Today’s iMonk Cafe open mic question may pertain more to preachers, but also to those who read sermons, hear them, read blogs, books, etc. Anyone who hears the Word handled.
Have you ever heard a text that was meant to proclaim the Gospel- the good news of what GOD has done- turned into LAW? What you had to do?
So here’s today’s question: “What are some examples you’ve heard or read of Good News Gospel texts in scripture being turned into lessons, examples, moralism, advice, demands, guilt trips, shouldas and ought tos, in other words, LAW?
Also, my occasional post at the Steve Brown, Etc guest room is up. It’s called “Sometimes I don’t like any of the answers.”
The Internet Monk Archives 
?masturbation? I thot it was about petting.
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What about all the violent passages in the New Testament regarding the second coming of Christ, not to mention Hell? When the weight of God’s justice finally comes down fully upon humanity, it is not going to be pretty.
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Jen said: “How ya supposed to get married?” You’re already supposed to be married from before the foundations of the world, that’s how! π
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Wish I’d thought of that one, but I was never a good enough BS artist to pull off anything like that.
Christian Monist said that during his days in the Navigators, “God Hath Revealed Unto Me That You Are To Marry Me” was the standard (and pretty much the only) way they got married in the Navs. From the examples he gave, the resulting “God Saith!” marriages had around a 50-50 success rate.
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I’m sorry that my comments came across so harsh. I had no intention to interrogate or insult you.
Rick
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Hey, Don’t look at me to explain the differences. I never understood them as a Baptist. π
GRIN.
To be honest, that lack of separation helped me on my journey.
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Some of these things are traps that are really easy to fall into. I think the “What lepers will you touch today?” is a well-meaning question, and it is applicative in a secondary or tertiary sense, but to speak of it only in that way takes the focus off of Jesus as the realization that God is more wonderful than the people of his day (and we) expected.
“What’s that in your hand?” Seriously? This happened? That’s close to Snopes-worthy in my opinion.
I’m always struck by the emphasis that Matthew 5:27-30 receives in regard to adultery but how we pass over the admonitions of 5:21-26. Either they’re both incredibly weighty or they’re both not.
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I used to lead a bible study, and I felt like it was my job to challenge everyone by making them respond to my application questions. I felt like unless I had pricked their consciences and gotten a satisfactory answer from them as to how exactly they planned to apply the message to their lives, then I’d failed.
Eventually I realized that there is no one size fits all approach, and I was trying to shoe-horn them in to the box of my own creation.
Sometimes I’d have a realyl great study planned and then be annoyed when they either didn’t comprehend it or just didn’t find the topic as interesting as I myself found it. I was annoyed when i didn’t get the reaction I wanted. I imagine pastors probably feel similarly.
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Cedric: See the “Older Comments” Tab please. At the end of the comments thread.
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OK, I didn’t get done reading the then-30+ comments last night before I had to leave. Now, I’m back- there are 99 comments but only two are visible? I hope they are in the process of being checked & posted or else, man, that is a powerful heap of Moderatin’! (As Jethro Bodine would say!)
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I hear you, man. Pardon given – no need to beg. π I do understand once you get into the two “sides” intersecting, it’s very complicated to fully explain – and that’s not what this post is about, so sidetracking into all that shouldn’t happen. And you caught me reading that on a bad day in my head yesterday. It’s a good thing I didn’t start cussin’ – ha! Anyway, movin’ right along – everybody go back to your homes, nothin’ to see here.
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I’m not sure if this is what your looking for; but this is the way I like to explain this passage to people. Hopefully explaining a story with another story doesn’t seem too off..
We’re all children of God right? Made in His image and everything. So think about children of your own. Say you put them in someone’s care because you have to go away on a severely long trip. Then you come home and these caregivers have treated your children as their own, fed them well, helped extensively with difficult homework, and taken them along on several week long expensive family vacations. You’d be overjoyed right? That’s far more than they were expected to do. These people, even if they weren’t before, would be held as some of your dearest and most respected friends.
Now take the reverse. You come home and find your children haven’t been bathed. They’ve been missing school because their ‘guardians’ couldn’t be bothered to drive them. Your oldest ran away for two weeks and your youngest has lice. Oh yeah, and there’s the strong possibility one of the ‘guardians’ creepy older relations was making sexual advances towards your twelve year old. Enraged doesn’t even begin to cover it. Your first stop the next day is going to be to a law office and likely the police. You’ll probably even consider taking matters, violently, into your own hands.
This passage sounds like its about law but it seems more to me to be about relationships. God has asked us to take care of his own. To love those created in His Image. And if you think the Master in the Parable of the Talents got serious about the use and misuse of his money; how much more is the shepherd of this parable going to be about his flock?
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Anne, excellent point about the beautitudes. I love reading those. They are beautiful and give us hope. It would have been wonderful to be sitting on the grass listening to Jesus.
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Oh, I’m a little late jumping in on this one. . ..
