Hold The Light For Me

90 thoughts on “Hold The Light For Me”

1. Pingback: Unsolicited Advice for Those of You Going to Passion 2010: Community « Everyone’s Entitled to Joe’s Opinion

2. Yes.

   If all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, then the Church is made up of people who fall short of the glory of God. It is hoped that as such people become more like Christ and less of what they were, that that ever-increasing glory will be revealed, but it will always be a shadow this side of heaven.

   For this reason, people in the church will always hurt us and we will forever linger on that hurt if we hang onto our old man. Dying to self is the only way around this. It’s Job’s “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.” Such a person is so much closer to the Lord that the pain of this world retreats. Outer space is wickedly cold, but not a few feet from the sun!

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3. Dan – I think you hit the nail on the head for me. My experience has been that, as with any organization, the “church” (little c) whether it be an “established church”, or even a more fluid group such as a home church, has the potential for corruption and mission drift. It has also been my experience that the solution to both of these problems (apart from the obvious necessity of divine intervention) is a grassroots movement toward repentance and revival. In the context of authentic Christian relationships, the best way to ensure the church is a place where such relationships and such authenticity are nurtured and valued is for individual believers to start having such relationships and start living such authentic lives one person at a time.

   I think what iMonk is saying is that some church bodies (or maybe even some denominations) devalue such authenticity to the point that it become tremendously burdensome (perhaps even dangerous) to live an authentic Christian life within the confines of that body of believers.

   Certainly, I personally agree that if your church (little c) abuses your spiritual person, you should remove yourself from the abusive relationship and find another church. However, I also agree, as many have posted here, that the answer is not to withdraw to points of relative safety and then snipe at the structures and leadership of those churches. At the end of the day, we do, in fact owe obligations to the church (little c) to the extent it is the local and most tangible representation to us of the Church (big C). We are to gently correct those caught in sin, cautiously lest we also become entangled, and then we must bear one another’s burdens. We cannot do this from our couches. We must live authentic lives among our fellow believers despite the risks that might accompany such an endeavor. I wish, as iMonk does, that more churches nurtured authenticity, but the answer to darkness within the church is not placing your own light under a bushel.

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4. To me the confusion lies in what we really acknowledge as the church. Is it the denomination, your choice, or those that believe as Christ wants them to? Is not the later that which is called out in Revelation? As a person who decided that I was tired of the plastic rituals and whited tombs that many have become, I become more honest. There is a heavy price to pay for that, but being able to sleep at night, to have the assurance of Christ far out weighs human acceptance that you are a “good” Christian. If a few become honest it may catch on, I hope.

   Keep up with the hard hitting posts, some are on a journey, some need to start one.

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5. Matthew…

   i felt the same way when i started going to AA meetings…

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6. iMonk –

   Thank you for your swift and thorough response. I guess part of my confusion may result from the fact that I do not come from a background where my church has a particularly strong hierarchical structure. (I grew up in the SBC, but left the denomination while attending Baylor University. Nothing like seeing the sausage made to sour you on a denomination. I now attend a non-denominational church, after stints with EV Free and Bible Churches). I cannot imagine anyone from my church leaning on me in such a way as to cause me to remove blog posts, etc., as has apparently happened to you. Then again, I am simply a layman at a small-ish non-denominational church, and am therefore presumably not doctrinally accountable to anyone the way someone in a more hierarchical denomination might be.

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7. Imonk,
   As usual a GREAT post. I think most of us have found the community you describe and define, here, online at your webiste!
   🙂
   I think more and more folks are asking your questions, but traditional Christianity doesn’t want to answer them, or wants to use the Bible as a rule book. This is of course a gross oversimplification. Now with the Web, more and more believers are reading and discussing Wright, McKnight, Brown, iMonk,McLaren,etc. We are gravitating to the Web as a community where we can voice our questions, concerns and faith. Please keep posting, and God bless you!

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9. MP – House churches come in all shapes. To suggest that all house churches are as institutional as Presbyterian churches is simply wrong (ever read Frank Viola?). I don’t suggest house churches are perfect or the answer for everyone, but I do believe they are as valid an expression of the Church of Christ as any institutional church. I was simply responding to your suggestion that those of us who gather in living rooms are doing so b/c we are feeling sorry for ourselves (maybe I misread your point).

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10. My pleasure. Glad to be of service.

    (Sweeping bow)

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11. iMonk, this is why my blog has “Confidential” in the title, and it’s why I use a pen name. We’re fighting the same battle, I’m just more focused on the missionary side of it. Because Christians feel they can’t be honest with some of their struggles, we find that people only get the romanticized/sanitized version of full-time missionary life. When they’re here in the field, the reality is too much, yet they don’t feel they can be honest about why they want to leave. It plays havoc for those left in the field, and too many I’ve personally known end up leaving either the ministry, the church or sometimes even their faith–because they feel they can’t admit to Christians what they perceive as “failure”.

    Evidence of what you speak came up recently when a young woman emailed me with (paraphrase): “I really feel called to full-time missions, but I do not attend church of any kind, and I don’t want any Christian friends. Is this a problem?” Yeah, it is. I’m not sure she could see the disconnect. But the search term I received “Can missionaries feel depressed?” spoke volumes to me about the front we’re expected to portray.

    The only reason I blog on this stuff is that there needs to be honest, candid dialogue about all the facets of being a missionary. I want to see people serve and be missionaries; I’m just trying to stop the bleed out of people leaving the field. So why am I technically anonymous? Because my supporters seriously couldn’t handle what I have to say.

    BTW, my parents have pretty much left church as you described.

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12. Please, let me amend my last post by saying that you should definitely consult the Good Lord before running off locked and loaded to start the next Reformation or a Christian commune on your property. And if you feel that it’s God’s will that you serve quietly and humbly in your church without rocking any boats, then, by all means, do just that. But if God is laying things on your heart that He wants you to share with your church family or congregation, then I encourage you to speak out, even if it means that you’ll be told to shut up or hit the door. I guess the root of what I’m trying to say is that if we want church bodies that are truer reflections of Christ than what we’ve presently got in mainstream American churchianity, then somebody’s gonna have to put it all out there and lay their head on the chopping block.

