UPDATE: In addition to criticizing Driscoll for his nutty exegesis of Song of Solomon and his less than impressive analysis of The Shack, I’ve backed up Pastor Mark before.
It became painfully/strangely/humorously obvious at this week’s SBC meeting that a lot of people are worried about Mark Driscoll.
I’d like to suggest a brief program to calm you people down before you hurt yourselves, or worse, start a preaching series on cursing preachers who link sex toys on their sermon pages.
1. First, cards on the table: I am, for the most part, a supporter of Driscoll. I’m not in agreement with him on gender issues, and I’ll criticize him without mumbling on a collection of boneheaded maneuvers. But the guy’s vulnerability, passion for the Gospel, missionary’s heart, vision for church planting and insight into contemporary ministry far outweigh his flaws. Give him a few years and some room to be a goober.
2. The 75% of the problem you people have with Driscoll is that he’s bone-headed enough to hang some of his laundry out on the clothesline where we can see it. Trust me: all your preacher-heroes are flawed in ways that would disappoint you. Driscoll’s flaws simply have to do with his public persona. The other 25% really are flaws that, while not disqualifying, do need to be repaired, and I am confident they will be.
3. Much of the Driscoll hysteria is pure hype. Donald Miller called him the cussing preacher and most of you think Donald Miller is an emerging church apostate. Can you locate a quote of Driscoll “cussing” in a sermon? (We’ll talk about his topical and vocabulary choices in a moment.) I heard him say “Who the hell do you think you are?” once. If you have the impression that Driscoll’s language is the swearing equivalent of Good Will Hunting, you’re misinformed.
4. Here’s the deal: when he’s on the topic of sex, he talks like he’s on late night television. IOWs, he discusses sex very much unlike any preacher you know, and more like a typical guy in Seattle. He needs to change this. The problem is that Driscoll’s success has given him an audience of people who have no place whatsoever to process a joke about masturbation, etc. or to see Driscoll as embarrassing, but not dangerous.
5. My good friend- and I mean that folks- Frank Turk and I are going to have a mini-debate on here sometime regarding whether and how Driscoll should apologize for the extent of his poor example and distraction to the Gospel. I believe Driscoll’s willingness- imperfect as it may be- to be mentored by men like John Piper is as good an example as his occasionally crude words are a bad example.
6. Most of Driscoll’s problems relate to a sermon series that I believe was an unmitigated disaster. I’m willing to give the guy that one. I expect him to learn a few things.
7. If your pastor or youth minister is behaving poorly, it’s an issue in your church and in his context. Don’t think a motion at the SBC is going to make your little Driscoll fanboy sit up and fly right. That’s your bad choice of a person to work at your church. I’d advise you to get him a mentor and some feedback, and see if he grows.
8. Definitions of “holiness” in evangelicalism can get pretty prissy. The Bible has a lot of characters who are a lot more like Driscoll than they are like some prissy, fussy, fainting, prude of a morality cop. Men respect Driscoll for his imperfect holiness. People who are offended at his imperfect holiness may be in a zone that the rest of us should avoid anyway. Sometimes what offends you is offensive, and sometimes it’s an indication you ought to be doing something more constructive with your time.
9. Banning Driscoll at Lifeway will do exactly nothing…..except maybe make him more interesting. The man has millions of mp3 and video downloads a month. Lifeway books aren’t actually where those who like his preaching plug into him. This is the way the world works now. Denominational approval is not required. Piper GIVES AWAY his books for Pete’s sake. If the SBC votes that Driscoll is bad, a few people feel better and Driscoll’s stuff sells 5% more than last month.
10. Listen carefully: preacher boys liking Driscoll has to do with Driscoll getting about 25 things right most of the critics have been complaining about for years. If he grows as a person in the next 5 years in the directions most of us think he will, I don’t think you are going to want to have dumped him in the trash for being young and arrogant on occasion.
The Internet Monk Archives 
It seems like Jesus gave an easy “test” for Mark or any of us.
“You shall know a tree by its fruit”
Does Driscoll preach the gospel?
Yes
Does the gospel bear fruit?
Colossians 1:6….” All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God’s grace in all its truth.”
Therefore-Philippians 1:18 “What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.”
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My mistake Monk – sorry to jump to conclusions and for briefly getting up on a soapbox. feel free to delete or moderate my comment. Your blog is terrific; I’ve enjoyed your opinions and reading it daily.
Peace to you as well
Steve
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Steve R: I was not calling you falsely pious or thinking of you when I wrote the sentence. I see how you made the connection, but that wasn’t my intention.
Sorry for lack of a proper emoticon to say “not talking about you.”
peace man
ms
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Thanks Michael,
I think your post was balanced. My son attends Mark’s church and it has been used of God to cause amazing growth and vibrancy in my son. When he arrived in the Seattle area to work for Microsoft he was far from the Lord…God used the ministry there to get him back into Scripture study, love for the LORD and for His people.
Someone commented that the church was not friendly; but my son has found the opposite to be true…then again my son is out-going. He joined a community group—yes, he had to speak to them twice about it , but they did plug him in to one.
Anyways, thanks for your balanced approach to Mark. I think any pastor would have problems to one degree or another if the spotlight is placed on him ;-). Everyone falls short at times.
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I nearly thoroughly enjoyed the SoS series he “produced” / taught on. I don’t care for the shouting at all, whether by him or any other pastor for that matter. You know it goes too far when he loses his voice. ๐
Of course, I also don’t care for any pastor or teacher or whatever that calls us to honor the wives, mothers, etc, but then tears about man, fathers, husbands a month later. And you guys and gals know exactly what I’m talking about. Just look at your congregations the 2nd Sunday of May vs. the 3rd Sunday of June. What does your pastor preach on?
Sadly, in the same manner, but without losing their voices, as Driscoll. And yes, I’ve seen this for years, too.
I wouldn’t say I’m a fanboy. I hated that he got so much PR from his renouncing of “The Shack” despite never having read it. Of course, I’m learning the same thing about Harry Potter and how much truth and the Larger Story are within that. Maybe Twilight next?
On that topic, I think he did a fantastic job with the ABC discussion of Satan and the realities of spiritual warfare.
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Wasn’t aware that you and Martha had some history; I’ll leave it alone and let you two sort it out.
> For the record, the รขโฌลhumble Christianรขโฌย
> blogs do not usually impress me with
> humility, but with false
> piety.
False piety? *Now* you’re being a jerk. How can you accuse me of being falsely pious when you don’t even know where I’m coming from?
No, I’m not falsely pious. Believe me, I’ve been been taught humility MANY times in my life. Trust me buddy, when you raise yourself up on a pedestal, it hurts that much more when God knocks you down.
> Iรขโฌโขm not about to become a timid soul.
