UPDATE: Greg Boyd on Piper’s tornado. BTW, my commendations on excellent behavior by all in the comment thread.
UPDATE: From long, but right on point: The Islamization of Christianty by Udo Middleman.
UPDATE: Some of my own thoughts on the ’04 Tsunami. Also, Halden Doerge: Why John Piper is Dangerous. I first caught the attention of the Reformation Police when I blogged about Paul Proctor’s announcement that God killed emerging pastor Kyle Lake. This was repeated by some bloggers that would surprise you.
Jerry Falwell said that 9-11 was God’s judgment on gays, feminists, abortionists and other sinners. (He later apologized.)
Pat Robertson has repeatedly told us that hurricanes are God’s judgments on the east coast.
More than a few preachers have said that Hurricane Katrina was God’s judgment on New Orleans. Which is apparently why it almost destroyed New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary and left the French Quarter in place.
John Piper has chimed in before on what was going on when the Interstate bridge in Minneapolis collapsed.
Now Piper has written that a tornado in Minneapolis was a warning to liberal Lutherans about to vote on issues related to gay clergy. Here’s Pastor Piper’s original post.
When I was 13, I fell off my bicycle and busted a tooth. I won’t tell you what I was doing back in those days, but I got the message.
After you read 1 Kings 19:9-13 and David Sessions at Patrol Magazine, you can comment.
The open mic question of the day: How would you characterize this kind of comment? A bit excessive, but harmless? Arrogantly outside the lines of what any Christian ought to say in the aftermath of a serious or tragic event? Confused, but sincere? Proof that Job’s friends (“I know why it happened! I know!! Call on me!! I know!!) and not Job’s repentance (Job 42:1-6 “I’m shutting up”) are really the model for theology in the reformed camp?
The Internet Monk Archives 
Or a hair-trigger god always ready to sling thunderbolts or curses like most all of those on Mount Olympus. Have you ever read the ORIGINAL Greek Myths?
(The only two of them I’d ever want to deal with would be Athena/Minerva or Sylvanus. The former personified Wisdom and always seemed to act the most “grown-up” of them all; the latter was a minor Roman deity of civilized and tamed nature whose reputation was free from the usual sleaziness of that pantheon.)
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In my old D&D group, that was referred to as “The Purple Thumb of God”. As in “You’re scared to do anything because if you do, The Purple Thumb of God (TM) will come down on you.”
(In early-period D&D, Dungeonmasters were often nicknamed “God” because they created the background campaign universe the players entered and were in control of the “reality “of the game. Actually a pretty good argument for monotheism, as I have seen what happens when multiple game masters get at loggerheads. And for God’s benevolence, as I have also seen what happens when a game master becomes actively malevolent towards his players.)
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Oh, man, you just went there…
Lol!
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…the details of Katrina and where most of the devastation occurred (i.e. the seminary, not the French Qtr.)…
That’s because the Quarter (the original site of the city) is on some of the highest ground in the city and the Ninth Ward on some of the lowest. The higher you are, the more likely you are to be dry when the levees breach and the less likely you are to get hit by storm surge.
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We always crusade/jihad against the OTHER guy’s sin.
Never our own.
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Inshal’lah…
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is it any wonder?
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“He points to an unusual weather phenomenon coinciding in both time and place with an apostate church action and speculates on it, in a pretty mild manner.”
This was NOT an unusual weather phenomenon for the midwest US this time of year. It’s the NORMAL weather.
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So, if we do what Piper says,
no tornados.
And if we don’t, we lose our steeples.
Has Piper lost his steeple? This is nuts.
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A war is different from a meteorological phenomenon. Tornados are caused by a confluence of events including fronts, lows, highs, prevailing wind patterns, etc. etc. Look at any given tornado and you can probably understand the natural causes that led up to them if you have the proper meteorological training.
Wars are caused by conflict between peoples. In the case of the civil war, Lincoln wasn’t much wrong in his statement as to its cause. I would phrase it differently saying that our nation’s birth defect (or original taint) of slavery and the constant kicking down the road of the attendant problems had finally caught up to the US.
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To: All who ‘visit’ the Piper/Falwell/Robertson Room to get in on the ‘Act”
what’s with gloating over someone else’s sinfulness?
Are we to assume YOU are sinless?
Or YOUR SIN is somehow superior and ‘more acceptable’ before God, making YOU a judge of others?
It smells mightily of hypocrisy: like the Congressional leaders and their shenanigans getting ‘caught out’ after playing so long to the base as ‘good Christians’.
Enough. Clean up your own sin baggage. And repent of your judgmentalism.
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My neighbors are devout fundamentalist Christians and the wife has just had a relapse in her cancer and won’t live long. They wanted to sell their home and move closer to family for her last days but the deal fell through after all their belongings were in boxes. Their daughter is autistic and requires constant care that the mother will no longer be around to provide while the father works.
Do you think this is a warning for me to stop smoking? Or could one of them be gay or something?
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Lincoln’s interpretation makes more sense because with not a little help from history we can see how failing to deal with slavery and its implications within the nation led to the conflict. It will sound oversimplified to say the nation reaped what it sowed but believing that we brought the judgment of war on ourselves for how we chose to handle the issues of race and slavery would have some braod precedent in how God providentially disciplined Israel by letting them do what they wanted.
If Piper wanted to emphasize the ELCA going off the rails he could have used the verdict itself and not the meteorological event do do that. If it had simply rained would Piper have said God was crying tears of sorrow? What if it was a sunny day and nothing happened? Would Piper have said the burning fury of God was against the ELCA? For me the annoyance is that after doing such a good job of gently correcting Wilkerson’s doom-and-gloom prediction Piper turns around and does more or less the same kind of thing, claiming God is warning us of danger. Piper’s a fallible person and this is at least not a pronouncement as far gone as Robertson, Wilkerson, or Falwell but it would have been nice if Piper had simply not brought weather into things.
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“I thought he whole point in being Christian is so we don’t have to worry about all that old testament baggage. I can’t understand why anyone would want to dredge up all that old testament stuff.”
Wow. Where did you get THAT ?
Is that a particular denomination’s belief?
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Yep. Tower crashes. We think “Oh, man, that could’ve been me under there. Am I right with God?” Disaster doesn’t have to be a call for general repentance, but it can be if we choose to use it that way.
Really, disasters just happen. How they fit into the big plan of God is above our paygrade most of the time. And that right there is the problem: Christian leaders who think so highly of themselves that they issue statements on God’s behalf.
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That’s really the point. You can’t speak for God for or against that. The principle of “General Revelation” says that creation gives a general message from God. E.g. that there are disasters etc. can be a general reminder of our mortality, relative smallness, etc. such that it naturally leads to some sort of awe, repentance, or whatever. The principle of “Special Revelation” says that when it comes to specifics, God speaks and has spoken in the Scriptures. The logical corrolary to that is that we ought not put words into God’s mouth. I.e. if it ain’t in Scripture, it’s likely us talking, not God.
The backlash isn’t because of homosexuality and the clergy; it’s because Piper was presuming to speak for God in an instance where he has no area to do so.
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“A cheerful heart is good medicine …..” Proverbs 17:22
It is things like these that are medicine for my heart. I believe laughter is good for the soul.
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Doesn’t the Bible say God sends the rain on the just and the unjust? So how do people get to God punishes through natural disaster?
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“Does anyone deny that God is able to and has in times past used disasters and natural calamities to bring punishment to the unrepentant and reproof to his own?”
yeah, I deny it. I don’t need to beleive that God did stuff like that; it isn’t required for salvation to believe in those calamities or that God did them. To be Christian you have to believe Jesus is the son of God, you dont’ need to beleive that God makes disasters.
