Moving on, folks. Moving on.
Reader Chris has written me a couple of notes on my overall views of youth ministry. I owe him an answer, but I’d like to open up a couple of posts on the general idea of where we are going in youth ministry. I’ve been involved primarily with teenagers for 30 of my 34 years of church ministry. For more than a decade, I did lots of church consultation and I had successful youth ministries in two large churches. I made it to a lot of large youth events down through the years and heard most of the best speakers on the youth ministry circuit.
There was a time I was really sure how to “do” youth ministry. Today….a lot of my thinking has changed. Here’s a few thoughts. More coming.
1. I’m concerned about the idea of “Biblical models” in general. By that I mean that we seem to be saying there is a Biblical component we can place in a larger machine and make the outcome Biblical. In fact, if the entire system isn’t “Biblical,” we have problems. I did what I thought was “Biblical” youth ministry in churches that contradicted most of the values of Jesus on a regular basis, but I was quite sure I was doing a “Biblical” youth ministry. I’m now of the view that the entire paradigm has to be questioned, from fundamentals to details.
2. It all rolls on how you view the church and how you see the overall church carrying out the mission of Jesus. Young people are not a subset of the church’s mission that just happen to be handed over to twenty year olds and people with guitars. Whatever the church is doing needs to be relevant to young people: worship, pastoral care, teaching, mission, evangelism, stewardship. The scary thing for a lot of youth workers is the possibility that they might have to give up their cool outreaches and trips in order to be more like the church/follower Jesus wants. We’ve been told that we can use any tool to make church interesting, so youth workers like myself were allowed to run a program of fun, trips, food, sports, recreation, etc. in order to keep young people hanging around for whatever the church was doing. We now know that those young people simply insisted that the church become like their youth group and, ta da- there is today’s evangelicalism. Oh…and there’s a bunch of our kids, never coming back to church again because they eqaute it with juvenile, shallow entertainment.
3. So I think we are talking church from start to finish, and then addressing various groups only as it is missionally and practically warranted. The Biblical “model” is a series of relationships in which we are formed and participate: God, family, church, community. Youth ministry is a subset of all four, but can’t create a fifth place where everything comes packaged for youth. And that is the issue so many older youth guys like myself feel. Back in the day, we packaged Jesus. He doesn’t fit in the package, but we made him fit. The Procrustean bed, so to speak. The results are now on display in evangelicalism. My entire family has abandoned evangelicalism for the Anglican/Catholic church. What are they looking for? What evangelicalism doesn’t have but keeps selling like it does. We are the original spiritual snake oil salesmen. So much of that started with well-intentioned youth ministry.
4. I realize that many youth workers will never be in a church that will ever do anything intentionally or reformationally. The program is already in a package and you are just supposed to get the kids there. It’s not a situation where you need to waste your time going to the pastor and elders and asking the whole church to change into something Jesus would recognize. So you have to do the best with what you have, and all I can say about that is you may need to make enormous changes in your own ideas of what you want to do. The shift from getting 120 kids to a concert to getting 12 kids to pray every morning is huge, and most churches won’t put up with it. So as I said, you have to do the best with what you have. Impact kids so they want more of Jesus. Make that your mission.
5. The “Family Led Youth Ministry” idea has some possibilities, but I am not impressed with those I’ve heard who advocate it. Show me this model, in a church producing risk-taking, independent minded disciples and not dependent, controlled, tied to parents, afraid of the world inhabitants of a ghetto mentality, and I’ll be more impressed. As of now, I cannot sign on to the “our youth program = our homeschool program” as the answer. I realize what the standard responses will be, but I do not believe home schooling can work for the majority of families. I’m happy for those that find it works, but I work with a lot of dysfunctional families and there are millions of people who do not need to be homeschooling their kids. I believe the church MUST serve all varieties of family constructions and choices, and not just affirm and encourage one.
Let me be clear that families- where there are Christian families- are obviously crucial. But Jesus isn’t creating a community of families. He’s recreating the family around him.
More in a little while on what we actually do in youth ministry: Formation for Discipleship or Apocalyptic Uselessness?
The Internet Monk Archives 
I am Fahim Qaiser from Pakistan . I have studied your web site, and I found it the most wonderful site to get right to the True Word of God. My suggestion for you is to create your material in my language of Urdu and Punjabi also. It will bring lots of blessings of the Word of God for the Pakistani and Indian Urdu and Punjabi speaking people. For that purpose I as a translator will bring your material into Urdu languages and into Punjabi language as well.
Although it will take your low expenses as well, as fund for the Word of God to reach out to the deserving people. I my self, work on a local radio station also. Many times it becomes difficult for us to keep doing this because of being minorities and because of the lack of the financial resources. I will wait for your response.
Sincerely,
Fahim Qaiser ( Pakistan ).
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There are good, dedicated youth ministers out there—many. However, far too often I’ve seen youth ministers who are young men who can’t seem to get their lives organized, don’t really want to grow up but enjoy “hanging out” with similarly immature teens doing whatever things are “hip” at the moment and figure that they can keep hanging out and not really accomplishing anything while at the same time feeling like they’re somehow serving God. They have no life experience of their own, they take a few courses at a Christian college and voila, they’re suddenly the shepherd for teenagers, many of which will actually be more balanced and mature than the youth pastors. This is not meant to be an indictment of youth ministers in particular—lots of pastors in general go that route because they can’t do anything else. Either way, the result is shallow Christianity. As one observer has said on another website, we have a church a mile wide but an inch deep. We need age appropriate discipleship for youth, but the shepherds should be well established Christians with deep Biblical understanding and life experience—-they are the ones, contrary to what popular culture says (“if it’s old, it’s not worth considering”) that will actually be most respected and most impactful on youth development. A handful of deep disciples is better than a stadium full of shallow and immature ones.
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Thanks mamazee! I was starting to think everyone just skipped over my post because is was too loooooooooooooong.
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i really liked Shaun’s reply – a ton of really doable talking/thinking points. I’ve got seven children, and the oldest is 13. We’re kind of at a crossroads as our church just recently got a pastor (after almost two years with none, just struggling, limping, hurting along). The church is kind of coming back to life/waking up and deciding what it wants..
Reservations i have about youth group are the same as my reservations about institutional church. Does it somehow claim to replace a real relationship with Jesus? I grew up in pentecostal church and for SURE if you came to youth every week and were involved in the extra credit cheer squad you were a Christian. If it didn’t speak to you, any of it – you weren’t. Well, i loved Jesus, i loved His Word. I wanted to be a Christian, but nothing about youth appealed to me after the age of about 14. (Until then, i liked the fun activities and trips :)…)I was hardcore into jazz, science fiction, philosophy, and i hated the soft logic and appeals to emotion that ruled that particular brand of youth group… I knew that God was not only good, and loved me, but that HE was powerful and the source of all knowledge and logic. So why was the church all about pastel colored guilt trips?
I don’t want my children to define their spiritual journey by mandatory attendance in a building. I also am not hugely comfortable with the leadership (they say 30% of men in church have a porn addiction) – nuff said.
What i would like to do is find a way to both cultivate friendships for my children with other children from Christian families, and also to cultivate relationships with people who are not Christian yet. And i would like my children to consider the spiritual component of any friendship they have… i think service is a good way to do this… I feel like missions trips are just fun times for rich folk sometimes 🙂 – but i know that for some people, it can be a life changing thing, and i don’t want to say no to anything that might be a way my children finally *see* who God is, and what they are made for…
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“But to tell my kids that HSM is bad because the star sent some nudie pictures to her friends…?”
When we go there we have to go to where we don’t watch any movies or TV. It is very hard to find any “media” where a character hasn’t done similar or worse in their personal life.
This is what bugs me about most of these types of “boycotts”. They are selectively blind.
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My wife and I were talking a bit yesterday while the kiddos were playing at the camp’s playground. Do we really want our kids to be a part of a youth program that espouses the gospel of morality? Peer pressuring the kids into what music to listen to (or not), what movies and television to watch (or not), and what to read (or not)?
I like the Youth Pastor who heads the children’s ministries where the kids go every week. I really do. His heart is in the right place, I think, and his door is open to all sorts of kids (youth) wherever they are in their journeys. But I really don’t want my kids to be taking a sledge hammer to their CDs that the other kids say are evil, especially after their parents (my wife and I) have approved of their choices.
I agree there is a time for freedom and choices. But these should be about finding life and truth. Not because some album is by some midriff-and-navel-piercing baring young woman who is also trying to find her place in the big scheme of things.