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13. If we truly desire authenticity, transparency, and God-given freedom of speech within our churches, denominations, and Christian communities, then maybe we’re going to have to fight for it, expect it, and insist on it in an aggressive, uncompromising way. I truly believe there’s enough of us to really make a difference — that is, if we get over our hurt and fear of rejection and start speaking out … and keep speaking out until the exalted preservers of religious mediocrity either cave or go running for the hills.
    Besides, the overwelming wieght of scripture is on our side. Search the NT for those things that occupy the majority of most churches’ time and resources — big facilities, large-scale productions and programs, monetary obsession, correct doctrine as the center of the gospel, the maintenance of traditional forms and rituals — and you’ll have a hard time finding justification for these things. But look for scriptures that talk about how we as believers should relate to each other in a Christlike and Christ-centered way — loving each other, carrying each other’s burdens, encouraging each other, confessing our sins to each other, praying for and with each other, and working to build each other up in the faith — and you’ll find no end of scriptural support.
    So, if that’s what scripture tells us that the church should be about, then let’s be about it. And if most of Western Christendom refuses to listen to us and insists on being about those other things, then maybe we should just let them go on their merry way. We’re out there, and, if we look, we can find each other. And if we find each other, we can get together and seek after the vision of church and Christ-centered community that God has given us.

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14. Monk,

    Thanks for the clarification. Unless I badly misread them, some of your post-ers have forsaken the assembling of themselves, and mostly because they’ve been hurt. This is the coward’s way out, and being a man who resembles Truman Capote more than Charlton Heston, I feel for them–believe me, I do–but I do not think it pleases the Lord or promotes their salvation. Warts and all, the church is the bride of Christ, and

    I love Thy Church, O God;
    Her walls before Thee stand;
    Dear as the apple of thine eye
    and graven on thy hand.

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15. The fact that you are part of what is considered a non-Christian cult by most other Christians explains your point of view. Thanks for the info.

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16. I simply contend that the “church” one goes to can take a very different form, schedule and format than the traditional church. If I leave one church for killing my soul with American idolatry, what is the point of going down the road to its clone? All that’s different is incidentals. I would look for a real difference, and if that happened to take me to a house church with 8 people, I can look forward to being told I “dropped church.”

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17. MP:

    Sometimes people leave some churches for some time and for some good reasons.

    Unless a person believes in a totally local church, then it’s obvious that leaving a particular group of Christians and their building/schedule is not leaving the church in any way.

    The job of the church is to be a sign and demonstration of the Kingdom. It’s earthly mission is to make disciples. The mission isn’t for disciples to support the church. It’s the other way around.

    I have never, in any place on this blog or in my book, called the “abandon ship.” It doesn’t offend me, but it does perplex me when the discussion becomes an explanation that I do not adhere to the extreme positions some want to assign me.

    Please consult Alastair Roberts notes on the church for a more Biblical view of the church: https://internetmonk.com/archive/riffs-061607-alastair-roberts-on-the-denominational-church

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18. I don’t recommend wives staying with dangerous men.

    What I recommend is that, after a fair trial and consulting with the leaders of the church, you leave an abusive church to go to a church that is not abusive. And that you don’t stretch the term, ‘abusive’ to mean anything you don’t like.

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19. Monk,

    Of course a church can be very, very wrong, and those who leave it can be right. But quitting the church is a far cry from quitting a church. When I left my last church in 1983, I went to another church the next Sunday and have been here ever since. I know I’m more fortunate than many dear people, but I have a hard time squaring our Savior’s love for screwed-up churches with forsaking the assembling of ourselves together.

    Sorry if the Shallow Hal comment offended you or your readers. I was using it to make my point that our own insecurities can make churches scarier than they are.

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20. Clay,

    Let’s face it: home churches are as ‘institutional’ as Presbyterian churches. They have leadership, liturgy, confessions of faith, priorities, missions, dress codes, buzzwords, and kookery, like the rest of us. This means they’re as subject to brokenness as the Southern Baptist Church or Calvary Chapel. It also means if some find God’s grace in garages and basements, others find it in church buildings and cathedrals.

    Several years ago, a close friend of mine left his traditional church for a home church with the goal of bringing back primitive Christianity. What he ended up with was unpaid pastors, the Lord’s Supper every week, lots of sharing time, and casual clothing. Is any of this distinctly NT?

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21. Jason,

    I don’t know how long you’ve been reading IM, but this isn’t anything new for me. Under many of the IM categories, there is a lot of material on this.

    In general:

    1. I see very few pastors and even fewer denominational officials who have any idea what I am even talking about. They are “reaching” and “growing” organizations. Whether someone can say they are gay or gambling addicted, etc within some aspect of their community is a small matter. (There are exceptions, such as churches dedicated to using Celebration Recovery type models.)

    2. Established churches are denominational churches, recognizable churches, churches that are part of the dominant church landscape, as opposed to house churches, informal churches, alternative churches and movements. I call this the church with the sign vs the church that meets under someone else’s sign.

    3. There are many churches and pastors working to address this issue, but they are counter cultural chuches, and the culture they are counter to is the church culture that is represented in the mainstream.

    4. In the past, my calls for confessionalism, freedom for vulnerability, etc were specifically called out by representatives of the “truly reformed” as being completely incompatible with the proper concerns of a church, i.e. doctrine.

    5. In my view, it doesn’t take a lot for a church to equip and release someone to build this kind of fellowship. When I was a pastor, I knew that my congregation couldn’t process much openness and vulnerability, but we started a 12 Step ministry that did nurture that, and I equipped and released people who could develop those gifts.

    6. Are you hearing some frustration? Yes. We are living through a time when church defenders are failing to see some of the issues that go along with increased pastoral authority and strong emphasis on no deviation from doctrine and church culture.

    ms

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22. iMonk,

    I confess to being an avid lurker on your site for several months now. I find nearly everythying you write to be challenging and insightful. And about 75% of what you say seems right to me (which if you knew me, you would probably not consider that a compliment 😉 Even when I disagree with your conclusions from time to time, I tend to think you are still asking the right questions. Although I have read most of your essays, and many of your posts, I have not participated in the discussions, and so, I may simply be somewhat behind or out of the loop on your use of terminology.

    With that caveat, I must say that while I am both challenged and intrigued by your lament in this post, I am a bit confused by it (and your subsequent responses in the comments). It seems that what you lament in your post is a tremendous lack of authenticity within the body of Christ. With that observation, I wholeheartedly agree as does, I think, just about everyone who has posted a comment here. It is a sad and poignant commentary on the sate of Christendom at least in America that most believers go through life without ever having the kind of relationship Osenga describes. However, what confuses me is that the post (and the comments that follow) seems to devolve into a bit of a grievance against the “established churches and their authoritative ‘wisdom'”. I am having a hard time following:

    1) Where you believe the root of the problem lies. Are you asserting that the lack of authenticity is foisted upon believers by church officials? Is the problem peer driven such that as believers congregate together their “natural” inclination toward selfishness and self-centeredness causes them to create an environment that squashes and punishes authenticity? Or is the problem rooted more in the individual hearts of believers who are unwilling to open themselves up and become truly vulnerable to one another? (I’m fairly certain you do not mean the latter, but why do you so quickly reject that as an answer?)