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Whatever life brings us—financial success or natural disasters—our posture toward Him should always be one of repentance. I think it’s distasteful at best and heretical at worst to imply that we can interpret the news on God’s behalf. His ways are hidden and mysterious and paradoxical and to imply that we ‘know what He’s up to’ is just dangerous to every believer and particularly hurtful to those who now live with the judgement that has been proclaimed on them. I’m a member of the LCMS lutheran church and wholeheartedly disagree with what the ELCA is doing. They should repent and turn back to God—as should we all. We ALL are like sheep who have gone astray—whether natural disasters strike us or not.
Thanks for a very spirited discussion and blog!
Blessings to you and yours,
edie wadsworth
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I was just speaking to a friend at the ELCA Churchwide Assemby and he pointed out that the sun came out the moment the announcement was made that the Social Statement on sexuality had been approved by the necessary 2/3 majority.
No weather divination from him though.
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As a person who lived through Hurricane Katrina and the subsequent levee failures, where devout grandmas drowned in their livingrooms, little children fell off roofs into raging water and people in wheelchairs sat helplessly while the water came up, I am really outraged that anyone would have the nerve to say that the weather is God trying to tell us something. If God were trying to tell us something through the weather patterns of the entire world every day, then God would make no sense.
What happened after Katrina — how people sent aid and traveled from all over the country and the world to help us, to cry with us, to pray with us … THAT was God trying to tell us something.
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“We are under the New Covenant. Our duty is to announce the Good News that God has inaugurated his reign in the world through our crucified, risen, and ascended Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. Our commission is to make disciples, to continue the mission of Jesus, who said, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through him.â€
Exactly, we are in the new covenant. God did all kinds of things in the old testament like natural disaters, plagues, etc. Jesus didn’t do stuff like that. I’d rather focus on Jesus. I thought he whole point in being Christian is so we don’t have to worry about all that old testament baggage. I can’t understand why anyone would want to dredge up all that old testament stuff.
We’re saved, we’ve got the love of Jesus, we don’t have to waste our mental energy on trying to square the natural disasters happening today with the old testament. It makes us appear superstitious.
If the Missippi river were to turn into blood, I’d probably change my tune.
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Addition to my comment: I do realize that the goal of their actions is to foster more opposition to the ‘sin of the month’ in their eyes. But, I think, when people end up as badly as Fred Phelps, you are getting into a very sick area.
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Is there a particular name for the syndrome where a religious personality does things like Piper, Falwell, and Robertson?
Or do these men simply sometimes exhibit a ‘lack of judgment’?
How ‘serious’ is all this, other than the fact that it damages credibility?
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God did all kinds of things in the old testament like natural disaters, plagues, etc. Jesus didn’t do stuff like that. I’d rather focus on Jesus than on the old testament God.
We’re saved, we’ve got the love of Jesus, we don’t have to waste our mental energy on trying to square the natural disasters happening today with the things that may or may not have happened 4,000 years ago which were attributed to God. It makes us appear superstitious.
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At http://www.wordalone.org you can see a similar analysis by a Lutheran.
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Sarah,
I don’t disagree with you. I’m just saying that Piper was asserting a proposition, not speculating.
BJ
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I am a little surprised The Baptist Press is repeating the story. I can’t tell you how many Southern Baptist churches were damaged during the 2004 hurricane season in Florida. What were their particular sins? Too much gossiping in the church offices?
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So that same weather system made it’s way through Ontario late yesterday as well. The resulting tornado north of Toronto killed an 11-year old boy at a day camp. Was his death secondary to God’s real purpose in creating this system or did the reason for the weather system change as it moved across the continent? Do you see the ridiculousness here?
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Doesn’t it take as much audacity to say definitively that God was NOT doing what Piper says he was? Aren’t those who speak that way also saying, “I know what God is thinking, and this is not it”?
The backlash appears more so that Piper tied it to what the ELCA was talking about, homosexuality and the clergy.
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“Obed” has it right. All real tragedies in this world work as God’s megaphone — He is proclaiming “You need me. Come to me.” I’m very uncomfortable when we get any more specific than that about “weather theology.” In this fallen world, the sun shines and the clouds rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous, the believer and the unbeliever.
I’m sorry to see that Piper has ventured into David Wilkerson’s territory. I like Piper a lot and I’ve been greatly edified by the extensive good resources available on his website. I hate to be a person who “takes sides” — I’m huge on the unity of all Christians — but I’d strongly encourage everyone to read N. T. Wright’s essay “God, 9/11, the Tsunami, and the New Problem of Evil.” It’s widely available around the Internet, and it’s the most Biblical and sensible thinking I’ve ever read about “weather theology.”
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Actually, I conclude that God must have a special love for roofers and tree removal services.
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Here is a link to a video that shows damage to the neighborhood. Honestly. Who can claim to know the ways of God so well that they would dare to make judgment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1f9-INUhR4
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Actually, the more I think about it, I am sure he would still attribute it to God.
Because, for a Calvinist of Piper’s stripe, who needs an enemy like Satan, when you have a friend like God.
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I am not sure how disasters should be a call to general repentance if they have no specific significance as God’s will. Is the point that you don’t know when a tower with your name on it is going to fall over so you better be ready to die in a state of grace?
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But there was nothing peculiar about the weather system. Those of us who have been tracking Hurricane Bill have known for days that this low pressure system moving eastward would keep Hurricane Bill out to sea.
John Piper was simply wrong when he attempted to make it appear the tornado was unnatural.
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It’s always someone else’s sin! That’s what makes homosexuality such an attractive candidate as a sin to exalt above all others: very few (none?) just wake up one day and decide to be gay.
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The idea that we should see disasters and tragedies as a reminder of our need to repent is fine. However, the idea that a specific disaster or tragedy is God’s specific message to a specific person or group of people about a specific sin is highly problematic. I don’t remember a Scripture that reads: “Thus saith the Lord: I will stretch out my winds and smite the steeple of the sons of Luther that they might repent of their meetings regarding homosexualty.” Speaking for God like that skirts dangerously close to blasphemy.
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I am not just saying that the difference between the Old and New Covenant mission is preaching judgment vs. preaching grace. I’m saying that the entire context is different. First Testament prophets were speaking to the theocracy and making reference to specific warnings of judgment written in the Law covenant that were given with regard to weather, invasion, famine, exile, etc. Yes, the pre-Abrahamic judgments of Sodom and Gomorrah and the Flood came upon the world as a whole, and are used as warnings in the NT, but they are used to point to the final judgment, not to an isolated tornado that happened to knock down a steeple at an interesting moment (from the viewpoint of one who already had an opinion about what was going on at the church). I can’t recall an instance in the NT when the kind of “prophecy” of judgment you are speaking about occurs. Agabus predicted a famine (Acts 11) but this was not interpreted as judgment on the evil Roman empire (why not?). Instead, it was seen as an opportunity for the believers to marshal their resources in order to care for those hurt by it.
Piper is no better “prophet” than the Dispensationalists who interpret every new turn in world events as a sign of God working to bring his prophetic plans to pass. Like them, he has Scripture. Like them, he can make a case. Like them, he ultimately sounds crazy.
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Here I go giving an opinion with surely much less thought given than Dr. Piper gave before writing his post, but here goes anyway.
I think of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16), when the dead rich man asked to return to his brothers, who were still alive, and warn them to repent. Abraham responded “If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.”
So the Lutherans already have clear passages of scripture that teach about homosexuality — if those passages won’t convince them, then a tornado won’t make the difference. But maybe if some are listening to those passages already along with opposing ideas, maybe a tornado could be a catalyst to cause them to listen more closely to scripture and how it is working on their conscience? So in the end it would not be the tornado that convinced them but God’s Spirit speaking through scriptures?
It seems that would occur in their conscience, though, and be a subjective interpretation of the individual, based on his or her sense of “hearing” the voice of God. Maybe they wouldn’t be sure — maybe God used that Tornado to turn their attention towards Scripture and maybe he didn’t — but that determination wouldn’t be crucial in the end because the important thing is that I that they turned towards scripture. I.e. a squirrel runs in front of my car, which somehow jars my mind to remember that today is my anniversary. Did God sent the squirrel specifically for that purpose or not? In the end it’s not crucial — the important thing is that I remembered my anniversary.