Humility and timidity are not synonymous. Jesus was humble, but He didn’t have any qualms overturning the tables at the temple. Humility means realizing that everything you have: knowledge, power, wealth, etc. are gifts from God and not created by you. I didn’t ask you to be a church lady, I said we were interested in your opinion, and that alienating religions like Archie Bunker isn’t going to help your point.
I like a lot of what you have to say, but I can easily throw away the parts where you snipe at Catholics.
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Steve R: I didn’t condescend to Martha earlier. I was answering her in kind, so you are correct I was not making a demonstration of humility. Martha is not bashful and she posts with plenty of vinegar. She’s well aware that I will answer in kind and she never shrinks from having her say. We acknowledged that discussion via email. It was Martha who brought Driscoll’s Catholicism into the discussion. Please note her quips following my “unhumble” reply. She dishes it out as well as anyone I know, and I respect that.
I may be lacking humility in my answer because I wasn’t trying to be humble. Martha and several other Catholic commenters occasionally trod into evangelical conversations and say their peace. I answer as addressed. And the favor is returned to me when I step into RC territory.
Martha wrote me via email and acknowledged our exchange. We remain friends and we remain very opinionated. That’s good for business and makes good friendships off line.
For the record, the “humble Christian” blogs do not usually impress me with humility, but with false piety. I could name names. So I appreciate an admonition to not be a jerk, but I’m not about to become a timid soul.
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> Itรขโฌโขs clear to me that whatever version of this
> youรขโฌโขve heard on the Catholic side, youรขโฌโขre far more > interested in using it to …
—
> Good thing Mark abandoned His Catholic upbringing…
Monk – the undertones in your and a lot of your readers’ responses are coming across as a little patronizing to Catholics. Let me remind you that we are *knowingly* reading a blog written by a Southern Baptist, so please respond with some humility– realizing that we’re interested in your opinion. We all are here because we love Jesus and we’re looking for your insight. I’m not personally offended, but I do feel like you were a little condescending to Martha earlier, and I’m not even sure if she caught on to it.
In any case, your blog actually turned me on to Driscoll, and I watched one of his sermons this Sunday– the one about false teachers. I like his style a lot because (1) he comes across as a teacher and not as a condemner, and (2) he is frank in his lessons. Driscoll comes across as a real human being who is preaching the Word because he has a passion for it, and is trying to share it with the world.
That said, I’d be afraid that in a few years Driscoll’s passion might diminish and that he’d be just going through the rote. He preaches with so much fervor now that I’d worry he won’t be able to keep it up!
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Banning Driscoll at Lifeway will do exactly nothingรขโฌยฆ..except maybe make him more interesting. The man has millions of mp3 and video downloads a month. Lifeway books arenรขโฌโขt actually where those who like his preaching plug into him. This is the way the world works now. Denominational approval is not required. Piper GIVES AWAY his books for Peteรขโฌโขs sake. If the SBC votes that Driscoll is bad, a few people feel better and Driscollรขโฌโขs stuff sells 5% more than last month.
This is so very true. I think we all get our stuff from Amazon.com anyways these days. ๐
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You say in towards the beginning of your post that Driscoll is too loose with his speach on sexuality and should change. I wonder if you are fully considering the culture that he is speaking into. sure, you never hear any pastor go where he goes on the topic, but given the age demographics and lifestyle of his church I have to think that he spends more time there because it’s one of the his churches bigger issues.
It is Seattle, ya know..
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I’m reading where he puts the marriage between Christ and his bride (i.e. the church) in a polymorphously perverse subtext — for laughs. And no, although I wouldn’t chose to attend a sermon (or lecture) about the SoS as an instructional manual, I could not care less. That’s just the class I wouldn’t sign up for, or the Sunday I’d play Holy Hooky. I’m talking about when Driscoll gets all homophobic (and frankly, offensive) about the idea of marriage being a shadow or type of Christ and the church. It’s gross and immature and benefits no one.
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I’ve read some of the stuff Driscoll says about men’s God-given right to rule women. I don’t care if he swears; I don’t care if he talks about sex. I do care that he clearly, honestly believes women are second-class citizens of the Kingdom. Enough said.
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I’ll admit that I’ve had problems with Driscoll in the past, mostly from sermon clips I seen or read about, and I have a big problem with big egos. But after reading his books I’ve come to trust him. A lot. It’s easier for me to extend grace and the benefit of the doubt now. Thanks for the post, Michael.
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MARK DRISCOLL IS NOT SBC.
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When I look to Mark as an example, I tend to look to his theology.
When I’m looking to Christian men on how to conduct one’s self as a minister, a pastor and human being, I find myself looking to other men.
How we treat people says a lot about us, and if we treat them poorly it can negate just about everything good that we do. For some reason, Christians in general just don’t seem to get that.
Nor care.
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In a few years we will not be able to recognize Mark Driscol from any other upward mover in the SBC he to is subject to co-opting by the big machine of progress. New Chapmans are just around the corner but we SouthernBaptist have a problem recognizing the truth even when it is obvious. JB
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Michael, regarding your comment regarding my comment earlier about imperfect holiness, I was picking up on your own phrase about Mark Driscoll’s “imperfect holiness” in your original post. I was thinking more of the whole context of the first chapter of I Peter and not in a “law vs. grace” sense.
All of us are exhorted to “be holy” and of course all of us are imperfectly holy. But some of us (I include myself here) do seem to be more imperfect than others ….
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The word “but” appears 59 times in the comments so far.
Isn’t it an old truism that using “but” in effect negates what was said before? That being said, it seems there is quite a bit of faint praise being given ahead of more firmly held beliefs.
Just my observation – but I could be wrong ๐
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Imonk et al,
Contextualisation is important, being culturally in touch is important, and I think MD has some very helpful insights but I think holiness is more important. We are to be set apart for God’s special use and not be like the world (which is what Ephesians 4:17 – 5:20 is all about). Our ministries will not glorify God if our actions are subverting the very gospel that we seek to proclaim to unbelievers. And this is my greatest concern regarding Mark – that he is unwittingly subverting the very gospel he is proclaiming to unbelievers.
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Karl Kroger’s post was the best of the entire thread.
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Ya know – I never really had a problem with him. I’m in Seattle. I’ve attended his church. I won’t say that I came away from his sermons unfed – but I will say I came away from his church unloved. I’m sorry, it may be just Seattle or the mega-church that is Mars Hill but after a month no one spoke to me.
The person at the “Welcome” counter pointed me at a box to put my “new visitor” card in and then turned their back on me and walked away.
The girl tending the children’s ministry counter pointed me at an application packet and likewise turned away.
The signing up I did at the proper counter for a Bible study group never got a response at all.
You will know them by their love? Um… not at Mars Hill.
Oh – and when I mentioned any of that in my blog? Their team of techno-professionals apparently Googled the reference and responded with a vague, “nobody’s perfect” but still didn’t bother to leave their name or even say hi.
The shape of his church / business – that’s the problem I have with Mark Driscoll.