    2) What exactly is the “established church”? Does that term reference some sort of connection to one or a group of denominations? Is it defined by size? Meeting place? Is a body of believers an established church because it meets in a church building? What about a “home church” that has gathered together for many years? Is that part of the established church?

    I would be very interested in hearing you flesh out those issues. But perhaps you will tell me to wait for your book, which would be very wise of you, if a bit opportunistic.

    Thanks,
    Jason

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23. Because its just human nature for nominally well-intentioned people to slide down to the lowest common denominator at their every opportunity – and there’s no theological distinction that could save a church from being filled with people. If believing in Jesus subliminally means I also have to expect magic around Christians or out of myself, I’d laugh this religion off and be done with it for good.

    “Believing”, Church-going Christians are going to screw up, be cruel and selfish and stupid and maintain course, never, ever feeling very bad about it. And I know that the moment I find myself among to those rare saintly, honest Christians, I’m about to find out some lower depth of MY selfishness, cruelty and stupidity.

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24. “When we choose to be vulnerable with the right people who are safe and loving, it can embolden others to do the same.”

    Perhaps there is a flaw here. “with the right people”. Perhaps being vulnerable to those are we do NOT know to be safe or loving is more the kind of radical sacrifice needed to truly change things. If we wait to find safe and loving “right people”, I fear we may never see the change we hope for.

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25. “The Bible says that the Church is the body of Christ. Following that analogy, if one of my toes decided to jump off and go hang out by itself the entire rest of my body would suffer for it. The rest of my body could end up with some kind of life threatening infection. It would certainly affect my balance and my ability to walk/run. Just as importantly, the toe would wither and die as a result of being separated.”

    Yes, this is a classic case of mixing metaphors, but I think the point is apropos:

    “If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.”

    Faith is more than group membership – in the end, we can be whole in the eyes of God having hacked ourselves to pieces. In fact, suffering and loneliness and trusting in Him seem to be what he expects his disciples to casually accept out of love for Him.

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26. Actually, it’s partly because of lack of real discussions in the church that I’m moving from a Calvinist denomination to the RCC. But I agree, there’s got to be a stronger reason to move denominations than “times are tough here.” If I had left just because of restlessness, I would be constantly restless even as I was moving, but because I didn’t move until I had found the solution for my restlessness, I’m able to move in peace.

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27. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedenborgian

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28. I understand and sympathize with what you are saying here. It sounds like you are surrounded by those for whom a childlike faith childish ( or high school) and not humble. It is hard to find those who are mature in Christ, which is what we all want to find (and should aspire to be).

    During college I fell away from church and came to feel like I wouldn’t find a place for me that would fit my newly “enlightened” self, so I turned to self study instead. With the impending birth of my son, I felt it was time to come back from the wilderness and find a new church. After trying out several we eventually found a new home where I feel my contributions and concerns are welcomed (in a different denomination than I was baptized).

    P.S.: It sounds like your book will be an evangelical version of “Heart of Christianity.” 😉

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29. Werther: Since you consistently sound like a Catholic, could you please clarify what you are?

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30. Churches are like wives who don’t care what you think. And how could they? They’re institutions, you’re a member–it’s an inherently one-sided relationship. Of course it’s in their own interest to emphasize brand-loyalty, but that doesn’t make it in *your* interest.

    If you feel you have to have a church (defined however), then at least try to find a relatively decent, open-minded one. iMonk seems to be complaining that his conservative Protestant coreligionists are behaving…in the manner to which we have become accustomed! Perhaps this is a caricature, but how can one reasonably complain about it when one knows what they’re like going in? (That’s all I meant before, Michael.)

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31. MP – As someone who is in his living room on Sunday mornings (with other believers), experiencing church in a meaningful way, I do not appreciate your implication that Christians who choose to gather outside the institution are simply feeling sorry for ourselves. What makes your Church expression any more valid than mine? Have you ever considered the possibility that the entire institutional church system is broken? I see very little similarity between the institutional churches I have been a part of and the church started by Christ’s apostles as described in the NT.

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32. disobeying Christ?

    Thats quite an assumption, that somehow the institutional churches get to claim to The Church, the Body of Christ, and to represent Christ Himself.

    It appears that you aren’t paying close enough attention to the conversation MP or you would see that most people who have posted don’t actually buy this claim. The institutional church can’t claim to be The Church, let alone to speak with any kind of authority.

    Now its true that you may not care. A lot of the management of institutional churches don’t care. But you might want to take some time out to read the literature on the large number of evangelicals who can no longer stomach unfounded assumptions and are leaving the institutional church. According to the empirical data its not new believers but more mature believers, especially those who have been involved in leadership who are leaving institutional churches in ever greater numbers. Basically people leave because institutional churches have become a hindrance to their relationship with God.
    To mischaracterise that as disobedience is bizarre.

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33. Monk,

    ‘You’d have me sit in the midst of an institution whose agenda is money, buildings, and reputation, and say it is good for my soul’. I don’t say that’s good for your soul, and I’m as grieved as you are about the mess we’re in, but what we need is reform and revival in the church, not sitting in the living room on Sunday mornings feeling sorry for ourselves.

    Chuches are like wives: find a halfway decent one, commit to her, remember she’s no more messed up than you are, and quit pining for the imaginary former missionary who worked her way through medical school modeling, and now wants nothing more than to sit at your feet, lost in wonder, love and praise.

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34. Michael, I agree with you. Keep in mind that many of the things you’re complaining about helped to drive me into the arms of Friends (not advocating anyone join or not join). But, I do think that to remain healthy and balanced that you need to be a part of some body somewhere. And there are a lot of people, who consider themselves Christains, who are just out there floating around on their own.

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35. I’m convinced- and will say so in the book- that many people leave the church as the only way to preserve their faith with any personal sanity and integrity.

    You can send them all the epistles you want of what a bad decision they’ve made and how the church needs to be loved like your mother, but they aren’t going to buy it. The invitation to submit to being told who and what you are and what must be your answer to questions and issues far beyond the center of the Christian Gospel is being heard, and it’s being refused.

    These two paragraphs from the post particularly resonated with me as they articulate something surprisingly close to where I and my wife are right now. So much of what passes for church these days, quite frankly, isn’t. And when it is, it’s so hidden that few have the energy or persistence to find it in the ocean of evangelical clutter at most churches.