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I wonder if the tornado had hit his church, whether he would have interpreted it as a warning about his theology. Nah, I am sure it would have been chalked up to the devil.
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If people spent more time in the Gospels, they’d see how Jesus responded in Luke 13 when He was asked about the Tower of Siloam, which had fallen and killed 18 people.
I’m not sure how anyone can claim clarity in knowing whether God is judging people or not, but I’m hard-pressed to find any precedent for judgement through weather since the flood. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire, but every other incident of judgement I can think of seems to *appear* to be more mundane: military forces conquered the nation under judgement.
The O.T. pattern is that God sometimes sends a warning (Ninevah), or maybe not. The people in question repent (Ninevah) or they don’t. God judges in a way that nobody would recognize as judgement if we didn’t have the Bible telling us that’s what it was. And so on.
But hey, let’s not bother looking at how God operates in scripture. Let’s just grab a verse or two out of context, or a story from Sunday school, and use it to bash our favorite targets. Better to pick on *those* guys (the fish-slappers of Ninevah) than ourselves (the Israel that has abandoned God, using His name only).
I’m not Isaiah, and neither is anyone else I can see. I won’t presume to speak for God with such clarity, and it scares me that other people care so little about Him that they will.
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Can God be in control of a fallen world and still not bear responsibility? This is a classic atheist stumbling block.
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Imonk – thanking you for pointing out the details of Katrina and where most of the devastation occurred (i.e. the seminary, not the French Qtr.)…
I’ve found it really interesting that Piper cites Luke 13 (the tower falling on some worshipers) which happens to be a passage where Jesus declares that those “unrighteous” that were punished by this calamity were no more unrighteous than the rest of us, effectively negating the theology that says God caused the tower to fall as punishment. It also amazes me that people defending Piper at David Sessions comments have been quoting Matthew 5:45 (…and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous) to set this in terms of God’s judgment when that passage contextually is talking about God’s blessing. The question isn’t “Why do bad things happen to good people,” it’s why do good things happen to bad people, which all of us are. It’s about his graciousness, not our worthiness ‘cuz we’re not… surely Piper remembers that?
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Well, BJ you are right that there are ways to be more tactful, I’m sorry, I am constantly needing to humble myself especially when it comes to biblical convictions.
I happen to believe that the gift of prophecy still exists and that God gives that gift to people to call them to repentance among other things.
I think Piper has that gift, but don’t misunderstand I am not elevating him to a super human status, he certainly has his weaknesses.
Consider this event as evidence of his prophetic gifting:
Piper pointed to downtown Minneapolis and said (apart from what was in his notes), “A Bible study on the 36th floor of the IDS Tower with well-to-do business men is not mercy ministry, but it is crucial and valuable and necessary.†A woman came up to him after that service with joy in her face saying that she was visiting this morning and just that week had had a meeting with well-to-do businessmen on the 36th floor of the IDS tower about a ministry possibility and she came hoping for encouragement in the venture. She took it as an encouragement from the Lord.
How could you say that something as specific as that is not prophetic? In my mind that kind of thing qualifies him to be more open with what God has put onto his tongue. If it turns out false, then he is the one that stands before God and answers to his actions but we (Christians) do not need to slam him for it. It’s more God honoring to say, “we will not take sin lightly because God does not take sin lightly” and Piper is just trying to remind us.
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Piper is correct that all disasters, man-made or otherwise, are a general call for repentance (Luke 13). Piper is incorrect to suggest that the Minneapolis tornado was somehow linked to the ELCA vote on homosexuality. A tornado is extrinsic to a church body vote, so without a certain prophetic Word from God that connects the two, we have no basis for doing so. Is it God’s judgment or a coincidence? We can’t know, and so we cannot speak with any authority.
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The only way I would categorize these kinds of events, after reflecting on the tragedy, is to comment to myself that the seemingly random nature of these events does nothing to support the concept of God as we find Him in the Bible – the distribution of pain and pleasure is exactly what I would expect if it were the result of impersonal forces.
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Actually, I am on the fence about this. As I said at another blog Piper’s comment reveals his own biases about what God was judging when the tornado touched down. He primarily believes it is over the acceptance of homosexuality. The thing is, the tornado hit a neighborhood that was full of poor people, mostly of African American skin color WHO HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ELCA. You could just as easily infer from this that God was punishing the neighborhood for all the drug dealing that goes on there (and just for credibility’s sake I did live there, and that is no stereotype). Most of the victims are low income families–not very symbolic of homosexuality if you ask me.
With that said, I don’t think it is wrong to believe that God sends judgment through calamity. Steven J Keilor’s book God’s Judgments lays out a case that we can appropriately think in such a way quite convincingly. The culture of our theological moment in history says that claiming divine judgment for the explanation of calamities is utterly ridiculous. Why? A little more than a hundred years ago, Abraham Lincoln said the Civil War was God’s judgment on our nation’s acceptance of slavery. We can’t imagine a leader saying something like this today, but even by today’s standards this comment sounds much more plausible than the Piper/Falwell/Robertson stuff.
God’s judgments have a winnowing effect that reveal an almost poetic sense of justice. Throughout the Bible we see God actively judging the nations, first rubbing their face in their sin, and then punishing them by ending their influence or perhaps their presense in history. Israel as well as Babylon were subject to it, and the question is, why would God stop doing this today?
So in short, I don’t want to dismiss the possibility of divine judgment, but I don’t think Piper’s comment is very helpful.
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“so distorts their interpretation of life events”
I knew a couple that spent a huge amount of time agonizing over the meaning of every event and God’s will in every decision. Their lives seemed dominated by fear of making a wrong step rather than filled with any sort of joy.
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you scare me, Ryan.
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Does this mean God is sending us messages that we should ignore?
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â€I know why it happened! I know!! Call on me!! I know!!”
I really had to chuckle at this one. 🙂 That is just a brilliant summary of Job’s friends!!
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I guess I don’t see what is so clearly outrageous about Piper’s speculation.
We know from scripture that God, in some times and places, allowed or caused disasters as a judgment on the actions of humans. What proof do we have that He cannot or would not do something like that in the present age?
This outrage seems to depend on a worldview that rejects any kind of divine intervention in the physical world. I don’t think we can accept this as Christians.
I don’t put much stock in Piper’s speculation or that of the ELCA liberals who put their own spin on the event. What seems to me altogether clear is that the ELCA has rejected the clear teaching of scripture on sexuality. Let’s not get distracted by the meterological sideshow!
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To me, his theology always felt a lot more like a version of Islam at its core combined with a desperate attempt to tie in the doctrines of the Trinity and the deity of Christ. It just seemed terribly difficult for me to see a resemblance between the incarnate Christ and his image of God.
I have long maintained that when Christianity goes sour, it curdles into something closely resembling Islam.
And the Udo Middleman essay link at the top explains it in detail.
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Only seeing the general repentance application here is selective reading. Piper is connecting the dots: tornado-Liberal Lutherans approving gay clergy. — IMonk
How does such “connecting the dots” differ from reading the omens in a sheep’s liver or what is written in the stars? And notice how the reason for these “God Punishing You” connected dots is ALWAYS one of the three Evangelical Obsessions (1 – Evolution, 2 – Homosexuality, 3 – Abortion)?
From preaching like this, does God ever do anything other than punish punish punish?
tornado = Liberal Lutherans approving gay clergy.
Why doesn’t he just join with Fred Phelps and drink the kool-aid straight on the rocks instead of watered down?
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And the iMonk smiles a large Cheshire grin.
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The TR will not be commenting because Piper has been determined to be “ok” and close enough to the club to not attack.
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Just found a quote which is often used in AA, and which seems apposite here:
“The only thing you need to know about God, is that you aren’t Him”.
