An atheist visits Planetshakers Church for the big show.
This may be the best discussion starter you’ll see this year. If you want to take a measure of how evangelicals see their world, hand them this description of an atheist’s visit to a high-powered Australian megachurch. Read. Ask for responses. Take notes.
I’ll be quite honest with anyone: In my limited opinion, this appears to me to be the death throes of any substantial evangelical Christianity. The atheistic author doesn’t leave me any hints that the Gospel showed up (and maybe it did.) The stumbling block of the cross? Maybe it’s there and atheists don’t hear it. I’ve never been to Planetshakers, so I don’t know. I can’t judge the Gospel proclamation from this distance. I will say I don’t believe atheists are stupid. If Jared Wilson were preaching, the atheist would have been offended by his constant focus on Jesus.
It’s interesting to me that most evangelicals will read this, not see the probable absence of a clear Gospel proclamation and not see the potential dominance of technological manipulation in the place of dependence on the Holy Spirit and scripture. I believe many evangelicals actually like to be emotionally manipulated by technology and equate it with a spiritual experience. (Timothy Leary, your phone is ringing….somewhere.) Perhaps we’re only a few steps away from Christians creating virtual worlds into which they can enter and have “spiritual experiences” as they choose.
Evangelicals also will tend to see this as an evolution of missionary methodology, i.e. what we now do to “reach” young people. The true spirituality of an event like this- a dangerously addictive technology based spirituality that will crush any lesser version of the Christian experience- doesn’t register, mostly because evangelicals are so devoted to their pragmatic ideals. Is this aimed at the creation of simple faith? Or is its goal an overwhelming sensual-social experience? Is resistance futile?
Reading this leaves me profoundly sad at what is happening to us as we contemplate the coming evangelical collapse (and I assure you, this sort of church is creating thousands of “evangelicals” who will vanish into thin air with contempt for Christianity.) I read it and I understand why my wife is a Catholic and my children are Anglicans. It makes me certain that I’ll live and die in the evangelical wilderness.
So there is my curmudgeonly response. What do you think?
The Internet Monk Archives 
iMonk, you are right, the answer is in our hearts. What will it look like when our hearts are right? I don’t claim to have much wisdom in this area, but here are a few of my dreams…
1. A resurgence of smaller, simpler, neighborhood-oriented churches.
2. Worship that is simple, hospitable, sacramental.
3. A less “professional” ministry (in the world’s terms) and a humbler, more pastoral model of leadership, Biblical preaching, spiritual care and formation.
4. Congregations that are truly missional–abandoning the “temple” mentality where everything revolves around the organization and its programs, freeing and encouraging people to celebrate God’s presence in everyday life, finding ways of serving their neighbors first, sacrificially supporting their brethren and mission efforts around the world, and planting churches in new neighborhoods when they reach a size where intensive pastoral care and community become difficult.
5. An undeviating focus on the Good News of Jesus rather than moralism, culture war and political issues, and theological hobby-horses.
These characteristics comprise my understanding of (your term) “Jesus-shaped” churches. Forget “the cutting edge.” Put technology in its place–in some cases, abandon it when it keeps you from face-to-face relationships. Slash the budget, focus on the essentials, and give the rest to missions (but take good care of your pastors). Serve those who have no way of paying you back. Abandon the impulse to impress. Stop spouting the party line long enough to listen to your neighbors and discover afresh what it means to be human and living in a fallen world. Grow up. Get real. Get on “the way” and walk with Jesus in the community of his friends and those who can guide you along the path.
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That response raises more questions than answers, but Jesus tended to do that too. I do find it hard to judge the hearts of all those attending Planetshaken to be in the wrong, but I think your point is not where their hearts are, but ours should be and using this as an example.
Anyway, thank you iMonk for your thought provoking article.
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That’s a pretty evangelical response. What’s the next thing?
The post evangelical answer is that the answers have always been there in the smaller, deeper, more ancient, simpler, Christian traditions. They are there in China, India, and the global south. Theres a world that has said no to the evangelical circus.
It’s there for whomever wants it. It’s not going away, which is more than I can say for what we’ve reading about here.
As long as we want to play in the playground of cultural idolatry, we aren’t going to see the answer. The kingdom was right in front of the Rich Young Ruler, yet he asked Jesus to give him the next big thing. When he got his answer, he turned away.
What will it be evangelicals? Power? Fame? Celebrity? or The dusty roads of Galilee and the world? The church of the poor? The small places? The real deal.
The problem is in OUR HEARTS brother. Not in our program.
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I have only one real question in response to this. If this is a apears to you to be the death throes of Christian evangelicisim, what do you propose we do about it?
Admitedly, for most of us it isn’t our congregation we’re reading about. Admitedly many congregations have similar characteristics to greater or lesser degrees. Admitedly pointing out the problem is the first step towards finding a solution. Can we please, please, please move on to the next step. If that’s pointing out what is working (or did work historically), or experimenting with new ideas that no one’s tried yet, or simply getting down to the specifics of what went wrong to facilitate addressing the problems piecemail. Criticism is only different from bad-mouthing if it offers hope of(and perferably a plan for) improvement.
Or is it your position that the evangelical church is beyond recovery, beyond hope, and no longer used by God in any meaningful way?
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Got it…thanks!
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Ahhh, if only my ears really did bleed… at least then I’d be up for something like Padre Pio was in life and in death. I’m sure that’s at least one of the ticks in the box for sainthood or something… =P *just kidding: RC’s don’t take that last statement too much to heart!*
Glad to see that the metric conversion works out alright for you FollowOfHim. Though I think that pound cake in metric terms would be “400 gram cake”. A bit of a mouthful to get out.
And LOL @ the sarcasm! It’s nearly 12:30am as I type this and I’m having to stifle laughter to avoid waking up the rest of the people in the house. =)
Yes, my liturgical roots, a mixture of evangelical Methodism and Anglo-Catholic Anglicanism. It’s a far cry from the PlanetShakers experience indeed.
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iMonk, this post of mine was a bit of a vent which on second thought I would probably prefer not to leave up, since the discussion is on the phenomenon not the particular church. I would appreciate if you could delete it.
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Interesting synchonicity with this post in that I just visited Planetshakers to evaluate their worship service for a class (I’m an Anglican, btw). The article is fairly accurate in its description. Memorable moments:
– We need to ‘position God’ to receive our praise. ???
– A young women in a red shirt being singled out to be told that she needed victory in her life – God now giving her the name ‘Victoria’.
– Singing the same chorus upwards of fifty times, then being told by the pastor, without irony, that we often need to ‘sing a new song’ because old songs can get stale when we’ve sung them too many times.
– People being begged to let go of the bondage of the Big Bang Theory and Evolution
– A healing time devoted especially to people who take medication for long-term medical problems such as blood pressure.
And most significantly for this discussion:
– Being assured that becoming a Christian doesn’t mean joining a church or performing a ritual, it means a personal relationship with God. Now pass the giving bucket and credit card forms….
I don’t think post-evangelicalism can arrive soon enough.
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Many churchgoers like to think their version of Christian doctrine is perfect in every way.
The mega churches are worst for this. Jesus drove the ware sellers out of the temple with a whip yet most of the mega churches have a brisk trade in all kinds of knickknacks within the church temple every day of the week, including Sundays. I wait for the day when they are again driven out of the church.
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Hey Luke,
I agree that the “it’s just emotional response” argument shouldn’t be an outright dismissal. I teared up at Rich Mullins and Sara Grove the other day, and that shouldn’t invalidate their music by any stretch. Also, I believe that there is a big difference between simple and shallow. One of my favorite musicians, Fernando Ortega, suggested that the simple naming of things (such as God’s creation and people) can evoke praise and I agree. Meanwhile, there’s a lot of talk about getting God to do things to us that seem impressive yet abstract in the lyrics he mentioned.
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Brandon F> I was just exchanging remarks with your fellow Aussie skane above. Your ears actually BLED? Wow. In another era that might have been taken for a supernatural sign….. Aural stigmata. “He that hath ears to hear” indeed.
Thanks also for the metric conversion. One of our own famous politicians, William Jennings Bryant, was once described as being like his home state’s (Nebraska) Platte River: “an inch deep but a mile wide at the mouth.” I never considered the metric conversion of that description before. (Americans often say “the metric system is confusing.” Yeah. All that multiplying by 10 is really hard to wrap your head around.)
While I’m thinking about it: what happens to pound cake in the metric system?
/begin/sarcasm/
American Christians might be able to find Malachi more easily. It’s usually preached from every Sunday morning in the pre-offering sermon.
/end/sarcasm/
More seriously, I’m happy you’ve found some grounding in your liturgical roots, wherever that may be, and that you can keep your experiences in a healthy context.
