Southeastern Theological Seminary President Danny Akin on Mark Driscoll:
I appreciate Mark Driscoll and Acts 29. Southeastern has no formal relationship with either, but I am thankful for many aspects of both ministries. I think there is much that our students can learn from them. Mark and I have become good friends, but I do not agree with everything Mark says or does. In particular, I disagree with some of the language he has used in the pulpit in the past (though not in several years!) and I am uncomfortable with his position on beverage alcohol. I do appreciate his courage to tackle the difficult book The Song of Solomon and to address sexual issues with the adults in his congregation who have serious and important questions needing answers. Many of you know I have had a similar ministry through Marriage and Family conferences for years. I also wrote a book on the Song entitled God on Sex. Now it is the case I have chosen to address these issues in a different manner than has Mark, and at certain points I think he might have addressed some sensitive sexual issues in a more careful manner. But, I believe we can learn from those with whom we differ, and on the whole I believe Mark has much to teach us about missional living, theology-driven ministry, and culturally relevant expositional preaching. I also think our students, and Southern Baptists in general, are mature enough to treat Mark Driscoll (and every Christian leader) with appropriate discernment.
I want to remind our readers that good seminaries continually expose their students to diverse opinions, including the opinions of those with whom we disagree. There are few textbooks, guest lecturers, and even chapel speakers with whom I am in 100% agreement! Several times in the last decade the SBC annual meeting has been addressed by speakers who differ with Southern Baptists, including Condoleeza Rice (a Presbyterian who describes her views on abortion as “mildly pro-choiceâ€), James Dobson (a Nazarene who is egalitarian and consistently Arminian) and Bill Bright (another Presbyterian). Individual Southern Baptists also learn from others every time they read a book by Augustine, C. S. Lewis or John Stott and every time they listen to a sermon by John MacArthur or Chuck Swindoll. It is a healthy thing to interact with and appreciate fellow Christians with whom we have theological differences and even strong disagreements on secondary and tertiary matters.
Let me invite any of our readers who have concerns about Mark or Acts 29 to do three things. First, make sure your criticisms are up-to-date rather than rehashing issues that were settled several years ago. Second, acquaint yourself with the doctrinal convictions of both Mars Hill Church and Acts 29. Finally, please note that all of the Driscoll addresses are available online at our website. I would encourage you to listen to them as well as an interview David Nelson conducted with Mark last spring. I think you will be blessed and encouraged by what you hear. If you have any other questions, please don’t hesitate to email me or call my office. I would be happy to talk with you, listen to your heart, and hopefully put your concerns to rest.
The relevance to the debate between Frank Turk and myself is rather obvious. As in all things here at IM, think for yourself and come to your own conclusions.
I’m with Akin.
If Akin’s approval of Driscoll means he should resign as well, then you’ll have to find another blogger to defend that one. I’ve got a book about Jesus to research/write.
The Internet Monk Archives 
I see where you’re coming from, but aren’t there essentially two separate dialogs we conduct? One for the lost, a come-as-you-are inclusiveness, and one for the saved, which is never really satisfied with less than our best for the Master? I mean, we naturally can’t expect the lost to clean up first, that is the work of the Spirit, but when we focus on church life, and pleasing Christ is the focus, there is an internal motivation–not a legalistic outside “code” to adhere to–to respond to grace with a sincere & humble attempt to live holier? Is it truth in advertising to say to a lost world, “Become a Christian and let it all hang out because of grace!”
I see Pastors caught in affairs I wish had focused more on Christ, and on preserving the reputation of their church as well. I think by our actions we may not be “preserving” her so much as building up or tearing down her witness in the community.
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Scott: The Gospel is not about living up to a higher standard. Christianity isn’t Islam, and we aren’t preserving “her.” Christianity is Christ. The Gospel is grace and there is no dress code.
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I pastor a church some would say is a classic old-fashioned 1950’s dinosaur. We wear ties and suits, use the King James only, have only male, undivorced deacons. We sing hymns and taped country-gospel and have three services a week, and even still have Discip;leship Training and RA’s. Yet we do use a projector for announcements and have black folks as members. Our bus picks up kids from all over, all kinds, and we have a real love for stage plays and mission projects.
When I think about the goals of the Great Commission Resurgence I get excited about our mission dollars starting new churches. It made me mad when the NCWMU split from the BSCNC, and I never want my members to know details about compensation packages and company cars that came out of money they thought was saving kids in Africa. Money that goes into the plate comes out of the pockets of widows and shut-ins, not out of some general fund in outer space, and if the GCR means more church starts and souls saved, I’m for it.