I wouldn’t agree that’s the only thing, but perhaps it is the most important – as well as being a key reason why we should refrain from “venturing an interpretation” that is actually putting words in God’s mouth – our words, which say much more about us, than about God.
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Haha! Nice.
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Paul,
I think I have to disagree with you. While Piper’s tone does not condescend to “holier-than-thou”, he seems to be doing more that just speculating. He begins by saying he will “venture an interpretation.” I take this to mean that he is making his statement, knowing full well that opposition is soon to follow. That is what the verb “venture” implies.
He then ends with: “6. Conclusion: The tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin.” As Spencer pointed out at the beginning, there is NO admission such as, “I think,” “Perhaps,” or even, “Is it possible?” Again, this implies that he truly believes his conclusions and has purposely stated them in this fashion.
In short, Piper is surely doing more than just speculating that it is possible God sent this storm because of ELCA’s position on homosexuality; rather, he is giving his interpretation of the events, which he holds to be biblically true.
Peace,
BJ
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After reading your post and through some of the comments, my next RSS feed to check was a Christian cartoonist’s sight “The Ongoing Adventures of ASBO Jesus” Serendipitously, here is today’s offering: http://asbojesus.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/774/
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I think Ryan is right to the extent that all disasters should serve as a reminder to turn from sin in general, as all pain and devastation is a result of the Fall. All be it, there are tactful and loving ways to point this out and there are ways that aren’t.
The problem I have with Piper’s comments and those like them are that they attribute a specific and personal sin to a specific disaster. As Brett pointed out God would need to show what His reason was for bringing about this specific tornado, and I for one do not wish to engage in reading God’s mind.
Peace,
BJ
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Ha – I think you meant to post that comment at The Onion.
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I’d characterize it as irresponsible and stupid, and one reason non-evangelicals think so lowly of evangelicals.
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You are right Brett!
To make a statement like Piper’s requires infallible and inspired support. Piper has both of those because his perspective is supported by scripture. Here are four verses that show that sexual sin is met with just consequences.
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.
(Leviticus 20:13)
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error (Rom. 1:26–27).
or as Piper noted,
The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.†(1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
Granted the ELCA in large has not committed homosexual sin but they are heading in a way that permits it. Hence the warning that is appropriate to the message intended for them.
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I must say that after actually reading Piper’s original post, I do not find it as clearly outrageous as both Michael’s post and comments here lead me to expect.
He points to an unusual weather phenomenon coinciding in both time and place with an apostate church action and speculates on it, in a pretty mild manner.
If we really believe that God CAN intervene in this fashion (regardless of whether we believe that he USUALLY does), such speculation is legitimate, and is a far cry from the definitive pronouncements of the likes of Robertson. In that regard, Piper’s comments on the bridge collapse bothered me more.
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I was just reading this article in Religion Dispatches:
http://www.religiondispatches.org/blog/sexandgender/1775/lutherans_reap_the_whirlwind/
…which makes the telling point that Piper’s God-in-the-Whirlwind theory does more violence to Lutheran theology, than their present wrangling over human sexuality and/or possible ways to accommodate the past few decades of theological scholarship and scientific study in that field.
Perhaps it’s time we paid attention to the long held Orthodox complaint that Western Christianity both Catholic and Protestant has tended to reduce the Bible to a set of propositions and laws, whereas to them Scripture is Iconic – a place to encounter Truth, not to parse and package it.
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While I find Piper’s expository work on Scripture generally pretty weak, I always thought that he had his heart in the right place. Now I’m not so sure about that either.
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The tornado hit before the vote–this has been distorted or stretched by the press, including by Ted Olsen at Christianity Today, just to make a better story.
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I believe the apparent difference between the situation of the ELCA and the situation of Sodom is that in the latter case God himself, by revelation through his prophets and apostles, interpreted that event infallibly. The issue is that there are only two kinds of such interpretation of events in scripture: that done by uninspired men, which draws God’s condemnation, and that done by inspired men, which is limited.
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Maybe John Piper will let us know who God is angry with today.
Or maybe Piper’s Theos IS really Zeus, casting around thunderbolts (and tornadoes) in a hissy-fit after Hera henpecked him one time too many…
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As in it was all predestined by God’s Will.
The ELCA’s fate written on their foreheads before the creation of the world.
Al’lah’u Akbar Al’lah’u Akbar Al’lah’u Akbar…
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They do catalog this stuff and should use it against us. I think this is some version of the prosperity gospel. Instead of accepting this:
” for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. ”
Folks want the world to be fair and good and evil “tidy”. They (we) want the God to reward the righteous (us) and punish the wicked (them), here and now. The unfortunate consequence of this thinking – that God selectively rains down evil on Lutherans who don’t ordain the right people – is that it invents a God with terrible aim, or selective hearing.
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Most of you are clearly biblically ignorant and overlooking the fact that God sent Jonah to pronounce judgement on Ninevah and God sent his judgement to Sodom and Gomorrah!
Jude 1:7 says,
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire,[1] serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Piper was correct to see this as a warning and make sure the world takes notice.
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While I wouldn’t categorize this as harmless, I wouldn’t say it’s a catastrophic statement either, although probably closer to that end of the spectrum. I believe that Piper’s intentions are solid. He desires to call people to repentance, and that, by itself, is a good thing.
However, it is clear that are other and far better ways to bring about calls to repentance, and I think Piper’s comments can have some significant negative effects for Christianity as a whole.
While you, Pastor Spencer, are right that he probably won’t get the press that Driscoll et al would, statements like these have the tendency to make Christianity look foolish and lose credibility. Plus, it makes one question the integrity and usefulness of the rest of Piper’s works, especially among those who are first introduced to Piper by this claim. Why would they desire to read some of his good works after this?
Pastor Spencer,
There is a reason we have lamenting, grieving, questioning Psalms and books like Ecclesiastes and Job.
There’s a place that our confidence in God’s sovereignty is expressed in silence. It’s nowhere to be found in this kind of theologizing.
Amen and amen! It is also quite remarkable that there are far more laments than hymns/praises in the Psalms. That Lamentations was written with the meter of a funeral dirge in Hebrew only adds to its sorrow, an emotion the Gospel still makes room for.
Blessings,
BJ
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I’m especially thankful for the update link to Udo Middleman’s article. This was very eye opening for me. I’ve long been uncomfortable w/ the way God’s Sovereignty is portrayed in evangelical (and other) circles but could never adequately explain my discomfort . Even though I’m not entirely sure I agree that the viewpoint comes from Islam (though the pov is the same, I think it was derived independently of Islam) Mr Middleman’s explanations of *why* it doesn’t work in a Biblical context was very helpful for me. Thanks again, imonk!
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“So what would have been God’s message if ELCA had voted the “right†way, and the tornado had still hit?”
Piper is a Calvinist isn’t he? If so then this had to happen so other outcomes were not possible.
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Ah, the clarity and simple justice of Buddhism. If you are killed by a tornado, it’s your karma. Might not be a bad way to go, all things considered. I’ll take a tornado over brain cancer any day.
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Nice reference! 🙂
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“And yes, if the Pope said something like that, I’d say the same thing.”
Hah! Well said Alan!
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Amen and amen!
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And still God spared Nineveh, even though Jonah would have liked to see them go down.
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So what would have been God’s message if ELCA had voted the “right” way, and the tornado had still hit?
There was a lot of this kind of attitude about in the Famine; there were perfectly nice people who felt that it was the judgement of God on the Irish for being rebels and Papists (and marrying too young, having too many kids, and not modernising their agriculture and industry, but now thanks to the workings of Providence, society could be improved, progress would flourish, and maybe even the people could be peeled away from the priests). Like Sir Charles Trevelyan, Assistant Secretary to the Treasury:
‘The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated. …The real evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the Famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people’.
From the Irish side, we said God sent the blight, but the English made the famine.