(For the record – it took me a year to find a solid Bible preaching, God loving church in Seattle. I found a tiny fellowship called Emmaus Road and couldn’t be happier.)
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Good thing Mark abandoned His Catholic upbringing to become a voice of the Charismatic,Reformed,ex-emergent, stylish exciting ever old ever new brand of protestant Christianity that highlights gender roles and a Jesus tougher than Rocky, with revolutionary insights on human sexuality that pre date Christianity. I can’t wait to see the next Driscoll in years to come, if their is any consistency in this world I’m sure he or she will provide us with some novel doctrine or moral taboo to question.
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Driscoll wouldn’t be such a bad guy if he wasn’t a jerk.
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Disclaimer – I’m coming from a place where I think actions and our words are way more important than having the perfect theology.
I have such mixed feelings about Driscoll. Mostly, I just feel very uncomfortable.
The good – being direct, real, and honest, creating space where some Seattle urbanites are more likely to want to learn about Jesus.
The problem – what is he really teaching them about the character of Jesus?
I went to a Seattle Mars Hill satellite church service once, and Driscoll was doing the preaching, via satellite of course. ๐
In the space of less than half an hour, he put down Catholic Christians (I cannot remember for certain whether it was an attack on their salvation or their sincerity, but either way, very bad), he publicly castigated a couple of his own satellites, and essentially stated that all the ‘real’ men in Seattle were attending Mars Hill. Now, the rest of his message might have been a theological wonder, but I was way too horrified and distracted to care anymore.
From local news this last winter, one couple who lives way south near Portland did risk life and limb to drive up to his church service in snow conditions that were so bad authorities were begging people not to drive in it. Driscoll made a big point to hold them up as wonderful examples of dedication, while putting down those people in his church who had shown some common sense and stayed home.
So my concern has nothing to do with an occassional sermon that some might consider ‘out there’, or so called vulgar language.
My concern is what is he really teaching people, many of whom are new Christians , about the true character of Jesus and how we are to relate to others?
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The controversy around Driscoll sounds a little like the controversy around Christopher West (although it’s more subdued in West’s case). Not familiar enough with Driscoll to really comment further.
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Ok… totally off topic…
While reading the local news in my community I came across this tidbit about a New Wine Harvest Church, formerly in an old Lutheran Church, haing bought an old social hall- drinking establishment:
“We tried the same thing where we are now,” the Rev. Huhn said. “We took out pews and made room for contemporary worship and a coffee bar on Saturday nights and jazz and blues nights, but the space was still a little confining for our vision.”
New Wine leaders plan to convert a downstairs room in the former social hall into a nursery and create a combination sanctuary and dance floor for “worship dance.”
Question is – What is worship dance? (I’m a Catholic and I guess I am a bit “worship challenged” once we get passed Liturgical services).
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go ahead
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Great thoughts here, Michael, and what I think is some very wise counsel (particularly point 10). Would you mind if I republished these on my blog?
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Michael, thanks for the Youtube pointer.
I think.
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Anna, thanks. I’m clearly still not over that one. ๐
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Hey, aaron, are any still available? I’d like at least 3; one for me and 2 to share.
I’d be willing to attempt a trade for a Catholic version. I’m sure that Martha and I can come up with it easily. As long as Pope Benedict with his red hat and the white fur is December’s. (GRIN)
Brendt, I had to laugh about your “Read with Deiscernment” stickers.
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Brendt Waters: It’s all on Youtube. Motions at SBC. The earliest one.
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Frank Turk: Iรขโฌโขm reading the meta here and Iรขโฌโขm gonna go have to lie down.
Just wait til he gets back up and reads aaron’s comment. ๐
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I read “a motion at the SBC” in #7, and immediately thought “You gotta be kidding me.”
Then I read “Banning Driscoll at Lifeway” in #9 and I thought “You gotta be kidding me” — except “kidding” wasn’t the actual word that went through my head.
Why don’t they just slap one of their patented “Read with Discernment” labels on his books? Then the sheeple will know that they need discernment to read Driscoll’s stuff (but not for Osteen’s stuff).
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Driscoll not only scares me in certain things, but he also is an inspiration too. At times, I just wish that pastors would try not to pull an act but just be honest with the congregation in preaching, post-service fellowship, etc.
Though his style prolly wouldn’t cut it anywhere else apart from where he’s at currently (definitely not at my current church). Still, the Lord uses a whole bunch of screw-ups (myself included) to spread the Gospel and further the Kingdom. THAT is a miracle in my books.
I think I’m going to go back and revisit his Song of Solomon series…
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Preaching Illustrated 2009 Swimsuit issue came out last December.
Jan.- Piper in bear fur briefs (gets cold in Minnesota
Feb- Creflo Dollar, T.D. Jakes and Eddie Long in a see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil pose in celebration of Black history month.
March-Scottish born Alastair Begg in a shamefully green Shamrock suit one piece. Close as they could get for Irish born pastor.
April-Paige Patterson in Zebra striped classic Fred Flinstone inspired look. Actually made from Zebra PP killed.
May- Beth Moore in a classy traditional one piece with a wrap. This also is the cover for the outside of the calender. The reason she was chosen for the cover was so Lifeway could put it in their front display and women would feel comfortable buying it.
June- Mark Driscoll in UFC fighter shorts on his side in a octagon cage.
July- Joel Osteen laying on stomach in front of spinning globe smiling up at the camera with his chin propped up with his hands.
Aug- Melissa Scott (wife of late Dr. Gene Scott)in one of her old bathing suits from back in the day.
Sept- John MacArthur and Rick Warren together with Hawaiian inspired shorts and leis around there necks.
Oct- Dever, Mohler, and Mahaney rolling in leaves in honor of Reformation day
Nov- John Hagee in a pilgrim inspired suit with a turkey leg. Yes there are maps in the background.
Dec-Micheal Spencer only in a Santa hat with a Demi Moore Vanity fair pose.
Ok laugh or else.
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..can we talk about Michael Jackson now…..?
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Dovetailing with #8 on your list, how much of the hooplah from SBC and others that get offended by Driscoll reflects a probelm with the offended rather than the offender? If the major issue is that he’s too earthy, I gotta wonder what bible the offended folks are reading.
While the term “vulgar” has come to mean “offensive in language,” its older and more precise meaning is “of or relating to the common people.” I think we could use more preachers that model that kind of vulgarity a la MD.
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This blog is the only reason I have any clue whatsoever who Mark Driscoll is.
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I’ll be honest. My first impression of MD was that he is arrogant. Annoyingly so. I saw some clip. And then tuned him out for some time.