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Yeah, AOG=AG. It was very confusing when I first started reading religious blogs/websites (most of which are American), seeing all the references to the AG and wondering what sort of denomination is AG, when all along it was the US version of my very own denomination. Although technically, as of 2007, the Australian Assemblies of God is now the ‘Australian Christian Churches’ (arrogant much? as though there are no other Christian churches in Australia? or is that just me?). Everyone I know, including every pastor I’ve met since then, still calls it the AOG however.
And you’re right about the mathematical impossibility of building a megachurch in a small-medium sized town (I almost have an engineering degree, so I can manage some mathematics too). It’s one of the saddest things to hear a sermon about building a new church to seat more people, when the building with 500 seats doesn’t even have 200 people in it at the time, like I heard last Sunday. Especially because the town, although only medium sized, is still large enough that with the right focus on bringing people to Jesus it would be possible to fill the 500 seat church in every service, without poaching from the other churches in town.
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Neville, you have entirely missed the point of most the criticism that has been written in response to this post.
You are right in saying that the atheist visitor may well have been just as turned off by another form of Christian service. That’s a given. The point is, this “church” as described has totally abandoned true Gospel proclamation, Christian humility, beneficial tradition, and Biblical understanding of worship, fellowship, and Christ-like love of neighbor and replaced it with pyrotechnics and spectacle in a supposed effort to wow and impress the “seeker” (but probably more because they themselves think it is fun). This is the rotten fruit of over a century of evangelical revivalism’s commitment to “reach out” without a solid theological basis undergirding their efforts. Joe Bayly wrote about this in the 1950’s, for heaven’s sake, in “The Gospel Blimp.”
Read my post above and meditate on Paul’s words in 1Thessalonians 2. That’s how we present ourselves and that is how we reach people for Christ. If they reject that kind of appeal and devotion, it’s an entirely different story.
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All the band on one pillar, or separate pillars for each member?
And would they have to stay up there all week?
This could be the Next Big Thing, Neville! 😉
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That’s how we do things in the Catholic Church in America, usually. Irish Catholic style is, by and large, also American Catholic style. Also, the hymns are usually bad, and partly on purpose. “Why Catholics Can’t Sing” is a prett fascinating book, I’d reccomend reading it.
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Sometimes the music people might be reffered to as the Worship Team, or the Praise Team, but it’s not really the same deal even then.
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The distant occasion of tables being overturned, and whips cracka-lacking in the temple comes to mind.
I am all for using technology in evangelical ways. However, in situations like the one described in the article, it is rare to ever see the true humility modeled by Jesus. Or the not-letting-the-left-hand know what the right hand is doing.
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i only meant that my lack of appreciation for God’s love for the church was arrogant.
also, i agree and do not mean to imply that we should always be silent. my point, as you’ve said, is that we who serve as critics need to be more aware of our motives and state of heart and not assume we know other people’s motives.
i specifically agree with your statement, “If the voice of the ordinary Christian cannot say ‘this is wrong’ without questioning of their motives, such abuse will simply continue.” if more people who sensed that something was wrong were able to say it, things would be simpler.
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The Amish are of Anabaptist ‘descent’ and look at their witness at Nickel Mines.
The whole world noticed the phenomenon of Christian witness absolutely devoid of hypocrisy. Wow! Whatever motivated that witness: be it obedience to the will of Christ or their sense of community, it was something I will never forget.
Do I ‘understand’ them? No
Do I want to understand them? Absolutely
Out of that ‘pacifist’ tradition has flowed a witness of Christ to the whole world,
and all they did was to try to comfort and care for the widow of the murderer of their daughters, whom they forgave immediately.
I’m Catholic, and I’m impressed by them no end.
Silly pacifists? Funny clothes and ‘quaint’ ways?
I’m not laughing.
No way. They are the ‘real deal’.
We can take lessons.
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I appreciate your testimony Paul, but your assumption that all criticism of the church is a lack of appreciation for God’s love for the church and is an expression of arrogance is one I cannot share.
I also would suggest that no one on such a thread is announcing they do not love the church, aren’t serving the church or stands above the church demanding that it be lovable.
I just received two emails about abusive church situations. If the voice of the ordinary Christian cannot say “this is wrong” without questioning of their motives, such abuse will simply continue.
I affirm your call for a motive check and the need to be constructive and part of the solution. I can’t go with the direction of your comment that God’s love for the church means Luther should have sat down and shut up.
peace
ms
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for the last 20 years i’ve felt like a misanthrope in the church. confused by the call of leaders to do more in terms of getting from God for myself and the call of Jesus to give more to the people around me. because of this i decided that if the church wasn’t going to do anything, i was. i’ve worked with some of the most disadvantaged children and youth in Kentucky and Minnesota. i’ve spent time with the homeless, sick and widows. i’ve loved my wife faithfully and raised my children lovingly. i’ve lived the gospel to the best i knew how.
about five years ago God made me painfully aware of my own arrogance in criticizing His beloved church and thinking that i could do better on my own. He asked me a simple question, “you are really good at criticizing the church, but what are you willing to do to help?” to quote an old college professor, “you’ll never change the system without becoming part of the system.” God really does love His church, with all of it’s flaws. what can we do to love the church more? and don’t give the answer that if the church was more lovable we would love it more.
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Did everyone catch this part?
“It felt as if Jesus was going to turn up any minute…Then out came the pastors. Middle-aged blokes peppering talk about Jesus with constant references to the footy, reality shows and McDonald’s.”
Those of you who object to the concert for not being spiritual enough–well, that’s what the pastors were supposed to provide, no? But it sounds like they were the least successful part of the show. Or are you saying they should put MORE emphasis on the “middle-aged blokes”? I realize you probably object also to their sermons, or what was reported of them, but do you honestly think a more traditional presentation would have been any more interesting?
Church in its traditional form is widely understood to be boring. Oh sure, some people like it (or pretend to), while others put up with it because they think it’s good for them. But for most, going to church is a sacrifice, not a pleasure.
Also, most churches come with a lot of baggage about authority. Should “middle-aged blokes” really be telling everybody else what to do? (Or old blokes, depending on your denomination?) You may not care so much, but the whole hierarchical structure alienates a lot of people.
By the way, notice that the concert people felt like they had to invite these guys on–some kind of theological thing, like the requirement some churches have that the band has to pray x number of times and do an altar call.
Anyway, my point is that the concert people are trying to fix problems that the churchy-church people have just ignored and left to fester. Maybe they didn’t fix it the right way, but at least they’re making an effort.
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The difference between “rock concert” and “worship service” is a purely internal thing. That said, here’s one meager tactical suggestion:
Put the band and singers in the back. Let them do their thing, but it’s quite a different experience to have full music, albeit not focused on the “stars on the stage.” It worked in a Lutheran church I attended decades ago….somehow even with amps and all, it was a holy experience. FWIW.
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I went to a church like that recently up in New Hampshire and it was incredibly weird. I have been a part of small churches my whole life so that is one reason for the weirdness. The other is that it was very distracting and made it seem that the worship team was more important that God. Like a very tame Coldplay concert.
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Excellent.
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Xenia,
Altar rails are low rails where the people would kneel before recieving communion and the priest and altar server could go down the line giving each person the Host, generally or always on the tongue. (I’m a post Vatican II convert, so I’m not that familar with them.)
I like the idea of visually making specific space set apart. (The Orthodox do it in with icons. But, I also know that my greatest joy in service, being an Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist wouldn’t be possible.
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Remember reading this back in late July during my lunchbreak at work and almost laughing so loudly that I would have had to be shushed by work colleagues.
I remember going to a Planetshakers concert/conference about 4 years ago before I refound my liturgical roots (yes I am an Aussie myself). At the time I thought it was whiz-bang great (being a techy geek from way back). Until about midway through the 2nd night of the conference when my ears started to bleed and I ran outside to buy myself some earplugs. And when it came to the sermon, supposedly long-time Christians asked me where they could find Malachi (that verse about storehouses, Mal 3:10 and the surrounding verses) in their Bibles. Despite there being a table of contents in it, they ended up not bothering to look because they couldn’t be bothered listening in because they couldn’t wait to get back to “praising and worshipping God” in the music. *rolls eyes&
At the end of it that conference, despite the hype I had heard, I left wondering how on earth the Christianity I had grown up with and loved could be 5 miles wide but yet an inch deep (or rather 8km wide but 2.54cm deep, if you want metric figures). I heard sermons that were entertaining but gave me nothing but air to chew on. I heard terms like awesome and majesty thrown around until nearly every darn thing was awesome and majestic that the words meant nothing. I’ve never been back since and going by that op-ed article, I don’t think you’d find me going back again (service or conference).
And @ SallyD, I once heard the main pastor at PlanetShakers, Russell Evans, say that he wanted his funeral to be a party in the church service. From my vantage point, that’s nothing much more than the usual shenanigans that go on there every week.