Worst sermon I ever heard was on Joshua 1:2. “”Moses my servant is dead. Now then, you and all these people, get ready to cross the Jordan River into the land I am about to give to themΓ’β¬βto the Israelites”
The point this pastor was making was taken from the two words “now then”. Apparemntly the use of this phrease in the text means that God wants all of us to have a “now then” moment in out lives. He spent 45 minutes describing what a “now then” moment was . . . something to do with putting the past behind, yadda yadda yadaa . … . Worst ever.
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Julie Nordlinger over at Lone Prairie Blog recently began a post:
A marked memory I had of my one year in Bible college was that of people frantically trying to find the will of God. It came out in all sorts of heartfelt and religious prayers and confessions, and ended in two ways:
1. Misery.
2. God telling all the guys to date and then marry the gorgeous girls. (Γ’β¬ΒGod told me I was to marry you.Γ’β¬Β)
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This week my pastor gave a sermon about being “fruitful” .
Something like; We good Christians must be fruitful… is your fruit basket empty, half-filled or overflowing … etc blah blah.
He equated being fruitful (according to Jesus in John 15: 1-6) with “doing… ” .
He used John 15:1-6 as his scripture reference.
Today I re-studied all of John 15 in its entirety several times . I do not find Jesus’ definition of “fruitful” as meaning good deeds/works/tithing/doing.
He (Jesus) is saying the fruit is Love, and we cannot produce this fruit if we do not abide in Him. Obey Him.
Abide. Obey. Love. FRUIT !
For most of us of course the natural expression of this abiding love is “doing”.
My peers love the fruit-as-deeds definition so I must take these questions and commentary elsewhere (here) for insight.
What is Jesus’ definition of fruit in John 15 ?
Second :
My pastor stated that the meaning of the un-fruitful branches (John 15:6) being cut-off and thrown into the fire is that:
“…they will not be cut-off literally but that they will be … picked up from their unfruitful position and put into a place where they can be fruitful …” .
He claimed that many “biblical authorities” hold this view.
So what. Jesus’ meaning is the one that matters. Isn’t Jesus is saying that anyone who does not abide in Him will be out of the inheritance. Out of the village and into the fire ?
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Daniel:
I believe you communicated quite well.
Ephesians 4:29 “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.” comes to mind.
While I agree these are legitimate and serious concerns as coming from pulpits and deserve solid, constructive reproof, it seems some of the comments are sarcastic, condescending and a bit ungracious.
Would we express these concerns and issues the same way in person or in a different forum? I don’t know. My spirit is just a little unsettled by my perceived tenor of some of the comments.
Anyway, I also agree with you about this blog. Very informative and thought provoking and I spend way too much time here.
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It annoys me when people treat the beatitudes as if it were law. Granted, “blessed are those who _x_” has some sort of “X” there. But it really is a series of blessings, and some of the blessings are things nobody in their right minds would try to bring on themselves (e.g. mourning). The beatitudes are about proclaiming the God who blesses, & it’s gospel.
Take care & God bless
Anne / WF
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Rick, Joanie and Alan:
1) I mentioned Catholics early on in the blog post, with a humorous aside that we were in a zone where Lutheran understandings were going to prevail.
2) I have no embarrassment whatsoever in telling those who conflate faith and works or justification and sanctifiaction that they are tracking to the Catholic “side.” I could just as easily say the Wesleyan side, but the effect isn’t nearly as interesting.
3) Rick: This is not an examination of Catholic theology. Asking me if I think Catholics are saved is insulting and saying the Catholic faith is summed up in the Apostle’s Creed is more insulting. My family has paid a high price on that fact, you can be sure.
4) Alan: I can always tell that if I blog “Protestant” and then point out “Catholic” I’m running a risk with you feeling that discussion was unnecessary. And you’re right. It’s a bad habit and it’s shorthand. If I weren’t so lazy, I’d just point out to the person saying that grace and law are really mixed up in a way that can’t be separated that they are simply wrong. Wrong via Paul. Wrong via James. Wrong via Psalms. Wrong via Abraham. I don’t need to bring Catholics or any other group into it. So I admit that I was taking a too familiar road, and I beg your pardon.
Let me assure you that I am neither wanting to insult Catholics, convert Catholics or be interrogated by Rick.
Thanks Michael
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These discussions always confuse me about what Evanglicals and Lutheran’s think Catholic’s believe. We do not believe that faith = works or that faith = obedience. Our faith is summarized very clearly in the Apostles Creed.
Are you saying that a Catholic cannot have faith (let alone a saving faith) because the way they describe the relationship between faith and works is wrong? If so, doesn’t that make faith a work? If faith must meet certain intellectual criteria it becomes a work that only some highly skilled theologians can otain–but it’s certainly not a gift from God. It is a mystery how the Holy Spirit gives the gifts of faith and good works–but it is his work not ours.
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Well, I’m certainly not going to try to explain something we’d probably end up disagreeing on anyway, in some theologically technical way, which would then TOTally hijack the comment thread, blah, blah, blah. I wasn’t really arguing with your theology there when I said that. I did understand the Lutheran deal here. I was commenting about the fact that you found it necessary to drag the “RCC” thing into it at all. It was out of the blue and when I read it, I was like, “aaawww man, whad’ya have to go and say that for?”
