Collide for fact?
Or is this “Just like Velikovsky, except CHRISTIAN (TM)!”?
(I leave alone the fact that if something like that ever happened, Mars’s gravity would cause such disruption that at the very least Earth would lose its moon; at most, Earth would tidal-stress enough to cause another Deccan Traps-size eruption and accompanying mass extinction event. The only way to avoid this would be to block Earth from all the gravitational effects — the “And Then A Miracle Happened” crowd can ring in with the proof texts now…)
But of course these people are the least likely to agree they have a problem. And suggesting in any way shape or form there might be an issue to be worked out, much less an illness tends to have very bad results. Been there. Done that. Have the shirt, hat, bag, and receipts. — Ky boy but now now
And your Membership Card in the Vast Fill-in-the-Blank Conspiracy.
“WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN! THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS!”
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Assuming that this person is not an escapee from a mental hospital, and is actually a somewhat rational person, I’d start with the very basic question concerning their acceptance of the bible as the inspired word of God. From there I would point out that there are many aspects of the world we live in that seek to get us off track and take our focus off of the work before us as servant leaders. Finally, I’d remind my friend what the bible says the earth will be like in the last days, full of confusion and chaos, and acknowledge my own belief that we have arrived at that point in history. I’d also remind my friend that God remains on the thrown and to “keep the faith” knowing we are to occupy until Christ returns – and that worrying about such things as prompted by all of these rumors does not serve the body of Christ.
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People are welcome to have nutty beliefs, but what’s the proper Christian response when they take actions that affect others?
Case in point: The persistent myth (nee cult) that believes vaccines cause autism. No matter that there’s no credible scientific evidence for it, and plenty that debunks the idea.
So now we have a breakdown in herd immunity that is resulting in outbreaks of preventable diseases and death in people who are too young, have compromised immune systems, aren’t vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine wasn’t effective. Google “Jenny McCarthy Body Count” for details.
What do you do when you love these people dearly as members of Christ’s body, but do things that could result in serious harm to their children and the surrounding community?
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Going back to the questions iMonk raised in the lead article of this thread:
When a brother or sister starts talking about something totally off the wall, I:
1. may speak up and correct them with the truth
2. but will usually smile and say nothing
I can’t think of better responses, especially when the error in question is Chuck Missler claiming that Mars passed so close to the Earth in OT times it showed up huge in the sky, many times bigger than the moon, and scared everybody to death. Or for the typical WorldNet Daily article about Obama or the economy 😉
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“To the one who posted about their friend having him/her meet them in the library and ended up asking “Do you think this place is bugged?†It is highly likely your friend is suffering from schizophrenia, paranoid type. It is not just highly likely, but rather 100% reality, that your friend needs to be properly evaluated by a psychiatrist.”
But of course these people are the least likely to agree they have a problem. And suggesting in any way shape or form there might be an issue to be worked out, much less an illness tends to have very bad results. Been there. Done that. Have the shirt, hat, bag, and receipts.
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Clarification– the above comment did not address the large group of “group thinkers” that are not mentally ill, but simply go along with whatever their pastor or parents or christian brothers and sisters say. This is especially harmful in small town, lesser educated areas. Many times, small-town church group think can create “extra-biblical principles and/or facts” and call them “biblical principle and or fact” with little or no resistance. I do believe that the poor and less educated parts of the world have a step up, not a handicap, compared to the “enlightened” world in many areas, but accepting the the realities of modern behavioral neuroscience/psychiatry (when science actually is correct, because science is highly fluid/debated/not always correct)is not one of small-town or developing world Christianity’s fortes. They trump us bigtime in areas like “faith like a child,” “keeping it simple,” “life not being choked out by worry,” etc. But the rejection of proven science and the prosperity gospel are two great examples of where developed-world christianity does have a mandate to educate the less-educated members of our Brotherhood/Sisterhood, that just cause it walk/talks/acts like a duck (a demon-possessed person), doesn’t mean it’s a duck. The “demon-possessed person” may simply need a pill or two.
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I don’t really know how many of our Christian brothers and sisters realize the facts of mental illness. Does anyone besides me think that most Christians would be shocked at the fact that 1% of human beings develop schizophrenia over their lifetime? 1 out of every 100. Experimental evidence has also shown that no religious group, agnostic group, atheistic group has more of a susceptibility to this disease. I was shocked by this as a second year medical student after growing up with an evangelical background. Yes, there are people who fall under criteria for “paranoid personality disorders” but never develop schizophrenia, but one in 100 people in any population do develop schizophrenia. Tomorrow I take my test for psychiatry– which means I just finished a six week rotation in psychiatry. Let me tell you, I have found this difficult to deal with– difficult to conceptualize. In the end I learned how to say, “I don’t understand the spiritual interworkings of all this” a whole lot in medical school. I will say that I do believe in demon-possession, but I also believe that many schizophrenics are not demon-possessed. Many times it IS a biological illness. Anybody who refutes that would have to call me crazy, because I’ve seen so many people in the last six weeks go from floridly psychotic to very much normal without psychosis just by taking a few pills. I think this challenges us as believers to say “I don’t know what demon-possession was/is” all the time. I went on a mission trip for six months to West Africa a few years back where surgeries were being performed on people who were already declared “demon-possessed” by those in their neighborhood. They came to a ship and received a simple surgery, went back to their communities and were “miraculously” healed according to all in their hood. Ridiculous. Charismatic Christianity, with all its merits, must be careful not to declare biological illness as spiritual illness, just as science should be careful not to declare all illness biological and unrelated to the spiritual.
To the one who posted about their friend having him/her meet them in the library and ended up asking “Do you think this place is bugged?” It is highly likely your friend is suffering from schizophrenia, paranoid type. It is not just highly likely, but rather 100% reality, that your friend needs to be properly evaluated by a psychiatrist. Once again, more of these “certainties” that we hear about from our Christian brothers and sisters are the result of mental illness than meets the eye. Not saying its a result of christianity– don’t believe that– but this type of illness cuts across faith lines, that’s all I’m sayin. Any thoughts, please respond.
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If I hear something obviously false from someone who is usually reasonable, I let them know what I think. If I hear something obviously false from someone who has never met a conspiracy theory he/she hasn’t liked, I bite my tongue. After all, honoring my father and mother is supposed to give me a long life in the land the Lord, my God, will give me. 🙂
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It seems in this information age, we can all pick our ‘prophets’. They interpret the news for us… Now we can hear what our itching ears want to hear.
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It’s all true.
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On the subject of Obama, it seems rather obvious to me that he picked his church (if not his religion) on the basis of potential political utility to himself.
Typical behavior for politicians, of course. For the sake of comparison, Bush Jr. became a born-again Baptist at a rather convenient time for him (before that he had been a lapsed Episcopalian), while his co-religionist Bill Clinton got great mileage out of speaking at churches…especially during a certain difficult time when he, you know, needed to bare his soul.
But Reagan (allegedly Episcopalian) avoided going to church, on the grounds that he didn’t want to inconvenience anybody with all the security details. He was the true saint!
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J, okay, yes, I did start it by mentioning Professor Myers as an example of what I feel to be the more harmful disseminator of opinions than the conspiracy peddlers. Most people will roll their eyes and automatically tune out the “Here’s proof that the mind-control chips are being implanted in your fillings!” stuff, but people will give more credence to someone with a title, in a position of responsibility, maintaining with authority a mistaken version of “Everyone knows that – ” which ten minutes with Google and a history book would show to be untrue. You know, the way that everyone knows that Scholastic theologians debated how many angels could fit on the head of a pin (except they didn’t), everyone knows the truth about the Galileo affair (except it was a bit more complicated than Science versus Fanaticism), everyone knows Columbus was trying to prove the earth was round (except he wasn’t), everyone knows about the bad, bad Christians on the Crusades invading the lands of the peaceful Muslim folk (except that history is more tangled than that).
There are enough real faults staining the Church without falsehoods or errors being piled on top. I didn’t want to derail the thread or start a dogfight on Michael’s blog, which is why I didn’t start a discussion with you.
If you want to take this up, I’ll give you an email address and you can berate me as an ignorant churl who only wants to force scientists to worship idols they don’t believe in under pain of death. We can yell and pull one another’s hair to our heart’s content then without getting in Michael’s hair, okay? Or you can tell me to “Clear off” and you have better things to do than try to enlighten my ignorance, since I obviously have a vendetta against atheism and atheists. I really don’t mind either way.