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36. The Order of St Borg strikes again:
    “RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! PREPARE TO BE ASSIMILATED/CONVERTED!”

    It’s the Romish version of high-pressure Wretched Urgency prosletyzing.

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37. Twenty-five years of finding the little ways to not answer certain questions. Twenty-five years of avoiding subjects during visits or meals. Twenty-five years of finding ways to listen, but not speak what you are really thinking.

    Welcome to Hell, IMonk…

    Every so often, one of us will open the door a little bit and say “this is who I really am and where I’m struggling right now.” Before long, a response will arrive that reminds me of what passes for Christian fellowship these days: the dictation of piety from those designated to guard the door of the Older Brother’s Alternative Dinner Event (not to be confused with the Father’s party for the prodigal.)

    i.e. ‘Any nail that sticks up gets hammered down. HARD.”

    I wonder how many people take that little risk of saying who they really are and get the same response?

    Not me, that’s for sure.

    In my college days, I found more honesty and safety in my Dungeons & Dragons group than in the Christian Fellowship (TM) I was in at the time, and quickly ditched the latter for the former.

    Even in the fever swamp of Furry Fandom, there are islands of sanity and safety where you can say who you really are and get the same response along with the acceptance of sharing a common fandom/interest. (Not too sure about anime fandom, though. And pop fandoms such as Twilight fangirls are definitely beyond the pale.)

    If there’s any common thread, it’s that you get the “Beware Thou of the Mutant!” doubleplusvaporize doublepluscrimethinkers reaction in fandoms only when those fandoms (or anything for that matter) take on the Cosmic-level trappings of a life-consuming religion. The more a fandom (or any interest group) approximates a religion in behavior, attitude, or required level of commitment, the more it will resemble what IMonk has described here.

    I’m convinced- and will say so in the book- that many people leave the church as the only way to preserve their faith with any personal sanity and integrity.

    That’s pretty much what happened to me. Though I did manage to reconnect through the liturgy and history of the original Western-rite Liturgical Church. (With an assist from Katherine Kurtz’s “Deryni Series” of Medieval Fantasy novels — where Western-rite Liturgical Christianity is presented in a sympathetic-though-with-flaws light. What? You think I wouldn’t stay geek-fannish even in that respect?)

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38. Astounding that I can post that song lyric about Christian community and then be accused multiple times of promoting the rejection of the church.

    This is the rhetorical tactic of a losing proposition: accuse alternative points of view of rejecting the very thing they are seeking to reclaim.

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39. One does not have to go to the caricatured extreme of a lone ranger Christian in order to have a low ecclesiology or an eccleisology that is suspicious of the high and mighty claims of those with a church shaped Jesus. There are MANY middle and alternative paths. The refusal to allow those other paths and the insistence that only the established churches and their authoritative “wisdom” are an option is simply not true. It’s an illusion, and millions of Christian who are not buying into the current high institutional control version of the church are witness to the truth that there is more than one way to do church.

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40. Monk – thanks for this post, it speaks to me. My wife and I are both preachers’ kids (SBC) and have spent our whole lives in church. I have been a paid staff member at three churches over the past 10 years or so. We have experienced pockets of true christian community in most of the churches in which we have been involved. However, in each case, the fellowship we experienced “just happened” so to speak, and was not the result of any direct effort or strategy of the church or its programs. We have recently left the “institutional church”, partly because our church literally disintegrated as as result of some serious character flaws of the pastor. We lost the community that was such an invaluable part of our lives. We are clinging to our faith, and are now trying to figure out how we can experience community and fellowship with other believers that God has placed in our lives outside the walls of a “church”. God has given us these relationships, and we are able to experience all the aspects of church that we have always loved – worship, Bible study, prayer, fellowship, service – without the mess that comes along with being a member of a formal church. Maybe what we are doing is closer to the way Christ intends for his Church to function as compared to what we have always assumed a church should be/do/look like. I don’t know, but this certainly feels purer than anything we’ve been a part of before.

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41. My Google Reader has been malfunctioning with your feed. It no longer posts the whole article. Sometimes it’s just the title, other times it’s just the first sentence.

    Is this intentional or something that has messed up?

    I love you blog, and I’ll continue to visit and read everything you write, but it was sure nice to have it in my blog reader.

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42. You know the goofy thing… I once felt called to attend the meetings of a gay, lesbian, bi-, and transgender group at a local university to simply be a presence that said, “Yes, I am a conservative Christian, and yes I disapprove of your behavior, but no I don’t hate you, and I’d like to get to know you as people.” I was stunned by the group. They were more open and honest about their hearts than any church group I had seen, and I wondered why the church wasn’t that way.

    This fake perfectionism, the walling off of parts of the soul, this is one of the major problems of the church. It’s ubiquitous, and it’s not Christian, it’s not healthy, and it’s not loving. It’s a great failure. But is the solution, as was suggested in a previous comment, to start more churches? Why can’t the churches we already have be redeemed (redemption being one of God’s favorite pastimes)? I’ve seen references to studies on revivals, and each begins with people who are willing to confess their struggles and sins. When we choose to be vulnerable with the right people who are safe and loving, it can embolden others to do the same. Real relationships are formed this way, and the churches already there can find the kind of loving and open environment you’re wanting. That we’re all wanting, really.

    There are places out there like this. And those that aren’t may be able to become so. It’s the cry of the human heart you’re talking about, and not everyone can stuff it down and ignore it forever.

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43. I don’t believe that the Bible allows for “Long Ranger Christians.” The Bible says that the Church is the body of Christ. Following that analogy, if one of my toes decided to jump off and go hang out by itself the entire rest of my body would suffer for it. The rest of my body could end up with some kind of life threatening infection. It would certainly affect my balance and my ability to walk/run. Just as importantly, the toe would wither and die as a result of being separated.

    The Bible tells us it was part of Jesus’ custom to go to synagogue (Luke 4:16). All four Gospels are filled with references to Jesus being in/teaching in the synagogues. Were there not big fat hypocrites in the synagogues? Hello! Pharisees! Do you think the leaders of the synagogues appreciated that Jesus showed up? No, I think most of them would have prefered he didn’t come – that he stay at home and study on his own. In Matthew 12:24, they claim he did the things he did by the power of demons. In John 7:20, they said he was demon possessed. If I got treated like that at church, I might be inclined to stay home. But, that’s not what Jesus did. Jesus – the Son of God – went to Church. He filled his function as part of The Body. If it’s good enough for the Son of God, then it’s good enough for me.