After a while, a friend of mine recommended his preaching podcast to me. She was particularly impressed by his Song of Solomon series. I tuned in to his preaching shortly after that and have been listening ever since. I confess. I judged him harshly and prematurely. While he probably will not ever write the book “Humility and How I Achieved It”, i think it is awesome to see somebody preached gospel centered reformed doctrine for 60 minutes to 20 somethings. If I lived in seattle i would go to his church. I really like that their music selection is not only weighted with classier songs, but not characterized by the plastic fake happy sugar-pop jimbee songs that are driving me Catholic. I think that too many of us evangelicals are so insecure that we are quick to criticize anybody who is more successful than us. I done it. I’ll admit it. “Life is just one beauty pageant after another.” It’s tempting to not really love or feel happy for the winners, whether or not they deserve it.
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Never mind his theology – Freud could have a field day with his take on the Song.
Does anything this man says or does glorify Christ, or does he merely grab attention by appealing to the more vulgar elements of human nature?
According to Driscoll “If you’re thinking dirty, ladies, you can bet he’s happy”. Where is his scriptural foundation? Scripture adjures us toward purity of thought, towards a higher calling than our genitals.
Why is it that everything in this society – including the church – deals with sexuality and orientation.
I’m not a prude by any means (and yes, I do enjoy an active and interesting sex life), but let’s preach the gospel from the pulpit – a lot of people with good sex lives are being condemned to eternal death by our silence on the truly important issues of life!
Driscoll’s teaching should be confined to marital counseling, not preached from the pulpit.
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Please tell me “Preaching Illustrated” doesn’t have a swimsuit edition. ๐
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Good words Michael.
Not to contradict Alvin, but I have heard Driscoll claim to be a four and a half point Calvinist. Six pointers are usually considered to be Double-Predestinationists or Supralapsarian Calvinists, such as Piper or Sproll. Driscoll has by no means affirmed this type of Calvinism from my recollection. But he has dogmatically defended Irresistible Grace and Election numerous times in sermons (the illustration of one of his daughters almost running into rush hour traffic was one of his more known illustrations upon the subject).
Driscoll’s Calvinism is (I believe) something similar to my own, in that he is in reality an Amyraldian (not fully affirming the Limited Atonement point, but holding to a philosophical reckoning of it). Thus Driscoll considers himself in the Calvinist camp, gets offended when people knock it, but has no problem saying God loves all people–I just think he, like many other four and a half pointers do not believe God loves all people the same (some via Common Grace and others through Divine Election).
I’m not trying to start a big Calvinism debate, this is just my two cents as to where I believe Driscoll lands on the TULIP meter.
Cheers.
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I don’t have the foggiest notion of who Mark Driscoll is, but judging from the comments here, it sounds like he is actually doing something. If he were starting a back to bible basic church in my area, I think I would be obliged to help. And I’m as far from a calvinist as you can possibly get.
Regards
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I just want him to tame his tongue. James 3.
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I have seen a few of his sermons. I was very impressed when he did an entire series on Doctrine with titles like: “Trinity” and “Justification”. I would love to see that at my church!
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Driscoll’s answering text messages on sex is a little ridiculous.
However, the guy is interested in real Christianity. His book Vintage Jesus is real doctrine. At least he’s not saying, “the Lord is telling/leading me to…”.
I find him fascinating yet also more orthodox than 90% of the pastor’s that I have known.
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IMonk,
You may have heard this already, but Johnny Hunt at the B21 conference reportedly said that the Mark Driscoll motions would be “thrown under the SBC bus.” And from my vantage point there were more people incensed that they were being made than were in agreement with them.
Also you said above, “If the SBC votes that Driscoll is bad, a few people feel better and Driscollรขโฌโขs stuff sells 5% more than last month.”
Interestingly, I went to the LifeWay table where the Driscoll books were right after the motions were made. I went back an hour later and at least 4 were gone. That’s pretty good given that they were selling them at full price. I think just the mentioning of Driscoll in those motions have driven sales. Maybe someone should check Amazon.com’s bestseller list to see if he’s immediately rising.
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hi michael. this is the most balanced post on mark driscoll i’ve ever read. and i do appreciate the way you evaluated him and emphasizing his evangelistic zeal and honesty about his sin. he is one of the few who i believe lives out the gospel.
re his Calvinism. i once heard him say that he’s a 6-point calvinist. don’t know what he means. and i do think he’s also uncomfortable with the “L” in tulip.
i listened to the Advance audio. great insights. especailly the ministry idolatry. i got a kick of his joke…”young pastors sound weird when they try to sound like john piper…weirder when they dress like him” which is really great. sometimes, we all take ourselves too seriously.
have a blessed day!
alvin
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What if you don’t like Driscoll because of his ridiculous condemnations of other Christians,[Mod edit] and not apologizing about it?
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You likely didn’t intend this post as humor, but it is in some ways. I checked in on the SBC doings via blogs, web cast, twitter. I was a bit embarrassed at the motion against him and happy it was ruled out of order. But the absolute funniest thing I have heard in a long time was the brother who made the motion to have “this Driscoll feller” come next year and speak for himself. Vintage SOUTHERN Baptist. My roots. We all need space. My prayer is God will mature Mark Driscoll into what He wants Driscoll to be. If not, then his gifting will surely carry him into very dangerous waters. Let’s pray for him, thank God for him, and see what God does with one his own.
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MD has described himself as a 4.5 point Calvinist before. His .5 point comes on the L. In the sermon series on Christ on the Cross he discussed Predestination as a part of this series and described his belief in “unlimited limited atonement”. Finally, I think his preaching tone and to an extent content will change a lot when his kids become teenagers and start to really challenge him.
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We need to do more than attempt to defend or criticize our pastors. Accountability is a lot about protecting our leaders. Looking back at recent, actual leadership failures, at some point congregations failed to take part in the spiritual formation of their pastors: consuming rather than edifying. Christian leaders are not magically “anointed”; they are honed, molded, and shaped by the Holy Spirit through the church…or at least that’s the way it is supposed to work. Evangelicals still don’t have a good model for ecclesiology. Applying Mark 10:42-45 seems so difficult.
I think your statement from an earlier post still says it best; he is a “diamond in the rough”. But aren’t we all? We all need discipleship. We all need forgiveness. That process never ends. My prayer is that he doesn’t become another in a long line of throw-away pulpit idols. His best days of ministry are yet to come. I hope that is true for all of us (Philippians 3:13).
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Bob:
You should look into the Gospel. It’s good news for sinners. Of course, if your Gospel is the ultimate law verse- be perfect as God is perfect- you REALLY might want to look into the Gospel.
ms
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The first sermon in the Trial series from 1 Peter was all about election and foreknowledge. The sermon on Marriage and Men where he says, “Who the hell do you think you are!?!” has become one of my favorite sermons. I found his outrage both refreshing and challenging. Refreshing because few pastors express emotion appropriately. I used to like pastors that would yell a lot and when I went to this recent convention I realized that’s just the norm for preaching in the South. Southern pastors won’t stop yelling and exposing every vein in every inch of skin they’re showing while preachers anywhere else don’t seem to ever yell (that’s my experience anyway). It was challenging because Pastor Mark really does care about how men treat women and it challenges me to be the best man I can be. I and I think many men need wake up calls like this a lot more often than we get them from the pulpit.