I guess what concerns me about the new direction is identity. I really don’t mind cowboy churches and people at the beach wearing Hawiian shirts to worship; I don’t see it and it isn’t contrary to scripture as far as I can tell, but when I stood up to preach the 10 points of the GCR, I got stuck on the part where I was going to tell my people that they were wrong, that wearing our best to worship was antiquated.
Now, don’t get me wrong, fifteen years ago, when I was a young and passionate zealot, I would have gone white with rage and yelled “TRADITION!” and gone into a rant about how fundamentalist churches exclude lost people by embarassing them with an elitist dress code, but things have changed. I’m not just referring to my waistline or hairline, but to the culture and the convention as a whole. In a lot of churches I have seen two responses to the modern world: unreasoning lock-down or desperate accomodation. I’ve been part of both and have come to realize that what has been asked of traditional churches is a complex question: Can we be missional and not lose the distinctive conclusions we’ve come to when we read scripture?
What I’m saying is there is a danger in losing something precious when we say to the culture: “You don’t have to change anything, we love your unique distinctiveness,” but say to traditionalists that they must meld into the melting pot and discard the things that bring meaning and substance and expression to their unique cultural tradition. Many critics point out that fundamentalists confuse biblical identity with cultural identity. For years reformers have looked at the monolithic old church as a cash cow to be corrected, inherently wrong in all her assertions. Like teenagers who insist “The Man” is the source of all evil, we may be in danger of underestimating the value of the staid conservative practice simply in favor of that which is novel for novelty’s sake.
For example, it’s OK for Muslims to go ballistic when offended in any way, but good old Christianity will understand if we kick her in any way and tell her to quit singing hymns and being so embarassingly backward. Honestly, doesn’t the society we live in need a higher standard to live up to rather than an accomodation to blend into?
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Thanks for posting Dr. Akin’s response, my respect for this man continues to grow.
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imonk,
Your whole comment beginning with “Driscoll is Gospel without the fundamentalism” is so on target it’s not even funny.
Check related blogpost on Talitha, Koum! and Et Elle.
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The term “cussing pastor” that Driscoll got may possibly derive from a sermon about eight years ago (or nine?) in which he said that, as best I can remember the statement, if anyone insists on telling you that there is salvation apart from Christ they’re selling a G**-****** lie.
I’ve heard about ten years worth of Driscoll’s preaching and that is literally the only statement he has ever made that I could clearly identify as cussing. In terms of its theological accuracy I am not sure any Christian could, strictly speaking, disagree with it. I haven’t read Miller’s book but it sounds as though he may not have provided the context for that “cussing” statement.
I’m pretty sure that “if” that was what Miller heard that Driscoll wouldn’t have realized that might inspire him to be labeled “the cussing pastor”. still, since it seems that label sticks and people haven’t managed to verify anything I thought I’d mention that the “cussing” in question had to have happened at least eight years ago and provide the context for it.
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I was on a Pastoral Search Committee and a Pastor we were considering and ended up making a call to was giving a a pre-sermon at our Church. He was different and unique and was passionate about doing right for God.
To make a point that he was different he actually said during his warm-up part of the sermon that some people dont like it when you san “Crap!” from the pulpit. He was basically saying if you give me call make sure you know what your calling– a very intentional ply of his to make sure as a Church we knew what we were getting.
He has never used a bad word on the pulpit (although I dont consider crap a bad word myself). The pastor is a pastors kid and traditionalist with a cultural twist. He is passionate on accomplishing what God wants him to accomplish.
When we voted for him one guy stepped up and said he would not vote for a guy that used a word that he would not allow his kids to use. We voted him in anyways.
We had a Church split a year later…. but being on the Pastoral search committee was the best thing I ever did for my community.
http://www.savagepacer.com/news/church-news/lifeprint-church-looks-merge-two-worlds-9880
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” But I think Dr. Akin is choosing to minimize his differences with MD for a specific SBC reasson: putting to death the landmarkist legalism inside the convention”
Hmmmmmm. Maybe. Where is Mohler’s rebuke of Driscoll and call for repentance? Akin is simply playing both sides and covering his bases.
The truth is that seminary presidents are faced with a problem. Many of their students ADORE Driscoll. They have to be very careful.
Actually, many at the SBC convention had no idea who the Driscoll character is mentioned during teh motion. You should have seen the confusion on the faces of the masses when his name was mentioned in the motion. I had about 40 people in my section alone ask me to write down his name so they could look him up.