Before we start confidently pronouncing on signs and wonders, we should look around a bit first. Everyone who’s ever had their town flooded or a tornado hit is a sinner worthy of such rebuke?
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Chaplain Mike, I agree with your general point, but I also believe that prophecy continues under the New Covenant. I don’t believe those gifts ceased with the end of the apostolic age. The New Covenant era isn’t only about preaching grace in Christ (though it is that) — there is still a judgment ahead of us and human beings are still accountable for their actions before the Lord.
In this context, Piper’s call to the church to heed what may have been a divine warning and move away from tolerating unrepented sin in their midst makes perfect sense. My only problem with what he said was that unless he wants to say he’s prophesying (in which case, his prophecy would become subject to the judgment of the church), then he should not claim to know the mind of God in this instance, but should phrase what he said in a way that allows for him to be wrong.
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As a veteran of several hurricanes I can say that it is pretty common for churches to be damaged during violent storms. Many lose crosses and steeples. Crosses are flung down and pierce roofs. If you think about the placement and shape, this should not come as a surprise.
Could God do this, deliberately?
I am certain that I am incapable of comprehending all that is God. I am certainly not qualified to speculate on the motives of God. If anyone thinks they understand everything about God, they are talking about a god of their own invention.
I have experienced things that could have a natural explanation or could be God’s intervention. I can’t claim to know the answers. But I find it arrogant to think that God has some special interest in condemning the same people we condemn.
Piper also attempts to make the tornado sound unnatural. I see nothing unusual in the system that generated the tornadoes. So this puts me off from the start.
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(Yuck. Pardon my spelling.)
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I don’t think Piper’s use of Luke 13 is wrong. God is always telling everybody to repent and anytime we are reminded of that is good.
What the ELCA, and other mainline liberal churches are doing is denying that anybody deserves to die for their sin, or in fact, that there are any sins (other than being conservative). So, they are in special need of a reminder that they too need to repent.
God knocking down the cross on the sinning church while they meet to approve sin is a rather remarkable reminder to repent.
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Think I’ll try that. Make a holy ass of myself to sober others up. Sounds like the Great Commission to me.
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I recommend you read iMonk’s post on being “too God-centered”— https://internetmonk.com/archive/on-being-too-god-centered.
Can’t we all just be like Job and shut up once in awhile so that we don’t continue to embarrass ourselves with our continual God language? Can’t we just be human and speak according to our limitations occasionally? Please.
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Just the other day I was sure the MSM had found its “right-wing Christian wacko” replacement for Jerry Falwell by tapping Sarah Palin as the new go-to. John Piper would have been my least likely candidate. Though a quasi-national presence, Piper doesn’t have quite the cachet, but it will be interesting if the MSM starts scrutinizing him more often for off-the-wall statements (even if they aren’t necessarily off the wall).
And BTW, I was glad that Falwell said what he did about 9/11. Even if it was not truly the case, it needed to be said if for no other reason than to sober us up. I was never a full-on supporter of his, but he disappointed me by backing down from his statement. Say it if you must and go down in flames, but don’t retract unless you’re clearly sinning.
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God’s prophets in Scripture had a unique role. They were raised up to speak truth to Israel’s kings and religious leaders in a theocracy, and occasionally to speak to the surrounding nations about their sins in dealing with God’s chosen nation. They called people back to the covenant and foretold what God would do in bringing a new covenant. The judgments they spoke about were always in this context.
We are under the New Covenant. Our duty is to announce the Good News that God has inaugurated his reign in the world through our crucified, risen, and ascended Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. Our commission is to make disciples, to continue the mission of Jesus, who said, “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through him.”
I can’t for the life of me see how trying to connect the dots between some tornado and a discussion about how we should treat the homosexuals among us contributes to fulfilling our mission.
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But a lot of us think he’s tremendous!
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Should read “This does not…”
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I once heard a wise preacher say that wisdom is seeing God’s hand in every circumstance in your life – that still doesn’t give you the meaning of the event, but you look for it. I think the same goes for epic events. Wilson says this in the piece I linked:
his does not yet tell us why God has done this—that has to be discussed on other grounds—but we have to begin by acknowledging that He has done it, and that He has a reason for it. This is inescapable. When we say that this happened as a judgment, we are chided or rebuked for pretending to peer into the mind of God. But no one is rebuked for saying that God did all this to “bring us together.” We all assign meaning to events, and if we believe in God, the meaning we assign is assumed to be His doing. But when we assign meaning, we have to be careful to do so in accordance with the teaching of Scripture. Where in Scripture does God visit disaster upon a people to “bring them together”? And how many countless times does He visit judgment to bring them to repentance?
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No, we shouldn’t, because we aren’t privy to “what” the point was unless you believe you have special prophetic insight a la Mr. Falwell and Mr. Robertson.
I’ll say it again: No one is denying God’s sovereignty and you know it. If you don’t like it that some people are less certain than Dr Piper is of the specific intentions of God in letting the wind blow then I’m sorry, but that’s seems to be the majority report in Christianity as I understand it.
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Except that Piper totally misinterpreted the passage! Jesus was calling the DISCIPLES to repent, not saying the falling of the tower was a call to repentance for those who experienced it! The point is, such lessons are a call to me to repent lest I face God’s judgment, not point my fingers at anyone else.
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Well, if we all agree that God is sovereign, then we should be arguing *what* the point was, not *if* there was a point, right?
Wilson covered this after 9/11:
http://www.credenda.org/issues/13-4basicissues.php
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Fine. If you think someone here is denying God’s sovereignty, then I can’t be of any real assistance. You and I both know that’s neither the issue with any objection nor is it the contention of any commenter.
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I don’t think so. If God controls everything, then he controls the weather. If there is a tornado, he caused it. We can debate what the point of that tornado was, and of course we can’t say with God-like certainty, but I don’t see why it is so impossible to believe that God punishes (gasp) people anymore.
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Let me inform those of you who wonder where your comment is….
“So God doesn’t control the weather” is better translated “So….a bunch of unbelievers!” Go read my piece on the Tsunami, esp the sermon outline linked in it. Tell me that I don’t believe God is sovereign.
Everytime a discussion of Piper’s pronouncements appears, we get this tactic: “So, if you don’t agree, you must reject sovereignty itself.”
That’s a tactic and it is an insult to everyone involved in the discussion.
And those of you claiming this is prophetic have no more evidence for that claim than Kim Clement.
BTW, I am waiting for the cessationist response squad to decide if they want to accuse Piper of being charismatic or defend him for being reformed. Should be fun.
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As a former devotee of Pastor Piper’s teaching, I’m thankful for all that I learned from him (especially his love of Scripture, his passion for justice, and his emphasis on finding our joy in God). While I did my best for years to defend him when he made these types of comments, I can no longer do so. I know that Trinitarian doctrine and a very high Christology are key components of his teaching, but comments like these (among other things) cause me to wonder just how much of his image of God comes from the Incarnation and how much of it is imported from somewhere else. To me, his theology always felt a lot more like a version of Islam at its core combined with a desperate attempt to tie in the doctrines of the Trinity and the deity of Christ. It just seemed terribly difficult for me to see a resemblance between the incarnate Christ and his image of God. Granted, I’ve never discussed this with him personally, so he might be able to correct my understanding of what he believes. But that’s an honest characterization of my experience during the time that I studied him most deeply. It’s also the reason why I moved away from Pastor Piper’s teaching and moved towards theologians who place much more emphasis on the Father/Son/Spirit relationship rather than God’s sovereignty or passion for his own glory. My prayers are with Pastor Piper and with the ELCA.
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It’s not part of his job description, but it is the reality of who he is. He’s a big deal. People know him–and they care what he thinks. If I wrote that on my blog, five or six people might see it. But Piper’s different. By “called upon,” I didn’t mean by God. I meant that people ask his opinion about stuff, and he responds. The sheer volume of solicitations he gets for comments, etc. increases the likeliness that he’ll say something like this.