So, yes, there is quite a deeper explanation of how Catholics view and talk about Grace and faith and how it all works in someone’s salvation, but that’s not why I put my nose in. That viewpoint wasn’t being talked about, and that’s fine. I’m just thinking if ya’ll are hashin’ it out over in your yard, no need to pitch anything over in mine to make a point. I love ya, man, but we both know you’ve got issues with all this – just sayin’, chiiilll. Peace.
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Great post, iMonk, and thanks for the good Law/Gospel stuff you consistently post! I’ve heard plenty of Gospel-turned-into-Law sermons (including a wedding homily that included the words “whatever evil God may send into your lives” and “seething cesspool of lust”) but this Sunday I myself will be preaching, and i’m trying my best NOT to do this kind of thing. I’m preaching on Matthew 25:31-46 (Christ’s final judgment of the sheep and the goats), and i do NOT want to send people out of the sermon with the message “be merciful to the needy, ’cause if you’re not kind enough, all the time, Jesus will chuck you into hell.” I have several instincts on how this scary command is rooted in grace, but i don’t want to preach “cheap grace” either. Can y’all give any help? Not asking you to write my sermon for me, but this text does have me in a Law/Gospel muddle today.
Thank you!
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All I can say is “yikes!”
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The others are bad. My jaw dropped on this one.
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Thanks, Michael. I read more about that Lutheran/Catholic joint declaration and found it here:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
I like paragraphs 11 and 12 and I read in 15: “By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.” And in 18: “Lutherans and Catholics share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who alone is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5f) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts.”
Good stuff, I think. I did read that it was the Lutheran World Federation as opposed to the Confessional Lutherans who signed that declaration. It is confusing to have any sense of all the different Christian groups out there!
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“… the next scene shows him back to preaching Salvation to the natives as if nothing had happened (or his wifeΓ’β¬β’s death was only an inconvenient interruption to his Witnessing Witnessing Witnessing). This was held up as an example of his Great Faith; I was the only one who read it as Γ’β¬ΕShe really meant NOTHING to him.Γ’β¬Β
+++++
Yeah, and maybe a hefty dose of “Christianity: How to Continue on Suppressing Your Shit the Same Way You’ve Always Done But Now With the Lord’s Ring of Approval” π Weird. Stepfordism. Creepy creepy creepiness
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Yeah, what the hell is that all about? Bizarre, especially when used in a patriotic context *vomit*
I’ve heard someone speak of them as the ten promises yet future … “you shall” “you shall” “you shall” … when he has done his work. Casts a bit of a different light on things … I likes it π
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I relate to your examples. I would like to suggest it might be more prudent not to mention particular names in this context.
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I was not trying to quote the catechism or play the card of knowing more than Catholics. I was simply saying that the meshing of faith and works, etc is our Protestant analysis of the Catholic position. The RC position is that justification and sanctification can’t be actually separated. Justification by faith alone is a “legal fiction” according to many RCs.
But unless we get an official citation from the catechism or an authoritative citation from the clergy, any correction of what I said is going to be incomplete.
Let me repeat: I was saying that’s the direction of the RCC from our perspective.
BTW the Lutherans in that understanding were most certainly not confessional Lutherans, but liberals in Europe.
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Post-Hurricane Katrina: I’ll bet God brought Katrina down on New Orleans because of their SIN!
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Michael, I am obviously not a Catholic who has studied the Catechism really carefully lately, but just recently I was reading about the “resolution” that the Catholics and Lutherans came to some years ago about how we are justified by faith in Jesus. I am sure there are a lot of Catholics saying a lot of things, but I don’t think the “official” Catholic teachings say that works = faith or obedience = faith. Faith is just faith. Works and obedience come about as people grow in the love of God. I think you may have studied the Catholic point of view more closely than I have lately, so I am kind of surprised you say that Catholics say works = faith or obedience = faith, but perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying.
Hopefully, Alan or Martha or Anna will provide more clarification. And I am aware that some Catholic teachings from “way back when” are not what the Pope would have us focus on now. I have been impressed with the writings coming from our current Pope and Pope John Paul II that focus so much on Jesus. There really is nothing else to be focusing on, I would say.
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I heard someone pray this week (not at Grace, but on TV) during the offertory prayer, “Lord, please bring us out for visitation this Monday night, and those that don’t come, please make them feel guilty.” A friend in FL calls this that “good ole SBC guilt trip.” It has nothing to do with grace, the gospel, or the work of Christ . . . just moralism and works-righteousness, which is self-righteousness!!
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I was thinking about this in regards to Baptism and Communion. Rather than being taught as how they relate to our identity in Jesus, I’ve often heard them preached as what the RIGHT way is to do them.
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In our former church one of the pastors preached on Matthew 23:23-24. The application was we should “out pharisee the Pharisees.” ….
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No scripture on this one but a children’s church talk that “Jesus hears our prayers when we obey” took the cake for me.