Who knows how I’ll feel when my kids get beyond High School Musical and Harry Potter? But to tell my kids that HSM is bad because the star sent some nudie pictures to her friends…? We all do and have done stuff we’re not proud of. And I can give her the same grace I’d give my kids if they thought of doing something like that.
I don’t know. I just see a youth program as another attempt to cloister and protect our kids from the real world, instead of actually parenting them through failures and hurts.
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Is it necessarily an EITHER-OR issue, choosing between large, crowd-drawing ministries and smaller, discipleship-intense ministries? Is it not rather a matter of tailoring our efforts to reach various students where they are at and moving them along in the process of deeper discipleship?
Can we not use crowd-attracting events for outreach and then have deeper-discipleship training for the more committed, core kids?
I wonder what all of your thoughts are on Saddleback’s concentric circles of different target audiences? They have different ministry “programs” geared to move teens over time from being a mere spectator to sold out disciples of Christ. They have various events/programs to minster to COMMUNITY, CROWDS, CONGREGATION, COMMITTED and CORE kids.
With that said, I agree that we should put most of our good time and effort into the few, committed students who are serious about growing in discipleship to Christ.
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I think there are a large number of factors that go into the issues churches face with the “youth” (i.e., young adults).
1) Nearly every aspect of American popular culture sets young adults against their parents (and the older generations in general) rather than encouraging understanding, cooperation, and continuity. Most teenagers shaped by our culture want all the freedoms that bona fide adults have but absolutely none of the responsibilities that come with those freedoms. When I told a Chinese friend of the parent/teenager conflict that is so ubiquitous to our culture, she was flabberghasted. (This same Chinese friend told me she could not think of a single Chinese couple she knew that had gotten a divorce; talk about a stark contrast.)
2) Far too many Christian parents operate in “Do As I Say, Not As I Do” mode, and young adults are disgusted by the hypocrisy they see on a daily basis. How many teenagers have seen their parents act all nice to people at the service and then badmouth those same people all the way home or over Sunday dinner? Or how many teenagers have seen their parents “clean up” the house, hiding anything possibly “incriminating,” before the pastor comes over to visit? If that kind of two-faced behavior is what Christianity (or church membership) is about, who needs it?
3) Many congregations, especially ones that lean towards the older demographics, either do not know what to do with young adults or frankly do not care. They really are not interested in these people until they get married and start having kids. Once again, this might just be a symptom of the intergenerational disconnect. Youth ministers are hired in order to keep those rowdy “youth” entertained and out of the hair of the rest of the church. The “youth” are like the black sheep of the church family to be tolerated until they grow out of it. How many churches have the designated teenager corner in the auditorium where they all talk, pass notes (or send text messages), and cut up throughout every service? I know because I was one of them.
4) Most young adults these days find their role models outside of the church (entertainers, athletes, etc.) rather than in it, so leaving the church once they reach a certain age is a given if they are to pursue those aspirations. How many young adults do you know who aspire to be a deacon, an elder, or a Sunday School teacher when they grow up?
5) Most teenagers do not see any kind of connection between what they learn in church classes and the way the “real world” works. That is, the Bible is not presented in its historical context in such a way that they learn that these “stories” are historical accounts of real people living in real countries under real governments and experiencing real events influenced by a real God. When I took Greek Mythology in junior high, the otherworldy tales featured did not seem much more outlandish than what I had been taught in Sunday School, since little or no historical context had been provided. In their minds, every biblical account starts with, “Once upon a time.” It is like Gould’s proposed NOMA: Teenagers learn about the “real world” on school days and learn about the “religious world” on Sundays. Eventually, they decide the moral imperatives associated with the latter cramp their style, so they jettison it at first chance.
I could probably think of more factors, but those are the ones that immediately come to mind.
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I think its useful to think of youth ministry ( and for that matter, adult ministry) as a process. Its necessary have some events and environments that bring marginal students into the ministry as well as events and environments that help move all of the students into a deeper relationship with Christ. Along the way, youth leadership must focus on helping students find a place in which they belong and find access to a caring, doctrinally sound adult who can help and mentor them along.
It only lasts a few years. Only so much can come from a great youth ministry but when our kids have great high school experiences that don’t have staying power, we have failed to help them establish godly roots. Ultimately we have failed at youth ministry.
Too many youth ministers are evaluated by the numbers this week and not by the outcomes, five and ten years on.
Either or thinking and static models are doomed by their nature.
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“It’s about a subversive, ‘on the go’ tribe of disciples doing life together intimately. If so, how do we do that?”
That sounds like a lot of hype to me, personally.
The reality of belonging to the Christian community is pretty mundane: living in a town and going to church and reading a Bible every so often.
I’ve never met a “subversive, ‘on the go’ disciple” that ever had anything intimate to say to me – but I have met a lot of earnest, self-absorbed kids who want Theological Importance superadded to their journal entries and pedantic conversations with strangers.
If you can point out to me the difference between them in the real world, I’ll think about buying what you’re selling.
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David Ulrich…
Have you read Frank Viola’s “Pagan Christianity?”?
I also recomend “Reimaginig church” the constructive sequel to “Pagan”.
God Bless.
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I agree with you, iMonk, that the whole paradigm has to be questioned “from fundamentals to details.†Many times I have “gone to church,†and I end up asking myself, “What in the world are we doing?†Is what we do as “church†anything like what the first century church did? Did they have a “youth pastor†who had to come up with cool programs and activities to get a lot of other teens to “come to church†too?
I often imagine all the nonsensical “programs†and “ministries†that would instantly disappear if the church in America ever came under heavy persecution and we suffered like many of our brothers and sisters of the past and the many who presently suffer.
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We’re good, Cindy. I do hope I didn’t come across as calling you out. I’m actually hoping (okay, I’m registered, anyway) to start my grad program in Marriage and Family Therapy through a mainstream denominational university which shall remain nameless. (Don’t want to get Michael into hot water!)
From distribution center project management and engineering… Because God has something different now for me to do. And I believe I’m called and somewhat gifted in it. Or so I’ve been told, anyway. 🙂
I will say, back to topic, that I think the reason parents aren’t as involved as the youth are that a lot of youth groups are outreach-based in order to get the parents to check out the church where their youth is going for several hours a week.
And I don’t understand the short term youth trips overseas when millions of dollars could be saved every year by reaching folks stateside. $3-5k is quite a hunk of money, mostly going to plane tickets and other transportation, I’m sure. Leave the mission trips to the long-term folks.
I’ve often heard the short term trips as feel-good vacations. “I did my part.” But the construction projects, oftentimes, are left incomplete because, well, the walls are up (everyone wants to be a carpenter…) but never mind the water, lamps (electric or otherwise), sewage lines… You know. The IMPORTANT stuff… 🙂
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Derek,
You said:
I agree with the above completely. I’m sorry my earlier comment was lacking. I hyper-focused on the idea that not going on mission trips is somehow hypocrisy. I think some the of short-term mission trips I’ve known lay people to do were little more than feel-good opportunities.
I don’t disagree with anything you say here, either. Thanks for responding, Derek.
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The biggest problem I’ve seen in youth groups (after the watered-down messages) is that most of them don’t seem to care about all teenagers. That’s why I left my youth group at 17. I’m not saying the leaders didn’t really care, I think that they just didn’t know what to do with anyone who was not your “normal American teenager”. As an extremely-introverted, single, intellectual, foreign-language-learning, French-literature-reading, classical-music-listening history buff, it wasn’t just that I didn’t feel like I had anything in common with the youth group. That wasn’t what mattered to me. I left when I realized that the leaders and youth of the group truly didn’t know how to interact with me. As much as I would have liked to have friends among those my own age, I ended up in a Sunday school group where the average age was about 50 just so that I could have people to talk to. Having theologically-deep lessons was merely a side benefit (at least at the time, I’m now 22 and far more grateful for hermaneutics and theologians).
