There is and should be much discussion of Derek Webb’s new album, Stockholm Syndrome. For example, read Denny Burk’s take here, or if you are intrepid, the BHT discussion that occurred yesterday, primarily between Jared Wilson and myself.
If you haven’t heard the edgy and controversial “What Matters More,” you can hear it at Youtube. I heard that Campolo riff on comparative shock over profanity or starvation years ago, but in today’s atmosphere of prissy piety, it’s needed more than ever. Applause from me.
Derek Webb has followed a fascinating trajectory as an artist, from his days with Caedmon’s Call (including a recent contribution to their excellent last album) to worship music on various collaborations to his more prophetic, political and even strident creations on his four solo albums. Those Calvinists who were elated with Webb’s ability to actually sing about the TULIP several years ago are now being served up in-your-face portrayals of Christian bigotry and hypocrisy, especially about the treatment of gays and support for the culture war. (NOTE: I’m not saying Calvinists are bigots. If I said “Christians,” it would be accurate, but it was Calvinists who were fawning over Webb early on.)
Webb has succeeded in being that most interesting of Christian artists: one too hot for Christian radio. The arrival of mild profanity in the current album continues envelope pushing that started when Christian radio refused to play Wedding Dress and its Augustinian description of the church as a whore.
I love Webb. I consider him immensely talented. His current work is ground-breaking and I hope millions of young Christians listen to it and identify with it. But I have some thoughts.
I saw Webb live several years ago on the Mockingbird tour. He was genuinely entertaining. Today, even though I’m a fan, I’d think twice or more about whether I wanted to sit through an evening of Stockholm Syndrome. Not for a lack of creativity or artistic talent. Far from it. And not just because I’m not a fan of electronic music.
I’m just not sure I want to be pummeled by the law- and the truth about the church and culture- for an hour or two. And make no mistake about it, on the “law-Gospel” continuum, this is law and prophetic denunciation, delivered with relentless consistency. No one else is saying this stuff and Webb doesn’t miss his punches. His pleasant voice betrays his very unpleasant message. We are a captive church that is now identifying with the values of our cultural captors, and it’s not pretty. Our treatment of the gay community provides a painful example.
But our discussion at the BHT yesterday wound up talking about how we missed Rich Mullins, an artist who could have written many of the same songs, but who would have put “Hold Me Jesus” in there as a Gospel antidote to the law’s condemnation. Even on an artistic level, Mullins would have found a way to draw you in through the beauty to be found in the brokenness. If the Jesus Record was any indication, it would have been Christ centered repentance for our foolishness.
I wrestle with this in my own writing and preaching. I notice these kinds of failures of the church, but grace and the Gospel don’t register with me as naturally. Grace is there, but I’m very insensitive. But the failures of Christians and Americans? I can see them easily. My ease in spotting those issues has some risk, however; risk that I hope Webb is considering on his artistic journey.
Webb is following the way of Jeremiah and the prophets. There is no real good news here. He knows the Gospel and has skillfully delivered it before, but what’s moving his artistic soul these days are issues of faithfulness, love, compassion and mercy. To be specific, the absence of them. You can fault him for not providing a larger context- I don’t, by the way- but you can’t fault him for failing to stand by an issue until you see the stark nature of the church’s failure to be like Christ. Those of you who greet any criticism of the church with a chorus of spin about how wonderful the church is may want to stay away from Webb right now.
Christ’s presence in Webb’s recent work is more “slant” than direct. These issues demand a transformation of people like us by the spirit of Jesus. The contrast between the failures Webb sings about and the compassion of Christ is large and unavoidable, even if he chooses to make it a “Jesus shaped void” that reminds us of our need of Christ. I don’t judge Webb by the standard of “He should be singing about the Gospel” as Burk does. I do see that if you are going to use the law, at some point you must use the Gospel, otherwise, what results will be a response to guilt and pain, not to love, grace and God.
Webb’s reformed theology fan club may never forgive him for sounding more like Jim Wallis than John Calvin, but that’s been Webb’s road. If you can ever find the interview where he talks about Caedmon’s being dragged to a “Prayer of Jabez” themed show by their label, you’ll understand a little bit of what turned Webb into a critic of evangelicals. As a fellow pilgrim in the evangelical wilderness, I get it. But I’m not happy about it. And I don’t want to stay here.
Webb is an artist, and I respect his freedom to create and I encourage you to get and listen to Stockholm Syndrome. As a Christian, I want to give Webb all the artistic room possible, and my soul needs to be jolted as much as anyone. But I’d like to pray that Webb has a Lutheran turn in the near future, and finds that speaking of law and Gospel, prophetic intensity and Christ’s love are things that can go together in art and must go together in life.
The Internet Monk Archives 
A true case of “Stockholm Syndrome” would have included the victim feeling something other than contempt for the bottom-feeding-artist who turns their pain into his profit.
LikeLike
Zach, I would say it’s both- Freddie is from the perspective of Jesus to Fred Phelps.
And to anyone who wants them, Stockholm Syndrome lyrics were put up over here- http://drakenjosh.blogspot.com/2009/07/stockholm-syndrom-lyrics.html
LikeLike
Ok, so somebody said Freddie was written from the perspective of Jesus to a follower, while someone else said it may be written about Fred Phelps. I guess I’m confusedthe most by the line ” you know you’re just a queer” or something along those lines. I love the new cd, but I can’t figure that song out
LikeLike
Excellent review, Michael!
LikeLike
Just got to this, Michael. You’ll be surprised to see I disagree with you about part of it.
You said:
[QUOTE]
I’m just not sure I want to be pummeled by the law- and the truth about the church and culture- for an hour or two. And make no mistake about it, on the “law-Gospel†continuum, this is law and prophetic denunciation, delivered with relentless consistency. No one else is saying this stuff and Webb doesn’t miss his punches.
[/QUOTE]
No one else is saying that it turns out that we’re sinners judging others by a law we can’t ourselves uphold? I think the difference between Webb and the others who are saying this is that the others saying it aren’t just reproaching “conservatives” — they are also reproaching all the stripes of over-realized eschatology, all manner of phariseeism on the left and the right.