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For the second time, my jaw is hitting the floor.
Is *that* what the “Burning Bush: What is that in your hand?” sermon is about? I admit, I didn’t understand the application, but I certainly never considered that parallel.
Again, I have never heard that interpretation anywhere.
Looks like I’m missing out on all the really good exegesis!
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So how did your pastor even know about the second “Underworld” film in the first place? Because I like vampire films myself, and I couldn’t have told you the title of this one.
Innocently browsing the interwebs and just stumbled across photos of Kate Beckinsdale in tight black leather?
Though I am in awe of what you describe – I have never, ever heard anyone using the parable of Dives and Lazarus to condemn the occult. That kind of thinking is almost a kind of genius in its own way.
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I listened to the “testimony” of a young man (his father was the pastor) who had his first taste of life away from Mom and Dad. He was still attending church most of the time, but tried some new adventures to get the feel of adult life. He was riding his motorcycle too fast around a curve, and says as he went down he heard an audible voice ask “Where have your tithes been going?” Apparently God knocked him off his bike to teach him a lesson.
I think the lesson is do all your braking before you enter a curve, whatever you’re driving. And just in case, dress for the slide not the ride.
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“If you love me, keep my commandments.”
Love comes first, then the keeping of the commandments.
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On the ‘plumb line’ comment – the pastor, after admitting he ought to have read the bill more closely, actually apologized for offending my kids. That was not why I called him, certainly – but I give him high marks for saying that he may have not spent enough time on the message, that he may have misspoke. I can only take him at his word – perhaps our conversation will help him (and me, too!) be more conscious of what we are saying from from the pulpit.
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Your sigh speaks volumes, and your words tell me that I probably didn’t communicate my thought very well. Mainly I am just bothered by comments that seem to be venting anger more than providing constructive criticism.
In short, I agree with you. I love your blog. Keep doing what you’re doing.
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Arguably Acts 12:23 has the same overtones; Herod is struck dead for refusing accepting praise belonging to God.
The 10 commandments are perhaps not a Gospel Text as such.
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Daniel:
**sigh**
If a pastor is doing what is being shared on this thread, he needs to hear this and much, much more. He needs to get his preaching house in order.
Daniel, if you believe the sheep should only praise the pastor, no matter what he does with the scripture, then you are writing a prescription that will doom evangelicalism.
This isn’t a “touch not the Lord’s anointed” blog. Pastors in evangelicalism are responsible for a great deal of harm. A discussion like this is constructive and helpful to those who care what is happening in the minds and hearts of those who hear them.
ms
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I’m not sure why youth ministries become such a target for legalism. Several of our youth came back from a retreat feeling guilty about spending time on school sports. Given that this is a Lutheran church, they should have been instructed in Luther’s teaching on vocation, that as youth their vocation is to be a son or daughter and a student – not a church meeting groupee (evangelical equivalent of monasticism?). They should be spending time in their studies and sports. If not, they are going to grow into adults who have no concept of being the face of God in university or secular careers.
I really think the problem is not knowing how to handle grace. Maybe gospel is turned into law, because we think grace is a loan rather than a gift. It is going to be difficult to teach youth to serve God freely out of love if they are under the burden of some sort of grace pay-back plan.
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I totally agree with the fact that way too often law is preached where gospel should be preached. However, I don’t think this comment stream is helpful. A lot of people sound like they’re just using it as a way to berate their pastors. What is this accomplishing–other than distrust and division?
My suggestion is that before anyone comments they should evaluate how well they themselves make the gospel known.
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Any paranetic section of Paul’s letters (generally the second part) preached without the grounding of the doctrinal section (generally the first part) that explains what Christ has done and is doing. The ethics are not done out of thin air, from one’s own effort or goodness, but from Christ’s life within the person.
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Have about every single sermon turning into a how God wants to do so much through us if we could just learn to “yield” to the power of the Spirit. Most recent jumping off spot came from the parable of the sower.
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A few weeks back the OT text was Amos 7 (the ‘plumb line’ text) – the preacher launched into how homosexuality was wrong, and that the Senate Bill currently being discussed (about hate crimes) should not be passed, since he might get arrested if he spoke out against a homosexual lifestyle in church. I was not present that morning (I was supplying at another church) but my teenagers were appalled. I called him later and suggested that perhaps he should read the bill more closely, which he admitted he had not done. While I may not share his views on this issue, I was mostly not happy that he misrepresented the provisions in the bill.
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Mark 2 – the four men bring the paralytic to Jesus – Who have you brought to Jesus lately?
Then, 10 years later, when the same pastor of the same church was moving into the new multi-million dollar worship center:
Mark 2 – the four men bring the paralytic to Jesus – Please don’t hog the good parking spaces, we want new people to park in them. Help everyone find their way around our new campus. That’s how we bring people to Jesus.