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First time commenting, but this issue is one that hits close to home. I’m not in youth ministry,but I have a 16 year old daughter and a 12 year old daughter. I was raised in an independent Bible church and also attend one. My own youth group experience as a kid seemed great, but as I look back now, it wasn’t the program but the fact that the kids in that group were my closest friends. In reality, we kind of made our own youth group. Anyway my oldes daughter has struggled with the youth group in our own church. They do some things very well. Teaching is very sound and they integrate the kids into the church and get them to serve in a variety of way, but the kids who don’t quite fit the “church” model of perfect kid don’t do so well here. Why? I really believe the youth minister loves the Lord and wants to serve, but why aren’t kids who perhaps haven’t made a commitment to the Lord or who may be “rebelling” against some norms not feel welcomed. My take come from the fact that I allowed my daughter to attend another youth group, very small and I checked out what the youth pastor believed and she loves it. What’s the difference? Relationships. This guy goes to lunch with the kids, shows up at their games and activities, loves them where they are and talks to them about Jesus. He’s gone from a amall youth group of non-believers to a small youth group of new christians who are being discipled and loved by a caring and smart young man. When I sent my daughter to his group, I asked him what his philosopy was on youth ministry. He told me, develop relationships with kids and then use those relationships to share the gospel. Not bad for a 22 year old. We can entertain them to death (and there is a place for age appropriate fun), teach theology til we are blue in the face, but if no bonds or relationships are being formed, I’m not sure a lot is going to happen. Loving them with Christ-like love even when they mess up (and that would mean not ignoring the mess up, but helping them get through it) speaks volumes to kids and anyone else. Not sure this makes sense. I could write a book on my feelings about this, thanks for bringing it up and making people think.
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I wonder if each of you who has taken the time to respond to iMonks post on youth ministry, realize how important it is that you have done so? I don’t have any formal training in ministry, but I have been a Christian for thirty years, since the age of fifteen. I was never in a youth group – as it relates to the current models indicated in this blog, but my daughter was until she went to college last year; she was fortunate to have an excellent youth pastor.
I have been seeking answers to the very same questions posed here, albeit unrelated specifically to youth ministry alone. My question has been more directly related to the lack of participation of churches within the community inwhich they reside. I am a member of an SBC Baptist church, and what prompted my query is related entirely to my own relationship with God.
As an attendee of a sunday school class – I am a father of five and husband, I am concerned that too often the focus of our classes is shallow. What I mean by shallow is that the materiel is geared toward “the sincere milk of the word” and the structure of the class is restricted to the materiel presented, with no practical exercises involving service as a group. There are those ocassions where we may get together outside of church for a babeque, but that is a far cry from “to live is Christ – to die is gain.”
As some of you have stated, the need to provide a transition from youth to college and carreer is evident. At the same time there is also a need to expand into a 2.0 version to introduce more advanced discipleship training for those who have moved beyond the sincere milk. Training specifically oriented toward recognizing and building our spiritual gifts, and learning to employ those gifts in ministry is the stop gap answer as I see it. There are people of many different ages who are ready for 2.0, so part of the problem is the misguided notion of grouping everyone by age instead of maturity in Christ.
The other item of concern is the need to recognize the difference between those motivated to serve and those qualified to serve. I know that God doesn’t call the equiped, He equips the called, but church leadership must also recognize that not everyone who desires to serve in a particular area possessess the spiritual gifts nescessary to be successful. This is where the 2.0 classes would guide those eager to serve in areas suited to their gifts.
I think the real key to any successfull ministry is first to emphasize the relationship, second to drive the focus of the ministry toward understanding the intimate nature of our relationship with Christ, third to provide direct training in recognizing and developing each persons spiritual gifts – while keeping the focus of that training on the relationship. Finally, to employ each person into a specific ministry as they demonstrate the maturity necessary to actively participate. This is of course an ongoing process for every person involved in ministry, and the reality from my perspective is that everyone who is maturing in Christ should understand that they have a calling to some ministry. At 45, I’m getting ready to go back to college to get my BA in Christian Psychology. Not because I want to be a Psychologist, but because I want to be more effective in my ministry, which doesn’t revolve around the building my church meets in, it revolves around every person I meet, every place I go. I am the church!
Thanks to all of you for your obvious passion for ministry and the great feedback!
Excellent blog iMonk!
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idea,
Have the kids in your youth group do an interchange with families from an intercity church.
A friend of mine who grew up on welfare in the intercity (none of us kids had the same dad) went to a farm family every summer for a week. She saw a different way of life and wanted something more for her own life. She is now a college grad, married with a husband and two kids and is a successful business women.
One of my suburban friends has a son who spent several weekends with an intercity family in a high school exchange program and is now a seminary student after serving the homeless for two years after college.
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tomcottar,
I am completely wrong or I don’t live in the Western,USAmerican culture that breeds a Christianity unlike that of the New Testment. My experience is not all white (besides interracial,what about the black church?) American(lots of immigrants brought Christainity to this land and continue to come) or Republican. Although we don’t discuss politics (It’s a church,duh) I would say many Christians are Democrates. How about intercity churches that serve the poor? Or rural churches? Get out there. It’s a big country.
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Michael,
I am completely wrong. As a longtime youth pastor (20+ years!) I’ve seen trends come/go. As fishers of men, the ‘hook’ of student ministry changes every 5 years or so…ski trips for a season, skateparks for a while, etc. What I’ve seen as ‘successful discipleship’ (never discounting the work of the Holy Spirit) involves ministering to the family as a whole (the father in particular), involvement in cross-generational ministry and discipleship (from Children’s Ministry to Senior Adults), a healthy,dependable small group, and active service in ongoing missions/evangelism. (Can you tell I’m a recovering SBC’er?).
Of course there are always exceptions.
IMHO, we don’t live in an either/or world. Small groups praying OR 120 to a concert? Ski trips OR local apartment ministry? We HAVE to do it all. Simultaneously we have to do a ‘mission trip’ to Laguna Beach AND get our hands dirty in our local town. We have to teach parents that they have the primary responsibility for spiritual formation (Dt. 6) AND desperately reach out to students with unbelieving parents via concerts, skate parks and other ‘fluff’.
The problem is bigger than youth ministry. Our entire Western, USAmerican culture breeds a Christianity unlike that of the new testment. In the south (again, my experience), the problem is that we are disciples of the white, American, Republican, SUV and 401k Jesus that confuses Christianity with the good life of suburbia….(….must….resist….rant………..).
Following Jesus (as a teenager, pre-teen, senior adult, etc…) is about a lifestyle of holiness and slavery (to Christ and to serving others). It’s been a LONG journey that got us into the current dysfunction we are in…it will take us a couple of generations to get back, IMO. But I could be wrong.
The right model is not about homeschool/public school/private school. or whatever. It’s about a subversive, ‘on the go’ tribe of disciples doing life together intimately. If so, how do we do that?
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Cindy,
You said “Our days jobs aren’t more important (in fact they’re not as important) but they’re more demanding.”
I’d disagree with you. We’re all a part of evangelism, paid or otherwise. I work a day job 40-60 hours a week and my interactions may well be influential in bringing someone to Christ just as much as the paid ministry worker. In fact, I bet I come into contact with more people throughout the week who do not know Jesus than a paid ministry worker, unless he’s with an outreach group like Young Life or something similar.
And as for demanding… I drive a computer and plan projects most of the day. Very little of what I do has to do with really listening to someone’s heart and hurts and all that. Now, when we have friends into our home, I don’t get paid for that like a paid professional ministry worker, but the relationships… that’s “thorns and thistles”. Hard stuff. And I have a passion to do it better. And help others to do the same.
But, yeah. I digress and I risk a mod edit…
So, a topic question. Do most youth groups replace Sunday morning church? I.e. if the kids go to youth group, do they forego the Sunday assembly, basically getting their own, high-energy worship time?
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Everry post should include someone who says I am completely wrong. Otherwise, I’m completely wrong.
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Cindy…
If you want to argue with the monk…. better be careful. Make sure you have all your facts checked, done your homework, say your prayers and ask the Lord for a bit of good luck! 🙂
Otherwise if the monk is not in the mood, you’re at risk of being banned.
God bless
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My own youth group experience (and that of my oldest son, so far) had little to do with entertainment. It was a small scale thing. The fact is though, these kids aren’t living 100 years ago. To be a teenager in our culture (for better or worse) isn’t the same as it was in generations past.
I’d also argue with iMonk that how we did youth group produced modern day evangelicalism. I think it’s the other way around.
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“I don’t necessarily expect 13 year olds to be serious disciples. I think they need interaction that meets them where they are and takes them higher — not interaction that supposes they have the maturity and cognitive function of people 10 years their senior. They just don’t.”
While there’s a big difference between a 13 year old and a 20 year old for several decades in the US we’ve been shielding the under 20s from more and more of adult life. This is bad. They turn 18, 20, 22 whatever and are expected to act like an adult with absolutely no experience as to what that means.