Akin, Mohler and others are walking a fine line here. When more of the masses wake up to Driscoll’s vulgarity and bizarre patriarchy, they are going to have some ‘xplainin’ to do which is why you see this weak response from Akin. He can point back to this and say, see? I was concerned but he repented. It has worked for Piper.
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This is a pretty great example of why Christianity has never spread across the world.
From the very beginning until now, we never fail to spend 100X the energy on arguing amongst ourselves about each other than we do on the great commission.
If God wrote the Bible, it being His Word and all, why didn’t He make it clearer? Why did He write it so that two scholars can study their entire lives and still come up with diametrically opposing views?
Why did he write it so that Christians would spend more time composing lawyerly briefs to each other than on anything remotely related to the teachings of Jesus?
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Dr Akin sounds like my kind of Christian leader!
When criticising other leaders we need to be aware that we are not Jesus, we are never, ever, ever, ever 100% right (as I believe the mighty Tom Wright says – at least some of what I say is wrong, I just don’t know what part!).
The church seems to so often swing between two extremes, either
(a) beating people with a sledgehammer when actually only a quiet word is enough (e.g. Driscoll); or –
(b) Ignoring blatantly destructive behaviour and/or teachings (e.g. Osteen, Bentley, etc)
We need to get somewhere closer to the middle ground I think, though not sure how that works out…
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Dr. Akin continues to impress me.
As for Mark Driscoll’s “curse” at the end of “Marriage and Men,” I would say something much worse to anyone I caught intimidating/threatening a female friend of mine.
I must admit, I’m not as up on Dr. MacArthur as I am many of the other major players in evangelicalism, but he seems to become more and more of an ivory tower guy every time I read something of his.
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Frank Turk wrote:
Mark Driscoll doesn’t owe me anything..
This was very helpful, to me. There’s a big difference between, “in my opinion, MD should resign…” and “MD owes me a resignation, if he does not repent”. I appreciate the clarification, this helps me put Frank’s take in a better context.
Greg R
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Peaches,
Such an action by MacArthur would be called for if Driscoll had sinned against MacArthur. Of course, at some point the process calls for Driscoll’s elders to oversee the situation, which has never been done… or at least his elders haven’t acted in the way that Turk, MacArthur, etc. would have them act, so they continue their public whining about Driscoll.
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Did Macarthur begin his disciplinary campaign by going to MD privately or with the company of few respected leaders? Or has everything been hashed out in public?
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I have only in the last year or two heard of Mark Driscoll. What I like about Mark is he capital with a capital G. Mark is also reformed in his theological stances which is probably seen in most circles as more theological, systematically sound than the Arminian side (which of course is debatable and up for discussion) :-).
However, where I draw my lines is maybe diffferent from many people and why I like Mark is he has a very HIGH Cristology. He does not leave Christ behind to accomplish other “stuff” his Church needs to do. Christ is front and center and He makes it obvious.
Keep it up Mark Driscoll!
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“The reason so many SBC folks don’t like MD is that he exposes the warts they don’t want to believe exist.”
I’d like to change this statement to what I hope better gets my meaning across.
MD admits he lives in the world that surrounds his local church. Many SBC members (and others) pretend to live in a make believe world that is just short of Heaven on Earth. Accepting that MD is right on many things would require them to give up their personal (but shared) church fantasy.
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Though the Sunday School board published one in church manuals that were commonly used in the early-mid 20th century, Covenants are actually quite diverse in Baptist life. Many different ones, most never mentioning alcohol or friend chicken or donuts.
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Monk,
speaking of, have you ever written about the church covenant document that is so common in many churches, i know folks who want attend a church that doesn’t have it hanging up
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it may have been spelled Poke not polk
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My grandmother used the term “beverage alchohol” she also said polk instead of sack or bag and “hope” instead of help, but I digress.
It may have something to do with the church covenant that says “abatain from intoxicating drink as a beverage” leaving room for alcoholic drinks for medicinal purposes and for those true vine baptist churches that still use real wine in communion. We actually have a handfull of those around these parts.
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““Beverage alcoholâ€? What’s that? Pardon my ignorance of things Baptist, but I’ve never heard the term.”
Don’t remember hearing it either but I bet I did. In my mind it is how previous generations of SBC “all alcohol is sin” folks would have differentiated medicinal, industrial, and sacramental alcohol from the stuff you just drank to (of course) get drunk.
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A lot of Southern Baptists of a certain age use that phrase. I’ve never heard anyone else use it. It may come from prohibition.
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“Beverage alcohol”? What’s that? Pardon my ignorance of things Baptist, but I’ve never heard the term.