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Regardless of whether justification and sanctification come through the same act of faith or different acts of faith (which is what I think you’re saying is the RCC/Reformed distinction), how does that change whether Jesus’ action of telling me (and all of us) to love my enemies rather than retaliate against them is a an act of grace (unilateral act of God for my good) or not? I don’t see how that’s relevant to what counts as God’s unilateral action of goodwill. Did Jesus do anything (including issue commands) that wasn’t an act of grace and truth? Sorry, I just didn’t want Alan to try to explain the RCC doctrines of justification/sanctification since they seemed totally irrelevant. If not, explain away. I’m not talking about earning anything or being able to follow the commands without God’s grace–grace that goes beyond just telling us his priorities/commands/insights in the first place.
If this isn’t a discussion you wish to continue, that’s fine. God bless.
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The burning bush as an anti-masturbation sermon !?!?- at least we were spared that…
Funny, that was the passage I preached on Sunday last. My theme was God is faithful to His promises, supremely in Jesus. Did I miss something?!
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The reality is that for most preachers, it’s a lot easier to preach law than grace.
But it’s also very, very easy to slip into a church environment which simply condones everything. Sadly the church where I spent much of my teenage years seemed to do this. The constant invitations to “come to Jesus” were never tempered by teaching on living out the Christian life, and striving for holiness, with the result that several of the congregation ended up flagrantly living out serious sin, including, I’m sorry to say, the associate pastor running off with the married worship pastor, and having the subsequent relationship blessed by the church. Responsible preaching is rooted in the liberty of grace, but takes holiness seriously, and seeks to teach all of Scripture.
However I have similarly seen the total opposite, in the youth group of said church. The number of times I sat through endless talks on the sin of even feeling attracted to the opposite sex, the mortal sin of “self-pleasuring”, the wickedness of a particular rock group whose name had secret Satanic overtones, how missing youth group to revise for critical exams was a sign that you were a Demas…the list goes on. Yet in nearly six years, I can only remember one real evangelism event, and absolutely nothing on the wonder of the gospel. To my knowledge, I’m the only one of my generation still active in church.
“For the letter kills, but the Spirit brings life.”
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Alan:
You have my full permission to assume the mantle of a bishop and clarify. But be warned, this is a Luther dominated zone π
But you are going to have a hard time convincing me that the RCC doesn’t say over and over that sanctification and justification are the same thing. If that’s just a failure to communicate, then we had ourselves an unnecessary reformation.
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Thanks–likewise!
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I think Capon does a masterful job in pointing out abuses in the traditional interpretations of the kingdom parables – particularly the parable of the sower. Too often the focus is placed upon the soils (emphasis on the response) rather than the Sower and how He sows. God sows liberally, even carelessly by our standards. He wants us to do the same.
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“You wind up saying works = faith or obedience = faith and then you just joined the RCC.”
Niiice — NOT. I’m thinkin’ there are other things you can say – possibly.
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You’re not exasperating me in the least. π No worries.
I’ll let iMonk respond from here on out, seeing as my presence here today seems to be upsetting the natives.
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Burning Bush: What is that in your hand?
I’d never thought of using the Burning Bush story as a pretext for an anti-masturbation sermon.
OK, so I have what I think might be the best one. When I was in seminary (Concordia Ft Wayne), I was at my field work church when the pastor preached on the healing of the blind man in Mark 8. What do we learn from this parable? That “when Jesus touches us, he opens our eyes to see ways we can bring our finances in line with his stewardship principles.”
I rolled my eyes right across the chancel.
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Jen,
Certainly the beginning of this thread wasn’t advocating preaching “Law and Gospel . . . together in balance” in the way you are. And I see the distinction you’re making, even if it seems too sharp, since communicating God’s priorities (as Jesus did) is something God has done for us–unilaterally. Because this revelation is something we needed (and still need) and were given by God, it seems like a mistake (not concluding you’re making it) to see Jesus’ own commands to us as something less/other than an act of grace on his part, just as when I tell my toddler to avoid the stove. We need his leadership and priorities like we need the ability to follow them, and he gives both and more as undeserved kindness to us. For those who don’t see his commands as a form of undeserved kindness (not the only form), what are they? Deserved kindness? Something other than kindness, deserved or otherwise? Why aren’t his teachings a form of him showing us favor? It makes no sense to me from experience or from the definitions of “grace” that his insights on how to live wouldn’t be grace.
I don’t want to exasporate anyone, so I’ll continue to read any comments and think and pray about it, but won’t respond any further. Thanks for the gracious conversation.
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Church shaped spirituality. Buy my book π
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Huh?
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I was in a church for awhile where the pastor carefully constructed a program (backed up by scripture verses) so that the congregation could be certain their prayers would be heard. The series went on for several months. By the end of it, I had pretty well figured that if we had to do all of that to get our prayers heard, I might as well give it up.
In that church those legalistic exhortations and admonitions had the effect of putting our focus on carefully doing exactly what the preacher taught rather than having our focus on Jesus.
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The infamous quote by Keith Green: “the difference between the sheep and the goats is what they did and didn’t DOOOOOOOOO!!!”