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What? How did he acquire that leadership role? Where is it in a pastor’s job description? What does a minister of the Gospel care about “significant national events?” Even if that is part of his calling, who tunes the filter for what counts as “significant?”
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I hate to say that everyone does it, but I think it’s true. A few years ago, John Michael Talbot asociated mid-west tornadoes with the invasion of Iraq.
I think it’s also an outward expression of the angst that most evangelicals live under: my hidden sin will find me out. We live under the constant fear of God’s wrathful reprisals attacking us when we least expect it. Of course an evangelical will lash out at someone who openly lives “in sin”, because we find some divine injustice in why we wallow in our guilt while others don’t feel that same knife hanging over them. This is why we need Luther – particularly his commentary on Galatians. If Christ can free Christians from the curse of the law, he may also free the world from the curse of cranky Christians.
It’s also a lot of superstition that has crept into the church. Blame bad things on the stranger among us. He turned me into a neut! Well, I got better.
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The point still stands. I need to repent & this particular calamity is a good reminder that I need to do so. I don’t agree w/ the connection, however strong one finds it to be. However, I do agree that the larger point concerning necessary repentance is valid.
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I haven’t read all of the back info here, but I do have one question.
Does anyone deny that God is able to and has in times past used disasters and natural calamities to bring punishment to the unrepentant and reproof to his own?
I’m not saying that is what has happened in every situation, but it is possible.
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Has Piper lost it?
finitum non capax infiniti
http://aboulet.com/2009/08/20/has-john-piper-lost-it/
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On the one hand, Piper’s comment is typical of Reformed-types. He references Providence and throws in some proof-texts and Puritanical weather theology for good measure. On the other hand, his comment was probably a lapse in judgment. Piper would admit that it is uncalled for to presume to know the mind of the Lord regarding meteorological divine retribution.
I hope Piper offers a clarification or apology of some sort. If he does, I will chalk it up to the fact that he is a national leader who is called upon to comment about every significant national event (atmospheric or otherwise) and so he is bound to, on occasion, make a bone-headed comment. It’s the law of averages and it happens to everyone. I’m willing to give him a mulligan on this one if he admits a mistake.
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What’s to stop someone from interpreting the tornado as a sign from God that the ELCA had better not fail to stop oppressing and discriminating against homosexuals? Maybe it was a shot across the bow. Twister hermeneutics!
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Back in my agnostic days I would have merely ridiculed it.
…Today, I still ridicule it.
I read Piper’s post and I have no idea what it has to do with The Good News of Christ Our Savior.
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I can’t say I’ve ever been a major fan of Piper’s, but I always regarded him as a level-headed fellow and not one to say something so outlandish as this.
I’ve posted more complete thoughts on my blog, but I’d like to clarify for those who regard Piper as a spokesperson for Reformed Christianity (which he certainly is not): this is not the historic Reformed doctrine of divine sovereignty. This is tea leaf reading, nothing more.
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What troubles me most about pronouncements like this, beyond the very serious theological problems with them, is the fact that while they may generate some controversy among believers, the real damage they do is to seekers and observers of Christianity, who might otherwise be drawn to it. To those folks, silliness like this pronouncement reduce the faith once for all delivered to the saints, and the good news of Jesus Christ, to silly superstition and paranoia. And they do this mightily because they tend to get more publicity than, for instance, a solid expository and teaching sermon on Sunday. In this case, a little PR savvy might serve the cause of Christ very well.
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There are tornado warning in Northeast Ohio right now thanks to that same system, which has moved east. Maybe John Piper will let us know who God is angry with today.
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Fr. John Zulhsdorf is not “many Roman Catholics.”
He embarasses the hell out of a lot of us.
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“Didn’t the Hebrew prophets in the OT often link natural events to the judgment of God?”
To many people today, me at times also, it’s hard to wrap our heads around the fact that the OT covers about 4000 years. Give or take a few. What seems to us like a constant “God imposes his judgment” is really a series of events separated by and average of 50 years or so each. With really some very long gaps. (I have no idea how many judgments there were but if there are 80 that translates to 50 years. We seem to have these judgments every few months according to the list of prophets at the beginning of this blog entry.
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He does connect the dots specifically, but then he generalizes it. He says: The tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin. “All of us” is key. Also he doesn’t just say, “Turn from the approval of homosexuality,” but “Turn from the approval of sin” in general.
I do, however, agree that we should not analyze every little thing for messages from God, but I guess I think there is something to the idea of general, natural revelation. God speaks through nature though not in a particular way. So….I would say Piper’s very final conclusion of the general repentance is correct, but anything more specific is going too far.
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MOD Note: I deleted Sonja’s comment.
I agree about the importance of caring for the poor … but wasn’t that was a little overheated, sonja? Jesus’ rebuke to the Pharisees was “these things you should have done without neglecting the others.” He didn’t say the first was wrong but that it was wrong to pursue the first at the expense of the second. Every Christian (if I extrapolate from my own struggle and that of people I know) is tempted to simplify what Christ calls a person to be by doing “the one” and neglecting “the other”. Part of why I don’t think what Piper said is helpful is because it is a statement that will get sucked into the vortext of American either/or spirituality.
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Didn’t the Hebrew prophets in the OT often link natural events to the judgment of God? I’m not saying Piper is Amos, Joel, or Jeremiah, but people in the days those prophets lived must have thought they were crazy, and maybe a little dangerous, too.
To say that God sends rain on the just and the unjust is not to say that God never judges individuals/nations for their sins (although if Piper is correct in his judgment, this would not be so much a judgment as a warning). He does. There are countless examples in Scripture of God doing just such a thing (Herod being eaten up with worms for self-exaltation, Israel’s captivity because of their idolatry, prophecies against pagan nation in Isaiah, etc.).
As far as I know, Piper isn’t claiming the same kind of inspiration as Amos, Joel, or Jeremiah, so I think he should have phrased his post in the language of possibility rather than declaration. Still, it isn’t off-base theologically to say that God could do precisely the sort of thing that Piper thinks He did.
My only problem with Piper is that if he’s going to post something like this, he should phrase it as “look at the coincidence, this may be what is going on,” instead of declaring that that is indeed what is going on, unless he is going to go ahead and claim that he is prophesying in God’s name.
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There was nothing peculiar about the low pressure system that spawned the tornadoes, and is now moving east.
This same system well keep Hurricane Bill offshore of the Eastern Coast of the US. No conclusions about that?
I watched video of the tornado and it knocked down a bunch of mature trees and damaged roofs. Was God also angry at the trees and the people that lived in the house, or were they merely collateral damage.
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We need to preach the Gospel, not offer explanations of events so we all know how much we should believe we can understand about God’s sovereignty.
Only seeing the general repentance application here is selective reading. Piper is connecting the dots: tornado-Liberal Lutherans approving gay clergy.
The constant need to specifically explain mystery and to apply it to certain sins is a hopeless effort. Those who believe the Gospel point to Christ, not to tornadoes, as God’s Word to the world.
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I think this whole issue needs to be approached with caution. We can’t say we know for certain that this is God’s judgment, but if this is a warning and call to repent (as Piper says), can we ignore it flippantly? That was often the problem in the Old Testament; everyone was ignoring the calls to repentance. Then armies came in killing, destroying, and sending into exile. I am not saying America is Israel (just in case that crosses your minds), but the Church is. We as a church are still being called to repent. God is still calling us to repent. Whether we see a storm or a sunny day, we should recognize God’s call to repentance; it shouldn’t be just the big things that point us to God, but the little things as well.
Some have said this is Piper acting as though he knows the mind of God. Of course it is! God has made part of his mind very clear in Scripture: the part that says Repent and Believe. That is what Piper is calling us to.
While Piper is pointing out the connection to homosexual ordination, he doesn’t limit it to that. He isn’t saying that only those Lutherans should repent, we all should repent of a sin we all commit: accepting sin within the Church.