It seems to me Derek Webb is in his Calvinist adolscence, and he’s enjoying it. Don’t we all?
LikeLike
I personally have been a fan of Derek Webb for a long time as well. I think his art is to speak from a “prophet on the mountain top”. I think we have enough music out there to stroke our need to hear about grace. Heck,we even have enough to ego stroke us. I see Derek Webb as one to shake all that up. It is as though he is saying, “ok, guys, we talk about grace, but where is it?” I don’t think he comes off as having the full answers, but as someone coming from the question and I appreciate him for it.
His latest work is very abstract in nature and I think that is on purpose. If you have watched the video that came with some of the tiers I think that is clear.
I think what gets people’s backs up is that he holds up a mirror that contrasts what someone says and what they really do. Example: “If I could tell what’s in your heart by what comes out of your mouth
Then it sure looks to me like being straight is all it’s about”
Pretty forward and true. Even “Freddie Please”, although focused towards Fred Phelps is very upfront.
I don’t know. I just accept the art Derek offers. I love that I have to think about what he is saying and it isn’t fluffy. I have enough of fluff over the years.
Peace
LikeLike
RP – Sure, Jimmy has not so subtle ulterior motives in the song, but I don’t think the song is leading to that kind of inescapable conclusion. Even the most die hard Joshua Harris fan, when being truly honest, has to admit to times of sensual attraction where they wished their date would just stop going on and on about their passions and lean in for a kiss. I don’t know what about the song leads you to the conclusions you came to – maybe the drinking? I guess I say it’s fun because of a) the sound, and b) the fact that he’s exploring the common thoughts of a young guy and girl without feeling the compulsion to turn it into a heavy handed morality lesson.
Philip Winn – Thanks! You just completely decoded “Freddie, Please” for me. Now I feel stupid 🙂
LikeLike
Yes, if you aren’t a Puritan preacher, your art is in trouble in many quarters. There’s a reason Calvin whitewashed churches. — IMonk
Just like how the Wahabi whitewashed the mosques?
Because this is Derek’s vocation was well as his ministry. If you want artists to be able to write, record and perform music for you to listen to, somewhere along the line someone has to pay something so they can eat and provide for their families. Otherwise, they have to devote full time to getting a different job that does not allow for the creative process as much. — Ragamuffin
Just like “Information Yearns To Be FREEEEEEEE! (TM)”?
(i.e. “Why doncha just upload all your music/art/novels to your website so I can download it all for FREEEEEEEEEEEEEE?”)
Or “It’s a MINISTRY (TM)”?
I just got back from visting my writing partner in rural PA. He’s pastoring two churches and trying to support a wife and three sons on minimum wage. (“It’s a MINISTRY…”) PART-TIME minimum wage. (they count each church as half-time, therefore he’s only “part-time” and can be paid as such.) He has turned the lot around his parsonage into a subsistence farm so he and his family can eat, and tells me stories about pastors’ widows in his denomination routinely eating out of dumpsters.
(That doesn’t mention the job offers he checks out that in the secular world would command six figures but upon further investigation are “Must Provide Own Support — It’s a MINISTRY”.)
In other words, I think Derek was talking about the Church’s overemphasis on emotions in worship. WHICH IS A MESSAGE THAT ALL OF THE CALVINISTS WILL SUPPORT!! — Brandon T Milan
Only if they were predestined to do so before the foundation of the world, Brandon.
The local Christian radio station here in our town has DJ’s who sound like they are always smiling, 24/7, and the music that they play just seems fluffy to me. — Cey
Make that “SMIIIIIIILING” a la Joel Osteen (blink blink).
You are right that there are a lot of really talented Christian artists out there, but they aren’t getting the air time and it is frustrating. — Cey
It isn’t just artists. I’m a writer, sick and tired of competing against the likes of Eragon, Twilight, and Left Behind. CELEBRITY (TM) Best Sellers or vanity press selling out of your car trunk, nothing in between.
I mean, I am sorry but something is wrong when the songs being played on Christian radio sound just like Brittany Spears or the Jonas Brothers. — Cey
Make that “Just like Brittney Spears, except CHRISTIAN (TM)!”
As a side-note, I *hate* the label of “Christian music†and resolutely have avoided any marketed, even the John Michael Talbot that my sister loved *mumblemumble* years back. Because it seems to be either the mushy, God loves us all and it’s all rainbows and puppies stuff, or bad imitations of the trends that were popular just before the current popular trend. — Martha
Martha, there’s a saying that you know when a business fad is about to crash and burn when Harvard starts graduating MBAs majoring in that particular fad.
Just like you know a trend has jumped the shark when the “Just like that trend, but CHRISTIAN (TM)!” knockoffs start hitting the shelves and airwaves in Christian Bizarro World.
Derek Webb is only a controversial because…
1. The Church as We Know It considered Derek as one of their one, a “real christian†who is now on the verge of straying.
2. The Church as We Know It as no clue as to the real controversial musicians (who openly identify themselves as following Jesus, but do not promote their music as Christian, though some of it is). — Leslie
“It’s The End of the Church As We Know It
And I feel fine…”
— How IMonk could filk REM
LikeLike
So, iMonk, you do have time at Cornerstone to see some of the old guys play, huh? (Lost Dogs, 77’s, etc.) I’m going to a Michael Roe house concert in Stillwater, MN on July 31. This will be the 3rd time I’ve seen him, first time was a “Roe vs Pritzl” concert, then saw him with the 77’s on their Holy Ghost Building tour. He is a great musician and I’m looking forward to it. Thanks for the great writing.
LikeLike
There are ways of communicating the gospel without using the J-word, which I know is offensive to some people. Victor Hugo, Dostoevsky, etc. All gospel as far as I’m concerned.