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44. In that second half, I meant to type, “As *for* other people in the church”

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45. I have one person in my current church with whom I can share anything that I truly want to share. I don’t always like or agree with his responses (and *not* because I’m trying to defend or preserve my own sin). I don’t always feel that he understands me. However, I can at least share deep struggles of my mind and heart with him. He doesn’t have to always understand me, because Christ does.

    As other people in the church, I do have some in whom I can confide, to varying degrees. At times, in Sunday School and small group settings, I have talked about personal struggles with sin. Some people have been receptive, while others seem to want me to stop talking about sin itself, as if the subject “brings them down.” You know what though? That’s too bad, because if I can’t talk about my sin with my brothers and sisters, I can’t talk about it anywhere, with anyone– and I will not resign myself to that fate. I will keep sharing (carefully, discerningly), and pray that God moves in the hearts of others to perhaps share their struggles too.

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46. I wouldn’t ever attempt an argument contra all association with church. But I would attempt an argument to allow the definition of church IN THE LIFE OF THE BELIEVER to be connected to Jesus and his Kingdom, and not be seen as an end in and of itself.

    I don’t believe a fallen and imperfect institution ever should get the buy-in that Jesus does. As it serves the purposes of Jesus and the Kingdom, then it is doing what Jesus designed it to do in history, but one need look no further than the Pharisees or much of the OT prophetic books to know that the church doesn’t have a lock on being connected to the purposes of God in a helpful way.

    Many churches today are practically apostate in terms of the Gospel. Many are abusive. The last sermon I heard in church was a point by point denial of jutification by faith alone, presented by a “good” man to a “good” congregation. My soul was diminished by being there.

    I agree we need to find those communities that, while imperfect, still serve the purposes of Christ and Kingdom, that equip disciples to follow Jesus missionally. But I urge every Christian to be skeptical of the hype and the spin that comes from the self promotion of denominations and religious leaders. Their goals are too often numbers, money and facilities. Power, not humility and service to the body of Christ.

    By all means, find a church or churches, but by all means do so with a critical attitude and a clear sense of the relation of Christ, Church and Kingdom.

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47. I can sympathize with the struggle of feeling like a church is actually hurting your spiritual life rather than helping it, or even neutral to it. My experience was in an independent charismatic church that started off well but then locked arms with a group of churches that were way off into TBN-style La-La Land. It became very authoritarian and expected everyone to revolve their entire lives around the activities going on at the church. If you weren’t married and you didn’t show up for the Sunday night singles service that lasted 3+ hours, complete with Benny Hinn style falling out at the altar railings, you had a spirit of rebellion. I was personally on the receiving end of such charges.

    To me though, the solution wasn’t a prolonged period (years?) of simply not going to church anywhere. I took a step back and found a good Presbyterian church that was the antithesis of my previous experience. Solid teaching, less emotionalism, a welcoming spirit and no pressure to join. We simply came on Sundays, soaked up the corporate worship experience and biblical teaching and that was it. It took us a year and a half to move beyond simply coming to Sunday morning worship and wanting to get more involved but we sooooo needed it.

    I understand the desire to pull back. But unless one’s options are severely limited in terms of available churches, I don’t think long periods of simply not going to church at all is not the right way to handle it. Christianity isn’t a ‘go it alone’ religion. A few weeks or months might be necessary, but I don’t think it’s good for one’s spiritual health to continue beyond that in such a state.

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48. I know what you’re saying Anna. These friends are close enough with me to have robust discussion about the issues, and to agree to disagree at the end of the day if that is what’s required. No one knows what is truly in their hearts besides God and them, of course.

    I’m not sure if you’re saying rebuke between Christians for accountability’s sake is never a good idea though, because I don’t agree with that notion. Sometimes you need a demolition job on your thinking and beliefs. At the same time, I am the last person to want to quench a smoldering flax.

    I guess the end-game for me is that giving up on the church forever is not an option (because if you are really seeking God/Christ as you put it, then He will ultimately point you to the church as part of that journey, if the NT means what it says). As far as I can help it, I want to do what I can to stop my friends from taking that road. Ultimately of course, the Holy Spirit must work in all of us in His time.

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49. Over the last couple of years, I have undergone some major changes in my life that have resulted in a new appreciation for living a life of integrity and honesty, which had been sorely lacking in my life up until that point. I have found that however uncomfortable or alien it seems to me at the time, honesty and authenticity always pays off in the end.

    In my church, I am so blessed to be involved in a couple of small groups where we pretty much lay out our faults/doubts/questions to each other, and let the Holy Spirit take it from there. There has been such love and growth coming out of those groups precisely because we acknowledge our sin to each other and do what we can to build each other up.

    That said, I do think there are some sins that are best confessed to a priest (yes, I’m Catholic). For me, it’s the Church acknowledging that we are a Body made up of sinners, but providing forgiveness and hope. I can never remember feeling like everyone else in my parish is holier-than-thou, mainly because we’re all in the confessional line together. It’s pretty hard to pretend that all is perfect in your spiritual world when everyone can see you’re waiting to confess a serious sin.

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50. Why not leave I’m sure their are communities of faith that are not so bleak?

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51. Preach. Teach. Thank you.

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52. Great post. All I pray for myself is that God will somehow meet me in the church, and let me be part of him meeting others. That quote, “Come on in. It’s awful!” clicks. Gross as it can be, I can’t deny having been helped in the past.

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53. Are you saying we should be “dead” to what churches do to us?

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54. I think youur characterizing of leavers as “Shallow Hal” is unfortunate. You know, the church can be very, very wrong and those who leave it can be right.

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55. MP: I wish I could share your blanket optimism. Unfortunately, I’m very much of the Rev 2-3 school: about half the churches in existence ought to not be, and someone needs to plant many thousands more that have the Kingdom, not themselves as their agenda.

    The church, like the Holy Spirit, should not be pushing its own glory, but what else can explain what we see and what millions experience? You’d have me sit in the midst of an institution whose agenda is money, buildings and reputation and say its good for my soul. The church is a sign of the Kingdom; a pointer to the Gospel; a resourcer of Christians. I can’t join you in largely unqualified confidence for what we see in America. The current defenders of the church in the west as a slightly off center wondrous bride of Christ really confuse me. In much of Christendom, one’s soul is truly in danger of missing almost all that Christ is about if you buy the church’ agenda.

    Back to Rev 2-3, I say. That was Jesus’ word to the church. I’m with him, not with his official representatives.

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56. “What keeps twitching is that part that is not yet dead.”

    I love that, DLE.

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57. You said, “I’m about to go Lutheran just for the confessional.”

    Wow, that says a lot, doesn’t it!