The amount of press Driscoll is receiving about this is amazing, and it seems he’s getting many more followers. All press is good press. It’s as true in the sub-culture war as it is in the culture war.
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You’re really gonna make me look up one of his sermons on Youtube, aren’t you? I’m trying very hard not to give a rip about who this man is.
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Driscoll is Gospel without fundamentalism. If you are having trouble separating the two, you won’t like him. I could have told you that ten pages into Radical Reformission.
No one on the SBC floor warning us about his beer drinking and cussing cares of he gets the Gospel right. He’s messing with their real religion.
If Driscoll were a Southern megachurch pastor telling offensive jokes about women and minorities, railing about booze and the culture war, the entire convention and a bunch of other cultural fundamentalists would kiss his feet.
Driscoll has his baggage, but he gets the Gospel right. The people on the SBC floor and the people insisting he’s flippant on sin are about the cultural accoutrements they’ve come to associate with God. Driscoll is a disturbance in the force. So are a bunch of people: Keller, Piper. Etc. So talk about Calvinism and language and Acts 29 Pub crawls.
This is what we’ve come to. We weigh cultural fundamentalism- right down to defending wearing ties and twisting plain scripture on alcohol- as more important than the Gospel.
Phil 1:8 But that doesn’t matter. Whether their motives are false or genuine, the message about Christ is being preached either way, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice.
Yeah, whatever.
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The reason so many SBC folks don’t like MD is that he exposes the warts they don’t want to believe exist.
Many hard core SBC faithful are of the opinion that drinking is a sin (it’s not in the Bible if you read it right), no true Christian would work with or associate with anyone who drinks or cusses or tells off color jokes, no true Christian would work for a company that markets to or extends any recognition to gays, no true ….
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Here’s the current version of the statement/inquiry:
[QUOTE]
And therein lies the crux of the matter: outside the local church, who has the authority to call a minister to resign? And all due respect to Mr. Turk, but why should *you* be the one who decides what Driscoll should apologize for, and when his apology is sufficient?
[/QUOTE]
There are other versions of that question in this thread, so if you asked one, try to read this as an answer to your version of that question.
Mark Driscoll doesn’t owe me anything, and I’m sure he doesn’t read my blog. He’s got better things to do, allegedly, like ministry. So for those of you who can’t distinguish between an ecclesiastical court, an ecumenical council, and a blog, rest assured that I can.
But in the same way that Michael here has people who read his blog and ask questions, I do, too. Because my blogging output has suffered a lot in the last 18 months, I have fewer readers than I did back in the day, but it’s still more people than most people talk to in a given day.
So when I say something like, “Masturbation jokes are shameful for anyone to tell; a pastor who tells one on TV should repent publicly since he sinned publicly,” and thereafter, “if he can’t figure out how to repent, he should resign,” that’s an opinion, not a verdict. What you don’t see me doing is leading campaigns to picket MHC or start a letter-writing campaign to MD telling him he’s a spiritual punk.
Asking “by what authority” is appealing to the wrong magisterium. I don’t have the authority to make him resign. I have a blog. I have one opinion, which is not even a vote.
Do with it what you will.
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honestly, I always knew Mark Driscoll by name (as that guy some of my friends liked reading, while that guy that some other Christians said they wanted to wash his mouth out with soap) – kind of amusing to hear about, but nothing that took my interest
It wasn’t until Phil Johnson’s Shepherds Conference sermon and MacArthur’s “The Rape of Solomon’s Song” that I started reading more about Driscoll. Now after IMonk’s debate with Turk, and all the comments about this, I’ve actually become a supporter of Driscoll. The more I hear him speak or read what he actually says, the more I like him. I don’t think this would ever have happened if everyone hadn’t been suddenly criticizing the guy so much.
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Mike: Go resign from something.
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“Lastly, I know MD is not SBC, but we SBC’s have done a great disservice to our folks by being so embarrassed to even talk about sex. Were it not for my older brother I don’t I would have ever knew anything. My parents totally ignored the issue and growing up I can remember folks being made to feel very guilty about any thing sexual.”
I think that’s a big thing right there. I’m a 20-something guy (which is a large demographic of Driscoll’s), who has grown up in the SBC. On the topic of sex, gorwing up I heard nothing from my church and next to nothing from my parents. What I’ve found is that a lot of my friends (from all different regions/denominations) who grew up in churches were in the same boat. Sex is this hush-hush topics that we almost pretend doesn’t exist.