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iMonk – I’ve heard Driscoll say (live at an Anglican event in Australia) something to the effect that he holds to “both” unlimited and limited atonement, humorously adding “I like to keep all the verses” when he was questioned about it. So if you’re talking TULIP, you are definitely correct that he’s not a “classical” Calvinist on the L part.
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I guess I need a new concordance. I’ve been looking for the verse “Be ye imperfectly holy, for I am imperfectly holy” and I can’t seem to find it in mine….
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I think Driscoll’s tone and message are lost in translation sometimes. We need to consider the audience he is preaching to. Driscoll’s bread and butter is preaching to the common man, specifically the unchurched people in Seattle, Washington. It is obvious from his success that the same comments Driscoll makes that offend the more “spiritually mature” among us do a wonderful job of reaching his target audience.
Clark
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Okay, Michael. I apologise. If you want to purge the comment, do so.
I will try to find a better balance of expression.
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1. My cards on the table: there are a lot of things I like about this man’s ministry and some I don’t. The sermon in Scotland was not his finest moment. I’m concerned about authoritarianism in his ministry, and how he views women’s roles in the body. I rejoice that he preaches the gospel and hope he continues to do so and doesn’t follow his megachurch friends into the sea of pragmatism, because if that happens it will be a great loss for all of us.
2. We all have our flaws, and, yes, ‘we all’ includes our favorite pastors, dead and alive.
3. Driscoll is going to have a hard time shaking this rep.
4. If he’s making the joke for humor’s sake, it’s definitely not helpful. But to tell the story as an example of the mindset he has to deal with is helpful, and if it makes you laugh, so be it. Most Christians don’t seem to even want to honestly talk about masturbation.
5. Driscoll should do a lot of things, but resign and disappear into the shadows isn’t one of them.
6. Amen.
8. We’re all messed up, and there are days when I think we’re all (including myself) so dark and evil God should do away with the whole lot of us, much less not use us as examples to others.
9. Banning his books must be about “protecting the family” from his “evil” ways, such as his cussing. Or his Calvinism.
10. Even when we know better, many of us Christians still love to dump those we hate in the trash. And we never separate the man from the idea: if he has a bad idea, then he is a bad person – if not the very devil himself.
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Discussing Driscoll is not being “enamored” with him. He’s the topic of the post, not the thousands of anonymous pastors. None of them were given their own motions at the SBC.
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I’m reading the meta here and I’m gonna go have to lie down.
Now all we need is Dave Armstrong to remove me from the Anti-Calvinist hall of shame, and I might as well be eating babies. 5 years of blogging down the tubes in one day.
I fear you, iMonk. Truly, your kung fu is greater.
FWIW, I have had an epiphany about MD that I think will enrage everyone except maybe Phil and Dan at TeamPyro: the so-called “flaws” in things like his arrangement of the furniture around election and limited atonement aren’t because he doesn’t believe them: it’s because he’s a popularizer, and you can popularize something like that because it is actually offensive to the world that God is not just going to forgive the whole thing and let everyone in.
The other reason, as I see it, is that MD sees himself as superior to other intellectually. He feels like he is charismatic enough that he can talk down to people so that they won’t care, and he’s smart enough to say something they will accept without saying what he means. I have some off-line info about that which I can’t really share, but suffice it to say that I have witnessed it first-hand, and that was the moment he lost be as an erstwhile supporter.
So the question comes down to whether or not all of this needs to be heard out in a piublic court of appeals — and when iMonk has a free minute, we’ll kick that off.
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Also, if you think some of Driscoll’s recent preaching has been “nutty” and “unimpressive,” why should we hold him out as a model for others to follow?
Why not celebrate some of the thousands of relatively anonymous pastors in the land who consistently preach the Gospel in an orthodox way? Why are we so enamored with this guy? Because of his numbers or his propensity to attract attention to himself?
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I think it is okay to suspend judgment on Pastor Driscoll.
I know that some people are tempted to drop Driscoll in the “emergent” bucket or the “megachurch” category and be done with him. Yet, he is really a unique individual, and the critiques that we apply to those movements don’t fit well on the theologically sophisticated Driscoll.
I believe that his unorthodox style probably reaches some people with the gospel that would not be reached otherwise. Still, I think his hypermasculinity is as phoney and off-putting and counterproductive to the gospel as the femininity of the church that he is criticizing. In his attempt to avoid being girlish, he has fallen off the other side of the horse into the ditch of he-man masculinity. Why not just be yourself?
What I fear is that many evangelicals will slavishly ape Driscoll’s style because they think its effective. Ear-splitting music, crude language, slobbish style will become an even bigger problem than they are now in the church. Driscoll’s imitators are a much bigger problem than Driscoll.
Finally, if Driscoll has reached anyone, it is not because of his personality, but because of the Gospel that he preaches. Anyone who thinks they need to look, talk and dress like Driscoll to reach the lost is showing that they have too little confidence in the Word of God to work change in the lives of its hearers.
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Driscoll is like the bizarro Rob Bell…
That’s both good and bad…
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I think Driscoll’s Calvinistic cred is highly suspect. He has a very odd way of talking about the atonement that is pretty much running from the L. I have never heard him mention election. On Easter he did an invitation and baptized hundreds of people on the spot. I think if his Calvinism were fisked, he’d be in trouble with the TRs.
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iMonk,
I have no issues with Driscoll; if only we could purge him of his Calvinism.
๐
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I went to Seattle Pacific University, just down the street from Mars Hill. A large number of my friends went there, and I went a couple of times. I didn’t like the place, myself, though I did apreciate that you could choose between wine and grape juice for communion. I also didn’t like the way he treated the university when they wouldn’t let him have a Bible study there without a faculty/staff advisor (like everyone else has to have). So, I’m not a fan of the man myself, but I’m not going to condemn him. He’s done a lot of good work and gotten a lot of people excited about being Christians. Mars Hill was a good neigbor to the Fremont/Ballard area while I was around.
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Thanks Sarah
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Hi JMulkey-
No worries about arguments, it’s a fair question. As a universalist, I believe that God’s salvation extends to every living creature regardless of their actions or beliefs, and ultimately hold that all will be redeemed and returned to God in the fullness of time. I would say that’s the biggest point of difference (and I’m not targeting Mark Driscoll as a person I particularly disagree with- obviously, the vast majority of American (maybe even world?) Christianity does not hold a universalist view, not to mention Islam, etc notions on the matter- I just was pointing out that I am, by virtue of being in a state of disagreement about a core issue with the man, in a position where it would be natural for me to take issue to his preaching).
I also take issue with his ministry around gender and sexual orientation, or such that I’ve heard, read. I’m not, theologically, a complementarian, and I believe that God blesses any bit of love which humans show to each other, including love between two people of the same gender. In these areas, we disagree strongly.
Does that answer your questions?