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58. Anna, I know this is going to sound glib, and I apologise for that, but if your church is wrong, either do something about it, or move to another . If you are saved, you are far from powerless.
    Of course there are loads of ‘churches’ that aren’t fit to be called the Church. Find one that is. Join it. Get on with what Jesus told us to do. The Church is not for us, it’s there to glorify God.
    If you’re in one that’s doing anything else, get out now!

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59. I count myself blessed that I do have a church family to which I can really air my dirty laundry, struggles and doubts without fear. We’re a simple/home church of about 15 people without any denominational affiliation, and honest, uninhibited conversation is the biggest part of what we’re about.
    But even though I have come to love and highly value this kind of freedom of expression in Christ, it hasn’t turned into the spiritual utopia I half expected or hoped it would in the beginning. After about four years, it almost seems like we’ve run out of things to say to each other. And a noticable lack of dedication to things like prayer and Bible study, an absence of any strong spiritual leadership (largely my fault), and dwindling motivation to “do” anything except sit around and talk has started to make some of us (myself included) wonder why we’re even bothering to get together. Of course, we frequently talk about these very problems in our gatherings, but somehow nothing is changing.
    As much as I hate to say it, I’m about to come to the opinion that most people have to have clear structure and authoritative leadership in order to grow and function as Christians. But that path almost always leads to oppressive systems of control and abuses of power down the road. I’m sure there’s some kind of healthy balance between necessary control and freedom, but, truth be told, I’ve never seen a church body that has been able to maintain that kind of balance for any length of time.
    Sorry that I’m not offering any answers here. I’m just venting my frustrations.

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60. MP,

    Most people don’t fear being hurt, untell they or a loved one has been hurt. Some of us keep trying, we find safe places for ourselves.

    I would have to say that yes, leaving is an option. Would you recommend that an abused spouse stay with their abuser just for the sake of the marriage and children?

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61. Steve,

    Most of us hurting ones are powerless. We are the invisible ones, except when our bodies or our money is needed. One person cannot change the local church. And we the hurting have tried so many times to find others, only to be rebuffed.

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62. Ben,

    I don’t know your friends, nor what is hidden in their hearts. But, it seems that a rebuke can only do one thing. Keep them away forever.

    I hope that they are still seeking, for if they seek Truth, they are seeking God/Christ. And if they seek they shall find

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63. Monk,

    Of course I know some churches are abusive and detrimental to one’s spiritual health. In Saudi Arabia one might have to make the appalling choice of attending one or going it alone. But how many of us live in Saudi Arabia? I live in one of the least religious parts of the United States, and there are six Evangelical churches, two mainline, and a Catholic church within walking distance of my home. Surely one of them would be better than the Church Between the Ears.

    Have you seen the movie, Shallow Hal? Jason Alexander plays a character who is obsessed with women, but cannot settle on one because none is good enough for him, including the stunning blonde whose middle toe is longer than her big toe, or the other way around, I forget. Later we find out his real problem is fear of intimacy. The man has a residual tail and he’s scared to death a woman will see it and reject him. Most perennial church-leavers, I believe, are this way: They’re afraid of being found out or hurt and so they find reasons to move on and finally move out. We understand their fear, and share it ourselves, but, withdrawing from the church for fear of being hurt is another way of saying, ‘refusing to love’, which always opens us up to pain and betrayal. Is this an option for disciples of Christ?

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64. Bruderhof may be German in origin, but by now it is mostly American (there is only a single community in Germany). And lest we idealize any one community or model of community: Bruderhof has not been without its struggles and abuses of power. Same holds true for the Hutterites, after whom Eberhard Arnold tried to model the Bruderhof, and every other Christian community out there. We must not forget that however hard we strive to follow Christ, individually and collectively, SIN will be with us while we are in this life.

    Personally I think the only solution is to get to the point where you can stand up and say, “This is what I believe” whenever it is important, wherever you are and regardless of what reaction is likely to follow. Frankly, if I am not sufficiently dependent on Christ to do that, how can I ask others to be sufficiently dependent on Christ to put up with my own weaknesses and failures?

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65. Oh dear, please don’t get me started!

    (Too late).

    We’re so pleased to tell each other that “the church is the people, not the building”, but the truth is that so often the church is the system – something that has to be defended and preserved over and above the people. And if you leave the system, you’ve left God.

    We’re so pleased to tell each other that “salvation is by faith, not by works”, but the truth is that our faith has become a work – you have to ‘believe right’ to be saved.

    We’re so pleased that ‘In Christ we are a new creation’, but the truth is that so often we put on our evangelical smiles, and wait till the problem is past before sharing about our ‘victory’ – and secretly wonder why we are the only one with problems.

    We’re so pleased to look down on Catholics who need a priest (or a saint, or Mary) as a go-between with God, but the truth is that most christians just want someone to tell them what they have to do/believe/say to be ‘in’, they don’t want any of that dangerous burning-bush-take-your-shoes-off stuff.

    The nature of group dynamics is such that it is just as good at maintaining a helpful belief system as a harmful one. Someone mentioned the Bruderhof in the comments. Try reading ‘Homage to a Broken Man’ to see why community as an absolute value is not a solution.

    It certainly IS dangerous out there, as IMonk says. Jesus didn’t promise us anything else. We’re just surprised that persecution comes from “the church” – but who put HIM up for trial and execution?

    I’ve been priveleged to experience one ‘soulmate’ friendship where we could share very deeply and personally. But that was probably the exception that proves the rule. I am very sceptical about the possibility of having that kind of relationship with a larger group of people (all together in any case). I think that it is probably safer and wiser to share different bits of oneself with different people – ‘spreading the risk’, I guess.

    You can’t expose yourself without rendering yourself vulnerable. You have to ask yourself ‘how strong am I feeling right now?’, and weigh up the risk depending on your experience of the other person’s trustworthiness.

    I have recently started a two-person ‘cell group’ with a friend. It’s looking promising. We’re both sharing things that neither of us have EVER shared with anyone else.

    There is hope.

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66. Absolutely MP!
    The church is not (yet) perfect, but our Saviour is. Trust Him. Love Him. Obey Him.
    Too much hand-wringing goes on about how bad the church is, so get on and change it!