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Wonderful, thought provoking post. Thank you, not-so-dumb Ox.
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As a small Church pastor, I have a problem with the statement “small churches are the next big thing.” Not to buy into the Purpose Driven Church, but Warren is right when he implies than many churches are small because they aren’t focused on Evangelism. Plus, it’s down right hard to manage a small church and keep it afloat. I would love a bigger budget ($150k for the entire church for the year) so we don’t have to scrimp about what kind of staples to buy. I would love to be able to afford curriculum for all age groups. I would love to not have to worry about what bills are going to get paid this week. People who glorify the small church I feel aren’t really involved in one, or they don’t see the absolute struggle it is to operate one.
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Oh, just realized the pastor was preaching from Nehamiah 3:1. Sheepgate is an Eliashib-rebuilding-the-wall thing, not an Aussie thing.
Never mind.
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Yeah, I’m not buying the, “Most Atheists …don’t care if you talk about Jesus too much” line. Most I know complain about having been either bludgend by Jesus’ followers or are just plain angry. In either case neutural is not a disposition they might use to describe themselves.
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I’ve seen this over and over again.
I myself was “saved” (use that term very loosely) at an alter-call. Later I became involved and helped run a para-church ministry that produced cool concerts that included a Gospel presentation at the conclusion. We tried very hard to present the Gospel Often times however we found that we could never be as cool as Cochella or Lalapalooza. Jesus just isn’t “that cool”.
The problem is not methodology, but what the folks end up ultimately purchasing in place of what is called the gospel. It’s not even, “Jesus light”. It’s often event marketing with a moral platform based on teachings of Jesus.
I go back to Viola/Sweet – it’s possible to confuse the cause of Christ with Christ.
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60’s musician’s such as Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, and Kieth Richards, were often very good because they venerated and learned at the feet of some of the greatest original blues and folk players. Only one generation removed from their spiritual fathers, their experimentation was truly original and exciting. The next generation didn’t know about the Musical Fathers. They had to borrow and steal their licks from the 2nd generation. This process continues on into the present day. With each passing generation, the music becomes more derivative, thin, and cliche. Sometimes, all that remains is lots of flash, mega-decibel noise, and pretty veneer.
Plantetshakers Church is the Christian equivalent of what’s happened to the music scene.
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Any or all of the following: Australian Rules Football, Rugby League, Rugby Union and sometimes Soccer. In the article linked by Imonk it almost certainly refers to Australian Rules Football – Melburnians are absolutely stark raving mad about it.
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“Fairy floss” — what an absolutely wonderful term! We call it “cotton candy” here in the US — still a nice term, but it can’t hold a candle to “fairy floss”.
I grew up in the US Assemblies of God (Is this another Aussie-American distinction — AG vs. AOG?) I recall my father, a new pastor at the time, effusing over a Tommy Barnett church-growth for a time. Trouble was, it’s hard to build a Phoenix-style megachurch when you’re living in a town of 2,000 souls total. Impossible, actually, if you run the numbers. (I have a math degree.)
I certainly sympathize with your plight, my friend. My own journey has taken me elsewhere, but I pray that you are able to resist succumbing to despair, wherever your own path may lead. Be grateful for all the good that you’ve been exposed to, while rejecting the dross — in whatever unfortunate quantities the latter may be found.
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Um, Kick drum!
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I don’t want the Spirit, I want a kick stand. Courtesy of Derek Webb.
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For that matter, what is “footy”? I’m guessing Australian Rules Footbal or rugby.
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🙂
That made me laugh and I’m an Anabaptist!
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From the context of the article it looks like the pastor was referring to a bible passage somewhere that was related to a gate for sheep maybe (perhaps in the context of Jesus being the good shepherd?). But then again, as both Planetshakers and The Age are based in Melbourne, Victoria, and I’m from Queensland (my current town’s about 2300km away from Melbourne) it is somewhat possible that it’s a localised phrase that I’ve never heard of (like every country we Aussies have different accents and different phrases depending on where we’re from), but unless someone corrects me I don’t think so.
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I was just thinking about that chorus today – I haven’t heard it in years Growing up, I thought it was maudlin and stupid and in poor taste – even as a kid, I knew that none of the Catholic adults around me, who were so proud of themselves for sending their kids to Parochial schools, gave a crap about poor people. And how much worse would it be if they only gave that one time because a sappy song at church made them feel heavy with spiritual signifiance for a minute? I thought the whole thing was shallow.
Later I realized that the sappy song is true when we bless the Lord and face the others’ needs without pretense, and that obeying God has nothing to do with feeling something in church.
“28(AT) “What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in(AU) the vineyard today.’ 29And he answered, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he(AV) changed his mind and went. 30And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. 31Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you,(AW) the tax collectors and(AX) the prostitutes go into(AY) the kingdom of God before you. 32For John came to you(AZ) in the way of righteousness, and(BA) you did not believe him, but(BB) the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward(BC) change your minds and believe him.”
The church, when it stops trying to be who it’s supposed to be, has a way of trying to feed our egos with Significance instead of showing us regular life, as God intended it.
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What does she mean by “sheepgate”? Somebody translate Aussie for me.
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Hi, I’ve been a reader of Imonk for quite some time, but haven’t got round to posting comments ’til now, but since I’m a member of the AOG in Australia (Planetshakers’ denominational affiliation), and I’ve been to both a Planetshakers conference (although never the church) and the Hillsong conference (someone in the comments mentioned it, or at least Hillsong United) I thought I’d chime in with my 2c worth, although this thread may be reaching its end.
My experience from both of these conferences pretty much chimes with the article linked and with Imonk’s thought that they and related forms of church are producing a generation of evangelicals who will disappear into thin air. The Planetshakers conference in particular seemed to me to be like fairy-floss (do you have that in the states? it’s sugar that’s been turned into a fine fluffy state – lots of air and sugar, nothing else). Looking back I wonder why I went, I certainly got nothing of lasting value out of it. The Hillsong conference was pretty much the same, although they had a smattering of good teaching in amongst the dross (a 1 in 5 ratio maybe?).
The sad thing is that almost every AOG church in Australia looks at these conferences and says “if only we could be like them we’ll have made it”. It’s enough to almost drive me to despair about the denomination I’ve grown up in and still love, even though my theology is fast departing from the AOG distinctives. (that said, there are some hopeful signs amongst some of the younger pastors I’ve heard preach)
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Read the post again. It’s not about style, but about style replacing substance.
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Choir lofts are excellent. Altar rails…. I don’t know what those are exactly, but they sound very nice.
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In many ways, J.S. Bach was promoting new church music in his lifetime, at a time when organs, clavichords, and even pianos represented cutting-edge technology. He promoted the Italian operatic style in German worship, which was met with criticism. The difference with Bach compared to many current worship leaders or even his own contemporaries is that he was rooted in scripture and the medieval heritage of the church. Bach in a way invented ancient-future worship. His music was objective in an era when subjective pietism ruled the day.
I don’t think the music, instruments, or music styles are the problem. They are neither sacred nor demonic of their own accord. What matters is the symbolic meaning that is poured into these things. There is a theological bend which typically accompanies modern worship – a semi-pelagianism which does use music in a demonic, oppressive, manipulative way to coerce the all-important decision. But this doesn’t have to be inevitable.
In Bach’s day, the enemy of music and the arts were the pietists. I think that should be a warning that there is always more than one way to fall off the fence. Modern instruments and music can be banished from worship while worship still remaining equally meaningless.
I find a link between this post and an earlier one on finding Luther. The way to prevent the spread of personal, designer spirituality is to give people the hope of the gospel that survives within and through tragedy: pressed on every side but never crushed. The gospel is not opiate-like escapism. The gospel gives meaning to the life we have, where we are. Give people the expectation of the resurrection, rather than waiting to be wisked away to a bodiless nirvana. Life in the real world has meaning. Church should prepare us weekly to live in the world, rather being an escape from it.
“And I’m happy now but when this good life ends, I know a better life begins” – Larry Norman.
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I went to an event in Australia that is nearly word for word his description. For the sake of privacy I won’t mention the event but his description is pretty much right on. Two guys spoke for 20 minutes about how if the teenagers just sacrifice a little bit they can change the world. They went on and on about helping starving people all over the world. ON AND ON only to then collect a donation to pay for the event! NONE OF IT WENT TO CHARITY OR MISSIONS!???! I left the event pretty dumbfounded. The “gospel” presentation was more about a bridge that collapsed than it was about Jesus – with, of course, many mentions of the footy and McDonald’s for that matter. When does Christianity start dealing with Jesus’ demand that we pick up our cross because I sure didn’t hear it there?