We really should be careful calling something a judgment, however. The way we know that the Babylonians and the Assyrians were judgments is because God told us so in the Bible. We cannot say anything else is a judgment til the final judgment. We can, however, look at things and be pointed to God, which should always lead to repentance.
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this retrospective prophecy by John piper is in the same camp as the hindsight prophecy that a pastor over here in Australia did regarding the BLACK SATURDAY bushfires in February in which 173 people lost their lives. this Pastor Danny Nalliah said he had a dream in October last year in which he saw fires everywhere and believed it was judgement upn our State-Victoria-for the decriminalising of abortion. Instead of being a headline grabber and showing spiritual and cultural arrogance after the event,he should have ,if it truly was a Prophecy from God ,spoken earlier ,and not after the event.
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I once (in the 70’s) watched in horror when during a local religious broadcast in Springfield Mo. a late middle aged couple was trotted out and prompted to testify how they praised God for the death of their son in a tragic car wreck. Yikes. I was just appalled that some theological numbskull apparently coached them to do this. This is a kind of islamic fatalism that runs counter to what you see in the Bible.
This example, as well as that of Piper just highlights the impression those of us on the outside of the Church get that there is a pervasive disconnect with reality with these folks. It seems that they are lost in a theological fog that so distorts their interpretation of life events that it borders on a kind if delusion. I know this statement is a strong challenge to the outlook of many here but I feel it must be said. (I am speaking as a believer in God)
I admire your bravery in challenging this.
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It seems that many Roman Catholics gleefully agree with Piper too!
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/08/winds-of-change/
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The problem here is that God control everything, no doubt about it, but we also live in a sinful world and everything, including nature, is effected by the fall. So when something bad happens was it God who caused it, or was it the fallen world being fallen? Thats not a call I would like to make in this case, or in almost every case, because if you can make it in one case how do you stop from making it in every case? And how do you stop it from becoming “God’s judgment” when it happens to someone you disagree with, but the “fallen world” when it happens to someone you agree with?
Piper, I think, would be better here to go with “everything to the glory of God” knowing He control everything in the end and leave it at that. Even if he wants to go and pull out a sermon about death and destruction being close to everyone without warning, I’d be happy with that. But lets stick with the “more sure word” in this case and not try to understand God’s will though storms.
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Well, I guess an alternative interpretation would be that God diverted the tornado in order to destroy a building instead of killing the people in the convention hall. I think God is warning us about focusing too much on building programs.
And….did anyone see a rainbow after the storm? 🙂
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LOL
Or that they need to turn to one true church.
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John Piper and I see eye to eye on very few issues. While I didn’t expect it, this statement fits his continuing theological development. He is teaching dangerous theology here. He needs our prayers.
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I meant to say “false teachers,” not “false prophets.” Sorry.
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I think Piper’s quote contributes to the attitudes that allow for these concerns to be ignored. It’s valuable discussion.
The slippery slope is clear to me: If God sent the Minneapolis tornado as judgment, couldn’t He just as easily send all those things in the post above? And if so, who are we to get in God’s way?
We have to be about the business God gives us, feeding the widows and orphans as well as questioning false prophets. Feeding the hungry so they can be fed horse hockey is self-defeating in the long run.
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Sorry, Jed, you were just a few minutes ahead of me. Glad someone’s on the same page.
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Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? (Luke 13:4)
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Precisely. When does one hurricane become God’s judgement while 30 others are simply natural occurences? When it afflicts folks I don’t like.
You asked if it was arrogant? Yes. Didn’t the Lord in the OT always announce judgment, give folks time to repent, then when they did not, bring it on? Judgement matters when it is understood as judgment. I have no reason to think God throws lightening bolts (or hurricanes) at people then expects them to figure out who did it and why.
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I’m surprised nobody has mentioned Luke 13:1-5 yet (which Piper invoked)…so I will.
In that passage, Jesus is asked about a group of people killed by Pilate, if they were worse sinners than others. Jesus answers that they weren’t worse sinners, but this was a call to repentance for them. Jesus then Himself brings up the case of 18 people who died when the tower in Siloam fell, and repeats his call for repentance.
I’m hard pressed to see Piper doing much different here. The issues with Falwell and Robertson were that they were calling the others worse sinners (the same mistake that the disciples made) who deserved death more than they did. Piper is calling the Lutherans to repent for a particular sin, but I don’t see him making the judgment that they’re any worse than the rest of us.
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Trying not to beat the ole dead horse, I see such statements as another symptom of the Dualistic influence in some brands of Christianity. Nothing in this physical world (warm air masses meeting cold air masses, up drafts, super cells etc) have any meaning unless they are tied to the puppeteer’s strings (capital “P”) in Heaven . . . something done for a specific cause. Then we can ad-lib as to what that cause is . . . to fulfill any personal agenda.
These statements are not benign! For every one made, who knows how many more people will become disillusioned with the Christian faith.
When a plane crashes and 200 die but one survives, the one may write a book on how God saved them (and it will be a Christian Booksellers Association best seller) because of their faith, prayer (fill in the blanks) but 200 families will still hurt and become disillusioned.
The worst case I ever heard was in a previous church. After a toddler in our congregation had his little head cut to bits by his dad’s riding lawn mower (and died in my ER), the most senior deacon announced from the podium that “God did this for a specific reason, to teach us all to trust him more.†To which loud Amens poured out like some brainless mantra from a trance. The adults, who have already been mesmerized, by this convoluted thinking may not have been affected, however, the kids . . . those with still open minds . . . would start to think (in their secret places) that this Christian God is a freaking lunatic . . . or at least a sadist.
I am so glad that most of the commenters here are on the same page. It gives me great hope in the Church.
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I don’t know any atheist who catalog this kind of stuff (maybe some do..but that’s sad) but I do find Piper’s use of this event to push his agenda manipulative at best. When I realized I was an atheist, one of the great reliefs to me was the fact I no longer had to stress out trying to figure out what ‘sin’ was the cause of what ‘bad’ thing in my life, or what I had done to deserve God’s ‘chastisement’. Piper seems to be encouraging this kind of thinking with his comments, and that is something i would not wish on anyone.
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actually, that is what I was thinking.
Pronouncements like that are basically extra biblical pronouncements – While he did not proclaim it was “from the Lord”, exactly how else are you supposed to take it? How does he know this?
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Tornados have been a fixture in Minn and the rest of the mid-west since long before Europeans settled there. Oklahoma has more but not that much more. It is EXACTLY like hurricanes in Florida.
There are hundreds of tornados each year in the US. We’ve had 5 to 10 near me in the last 6 months.
Statistically they will hit most everywhere east of the Rockies at some point. And if you know statistics you’ll understand that they will strike a group of church sinners every now and then along with a church of the most dedicated faithful Christians also. We just don’t read as much into it when they tear up the local soup kitchen vs a group doing what some feel is great sin.
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Um – if storms and floods and such like are the judgement of God, then seeing as how practically all of the United States has some form of extreme environmental conditions – droughts, heatwaves, forest fires, tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, boiling hot summers, winters up to your neck in snow – it would seem that youse guys are doing a *lot* of offending 🙂
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Sorry to double-post, but can we ring the bell and declare N.T. Wright the winner by TKO?
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Call me a hater if you wish, but this drops JP’s already low credibility to less than zero in my mind. Statements like this push me farther still from the faith of my youth, from any faith at all. Craziness.
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Oh, he just misinterpreted the sign. The cross on the steeple is dangling upside-down. Tradition has it that St. Peter was martyred on an upside-cross. Clearly, St. Peter now thinks that Central Lutheran Church of Minneapolis is the new seat of Christendom and the home of the One True Church.
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I’d say that when things like this happen, the people involved (“in the path” of the storm, etc.) should reflect and see if there is a message in it for them. When things happen in my life, I stop and ask if God is trying to get my attention.
I don’t think someone “on the outside” should necessairly make the call.