LikeLike
I’m hearing a lot of the same things about Webb’s new album. Not enough gospel. I don’t have any fuss with it. Webb once criticized Christian music by saying that fans judge the quality of the music by how many ‘Jesus’s per minute’ there are. That’s what these reviews sound like to me. If gospel is what you want put on a blind fold, walk into a lifeway store and arbitrarily choose a cd to purchase, you’ll get the life death and resurrection of Jesus. It usually goes verse: life, chorus: death, bridge: resurrection. And by the way, his cd is only 7.99. The Ringing Bell was given away free as well. Derek Webb is a very special artist. He doesn’t pay well known song writers to craft his cd’s. He’s going to speak his heart, and we’re all going to listen, cause no-one else is brave enough to do what he does.
LikeLike
I know I’m old, but I don’t know any of the names here except Rich Mullens.
LikeLike
RP said: “I have mixed feelings about his choice of language, and even more for the fact that he heavily marketed the controversy surrounding the language. I can understand why he did it for the shock value, and understand about the Campolo quote, but I keep thinking about a saying I once heard about comedians: the good ones don’t need to cuss.”
Totally agree with you here about him playing up the “controversy”. I’m not really bothered by the language and think he makes a good point, but in the marketing he’s trying way to hard to be “controversial” to attract attention. He’s written some really good songs in the past, but people who go out of their way for negative attention just turn me off. If it’s really controversial, you don’t have to keep saying it, other people will do that for you.
LikeLike
@MK and others re CM: I tend to find a good mix of music on the Bored Again Christian podcast.
LikeLike
The gospel would have been nice to hear. yes. The message of Stockholm Syndrome may resonate more with people who are surrounded by the type of Christian culture that Webb has a problem with and feel the need to rebel against it. But to those of us who live mostly in a secular context, and are thus made aware of the shortcomings of “fundies” on a fairly regular basis, this message is pretty underwhelming.
The world is broken in so many ways. Many of us, even in the midst of an economic downturn, are still using up this planet’s dwindling resources to spend ourselves into a blissful oblivion. Is the root of this really an unhealthy preoccupation with homosexuality on the part of religious republicans in the United States? If Fred Phelps stops his repulsive behavior tomorrow will that lead to a solution for world hunger (as if he would listen anyway)? This whole thing seems like a diversion to me. I bought the album because I wanted to be lead to the feet of Christ, and I know Derek has the artistic potential to do this. I’ve personally not been able to find that in this album. Perhaps it wasn’t written for me.
LikeLike
I had not heard of DW before this post. I don’t listen to “christian” music. I tend to look for where God is in any art form.
I have to say though I am a fan now. We can discuss law and grace, or whatever, but most Christians (across the spectrum)would rather sit in a comfortable pew, here nice sounds about God’s love etc. They have either forgotten or choose to ignore that Love is a verb. It requires action. And for the anti-gay christians I would suggest that they spend a lot of study on how Christ dealt with lepers. That was the “aids” of His day. Can we respond any differently today?
LikeLike
Andrew, Thank you SO MUCH for posting your link! It’s good to have everyone hear from Derek’s own mouth that he knows that our righteousness comes only from Christ and His works, never our own.
LikeLike
Michael, Thank you so much for posting this. I remember Derek mentioning that his new album would be a techno album about Fred Phelps which would get him kicked out the of the singer-songwriter category. I haven’t gotten it yet, but I can’t wait. As to several people asking for Christian musicians who don’t get any, or enough, airplay, may I suggest:
Phil Keaggy (one of the best guitarists ever!)
Sarah Groves (minor key is essential to her music)
Aradhna (great world music/Indian sound)
Over The Rhine (prophetic and just plain cool)
Psalters (very world music and prophetic)
Michael Card (best lyricist out there)
Josh Garrels (great new artist and prophetic)
You’ll see different styles among these artists. Some of them will be more “prophetic”, some will be more “come to Jesus”. But they all get both. And Derek most definitely belongs in that camp. My intro to Derek was because of his theological insight in his lyrics (I Repent), which, ironically, had both in one song.
And as to a nasally voice, I love Bob Dylan’s new album! So there!
LikeLike
This might be of interest to folks reading the comment stream but Webb was at a Blood Water Benefit Concert here in the DFW Metroplex tonight (with Haseltine, Joy Williams, Christopher Williams and Bethany Dillan) and he gave a very encouraging reminder of the Grace of Christ in saving us and how Christ’s love frees us to love others. Good stuff. The video is linked below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ8bmYYjj1Q
LikeLike
Derek Webb is only a controversial because…
1. The Church as We Know It considered Derek as one of their one, a “real christian” who is now on the verge of straying.
2. The Church as We Know It as no clue as to the real controversial musicians (who openly identify themselves as following Jesus, but do not promote their music as Christian, though some of it is).
Compared to the likes of Hansi Kürsch, Dave Mustaine, the White Metal scene, Christian Death Metal bands, These Five Down, and a whole host of other guys who are really out there on the edge, Derek Webb is a super conservative, talented, upstanding, not at all edgy guy who writes great music that politely tickles what he thinks is wrong with the Church.
Interwebs, I’m here to tell you that Webb is quite tame and that he represents quite a reasonable, level-headed end of the spectrum of musicians who claim Christ.
But edgy? Please, you’re making yourselves look silly. The lines being discussed here were crossed years ago, many times. The only thing new is that this time it happens to be in an “accepted Christian genre”.
I promise you that the people who need to hear the Gospel from people like Derek Webb think that the word Jesus is a thousand times more controversial then the word sh*t. If you don’t believe that, its time for you to venture out into the world a bit more and see what’s really going on.
LikeLike
Steve said: “The most offensive statements all day:
1. Stryper’s “Yellow and Black Attackâ€â€¦ just the mention of it…”
That’s almost as funny as my mother’s going over the sheet music of their ballad “Honestly” ca. 1988 for a wedding she was playing for and making the following comment on the group photo on its cover: “I didn’t realize there were girls in Stryper!”
Many thanks to the CCM recommendations of Martha, Ragamuffin and sd smith as well.
LikeLike
kcillini77,
Why do you feel Jena and Jimmy is a fun song? It’s a nice beat I’ll admit, but the lyrics seem to speak about a guy taking advantage of girl at bar, presumably to lead her to bed or potentially even worse (ie. date rape).