The problem is, we live in a culutre that is so sexually charged it’s hard to escape (for example, I have a 12YO nephew who goes to a Christian school, listens only to Christian music, lives in a home with minimal internet access and no TV–about as sheltered as you can get, and yet one time I caught him at my place looking up porn on the computer). And sadly, most guys I know my age or younger have had some significant exposure to porn. When it comes to everything we’re bombarded with, and the silence from the people who are supposed to disciple us, it has created a generation both in and out of the church that is confused about sexuality.
I think a lot of us are tired of hear general answers about “purity” and “chastity” and “honoring the marriage bed,” when we’re asking specific questions about what those things mean practically.
Now can Driscoll be a bit immature at times, yeah. But one of the things that I like about him is his willingness to speak to the topics and the questions, and attempt to workout a practical godliness on topics like this.
It’s like a class I took at the SBC seminary I attended. It was on marriage and family, and taught by the seminary’s president (I won’t say which one, but I will say it wasn’t Akin). Near the end of the semester, he broke the class up into two groups/rooms: guys’ and ladies’. He then shut his recording microphone off and said, “Okay, now’s the opportunity. Ask anything you want, no topic is off limits.”
After some initial hesitation, the topics brought up were the same things Driscoll discussed in his sermons. On some things different answers were given, but the discussion was just as frank and “vulgar/crude” as anything Driscoll mentioned (all the way down to speaking about certain websites).
Not a single guy I know walked out of that class disgusted, but rather relieved: 1) because we came to realize we weren’t alone–we all had questions and wanted godly direction, and 2) because someone actually dared to speak open and honestly to us on the topcis, and didn’t shy away under some victorian shadow of shame.
God created sex for good. Maybe if our churches were more bold in discussing what that means in a way that glorifies God, we wouldn’t need the likes of men like Driscoll to shock and disturb us.
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And despite all the yes/no questions and syllogisms and variety of other rhetorical devices employed, that is the one question that has yet to be answered by Mr. Turk or anyone persuaded by his way of thinking.
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“Mark Driscoll to resign? You have missed the gospel and are foolish enough to think that your self-righteousness makes you fit to preach.”
But you are fit to judge who is a self-righteous fool for having “missed the gospel”?
Surely you must see the irony. If Frank Turk does not have the authority to judge Mark Driscoll, neither do you have the authority to judge Frank Turk.
And therein lies the crux of the matter: outside the local church, who has the authority to call a minister to resign? And all due respect to Mr. Turk, but why should *you* be the one who decides what Driscoll should apologize for, and when his apology is sufficient?
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CD-Host,
I’d love to see you do that. I think there is much disfunction in Fudie families b/c of attitudes we are talking about, at least my experience supportst the thesis.
Austin
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I can’t believe one independent church pastor (Mcarthur) is calling upon another independent church pastor (Driscoll) to resign. Its not like they are part of the same denomination and one is bishop over the other. In an independent church the only ones who should calling for a pastor to resign is the congregation. Independent churches do not have an accountability structure except to themselves.
Though with their church planting activities and their celebrity status it seems like each of them may be starting their own denominations in time. When it gets to that point then they may need bishops or superintendents or whatever they choose to call them to try to handle the chaos.
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Chris Coppenbarger said:
I think the Donald Miller comment was so directed at Driscoll because of Driscoll calling out the Emergents on issues. Remember that Driscoll started out with the Emergents until he realized that they weren’t teaching sound doctrine. It was at that point that he parted ways, Miller’s book came out, and since then we have “the cussing pastor.â€
Actually, Blue Like Jazz came out way back in 2003, and that was way before most people knew anything about Emergent, Emerging, or Rob Bell… or Driscoll for that matter. I imagine that Miller probably wrote the manuscript a year or so before it was actually published. I highly doubt he imagined the church politics that the phrase “cussing pastor” would provoke. Not everyone is a jaded insider…
Honestly, I’m still amazed at this whole debate. Most non-Christians would be amazed that anyone would consider anything Driscoll said really swearing anyways. I think the whole thing reeks of the SBC rearranging it’s deck chairs before Leonardo freezes to death…
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On the issue of Dr. Akin, I am glad his voice is being heard in the Convention during these days. I’m hopeful for the future with men like him shaping the next generation, and I’m prayerful God will bless the efforts of our Convention to return to what’s important. With that said, however, I think it would do us all well to tread cautiously on all of this personality stuff. I wonder where the line is between these men being our models/mentors versus being a line of demarcation and a measurement of fellowship? Have we replaced Apollos, Peter and Paul in 1 Corinthians 1 with names like Driscoll, Piper, and MacArthur (or whomever)?