Somehow in the last 100 years we’ve gone from it not being unusual for a 5 year old to drive a small tractor and a 12 year old to drive an 18′ flat bed truck to talking about how do we entertain college aged “kids” to keep them coming back to church. Something is wrong.
And contrary to what some alarmists would say many of these “farm” kids led a much safer life in their teens than the 20 somethings who grew up entertained until 20 or so.
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“My daughters just donated their 10+ inches of hair (each of them) to Locks of Love.”
Maybe someone should send this information to that hard-rocking, mic-swallowing young man on the cover of the Cornerstone flier! (From the other thread.)
(If they want my hair, they’ll have to pluck it from my ears.)
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As a parent (my oldest is 13) I — first of all — hope my son’s involvement in our Youth Group enriches and strengthens his faith in Christ. I was involved in hiring our current youth pastor. I was impressed when we found him, but am even moreso now, after watching him in action over the past 6 months. I am also pleased by my son’s reaction to him and youth group. Our youth group isn’t flashy. It is Christ centered, with a service component, and is also fun. Our youth team obviously and truly loves the kids in their charge and I think love is the crucial ingredient in any worthwhile youth group.
That said, my expectations for their influence on my son’s spiritual growth are tempered by what I know of this stage of life. Teenagers are growing in every conceivable way — physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, sexually, intellectually. Scripture promises that God’s word will not return to Him void. I don’t necessarily expect 13 year olds to be serious disciples. I think they need interaction that meets them where they are and takes them higher — not interaction that supposes they have the maturity and cognitive function of people 10 years their senior. They just don’t.
I have more mundane hopes for my son’s experience at youth group, too. I want him to develop a group of Christian friends his age. He has lots of Christian adults in his life, but that’s not enough for a teenager. I want him to have somewhere else to go besides home, where he will be comfortable being his full self — so not just the good student and athlete, funny cut-up he is. I want him to have a place where being open about his love for Christ is as comfortable as being open about his love for the Red Sox and chocolate. I know what a relief it was for me to have Christian friends and a place where that part of my life was normalized.
I agree that parents have more influence than any youth group worker, but something about your comment turns me sour. I have, over the years, heard a lot of people who earn their livings in Christian service (pastors, church workers, etc.) say similar things. The fact is, most parents I know have jobs outside the home AND outside the church, and most parents I know in my church are also very involved in different aspsects of Christian service (according to their gifts). What you’re doing (or were doing) as your day job, the rest of us have 40-60 hours less a week to do. Our days jobs aren’t more important (in fact they’re not as important) but they’re more demanding.
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I don’t think the main problem with youth ministry is that it’s so entertainment-oriented, although that is DEFINITELY a problem. I think the main problem with it is that evangelical Christian culture presents kids with false ideas about how the world is, and once they hit their twenties and have some life experience behind them, they realize the lifestyle restrictions they were taught in youth group really don’t make as much sense as they thought.
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I didn’t read through all the comments, but I wanted add my 2c based on my experiences in youth group 15 or so years ago. When I started going to the church in 9th grade, I hated the place I had been previously going. I mostly went to this new one because two or three of my school buddies were going and I wanted to be with my friends. This church didn’t have a youth group when we started there. It mostly formed because a handful of teenage friends (us) were now attending.
The long and the short of the program was that it was pretty irrelevant. What mattered was the friends there. We came because of each other and we wanted to be there because of each other. In fact, several of us ended up bringing our families to the church rather than our families taking us to church. One of us saw several family members come to Christ. Post high-school, we helped run the youth gig for the next generation. Eventually all of us became deacons in that church and helped run various ministries in it.
But that never happened for succeeding generations. Ours was the only one. And I think that’s because you can’t force kids to form community. You can’t force kids to be excited about God and his people. For my friends and I, our pre-existing “community of faith” made for a successful youth group once we plugged into a larger one. Later generations were dragged into it in an almost formulamaic way.
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Michael said:
“The Biblical model for youth ministry is parenthood.”
iMonk replied:
“I don’t think Jesus would see that quite the way we do. Mark 3. The movement Jesus is starting isn’t Focus on the Family.”
I assume you refer to Jesus saying that “whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother”.
I’m puzzled about how that negates or conflicts with what Michael said about parenthood and youth ministry.
God also saw fit to throw in Proverbs 22:6. “Train up a child in the way he should go, and even when he is old he will not depart from it” (ESV). Off the top of my head I cannot think of any other similar promise for any other method of raising a child – the goal of which should be for them to be a part of the movement to which you refer.
My wife and I have kept an intentional distance between our children and youth groups exactly because we have observed the tendency for it to be little more than a church acceptable counter culture organization. Worse is the additional observation that three quarters of the time when they graduate youth group it seeems to represent a simultaneous graduation from church and all too often from following Jesus. I can recall this from when I was in the youth group 35 years ago and it appears the same or worse now.
It seems like there is too much these days in youth groups (and frankly in church itself) which does little more than innoculate the hearers against ever having a genuine relationship with Jesus or feeling the need for one. It seems good enough to just feel good about it. Doing something takes too much energy.
Guess I’m cynical.
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Charlie.hr, thanks for the note. I am committed to working hard (and it is hard) to not pull people out of the Sunday morning gatherings just for the sake of the family / housechurch setting. I do tell people around us what we’re doing and why and, if they are interested, we continue the dialogue. Several invitations have gone out, mostly to younger single people – yes, those who have often been overlooked by many of the folks in the church.
There are actually 4 single folks that we’re aware of who have left the congregation we all attended – and are still in the area. One is going to an SBC church about 50 minutes away. Two are not going anywhere. And one is looking for new venues.
And another family that we’re closer to (and they us) seems to be in a similar boat, not with the travel, but their kids don’t go to the midweek kids’ program with the other kids (pre-youth) from the church we all attended.
My daughters just donated their 10+ inches of hair (each of them) to Locks of Love. They haven’t decided if they’re going to regrow it or not and do it again. But this was a huge thing for an 8 and 7 year old and I’m very proud of their courage and sacrifice in this.
My wife and I hosted Young Singles gatherings – all social/fellowship based in our home for 2 years. The point was that there were already men’s and women’s bible studies at the church and integrated Sunday School discussions as well. God’s called us out of that as well, though we made several decent friends through it. And yes, the trips, concerts, and major activities for the youth were funded through a paid-pastor youth program. There was no “budget” (communicating the importance?) for the Young Singles…
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My wife and I were youth leaders for about 8 years. I started in my mid-20s and had never done anything like that before. And our elders just kind of left us alone. Therein lies the issue. Today, I would never sign up for the same job under that kind of scenario.
Youth groups(and I don’t really even like that term) or small groups or “whatever” groups cannot be seen as a stand alone “program” within a church. They have to flow from the mission and vision of the church and be a natural part of what’s happening in the body. Youth programs should be accenting what is already happening within a church and within individual families(ideally speaking – i know family situations differ).
AND, the youth leader/minister should have mentors of his own.
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Derek…
God Bless You! It certainly can feel lonely when you decide to walk the narrow path. But the results will last. Investing in your children’s whole life (not just education or spirituality) will bring the joy of producing faith champions for the age to come, where some of the things we take for granted (like the things we see on conventional religion) will come to pass and a new breed of followers of Jesus will arise. Not attached, to programs, sermons or activities, but living transforming lives through an indwelling Lord Jesus Christ.
My family and I have recently take the same path you’re on. And we’re challenging some other young couples to do so. We now have a small community of like-minded families that gather eventually to support each other, share experiences and enjoy the presence of Jesus in our lives…
I believe that’s what the real church is all about, and it’s difficult to grasp for anyone that its not understanding this kind of church-life.
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What you win them with, is what you win them to.
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Your post strikes on a lot of thoughts that have been running around in my head. A lot of what passes for youth ministry is no more than well-intentioned entertainment. I don’t see a problem with some of the things that are done in youth ministry (or other ministries) as long as they serve a solid, intentional purpose. I’m afraid many don’t and, as a result, our Christians don’t end up looking like their Jesus (Ghandi?). Where is the radical call to love, look, and live like Jesus? The irony is that it shouldn’t be “radical,” it should be normal.
Francis Chan’s book “Crazy Love” talks about some of these same ideas for the church as a whole. The implications of living this out church-wide could/should be drastically biblical.
Is part of the issue our denominational paradigm and how we understand the Bible? Our cultural apathy? Just living it out?