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….is your head “covered” right now jen..?,,,biblically i mean
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@ T Freeman
You can tell the difference by who is doing the action. If God says “do this”, it’s law. If God says “I’ve done this for you.”, that’s Gospel.
Yes, we are commanded (law) to be gracious and merciful to others. But that’s not the Gospel.
Good works flow out of faith (which is a gift).
Is this getting any clearer? Law and Gospel should be preached together in balance.
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BTW His point was that we should all follow this example.
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Last week my pastor preached from “The Lord’s Prayer” in Luke 11, and used that occasion to twist “forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us” into about ten points of how when we ask someone to forgive us we don’t ask in the right away. In other words, it was twisted from “being forgiving toward others, as overflow of the gospel” to “you can only be forgiven if you ask in exactly the right way.” It was amazing.
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Been there on that one. My dad, a career missionary, told me, “Meet your wife in church.” But more than one youth pastor in college gave the group stern warnings about not showing up to try to find a mate there. At the same time some well-meaning friends in the church tried subtly to set me up with their daughter (didn’t take). Later, in a different town during parent night when I started teaching quite young, a few of the conservative Christian parents of some of my female high school students pointedly asked me if I was married.
Talk about mixed messages! Ignore them all. They’re nuts. If your heart belongs to Jesus, why be afraid to follow it?
I met my wife at a beer and barbecue bash for new teahers, hosted by our employer, a high school district, with a beer in my hand. She says it was love at first sight for her. 21 years and two kids later she’s still a lovely committed Christian woman and we are both very happy.
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…….instead of examples of how the Gospel is often used to dictate behavior i think we should be focusing on how it is used by skilled orators to cleverly manipulate unsuspecting followers to further their empires… ….on a lighter note: the article the imonk did @ steve browns blog is well worth venturing off the reservation for…
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Ironically, I had to add that passage today to the brochure for the capital campaign I’m working on. SInce I am anonymous I’ll confess that I hate this assignment. Churches own $billions in buildings yet Christians aren’t changing a thing that I can see. I’d sell them all and give the money to the poor. Health care, food, shelter, minor details like that.
Off my soapbox.
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Your last paragraph is losing me a bit. Jesus says to me “Tit-for-tat is no way to live. Be kind and generous to mean people, like your Father is.” If him telling me that isn’t him being gracious, what is it? Even by your definition, I honestly don’t see how him telling me how to deal with evil people isn’t an example of grace (giving me undeserved kindness, God acting unilaterally for my good).
Isn’t it gracious for me to tell my daughter to avoid the stove-top?
Honestly, it has just never occured to me that such ideas were contrary to the Reformation or that grace (undeserved kindness) couldn’t be in the form of a wise command from an all-knowing God.
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Teachers smacking our hands with rulers is not what God wants.
Tell that to all those Christians with a black belt in ruler who really enjoy putting it to use.
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You do know that GOP stands for “God’s Own Party”, don’t you?
(Heard that one from the guy over at “Onward, Forward, Toward”.)
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….thats awful…….i prefer the Gawd that the republicans (Grand Old Party) have adopted as their mascot……He’s kick a*s…..
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Haven’t you heard any of those Christian Testimonies about “How I Met My Wife”?
God magically creates a helpmeet and magically brings the two of you together.
(And if this doesn’t happen to you, it’s because of Secret Sin In Your Life.)
All I can figure is Christian Couples were BORN already married.
Either that or she budded off from his side when he turned 21.
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My favorite is in one of Paul Washer’s sermons. He was wondering to himself why God let his hip deteriorate and he suddenly rememered all the sleepless nights he spent in college praying for God to make him like Jesus. Somehow, God destroying his joints was His version of making Paul Washer look like Jesus.
Also, apparently Paul Washer “gets that look in his eye” when he leaves his family for hours at a time to pray and his wife says to herself, “He’s going to the mountain!” That mountain to which Paul Washer goes, I believe is Mt. Sinai. Does he think he’s Moses????
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Many times (once from a pastor) I have heard the “great cloud of witnesses” spoken of in Heb 12:1 referred to as the people around us watching our actions. The application then becomes … do good because others are watching you and to stumble would be to destroy your witness. Be perfect or you are going to screw this up. Usually, this is a “pep talk” devotional.
However, if you bother to read Heb 11, you see that the “great cloud” is a long list of the faithful who have come before us. The application should be to be encouraged by those who have been faithful even though they may not have lived to see the results of God’s work in thier lifetime. Breaking the bible into chapters and verses seems to be a problem here.
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T Freeman: Calling “commands” grace is going to be an issue. You can call them true, helpful, etc. but grace by definiton is a God action to us unilaterally. You can find another way to say the Law is good without saying the law is grace. You wind up saying works = faith or obedience = faith and then you just joined the RCC.
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I hope you can see my point; I think now I see more of yours (from your sermon titles below). I agree that giving the command alone isn’t sufficient, but that’s not the only form of grace we’re given (thank God), not even close. But that doesn’t mean that it’s something other than grace when Jesus tells the adulterous to go and sin no more, or tells the rich young ruler to sell & give, or tells us to love each other, etc. etc. I don’t think Jesus was a teacher smacking our hands with a ruler when he gave us the commands he gave. I’d hate to give anyone the impression that his commands are anything but grace to us, even if they are by no means the only grace to us.