For the rest of you, consider this: why no Cisterican conspiracy novels? What are they keeping quiet about?
http://holywhapping.blogspot.com/
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The people who read and circulate this nonsense often have too much time on their hands. What better than to recommend that they divert their empty hours to iMonk instead! With all the crap on the Internet, I keep coming back to this wonderful blog for a dose of sanity. Michael, you are a blessing to the multitudes!
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Also, in every lie there is an element of truth. Opposing the lie is twisted into an assault on the grain of truth.
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I think conspiracy theories are a throw-back to gnosticism; it’s all about having a secret knowledge above and apart from anyone else. It makes one special, elevated above the ignorant, unwashed masses. Conspiracy theorists are their own secret societies, which is amusing, considering most conspiracies typically target some secret, hidden group. There is the element of cultish behavior in conspiracy followers; membership based on fear and coercion; escaping is very difficult.
Plato-ism raises its ugly head again: you can’t trust what you see, hear, are told, or what you can reason; the truth is somehow obfuscated and is only revealed to the truly enlightened.
I don’t think it can be combated. Opposing a conspiracy makes one part of the cover-up, part of the problem.
Sympathy is key.
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*J, I don’t want to get into that dogfight on Michael’s site again. It’s been thrashed out to death on various places, and it’s not made a screed of difference to opinion on either side…*
Churlishness be damned: You started it.
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*A lot of good suggestions so far. Specifically, the ‘Obama is a Muslim’ untruth…*
That one’s easy to deal with: Just email them this picture.
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“I agree with those who have mentioned that Christians, especially evangelical/born-again seem to be especially prone to this sort of thing.”
Oh no… There are tons of non-Christians who ate up Zeitgeist the movie — including an atheist friend of mine.
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“I’m with Ed though. My poor wife ends up having to hear what I really think later.”
Oh no.. my wife will have to join the poor wife’s club, because even though I do speak up, it’s amazing how much I actually bite my tongue.
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I have a nasty habit of not being able to keep my mouth shut. I try. I can’t. Even when it’s not a whopper, I’m quick to let someone know that I think they’re wrong. Or in some cases that I know they’re wrong.
Some recent ones from friends:
Prayer is illegal in schools
The ACLU never defends Christians
The SD Bible Study shows that ‘they’ don’t want us to worship [never found out who ‘they’ were]
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A lot of good suggestions so far. Specifically, the ‘Obama is a Muslim’ untruth (and in my case, always coming from a Christian) and how to deal with it. I’ve tried different things but usually haven’t pushed back hard, mostly held my tongue and held in the deep sadness that wells up…but next time I hear this, I can I’m going to ask these questions…until I get an honest answer.
1. Does Obama and his family regularly attend a mosque?
2. Does Obama’s wife wear a burkha, a veil, etc?
3. Do Obama’s children attend an Islamic school?
4. Does a person’s middle or last name identify their religion/faith?
If they answer in the affirmative, I’ll concede their point.
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Ps. On (b) I mean “Nazirite.”
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Katie:
“What does one do when one’s seminary professor just announced that Jesus was born in Nazareth?”
(a) Quiz him on whether Nazareth even existed during the first century.
(b) Bring up the “Nazareth / Nazarene” translation issue. (Maybe he was not “Jesus of Nazareth” but “Jesus the Nazarene.”)
(c) Mention that there was another “Bethlehem” located in Galilee.
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I think miraculous claims overseas can be grouped together with the Obama is a muslim kind of stuff. I’m talking about how normal, non-conspiracy Christians believe that God is miraculously healing people in places like Africa and Asia (but, conveniently, never here in America). I used to believe such claims but I don’t any more since these claims always happen on the other side of the world where you can’t even verify it.
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I was in a college class with a very conservative teacher who was trying to demonstrate how the world is falling apart and our society is becoming so secular that Christians are downright persecuted (oh, okay, I’ll just say it: I was at Focus on the Family Institute) — in order to demonstrate the point, he read the Onion article on Harry Potter out loud. I was so embarrassed for him, I couldn’t sit still. I don’t know if it was very respectful or professional, but I waved my arm, and finally stood up while he read. I interrupted and said, “I’m sorry, that’s from the Onion, and it’s a spoof newspaper. None of what you’re reading is true.” It was embarrassing, but I felt like it would be more embarrassing to let him finish reading the article to everyone and use it to make his ill-founded point. He was an intelligent, educated man I think. I felt like I had to do him this favor. …He received it very graciously and apologized and moved on. I don’t know if I would do the same thing now that I’m older (but I sure wouldn’t be at Focus on the Family Institute again, so oh well).
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My favourites, though, are the apparitions of Our Lady in waterstains and cheese sandwiches. — Martha
Out here in SoCal, we call those “Mary-in-a-Tortilla”; Mary Obesssion IS the quintesinally Catholic way to flake out.
One entrepreneur actually marketed some sort of stencill you insert into your toaster with the bread; it toasts a picture of St Mary on the bread. Try THAT on these miracle wannabes…
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Most of the time I gently correct them. I did this during the presidential campaign even as I was going to hold my nose and vote for McCain. There were enough legitimate reasons to vote against Obama without participating in outright falsehood.
Every now and then I’ll just let it go if it’s not the time or place to get into a big discussion. And I’m fond of hitting “reply all” and sending them to Snopes.
The thing I have to resist is not adding the snark I’d like to when this stuff keeps getting circulated. That’s especially key when you’re dealing with in-laws. 🙂
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Ahem. In the interests of accuracy:
” homeopathic medicine. It doesn’t have to prove anything as some major supporters in Congress have gotten it written into the laws related to the FDA that they can’t regulate it.*
There are certain laws , but the FDA is understaffed and doesn’t enforce as much as it could. Interesting conundrum for the anti-government sort of conspiracy theorist; do we side with restricting-my-freedom-of-choice government regulators or greedy manufacturers? Which one is the all-wise “common man”?
I personally think many folk home remedies are soothing and mostly harmless, that many natural products have interesting potential, and that treating garlic as a drug would be a little rough on Italian chefs.
However,my consiracy-theory relative will take any supplement recommended on the radio, and the line “the medical establishment is against us because if you took our pill you would be healthy and they would stop making money” is pretty common. A lot of advertising that counts on the FCC not watching closely.
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It’s not only in the religious area, where there are conspiracy theories.
Last night, I bit my tongue over comments about drug companies keeping cancer cures in their vaults. It wasn’t worth the effort to explain the complicatedness of cancer/FDA approval/ and even the cost of research and development.
Overall, I just tend to keep quiet. Not worth the cost in relationships.
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The irony of us (the ‘dying-God’ set) feeling any way about other people’s unbelievable beliefs is kind of irritating to me – I think the solution is really simple and has nothing to do with debating shut-ins on their pet theories.
Cranks are often lonely, suspicious people. This most of us have observed; Christian cranks are all the more tragic because the things they should believe in and thirst for (the holiness of community, cheerful submission, wisdom) have sort of died in them. Cranks usually lack the hope for the future or trust in the holiness of the Kingdom of the present that a life by grace nurtures in us, and they often have trouble looking at people rightly without relapsing to their suspicious categories. It’s not just a bad mental habit thats slowly transformed them, but a bad spiritual one.
My suggestion: instead of trying to counter the cranks among us with reality, try and reintroduce them to humanity. It’s a patient labor, helping somebody to develop the social skills that allow them to put down their weaponized ideas and defense mechanisms, but with love I think fresh community and good times can heal almost anything.
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What does one do when one’s seminary professor just announced that Jesus was born in Nazareth? Presented without further comment. As in, “Translate this, house of bread, Bethlehem, as in, the town where Jesus was, well, not born. We know where Jesus was born. It wasn’t Bethlehem. It was Nazareth. Jesus was born in Nazareth. Ok, next word. How would you pronounce this one?”
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morgan – oh, yes. The Third Secret of Fatima was always good for scaring the daylights out of people with intimations about terrible persecutions and what-not; the Catholic version of the Tribulation 🙂
Then the spoilsport Vatican revealed it, and it wasn’t at all what everyone was expecting, so now we have the hard-core conspiracy theorists claiming that this was *not* the REAL Third Secret, and that the prophecy is too terrible to be revealed just yet.
When asked why the Vatican would put out a false secret, be prepared to stand well back for the rant to follow (everything from false Popes to Satan has taken over!!!! to Communist infiltration to Lord alone knows what).