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Having been involved in youth work for the last few years I’ve had to wrestle with the youth work that I grew up in. I think youth work is really difficult but it’s easy for it to be overlooked by a church and given minimal attention simply because a youth leader can be relegated to the position of a babysitter for teenagers. I have two points:
i) I strongly believe in the concept of discipleship (often one on one). My heartfelt desire would be to see every teenager being ‘mentored’ by a more mature Christian in the congregation. I’ve never seen it implemented but I long to see youth work go from the youth workers responsibility to a responsibility that is shared by the whole church body.
ii) In m experience I have realised that youth work can be little more than imparting information in a classroom environment. The teenagers end up knowing all the right answers but there is little desire to follow Jesus. One idea I have been looking at is working through one of the gospels and actually trying to follow Jesus e.g. organising a party where the people invited will never be able to return the favour. Sometimes, the young people need to actually see the impact of following Jesus.
They’re just a few of my thoughts.
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P.S., loved your comment: “I don’t think Jesus would see that quite the way we do. Mark 3. The movement Jesus is starting isn’t Focus on the Family.”
But also, I disagree in a way. Jesus simply brings a very different focus (outward-looking, unselfish) on a VERY different understanding of family.
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As for making youth ministry “biblical” two main thoughts come to mind: 1) Paul’s description of the body and its many members. Often we set up youth ministry as if to say that youth ministry doesn’t really need any contact with the rest of the church (ICor 12, e.g.) Church programs, particularly evangelical ones imho, already tend to atomize the church into what are already natural cliques: college/career, men’s groups, women’s groups, seniors, MOPS, singles, divorced, etc. rather than working to bring the church together. To my mind we need to aim to cross over these “Jew/Greek” divides, not constantly reinforce them.
2) If we are to be church, then we are to be about the work of the kingdom (e.g., Matt 25). I’ve found that young people are often quite eager to pitch in with these ministries because it makes them feel like honored, full-fledged members of the Body, and not like some sort of overgrown toddlers that need to be babysat. Is there a high-schooler or college-age student on your church council/elder board? If not, why not? (Again see ICor 12). Kingdom work is serious stuff and young people pick up on that quickly if it’s already an authentic part of the work of the rest of the Body–and maybe are even more attune to the needs of the world than the rest of us. Created “mission trips” (of varying quality and legitimacy) are by their nature only episodic and usually have “fun” as a major draw. Does that mean we should never have fun? Of course not! Does it mean that the work of the kingdom only/always revolves around fun? No, I don’t think so. The church will always run a poor second (or third or fourth) as a cultural amusement park. People eventually realize this and get their kicks elsewhere.
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So forgive me, I’m an old guy (46). I was a Young Life Leader for 6 years. I was a Youth Director in a Presbyterian Church (PCUSA) for 3 Years. I was burned out, cynical and pissed-off for about 10 years. I am now on my churches (PCUSA) “Youth Oversight Committee” we call ourselves the YOCs (we pronounce it YUCKS). We oversee the staff and volunteers and provide vision and training.
I’m just a normal Joe, not a budding Theologian like some.
Youth Ministry should be done my Jesus Followers ( I’ll use your lexicon), seeking to work along side the Holy Spirit, helping to produce more Jesus Followers. To me that means to seek to walk with God 24/7. To seek the marginal and disenfranchised (kids comes to mind). To spread grace around like butter. To look people in the eye. To listen to their stories. To speak truth as best you understand it into their lives. As far as this Joe knows, that’s what following Jesus around will likely find me (us) doing.
So that’s Youth Ministry. It’s not 120 kids having fun or 12 kids praying. It’s not youth events or multi-generational events. It’s one life, sharing itself with another life. It’s two separate stories becoming one new story.
It’s really not complicated. It happens in fun times and serious times, while we laugh together or cry together, as we celebrate or as we mourn.
“Either/Or” always creates sides and losers. I don’t think its what we do with kids that matters, it’s what we teach them. I know guys who did the 12 person prayer groups, and their disciples never grew. I know guys who were always having fun (perhaps substitute joyful) and their kids have grown to follow Jesus in service all over the world.
Seek people – not programs. Use programs/events to seek people – don’t use people to fill programs–any program, whether it’s a prayer group or a trip to the beach/mountains.
I’ve been talking (debating) Youth Ministry for 30 years. And what I’m about to say has been a constant — “some of us need to lighten-up,” fun isn’t a four-letter word. Let’s remember that the Pharisees were very serious people.
Thanks for listening. It’s my first time commenting on a blog.
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I remember being totally annoyed with youth group as a teenager. If I wanted to have fun, church wouldn’t be my first choice. I actually wanted to learn about Jesus. Sad to say, I did go to one particular youth group because of the boys, though.
Many young people don’t understand that not everything in life is fun and if something is not fun, it can still be satisfying and enjoyable. Even trying to make school fun leaves a graduate student in a rude awakening. Writing papers isn’t fun at all.
Frankly, I’m sick to death of being entertained.
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I got into full time youth ministry through the back door (i have a Fine Arts degree, but my current title is Youth Pastor) about a year and a half ago.
I’ve recently been reading Mark DeVries (Sustainable Youth Ministry and Family Based Youth Ministry) and there are a couple things that have really hit home with me.
1) Exciting awesome youth programs often become orphaning structures, meaning once you’re too old they kick you out and many of those kids can’t find a place in “big church” because it’s not as exciting and focused on their needs and preferences as youth group was.
2) Each recent generation of youth has had less contact with adults than the one before, we’ve given them the “privilege of being left alone.” Mature Christian teenagers often never become mature Christian adults because they don’t have a significant relationship with any and they don’t know what it looks like or how to reach it.
So the purpose of youth ministry shouldn’t be on getting kids to come to a program or even “good teaching”, but as an excuse for teenagers to develop healthy relationships with mature Christian adults who care about their spiritual well-being. It’s absolutely true that the family is the primary vehicle of youth ministry and when a family isn’t up to that task the church and youth ministry become family as best it can to those students.
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I have no suggestions, and immense sympathy for anyone toiling in youth ministry, because between the ages of fourteen and nineteen, church is boring. At that age, everything is boring.
I suppose the only thing to do is give them a solid foundation, try to avoid the “I don’t want to go and you can’t make me!” rows about Sunday morning worship, and be there for them as a constant presence and example.
But if anyone can figure out how to make teenagers like going to school/going to church/eating their greens/all the other boring stuff you have to do when learning life skills, you will be a millionaire and Nobel Prize recipient, no bother.
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Several things,
“Michael
The Biblical model for youth ministry is parenthood.”
I understand your comment Imonk, but I think a lot of youth ministry is just parents wanting someone to do it for them. The same thing I see as far as education goes as a school-teacher.
Second,
I think you understood my question perfectly Imonk, and you answered it perfectly. Frankly a lot of your answer sort of gave me a kick in the gut. I can see similar stresses on my family in our situation.
Last,
I wish I could come to some sort of middle ground myself, I find myself waffling between “There has to be some sort of solid organizational structure with real teeth” i.e. episcopal governance, to “it’s all wrong and very un-first century and home church is the way to go”
oh well
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A few years ago I decided to scrap youth ministry as I know it and start over because statistics tell us that most teens leave the church after high school (when we stop entertaining them?). The following outline was what I came up with, but I was never allowed to implement it. I post it here in hopes that others may find it useful, or want to refine/attack/discuss it.
Youth Ministry should be focused in five areas.
1. First and foremost youth ministry should be about equipping Christian parents to train their children up in the Lord. (Duet. 6 gives parents the mandate to teach their children making that their first ministry, Eph. 4 gives the church the purpose of equipping the saints for ministry)
a. Parenting classes – Training from the Word. An in-depth biblical study of the parenting process. Not a how-to book, but a job description.
b. How to teach your children the Word of God – 2Tim. 3:16-17, as well as Christ’s example of parables, visual aids.
c. Limited family counseling – leading families to repentance and reconciliation.
d. How to build teaching your children into every aspect of your life (based Duet 6).
e. Resources for Parents to teach/discuss the Bible with their teens.
i. Table Talks. – Discussion questions through books of the bible.
ii. In-depth book of the Bible studies.
iii. Family Devotional resources.
iv. Discussion question bulletin inserts from Sunday’s Studies with a daily scripture reading and discussion questions as well as a weekly memory verse.
f. Family Based home fellowships that are for the whole family regardless of age. If children become a distraction they will be disciplined (trained), and then returned to the study.