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Michael,
I see more what you mean now. You’re totally taking me back in the day. I grew up SBC and heard those sermons constantly–every sermon about what we were going to do (or had already failed to do and needed forgiveness for. Do they teach that technique at seminary somewhere? Wow, I had forgotten that. Now I’m feeling a little sick. Memories.
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The Law doesn’t LIE.
It just can’t make us LIVE.
it can tell us the right direction.
But it can’t make us want to go or to go SUFFICIENTLY for life or eternity or relationship with God.
It’s like grammar school. It’s not lying to you. But it’s not how we live. Teachers smacking our hands with rulers is not what God wants.
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Jen,
Yeah . . . but the post and many of the comments aren’t just about distinguishing. The question is inherently problematic because it creates the impression that anything involving a command or inviting our response–even from Jesus!–is something unworthy of being called “grace;” it’s LAW (to be read with a heavy, disdainful tone). That belittles Jesus, as the one who spoke many of these commands, or makes parts of him “good news” and other parts something darker. Everything Jesus did and said is part of what God is doing for us–it’s all grace towards us. It’s all good news, even if parts of it upset us, even the commands. Jesus’ commands to us don’t merely condemn us. That is not their only function and certainly not Jesus’ intent–he’s a king leading his people. Giving commands are part of what God has done for us–motivated entirely by goodwill–telling us what to do, how to approach life the way he does–because we honestly don’t know apart from him telling us. We are like sheep without a shepherd. The fact that God is still willing to give us leadership and guidance, that he is willing to be our shepherd–this is good news; it is grace, even if it’s grace we don’t want or like sometimes. Even if we need more grace to do what he says. Even though we need grace for messing it up and falling short of the commands. If we’re commissioned to make disciples, teaching them to do everything Jesus commanded, are we being mean or helpful when we do that? Part of what God has done for us is give us his great insight about what’s really good, what’s worth pursuing, what’s best to leave behind.
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I could write on this all day.
I suppose the most common for me are the texts about the miracles of Jesus. Just about pick one.
The guy at the pool. “Do you want to be healed?” Yeah, it’s up to you.
The feeding of the 5000. What have you given Jesus lately.
The transfiguration. Have you had a quiet time and seen the glory of Jesus?
The resurrection. Are you following Jesus when everyone else quits?
The announcement to Mary. Have you believed God for a Christmas miracle.
Burning Bush: What is that in your hand?
Woman healed of issue of blood: Are you willing to touch Jesus?
Garasene Demoniac: Will you be a witness for Jesus?
Lepers healed: What lepers will you touch today?
These aren’t all worthless applications by any means. Some are good questions. But they aren’t the first meaning of the text. The texts are about what God is, what God does, what God has done, etc.
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We don’t “separate” them. We just “distinguish” them. But yes, one condemns us and the other resurrects us. After we understand the gospel, we desire to do what God commands. Faith is distinguished from works, but they aren’t separated.
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One Sunday, my pastor preached on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. With that as a text, a gospel-centered sermon should have been a no-brainer. Unfortunately, the meaning and application that my pastor tortured out of this passage was not the gospel, but God’s condemnation of divination, sorcery, and necromancy. My guess is that when he read the phrase “though one rises from the dead” he thought of Samuel, instead of Jesus. Seriously, how does anybody get necromancy from that parable? It’s about Jesus and the scriptures, not the occult.
Then he threw in a bit of old fashioned culture war to illustrate his point about how good Christians need to separate from the world and its sorcery, using the example of the film “Underworld: Rise of the Lycans,” mocking the name of the film for good measure.
To be fair, he did also give us the gospel, but made absolutely no attempt to connect it to the text or to anything else he had said in the sermon. It was obviously an afterthought. The whole thing almost made me physically ill, and I think it must have been divine retribution that his appendix burst later that day.
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Sorry, that’s “have to agree with him RATHER than try . . “
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an, not and SBC…
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Once heard and SBC pastor tell his congregation(I was visiting), not to surrender to Missions. He said we had enough missionaries. What the people needed to do was give more money to the church so it can be dispersed to the missionaries who needed it most. I was so shocked. I couldn’t even get up out of my seat to walk out.
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I heard a story of a guy asking a preacher what he had to do to have eternal life and the preacher told him to give everything he had to the poor then follow Jesus. It turned out to be to hard for the guy and the preacher just let him walk away.
I heard another say this: “But my point is that Jesus simply wonΓ’β¬β’t separate grace received and grace lived, no matter how much we want him to do so.” Honestly, I have to agree with him than try to separate law from grace all the time like one is our enemy and the other our friend. I think we do better to view Christ’s commands at least as a yet another form of grace in terms of leadership and guidance from someone who knows something about life, and not about “earning” anything. Being told to love God, love others, forgive, etc.–these aren’t opposed to the grace of God these are part of the grace of God to us in the form of insight and leadership.