My favourites, though, are the apparitions of Our Lady in waterstains and cheese sandwiches 😉
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ATChaffee:
“. . .there was an Uncanny X-Men comic series where the mutant-hating Church of Humanity had a plan to fake the Rapture by inserting deadly disintegrator nanotechnology into communion wafers throughout the world as part of a plot to get a blue furry teleporter elected Pope. . .and, um, I am not sure where the plot was supposed to go after that, but it was foiled.”
Imagine…Nightcrawler with the power of infallibility as well as teleportation.
My friend swears by a film called “What the (bleep) do we know?” which is apparently big in Australia. For example, we know that the growth of crystals is influenced by the thoughts of people around them, which is suggestive of mind over matter… I looked it up on Wikipedia, which led me to criticisms of the theory.
Did you ever wonder how Snopes would handle religious claims?
Claim: Jesus of Nazareth, a first-century Palestinian religious figure, was born to a virgin mother.
Status: False.
History: While “virgin births” are common in world mythology, this particular flourish seems to have resulted from a Hebrew-to-Greek translation error…
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J, I don’t want to get into that dogfight on Michael’s site again. It’s been thrashed out to death on various places, and it’s not made a screed of difference to opinion on either side.
But I still maintain that the crazy conspiracy people do less real harm than those who, under the mantle of being realists, of being intelligent grown-up folk who don’t need those old fairy tales, of being the arbiters of the kind of society we should be constructing and if only this simple advice was followed we’d all be living amongst rainbows and unicorns, cherish their ignorance and disseminate untruths.
Am I asking Professor Myers to become a Catholic? To bow before the Eucharist? To stop agitating for atheism on his own site? No. I’m just asking him not to spit in my face, then tell me I’mm being oversensitive if I ask for common courtesy.
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“If it’s a ‘Christian’ story, i.e. designed to make God look good, I usually ask them “why, if God is so awesome, do they need fake/exaggerated stories to big him up?†The God I see in Jesus doesn’t need to be lied about, he is pretty amazing when you just look at the plain truth!”
Great comment, Nick (especially for a Brit!) 🙂
Actually, it’s not just the loonies. I too often hear testimonial anecdotes that exaggerate or in some way “hype” God’s power or goodness from friends and celebs alike. Seems to be a staple of Christian television.
Instead, why not share about the sufferings and unresolved problems we experience? Let others see faith “during the process” instead of only in the slo-mo highlights reel.
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Jaz,
How can an obvious nutcase like this be repected and popular? That is the part I do not get.
The popular and respected are the ones most in need of correction b/c the sheep will follow the shepard.
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buy them a copy of Umberto Eco’s “Foucault’s Pendulum” amazing what a fourteenth-century grocery list can do! 🙂
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What do you do when a popular and respected preacher also makes batty and nonsensical claims. Check out what David Wilkerson wrote on his website in March:
“I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to send out an urgent message to all on our mailing list, and to friends and to bishops we have met all over the world.
AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE — EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US.
For ten years I have been warning about a thousand fires coming to New York City. It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. Major cities all across America will experience riots and blazing fires — such as we saw in Watts, Los Angeles, years ago.
There will be riots and fires in cities worldwide. There will be looting — including Times Square, New York City. What we are experiencing now is not a recession, not even a depression. wrath.” http://www.worldchallenge.org/coverletter/an_urgent_message
I almost wish so many Christians like him where right and not down right demented. That way it wouldn’t be so embarrasing.
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Last night at my daughter’s baseball game. (yes baseball) the family in front of me had a couple of friends with them. I swear one of these guys was Cliff Clavin’s clone. Non stop nonsense with a glimmer of truth at the core. I had to bite my tongue several times be never corrected him. This family home schools and is very religious based on the hats and shirts they wear to every game. I hope they had the intelligence to ignore this fool and were just being polite.
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I usually do not get emails with the urban legends anymore. I always reply with a Snopes URL. I think that really cuts down on the volume of glurge in the inbox. Lately I have decided that when I do get them I ‘Reply All’. Might as well shame the sender and hopely spark some critical thinking skills to the chain.
In person it is a bit more tricky. I think laughter is good medicine, so often I just snicker and play it off as though they are joking. If they take offense, then we can debate it. Many times though they look sheepish and seem to realize how crazy they sound and quickly change the subject.
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I had someone come to my place of employment wanting sources to back up her thesis that the Baptist Church was the original church started at Pentecost. I tried very hard not to be a smart-mouthed jerk, but I also wasn’t sure exactly how to help. I finally suggested that she avoid unbiased sources and seek out books written by people who already agreed with her point of view. Yeah, that was a cop-out, but she seemed okay with my response. Sigh…
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J
“*Oh, yeah, the world center of homeopathic belief is that very rational secular center of the universe France.*
No it’s not.”
More than one homeopathic fan seems to think it is.
http://www.boiron.com/en/htm/01_homeo_aujourdhui/realite_eco_homeo.htm
“France, with over 300 billion euros, is the largest homeopathy market in the world, followed by Germany (200 billion euros). 40% of the French have already been treated with homeopathy*, and 74% of the patients stated that they are “inclined to follow a homeopathic treatment if prescribed by their doctorâ€.”
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The Snopes approach worked pretty well for me with the co-workers who passed along a lot of urban legends — at least to the extent that after I’d responded with a Snopes link a few times, they took me off their CC: list for such messages.
On the whole, I think the underlying theme often *is* psychological here — there are people who find it easy to get excited about conspiracy theories and the subject of the excitement can be almost anything, whether religious, political, scientific, medical or whatever. And there’s a phenomenon called “crank magnetism” where people who latch onto views like this in one area are prone to believing the same sorts of things in other areas as well.
Interesting — and, I thought, rather compassionate — article on the whole phenomenon here:
http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2009/06/the_psychology_of_crankery.php
The Denialism blog has some collections of past posts in its title bar that are also pretty helpful (if less charitable).
I find myself often struggling with the opposite sort of issue: I have to be careful how much conspiracy-theory debunking and ridicule I read, because scorn can be as addictive as the crankery it mocks.
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*Yeah. Just take the issue of homeopathic medicine. It doesn’t have to prove anything as some major supporters in Congress have gotten it written into the laws related to the FDA that they can’t regulate it.*
Number one supporter of exempting things from FDA review: Orrin Hatch. Seriously. Utah is ground zero for any number of ridiculous companies selling ridiculous “medicines” made from nothing in particular. It’s a good way to make money when your state has A.) crap instead of education, B.) no water or soil worthy of the name for agriculture, C.) back country clans of polygamists with many underage wives and bigger appetites than regular welfare can provide for. Packaging “vitamins” for sale online is the perfect way to put your fillies and their spawn to work without attracting the attention that might be garnered by face-to-face commerce.
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*Oh, yeah, the world center of homeopathic belief is that very rational secular center of the universe France.*
No it’s not.
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*Christians are not really “up against†pure skeptics, we are opposed often times by people, who just like us, take certain fundamental things on faith. The only difference is that they are hesitant to acknowledge those things that they put their faith in, and we openly declare that we trust in, believe in God.*
Sure. Fine. Whatever you want to tell yourself to make yourself feel good.
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As a Brit my experience is usually to say; “Soooo your American then?” Nah just kidding, although you guys do have a fair few crazies or is it just easier for them to get on TV?!
Anyway on a serious note, if they’ve sent me an e-mail I’ll reply with a comment along the lines of; “Please check your sources. If you don’t you are simply subscribing to the media model of mass hysteria based on no/minimal evidence” They usually come back shamefaced at that because the very thing they are complaining about is hype based media!
If it’s a ‘Christian’ story, i.e. designed to make God look good, I usually ask them “why, if God is so awesome, do they need fake/exaggerated stories to big him up?” The God I see in Jesus doesn’t need to be lied about, he is pretty amazing when you just look at the plain truth!
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“Satanic Death Cookies”. . .there was an Uncanny X-Men comic series where the mutant-hating Church of Humanity had a plan to fake the Rapture by inserting deadly disintegrator nanotechnology into communion wafers throughout the world as part of a plot to get a blue furry teleporter elected Pope. . .and, um, I am not sure where the plot was supposed to go after that, but it was foiled.
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“There is no such thing as a “Pure skepticâ€, because that position is untenable and impossible to live out consistantly.”
Yeah. Just take the issue of homeopathic medicine. It doesn’t have to prove anything as some major supporters in Congress have gotten it written into the laws related to the FDA that they can’t regulate it. (I’m over simplifying here but that’s the basic idea.) So do these “medicines” work? I don’t believe it for a minute. But many do. And without any proof being needed to match the claims made who can argue the point. James Randi has made a career out of debunking them but his semi-circus act doesn’t come across as science to many. And with no one funding research these things will live on for a long time.