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67. I’m was wrestling, sleepless in my bed with thoughts similar to your own. I don’t know the answer, I’m not even sure if I’m asking the right questions. I know I think too much, analyze all of this too much. I know I ruminate over these things sometimes painfully and alone. I know I’ve experienced the rejection and loss of friendships for sharing these struggles in my community of faith. At other times, I’ve wrestled with these things in frustration and even cynnicism and judgement of others. I know I can be right and be wrong at the same time. I know I play God too much and the weight of this can be overwhelming and destructive. I need other people to tell me these things, thowever, ruthfully and in love. It is not enough that I know them. “Confess your faults/sins/ignorance… to one another, pray for one another that you may be healed”. Yet Christ is always near, and he intercedes for me, the Spirit intercedes for me. I believe Jesus has gone before us in experiencing these things during most of his earthly ministry, yet he remained faithful, to his Father, his vocation and his those around him. He remains faithful to me even tho I often treat him the same way I feel treated by others. I want to be authentic, even if I’m not accepted, understood, scoffed at, dismissed, etc. But I want to be authentic in the way Jesus was autthentic. By the Spirit, I want to draw my life from him just as he drew his life from his father during such times.
    Thank you for reminding me I’m not alone tonight with these kinds of thoughts.

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68. Just over an hour ago I was sitting with a friend who dropped in to see me. He has been going through a rough time on many levels for quite a while. But the thing that has done the most damage to his faithand peace of mind is the abuse (no other word will fit) that his wife has been through in the workplace from christians and christian organisations. It has been a long time since he has been able to go to church or even want to. His faith is hanging in there by a thread. He struggles to understand what God is doing when the wicked prosper.He has a degree in theology (so do I) but in the face of this sort of pain platitudes are an insult. i had no helpful words, only my tears, and the reassurance that he could talk tome about it any time — I’m not going to be shocked. But answers? no, I can only promise to keep praying, and to respect his right to choose whether to be silent or to share. I feel as if I failed him; I don’t know what else I could have said.
    All I know is that when I went through my own darkest time (some years ago now) the church was part of the problem and not part of the solution. I want to do better than that, but I struggle to know how

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69. What it always comes down to, Michael, is that you cannot kill a dead man.

    The reason so many people struggle on both sides of this issue you raise is that they have not fully died at the cross. What keeps twitching is that part that is not yet dead.

    I realized a few years back that someone has to say what must be said, even if that brings out the daggers. A dead man won’t fear daggers.

    A dead man is not interested in what people think of him. A dead man is not hurt by what people do to him. If he’s truly dead to the world and alive to Christ, none of the garbage the world tosses at him matters.

    I’m not totally there yet, but I am closer every day.

    Too many of us are worried about what is going to happen to our ___________ if we give everything to Jesus and finally learn to die to self and live to Him. Too many of us are carrying around a sack full of nouns to put in that blank. It’s time to empty the sack and learn to live without fear.

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70. Oh and I forgot the mention what really hammered the nail for me today.

    I read a brief chapter by Tozer called “Honesty in Prayer.” I’ll share a paragraph that rocked me:

    “Another spiritual writer of unusual penetration has advised frankness in prayer even to a degree that might appear to be downright rudeness. When you come to prayer, he says, and find that you have no taste for it, tell God so without mincing words. If God and spiritual things bore you, admit it frankly. This advice will shock some squeamish saints, but it is altogether sound nevertheless. God loves the guileless soul even when in his ignorance he is actually guilty of rashness in prayer. The Lord can so cure his ignorance, but for insincerity no cure is known.”

    …”for insincerity no cure is known” is a scary thought. If what you write about is truly the epidemic that it seems, apply it to people’s prayer lives. Do you think people can be honest with God while being fake with people?

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71. Thanks for writing this. It is very encouraging. Good to know I’m not taking crazy pills. I’ve been having similar convictions running through my head recently. The church needs to be a completely safe place for sinners. Not safe in that repentance is ignored, but safe for us to humble ourselves before God and one another and have our hurts healed by Christ. I’ve almost never seen that in about a dozen churches I’ve been involved with over my short life. If we can’t be honest about who we are then we are left with empty rituals. I’m about to go Lutheran just for the confessional. But Jesus received repentant sinners with complete love and acceptance. I wouldn’t dare to count on that happening ever in an evangelical context. But I believe we all so desperately need this… for people in the Church to be Christ to us. You mentioned that the attitude some churches give when people leave for these reasons is, “Oh well, they must not love Christ if they won’t come to church.” There is truth there: Jesus is quite clear that you cannot claim to love Him and hate is bride (your brothers). But at the same time, it’s hard to love a Jesus you have NEVER MET. Church needs to be a place where Jesus is consistently met. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: The single distinguishing factor of a Christian congregation should be their love for one another. Unconditional acceptance. Isn’t that what all men truly desire?

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72. Imonk,

    Please keep writing about this as you continue to wrestle with it.

    I’ve been thinking lately about how Christians are and act in general (prompted in part by your ‘Why So Serious’ post), particularly the things that bother me.

    A big one is the lack of sincerity. In my opinion, Christians should be free to be the most honest, heartfelt, and sincere people on the planet. We should be able to feel deeply, and to talk about it. But unfortunately the reputation that we lose as soon as we embrace the cross we tend to try to snatch back as soon as we realize that we can become a “somebody” in the Christian subculture. Better put that mask on if you want to be respected!

    By God’s grace, the influence I’ve been able to have for the Gospel in certain circles of believers nonbelievers alike has been in large part due to my sincerity and genuineness. I’ve been told as much. People know I’m for real because I speak openly and honestly, by which means people get to know me for my faults just as much as for my passion, and that makes me human to them. In these terms, I love being human. The more I embrace my humanity (according to my need for the Gospel, as opposed to robotic perfectionism), the more I’m able to identify with those Jesus came to save, and the less I judge people. One of the best pieces of advice I ever received, while dealing with struggle and sin, was “don’t apologize for being human.”

    I knew from early on that if I wanted to have any sort of positive effect for the Kingdom, I was going to have to be a very transparent person. That’s scary, and I’m still far from completely embracing it for various reasons. But I’m trying, and I’ve seen enough fruit from the pursuit to keep me encouraged.

    Paul tells us to “let love be genuine,” Rom. 12:9. Here he doesn’t say love more, or love better, or love the people that are hard to love; just let it be genuine. Be real. How many people would need to repent if this command were preached on as much as _______ (take your pick of issues)?

    I wish, I wish, I wish we would be more honest and genuine, which would in turn allow others the freedom to do the same. Then we would recognize we’re all in the same boat of equally needing redemption and constant application of the Gospel. It would help kill the cookie-cutter, robotic, ministry machine driven culture some of us find ourselves in. I’m praying this for the new church plant I’m a part of.

    Keep on imonk. You’re an encouragement.

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73. You offer some very poignant thoughts and feelings that I think a number of people share. Thanks for that.
    There are such places. I am in one. Honestly, not the entire community is safe and welcoming and loving, but you can figure out who are with a little probing and patience. But it’s taken me almost twenty-some years to find such a place.