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Austin —
I agree with you very strongly on your point #3. The data is unequivocal on the effects of under education: huge increase in abortion, huge increase in teen motherhood, sexual disfunction, broken marriages…. I’ve been playing around in my head with creating a “fundamentalism and sex” series that just lists out the data on these topics where it exists.
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TM: He told a masturbation joke on CNN. Google Youtube Hughley Driscoll.
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As a busy mom, I am only able to check these blogs once in a while. I was so shocked to read the blog headlines this morning. I quickly read most of them to figure out what in the world Mark Driscoll did. I couldnt find anything besides the disagreement with the theology and presentation of the Peasant Princess series. I thought the level of intensity was going to reveal that he had an affair or that his wife left him or whatever else my imagination could make up. In this highly charged sexual culture we live in, after listening to his series, I found it the only helpful material I’ve found in years. I found a way I could talk to my pre-Christian friends about sex…my husband and I had some very frank discussions about the foxes that run in our marriage…and the resource page attached to the sermon series we plan to dig into more. I’m deep in the trenches and I’m looking for help and yet every time I jump into these controversies, I find the critics are more the willing to take away my help rather than pointing people like me towards something they would consider more in tune with their critical beliefs. The best I could find in scanning the bajillion comments this morning is a reference to a commentary on SOS. I wish I could sit down with a commentary or two and a cup of coffee and figure all this out for myself, but again…not at this time in my life. Thanks at least for posting this reasonable statement by Danny Akin to provide some measure of calm to this tempest in a teapot.
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I wish pastors would spend more time shepherding their own congregations and less time blasting other pastors for perceived iniquities. Did MD screw up? Yeah, he probably went too far. But like someone said earlier, these guys like MacArthur should pull the planks out of their own eyes first. Driscoll obviously isn’t a heretic since men like Piper are willing to mentor him. So instead of nitpicking each other, how about we build up and edify?
A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. I don’t think Jesus was wrong.
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Resign?! Resign?! (my Jim Mora impression). That’s ridiculous. Driscoll could use a change in some things he does, and there is this tiring sense of waiting for him to grow up in some of what he says, but let’s see the good he is doing and keep encouraging proper guidance.
Some of the coarse humor I’ve heard him use is far from impressive, his interpretation of SOS has been somewhat weird, but I would say the best thing to do is keep pressing him on some of these things instead of calling for his head.
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Scott — the reason few in these circles go after Osteen is because the Young, Restless, and Reformed(tm) crowd see right through him. However, some folks in conservative circles are afraid of the young seminarians trying to be like MD.
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Mark Driscoll… mmm let’s see…
The guy is venturing to reach a generation that is mostly numb to traditional (or conventional) religion. Of course he will make mistakes, or even sin! is part of the risk of being in the “sinners zone”.
Makes me think about Peter, when he asked the Lord to walk on water…
For the one of us that are very comfy in the boundaries of our safe religion (or denomination), he is an example. Should the other disciples ask Peter for repentance, ’cause he made himself a fool in front of the Lord? mmm…
Do I condone his language or any specific views, no. But…
Those of you that are without sin, please cast the first stone.
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Driscoll asked, “Who the hell do you think you are?” Those men probably needed to be asked that question and in that manner. Bravo.
Ed Young, Jr. has said God d–n it from his pulpit a few years ago, no one has said a word.
Joel Osteen is far more dangerous in my mind. You can lump in any number of the others if his ilk too.
Driscoll is trying to get it done and I think there are some who are jealous rather than concerned. I think they’re jealous that God is using Driscoll and Acts 29 and not them.
I do agree with the sentiment that Driscoll is accountable to his elders. If the elders are Driscoll sycophants, then Driscoll will have to answer to God for that one too in my personal opinion.
But to repeat myself, I think much of this is petty jealousy from those who would attack Driscoll for his actions from years ago, especially since he’s supposedly repented for those same actions.
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Thanks, Michael. I respect those guys as well, which is why I find their fascination with this whole thing a bit odd.
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From my perspective, it’s an extremely minor issue. From the standpoint of some of our reformed friends, it’s a serious matter. Macarthur has been after this for years and has said in a four part post MD should resign ministry. That’s a pretty serious request to a guy who preaches the Gospel as clearly as MD in a very tough place to do so.
But I respect them and if I didn’t, I wouldn’t have taken up blog space and time with it.
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Michael,
This whole Driscoll matter is just silly. Am I wrong?