All natural disasters, which fall on the just and the unjust, should remind us that they occur because we live in a fallen world, fallen because of sin. While the specific event may not be a judgment from God, it reminds us that this world will be judged, and the only way of escape is to be in Christ.
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I’m trying to get my head around the idea that a Baptist is addressing Lutherans. Now I don’t think Piper has gone into Falwell/Robertson territory in terms of depth and he certainly hasn’t done a Wilkerson-style predition of pending destruction … but couldn’t he at least have left it to Lutherans to argue about the provenance or providence of weather?
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Whenever someone in this day and age claims to know the exact reason on God’s mind for some event to have occurred, they are claiming the biblical role of a prophet (ex., “I know for certain that God did this because of this reason He told me.”). And if the person is actually a prophet, then it would not be extreme to say that what they are stating should be considered a legitimate addition to the cannon of Scripture.
Of course, if these guys really are prophets in the biblical sense, then there should occasionally be a precognitive element to their statements (vs. only assessing past events), and they should have a 100% accuracy rate in those predictions. Otherwise, they are acting as false prophets, and we know how those were looked upon back in the day.
Personally, I ignore such declarations. By all means, one is free to engage in pure speculation based on what they know of God’s attitude towards sin (ex., “It would not surprise me if these two events were linked somehow …”), but I doubt that practically anyone today can claim to speak with authoritative certainty on such matters.
As for what should be the Christian response when tragedy strikes, I would suggest Romans 8:28: “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.” I recently told my teenage niece this verse after she was in a severe vehicular accident; as a believer, this was of great comfort to her during her recovery.
While driving on the tollway, I once saw a bumper sticker that simply stated, “GOD IS IN CONTROL.” God is not merely a fellow participant in history; He is the author of history. No matter what happens to me, my loved ones, or even total strangers, I can know that God in His infinite wisdom is always going to do what is best in the grand scheme of things and what ultimately brings the most glory to Him, both through acts of His love and acts of His justice. Trusting God to know what He is doing through both the good times and the bad should be a primary characteristic of every Christian believer.
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How would you explain joy in suffering?
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I’m surprised no one has ventured the theory that this is Piper’s next step in his development as a charismatic. 😉
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It reminded me of reading some of the “earthquake sermons” puritans like Cotton Mather preached surrounding the quakes of 1727 and ’55. Jumping on a natural disaster as a chance to address some specific sin. In addition, I was disturbed by the way Piper read the Tower of Siloam incident in his post. Seems to me that Jesus is there addressing just this propensity to move too easily from a tragedy to a moral lesson. I’d agree with Ragamuffin in saying it was mostly harmless, but it certainly borders on a certain knowledge of God’s providence which can end one in a whole world of trouble.
Also, I can’t help thinking of the way a church I loved very much and taught the gospel clearly had its building burned down a couple years ago. Hate to think what sort of sin they must have been covering up…
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“He wouldn’t say that there’s a way to avoid tornadoes.”
Well, by default, logically speaking, he actually does – to avoid the “approval of sin.” Seems like that’s pretty clear. But that’s not really the point.
My comment is from someone who doesn’t keep up with Piper. The only reason I know about this is because you’re talking about it here. So, not having any pre-connection to him, I say it’s ridiculous to say such things. It seriously makes me shake my head and just turn away. There’s no sense in defending it or anything like it – just makes anyone who does sound goofy by association. Of course, we’re all goofy in our own special ways, so there you go. And yes, if the Pope said something like that, I’d say the same thing.
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Every time I read a quote like Piper’s, all I can think of is Matthew 5:45b –
“He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”
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Apart from the revelation being given by God to John Piper it is spiritual guess work at best and spiritual manipulation at worst.
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Uh….he was drawing the line right to it. Otherwise he wouldn’t have even mentioned the subject. He can’t be given a break for “coming close but not quite.”
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Does anyone realize that atheists catalog things like Kyle Lake being executed in his own baptistery and church lights falling on people during worship for just this sort of reason?
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Was this not (an albeit unfortunate) an exhortation for all of us to repent? That is, every event like this where calamity happens of one sort or another is a reminder for all of us, regardless of what sins we practice, to repent? Judging from Piper’s body of work, I would say that this would be it (Calamity happens; therefore, we are all sinners & must repent). While he came dangerously close, I don’t think he was commenting ex post facto, i.e., that the Lutheran convention brought on the tornado.
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If that’s true, then how would it be a warning? I can’t say I know enough about Piper to know whether this is a “stray remark,” something he said in the heat of the moment, or something he doesn’t regret saying. I always get a little nervous when people try to interpret what God is doing with regard to the tragedies and successes in life. Since our earthly lives are so short when compared to eternity, I tend to see what happens now as just a blip and not a trend or God’s approval / disapproval.
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Ok, having read Piper’s post, David Sessions’ short article and the Kings passage, I’ll categorize it as harmless. To my knowledge, no one was hurt or killed in that particular tornadic event. The steeple was split in two and the cross bent downward from it. Had people been injured or killed from it, I’d say that it would come off as inappropriate to say such things without certain knowledge in the wake of people’s grief.
Plus, I think Piper handled it in a fairly humble manner. This wasn’t a “thus saith the Lord” moment and he wasn’t insisting his interpretation was Gospel Truth (TM).
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I have devoured Piper’s writings for years, but a major turn happened in my experience of him during the Romans exposition years. There was a turn towards a constant emphasis on the sovereignty of God expressed in ways that go over the line of what we should be saying. It is almost as if every event becomes a challenge to see how can the sovereignty of God be inserted here?
My readers know that when I heard a Piper clip talking about rejoicing in God while holding the dead body of an accident victim, it deeply affected me. There is a reason we have lamenting, grieving, questioning Psalms and books like Ecclesiastes and Job.
There’s a place that our confidence in God’s sovereignty is expressed in silence. It’s nowhere to be found in this kind of theologizing.
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In Pipers defense, this tornado is disturbingly ominous. You couldn’t make something like this up and put it in a story, people would say it was ridiculous. Hurricanes in Florida are a little less remarkable, usually, precisely because they lack the character of an omen.
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Do I believe God can use natural disasters as a message? Yes. Do I believe that means we should try to interpret natural disasters? No. Simple enough. Especially when “interpreting” such things is likely to do more damage to the cause of Christ than good.
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I respect John Piper immensely, and still do, but this seemed off base. What sins does God send natural disasters for? Who among us gets to make that call?
My city has had a recent plague of grasshoppers. Is it a gentle yet firm warning to turn from my idolatry, pride, and self-worship? (Which I should do).
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I am a huge Piper fan boy who is really disappointed. We can think something without saying it out loud. Our church was hit by a tornado back in 1994. Should i get up this week and tell them it was God’s judgment on them?
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I saw this post earlier today (through Challis) and was pretty taken aback. I don’t see eye to eye with Piper on some important issues, but nevertheless always saw him as at least reasonable and thoughtful.
To see him make statements that instantly bring flashbacks of the “9-11 was because of homosexuals” incidents is disappointing.
Though the situations are by no means comparable, the logic seems the same.
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There was a clip a while ago of a discussion between Tim Keller, DA Carson and John Piper in the aftermath of one of their Gospel Coalition Conferences – Pastor Piper admitted that if there was one thing he could change in his earlier writings it would be to emphasize Christ more.
I think he has a fine appreciation for the sovereignty of God – but when he makes statements like the ones you quote – I think he comes dangerously close to a theology of glory. God chooses to reveal himself through Christ, whose command is that we rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. We aren’t supposed to spend our time trying to reason out the secret things of a God who dwells in unapproachable light.
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Piper is no purveyor of the prosperity Gospel. He wouldn’t say that there’s a way to avoid tornadoes.
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How about the other side of the prosperity gospel coin? God as an ATM machine — punch in the right code and you get wealth. Punch in the wrong code and your card is confiscated and the police are called.
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