Oh, yeah, the world center of homeopathic belief is that very rational secular center of the universe France.
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Ron P
There is no such thing as a “Pure skeptic”, because that position is untenable and impossible to live out consistantly. Christians are not really “up against” pure skeptics, we are opposed often times by people, who just like us, take certain fundamental things on faith. The only difference is that they are hesitant to acknowledge those things that they put their faith in, and we openly declare that we trust in, believe in God.
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I’ve not been very successful at correcting these kinds of errors. If somebody else has, good for them.
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I used to send Snopes links, along with gentle reminders that we need to be sure we aren’t engaging in slander, and that it’s our responsibility as Christians to be sure we are speaking truth … but sometime during the last presidential election, I was informed by a relative who tends toward these sorts of e-mails that Snopes itself was a liberal conspiracy. His e-mails, at least, are now ignored.
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“And it can be very frustrating for relationships when relatives fall into the 2nd category. Over the years the possible civil topics of conversation can dwindle down to the time of day, is it raining, and maybe what’s the weather report for tomorrow.”
It’s more than frustrating; it’s downright painful when that relative is your dad, whom you work with, who not only believes every conspiracy theory that comes down the pike, but also believes that white people are the “real” lost tribes of Israel, and the only people going to heaven. 😦 I am so thankful, IM, that you posted this blog, because it makes me feel less alone to know that there are others who are dealing with this. I truly wish that there was a support group for Family Members of Racist Paranoid Conspiracy Followers, because it is really difficult to deal with in a Christ-like manner (or any manner, really) without losing your mind or severing the relationship completely.
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there not all true?
And I am not getting $150m for helping that nice Christian man from Nigeria?
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Depends on how well I know the person and what level of trust exists in that relationship. If I don’t really know them and they don’t know me, there’s little reason for them to believe me, so I usually don’t say much at all.
If I know them and there is some level of trust, I’ll say or e-mail some variation of “fear not” or “worry not” (which is scriptural, BTW), as well as the Snopes link if at all possible.
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Debunking sterotypes.
My Mother has been on this road for years. She has never had internet, nor short wave radio. Just a line of mail order books going back to one titled:
The Coming Ice Age, circa 1976(?). She also has some magazine(s) that fan the flames.
She is educated. She loves the Lord. She is not fundamentalist nor evangelical, nor argumentative. Just naive and often isolated – even when raising the family she was somewhat isolated. She always kept water and supplies on hand just in case …
She’s now deep in the land of
The Secrets of Fatima.
I think she has some unresolved anger and emotional issues and this is an outlet.
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My usual answer is the conspiracy is so big it seems normal because everyone is in on it. — MikeS
Ever wondered if THAT’s the reason Conspiracy types are so bitter? They’re the Only One in the Entire World who ISN’T Part Of The Vast Conspiracy…
Also tried the “stranger story†approach, bringing up the lizard shapeshifters. I was told that is a silly government-originated story designed to discredit conspiracy theorists and therefore it proves the reality of the New World Order. — AT Chaffee
“THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”
If they’re still too stupid to get it, they’ll probably end up doing something that qualifies them for a posthumous Darwin award, so…whatever…nature has a way of weeding out the ridiculously moronic among us. — L
Just add alcohol. Darwin awards usually involve alcohol.
We don’t get the more Christian-y versions of this kind of stupidity and ignorance in my neck of the woods, but we do have more than our fair share of 9-11 “Truthers†and all I can say is that sometimes it’s okay to haul off and punch someone’s teeth through the back of their heads. Sorry, but it’s true. There are some things you should NEVER tolerate, and that would be one of them. — L
As Penn & Teller advised in their BS episode about 9/11 Conspiracy TRUTHers:
“We’re showing you this book (a 9/11 TRUTH!er Bible) so you’ll recognize it. If you meet anyone carrying this book, PUSH THEM DOWN THE NEAREST FLIGHT OF STAIRS!”
Another fear that this kind of talk brings up in me is that Christians might just be capable of making Hal Lindsey’s nightmares come true by taking their eschatology into politics. It seems like some policies (especially in regards to Israel and the Arab world) that evangelicals support could best be described as “pro-armageddon.†I wonder if it ever occurs to Hagee and his camp that there could be a huge war (even in Megeddo) and that it wouldn’t necessarily put the return of Christ any closer. — Linus
I call this attitude “Christians For Nuclear War”; it was endemic during the Age of Hal Lindsay.
And there’s an Islamic version, too: The Twelfth Imam Cult of Persian Shia. That’s the reason the Ayatollahs of Iran are hell-bent on getting nukes — so they can fulfill THEIR End Time Prophecies.
…as proof that he wasn’t scared of the zombie Catholic hordes adn their bread-god (and justified it because ‘Catholics killed Jews back in the Middle Ages’) — Martha
“Zombie Catholic Hordes and their Bread God…” Good line, gotta remember it as another zombie in the horde. But then us Romish Papists have to stick together to deliver the world to Satan through our Satanic Death Cookies!
IA! IA! NIMROD!
IA! IA! SEMIRAMIS!
IA! IA! TAMMUZ!
CTHULHU NA-FTHAGN!
I think all those conspiracy theories are put out there on purpose by the government just to confuse us and keep our eyes off the Real Conspiracy Amongst Us…fluoride in our drinking water! — stephen
Thus causing the “Destruction of Our Precious Bodily Fluids” — Dr Strangelove
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I have someone in my life who spends most of her time listening to talk shows and reading about conspiracy…Oh, and living in abject terror of the future. I’ve been listening to her predictions for 30 years, none of which have happened yet. When I nicely try to point out the error of whatever the issue is, either she glazes over and changes the subject or argues with me. Either way, she chooses not to listen to reason. I tell myself that I will stop trying, but the next time she tells me that Obama is going to draft me into the military and send me away from my 4 small children, I’m sure I will say something…again…and it will fall on deaf ears…again.
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*My question is why? I suspect it has something to do with the overall tone of Christian radio/TV that evangelicals listen to… kind of a gateway drug that primes them for the “hard stuff.â€
But I really don’t know. Thoughts?*
I have a thought. But do I really need to detail it for you to know what it is?
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*…and I’m really hoping it was only allegedly, consecrated Host as proof that he wasn’t scared of the zombie Catholic hordes adn their bread-god (and justified it because ‘Catholics killed Jews back in the Middle Ages’)*
Actually, Myers justified it on the basis that he doesn’t believe it. And I’m hugely inclined to agree with him: Why should he or I bow and scrape before a cracker *qua* cracker?
And Myers has made a point of saying he *doesn’t* go out of his way to stomp on creationism or Christian belief or Muslim belief or anything else. He records his own responses to the confrontations he sometimes has with creationsists in his biology classes as UM-Morris and he generally comes across as cautious and firm but gentle.
He has said he’s aware of the power a teacher or professor wields over his students (not to mention over their grades) and, wanting to differentiate himself from the religious-minded who have abused such authority before, he does his best to avoid doing so himself. He generally saves his vitriol for his blog where, I think, it has a place.
So no: I for one don’t think Myers/Pharygula is more of a danger to world peace than LaHaye, Jenkins, Scofield, etc.
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“I pesonally like the Snopes.com option.”
I see people who repeat some of these whoppers falling into 2 categories. The first are the people who are rational but don’t stop to think about something that fits their view of how things are and thus sounds true. For them snopes.com works. And civil discussions can come out of it.
The other group is those who are true believers. For them snopes.com is just a part of the conspiracy.
And it can be very frustrating for relationships when relatives fall into the 2nd category. Over the years the possible civil topics of conversation can dwindle down to the time of day, is it raining, and maybe what’s the weather report for tomorrow.
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I pesonally like the Snopes.com option. I have forwarded a link to the site several times in response to some of the nonsense e-mail forwards I have received. The “Chrisitan” e-mail forwards are a personal pet peeve of mine. I can’t ever recall getting one that was 100% true. This is terrible for our witness. No wonder the world thinks we are a bunch of hypocritical weirdos.
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I agree with those who have mentioned that Christians, especially evangelical/born-again folks, seem to be especially prone to this sort of thing.
I didn’t see it much when I served in a mainline church, but hoo-boy I get a dose of it nearly every week in my current evangelical non-denom church.
My question is why? I suspect it has something to do with the overall tone of Christian radio/TV that evangelicals listen to… kind of a gateway drug that primes them for the “hard stuff.”
But I really don’t know. Thoughts?