2. Second youth ministry should be reaching out to teens who are not saved or Christian teens who are not from Christian families for the purpose of salvation and discipleship (Matt. 28:19-20).
a. Evangelism should be focused outside the Church! (duh!)
b. Teens who don’t have families that are training them in the Lord should be “adopted†by other families on Sunday/Wednesday, and these families will become responsible for the discipleship of this teen and reaching out to their unsaved family.
3. Third youth ministry should be about mentoring Christian teens into adult Christian life. Older Women training young women, and older men training young men. (Tit. 2:3-8)
a. Two separate ministries must exist for this. Young women’s, and young men’s.
i. These will teach how to be a woman/man of God.
ii. Practical things like cooking, sewing, car repair, and home repair.
iii. In a perfect world Mens and Womens ministries will have this as a focus.
4. A class of Biblical Basics should be offered to all teens (Jr. High and up). Look at our statement of faith and make it a Bible class.
5. Direct youth to the awesome teaching already occurring on Sunday and Wednesday (instead of separating them from the larger church body during these crucial times).
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I think the ´standard´ model of youth ministry is the funnel approach (get the kids in through entertainment, they are then funnelled down to evangelism, then they convert and become discipled. I believe this flawed and honestly is a waste of a youth minister’s time and the church´s money.
It also produces a false dichotomy between what is Christian and what is fun.
You have the one group that is:
a) characterised by fun, activities and a ´God spot´
and then you have the other group that is:
b)has a Bible study basis
Unwittingly is sends the message to young people that the Christian stuff is boring and the only way they will engage with the gospel and God´s Word is to package it in things that have nothing to do with what it means to be a Christian group.
What I have tried to do is run a youth program where the young people have a group that is Christian and has fun at the same time. Furthermore, the ´fun´ they have is Christian.
The reason I say that the church is wasting its money is that the funnel method long term does not work. Sure some young people do become Christians, but that is inspite of the program not because of it.
If we base our programs on entertainment (be it games or rock bands), we are using deception instead of the power of the gospel. The front door or entry level to the Christian faith mustn´t be an enjoyable time or a safe social environment. Rather, it must be built on the call to follow Jesus and a call to join the people of God (2 Cor. 4:1-5, 10:4-5 and 1 Thess. 2:3-6). We don´t need deceptive entertainment to do this. Rather, we must show them Jesus, clearly and truthfully (Rom. 1:16-17).
The message of Jesus can be distilled down to a message of “Come to Me.” He´s the bread of the world, the living water, the resurrection and life, the gate, the good shepherd, the light, etc. The Bible tells us that Jesus is attractive enough without fancy programming. We must offer him to the world on his terms, not through clever nights out or flashy entertainment. Trying to entertain hides the true source of attraction—Jesus.
I am not saying that youth ministers or youth workers are deliberately doing this. We all want to see young people put their faith and trust in the person of the Lord Jesus; but the funnel (fun and games approach) is theologically dissonant from their aims.
For example, Chad-The youth minister is driven by his theology. He is keen to follow the Great Commission of Jesus and see young people turn to Christ in repentance and faith. He is also eager to honor God in what we do. In addition to this, he wants to run communities of faith characterized by holiness and love so what does he do?
He runs a prgram where the kids play games such as; ´bum charades´, followed by ´chubby bunny´, a skate comp, then a band with the smoke machine going off! Followed by a 5 minute gospel talk at the end.
His program is not matching his theology.
Most groups have bought the lie that, to be an effective youth group, you must put on a night of entertainment so that the local young people will come, have a truckload of fun, hear a short message from the Bible, and then maybe come back next week for more. For many people, the local youth group is nothing more than a glorified coffee shop—a place to hang around, have a fun time, come back next week, and start all over. That is, until you move on to better, more fulfilling entertainment.
My conclusion?
It´s Deceptive.
It Hides the Real Source.
It Distorts the Call.
It´s Hard to Keep Up.
If you´ve ever tried to run a youth group along these lines, you´ll find that it can be very difficult to keep at it. The average shelf life of a leader these days appears to be under 18 months. In my opinion, this is because the desperate need to provide entertainment becomes too much. Most youth leaders lose momentum and burn out along the way.
My two cents worth.
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I am a homeschooler and also have serious reservations about the family integrated church model that’s being pushed in some circles (including our state’s Christian homeschooling organization). I feel comfortable with what our church has been doing to help parents take a more active role in the youth ministry, though I suppose it is still church led rather than family led. Once a month, parents are invited to participate with their kids in the youth church, and the weekly take-home papers (which are done in house) encourage parents to get involved and reinforce the lesson covered. This year they’re trying a family VBS on several evenings in which families work as a team through the various stations, beginning with a shared meal. Several of the families in our church are attending missions trips together this summer (including a local multi-day mission project), and there are lots of outreach opportunities both locally and internationally that families can do together.
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“How about theology pub? Oh…sorry….”
Don’t be. I’ll be there with a dozen or so friends. When and where? (Well the where has to be somewhat nearby.)
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How about theology pub? Oh…sorry….
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Some personal opinions here.
I grew up in an SBC traditional church in the 60s. Founded by my grandfather back in 08 I think. (I’m not THAT old. Kids at 40 and all that.) I recently left a very different SBC church after 17 years of my kids growing up in it. So I’ve seen a few things. (It just took me way too long to figure out the wrongness of much of it.)
How our churches deal with youth has more to do with the current culture of the US than anything in the Bible. The Bible is just the bag the meal is packed inside of and often discarded to get to the meal.
Keeping the youth wanting to come keeps the parents coming. (See a zillion or so iMonk posts on SBC numbers.)
The “segregation” of youth in our culture really got going in the 20s and 30s. Look up Dewey of the decimal system fame for how he and his associates wanted to totally change society with a new approach to raising and schooling kids. I.E. keep them kids till nearly 20 and the teachers can mold them into whatever they want. He was very successful in his goals and the church went (and still is) along for the ride.
So now we have parents shopping for churches based on the “kids programs” and whether or not the kids will go to church without a fight. NOT on whether the church will help them grow in to mature adults who follow Christ.
My 2 late teens kids have figured it out for the most part and are fed up with kids programs that don’t prepare them to be adults. But it took us not handing them money, cars, paid for college, etc… to open their eyes to the real world and realize how shallow much of what they had been taught in church really was.
And these trends are perpetuated in the “singles” and “college” ministries. Lets keep them coming with ski trips, parties, whatever and toss in a Bible verse or two.
And I’ve come to dread getting older. Why can’t us 50 somethings go to a church outing that’s fun? Why is it our age group seems to organize sewing circles while the younger folks are going to a midnight showing of Star Trek at the local IMAX. (Actually my small group does things like this but the churches as a whole seem to be oblivious.)
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BTW, to Charlie.hr, we’re homechurching because (for over 50% of 2008) I was on the road throughout the week and I felt led to do more with that 25% of my weekend than sit in a pew disengaged from my wife and kids. God really convicted me to be more involved AND to be the leader in my home.
Despite being accused of leaving the church. And yes, it’s a lonely existence. Not that the rest of the world is all wicked, but I feel like Noah. But without sons. And with daughters instead. 🙂
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Michael, I love this post. Someone said to me a few months ago that, for most of church history, there were no separations of children, youth, career singles, college singles, young marrieds, mature marrieds, senior saints and divorce care – that these labels and groups are pretty much a new thing in the history of Christendom.
My kids are homeschooled for reasons that are not relevant to the discussion, but suffice to say that, at 8 and 7, aside from some speech difficulty in the little one, they do very well in conversing and relating to adults, both in larger group settings and smaller group settings, and with a variety of people. We want them to be able to function as adults and learn to communicate with adults. So, why would we want them to limit their faith-based interactions (aren’t all interactions where a Christian is participating considered “faith-based”?) and relationships to those with other children?
We also housechurch. Currently, it’s just the four of us and we enjoy time and meals and fun with other families and folks who bless our home with their presence. But, Sunday mornings, it’s just us and Jesus. More interactive than a standard sermon (with coloring books for the kids) and one that’s completely engaging for the kids and us. And I can make sure that my kids are getting something from our time together.
I’ve often wondered at the short term mission trips to beaches and the “invitational” evangelism associated with bringing high school friends to stadium events. Of course, I often wonder why we “do” missions differently outside the political boundaries of the US than down the street. I think your concept of taking the Appalachian youth to inner cities and whatnot is the way to go. My family is always looking at opportunities locally to serve Christ by serving the community.
And I can’t help but wonder how successful youth discipleship is when many of us grown adults have no idea what discipleship is either.