LikeLike
I’m glad you wrote on this. I’ve been listening to the CD for two days now and my feelings are mixed. A few of my thoughts.
1) I am not a fan of electronic music either which means I probably will not listen to this CD much in the future. Webb has a great voice and you just can’t hear it on this album. This is a shame though because there is so much to hear and be challenged by in the lyrics. Mockingbird, which is also a challenging record is a much better style for his voice.
2) I have mixed feelings about his choice of language, and even more for the fact that he heavily marketed the controversy surrounding the language. I can understand why he did it for the shock value, and understand about the Campolo quote, but I keep thinking about a saying I once heard about comedians: the good ones don’t need to cuss.
3) The argument laid out in “What Matters More” is the same one that the media has been throwing at Christians for years, specifically the idea that we care more about what goes on in people’s bedrooms than we do feeding the poor. Not that it isn’t a valid point worthy of discussion, it just isn’t as groundbreaking as the marketing of the album lets on.
4) In the final analysis though I listen to Webb’s music not to have my views reinforced and to feel good about them, but to have them challenged. This album does exactly that and he does it in a way that no one else in music does. For that alone I am thankful for what he did on this album.
LikeLike
Wow, DW is an enigma. I have mixed feelings.
As to good CM out there. I recommend Andrew Peterson and Eric Peters. You can check them out at the Rabbit Room. Dot com. http://www.rabbitroom.com
LikeLike
Sara Groves is excellent. Another good source is PatrolMag.com. And NoiseTrade.com
LikeLike
Okay, having just said I run away from anything labelled Christian music, here’s something I did like.
Recommended via Julie of “Happy Catholic”, Sarah Groves “Jeremiah, Tell me ’bout the Fire”:
http://www.glyphnet.com/jeremiah/JeremiahLarge.html
LikeLike
Oh, I wasn’t hopping off you, Michael 🙂
It’s just that some comments (and I’m not naming any names here because I’m not interested in offending any particular person) give the impression that if he’s not singing ‘happy-clappy’, then he’s gone straight from Grace to Law, and I don’t necessarily think that’s the case for musicians such as this guy, who have moved on from “Yay, marvellous!” to “Hey, what are all you whited sepulchres doing, huh?”
As a side-note, I *hate* the label of “Christian music” and resolutely have avoided any marketed, even the John Michael Talbot that my sister loved *mumblemumble* years back. Because it seems to be either the mushy, God loves us all and it’s all rainbows and puppies stuff, or bad imitations of the trends that were popular just before the current popular trend.
If you pin me to the wall, I’ll say that for me, a better example of ‘Christian’ music (if we absolutely have to have rock’n’roll) is Depeche Mode’s “Personal Jesus”, even though that’s a totally secular song by a secular group not one bit interested in pushing any particular denomination or Bible reading or religious interpretation, but reacting to one view of Christianity as peddled by the televangelists.
And yeah – really showing my age here, hmmm? Marilyn Manson cover my eye – the original is the best! 😉
LikeLike
The most offensive statements all day:
1. Stryper’s “Yellow and Black Attack”… just the mention of it…
2. To whoever said Bruce Cockburn makes you want to go out and shoot yourself: hey, that’s one more seat for me at the concert venue!
LikeLike
Alan Cross said> “Where do you find the great Christian music like you’re laking about. I turned off my radio some time ago and never listen to CCM. I used to like modern worship music, but most of that is commercial now to. Where do you turn?”
Thanks for asking my question, and to iMonk for some solid recommendations and his review of Webb’s album. (Stryper’s “Yellow and Black Attack” seems like a very long time ago for some of us thirtysomethings — but probably not long enough ago…)
And this post seems about as good as anywhere else for a non-Calvinist like me to say:
Happy 500th Birthday today, John Calvin!
LikeLike
@kcillini77, I think “Freddie, Please” is written from the perspective of Jesus, actually, though it puzzled me the first listen or two as well. Here’s the key:
/ The stone’s been rolled away / but you’re picketing my grave / for loving the things you hate. /
I think he’s singing as Jesus when he says, “/ How could you tell them you love me / when you hate me? /”
LikeLike
I don’t use “Christian” as much of a category.
Cornerstone Bands
Relevant Magazine
Paste Magazine
Steve McCoy recommendations
Old guys with no record label anymore: Terry Taylor, Mike Roe, etc.
LikeLike
Michael,
Yeah, I’d like to know too. Where do you find the great Christian music like you’re laking about. I turned off my radio some time ago and never listen to CCM. I used to like modern worship music, but most of that is commercial now to. Where do you turn?
LikeLike
Mk,
I great place to start for looking for hidden gyms of CM is The Square Peg Alliance.
LikeLike
What I see Webb doing here is essentially getting into the same ground that ‘Pedro the Lion’ has been in for the past decade or two, but with a different sound, and slightly less cynical perspective.
Though I have to say I probably like PtL’s style better. Still can’t listen to it often, as it’s really depressing. *grin*
I think that another important aspect of this is that many modern artists are not thinking in terms of “will this please my audience” but “is this true to me”. Artists like Alannis Morrisette and Fiona Apple talk about how they won’t even listen to other artists, so that nothing overlaps, and Bono of U2 is quite open about the fact that all of their albums come out of what interests them and what they want to say, not out of what they think will sell more albums.
Though they do.
The question is not “does Derek Webb please me?” but “Is he expressing a valid artistic view?”
As for the presence of the Gospel in his music…do his other albums express the Gospel? Yes? Then stop interpreting this album outside of context. All of his albums come from him, it’s simply no fair to judge any album only in terms of itself.
LikeLike
Thanks for the balanced review iMonk. Derek’s music is not really my style but I like it in moderation. And “Wedding Dress” is still one of my favorites. For 7.99 I may have to check out this one.
Mk : Try Square Peg Alliance for a start.
LikeLike
imonk,
Amen to the “corporate crap selling for CCM”.