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Everyone wants to be thought of as smart. People get into these weird stories because they think it makes them look smart, like they’ve grasped some hidden truth. It also makes them feel brave, since the information could be dangerous. there are more constructive ways of being smart and brave, like joining the fire department. But being a conspiracy guy is a lot easier since all you have to do is stay plugged into the weirdo news outlets and such.
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I think all those conspiracy theories are put out there on purpose by the government just to confuse us and keep our eyes off the Real Conspiracy Amongst Us…fluoride in our drinking water! 🙂
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I actually was confronted with this recently. An old friend asked me to meet him at a public library. He came with a long list of topics he wanted to discuss: the Illuminati, the Bildebergers, comets, government takeovers of everything, etc. My friend does not have a job. He lives on Social Security disability, would not attend any church I recommended, and still does not go to church for all I know. — Michael
That’s not surprising. Without a job or a life, he can spend 24/7/365 tracing all the tentacles of The Vast Conspiracy.
I see this in every sort of fandom — gamer, Furry, anime, Politics Politics Politics, the Net, whatever. It’s always the mooch-boys without the distraction of a job or life who are able to self-promote themselves or indulge their obsession without distraction. Show me a Big Name Fan/Netizen/Whatever and my first question is “Who’s the Sucker they’re mooching off of?”
And Conspiracy-a-Go-Go can detach you from reality like you wouldn’t believe. (Conspiracy Theories and Secret Societies for Dummies — good read — makes this point several times.) Check out Bob Dylan’s “Talking John Birch Society Blues” for an example. Or Chronicles of Narnia: The Last Battle — as in “THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”
And Born-Again Christians seem especially prone to Conspiracy Kookarama — check this article on the subject.
I usually play along, and try to get them to say something even more nutty. Bush was actually a reptilian alien… — Wayne
David Icke! With his Man-eating Reptoids from Inside The Hollow Earth and their Organic Robotoid puppets! (Tip: Only heavy doses of LSD allow you to see beneath their magickal/psychic disguises.)
…Proctor and Gamble worship Satan… — Wayne
As does everybody except The Truther (take a number and stand in line for the Black Mass). IRL, the “Proctor and Gamble Worship SATAN!” Truth(TM) was traced back to Amway.
…the earth is hollow and we are living on the inside… — Wayne
Cyrus “Koresh” Teed and his Cult of Koreshianity, late 19th Century!
…whatever might get them to cross the line into territory EVERYBODY thinks is crazy. — Wayne
Like a dose of Francis E Dec Esq? As in “COMMUNIST GANGSTER COMPUTER GOD ON THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON PUPPETING PARROT GANGSTER ASSASSINS THROUGH FRANKENSTEIN EARPHONE RADIO CONTROLS!!!!!!”?
But I expect you’ve run into cases where even that doesn’t work, and your next line says why:
One good line is that if there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of a conspiracy, that means the conspiracy has succeeded in covering it up. — Wayne
Because it is Literally IMPOSSIBLE to shake a Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory. Evidence against the Conspiracy is Obviously Disinformation Planted by The Conspiracy. Lack of evidence for The Conspiracy is PROOF! The Conspiracy is So Vast THEY Can Silence Anybody. (Except the Dedicated Heroic Truther, of course, which is the whole anchor into his ego.) “THE DWARFS ARE FOR THE DWARFS! WE WON’T BE TAKEN IN!”
And because they won’t let themselves be taken in, they can’t be taken out of the filthy Conspiracy stable into reality.
And again, Christians are very prone to locking themselves in that stable.
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I found a remedy for this on David Ker’s Lingamish website. Maybe it was posted here? Anyway, it’s a “prayer” of repentance for those who send or tell us things we need to know because of – you know – all the things we *don’t* know.
God, I hide my head in shame.
My idiotic emails [stupid “research” results] have
tarnished your name.
Instead of spreading lucidity,
I have been proclaiming stupidity.
Words of praise to you should be my song,
Not forwarded emails that are always wrong.
Help me not to waste others’ time,
But instead reflect on the divine.
Make me a fool for Christ. I am a fool.
But let me not be the enemy’s tool.
I have forwarded this to many people, and I have received fewer of these stupid things, but there are still those who choose to regale us with these at every gathering. Oh, well.
CJH
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I really do think ten such people as the guy who wrote the online article referenced above do less harm than someone such as Professor P.Z. Myers who desecrated an allegedly, and I’m really hoping it was only allegedly, consecrated Host as proof that he wasn’t scared of the zombie Catholic hordes adn their bread-god (and justified it because ‘Catholics killed Jews back in the Middle Ages’):
http://www.rense.com/general81/whycth.htm
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_great_desecration.php
I have no idea where Mr. Fulford works or what he does, but I bet anything you like that he has less influence than Professor Myers, who influences his students by his attitude to religion (it’s all crazy stupidity, and shouldn’t be tolerated even to the extent of humouring your nutty aunt).
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I work with a lot of low income people in chronic pain, and there’s a real tendency to believe these stories and theories. It seems like fairly intelligent, but uneducated people who feel shut out from society go there pretty easily.
I’m not there to talk to them about this in my work capacity, so I listen and try to move the conversation back to areas where I can help. I always leave these appointments feeling fearful. I think there’s a part of me that can’t dismiss these things out of hand (it’s not the reasonable, logical side of me.)
A lady was telling me that Obama had begun conscripting a personal army–that people had no choice whether to join or not–that he was working for the Anti-Christ and that it was too late. I tried to joke it off (and gently let her know that I wanted to move on), saying: “I hope that it’s not too late! I’ve got a three-year-old and an eighteen month-old that I’d love to see grow up and raise their kids!” –She looked me in the eye and said, “It’s too late for them.” Thanks lady!
Another fear that this kind of talk brings up in me is that Christians might just be capable of making Hal Lindsey’s nightmares come true by taking their eschatology into politics. It seems like some policies (especially in regards to Israel and the Arab world) that evangelicals support could best be described as “pro-armageddon.” I wonder if it ever occurs to Hagee and his camp that there could be a huge war (even in Megeddo) and that it wouldn’t necessarily put the return of Christ any closer.
Here I go again!
I guess what I need and what my clients who are believers need is the quiet trust that can sustain us through crisis–whether global or personal. May God give us grace to know it!
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Speaking as a mind-controlled drone amongst thousand of millions enmeshed by an ancient secretive cult that is engaged in a vast global conspiracy that spans millenia and is slowly working behind the scenes to attain ultimate power and crush all dissent under the autocratic rule of a semi-divine priest-king (otherwise known as the Roman Catholic Church), let me just say that the nuttier the theory, the more sympathy I have for the person spouting it.
For instance, I have been vastly amused by an article (courtesy of Mark Shea) that, amongst other things, asks the RCs to return the loot stolen from the Temple of Solomon (?) and to “(c)onsider, for example, the teaching that only humans have souls. What about whales? What about Chimpanzees and Bonobos that share more than 98% of our genes.”
When the craziness is ramped up this high, I don’t actually mind it as much as I do those who spout off nonsense about history or other easily verifiable matters of fact that ten minutes on Google would easily refute (“Nine million witches slain in the Burning Times!”). That kind of thing irritates me, but what really drives me up the wall are those who claim to be rational or reasoners or scientifically minded, yet dismiss any attempt at correction and sneer that the theology behind the views they are misrepresenting is not worth their time to glance at.
Those in a position to perpetuate a biased and even false account, which will have real repercussions and real effects on how policy and social attitudes are formed, worry me far more than the “Did you know that bar-codes contain the Number of the Beast?” types.
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Sounds like the experience of this group is with people who have borderline to serious psychological problems, which is not something I would know how to address. However, from the spiritual side, I would suggest that paranoia is derived, at least in part, from fear and a lack of control over one’s life. The lack of control is reality, it must be accepted, but fear is a problem Christians can tackle. Christ tells us “Be not afraid” again and again. That would be the answer I’d offer.
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Sigh of frustration. Why do so many who go looney tune go the religious looney route? Conspiracy theorists really amuse me. this world is so unorganized, perhaps they just wish someone was in charge.
After decades of trying, I admit, if they listen to Short Wave, they won’t listen to me.
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This won’t be the most Jesus-shaped answer, but it really depends on how much I care about the person spouting the ignorance. If I care about the person I’ll correct them (to the extent they’re willing to engage the issue and be rational) If I don’t care about the person, I usually cringe inwardly at the stupidity of the masses and attempt to ignore it (read: “rant about it to someone I care about later”).