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iMonk –
Spot on. The evangelical movement is commercializing, pre-packaging itself right out of existence, and it seems powerless to do anything about it beyond seeking out increasingly slick 21st century means of transmitting a message from ancient Palestine. It’s a Catch-22 that will hopefully mute the Jumbotrons, Powerpoint presentations, and laser light shows, so that people can seek out the message of the divine without having to wade through a religion made largely irrelevant through its marriage to consumer culture.
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iMonk,
I thought it was about time an Australian chimed in here…
Great article on a great article. It’s nice to hear people from different cultures (atheist, and American) having a go at defining the endemic problems with much of the “evangelical” church in Australia.
I put “evangelical” in inverted commas because for most of Australian reformed orthodoxy evangelical means “bible believer”, though I understand in America it essentially means mainstream pentecostal, or something rather like that.
I thoroughly enjoy your site. Love the article on doubt. That deeply resonated with me.
I think the situation with your family attending different churches is a tragic indictment on the church, it breaks my heart to hear that, and I can’t understand the comment that it’s “not an issue” that came from one reader.
Really though, the whole point of this here comment was to point out that there’s another interesting series about an atheist’s encounter with Christianity going on at the Guardian’s (UK paper) website. Called Alpha Male. It’s worth following as part of the broader consideration of how we engage with atheists and some of the odd attempts to be relevant.
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The church I’m affiliated with started out with a very balanced presentation of the gospel; over the past 6 years it has morphed into “If it’s not super-slick gospelless salesmanship, it’s stripped down angry gospelless legalism”; both of which are equally grating.
And in large part is why I rarely attend church services.
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Or how about, sitting on TOP of a pillar?
(Reference to St. Simeon the Stylite, for those who don’t get it.)
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Quakers do the “stillness” thing. What this really means, is that they sit around for a long time doing nothing, until somebody feels the Holy Spirit wants them to stand up and criticize capital punishment.
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What’s the difference? One is for young people, and the other is for old people. Who can honestly say that they have “the Christian church and the Christian life,” and those other people don’t?
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In reading this and a comment elsewhere something occurred to me. The megachurch is a logical outworking of revivalism. Gone is the week long meetings with long repetition of music to induce an emotional state; today we have mastered that emotional manipulation into a much tighter time frame. Instead of being the only entertainment possible in a rural setting, they have figured out how to attract the masses in an urban setting. This is not to say that no good came of revivalism and similarly no good comes of megachurches, but rather to say that maybe this idea is not something new. It seems, on the surface for now, to be the refinement of prior methods, without addressing the problems.
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Well… shoving them behind a pillar is a bit harsh. After all, this is what choir lofts are for 🙂
Altar rails – yes or no? Your opinion? (Me – very definitely yes, and I want the cloth back too, and proper instruction in the use of the paten, sonny!)
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Yeah, now that I’ve finished taking the dust mote out of my brother’s eye, all I have to do is remove this whacking great log from mine 🙂
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Aren’t they really doing the same thing, just in different styles?
These concerts are all more or less like that. People know what to expect. Same for the more churchy-churches. I mean, this atheist said similar things about the regular church he went to.
And Orthodox churches may have different music and stuff, but when you think about it, you guys are really putting on concerts too. They’re all trying to make people feel a certain way, and maybe take comfort in following a certain routine. Oh sure, some of their beliefs are different, but most people are focused on the atmosphere and routine. Am I right?
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The reality is, these churches just can’t keep up the edge of entertainment forever. The world around them is better at entertaining anyway.
If I want to be passionately moved because of a light show and a rock music I’d go to a U2 concert!
Whatever happened to God being in stillness. Although I don’t want to get into a glossolalia debate here, this is also part of my concern. In churches such as Planetshakers the more charismatic gifts seem to always be associated with loud sensational music. I wonder how much further the message of the Pentecostals would go for those of us who are cautious about it if speaking in tongues were done in setting of quiet contemplation.
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Andy,
That is why I never say “I’ll pray for you.” I just do it, and if there is anything else that I can think of to do, I’ll do that as well.
Too many scars from the “Pray” but do nada group.
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Seems like the ‘worldliness’ of the mega experience is more of a vaccination against a real spiritual encounter than ‘planting a seed for it. Where in all that noise and activity can a soul hear that small quiet Voice of the Lord?
Soon, more and more noise will be expected, more excitement, more ‘awesomeness’, and then what?
What?
‘Desensitization is a cruel trick to play on someone who is earnestly seeking the Lord.
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If this were all there was of “Christianity” I’d be an atheist too.
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Thanks Curtis.
The “psychic torture,” I have found, is more in the intellectual pursuit, discovering gaps in doctrines previously accepted, and subsequent dilemma of conscience. I might be described as painfully thoughtful.
I will make every effort that I possibly can to bring my wife to see what I see, as hard as this may be.
I’m leaning Anglican right now. 😉
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Sorry about that, IM. I thought better of it after I sent it. I should have used another illustration. Thanks for the edit. Please accept my apologies to any that were offended.
As you can tell, you hit a nerve on this one.
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Hi LUKE,
You wrote this: ‘I agree, but I find myself moved by some pretty shallow lyrics sometimes. Sometimes it’s a matter of occasion when a seemingly simple thought can hit you in a certain way.’
Resonates with the time my family went to mass and they sang ‘The Lord Hears the Cry of the Poor: Blessed Be The Lord’ (not shallow lyrics)
and on the way home, my father took a short-cut in the alley in back of the super-market.
There was a man and woman trying to get food out of the dumpster. My father, of blessed memory, took them into the store and bought them some food.
Emotional reaction? Matter of occasion? Or ‘Something Else’?
That same day, the call at mass for the food bank items was for more peanut butter and jelly.
When the monseignor heard that, he said: ‘Peanut butter and Jelly! Haven’t the poor suffered enough? We all laughed . . . . maybe we shouldn’t have.
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The “worship team” should be off to the side, behind a pillar if at all possible. Their job is to help the people sing the hymns. They should be heard and not seen. And you shouldn’t have a screen up front at all- it covers up the icons.
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Hi Michael,
I know they have a clue. I just watched a speech by Ellis Orasco which was centered on Christ and the Poor. It was given at Norman Oklahoma at some kind of Baptist Conference (not SBC) and my friend Wade Burleson will be speaking there today.
The sermon by Ellis Orasco brought me to tears. Why? Because my spirit was moved by the Holy Spirit of God to know the truth of it.
I think we are closer to God in a soup kitchen in the barrio or the ghetto, than we are in megas and cathedrals. I think here of the Gospel of St. Matthew 25: 31-onward.
Shouts of ‘awesome’ and ‘praise the Lord’ are all fine and good; but I think at heart Baptists know that He wants them so much more to weep for the poor, and then to act on it.
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I second iMonk on this one. Brutal is one way to put it. Psychic torture is another.
From my view, there is no Protestant denominational distinctive worth dividing yourself from your spouse, with no violence done to integrity, conscience or reason. Whether it’s music, doctrinal emphasis, pastoral style, whatever – not even close to being worth it. Find another cross to nail yourself to.
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That’s encouraging, Michael. Thanks!
I do plan on taking the time to search and help my wife through it. The primary difficulty is that my wife’s father is part of the upper leadership within this movement of churches. As you might imagine, she has strong loyalty ties to her family.
Additionally, my intellectual disagreements with Calvinism will likely not be seen as legit. Then my motives will be, and to a certain degree already have been, questioned by those in leadership (there will likely be a witch hunt for some sin that has ’caused’ me to be in such disagreement). I’m 32 and I grew up in this church, but can no longer stomach it.
Anyway, thanks for the advice!
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Tragic. I wished she’d gone and said, “it was boring, all they did was worship, preach about Jesus as the Christ, pray, weep and love one another”. Come Holy Spirit and make us your holy, dearly loved (and loving) people again.
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First I’ll take my swipe at you, then I’ll agree with you. Since all in all I agree. (:-D>
Why do you assume there was no substantive gospel preached? Because an atheist wasn’t moved by it? Or because of the mega-trappings surrounding it all? Personally, I hang with atheists and other unbelievers every day, and i am not nearly so impressed by them as the “Casper Goes to Church Fan Club” around here. I used to be one myself, and I remember well the lengths I went to to discredit Christians and churches. I do agree that being “inside the belly of the beast” of church does blind you to some things that should seem obvious. But being blinded by the darkness of sin and death doesn’t exactly make somebody an authority on church. The fact is that when an atheist agrees with ME that someone I disagree with is silly, THAT’S where he’s become an authority (and where I’ve become a sinner, incidentally.)
I’m not sure why you seem to think that the bedraggled catholic and anglican present a better answer. Both have veered as far from the gospel as Planetshakers, just with different atmospherics. About 1 in 10 Americans is an ex-catholic. They both (evangy’s and catholics) have drunk the same cup: build it big, build it tall, centralize it, capitalize it, monopolize it. Both are just rival builders on the plain of shinar. “Let us build for ourselves a tower; let us make for ourselves a name.”