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!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Time to get a new pastor.
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A friend of mine left her church over that. He then worked her family’s leaving into the sermon as an example of tearing down!
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Most of my friends from that fellowship were smart enough to ignore the pastor and the other naysayers.
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Your father sends a servant back to his hometown to look for a bride for you.
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Yeesh. The closest I can come to any of the listed examples in my eperience would be the pastor at our Evangelical Lutheran church telling us that if you don’t vote Liberal Democrat on every issue, then God hates you and he doesn’t want you in his church because Christ was a Democrat. *shakes head*
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oops, I meant Nehemiah 2.
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Tim,
Even in the workforce, I remember running into a man who thought like that. It was very frustrating because I could see that it wasn’t working. He was just unwilling to make time to develop a relationship.
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sigh…my pastor, on more than one (usually inappropriate) occasion, has used the latter half of Nehemiah 3 to heavy-handedly remind the congregation that they aren’t following him and doing what he wants them to do (“rebuilding the wall” = volunteering ceaselessly for his unsupportable programs).
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I once heard a chaplain give a sermon on 1 Kings 19, that blamed the seven thousand faithful, for Elijah’s depression, because they hadn’t given him enough kudo’s and support. Moral of the story being that you should complement your pastor on his sermons, and remember him at Christmas. Sort of flabbergasting if you ask me.
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How ya supposed to get married? LOL!
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When I was in college, no one in my Christian fellowship was dating (or if they were, they were doing it in secret). Those of us who dared to do so would get berated by some of the campus pastors and the other students For example, “I think you two are spending too much time together. You need to put the Lord first.” etc. and accuse us of making the relationship an “idol.” It was always very predictable, and it made me wonder what was motivating them to attack us.
The only acceptable way to meet a mate was to NOT look for one and wait for God to magically supply one. If i actually went out and tried to get dates etc, they’d accuse me of “not waiting on God” or not putting him first, etc.
When they’d come out with these kinds of statements, it would always strike me in the heart because I was very sensitive, and then I’d feel guilty and have to break uo, etc. It took me a long time for me to learn how to disregard these kinds of people.
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Oh, this one is a beauty.
For fun, I went to visit the church that my old youth pastor (from 20 years ago) is now pastoring. He was doing a series called Miracle Evangelism, based on a book from the 90’s (instead of preaching from scripture). Sure, he peppered his speech with cherry-picked scriptures, but this one made me throw up a little.
John 4:34 Jesus *said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.
The pastor said “I just put my name in there. [pastor’s] food is to do the will [of the Father].”. All I could think is “Oh yeah? You gonna live a perfect life and nail yourself to a cross for the sins of the world?”. ayi yi yi Lord, have mercy.
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“Lord, Take Away Everything That Stands Between Me and Thee,” with examples such as God killing a Christian’s wife because he loved her too much (“Idolatry!”). THAT made me so hesitant the one time I actually had a girlfriend; I was scared that God would kill her out of jealousy.
The Campus Crusade film about a missionary somewhere in the Amazon jungles. Towards the end, his wife dies of a tropical disease she contracted. Missionary husband’s reaction after he watches her die was “The LORD Giveth, and the LORD Taketh Away”; the next scene shows him back to preaching Salvation to the natives as if nothing had happened (or his wife’s death was only an inconvenient interruption to his Witnessing Witnessing Witnessing). This was held up as an example of his Great Faith; I was the only one who read it as “She really meant NOTHING to him.”
All the variants on “All your problems are because You Don’t Spend Five Minutes With The LORD Each Morning Studying His Word”, i.e. “Just study your Bible more.” Back at Cal Poly, we had one guy named Bob Ressegue who was famous for this; I would have given anything to be there when he ran into a problem “Five Fast PRAISE-THE-LORDs” couldn’t fix instantly so I could have parroted his own words back at him. Word for word.
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Oh! and also the part in Acts where Ananias and Sapphira lied to God and the Apostles, and thus….were struck down by God. Literally, it’s the only part of the New Testament that still has the very violent, unmerciful Old Testament vibe…you can’t imagine what my pastor said about this one…
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10 commandements…
I dunno, every now and then I hear that following these ancient laws from Exodus is the key to living a Christian life…
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Jesus as a role model for the 2nd Amendment: “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword”
Bashing and demonizing gay people (with extra points for not mentioning that greed appears in the same sentence).
Women and slaves on the same footing, subordinate to men as the natural scheme of things with everyone playing their God-assigned role.
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James’ whole epistle. I’ve been in at least two separate and unrelated churches where things were going very well until the respective pastors began a sermon series on James, inevitably turning the simple exhortation to live out your faith into ham-handed legalism. The scariest part is that, within months of this in each separate church, the congregations suffered enormous conflicts and divisions that hadn’t been evident before.
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2 Tim 3:16
Acts 2:38
Matt 5:48
etc…
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“They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything–all she had to live on.”
Also, anything pertaining to percentage giving.
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Every text involving election/predestination.
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