Like I said, it’s not the most Jesus-shaped answer, what with the whole “don’t the tax collectors and sinners do the same?” bit.
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Michael/Psonnets:
*The only caveat I have to pooh-poohing every wild idea is that we are tempted to think things will carry on more or less as they always have.*
Why? No viewpoint in history has ever been more sturdy or well-supported than, “What’s up ahead? Just one damn thing after another.”
*America will always be here – till Jesus comes!*
Uh huh.
*I think America will fall in my lifetime. How? I don’t know, really.*
Yeah, I think someone’s been staring too long at the old Course of Empire painting series.
*Maybe it will be as simple as this and a few future governments borrowing and spending the dollar into oblivion.*
‘Cause that’s *so* different from individual consumers borrowing and spending it into oblivion, right? Currency inflation: Not even *remotely* the worst thing that could befall a people.
*Maybe it will be a failed coup, like the Soviet Union’s*
Pretty sure that was a *successful* coup, that was.
*…and the states will spin off into separate nations, like the former Soviet republics.*
I can imagine many worse a fate than for Vermont to no longer have to subsidize Mississippi.
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“Your comment was published on the front page of InternetMonk.”
I’d have put that statement right up there with Obama’s birth certificate being faked, but gosh, it’s actually true!
I’m blown away. What a blessing this blog is.
Peace and Grace
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This kind of rhetoric just confirms my belief that reformed theology in its current iteration is a stunted and unlovely thing. It has nothing to say, or perhaps more correctly, says little about the relationship between the individual believer and the culture, philosophy, politics, etc. The gospel message is often little more than you’re a sinner, Jesus saves. We have a lot of work to do to help believers think through what it means to live, really live a life that’s pleasing to God, bearing fruit in every good work, etc.
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I’m just amazed how long this thread has gone on without an actual kook kicking down the door (possible exception: psonnets) insisting that no, no, no: They DID drill a hole to hell, Obama IS a gay/commie/Muslim/antichrist/Indonesian.
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N – you can be my hero for today.
“Several days later, after learning that I had set the record straight in my classes, she tried to get me fired (almost succeeded) arguing that even if the stories weren’t always totally verifiable, they served their purpose by deepening the kids’ faith, or fear of hell (or whatever it was).â€
I would tell this chick that a lie is a lie is a lie, and we all know who the father of all lies is… This kind of non-sense also helps to drive young people out of church when they realize they’ve been lied to. Church is supposed to be the place you go to hear truth not lies. All too many people make the mental connection that if they lied to me about A,B,C – then everything right down to X,Y,Z is a lie.
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The Holy Spirit works. If He doesn’t give you anything to say then don’t say anything. On the other hand….
I was ministering in a hospital in 1989 to a guy dying of Aids. He was a militant Gay guy big into the ‘Agenda’ crowd. He told me that Jerry Falwell had paid the US Govt millions of dollars to create Aids in order to devastate the Gay community. I listened patiently wondering what I would say to him. When he finished I simply said, ‘Ok, but if you think this was a US Govt plot do you really believe it would have been this effective?’ He was stymied.
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It’s amazing how far “gone” the people are whom the respondents above have encountered. It appears virtually no one can confront them, even in the gentlest way, and a substantial number of respondents have had contact completely ended if they tried. It appears that the great majority of people do not even try any kind of response anymore.
Why is this? And do you ever encounter people at an earler stage of these more or less paranoid obsessions, when one could conceivably have a dialog? I never have – the obsessions seem to spring full formed, move from one to another, and are never eased.
I think Sean’s response above makes sense for a Christian. Tell them that their beliefs should allow them not to worry about such goings-on, that they have better things to think about, and that their creed tells them that God has ultimate control.
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Oh, well…
As someone who grew up in a gunfire ridden nabe in Queens and now lives in Jersey, I know the appropriate response to this kind of garbage but I can’t write it here. That may sound “unChristian”, but sometimes you have to speak to people in the only language they understand.
I think the thing NOT to do is lend any credence to this nonsense by even superficially taking these people seriously. It may seem kinder and more “Christian” to be polite and try not to make them feel like the, well, things I can’t write here, but that’s what they are and the sooner you let them know, the sooner they can go about fixing themselves.
If they’re still too stupid to get it, they’ll probably end up doing something that qualifies them for a posthumous Darwin award, so…whatever…nature has a way of weeding out the ridiculously moronic among us.
We don’t get the more Christian-y versions of this kind of stupidity and ignorance in my neck of the woods, but we do have more than our fair share of 9-11 “Truthers” and all I can say is that sometimes it’s okay to haul off and punch someone’s teeth through the back of their heads. Sorry, but it’s true. There are some things you should NEVER tolerate, and that would be one of them.
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“as Christians we’re buying into beliefs and assertions that aren’t completely compatible with pure skepticism and ……we shouldn’t be too quick to judge people and their fringe beliefs and ideas along rational lines. Maybe we should concentrate rather on discerning the difference between the fruits of the Spirit and the products of fear”
Talking donkeys, changing water into wine etc…. As noted by RonP above, we need to be careful when we do what looks very much like throwing stones in glass houses.
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A while ago I had a friend tell me that some guest speaker at her church said that people in Illinois already had microchips with all their banking information implanted in their hands. When they went to the store, instead of paying cash/writing a check/using a debit card, they just swiped their hands over a scanner. I told her that guy was going straight to hell for telling whoppers like that in church. I also told her that stories like that would be easily verified in this day and age, and shame on her for not checking it out for herself.
Around the time Harry Potter IV came out The Onion ran a very funny story about how Harry Potter was teaching witchcraft to kids. Somone told me Evangelical Christians were sending it around as a real news story. I swore up and down that nobody would be stupid enough to fall for that. It was so obviiously a parody. So, I forwarded it to several friends. A few of them promptly responded by asking if I knew it was from The Onion. Two of them (including she of the microchip) fell for it – hook, line, and sinker.
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I think it’s important to remember that as Christians we’re buying into beliefs and assertions that aren’t completely compatible with pure skepticism and objectivity. Since we believe in many things that can’t be proven scientifically, we fall into the same category as those who think Obama is the antichrist (as far as the pure skeptic is concerned).
That said, maybe we shouldn’t be too quick to judge people and their fringe beliefs and ideas along rational lines. Maybe we should concentrate rather on discerning the difference between the fruits of the Spirit and the products of fear.
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You could try filing a bug report with God. On a more serious note, though I’m not a Christian these days, I still admire Bob Passatino’s stuff on legends (in the context of dealing with cults, but more generally applicable, I think).
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Ben,
i am with you on that!
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This is what happens when christian parents turn their children away from a scientific education out of fear that they’ll “lose their faith”.
Instead they risk losing their minds!
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I hate lies. How do I respond? It varies. If I’m not part of the conversation, I generally stay out, though I may correct the listeners privately afterwards.
If I am involved, I made a judgment call–I judge the person’s mind.
Some people are too far gone to reconsider their betes noirs–I keep still, change the subject or leave. Madison seems to have a surplus of aggressive 911 truthers, and they are not peaceful to be around. Since I have no special calling from God to administer a clue-by-four, I avoid these people: it seems the only way to live at peace with them.
Other people I know have a fixation on some conspiracy or another but are reasonable enough the rest of the time–with them I just try to avoid the crazy topics. This includes some friends and relatives, btw.
But if it is a dabbler, or someone I think might be amenable to discussion, then I try to ask questions. “How does a weather machine work–it takes huge amounts of energy to evaporate water to make extra clouds?” “If the TOTUS is a Muslim, wouldn’t he be under a death sentence for getting baptized and denying the faith?” “Is the _rate_ of violence higher in the post office than at a burger joint, or do we just hear about more incidents because there are so many more postal workers?” “Somebody told me that XX, which is a little odd with your YY”
With dabblers it helps–until they find a new theory to excite them.
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You mean that some people think Obama might be the Antichrist? When did this start?
Actually, In Michael D. O’Brian’s book, Father Elijah: An Apocalypse, he described (ten years ago) an antichrist figure who looks too much like BHO for comfort. Made me worry.
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What is the right response to ignorance, factual error and sweeping untruths?
It all depends on who the person is, how they are able to receive various sorts of correction, and what your relationship with them is like. In other words, one needs wisdom. Ridicule or scoffing just might be the thing certain people need. Proverbs 26:4-5
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Not everything that sounds crazy is untrue, but one of the things that I would suggest is not to belittle the person. It may be that some of the things that they may say sound downright crazy, but we are to still love them with the love of Christ. Listen to what they have to say. Show interest in them as a person even while what they are discussing may be annoying to you.