    The problem seems to be twofold: 1) the majority of those who share them are scared and have learned by experience that it’s easier and safe to stay closed off and 2) too many people find it easier to just follow the crowd and find whatever will keep things exciting, novel, provocative or whatever floats their individual boat. Now, I’m painting with a broom, here as, frankly, I think everyone fits in both to some extent.

    We are transformed by love. But love has to be received, and it’s a scary proposition to open yourself that way…

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74. Thanks for the response. Your second paragraph is very sobering indeed, because the response the people I have in mind received from the church has implicitly been “you must return to us or you dislike Christ”, almost verbatim. Never in those exact, literal words of course, and probably not even intentionally, but that’s certainly been the underlying message.

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75. Thanks, you’re one of the few that reminds me I’m not alone on the journey.

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76. I’m reading a pretty good book right now on the Bruderhof community, a German network of kibbutz-like commmunes of Christian strivers who’ve been making toys and being friendly to people for 100+ years. The book’s called ‘The Joyful Community’, by Benjamin Zabloki.

    I think after a certain age, nobody wants to be totally open with each other. Christian or not, you get to the point where you feel you earned the right to not be accountable to anybody but God – and since ‘God forgives’, you can be arid and circumspect and it doesn’t seem to matter.

    We get sick of ourselves and other people to the point where just being yourself feels unavailing and self-indulgent and emotional honesty is a pointless achievement. We’re part of so many casual communities that don’t know us and are sick of us already.

    Where’s the Christian faith that puts soul into the grind? Man, I don’t know.

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77. Let me ask this:

    Do you believe there are churches that are spiritually detrimental? Or even abusive?

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78. Monk,

    As much as I feel for people who have been beaten up and betrayed by their churches, for the life of me I cannot see how disobeying Christ is ‘the only way to preserve their faith with any personal sanity and integrity’. No church in the NT was perfect, and some were a bloody mess, but I cannot find Jesus telling anyone to give up and seek his salvation, sanity, integrity, community, etc., elsewhere.

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79. Its so raw that somebody tried to convert you on the first thread post – to CATHOLICISM?

    As if Catholicism isn’t internationally brimming with losers, the cultural conformists, the spiritually anemic, secretive people bitterly suspicious of any critique of the theological BS they insist they believe in? Really? Come on, now – the modern Gospel-proof culture of empty, heartless ritualism and cooled angst is practically a RCC copyright.

    I like my church and all, but we’re a mess.

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80. Amen

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81. If its been this hard for you these 25 years, can you even begin to imagine the experience of a non-believer who by some miracle should walk into the church? Salvation is truely a miracle in so many ways…

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82. speaking as a true ‘via media’ Christian in the now (?) TEC, and “looking forward” to ordination; I cannot tell you how much I resonate with this post. Indeed, I was going to write one just like it. Only I’m 26, and you’re not.

    May the peace of the Lord be always with you.

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83. Ben:

    I think that’s a good question, but I want to know how we ask it without acknowledging that the claimants to the power inherent in controlling the “true” church use that posture to abuse many true believers.

    I’d be more interested in what churches have offered to help such persons find a third place option for fellowship by a commitment to a missional, non-attractional approach than in what churches said “You must return to us or you dislike Christ.”

    The church exists to be a sign and a resource of the Holy Spirit’s work to bring the Kingdom of God into history. Is it resourcing Christians, including those who don’t fit in the “come and sit” model? Is it helping believers on their faith journey? Or is it defining what that journey must be like and where it must take place?

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84. @Keith: keep on trucking! Whereabouts are you, for curiosity’s sake? (I’m in Adelaide).

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85. Michael, you know that I just dealt with an issue like this, where I have felt the urge to hide who I am and my ideas and struggles. For all that, I am the pastor of the church!! I think that there are still some here, even in suburbia, who are seeking the kind of community you describe, a community of authenticity and transparency, even when that transparency is messy and ugly.

    Keep posting. Your thoughts resonate in my mind.

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86. Your words resonate with me, iMonk. Oftentimes, non-pretentious authenticity can be a hard thing to find in the church.

    At the same time, while I take your words for what they are, and realise that this question may be beyond the scope of this post’s intent, I feel like the following sentence might introduce somewhat of a false dichotomy?
    We lament the changes in their lives, but the truth of the matter lies with us and with what we refuse to see about ourselves as the custodians of “true Christianity.”
    I have at least two dear friends who have been shunners of the institutional church for probably five years now. On many levels, I share their lament regarding all-things evangelical (a root cause of their leaving), but at what point does a season of retreat and healing (of which I have indulged in myself, for a few months) turn into a stubborn, callous rejection of the bride of Christ? Surely there is a season for rebuke? If I am totally missing your point, I apologize.

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87. Oh my goodness- 25 years of that… oh.

    I’m pastoring a church in Australia that is looking to be what you are looking for- a place where we can honestly talk about what it means to follow Jesus in community together. It’s a small group in a rural town, but we’re slowly growing.

    While other churches want to promote image and niceness and being overcomers, I think that sometimes you’ve got to talk about when the roof falls in and there’s not much strength left for overcoming.

    I love people to be honest about where they are with God and not just put on a happy face. I think what we are trying to do is build a genuine christian community where loving God and each other is more important that finding the right buzz words and correct phraseology so we sound spiritual.

    It’s hard going. I understand why many pastors are content to put on a good show and a programme to turn out happy little sausages- it attracts the customers.

    But that’s not what church is about. It’s not what I signed up for when I became a follower of Jesus.

    We’ve got a long way to go before we are all we are meant to be- but on my best days, I think we are heading in the right direction, the way of Jesus.

    God bless you Michael as you keep on struggling with the thing currently called “The Church”

    Keith

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88. Thanks for the poem, Michael. It is very powerful.

    I wonder how many of us have even ONE person we could tell everything about ourselves to? I don’t. Many of us don’t want to disappoint or worry loved ones or friends. Or we are afraid of looking like or being a fool. Or we just don’t have anyone we could trust enough to open up to. It’s sad but true.

    You said, “If there is going to be a “safe” place for many of us to be Christians with questions, issues, differences, consciences- then we are going to have to create the communities with whatever tools we have, and we will do so while being labeled and diagnosed.” Does anyone know of such a place?

    Thank you for this piece. I know it is heartfelt on your end and I feel it on mine.

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89. Very poignant. I have found over the last year that asking questions can get you in trouble, can cost you friends and prestige but pretending all is well when you know it is not is far more costly.

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90. First comment: Abandon Protestantism and come to the RCC.

    Poor choice on your part, but a nice illustration of my point.

    “This is your struggle? Join my denomination.”

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