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Lutherans have a two year confirmation program. After that instruction a young person affirms their Baptisimal vows. Taking on those vows as an adult member of the Church.
It use to be said that when a family’s last child was confirmed the family was done. And many times it wasn’t only the kid that was gone. Until of course they married and had a kid to bring to church.
I hope things have changed and we are now retaining not only the kid but the family. Why make a vow to live amoung God’s people, hear His Word and share in His supper and proclaim the good news, to serve all poeple, follow the example of Jesus and strive for justice and peace if you weren’t going to come to church again til marriage and children?
So I hope we are doing better but traditions die hard.
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As organizations, they basically are attempts to replace the church. They are church made age appropriate. Church without all the church issues.
Often effective with relational evangelism and basic discipleship. How they connect to Jesus, the larger church, the local church, the overall mission? Varies from leader to leader I expect.
As parachurches go, I’m a fan of several college ministries, esp RUF and IVCF.
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IMonk, what is your take on the influence the parachurch youth organizations (like Youth for Christ, etc) have had on the current youth ministry problems within the church?
My husband and I were heavily involved in a local parachurch youth group in our area in the 70’s-80’s, (both financially & he was on their board) and now see many of the same methods are being used in local churches.
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The “successful” youth group of which I was part back in ancient times ended up sending a large number of people into what has become life-long discipleship and vocational ministry. Oh yeah, and the youth pastor got fired, too. In short order.
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I don’t understand the question really. I led my family to follow Christ. They all do. They were obviously affected by two things:
1) My decision 17 years ago to work for a Baptist school
2) The lack of church options we experienced here, esp after I left the supply ministry I had at a PCUSA church for 12 years.
My family loved the little PCUSA church. It was too small for programs. The emphasis was on Christ and family. None of my kids were part of a youth group. But they were part of a large, very revivalistic Baptist school, and that had an effect on both my children, on my wife, and on me.
I can get emotional over this, but to be here and reach the Gospel has been very hard for the rest of our Christian experience. A lot of cost for a lot of opportunity.
God called me to the opportunity and we all agree it is what God wanted. But this was not the best place to experience whatever Baptists are all about. Appalachia. No church choices. Living in a cultural time machine that’s 40 years in the past. Yesterday I preached with 4 American flags in the sanctuary.
And it’s been tough being around fundamentalists. There are people who won’t eat with me because I’mm not a Ken Hamm creationist. I’ve been castigated as a Calvinist and I’m not one. I’ve tried to balance all the controversies in Baptist life and gotten no credit and a lot of blame.
My family got what was good in our experience and now, as adults in these empty nest years, they’ve gone to the Anglican church and the RCC. (My daughter and Son-in-law will be confirmed in the AMiA next week.)
And I’m still preaching. We all love Jesus. We never disagree. We all understand the journey. And I respect all of them for following Jesus not following me.
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Imonk said
:My entire family has abandoned evangelicalism for the Anglican/Catholic church”
Imonk can I ask a question from a very hosest place being a father and husband myself with two very small boys. And please don’t take offense to the questin b/c the very act of me asking it implies that there is somethign “wrong” with where your family has ended up. That’s not my intentions.
But…
Looking back, what kind of advice can you give us young husbands and fathers about what type of environment we should be putting our families in?
Austin
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I don’t think Jesus would see that quite the way we do. Mark 3. The movement Jesus is starting isn’t Focus on the Family.
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The Biblical model for youth ministry is parenthood. 😉
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It isn’t just youth ministry. We spend so much time and effort trying to come up with new ways of doing things, then making them “Biblical” as an afterthought. Instead, we’d be better off starting with the Bible, letting it point us to Jesus, and following his way. So many of our obnoxious programs would get flushed down the toilet real quick. (I cringe to think how much of my favorite “ministry” would be on the chopping block.) How much of it comes down to “love God, love others” or “be a disciple, make disciples?”
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The declining numbers of the mainline churches and the loss of members in the RCC (offset by additions from Hispanics) would indicate that nothing any church does makes much difference.
The idea that Christianity produces a second generation is an old covenant promise misapplied. I have serious doubts that we can listen to Jesus and have any real assurance that the next generation of the faith is coming automatically. Everyone for all generations of church history have this problem. Muslims are about to have it.
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Imonk,
You have a lot more experience than I do with other denoms, do other groups that have a more cathecismic/confirmation process and not so much a experiental process see the same loss of youth as we do as Baptist?
I’ve had a sneaky suspicion that the way we do “salvation” with the one time event not followed up by much discipleship may not be as healthy as the confirmation process you see in say an Anglican or Presbyterian church.
I should add I have zero experience with that process. So I’d love to hear from some folks.
Austin
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Who has the bigger group of people who in no way plan on seriously following Jesus, but think the church is fun?
Life is too short people. Go make some Jesus followers and give up on that stuff.
This actually applies to every age group, every demographic. I’ll be attending a funeral this Thursday of a good friend lost to breast cancer.
Life is indeed short.
Greg R
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Church-wise, we are bit on the unusual side in our family. As a family, we are involved in an evangelical church-in-homes endeavor. They also have cell groups and high-school homechurches, but we have found them to be geographically challenging and somewhat sporadic in nature.
Our eldest son, when he was in 7th grade, sought out a “youth group” situation in a local Lutheran church. We’re not Lutheran, but at his request, we met with the youth pastors and felt that this was just fine, if that’s what he wanted to do. Being the evangelical snob that I am sometimes (ashamedly), I expected nothing much to come of it.
I could not have been more wrong. The youth pastors (a married, childless couple in their late 40s) are “sold out” (sorry, kind of hokey, but it’s the only term that totally fits) to Jesus and have been huge, positive influences in the lives of all three of our sons now.
Actually, they rarely do anything “fun. They serve, evangelize, serve, evangelize, and then serve some more. In the course of all of that serving and evangelizing, they are building up a generation of young people committed to God.
Moreover, these youth pastors are committed to building leadership into these kids. They coach the kids about how to relate to others (non-Christians included) until they are completely comfortable in doing so. Every kid that is under their mentoring for long can accomplish the dreaded public speaking task. They don’t engage in the “culture war” (they never even address where they stand politically), but rather, seek to equip young people with the tools for discernment and wisdom so they can seek these answers for themselves.
I don’t know if these folks would be able to give anyone a formula on how this is all done. I think much of it just flows from their personal love for Jesus and others and their commitment to the same.
All I really know is that we are truly thankful.
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Eric R: We never had them and they never had Jesus, but we are still counting them as part of our megachurch stats and part of the evangelical myth. I did an interview on Issues, etc last week and the guy I followed was a pro-megachurch apologist. He never saw a person in a seat at a meagchurch that wasn’t an evangelical Christian. It’s incredible how stupid weve become on what it means to be a Christian. If you literally come to a menu of activities and say sometime that you’d rather go to heaven than hell, you’re good. Good grief.
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Amen, IM!
I’ve been involved with youth ministry for almost 17 years now. I’ve tried every single model out there, from strict conservative youth services, to seeker sensitive, and emergent entertainment. The result…
SPIRITUAL FRUSTRATION!
Don’t get me wrong. For years I’ve been known as a successful youth minister (based on the premise that I can pull off any trick from the youth ministry hat), but when I see the lives of many kids (now some of them grown up by now) so screwed, or at least with no passion for Jesus, it makes me wonder and rethink everything I’m doing.
I’d discover recently that the problem lies in that we are trying to accommodate a mid-eastern book cultured book (the bible) to a western mindset and work-frame. We try to proof-text every thing we do and hope it will work. But I’ve learned the hard-way that that is not the way to go.
I’m convinced that the bible (in its cultural and historical setting) addresses what we call youth, as adults most of the time. You see Jesus interacting whit kids or adults. You assume that some of those kids or adults are youth but there is no pattern to search or follow.
God’s will for spiritual formation is that parents should take care of their kids. I understand that church can help to make a difference in the case of broken families or non-christian parents. But when I see christian parents that try to delegate their spiritual responsibility to the church, thats when I see a perfect storm coming, cause you know that the outcome wont be good for the kid, and for you as a youth minister.
I’m done with christian entertainment. Am I a boring youth minister now? I bet you anything I’m not! But as IM rightly points out…
“The shift from getting 120 kids to a concert to getting 12 kids to pray every morning is huge, and most churches won’t put up with it.”
I’m in that road now.