The local Christian radio station here in our town has DJ’s who sound like they are always smiling, 24/7, and the music that they play just seems fluffy to me. They do play Rich Mullins occasionally, but only like two of his songs.
You are right that there are a lot of really talented Christian artists out there, but they aren’t getting the air time and it is frustrating.
I mean, I am sorry but something is wrong when the songs being played on Christian radio sound just like Brittany Spears or the Jonas Brothers.
LikeLike
Michael – Reading your discussion at BHT with Jared reminded me of a useful T.S. Eliot anecodte. Eliot was once doing a poetry reading somewhere in the midwest and at the end of the reading a woman stood up and asked him what one of his poems meant. Befuddled, Eliot looked at her and said, “you mean you want me to say it worse?”
Great post, by the way.
LikeLike
Here’s my view on it: yes. Yes, we need to distinguish law and gospel and not separate it, but we also must get better at loving. I see both sides (even though I know it’s not a battle, good v. evil, etc., etc.). Derek’s saying we must love better. IMonk has a valid point in saying that they are intermixed. Just my thoughts.
LikeLike
kcillini77 – I’ll listen, but I’ve not been a fan of his older music either so I’m not really expecting much.
Like I said, I appreciated Derek’s boldness (and I’m grateful that you’ve caught some playfulness too). We need that. Just not a fan musically – if it hits pandora radio I’ll make sure I listen to it.
LikeLike
Imonk: So where does one look to find the hidden gems of CM? There used to be a site called grassrootsmusic that had a lot of no name CM artists, but it got sucked up by Christianbook.com or something and now nothing’s for free. I honestly don’t know where to look (maybe Youtube?)
LikeLike
Aaron – the music definitely has a techno flavor throughout, but he hasn’t totally abandoned his roots either.
LikeLike
Brandon said: “Not that your interpretation there isn’t a good one… but I’m sure if that’s what Derek meant by “the spirit vs. the kick drum.†There was an interview that was done back when Caedmon’s released their worship album, In the Company of Angels, in which Cliff Young mentioned a story that Rich Mullins told them back before he died… he said that people would come up to him after concerts and say, “The Spirit really started moving during that song.†And Rich would respond, “No, that’s just the part where the bass and the kick drum comes in.â€
In other words, I think Derek was talking about the Church’s overemphasis on emotions in worship. WHICH IS A MESSAGE THAT ALL OF THE CALVINISTS WILL SUPPORT!!”
Thanks for that insight – you’re probably right. I probably looked past the obvious for deeper meaning. I was thinking that the kick drum just kind of “keeps the beat” rather than interjecting lots of excitement into music. And those of us who are hungry for book learnin’ tend to throw stones at the charismatics sometimes enough that we sometimes risk rejecting the Spirit entirely.
Regardless of the interpretation I think the song is important in that it speaks to our desire for substitutes rather than the real triune God we have.
LikeLike
Michael,
Great thoughts here. Law and gospel must be distinguished but never separated. I think you are exactly right about how Rich Mullins would have done it better.
Here’s my concern with Derek Webb’s trajectory. As one who has never really listened to him all that much (even when he was with Caedmon’s Call), I may be misrepresenting him here, so please let me know if I am way off. But here it goes:
Is Webb becoming one more Christian leader who is defining discipleship in terms of a leftist political agenda? Every time I hear someone talking about feeding the hungry or anything like that, this is what I have to ask:
What exactly are they proposing? Are they automatically assuming that if average church members had any real compassion, they would be sold out for Obama-type, big government, massive spending solutions to try to “make poverty history” (a hopelessly naive slogan popular a few years ago)?
Prophets are badly needed at all times. But I wish those prophets who call the church to repentance would do a better job distinguishing real repentance from left-wing ideology.
LikeLike
song i meant not sound
LikeLike
Does the whole album sound like this one sound?
LikeLike
MK: Get off the top 40 and the major labels. There’s a world of great CM that no station will ever play. Heck, the most talented people in the biz are practically selling music out of their cars. Don’t trust the corporate crap passing for CCM.
LikeLike
SOMETHING ELSE, that I think everyone who has commented on the song, anywhere, has missed:
The following line:
“denying all the dying of the remedy”
He’s clearly referring to those who have been hated for their sin (he’s clearly referring specifically to homosexuals). He’s calling them “the dying.” So whats the remedy? I’m pretty sure that Derek would clearly say that the gospel is the remedy.
Now, I know its not explicit, but the Gospel is there, even in this song.
But, this song is clearly directed toward those who already know and believe the Gospel:
“Cause if you really believed what you say you believe; you wouldn’t be so damn reckless with the words you speak”
If they really believe the Gospel and the love of Jesus towards sinners, then they wouldn’t be so quick to condemn sinners and, in turn, deny them the remedy, aka, the gospel…
Maybe I’m stretching it, but I don’t think so…
LikeLike
IM said “I haven’t read anyone on this thread offended by that song’s language.”
That’s a reflection of the type of readers you attract. : ) (I kid, I kid)
I take back my “whiny” comment above, it’s more nasal–that’s how I sound, so I don’t want to hear it in a song. Instrumentals are great, and the songs are hit or miss.
Like others, I think the Rich Mullins model (be sponsored by a church for your salary) would make Christian music more palatable for me, and today’s technology would make it more accessible.
But I do think there should be more convicting Christian music out there and less “I can Only Imagine” stuff.
LikeLike
kcillini7 said:
“I don’t want The Spirit I want the kick drumâ€
“I don’t want The Son I want a jury of peersâ€
“I don’t want The Father I want a vending machine†I think we can all see ourselves in at least one of these statements – most of us “intellectuals†probably identify most with the first – more interested in the steady beat of the kick drum (following a structured path) than following the Spirit.
Not that your interpretation there isn’t a good one… but I’m sure if that’s what Derek meant by “the spirit vs. the kick drum.” There was an interview that was done back when Caedmon’s released their worship album, In the Company of Angels, in which Cliff Young mentioned a story that Rich Mullins told them back before he died… he said that people would come up to him after concerts and say, “The Spirit really started moving during that song.” And Rich would respond, “No, that’s just the part where the bass and the kick drum comes in.”