Peace
Sarah O
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Sarah O: very well said; loved that post.
Greg R
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Cindy
A lot of people do have preacher heroes. I don’t think that statement was aimed at any individual in particular. However, many Christians do make heroes of their ministers, for good or bad.
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MOD EDIT: Sue- when we are discussing a topic we don’t ridicule one another for discussing the topic. Your comment is a no go.
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Driscoll is 39 years old, has a B.A. from WSU (where he went on a Fulbright Scholarship). He has a Masters from Western. He’s been married for what — 15 years or so. He and his wife have 5 kids. Why should the next five years produce more maturity?
I disagree with him on gender issues, but in my opinion, that’s not a primary issue. I disagree with my own pastor (whom I love like a father) on gender issues, too.
I think the church needs frank talk on sex, but there’s a difference between frank talk and vulgarity.
I’m struggling not to feel condescended to, here. I have no preacher heroes. Exactly none.
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Sarah O, which items of theology do you disagree with from Driscoll? Just wondereing and not trying to start a argument.
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A word about Mr. Driscoll-
As a Unitarian Universalist, I’m not too inclined towards agreement on the theology espoused at Mars Hill Church, and from a personal taste perspective, I’m often uncomfortable with the style of Mr. Driscoll’s presentations. However, as a Seattleite, I have to say that the people I’ve met whose lives seem to have deepened and transformed by being touched by Mars Hill Church has really impressed me, and moderated what is an easily unpleasant opinion for me to have of it’s leading pastor.
Mr. Driscoll (I believe?) started ministry pretty young. In fact, I think we are roughly the same age- early 30s? If that’s true, I think about just the general and unavoidable sea changes that all the people around me and myself go through while transitioning to adult hood, and while it doesn’t make me all that thrilled with some of what I hear about his preaching, it does help humble me from getting too on my high horse about it. Whether his theology is right or wrong, ultimately he is just a guy and struggling with all the things everyone struggles with, including being a goober- unlike me, who gets to do this mostly anonymously, Mr. Driscoll has a legion of admirers and haters who are watching, making his maturation a very public thing indeed.
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Yah, the stay at home dad thing was an impromptu remark answering a live question. He should have worded it better, and expressed some better compassion..
I think Driscoll holds up a good ideal, and he is preaching predominantly to an audience that is still in a place where they can easily aspire to that ideal. The problem is that he needs to acknowledge that many folks are 10 or 20 years down the wrong path, and there needs to be some grace for that. I suspect that there is, if you where to ask the folks at Mars Hill..
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Bob: Driscoll’s stay at home dad line was his dumbest statement imo. I don’t believe it is church policy. It’s just Driscoll trying to say “support your family” but coming out with a line for the stupid hall of fame.
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Ed,
I don’t disagree entirely… But leaders are supposed to be the best of us. It’s part of the qualifications for being an elder (as in Titus 1:5-9).
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I think Frank Turk is a peach of a human being- a regular ol’ teddy bear- and I’m not afraid to say so! ๐
On Driscoll- so much to respect and so much to be wary of. And the problem is, most of the things the SBC/other critics talk about are red herrings.
The real danger of Driscoll is not langauge or crassness. The guy will grow out of that. It is raising complementarianism to the level of the Gospel. He’ll often make lists of vital theological, “Gospel” questions like atonement, universalism, male leadership… Huh? To quote Sesame Street, “One of these things is not like the other…”
I’m fine with a generation of young preachers working through the question of where the line is when it comes to crassness. They’ll work it out pretty quick as they speak to real audiences that push back and as they figure out there’s no WAY they can get away with what Driscoll does.
However- a generation of young pastors who see stay-at-home dads as a church discipline issue? Who think “Male Headship” is somehow theologically equivalent to Substitutionary Atonement?
Truly disturbing…
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This has been a fascinating thread. As a pretty “Hard shell Baptist” myself, many times I have gone to MD’s website to hear his latest alleged heresy…Alas, every time “I find no fault with this man.”
More power to him and his ministry.
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As long as we expect our spiritual leaders to be somehow better than us and represent (at least on the surface) some kind of idealized lifestyle, we’ll never be completely comfortable with MD’s “ready-fire-aim” approach or his honesty about his own faults.
I for one find him to be honest, earnest, refreshing and real.
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Sallie,
98% of Driscoll’s stuff is absolutely non-controversial straight up bible teaching. You could watch it with your kids.. I frequently do.
Most of the controversial stuff lately has come not from the Q&A where his congregants ask questions..
It should be noted that he ranted about the nature of the sexual questions, and admonished his congregation for being so selfish. (they where always asking how far away from Jesus they could go without crossing the line instead of how close they could be to him) That youtube video never gets highlighted.. You can find it on my blog if you care to..
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Martha: Your “gay love poetry” reference is as inappropriate as Driscoll. Please find the rhetorical brake pedal. I don’t like having to moderate you.
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Okay, I’ve cribbed about the man, now let me say something nice about him.
So I went to the Mars Hill website and I like what he says about the Gethsemane Prayer. I’m old-fashioned enough I prefer to read the text than watch the video, so I’m probably not getting the full effect of his presentation, but on the other hand, that also means that I’m not being swayed by great surface but shallow meaning.
This is good, sound, solid teaching. This is, I presume, what he is like under all the kerfuffle about sex’n’swearing.
Plus, he was (at least) baptised Catholic so he’s one of ours (or was, until his family left and he made a choice for himself), so I have to be nice to a brother! ๐
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Martha:
As much as I am embarassed by Driscoll’s treatment of Song of Solomon as a marriage manual, the idea that this book is an inspired allegory of Christ and the church is worse. And I say that with plenty of Puritans, etc on your team.
It’s love poetry. Nothing more. Get over it people.
ms
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Michael, whatever about original intent in the Song of Songs, it’s not (on our view of it) a case of “either/or”, but “both/and”.
Like the “Ascent of Mount Carmel”, written by St. John of the Cross, dealing with the union of the Soul with God through the purgative way of the Dark Night of the Soul, and couched as a love-poem, amongst which are the following stanzas:
“6. Upon my flowery breast,
Kept wholly for himself alone,
There he stayed sleeping, and I caressed him,
And the fanning of the cedars made a breeze.
7. The breeze blew from the turret
As I parted his locks;
With his gentle hand he wounded my neck
And caused all my senses to be suspended.
8. I remained, lost in oblivion;
My face I reclined on the Beloved.
All ceased and I abandoned myself,
Leaving my cares forgotten among the lilies.”
Mark Driscoll was saying, on the reading of the Song of Songs as an allegory of the Bridegroom (Jesus) and the Bride (the Church, but also the Soul): “Jesus has His hand up my shirt? That’s so gay!” Er, yeah, Mark. That’s it. Guy talking about embracing another guy. Gay love poetry, that’s why it’s been kept in the canon all these years.