No matter what words are spoken, Christ is not proclaimed where men build temples of ambition, and power the gospel with fame.
[mod edit] The bit about “virtual spiritual experiences” was hilarious and chilling. You don’t suppose…do you??
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Yep. Robert Webber speaking of worship being the entire service is a huge breakthrough for my thinking. There are no “preliminaries” in worship. It’s the whole service. And ultimately it’s a way of life, per Webber.
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Not in the same way. I’ve been to many a Catholic service where there is a contemporary worship band, but they’re still usually off to the side like a choir (in fact, as a child, my folks led the band… many great memories). At my late grandmother’s church, the city’s oldest and arguably best mariachi band leads the music at the Spanish service. They’re a little more centralish akin to some non-denominational worship banda. But that’s more due to the physical shape of the church than them being a center of attention. Even in their case the center of attention is the alter itself.
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Yikes, that was embarrassing. But worth reading for medicinal value.
Although I still appreciate many CCM offerings, music was in the end part of the turn off for me, along with the emotional and cognitive manipulation and the constant polarising of everything and everyone. The house of cards collapsed further when I studied clinical psychology and realised that the so-called “charismatic” phenomena that people found so exciting and took as proof of God’s real, actual, awesome Shekinah Glory, are more economically and rationally explained as social delusions, culture-specific behaviour disorders, or even mass hysteria, which to any objective view gives no glory to anything except the mind-boggling complexity, subtlety and sensitivity of the human nervous system.
I hasten to add, this is not to insist that every instance of a so called “supernatural gift” has a psychological explanation, only to say that this psycho-biological awareness adds to the weariness I feel with inflated Revivalist and Restorationist self-concepts. The Holy Spirit blows where He/She will and needs no permission from us, but how often, after these cathartic howlings, ravings and fallings, is there any permanent change in thought or behaviour consistent with traditional Christian virtues? How often is there any real “awe” in “awesome”?
I’m mortified to confess that Evangelical familiarity or dull wittedness had prevented me from drawing Deveney’s conclusions about the Freudian symbolism in these songs. Now, I can’t believe I never noticed!! I mean, I noticed that it was ludicrously banal at times (“this is a church, this is a church on fire”) and at other times theologically contentious (“the Wrath of God was satisfied”) but I never noticed that it was also, well, just plain kinky. Until now…and I’d say that she has a point, except that too now sounds unpleasantly weird 😦
So who, if anyone, is being drawn in or consumed? Who are these “seekers”? Could they be Christian or church-exposed youth who are now in perpetual search of more “spiritual” excitement to whet their jaded appetites for sensual and emotional experiences? Whatever. One thing’s for sure – this is not the kind of faith which is capable of saying, “O Death, where is thy sting? Grave, where is thy victory?”
I wonder what funerals are like at the Planet Shakers.
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Another cheer for Martha!
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I agree with Miguel. Why do we need to see the worship team? The whole set-up communicates a message: performers on stage in dark auditorium under theater lights, audience in theater seats, performance about to begin.
In my small Lutheran church, the set-up also communicates: altar central with the sacraments and the cross front and center, pulpit and baptismal font prominent, natural light streaming through windows all around us with the beauty of God’s creation, colors of the season displayed, musicians off to the side and complementary to the main “performers”— aka the congregation, pastor wearing a white alb and colored stole to set him apart as ordained by God to lead in worship.
Which better communicates the gospel? The nature of the church? The focus of worship?
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Peter,
In the past 15 years I have been involved with four different churches. Two of them closed, and it is too long of a story to say why we moved on from the third. In each case it was a long drawn out interaction with my wife and exploring of options over several months before we were able to settle on something that worked for both of us.
Take the time, see if you can explore together, visiting other churches maybe once a month until you find something that both of you can feel comfortable with.
Evangelicalism is a pretty big tent. Perhaps there is a congregation/pastor in your area that you both can feel comfortable with. In my current church I have never found that I have had to check my “integrity, conscience, and reason” at the door, and have found that this particular church is made up of similarly minded individuals. So perhaps there is something out there that will work for both of you.
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Martha,
Here is my take on worship.
Worship is not about a particular style of music it is about our response to God.
God desires for us to be honestly seeking him, to be honestly responding to what he has done for us, and to love him with all our heart and soul and mind and strength. This is what true worship looks like. If the music helps us to respond in this way, great! If not, we still have the responsibility of giving God the honor he is due.
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Great! Do I now don a Geneva gown and start bashing the pulpit with my fist? “There’ll be no butter in Hell!” 🙂
As I said, we run the opposite direction, in which we maybe have what I’ve seen referred to as the “four-hymn sandwich” (entrance hymn, one before, one after Communion, exit hymn) probably sung by enthusiastic amateur volunteer guitar strummers (God bless ’em) and no real congregational involvement.
There must be a happy medium?
Oh, and I forgot to say this yesterday *is ashamed* (Belated) Happy Feast of the Transfiguration!
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Again, this is something I have no idea of. If I tried translating “worship team” into terms I’d be familiar with, I’d probably think of the priest and the acolytes, and maybe the lectors and Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist.
It would never dawn on me to think of the choir.
I don’t know if American Catholicism is doing this; anyone of my American confreres able to enlighten me? Do American Catholic churches have worship teams and worship leaders?
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Congratulations Martha. You have JUST understood what this entire blog has been lamenting for 8 years. You are now a better evangelical than 90% of all evangelicals.
This is why I’m in the “evangelical wilderness.”
Welcome to our world.
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Now see, here is the part that makes my head spin.
And I don’t want to sound like a proselytising Catholic who’s criticising the non-Catholics, because that’s not my intent, and we’re just as bad in the other direction.
But I did have a real moment of cognitive dissonance (fancy term, heh?) when I tumbled to it that by “worship leader”, people meant the person in charge of the music.
I was going “But…but.. the pastor? minister? whatever you call the guy on the altar? okay, you don’t call it an altar, probably, but… but…”
And that’s the head-spinning bit for me. Prayer isn’t worship, listening to the Scriptures isn’t worship, the service of the Lord’s Supper/Communion isn’t worship.
Worship means singing along (or more like, reading some of these posts, sitting and listening) to sub-rock songs. Worship means having a band (an actual band, with drums and guitars) playing and a soloist warbling.
That’s worship? Or a rock concert for the formerly hip and the non-hip (amongst whom I’d include myself, so not sneering)?
Seriously, as an interested, fascinated, and rather frightened outsider, when did “worship = watered-down secular music” become the equation? (and yeah, I know about mediaeval and early renaissance drinking songs and the like being used as the motifs for Masses a lá “L’homme armée”).
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Thanks.
For some reason “whatever” seems like it would be my integrity, conscience, and reason.
I’m trying to avoid it. But is seems inevitable if I’m to survive as me.
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This article was sad, but not entirely surprising. One part in particular stood out to me:
“Planetshakers is a megachurch, which is like a spiritual mega-meal deal. Pizza, Coke, chocolate bavarian. If we could masticate it for you and pump it into your stomach, we would. Because we love you. And so does Jesus.”
Unfortunately, a great many churches (but certainly not all) already do this, and I think this ties in with the numerous statistics of “y percent of people accept Christ by x age”. The method of “masticating” the message/gospel/doctrine and “pumping it into [the congregation-audience’s] stomachs” works primarily with those whose critical thinking skills have not yet been developed, or are currently unused. I think that’s at least part of the reason why so many people my age (20s) are not attending churches. I think a lot of people out there are longing to go to a church where the message is more than “here, swallow”.
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Wasn’t paying close attention. Edited. Thanks.
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It’s been a brutal adjustment. Avoid at all costs. It took me many months, and professional counseling to even get started on adjustment. Nothing but pain and no one understands. Do whatever to avoid.
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Great insight.
How do you deal with your family going to different churches? Is it difficult to build the family together, being that you have different theological beliefs?
I ask because I have strong disagreements with Calvinism/Evangelicalism, but my wife loves it still. It is causing a bit of a dilemma. Any advice?
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The church that we recently left start showing the worship team on the screens this year. The lyrics were at the bottom of the screen as well. I found it to be a distraction. Not sure why they needed to start doing this.
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Fr. Ernesto had a blog series a while back about the lack of musical instruments in Orthodox worship …
http://www.orthocuban.com/tag/eastern-orthodoxy/
I found it enlightening and educational; and I think it speaks to the power of worship to transcend cool tech and music elements.
In my own tradition, I recall a All Saints Mass in which all the music was performed by a bell choir, which was simultaneously engaging, worshipful, and also – I assume – very “low tech.” Perhaps there’s a way to engage and allure people with “ancient tech” in music?