Jesus didn’t walked around with 5.000 men all the time, giving them goodies and entertaining. He focused in the lives of the ones that will transform the world. That’s what I look for in youth ministry now.
God bless…
P.S. (Hope didn’t said anything that can be banned this time)
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“Who has the bigger group of people who in no way plan on seriously following Jesus, but think the church is fun?”
We hear all the time about how 80% (or whatever the number is) of our kids are leaving the church and never coming back. I can’t help but think that a lot of that 80% were just along for fun. (Of course, some would follow Jesus if we did a better job of showing them how.) If it is the case that a bunch are just attracted to the fun and not Jesus, then we’re not “losing” them. You can’t lose what you never had.
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My mistake iMonk for coming out so harsh. I admit that I do have a tendency to do that when I’m on this subject. For the record, I also misunderstood your post. Please forgive me. I do not mean to offend someone over this issue. I would never want to cause disunity amongst the body, especially when I’m speaking.
By the way, I love your posts. They’re pretty well thought out.
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One of the biggest success I had as a youth leader, I didn’t even get the title youth minister, is when I started a Sunday school class for three teen boys we had who did not have an age seperate class.
We did open and honest bible lessons and became good friends. Today, all three are in their mid twenties, still in church, ivolved in their churches, one is a a minister, and two are engaged to very nice girls.
I really took them under my wing, and not bragging, I am more satisfied with the results I got there as far as overall than I am with almost anything else I did as a youth leader.
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Who has the bigger group of people who in no way plan on seriously following Jesus, but think the church is fun?
Life is too short people. Go make some Jesus followers and give up on that stuff.
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Imonk,
I think a lot of this is that we have missed the cross-generational connections that used to exist. In fact, Peggy Noonan spoke of it Sunday on This Week. We have now, more individual generations alive at the same time than ever, but they are less connected. Now I am starting to see it in reverse. Now almost all churches have Senior groups much like the youth groups. I look for this to get worse as the narcisistic boomers continue to age.
I have a very small church, but it has a fairly wide span of age folks, with it obviuosly being heavy towards the end.
Here are some things I have done and we have done at our church that have been good.
1. Everyone is invited to everything. I’m sure my older members don’t want to go whitewater rafting, but if they wanted to then they are welcome to go. A few older folks actually went and just rode with us. Glad to have them. Likewise we took some tweens and teens to our Leaf-peepeing trip to the apple festival with our mostly older seniors.
2. All “youth activities” are not fun. We need to have fun, but we also need work and put plastic over the elderly’s windows, or make and deliver fruit baskets to our widows, or put together school supply bags and hand them out at a local high poverty mobile home park.
3. Do shadow Sundays, or what folks have been calling for years “youth sunday’s” let them learn by doing, but also let them be involved every Sunday, I let some of my middle and high school kids that want to, read the first sripture passage of the day during the service, I call on them to pray, they lead songs when called upon.
4. I really almost cried one day when I realized that on our ushers we had our oldest male member, a real cremudgeon, and one of our newest converts, a 14 year old I baptized.
Lastly, a real peeve, of mine is how some of my (I know the are not mine) are poached by the big churches down the road offering all expense paid “mission trips” that just happen to be at Panama City Beach, or Daytona. Hmmm?
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There are more posts coming.
I need to say this loudly: Getting kids involved in the church is usually a long way from getting them involved with Jesus. Jesus’ methods of discipleship were almost entirely “on the run” and “on the mission.” Acclimating kids to like the religious institution and the strokes they get there is often the enemy of following Jesus.
Real Youth ministry is SUBVERSIVE on a lot of levels, including of the churches that engage in it.
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I like the line about 120 kids to a concert vs 12 kids praying. It actually reminds me of my old youth group; there was a lot of good times, but just not much teaching.
Along that line, I might a #6 to your list on how many youth groups today talk about Christianity simply from a moral standpoint; that is, they discuss religion simply as the source of morality. You should love others and love God. Of course, this is a vital part of the Gospel, but without the teaching of the rest of the Scriptures it just doesn’t work to edify any real believers you might get.
I wrote a blog a week or so ago concerning the difference between evangelizing and edifying in the pulpit – it was originally about the adult church, but it should apply to youth ministry as well, if you’re interested here’s the link:
http://christspeak.com/2009/06/17/evangelism-edification-pulpit/
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Michael,
Until a year ago, I worked in youth ministry in some capacity for about 10 years. By the end, I found that I was so frustrated with what passed for discipleship among youth that I burned out. I am know longer a youth minister, and I haven’t been this content in years.
Part of the problem that I ran into toward the end was parental insecurity. The parents wanted to know that their kids were safe, protected from “bad” kids, and didn’t put up too much of a fight when it came time to go to church. I also found that while youth were expected to take mission trips, do service projects, and evangelize, most of their parents did none of these things. Parents have more influence than most youth workers will ever have, and hypocrisy speaks loudly.
As to #5, given my above frustrations I’ve given some consideration to family-oriented youth ministry but keep running into three issues: 1) The “too busy” parent, 2) the “it’s your job” parent, or 3) the controlling parent who creates the “dependent, controlled, tied to parents, afraid of the world inhabitants of a ghetto mentality” within their children. My personal thought is that again, the controlling parent is still reacting out of their own insecurity and fear.
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outreach meaning evangeliizing. We do a lot of giving outreach and service
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imonk,
Somethings we do very well. I think this is one of them.
What we don’t do well is outreach.
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Also adults form relationship with kids through intergen activities. Somethimes it becomes a mentoring situation as the kid grows up. Allows older adults to share knowlegde with youth. Kids who don’t have stable homes feel included and part of the church family.
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Your church consistently sounds great.
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#2. My current congregation as well as the one before it use an intergenerational approach to everything the church does. That doesn’t mean we don’t have ‘kids stuff’ but it is thought through an intergen. eye. Worship all together. Giving kids worship resources for their age to use during the service. Kids on the altar : ie, acolyte, reader, crucifer.
Logos: A kids program on Wednesday evening. Worship: older kid leaders, Meal with Adult table leaders. Service, secret grandparents, kids service to community and church.
Adult confirmation guides.
People come up with great ideas once they start thinking this way. Family retreat. Intergen. play. Combo kids and adult chior. It can be endless.
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I too think the popular adjective of Biblical can sell us short. I could follow a whole pursuit of some ‘Biblical’ way of doing something and if it is not rooted in Jesus Christ and His new covenant it does not matter how many Bible scriptures I can quote to make my case. The Bible is not our Pope; Jesus Christ is our High Priest. the Bible is our handbook and God’s word but not our LORD. Jesus Christ makes His work — the post-Biblical act of redemptive human history — biblical. “Biblical” churches and programs are not necessarily rooted in Him by virtue of an attempt to be “Biblical”. I’m not saying there should not be Bible respect and a pursuit to be grounded in the Bible. But religious tradition can inform and stymie what we emphasize from the Bible while we may skip out on what the Spirit may be convicting us to do in the here and now.
Kudos for the incessant drum beat to get Christians to pursue Christ-centeredness, even if it takes more syllables to say and has a meaning not as easily assumed as the word “Biblical.”
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I’m a college student and with Hunter on this. I actually fled my youth group my junior year of highschool for the adult classes at my church. It was a good call.
I was also homeschooled and I couldn’t agree with you more that homseschooling is not for everyone. But there are some very zealous homeschool parents out there that don’t understand that.
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Hunter: I don’t want this to become a critical discussion of homeschoolers. You may be painting with a very broad brush. I think it’s safe to say that relating to unbelievers rightly is a problem we all have. Many homeschoolers aren’t in that ghetto I referred to.
My main concern isn’t with homeschooling: it’s with the fact that many families can’t homeschool and many Christians feel they should be in the public schools or other private schools.
OK ALL: Not a homeschool post. It’s a youth ministry post. Respond to what I said but please don’t generalize.
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I love numbers 4 and 5. I’m 17 and have known for a while that most kids were there for fun. I’m there for Jesus. Most kids are there for Jesus, but it has to be fun or with friends while doing it. Most kids wouldn’t do it if there wasn’t any fun.
Also, for number 5, my youth ministry (which is about close to 750 on a normal Sunday [also SBC]) is about half homeschooled. They have no idea to engage culture to be salt and light. They never talk to nonbelievers. I know that homeschooling is right for some people (see Vodie Bachum’s [sp?] son). But, for the most part, in my opinion, I think that homeschooling is taken too far of shielding people from the world. We should definitely be shielded, but there is such a thing as too shielded.
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