Or maybe there’s more to it as well as celebrating the goodness of the body and the material creation? ๐
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Well written, sir.
Let’s pray for the dude, learn from his successes and failures, and get on with the Great Commission!
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Martha: It’s clear to me that whatever version of this you’ve heard on the Catholic side, you’re far more interested in using it to slam a popular evangelical than in interacting with your own tradition’s hang-ups on sex. Since we aren’t going to discuss what you get in marriage when you proclaim that Mary and Joseph never had sexual intercourse, we aren’t going to discuss the caricatured rehashing of what Driscoll said at his worst moments.
Driscoll is leading a movement that will plant tens of thousands of churches. It doesn’t offset his failures, but it provides evangelical context for him.
ms
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iMonk — actually he is under much less stress than he used to be. A year or two ago he basically had a breakdown and realized that he needed to restructure some things. He does much less at Mars Hill now than he once did so he can focus on teaching, writing, speaking, and his family. I think the screaming fit was completely controlled and calculated regarding an issue that is clearly a hot button for him.
[MOD edit: We aren’t going to be responding to that topic raised by Martha.]
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Though on the other hand, although “Who the hell do you think you are?” is not the kind of language we’d expect from a preacher, it’s not really swearing (by Catholic? anyway, certainly not by Irish standards) so I’m not so concerned about that aspect.
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Well, Michael,
[MOD EDIT: We;’ve established the factual nature of the sexually explicit things Driscoll said- or anyone can listen to them- but I’m not going down this road. It’s unfair and unnecessary.]
Though I would love to see him telling women like my mother that she *had* to do (any particular thing, especially one relating to the conjugal act) in her marital life; all that would be left of him would be a smoking pile of charred ashes.
And no, I don’t imagine he spends all his time giving advice to the love-lorn, but you know as well as I do, that’s the bit that will get all the publicity. Ah, well: somehow I imagine he’ll change his tune when he’s older – [MOD edit]
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Sallie: I can’t access regular email where I am, but will in a couple of hours. Thank you.
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Jason: Appropriate or not, it’s a signal that MD often is under way too much stress, and the structure and elders of Mars Hill need to get a clue about that. If I ever blow up like, I’m angry, tired and probably depressed. The brakes aren’t working. The subject, of course, was the years he has put into dealing with some abusive men and I understand why it hit a very explosive spot for him.
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I’m SOOO glad you wrote this. Thanks.
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I care about Driscoll because God tells us to. I can honestly say I don’t know enough about him yet. I’m a little scared that, from what I’ve heard and read so far, I feel like I have to kick all of my kids out of the house before I can listen to his sermons, though.
BTW, thought it was cute that you used “your little Driscoll fanboy” and “your bad choice of a person to work at your church” in the same point. Sounds like you are saying Driscoll fans are bad choices for ministry… LOL… I’m just KIDDING!!!
I sent you an email about your earlier post on help with the blog. Hope you got it!!
Have a great day!
Sallie
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iMonk — thanks for pointing that out. What I’m trying to figure out is the timeline. Where do we freeze the culture in time and say, “that’s appropriate,” and then declare anything beyond that inappropriate. Who gets to make that decision?
For the record, though I’m a fanboy I still thought his scream of who in the hell do you think you are? was unnecessary. I thought that when I first heard the message and I still think so every time I consider it.
If only he were perfect like John MacArthur…
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teampyro is miles from being a watchblog
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Hmm…
So, in your book… Are we allowed to link to TeamPyro? ๐
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I wish I could remember who this was supposed to be about, but the aging brain can’t do it ๐
Years and years ago, I read an anecdote about a famous 18th century saint who preached a sermon that had the fashionable congregation riveted: he expatiated on the tiny piece of flesh that ruled man, that caused so much sin and scandal, that expressed the passions and appetites, in a way that had the packed church both scandalised and titillated.
The highlight of the sermon came when he said “Shall I name you that organ?” Sensation! Incredulity!
Then he said “Shall I show you that organ?” Swooning! Consternation! Sensitive souls walking out!
Then he stuck out his – tongue ๐
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Martha:
I don’t know if your knowledge of MD goes beyond Youtube clips, but I seriously doubt it. Driscoll preaches the Gospel and through books exegetically. The caricature of his views on gender doesn’t really help us understand the right or the wrong.
Evangelical views on sex in marriage may have some flaws, but turning all men into practical rapists isn’t one of them.
And your version of the Song of Solomon is not the original author’s intent. Solomon wrote that about Yahweh and Israel? Uh…right.
It’s the Catholic Church’s way of getting around the sexual content. It plainly says what it says. The question is about canon, not about original intent.
ALL: This conversation needs to proceed with a bit of honesty about how much Driscoll you’ve heard or read. And please don’t link watchbloggers.
ms
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I’m glad you’re sticking up for Driscoll and telling us that he’s not as black as he’s painted; I was never so glad to be single and Catholic as when I read the advice he (allegedly) dished out to guys about Christians and sex – yes, Mark, way to impress women when their husband whines “But honey, it doesn’t matter if you don’t like doing this! The Bible says you’re not a good wife if you don’t!” Never mind the “Oooh, ‘Song of Solomon’ as an allegory of the relation between Jesus and the soul? Gay vibes!” silliness. Er, Mark, you do realise that it was written by a MAN and that the bits you were quoting are a MAN (using the persona of a woman) talking about another MAN embracing and kissing? Honestly, I wanted to bundle together “The Ascent of Mount Carmel” and “The Theology of the Body” and whap him over the head with them ๐
However, if he gets over the “Hey, us modern guys aren’t one bit hung up about sex, heh heh heh” and, as you say, he does indeed truly preach the Good News of salvation from sin, I can get over my maiden aunt desire to say “Stop that right now, young man!” (Yes, I actually am a maiden aunt) ๐
Honestly, I wanted
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Jason: One of the most common words used by Spurgeon’s critics about his language was “racy.” Spurgeon of course never used any form of profanity, but his language was called too common.
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The Wittenburg Door wrote the best piece on Driscoll I’ve ever seen at http://www.wittenburgdoor.com/driscoll-kicks-own-ass
Note: you should ALWAYS consult the Wittenburg Door before making deep spiritual judgements.
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Dave,
Oh, I’ve heard of him. The point is he doesn’t matter to me. He is not the center of my ministry. Platt isn’t either, but from what I know of the two, Platt deserves more attention. I’m glad you have regard for Driscoll. But that doesn’t make him relevant either.
I guess, to each his own.
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I think most of the fuss over Driscoll is about 1 Cor 7:5, and his tendency to call us to repentance on that.
I suspect that most of us do need to repent there, but because nobody else dares to preach that verse it is easier to label Driscoll as a radical than to consider the scripture.
I really enjoyed the radio interview he did some time ago. He admitted that sometimes he had gone too far. But then he pointed out that it is also a sin not to go far enough.
He went too far in Scotland when he preached SoS… But his other lecture there on the 11 aspects of the atonement was one of the best sermons I have ever heard.