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I wonder if this is why Ed Stetezer has written about launching churches as soon as they hit 300 members. Pretty radical. Small church will be the new big.
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Well put
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I recently had an experience where I attended the local mega-church for one of their (I’m assuming) seeker driven services. And they offered communion at it… Not too sure how I felt about that one.
But one thing that did very significantly disturb me was the way that the music was manipulative. This article really hits the nail on the head for me, and helps me to express the subtle frustration I’ve lived with for years. I feel as if I’m automatically expected to rise and stand and lift my hands and close my eyes and shout nonsense lyrics at the top of my lungs when ever the band goes from a low energy section to the bridge where the drummer really “goes off like a frog in a sock”. I found myself simply unable to do it this time. I saw people all around me who were deeply engrossed in this form of worship, but I felt so overwhelmed with this expectation that, when the songs does this, you are supposed to have a deep intimate spiritual experience between you and God. For so many years I sought this in worship. When I did not experience it, I left feeling empty. I’ve seen worship leaders try to manipulate this experience out of people. But the most significant experience is the subtle suggestion that if you do NOT respond to the manipulation in the prescribed way at the right time, then what is wrong with you? Am I somehow so much inferior spiritually to all the other participants that I am not picking up on the “move of the spirit” during worship? Maybe if I had sinned less, prayed more etc… prior to coming I would be equally caught up in the rapture as my pew mates seemed to be. It was discouraging to say the least. I left feeling like a spiritual “outsider”. I started to wonder why I never experienced God in the glamorous way that all the worshipers at the service did. There should be so much more to worship than all this subjective emotionality. It doesn’t take a great deal of cerebrality for a “seeker” to form these conclusions.
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I agree, but I find myself moved by some pretty shallow lyrics sometimes. Sometimes it’s a matter of occasion when a seemingly simple thought can hit you in a certain way.
I wonder – how might we be able to tell when we’re experiencing something really spiritual or “just emotional” from a song? Or if we can avoid the dichotomy and strive for both?
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Sadly those do seem to be the popular extremes these days, yeah. 😦
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I’m still trying to comprehend the rationale for this…. Why is seeing them so important again?
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I am part of a small house church and it has rocked my world. We share in a Bible study each week that we have all prepared for throughout the previous week. We aren’t relying on one leader, rather we all come prepared to share what God is teaching us. My husband plays guitar, and we have a time of worship each week as well (although you could manage without an instrument for sure). One of the biggest joys has been incorporating our kids into the gathering. They are young, so we do certain things specifically for them throughout the morning, and then they are free to play as well. We always eat together afterwards, including the Lord’s Supper, so as to keep the focus on the gospel. This is a new thing for all of us, and we feel like this is a time of study and prayer, and part of that prayer is that God would show us how we can do ministry together. One particularly freeing aspect of the house church is how we are able to give so freely now. We had a missionary friend who had a need recently, and we were able to give. I see us being able to use our financial resources for the poor among us, as well as missionaries and missionary groups, and however else the Lord calls us to give. I don’t think this is all we will do as a group each week either. My husband has recently talked about wanting to have even more community, perhaps meeting together to eat and fellowship mid-week as well.
This has been the most refreshing time in my life spiritually. I don’t know all that God has planned for this body of believers, but I am content to rest in what He has definitely led us to now.
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Very interesting perspective. Having read all the comments I was happy to see (I don’t think) anyone blaming the non-believing attendees as the problem. I knew a Christian leader who (wrongly I may add) use to say, when out-siders (non Christians) would criticize things that Christians say or do as “This (service, book, song, action) was a private love letter between God and His people. You don’t understand because you are reading other peoples’ private “mail.”) I’ve never like chiches.
I find this point very interesting:
As people yelled, “Yeah!”, “Amen!” and ‘‘Awesome!” I wanted to yell, “I don’t get it”. I love the way religion convinces people by making things deliberately incomprehensible and you feel too shy to say ‘‘I don’t understand’’ lest you reveal your stupidity.
How many times I’ve been in church or a setting with a group of Christians and hear very emotional- laden conversations with lots of spiritual words, and everyone confirming with “Wows!” when I’m thinking . . . “What the hell are you talking about? It makes no sense but just a bunch of spiritual words thrown in a blender.”
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I have a real hard time with that maxim. Christ has to be delivered through a medium. Word and sacrament are the only ones he ordained. The rest has been up to us. I understand that when people say “Worship should be fun” they have placed “fun” as the highest good at the expense of Christ, but I don’t believe that the proper response to that is that worship should be “boring”. It is possible to have a band, sound system, and large auditorium, and still maintain a gospel and Christ focus.
Why does it almost never happen? Power in money corrupts. It is possible to do, but much harder to sell.
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Let me add…I know that many churches make it their goal to produce emotionally-engaging (manipulative?) services each week. Each one would probably say that Christ is what they are “about”, and that the weekly “experiences” are done to point to and support the gospel. This may be true in some cases, but regardless of the pastors’/worship leaders’ intentions, the question still needs to be asked, what impact are the “experiences” having on the people within the church? From the people’s perspective, are they gathering around Christ and the gospel each week, or are they gathering around an experience? In other words, if you took away the experience, what would the church be left with? How many people would still come each week? (I realize I’m preaching to the choir here for the most part).
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Here’s a question for everyone – my church (megachurch of over 3,000, just to give some background) just starting putting the worship team on the overhead screens, with the worship lyrics on the bottom of the screen. For a long time we’ve had the pastor on the screen during the sermon, but having the worship team is very new. Do your churches do this? Do you find it helpful or distracting?
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Theo – thanks for your comments. Many times there is an either/or mentality with technology. Technology in a church of more than a few people is a necessity. It doesn’t have to be flashy, but technical elements should be done WELL. Most people don’t have an appreciation of the difference between poor and good sound, lighting and video equipment. These things do cost money. But I do worry that many times we are somehow crossing a line of what is appropriate.
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*Sidenote*
Most atheists I know don’t care if you talk about Jesus too much. Out of the whole Bible, that guy actually had some good and useful things to say and do. Somebody talking about Jesus is treated about the same as someone talking about Heidegger all the time.
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I understand what you mean. Webber has been really helpful in this regard.
And thank you for your ministry on the web – it is helping a lot of people.
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I don’t know if I would go so far as to say it has nothing to do with worship or fellowship, but I would say if we place our discipleship eggs in the basket of contemporary worship (as was described in the article iMonk linked), that’s a pretty stunted form of worship.
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Modern day evangelicalism is having an identity crisis (hence this website). The question needs to be asked and answered: “What are we about”? Are we about music? Are we about emotional experience? Are we about knowledge/theology? Are we about attracting non-believers to our church? Are we about witnessing on the streets? The correct answer should be that we are about Christ and His Gospel. Each of these other things will have a place within our pursuit of following Christ, but when we elevate any one of them to a place of primacy, or a “must-have” in our church, then we have gone off track from God’s purpose for His Church.
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Mike,
I agree with you, and if you read a couple of my other posts in this discussion, you will see that. In this post, I was overstating the case to make a point about “relevance,” not to say that suburban churches should abandon the suburbs.
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Church is about the Body of Christ loving God with all their heart and soul, and loving one another (even your enemies).
This is one reason (of many) I left the institutional church, that “church” has become more about us being entertained, a smorgasbord of consumerism into watching a show and sipping on starbucks while learning about what one slick pastor wants you to know about Scripture – and then after about an hour to erase the guilt you can go back to the lifestyle you were living before you attended.
Well, NO thank you. Instead, find a group of beleivers that can gather and dwell on what really matters in this world … Christ, and Christ alone. It is the Supremacy of Christ as the head of HIS church, not ours.
Sad, I see it the same way an atheist does after 10 years of being drowned in consumerism.
Brian
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I’ve been thinking a lot about this as I help our little fellowship move into a more intentional order of service/liturgy/music/etc. I think often it boils down to a few things. 1) Are the symbols, music, vestiments, or lack-thereof an end inof themselves or are they there as tools to help us in Christ-centered worship? 2). Are we using these elements as a way of “forcing God’s hand,” creating an imitation of the Holy Spirit’s ministry to us, etc? Or are we using them as tools to help us open up to His ministry to us?
All the elements of worship (including the very order of service itself) have an emotional, intellectual, and even spiritual response. Whether that stuff is intentional or not, we are “manipulating” those responses to some extent by those elements. That’s not inherently bad. In fact, if it’s used to create a more Christ-centered worship where we are re-enacting the Christ-event and both speaking to and hearing from God, such “manipulation” is good. But when the gospel and Christ are put in the back seat relative to the elements (whether it’s smells-and-bells, stripped-down simplicity, or high-tech modern goodies), it’s crossed the line into overly manipulation.