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Sam,
I dont’ think he was mocking folks who hold to the allegory. I have always been taught it that way, and I know folks dont’ agree, maybe even Imonk, but I still think it fits pretty nicely that way. But the love poetry angle is nice too. I find it sort of refresing that the Bible speaks to all aspects of our lives. If more couples would model SoS then there would be less problems in many marriages.
And model not just the sexual acts, the desire, longing, and appreciation.
Austin
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Thank you, President Danny Akin for inviting people of different tradtions to speak and to mentioning classic Christian literature.
This is how we learn from one another. No one has all the answers. If you think you do you have a very small God. We don’t always have to agree but closing our minds to others traditions and way of doing, thinking and believing makes us, well, closed minded.
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CD Host,
Thanks for the good info, I have been hearing about this Song sermon for ever and finally got around to reading it. I don’t have much new, but here are my takes.
1. If you are going to be any sort of Protestant/Baptist that believes in the local church being the only authority then all of this really isn’t any of our concern other than what Imonk has pointed out as a rebuke vs. discipline. The simple truth is that even if I disagreed with MD I have no standing to discipline him. That is the way of congregational politity. The only ones I am accountable to as a pastor are my church and ultimately the Lord. Being a baptist pastor is a little strange b/c you are sort of free-wheeling, that can be bad and good.
2. As far as the content, he probably could have been a little less explicit, or even really just more serious and less jokey, but I didn’t get the impression that he was trying to be obscene. Would my very sweet group of little old blue hair ladies at my church blush, certainly, but I’m not in Seattle preaching to folks who already have the false impression that to be a Christian means to not have any more fun in life.
3. Lastly, I know MD is not SBC, but we SBC’s have done a great disservice to our folks by being so embarrassed to even talk about sex. Were it not for my older brother I don’t I would have ever knew anything. My parents totally ignored the issue and growing up I can remember folks being made to feel very guilty about any thing sexual. I have vowed to not make the same mistake with my children or my ministry.
4. As a little joke, but seriously too, I told my older brother once that I wouldnt’ have dared thought about dating any of the girls from our type of church (indie fundie baptist). I went and got me a good big city pants wearing NIV toting SBC girl, and he went off to college and got a nice PCUSA girl.
Austin
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My first professor at seminary made a statement that has stuck with me. He said that if you agree 100% with a book it is either:
– A book you wrote
– The Bible
Hopefully everyone is mature enough to separate the good from the bad. I think the fear in some circles is that the Young, Restless, and Reformed(tm) crowd will try to emulate him.
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Hell is a place. Not a curse word. If that is the best of the accusations against MD, he is ok in my book. If he is OK is The Book of Life, that is what counts.
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Here is a comment i left over at the link:
“Dr Akin,
You say that Mark Driscoll hasnt used any bad language from the pulpit in several years but just recently he screamed at the men from the pulpit asking them “who in the Hell do they think they are?†Do you agree with this sort of language coming from the pulpit?
I find it ironic that you tell your readers to make sure they have up to date info about Mark and yet you seem to not have up to date info regarding his use of language from the pulpit or his use of homosexual imagery in his Peasant Princess series where he mocks people that hold to SoS as an allegory of Jesus and the church.”
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Hi iMonk I’m glad to see Frank is also following this thread. I like to notify people when I mention them, you both got mentioned in my post on this issue, MacArthur v. Driscoll.
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It seems to me the SBC is more worried about market share and keeping people from thinking that drinking in moderation is ok than they are about whether people are hearing the Gospel and coming to a saving faith in Christ. They need to stop worrying about how many rebaptisms they’re getting and try spreading the Gospel instead of legalism.
(Ouch….that sounded harsher than I mean it to..)
This definitely seems like a log in your eye kind of situation. Driscoll has some specks in his eye, but the SBC has some major redwoods that need extraction. When they are preaching the Gospel as accurately as Driscoll does, they can nitpick his sins. Very little of this seems to be theologically based criticism though.
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Geez…we have some SBC folks who need to take a nap. I am a long term SBC guy. I am excited at the prospect of changes in the denomination but am thoroughly tired of the debate about Driscoll, mostly from people in safe spots far from pioneer work in the Pacific Northwest. Based on the whole of the New Testament I think Jesus is a lot more comfortable with plain talking honesty than he is with religious rule makers who set them selves up as the arbiters of the fitness of the rest of us.