As far as the abusive tone goes. Most of us deserve to be yelled at sometimes. I know a lot of men from his church, and they seem enjoy learning from a guy who doesn’t use kid gloves around the issues that are destroying their lives.
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Imonk,
I would like to know what the 25 things are that Driscoll gets right in your opinion.
I don’t follow Driscoll much and don’t have that much of an opinion about him. Except that I generally don’t care for his style of church, that is big and contemporary. But it wouldn’t be anything against him personally. I wouldn’t get on a man for using profane language either, as long as he does so with proper syntax. But just to see where the evangelical or post evangelical world is, could you list a few of those things he gets right?
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Regarding point #5 on whether Driscoll should apologize for his poor example, I don’t think there’s a need for a debate, because he’s already done it. His sermon on humility (which I found to be outstanding) addresses this: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/rebels-guide-to-joy/the-rebels-guide-to-joy-in-humility
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Scott,
Because you’ve not heard of Pastor Driscoll a “fad preacher” makes him not. He’s young, but he’s been at this preaching thing for quite a few years already. He heads one of the most remarkable, back-to-basics, churches I’ve ever been to which happens to reside in one of the most remarkable religion-free areas in the entire U.S.
He’s the real deal, not a “fad preacher”.
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I guess I could be called a Driscoll fanboy. I listen to all of his sermons and find myself defending him on some of the conservative blogs I frequent. What I keep asking for and not getting is the list of words in Scripture that violate Ephesians 4:29 and Ephesians 5:4. Many folks think that his style is so obviously over-the-top that it doesn’t even warrant discussion. Granted, he is not for the old ladies at the First Baptist Church. However, that’s not his audience either.
What I find particularly fascinating is that his detractors sure sound a lot like Spurgeon’s back in his day. And most of his detractors with whom I interact are unashamed Spurgeon fanboys.
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The reproach of most of ‘church’ today is not that it is categorically false, but boring and irrelevant. Love him or hate him, you can’t pin that on Mark Driscoll.
The fact that he is willingly and purposefully being mentored speaks loudly , to me, about where he’s at as a pastor and a man.
Greg R
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I think that the sex series is only one aspect of a multitude of problems with Driscoll. I hope you are right that he will improve a bit down the line but I have some reservations.
1. He claimed the pastors wives let themselves go and need to look better. He has a video of his wife chasing her kids around on the street dressed in high heels and leather pants. Not only is this impractical and obviously staged but, look at Driscoll himself. He’s appears overweight and wears a Mickey Mouse t shirt. He should point his finger to pastors who “let themselves go” as well.
2. His autocratic church structure led to his firing of some pastors on his staff without due warning. He also made statements just prior to their firing about “punching them in the nose.” He routinely says these sorts of things, coming across as a guy who was bullied as a little boy and now gets to bully back.
3. His cutesy sex talks are leading to expectations in college crowds of a good, juicy lesson. His use of twitter and his answering of questions seem a bit staged.
4.I liked him on ABC during the debate on Satan.
I am concerned that Driscoll, gifted communicator notwithstanding, has some underlying issues that could one day surface and further hurt the cause for Christ. I sincerely hope that I am wrong.
Please visit our blog. A few weeks back we did a series on Driscoll that lasted a week. We have links to you tube, etc. to make our case.
Finally, in case you think that I am some sort of reactionary Christian, I was a public health nurse for many years. I was disabused of any modesty in speech by the end of the first week. I am quite comfortable discussing said topics. I just think there is enough evidence to be a bit concerned about this guy. Once again, I hope I am wrong.
http://www.thewartburgwtach.com mash the blog button at the top of the page.
Blessings
Dee
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Maybe I’m in a very small minority, but none of the things you mentioned bother me (well except his version of complementarianism), what concerns me is the over use of fear and intimidation. I recall one person say that Mark Discoll can make most any man wet himself when he’s fired up and angry. To me this would border on spiritual abuse. I know that there are plenty of old fasioned conservative preachers who do this as well, and I wouldn’t darken the door of their churches either. As a person who grew up in an abusive home, I could not sit under him, nor would I subject anyone I care about to his preaching, or the Jonathan Edwards like version of an angry God he portrays.
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You’ve just ruined me among my peeps. Next thing you know Bob Hyatt is going to start saying nice things about me and I’m going to have to sign a list of affirmations and denials or be burned at the stake.
BTW, We can start the firefall on Pastor Driscoll’s foibles at your convenience.
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Mark who?
I’ve too much to do with my own church to be worried about the latest fad preacher. So, I really don’t understand the uproar, either for or against, this man. Very few folks warrant this kind of attention. He is not one of the few.
But I did hear a young man at the SBC that could warrant further scrutiny — David Platt. He is the real deal.
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Does the SBC really want to go here? Do they really want to start criticizing every little thing a preacher does? There is plenty of “dirt” on plenty of SBC pastors. Nothing that would disqualify them from the ministry, but enough that it would upset or disillusion the same people who are upset with Driscoll. These pastors just hide their dirt while Driscoll is honest about his.
I’m not a Driscoll fanboy. I find him helpful at times and frustrating at others. He makes me laugh and makes me cringe. So what. Many of the saints in Scripture make me do the same. Come on, people! What about the gospel don’t you understand?
I appreciate Driscoll’s honesty and candor. We talk about being “authentic Christians,” but when people finally see one it pisses them off. When we finally see a messy life that has been redeemed by the cross of Christ we go nuts. When we see that sancification is acutally a process we can’t handle it. Good grief! No wonder so many people stay away from us out of fear that they might be condemned if we really knew the real them.
Honestly, this stuff wears me out. Let’s get our eyes off ourselves and onto Jesus.
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I considered the exegesis of Song of Solomon in that series to be an unmitigated disaster, while most of the application was simply hung onto the text to suit Pastor Mark.
https://internetmonk.com/archive/whats-a-conservative-reading-of-song-of-solomon
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I am curious about which sermon series is being referenced to as well. I was turned onto Driscoll through the “Peasant Princess” series. So I am curious.
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I think we should harp more on his mistakes. That way we will overshadow the fact that he is effectively helping reach numerous people in a traditionally non-Christian area, and is helping set up effective Christian networks.
Why would we want to acknowledge that positive stuff?
Maybe because he is not doing it in a “traditional” way (ie. “my way”).
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By ‘a sermon series that I believe was an unmitigated disaster’ I take it you mean ‘The Peasant Princess’ series… or was there another you had in mind.
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some room to be a goober…
that is where i stopped in reading.
it says it all.
we could all stand to give people a little more room to be a goober.
come on over to my blog and visit sometime ๐
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Driscoll has made a few bad decisions. Who hasn’t? But you cannot fault the man’s zeal and committment. Peter made a few bad choices, he turned out ok. So will Driscoll as long as he keeps Christ first and formost in his life and ministry.
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