Ask questions but in a genuine way, not in a belittling way. If you have an opportunity, pray with them for the Lord to lead both of you in truth.
Many times there are opportunities in discussions to refocus on what is truly important. If you are having a difficult time with someone, turn to the Lord for help. Ask Him to guide your discussion and also to help you with patience. Ask the Lord for wisdom and humility.
Arguing, scoffing, rolling the eyes, laughing at, and outright dismissing are works of the flesh. With the Holy Spirit’s help, you will be able to love that person and maybe be used by the Lord to help realign that person’s focus on what is true.
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As a former journalist, I usually point out that most conspiracy theories require a level of secrecy that is impossible for humans to achieve. My work experience proves there’s always somebody willing to blab the unsavory details. Always. What is whispered in the ear will be proclaimed from the rooftops.
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Sorry about my multiple postings earlier. Hopefully can delete the first two. The computer kept saying there was an error so I would try again.
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“â€They drilled a hole to hell,â€â€¦.â€Obama is a Muslimâ€â€¦. â€NASA has proven the sun stands stillâ€â€¦.†9-11 was prophesied in Ezekielâ€â€¦. â€Christianity is going to be illegal by the next election.—
I know a woman in her 70s for which this is just a very very small sampling of her beliefs. Doctors are evil, our colons are 99% clogged with food we ate decades ago, missionaries are raising the dead in dark Africa, and on and on and on. And this started way before the Internet was a dream, much less an idea. Her kids discovered how entrenched these beliefs were when her husband died about a decade ago and things blossomed into full bloom. It turned out the husband had been keeping her quiet when company and family was around. They thought she was off but were only seeing 10% of the real person. And don’t even talk religion, it makes the other topics look mainstream. Did I mention she the best Christian she knows but doesn’t attend any churches because they are full of people who keep judging her? Well that’s her take on their inability to see her points as absolute truth.
Her kids have about given up. Conversations are one way lectures or shouting matches. Her 3 children talk to her maybe 12 times a year total. If that. Everyone who knows her is sad but can’t figure out how to help her. From her point of view it’s everyone else who needs help and she’s glad to dish it out if you even seem to want it.
Oh, yeah. She’s my mother. 😦
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Laughing and weeping aren’t mutually exclusive in this case.
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When these things pop up on our small group I have to think that we all have some little used room in our brain that we keep some odd things in. And usually we have a civil discussion about it. But at times you just have to smile and say “well, I’m not totally with you on that” and move on. If they will not “move on” they usually leave the group. In my small group we have multiple engineers, highly respected medical professionals, some other PhDs in areas such as math, etc… So it’s hard for some of this to “slip by”.
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Once I asked, “How does spending hours on the computer instead of on family responsibilities increase your personal holiness or advance the cause of Christ?” I got the answer that once learning about the possibility of a Jesuit conspiracy or machinations of the Fed, it is a Christian’s duty to seek truth by investigating the possibility thoroughly (mostly via Coast to Coast AM and the like). I have no idea how to answer that, frankly.
Also tried the “stranger story” approach, bringing up the lizard shapeshifters. I was told that is a silly government-originated story designed to discredit conspiracy theorists and therefore it proves the reality of the New World Order.
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Oh and I shouldn’t neglect to add
“chem-trails” to the list .
Mom knows all about them AND the weather machine in Alaska.
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“Several days later, after learning that I had set the record straight in my classes, she tried to get me fired (almost succeeded) arguing that even if the stories weren’t always totally verifiable, they served their purpose by deepening the kids’ faith, or fear of hell (or whatever it was).”
She feels the ends justify the means.
I personally feel very strongly that the Christian faith requires the means to justify the end result. I.E. how you walk the walk is more important than where you wind up.
I was told in a sermon once that only 1 in 4 of the people Jesus personally asked to follow his way did so. (I’d like to know if this is accurate.) If so, why should we expect to bat 1000. And justify this goal via untruths.
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Oh boy, my Ma keeps some of these “issues” in the weekly-phone-call area of her mind just to share with me !
She gets some of these from her Roman Catholic magazine.
When Ma, brings up conspiracy stuff I usually ask a couple of questions, adjust my tin-foil-hat, and then say something like; “… we have no control over any of these problems so why waste time fretting. Get out of the house,look up at the stars and thank God for the beauty all around us…”
Or something like that.
My Ma is much less vulnerable to these scary scenarios when she is getting out of the house and volunteering a lot. The more she is home and isolating the more stuff I (and my siblings) get in the mail. Stuff that I am supposed to be scared of. More phone-time wasted on the merry-go-round.
Maybe it is all true and real but with Christ in our sights why pursue that other junk.
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Have you been listening to Christian Shortwave?? Wow, you still have the desire to get up in the morning. A local group hoisted an antenna up in the suburbs and started spitting out Alex Jones on their unlicensed radio station. It gave me flashbacks to those days of hearing Pete Peters and “Patriot” programming. The stuff gives “unhinged” a new meaning.
(Of course this doesn’t include actual mission shortwave stations like HCJB and TWR. I was at HCJB’s Quito studios and hospital awhile back — real ministry is going on there)
If someone is really railing on and on about a new conspiracy theory, I usually hear them out for a few seconds and then start asking questions — what evidence? What about direct evidence to the contrary? Do you realize how much of life can be explained away with “and that’s exactly what they want you to think”? How much is the book and/or DVD and/or seminar that goes along with the rant? Does that phrase “Bearing False Witness” mean anything to paranoid Christians, even if Obama isn’t a Muslim or Bush isn’t declaring himself emperor for life? As a Christian, why are you spending your life living in fear and worry?
After a few minutes of this, I’m pretty much done. If it’s someone I know and/or deal with daily, I’ll give them what I can to balanced out their thinking….I’m not going to deal with crackpot theories without pushing back. But if it’s someone who I run into at a store or out around town I’ll be more likely to ask a few questions to see if they’re just spreading rumors.
In my early 20s my substitute pastor spread the rumor that Janet Reno was blacklisting Christians and planning for them to be singled out for arrest. I had to be nice, but I firmly told him that it simply wasn’t true. At first he wouldn’t hear of it, but I told him I could send him a few links to proved this was a lie. Later on he recanted.
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I actually have a boilerplate letter for when people send me hoaxes via e-mail:
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The only problem with this is that it’s not true. Here’s the true story: <>. Please be sure to notify all the people you sent this to that it is in fact a hoax.
And PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, before you forward any e-mail purporting to be “a true story” or “latest news” or anything like that, regardless of the reliability of the person who sent it to you, check first. Go to http://www.truthorfiction.com or http://www.snopes.com and see if it’s actually true. If you can’t do that basic amount of research, you shouldn’t be forwarding things anyway. God calls us to be good stewards of what He’s given us, and that includes the Internet — He is not glorified by lies being spread, no matter how well-intentioned.
(Sorry, but I get a lot of these hoax e-mails — it’s beyond annoying at this point.)
r.a.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
And then I send it to them, and to everyone else they sent it to. Call it my zero-tolerance policy.
As for people who tell me this stuff in person, I usually just come in when they stop for breath with, “Oh. Thank you for informing me.” Then I walk away. I don’t argue with them for the same reason I don’t teach mules to sing: you don’t get anywhere, and it just annoys the mule.
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I just stopped opening my uncle’s emails…
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I like your last option – top it with a stranger story! Why not have some fun.
Do you ever remember changing any of these folks minds?
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I usually point out the error. I don’t know if I’d go so far as to say that’s the “right” response, though. It’s not uncommon for me to find myself in debates over the stupidest things. I’m not a quitter! ;O)
I’ve learned that you are ANTI-AMERICAN if you point out that there is no truth whatsoever in the urban legend about George Bush blowing off the first 30 minutes of a fancy gala to witness to a teenager and lead him to Christ…but if you say that Obama is a Muslim who was born in Africa/Indonesia/Jupiter/Hell and absolutely *is* the Antichrist, then you’re a true patriot.
(The political ones usually get me in the most trouble.)
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The only caveat I have to pooh-poohing every wild idea is that we are tempted to think things will carry on more or less as they always have. America will always be here – till Jesus comes! I think America will fall in my lifetime. How? I don’t know, really. Maybe it will be as simple as this and a few future governments borrowing and spending the dollar into oblivion. Maybe it will be a failed coup, like the Soviet Union’s, and the states will spin off into separate nations, like the former Soviet republics.