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Mark Driscoll to resign? You have missed the gospel and are foolish enough to think that your self-righteousness makes you fit to preach. Mark Driscoll is controversial because the Spirit is using him to convict sinners. He preaches the full gospel and points people to Jesus. Sometime we don’t like what we hear so we are quick to attack him. He’s not infallible nor does he claim to be. I’m glad for godly men like Driscoll, Akin and Piper. I got the privilege of listening to all three men speak in June during the Advance09 conference.
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Bror: Driscoll has a Biblcal view of alcohol.
Akin is a Southern Baptist Seminary President. Need I say more? 🙂
MOD NOTE: Was glad to answer the question. WILL NOT POST COMMENTS seeking to argue this point.
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And just to keep things interesting, we should all consider this seriously:
I think if we can cut through the brush regarding the obvious mistakes in the Driscoll camp, it gives us a clear space in which we can cut through the more subtle and insidious problems in the Christian camp regarding our theology of sexual ethics and practices.
That’s where I’d take this discussion, btw: if it could be established that there are obvious mistakes which someone is repenting of and will avoid in the future, I would leverage that to go after the subtle legalism of many of his critics who may be able to spot the porn-vices but can’t spot the prude-vices.
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Driscoll says that drinking in moderation is okay, which is a Biblical position. The typical SBC position is that all drinking is sinful, at least that’s the way I understand it. Apparently, you can’t be a missionary appointee if you’ve had just one drink within the past year of applying. Silly landmarkist legalism.
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I think the Donald Miller comment was so directed at Driscoll because of Driscoll calling out the Emergents on issues. Remember that Driscoll started out with the Emergents until he realized that they weren’t teaching sound doctrine. It was at that point that he parted ways, Miller’s book came out, and since then we have “the cussing pastor.”
That being said, I’m with Akin. And I would like to add, that the Song of Solomon series was good without the Q&A. I’m also a conservative Southerner, not a Northwestern liberal.
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What is Mark Driscol’s position on beverage alcohol?
What is the problem with it? Does he advocate drunkenness?
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So the “10 questions” sermon series which happened last year and is in a book this year has none of the same sort of problematic language?
The “Vintage Jesus” book has none of that language or coarse jesting?
Hughley?
You know: I picked one because it was (at that time) the most recent. But I think Dr. Akin is choosing to minimize his differences with MD for a specific SBC reasson: putting to death the landmarkist legalism inside the convention.
Does he need to resign? Not hardly. Does he need to be careful how he sets up those who oppose him and his current good work by endorsing someone or something which, frankly, will be used by his opponents to make more trouble from reasonably-current events?
Because he’s at least that savvy in SBC politics, the answer has got to be “yes”.
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I’m guessing that if Donald Miller could do it all over again, he would’ve left out that comment.
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Donald Miller’s single wise acre comment has done more damage than can be calculated. I like Don, but that is an example of someone on the editorial side asleep at the wheel. A real shame.
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Aren’t these just growing pains… you didn’t think you could change the way you partner, do kingdom work and associate without some fussers did ya’?
It’s Jesus’ church, we’re beginning to recognize that and act accordingly. There’s a season of stretching ahead, some more than others.
Stay civil, keep the person of Jesus and His gospel central, love like crazy and see what happens.
Akin, et al… thanks.
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I’m with Dr. Akin. He was my preaching prof in seminary and I consider him one of the finest Christian men on the planet. And MP3s of some of Driscoll’s sermons were absolutely vital to me during a spiritually difficult time in my life a few years back. I love them both.
And I’m not sure Paul would have had the same hangups about rough language in Christian ministry that some of us do. =)
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I guess when you oppose one person, you get to go up the mic, spew a bunch of accusations and stuff you have rehashed from blogosphere because you figured out how to use Google and present no evidence to the contrary.
James 1:5 much?
I was introduced to Mark Driscoll when I heard a quote from Donald Miller referring to Driscoll as “the cussing pastor”. I was like, “Why in the world would I want to listen to a pastor cuss from the pulpit.”
In one years time, I have listen to about 5 years worth of Driscoll sermons and have read Confessions, Vintage Jesus, Vintage Church and Death by Love.
Why is he considered the cussing pastor?
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I am so thankful for Danny Akin. The more I know about him the more I like him and am grateful that he is in the SBC.
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Dr. Macarthur and supporters want Driscoll to resign. Frank wants him to repent publicly or (I assume) resign. (Correct me if I’m wrong.) Dr. Akin says the man is a sinner, we don’t agree on all things, but I can learn from him and hopefully vice versa.
I’m with Akin.
If Akin’s approval of Driscoll means he should resign as well, then you’ll have to find another blogger to defend that one. I’ve got a book about Jesus to research/write.
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