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All manipulation is not equal. A person who encourages you to do something rash and a person who tried to get you to calm down and think things through are both “manipulating” you, in the broad sense of attempting to influence you.
To suggest a few criteria: Is it pushy and aggressive? Does it encourage you to suppress your own judgement and inhibitions? Does it encourage you to rashness? Does it create a sense of urgency? Does it appeal to suitably lofty motives? Does it have your long-term good in mind?
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Chaplain Mike,
NO! No! No! How about the rich suburban churches do a better job of exegeting their “Jerusalem” and learn how to sacrificially love those around them not simply try to impress them with entertainment.
The problems of the inner city are sadly obvious–go and witness.
The problems of the suburb are covered and subtle and insidious–try to find them.
Which is more dangerous? Both…we shouldn’t run out of the suburbs we need to be better ambassadors!!!
Read on to understand my point…http://tinyurl.com/napush
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Maybe a bit of real persecution of believers would cut the nonsense. I don’t mean someone making fun of Christian T-shirts, or mocking evangelicals in a movie. I mean persecution that forces people to apprehend what is important (the Gospel, for instance). We don’t need anesthesia in the form of this kind of “worship.” We’re already numb. We need to shake off whatever our drug of choice is whether movies, video games, music…whatever keeps us from being able to think.
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This discussion begs the question of what is considered “manipulation” and when does it cross the line.
If manipulation is the intentional steering of people’s emotions, most things at a church might be considered a form of it. Candles, stained glass and a somber atmosphere? A preacher dressed in robes, a suit, a Hawaiian shirt? Bright colored carpeting and murals on the wall? Aren’t all these these stylistic choices a subtle form of manipulation, instructing people who enter what the appropriate attitude and composure they are to display while there? Are they so different from dimming lights and singing acapella for a chorus?
So where does manipulation become too heavy handed and cross into the realm of “clearly wrong”? What are the guiding principles for making stylistic choices for aesthetics and worship?
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anna,
I wished you lived close to me, I’d be there
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Wow, that sounds rich and heavenly: God has given you something priceless here.
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That was a rather embarrassing read, especially the Mighty/Beautiful Seminars for Men/Women, respectively. Ugh.
Say, we should just record the Gospel backwards into our rock songs. You would not have to preach at all. If it worked for the devil, why can it not work for God?
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I very recently heard a well known “international teacher-evangelist” state his WEEKLY budget from the stage……wait for it….. 1.2 MILLION. His intent in sharing that nugget was to get us to appreciate his “great need” for ministry. I was sitting in the midst of 2 or 3 thousand decidedly lower class (financially) church folks. I did not dig deep…..but I did gag.
Paul, I share your pain, bro..
Greg R
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What was the author hoping to find? Fodder for an article? Wouldn’t I have a similar experience and reaction if I went into a club that catered to gays?
That being said, if we are honest with ourselves, we know that most of the author’s reaction is spot on. Think about it, honestly, if you are in this kind of a church. Everything is geared towards the experience. Yet, it’s a shallow experience. .[Mod edit]……….. No need to go any deeper.
I think that the collapse has already occurred. Just like the overall economy, we’re too busy being entertained to have noticed.
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I attend an Anglican church with no PowerPoint, no amplifiers, no light show — it’s just a small church. The liturgy is beautiful, teaches us and fills the sanctuary. We have prayer meetings on Wed. and Bible study on Sun. along with Sunday school for kids. We welcome the neighborhood homeless (and everyone else) for meals. The priest tells us God loves us and he reminds us to love each other. Is this “stripped down”? Doesn’t feel that way to me. I think smaller churches are the way of the future. And the liturgy is a meaningful way to participate. I was surprised when I visited this church because I was prepared for a stuffy, lifeless experience. So far from it!
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The best news EVER isn’t enough anymore. We keep importing the world into the Church. Where do we draw the line? When we can no longer distinguish between the world and the Church?
So what happens when the lights go out and the music stops?
-jeff
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How about if rich suburban churches would move out of the suburbs and make an effort to be “relevant” to the folks in the inner city, the poor, the homeless, the mentally ill?
I suspect their understanding of “relevance” only applies if it’s something that’s relevant or “fun” to the ones producing the show.
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Even if there were a “solid gospel presentation” given it is possible that the rest of the presentation actually undermines the gospel. I think we might do well to consider that the medium is the message.
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“Nevertheless, the issue remains how to proclaim the gospel in word and deed today….”
Down to earth, grassroots, building relationships and being truly human in those relationships. Being servants to our neighbors, being hospitable. Forsaking every impulse to impress.
The way Paul did it in 1Thess 2…
You yourselves know, brothers and sisters, that our coming to you was not in vain, but though we had already suffered and been shamefully maltreated at Philippi, as you know, we had courage in our God to declare to you the gospel of God in spite of great opposition. For our appeal does not spring from deceit or impure motives or trickery, but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the message of the gospel, even so we speak, not to please mortals, but to please God who tests our hearts. As you know and as God is our witness, we never came with words of flattery or with a pretext for greed; nor did we seek praise from mortals, whether from you or from others, though we might have made demands as apostles of Christ. But we were gentle among you, like a nurse tenderly caring for her own children. So deeply do we care for you that we are determined to share with you not only the gospel of God but also our own selves, because you have become very dear to us.
You remember our labour and toil, brothers and sisters; we worked night and day, so that we might not burden any of you while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God. You are witnesses, and God also, how pure, upright, and blameless our conduct was towards you believers. As you know, we dealt with each one of you like a father with his children, urging and encouraging you and pleading that you should lead a life worthy of God, who calls you into his own kingdom and glory.
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Something else to keep in mind:
NOTHING GETS STALE FASTER THAN OVER-RELEVANCE. EXCEPT PRETENTIOUS OVER-RELEVANCE.
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To anything promising Even BIGGER Flash & Glitz, of course.
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“I’ll Pray For You (TM)” is Christianese for doing nothing.
Say it to me, and I’ll paraphrase Babylon-5 for the response:
“You have a saying: ‘I’ll Pray for You’.
We also have a saying: ‘PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!'”
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too bad they seem to have no concept of what “it works” should mean.
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My writing partner says that in his denomination, pastors’ widows usually end up eating out of dumpsters.
Not just technological fads (PowerPoint Commando stuff and Metalocalypse-level lightshows/sound systems), but YEC Uber Alles, Pin the Tail on the Antichrist, and Culture War Without End Amen, and pastors’ widows have to eat out of dumpsters.
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in total agreement.
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Just throwing this out there. .. . (cynically) but I wonder how much of the ‘need to be relevant’ is to dress up a message as ‘exciting’ that many folks simply find it too hard to believe is true (i.e. all the supernatural stuff).
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The “service” described cannot be “balanced” with anything. It has nothing to do with worship or genuine Christian fellowship.
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>…which means the death of your program
Step for just a moment into the shoes of the more ancient church traditions and read that sentence.
Praying for you brother.
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If the article was even 25% accurate, it is an appalling illustration of what “church” has become.
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I love the line…
As people yelled, “Yeah!”, “Amen!” and ‘‘Awesome!” I wanted to yell, “I don’t get it”. I love the way religion convinces people by making things deliberately incomprehensible and you feel too shy to say ‘‘I don’t understand’’ lest you reveal your stupidity.
And also…
The crowd left believing they had been moved by God and touched by Jesus. They hadn’t. They had been seduced by slick video packages and had their emotional desire for love, community and certainty met by manipulation. It wasn’t the Holy Spirit; it was just people.
iMonk, you are right on in your analysis. This is simply abominable and unacceptable. This has nothing to do with Christ or genuine Christianity. More of us must become unashamed to say so.
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I have seen a progression toward this sort of flash and glitz worship style at my own church. As I’ve witnessed it, it started out with cool alternative music styles (which I’m all for, so long as it doesn’t sacrifice the lyrical meat), the church grew and suddenly found itself a bit of cash flow (used primarily for honorable things, btw, like church planting and such, but when you get a yearly budget of $5million throwing $100,000 (only 2%) at a new lighting and video systems is pretty easy to do), once you have all the equipment you naturally want to use it, tastefully at first but then the audience (um, I mean congregation) and/or tech crew get bored and want to do a bit more – although of course the justification is that “it is the experience today’s unsaved masses are looking for”. Before you know it you have smoke filling the room and strobe blinders firing off every time a song lyric says “Hallelujah!” Okay, we’re not there yet, but I fear that is the trajectory we’re on.
I think it is great to use technology as a way to pull down the barriers keeping people from hearing the gospel. Light, sound, video can all play an important roll in helping people open up to the gospel message – that is, there is a certain amount of professionalism that is appropriate for churches to aspire to (who wants to sit through a sermon where the microphone keeps screeching on feedback?). But, as has been discussed here, it can be a slippery slope to over using those resources to the extent of manipulation, or worse to the point of distraction.