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It’s everywhere. I’ve lost a lot of good friends over these stories. Not because I was rough on them (I treat these people with velvet gloves) but if refuse to join their nonsense (Y-2-K prep Bible studies . . . just a starter) they get mad and don’t want anything to do with me again.
Depends on the offense. Simple ones, like my neighbor telling me that God had called him to be a dowser ( http://www.dowsers.org/ ) I just smiled and say nice. When a deacon of a church I was in told me that he had heard on the short wave that Jesus had appeared in India and was already going from village to village raising the dead Christians . . . that I did not allow to get buy.
God is a God of truth. Doubting what men tell you is a gift and an art-form.
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Definitely depends on the type of crazy, but my experience has been that with a particular type, namely the paranoid, government is taking over everything, etc that Michael of http://www.psonnets.org/ mentioned, it’s best to acknowledge the possibility of their fears first. It’s easy to allow them to frame the argument as “it’s possible this thing is true” vs. “you need to prove this crazy thing isn’t true”. Allowing for the possibility and moving on (as quickly as possible!) allows you to address the deeper problems, like “so what if the government is insane, what’s important is that God is taking care of us”. I have no idea how far that method applies, but I remember the “sure it’s possible, but what’s likely and real given that God cares for us?” question more or less saving my mental life during my skeptical college years.
I’m curious–do you dismiss the crazy beliefs, or investigate them and see them as crazy, or do a bit of work to recognize the crazy beliefs as such? It might just be my personality, but I often fall into the last category, which means I have trouble quickly talking people out of bad beliefs unless I have talked myself out of such beliefs. If it’s something I haven’t investigated, I usually just listen and ask them to call me when they’re having a particularly bad day.
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good question(s) – go out for some drinks, a movie or a ball game (the more people the better)…get’em out of the mind funk and back to reality!
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Oh Michael, you’re talking about a group of people that I know all too well. It runs in my family (my father believed that all Jews stayed home from the twin towers on 9/11). Conspiratorial thinking is easy. It’s deeply Manichean. It solves so many problems. Trying to talk to someone who holds strongly to these views is difficult to say the least. I work in Christian retail. Most of the time I have customers who are local and who know me. Generally they know I’m knowledgeable about theological issues, and are willing to listen. But occasionally I get someone who has a firm conviction that a certain “truth” is real. Nowadays it revolves around Obama. He’s a convenient scapegoat. Sekrit Muslim, radikal kommie, etc, etc. If it’d been fifty years ago, we’d be talking about Kennedy being a pawn of the Papists. Fear of the other is deep rooted. The world changes, and that scares people. Right now I’m trying to figure out how best to talk to my evangelical friends about faith and science as regards evolution. Ultimately it’s a mindset. If someone you’re talking to allows for alternate views, engage them. If they immediately launch into attack mode, nod and smile…and walk away.
Be firm and gracious. But make sure that you stay with each no matter who you engage with.
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Good question, Michael.
My usual answer is the conspiracy is so big it seems normal because everyone is in on it.
Which means its really sooper-dooper top secret. So we don’t have to worry about it anymore.
My bigger concern is for the rising paranoia/schizophrenia such talk seems to produce among people who feel like they don’t have enough information to get along in this world. It’s kind of like information overload short-circuiting a person’s thought processes.
Remember Future Shock? I think this is the result in some people’s lives.
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Set up a rule so their emails go directly into the “junk” folder.
Seriously I have no idea. After too many arguments about whether or not Obama was the Antichrist or the legitimacy of 90% of modern “prophecy” I usually just keep my mouth shut unless I know it is a person open to actual discussion and exchange of ideas.
I’m with Ed though. My poor wife ends up having to hear what I really think later.
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i gently correct them when they come on email and add the
snopes link. I even hot “reply all” when the person has been uncool enough to not blind copy.
Amazingly, this pastoral loves often ends relationships..
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The most important thing is to try to keep them from getting elected.
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I usually play along, and try to get them to say something even more nutty. Bush was actually a reptilian alien, there’s actually no law that says we have to pay taxes, Proctor and Gamble worship Satan, the earth is hollow and we are living on the inside…whatever might get them to cross the line into territory EVERYBODY thinks is crazy.
One good line is that if there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of a conspiracy, that means the conspiracy has succeeded in covering it up.
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At the Christian school where I teach, it often falls upon me to refute these Christian urban legends the day after a guest speaker builds his chapel talk around one or more of them. I’m glad you brought this up. One year recently, without my knowledge, the wife of a board member “sponsored” the biggest urban legend spouter ever to speak to our students. Several days later, after learning that I had set the record straight in my classes, she tried to get me fired (almost succeeded) arguing that even if the stories weren’t always totally verifiable, they served their purpose by deepening the kids’ faith, or fear of hell (or whatever it was). I’m eager to read comments.
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hmmm… this is almost like an open door for a good rant. First, it is, once again, comforting to know that there is nothing new under the sun – we all have these friends, and some of us are these friends.
I get these informative revelation sharings quite frequently. The email forwards, I usually just point to Snopes, which has almost always already debunked whatever apocalyptic nugget is being offered. The personal conversations are a bit more tricky. I think it depends on the “informer” – typically I try to offer up a differing, if not opposing, viewpoint to determine if there is a little room for a discussion. Occasionally, the person who is sharing the (mis)information does it in such a way that it falls under the “pearls before swine” category. I used to feel very conflicted for just leaving it alone, but I’ve learned to accept the gracious fact that it is not *always* my duty to point out the faulty logic in every ridiculous argument I ever hear. I have learned to hold my tongue sometimes and just acknowledge the statement without validating it (quite a balancing act, to be sure!)
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Call Chicken Little.
Arguing with a fool proves there are two.
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Try to identify root issues, I suppose. How we’re not content with God, and his clear revelation about Himself. We want a new revelation about anything.
I don’t see how one could claim a sovereign, loving, powerful God who reigns and will ultimately triumph if one is constantly worried about conspiracy theories and such.
And I don’t see how one could claim to pursue humility if you think the bible is prophetically all about the life and times of 21st century Americans.
…things of that nature.
Remember Driscoll’s talk about idolatry at Advance? These are (most likely) issues pertaining to worship.
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there may be a clear course of action in the DSM IV manual that more appropriately diagonses the real issue here – but IMHO..
Most of “these guys” that are prone to the black helicopter / skunk op’s / dental implants group seem to have several things in common
1. They are involved in some form or fashion of dominion theology
2. They often are heavily drawn to contflict and cite Revelations as their favorite book of the Bilble
3. They often live in conflict with ANYBODY who has a different view.. SO…..
My course of action is to slowly back away and make no sudden noises, trying not to alert their overdeveloped sense of awareness or the fact I’m really a secret spy working for the Illuminati via a rogue cell of the Tri-lateral commision.
Seriously – I belive our responsiblity as Christ’s Disciples is to share truth whenever deception raises it’s head IN LOVE, and that might require time and patience for the right moment including letting ourselves resist the chance to ridicule.
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Although my postings here might often be taken as acerbic (apologies to anyone adversely impacted) I generally prefer a civil discussion wherein I simply state or explain my beliefs on the subject at hand rather than challenge directly what my friend is saying. More “I think” and less “You are wrong”.
And some things are not worth damaging a friendship over. Just last week I resorted to “Can we please switch to a happier subject? I’m on vacation” when the couple we were staying with decided to go on a tirade, at the breakfast table, about the Obama administration’s diabolical plans for the economy.
I save the eyes rolled, “can you believe what they said” routine until I’m alone later with my wife (who is an saint at staying out of any of these kinds of situations).
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I actually was confronted with this recently. An old friend asked me to meet him at a public library. He came with a long list of topics he wanted to discuss: the Illuminati, the Bildebergers, comets, government takeovers of everything, etc. My friend does not have a job. He lives on Social Security disability, would not attend any church I recommended, and still does not go to church for all I know. He spends a lot of time online. I told him he needed to stop studying these things because he might lose his mind. He may already have lost it. Although he did not make a big fuss about it, he wondered aloud whether the room we were in might be bugged.
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He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool … shun him.
He who knows not and knows that he knows not, is ignorant … teach him.
He who knows and knows not that he knows, is asleep … wake him.
He who knows and knows that he knows, is a wise man … follow him.
Persian Proverb
I then spend a lot of time in prayer seeking for an opportunity to point out the error(s).
While on the subject of provervbs I apply this one to my own reaction in cases like this.
God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
the courage to change the things I can;
and the wisdom to know the difference.
reinhold niebuhr
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