In other words, I think Derek was talking about the Church’s overemphasis on emotions in worship. WHICH IS A MESSAGE THAT ALL OF THE CALVINISTS WILL SUPPORT!!
LikeLike
iMonk:
Thanks for the clarifications – I was misreading digs at Calvinism where I now see there were none intended. 🙂
LikeLike
I haven’t read anyone on this thread offended by that song’s language.
On Burk’s comment thread, you’ll find plenty of that.
LikeLike
Rich Mullins has spoiled me for a lot of what passes as “Christian Music” today. Some of his lyrics shake up the sentimental plastic Sunday School Jesus I grew up with, but his Jesus is always front and center and real…all the way to kingdom come. Jesus Record really was his testimony, and I listen to it often.
That said, I doubt if Rich would have been offended by Derek Webb’s “What Matters More”.
And I don’t know that Jesus is, either.
I think Jesus is more offended by a Church that ignores His commands in favor of communal and personal comfort–a people who refuse to go to dinner with publicans and sinners or love the broken.
LikeLike
Quote from wezlo: 2. Even the prophets could crack a joke every now and again, but I sometimes worry that Derek has lost some of the playfulness of the prophets at their best. It’s what made Steve Taylor so wonderful, as he leveled his aim you got the distinct sense that he was really aiming at himself. Derek is so intense that, even though is lyrics reveal his own self-aim, the presentation doesn’t seem to pull that off. See point one though – my troubles might only be because I don’t appreciate the style and so miss the nuances.
This is really an album you have to listen to in its entirety. If you think he’s lost how to have fun, give a listen to “Jena and Jimmy” – track 11 on the album. What a fun song!
I think a lot of talk has been devoted to “What Matters More” but by far the song that speaks strongest to me is “The Spirit vs. The Kick Drum”. The song basically boils down to this:
“I don’t want The Spirit I want the kick drum”
“I don’t want The Son I want a jury of peers”
“I don’t want The Father I want a vending machine” I think we can all see ourselves in at least one of these statements – most of us “intellectuals” probably identify most with the first – more interested in the steady beat of the kick drum (following a structured path) than following the Spirit.
There’s a lot of the old Derek on this album. There’s also a lot of stretching of the audience, both musically and in thought. Having listened to it a few times it is really growing on me and I think it is perhaps his best album to date, though I still love “The House Show.”
My biggest question on the album is about the song “Freddie, Please” which seems to be written from the perspective of a dead person singing to Fred Phelps. It seems to me that he gives Fred too much credit when he says “How can you say you love me when you hate me?” To the best of my knowledge Fred claims the people he pickets are enemies of God and he has no love for them. Am I wrong?
At any rate – please don’t base your opinions of this album on one song and don’t write it off because it has techno beats and you’re not a fan (I’m really not either). Get it, play it a few times, and give it a chance.
LikeLike
thank thank thank you for this post. i’ve been trying to say the same things at my site, and haven’t been able to articulate it as well you have here.
thanks.
LikeLike
I for an I on Ringing Bell. DW gets the law thing. No doubt.
LikeLike
What Webb is doing — pointing out faults in the church — isn’t wrong in itself. It depends on his motivation and presentation in how he does it.
The prophets and apostles all had harsh words to say to Israel / the Church at times — but implicit in their words was an earnest desire to see revival come from it. Except for when God delivered word of a final (and unalterable) judgment, these men were chastising in love for the people they served and sincerely hoping their audience would come back to the faith.
If Webb can say that is his motivation — and his lyrics support it — then I see nothing wrong with what he’s doing. I think I would advise against language, if possible, simply because of common perception against it (think “do not make your brother stumble” kind of principles), but that is more of a side note.
I wrote on the subject of how we ought to judge one another as Christians (and how not to) over here if anyone is interested:
http://christspeak.com/2009/06/27/place-judging/
LikeLike
And, BTW, Rich Mullins was amazing. I wasn’t as much a fan of some of his earlier stuff – too much of it seemed like it was being written for youth camp, but I understand that that is where CCM was back then. But, his Liturgy, Legacy, and Ragamuffin Band album was incredible.
And then, he wrote what I believe was the greatest CCM album of all time – The Jesus Record. Just the demos. I threw the other one with the over production and the other artists singing out. No, demos. Rich on a piano and guitar in an old church. It’s about 35 minutes long and I still listen to it often. Jesus is presented in His glory and his humanity so clearly.
Rich was just starting to come into his own. If he had lived, he would have really written some amazing songs, I feel. But, God had other plans.
LikeLike
One reason that I’m not a big fan of Christian music is that most of it is so lifeless. It all resolves so nicely and life isn’t like that – neither is God (yes, Don Miller influenced me there). Are we to believe that all of Webb’s critics don’t know the gospel? They don’t understand love and grace? No, they know it too well, likely well enough to take it for granted. I haven’t heard the album yet, but we need artists who awaken us to our own hypocrisies at times. Jesus surely did that. It seems that the state of our hearts are shown when we get upset at an artist for being prophetic instead of getting upset about what he is saying. Maybe Webb is totally over the top here and I need to shut up. But, we are so comfortable in our malaise that a little corrective seems to be justified.
LikeLike
Here’s my problems with Derek:
1. I love his lyrics, I really do. I read “What Matter’s More?” and was tickled that someone in the “Christian music biz” actually wrote it. Then I listened to the song and… well, I was just plain bored. That’s simply a matter of stylistic preference that exists in any artistic endeavor – the lyrics speak to me, the final product just doesn’t manage to do that. (I really tried to like Mockingbird stylistically, for example, but it never really grew on me).
2. Even the prophets could crack a joke every now and again, but I sometimes worry that Derek has lost some of the playfulness of the prophets at their best. It’s what made Steve Taylor so wonderful, as he leveled his aim you got the distinct sense that he was really aiming at himself. Derek is so intense that, even though is lyrics reveal his own self-aim, the presentation doesn’t seem to pull that off. See point one though – my troubles might only be because I don’t appreciate the style and so miss the nuances.