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Atheist chiming in. Don’t ever tell us “Well I will pray for you”. It comes across as amazingly condescending, and you’ll probably hear a response of “Well I will think for you”.
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Rev. Gene Simmons:
You show us everything you’ve got
You keep on dancin’ and the room gets hot
You drive us wild, we’ll drive you crazy
You say you wanna go for a spin
The party’s just begun, we’ll let you in
You drive us wild, we’ll drive you crazy
You keep on shoutin’, you keep on shoutin’
I wanna rock and roll all night, and party every day
I wanna rock and roll all night, and party every day
(It’s OK. I twittered the sinner’s prayer to the youth director, so I’m saved.)
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I’m going to be a mild dissenter on this.
I don’t believe the writer in any sense meant to give a thoughtful critique on Evangelical shallowness. I think she was just looking to rip on Christians. Unfortunately, they played right into her hands.
Now, there well may have been a solid Gospel presentation. We won’t know one way or another, but by God, she’ll make sure we know there was a pitch to get money.
Yes, it could well have been every bit as shallow as she portrayed. Alas, her style of writing didn’t indicate she’d recognize any depth if it bit her on the tail.
It didn’t help that I felt like the whole article read like Alex’s narration in Burgess’ book “A Clockwork Orange”.
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x2
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I left a “clone” of Planetshakers in New Zealand about 4 years ago. I have been driven “emergent” by the kind of christianity this exact mega-church and its other antipodean manifestations. Although I’m not actively invovled in a church community right now. . .. in some respects I’m too scared to try church becasue I’m terrified I won’t find Jesus there. At least if I don’t know, I can hope he is there. . . going along might just prove he isn’t.
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Wow,
Brutal read Imonk. Really sad, but just amens all your post about the coming collapse. Makes me think that a good rememdy would be smaller, stripped down, mission focused, low financial maintaince churches. I think an even better word than church might be “fellowship.”
I’d like to hear some folks responses to this thought?
Just how stripped down can/should a church go?
I mentioned this idea to a state plant worker for our state convention and he said you would only draw lazy Christians with a stripped down church? The implication was you had to have programs every night and constant “stuff” all the time.
By stripped down let me give my own ideas. These are in flux.
A service every Sunday of Word and Table.
Music sure, but no over the top sound systems. In fact personaly I’d be glad if we closed in the Choir loft and just sang congregationaly.
Fellowship outside the church on a regular basis by group dinners, or by everybody getting together and doing an outreach i.e. working at the local food closet/shelter
Very loosely age grouped classes (call them SS or small groups or whatever).
So any ideas?
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A concert is one thing. This is the church. This is the Christian church and the Christian life. Where are these “converts” going to go to ever match this?
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iMonk, thanks for the good post and the article link. I recently went to the Arts Conference at Willow Creek and Hillsong United did a concert, complete with a fantastic light show, lots of volume and emotion, and great music. I very much enjoyed it, but I am also perplexed by the idea of a “worship concert” and couldn’t help but wonder if on some level people were responding not to Jesus, but to the great light show, loud music and slick video production. And the (literal) smoke on the stage for effect.
I wrestle every day with these dynamics because I lead a Worship & Music program at a small Midwest Christian college. I love Robert Webber’s stuff and I have a lot of questions and reservations about our reliance on technology, the money we spend on it, and what we’re teaching our students about this. I really try to lead our students in asking the right questions about worship. I also worry that a music/worship program that doesn’t feature all the cool tech and music elements will be seen as irrelevant and out of date by students, supporting area churches, and other worship leaders – which means the death of your program. I struggle with striking the right balance, but still attracting students and having a vibrant program. There is a good balance somewhere – one that is biblical but relevant.
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A fellow staff member recommended Gordon MacDonald’s Who Stole My Church which deals with the wonderfully popular issue of change in church :). I’d guess that the folks in Australia would say that they are trying to respond to changes in culture to reach the seemingly unreachable–that may not be the best way to say it, but I hope that you get my point. We all struggle with how to do this. Some resort to all sorts of what I call for lack of a better term: “hype.” But as the article, I-Monk, and others who’ve made comments note, that lacks substance as well as by-passing the gospel. Nevertheless, the issue remains how to proclaim the gospel in word and deed today. I struggle with this and get frustrated at times by not seeing more people, especially adults, responding.
It also bothers me that research by Barna and others indicates that if people don’t start following Jesus, by what is it now, 13, that the odds increase dramatically that they won’t during their lifetime. For heaven’s sake, if we can’t present the gospel in a way that reaches adults, as well as children, what is our future?
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I don’t know if it’s a death throes or a serious symptom we try to fix with aspirin (too many things like Joel Osteen and Hell Houses make this look like more of the same to me), but it amazed me on how shallow those worship lyrics are. That’s not a slam on all modern worship by any stretch, but the constant focus on cool God is and how we can’t explain it seems so banal. Incidentally, the song he mentioned as his favorite was one by Mike Guglielucci — the guy who faked his cancer.
The writers thoughts would probably echo mine to an extent: You change the key, dim the lights, go a cappela for verse, and you can get everyone to raise their hands at once and make sure they come back next week. All of the defenses will come out, but the answer is still the same: it’s blatant manipulation. The man who wrote the song about his cancer was fully aware of this.
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Roger that, Obed.
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If it’s not super-slick gospelless salesmanship, it’s stripped down angry gospelless legalism. And an alter call is not the same thing as the gospel.
OBED: that rocks.
Greg r
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I read Deveny’s description of the megachurch worship service and it sounds exactly like a Wesleyan church that I attended about 10 years ago. From the pastor trying to be way more hip than he actually was, to the kickin’ worship band, right down to the “real estate agent” tactics to get people to identify themselves as needing prayer, it’s as though my former church and the one in the article were formed from the same template. You hit the nail on the head with the remark about evangelicals and manipulation. In my experience there is no shortage of evangelicals who love to be emotionally manipulated through both music and sermons and then call a spiritual experience. Is this all aimed at the creation of a simple faith? Yes, but that faith is not really in Christ. Is resistance futile? Maybe. The fastest growing churches in my area are all heavy on kickin’ praise music, lots of programs and activities, and of course lots of law instead of gospel in the sermon. While I truly wish that I could disagree with your curmudgeonly response I just can’t do so.
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This post sets my heart on fire and fills me with joy.
By the beautiful and majestic grace of the Almighty God, we joyfully get to live counter-culturally not only to the world but counter-culturally to the modern evangelical scene in order to glorify God?
We get come play and be a part of God saving not only the prodigal son but the older brother?
It is only our God that is good. No one else can do it better.
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I wonder what those leaders would say to the stuff Robert Webber brings up in books like Worship is a Verb.
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Yeah, that was a rough read, ‘cuz it was too true. I’ve echoed some of the exact same sentiments in the article… and I’m a Christian! If it’s not super-slick gospelless salesmanship, it’s stripped down angry gospelless legalism. And an alter call is not the same thing as the gospel.
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I disagree. I think they believe they have more than a clue. I think they believe they have the answer, because it works.
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And this is why I have started attending an Orthodox church. Most Protestant churches don’t have a clue.
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what i find interesting about conversations like this is that the one thing i don’t hear from people is outrage over the incredible waste of money! how many people would who are called to be in ministry will never make it because of lack of funding? yet millions of dollars are solicited and spent by churches or event organizers on the latest technological fads. how many people are starving to death for lack of bread while we thank God for the money to buy new light show equipment? what do we really need to represent Jesus in the world? where would the money that He has given us be best used to make a deep, resonant planet shaking impact?
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I believe many evangelicals actually like to be emotionally manipulated by technology and equate it with a spiritual experience. (Timothy Leary, your phone is ringing….somewhere.) Perhaps we’re only a few steps away from Christians creating virtual worlds into which they can enter and have “spiritual experiences†as they choose.
Funny you should say that, IMonk. JMJ/Christian Monist did a two-part posting on that exact subject a month or two ago: Twitter, Tralfamadoria, and the Church, Part 1 and Part 2.
My impression was with the proper canned Christianese interaction scripts loaded in your avie, there’s no need to be there in your avie. (Hmmmm… if nobody was logged on and all the avies were Fellowshipping (TM) on automatic, could you tell the difference?)
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I’m saddened as well, and tad bit angry that the Gospel is handled that way. What was certainly *not* dominant there or at least Miss Deveny didn’t convey it to us, was a clear Gospel presentation to people desperately looking for it. I wish you were wrong more times that your are right…coming Evangelical collapse indeed.
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I would concur w/ your thoughts on this, iMonk. When will we learn that the Gospel is the Power of God, not our cuteness or niftiness? Thanks for the post.
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