So, I appreciate Derek, but probably won’t but the “album” (in quotes because there really is no such thing anymore).
LikeLike
Robert:
That’s a good point. Some artists like Webb make their albums into a “whole” that can sound unbalanced by itself. It may require listening to the whole CD to see it in its context (rather like reading Romans, I guess)
LikeLike
Oh yes… Let him become Lutheran. We would be glad to have him. Come on Derek. Join us. 🙂
LikeLike
Yes, if you aren’t a Puritan preacher, your art is in trouble in many quarters. There’s a reason Calvin whitewashed churches.
LikeLike
Note to self: When iMonk links to another blog, don’t read the comments. Some of the comments on Burk’s post are much more offensive than a song with the s-word in it.
LikeLike
Ray A:
Good points, but I am a student of Merton. The Merton of 7 Storey Mountain is NOT the Merton of later writing. He evolved, and to cite his earlier work to supplement his later would be misrepresentation. I have no idea where DW is theologically, and I have every reason in his work to say he knows the Gospel well. I am just saying that the preponderance of law in the last 4 albums is a particular road, and a road with its own risks in presenting a distinctively Christian message.
LikeLike
I wonder if there is a shift here between what we mean by law? It seems to me that Webb is Holy angry at the lack of the Law – the Law of Love, that is. I have trouble separating the law of love from the gospel, and I imagine that Webb does too.
Maybe Webb sees his trajectory much like Isaiah. Isaiah goes as far as to say that God hates the way Israel worships because they lack care and concern for the downtrodden and oppressed. I can’t imagine expecting Webb to articulate all he has to say on the issue in one album. Looking at his work as a whole I see a beautiful story of redemption in his words but a time comes where one must stand opposed to religion if it diametrically opposes the heart of the Almighty God. My guess – we have a lot more to hear from Derek.
LikeLike
Martha:
I absolutely am not saying that, and just because I talk about law and Gospel doesn’t mean I agree with the Deny Burk summation. I don’t. Let DW say what he wants. But in the larger picture, law and Gospel need each other.
LikeLike
Wow, very thoughtful post. Let’s not forget, though, that Derek isn’t just pointing fingers at others. The album cover shows him with a black eye. He’s as much a captive as any of us, and he knows it. Only God’s grace can free him, and us, from that.
I think you’re right that Derek’s presentation of grace is subtle — but it’s not entirely absent. Take note of the last song on the album, “American Flag Umbrella,” in which he laments the heartache of this broken world and states, “It’ll all be okay in the end. If it’s not okay, then it’s not the end.”
Sure, that’s pretty oblique, and there’s no overt “Jesus loves you” statement here. But, to my ears, that concept informs this whole album.
LikeLike
Okay, here’s a question for ye all (and I’m not using Michael as the scapegoat; I want a response from the commentators): what exactly do you mean by “singing the Gospel”?
If you mean “Come on, guy, tell me Jesus has all that covered!” then perhaps – just perhaps – his message is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable?
Maybe this album is his Epistle of James?
“So speak and so act as people who will be judged by the law of freedom. For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.”
LikeLike
I have been a fan of Webb since the first Caedmon’s Call CD. (I have no problem with his admittedly “whiny vocals,” as I grew up listening to my parents’ folk music albums. Once you’ve heard Bob Dylan sing, you can handle anything.)
I think he’s sung enough about the grace of God over the years that questioning his commitment to it now seems a little foolish. It’s the equivalent of taking Matthew 23 out of the context of the rest of the Gospels and saying that Jesus abandoned the Good News that He’d been preaching for the previous three years (and would preach again afterward). Jesus’ statements in Matthew 23 were a specific message to specific people (the Pharisees). Stockholm Syndrome seems also to be a specific message to specific people (ditto).
As a friend of mine says, any text, taken out of context, is a pretext. I think that would apply to albums as well.
LikeLike
Yeah, I don’t buy it. The Emperor has no clothes.
How is Derek’s ‘message’ so very different from those who he criticizes? If the gospel is so veiled to be unintelligible and all we are left with is law, how is that so very different from the fundamentalists he seems to be railing against? And the fact is, as someone very mired in the evangelical world, I just don’t see what he is complaining about.
I just would love to hear why there is no message of gospel. Don’t get me wrong, I do not expect every song to say ‘Jesus’ ‘God’ or ‘gospel’ in them but when you are talking as a confessed Christian about the problems in the world and in the church and the gospel is veiled as a solution – I just would love to hear ‘why?â€.
For the same reason that huge sections of the prophets were completely depressing. Jeremiah, Lamentations, large portions of the Psalms. Sometimes people need to hear the hard truths and marinate on just that for a while. Don’t let yourself off the hook for a little while until you’ve really pondered the implications of the critique. Don’t always flee to the happy ending and wrap up the discomfort with a neat little bow.
Scripture says that there’s a time for everything under the sun including depressing things like “a time to weep, a time to mourn” and so on. There’s a time to just hear the hard stuff and be convicted by it. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that every album has to be a microcosm of the whole of Scripture. One album can be just like one book of the Bible…hard to read but necessary medicine.
LikeLike
Michael,
I have a theory that when the Lord took Rich from us he took Rich’s talents and gave them to Webb and Andrew Peterson. Webb got the intensity and “prophetic” talents of Mullins and Peterson got the poetic side. Interestingly, both seem to be better at their particular skill than Mullins was, but in many ways I don’t think either of them blend both sides together as well as Mullins did (they both have distinctively “interesting” voices like Mullins did as well).
As such, my belief is that to get the full effect of the skills and calling of Derek, you need to also listen to Peterson’s music (and vise versa). I guess if you put ’em together, you get Rich Mullins 2.0. 🙂
Regardless, Webb makes me uncomfortable and I’m ok with that. I remember him saying that “Wedding Dress” offended him, and he was ok with it. Harsh words are never comfortable, especially if they are true. Should Webb sing more songs about Grace and Love? Maybe, but considering that there is no one else singing what he does, and knowing that he understands the Grace of God pretty darn well, I honestly don’t mind him singing what he sings. God knows we need it.
LikeLike
I really enjoyed this post. Thank you for it.
I read the post on Denny Burk’s blog yesterday, and I read a lot of the responses, and I have to say that it broke my heart. A lot of attacking Derek Webb in a way that was neither edifying nor loving and a lot of judging a guy based on a song rather than actually talking to him and drawing conclusions there.
I actually talked to Derek before this album was officially released, I was one of a few lucky fans who ended up at his house. He told us that this album is a shield that he is using to put between culture and people he really loves and that it’s his most personal album yet. I take that to mean that he has really close friends or family who have been burned by Christians for their homosexuality and want nothing to do with Christ because of that. That breaks my heart. I respect Derek for his message and I honestly think this is his strongest release so far.
LikeLike
I loved Rich Mullins and miss him!
As to your point: I would absolutely agree with you, if Derek wasn’t the only one within Christian music circles saying and expressing this kind of stuff.
Really the only other ‘christian’ voice I can think of is Bruce Cockburn but he doesn’t have any CCM cred and I can’t sit down and listen to a whole album of his either without wanting to go out and shoot myself.
I’m ok with the album and with what he says, precisely because it serves as a corrective to all the pointless, frivolous CCM being produced today. Within that context this is stuff we need to hear and be challenged by.
LikeLike
Yeah, I don’t buy it. The Emperor has no clothes.
How is Derek’s ‘message’ so very different from those who he criticizes? If the gospel is so veiled to be unintelligible and all we are left with is law, how is that so very different from the fundamentalists he seems to be railing against? And the fact is, as someone very mired in the evangelical world, I just don’t see what he is complaining about.
I just would love to hear why there is no message of gospel. Don’t get me wrong, I do not expect every song to say ‘Jesus’ ‘God’ or ‘gospel’ in them but when you are talking as a confessed Christian about the problems in the world and in the church and the gospel is veiled as a solution – I just would love to hear ‘why?”.
I loved his first 2 albums – probably because the prophetic nature of the lyrics were mired in the acknowledgement that the problem is not “out there” first and foremost but laden inside of “us.”That was very refreshing and rung true.
Derek Webb, for all his genius and talent, is in danger of being known for what he is against.
LikeLike
Excellent analysis here. In listening to the song and reading the lyrics, I can only wonder who the target audience is for this song. As you say, it’s far more law than gospel, and the church (if that is his audience) needs the gospel to repent of culture wars, etc.. Jesus was plenty harsh, but always redemptive and restorative (sermon on the mount, anyone?). Some in our church is under significant conviction not disconnected from what Derek is saying, but where is the gospel to pick me back up? Hopefully in other songs on the album.
LikeLike
Content comment: I know folks that love his music, and rail on the church and how “out of touch†we are with society. Then try and get those same folks to volunteer to deliver a meal to a shut-in, or give a ride to a needy person.
If this is Derek’s ministry, why do I have to pay $16.99 to get his CD?
I guess all us finger-pointers have somebody pointing back at us.
Sorry, Michael, I’m just grumpy today.
Because this is Derek’s vocation was well as his ministry. If you want artists to be able to write, record and perform music for you to listen to, somewhere along the line someone has to pay something so they can eat and provide for their families. Otherwise, they have to devote full time to getting a different job that does not allow for the creative process as much.
Oh, and you can buy his CD directly from him for $7.99 and download it that day. For $13.99 (shipping included) you can download it now and when the physical CD releases, you’ll get two copies of it (one to give away). Not to mention, he gave away a free digital version of his album Mockingbird a couple of years ago for several months for the low, low price of helping him build an email list by providing your email and suggesting 3 friends who might also want to sign up for the list and get the free album.
So I hardly think the guy is charging outrageous prices and milking his audience.
I think the reason my previous post wasn’t showing up is that it contained a link.
LikeLike
Is moderation on? My post isn’t showing up.
LikeLike
MK: The association of Webb with people who won’t feed shut-ins has exactly what to do with Derek Webb?
And the CD is $7.99 🙂
AMY: I’m not understanding your comments about Calvinists unless you’ve made the misread of assuming I’m saying Calvinists are bigots, which I never said. I said the people who liked his songs about Calvinism are now getting stuff that is very different. No calling any denomination bigoted.
Also, Lutherans get law and grace right when they get it right. It was a nod, not saying no one else gets it right. (Boy….beware of mentioning a group here at IM. The interpretations that come back are so far from what was intended.) I know many who get law-Gospel right.
My experience of Calvinists is like my experience of any other group of Christians. Mixed. But on the internet, they are the big dogs, so they get more mentions.
LikeLike
I’m confused by this:
“Those Calvinists who were elated with Webb’s ability to actually sing about the TULIP several years ago are now being served up in-your-face portrayals of Christian bigotry and hypocrisy, especially about the treatment of gays and support for the culture war.”
It’s not like “the Calvinists” have been alone or even at the forefront of “Christian bigotry and hypocrisy.” Our Arminian brothers and sisters have been right in there too. 😉
I’m also confused by your last point. Why does it require a Lutheran bent to put together law and Gospel, prophetic intensity, Christ’s love and the arts? You must have a very different experience of Reformed Christians than I am having, being one myself. I guess not even Calvinists are monolithic.
Anyway, I like the comparison to Mullins very much. While I think a bit of righteous anger is good, ultimately it is a terrible place to hang out.
LikeLike
Superficial comment: Never got into DW’s whiny vocals. Nails on a chalkboard for me.
Content comment: I know folks that love his music, and rail on the church and how “out of touch” we are with society. Then try and get those same folks to volunteer to deliver a meal to a shut-in, or give a ride to a needy person.
If this is Derek’s ministry, why do I have to pay $16.99 to get his CD?
I guess all us finger-pointers have somebody pointing back at us.
Sorry, Michael, I’m just grumpy today.
LikeLike