Open Mic at the iMonk Cafe: Miracle Testimonies

109 thoughts on “Open Mic at the iMonk Cafe: Miracle Testimonies”

1. Awfully late to the thread, but this is the Scripture that I always think of in this context:

   “An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so for three days and three nights the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth.” (Matthew 12:39, 40)

   “For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the foolishness of our proclamation, to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For God’s foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God’s weakness is stronger than human strength.” (1 Cor. 1:21-25)

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2. Tim: “Observation of exaggerated claims by evangelicals suggests not a paucity of miracles ”

   How can it not?

   You Modern materialist pre-suppositions are showing.

   Tim: When all the stories of miracles that i’ve heard turn out to be false then how can it not suggest a paucity of miracles?

   All? You have proven them all false? Every one? Or some are false and you assume the rest are.

   Even if that is so what is the conclusion you can draw? Only that you personally have not encountered a miracle.
   Or all swans white?

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3. “Something that requires “that God must in some way violate or create an exception to the natural order” is the exact definition that the Scriptures use to qualify something as a miracle.”

   Where?

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4. Is it not a miracle that your mother loves you?

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5. I’m a bit of a skeptic on miracle stories that become the foundation of an entire ministry. That’s mainly because I feel like people are made to think that because one person was miraculously delivered, they too will be miraculously delivered.

   I believe God performs miracles today. I am close friends with a married couple experiencing a medical miracle right now, and it is the cause of much praise to God. We need to remember that miracles point us toward God, not toward self-exaltation or worshiping the miracle itself. I think that’s what’s gotten lost in a lot of the miracle talk today.

   I think we trust that miracles will bring everyone to faith in Jesus, and that simply isn’t true. The miracles Jesus performs in the Gospels encourage faith in many, but despite seeing them, the Pharisees and scribes refuse to believe. Miracles are not our ace-in-the-hole, and I’m not a fan of publicizing them. I’m sure someone will not appreciate me saying that, but there have been too many miracle stories that just aren’t verifiable and are publicly touted, and those stories wind up pushing people away.

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6. I tend to agree. Credibility changes a lot for me as well.

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7. I’m not sure that the early church really moved in power. I rather think that God worked powerfully in and through the church’s weakness.

   Re-read the original post, I don’t understand that iMonk is doubting God’s ability to do miracles, he is doubting that he does as many as some claim, and especially calling into question the role and meaning that are attributed to miracles. The difference may seem subtle, but it is a big diffference.

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8. It seems there is so much skepticism here. I believe Jesus is the same yesterday as today. I believe the Jesus of the New Testament , specifically the book of Acts, is the same Jesus we serve now. I want to see the church moving in power as it did in the early church.. Why not? Give me a good reason we shouldn’t be walking in the same power???

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9. I appreciate the clarification; after doing a little digging I concur that it is God’s exceptional supernatural intervention that makes the difference in defining a miracle.

   Thanks!

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10. “make sure you are being scrupulously honest in every detail.”

    Great advice in every situation.

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11. My wife found her wedding dress. in her size. in the window of the first store she shopped at.

    On lady friend of ours commented “That jesus turning water into wine was imoressive, but THAT was a miracle.”

    She was being funny, but your point is absolutely true…and sad.

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12. They must have thought your mom was more tight fisted than you did. 🙂

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13. It is indeed a question of defining what a miracle is.

    Something that requires “that God must in some way violate or create an exception to the natural order” is the exact definition that the Scriptures use to qualify something as a miracle.

    It is certainly not the only time that the scriptures claim that God is directly involved in the happenings of life, but they are the only things that qualify as miracles when we allow the Bible to define what a miracle is.

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14. “I am sceptical of scepticism towards miracles, in particular the assumption that God must in some way violate or create an exception to the natural order in order to perform miracles.”

    I had said before how I needed money and so wrote my mom to send me money and she did and the others said praise God its a miracle! Would you say they were right?

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15. “Observation of exaggerated claims by evangelicals suggests not a paucity of miracles ”

    How can it not? When all the stories of miracles that i’ve heard turn out to be false then how can it not suggest a paucity of miracles?

    “an attenuated theology which cannot situate, or even identify the miraculous”

    are you saying the reason I can’t see miracles because I might be defining miracles wrongly?

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16. I am sceptical of scepticism towards miracles, in particular the assumption that God must in some way violate or create an exception to the natural order in order to perform miracles. That assumption rests rather shakily on the tenuous materialist assumptions of the Modern project. The Church is the last place in which Modernism should be strong, so ironically the church is the last place in which Modernism is strong, the secular world have abandoned faith in it some time ago.
    Observation of exaggerated claims by evangelicals suggests not a paucity of miracles but an attenuated theology which cannot situate, or even identify the miraculous except in same terms as the late unlamented materialist world view of last century, as claims about the existence of God, rather than a discernible pattern in the fabric of the universe, which exhibits God’s character.

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17. In the never-ending course of searching for study resources to help me truly know, understand and live a life that pleases God I came across this site. Thanks for your work.

    Over the years I have been introduced to bits and pieces (like a quilt) of doctrinal concepts which I have understood to varying degrees and I suspect that I am not alone. From the Fundamentalist to the Atheist anyone with a mind has an opinion and if given enough time can seemingly make the bible say or not say just about anything they want – and believe it, and want you to believe it too. It is the potential for error that challenges me to ask myself if my understanding of the bible is correct or in error. I am not familiar with many of the theological terms that I have recently been introduced to(Monergism, Arminianism, Synergism, etc.) let alone the debates and struggles concerning these terms and the underlying concepts (which sound familiar but had up to this point have been undefined in this way – the quilt) that have taken place over time. It is possible that lifetimes have been devoted to God and the study of God’s word – in error (heresy). I find that amid the cacophony I just want to know ‘the truth’ – what does God say, what does it mean, what do I do? I have been asking these questions for the past 31 years and now through the internet I am able to access resources which I never knew existed online or in print. It is this access to information and the tools with which to process that information for which I am grateful.

    There have been times when I have felt like ‘Neo’ at conversation with the ‘Archictect’ in the matrix movie. Yet I find that in spite of the fact that I don’t know everything or understand everything that has been presented before me I believe that God will continue to work out my sanctification and for that I am humbly grateful. All I can do is believe and wholly depend on him to provide all – whether it be knowledge, wisdom, instruction, understanding and power to perform correctly in demonstration of the same(Proverbs chapter 1).

    With respect to healing or miracles, the recipient cannot inwardly deny it; whether or not they should announce it publicly I don’t know. Why does it happen for some and not for others I don’t know. While I would like to know, I don’t. And so I table that thought and in so doing neither add to nor take from the significance or importance of healing or miracles because,…. I don’t know.

    One need not look to ‘miracles’ to be amazed – The fact of this website and others like it could be considered miraculous if one accepts among the definitions of a miracle the concept of ‘an observed event or phenomena which cannot be readily explained or understood.’ Before this technology was developed the concept would have been considered a miracle.

    Is it any less miraculous in scope just because we can explain or understand it? Understanding comes from God and in no way diminishes the significance or importance of that which is understood.

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18. I grew up in Charisamatic circles and heard stories all the time and never saw a single provable miracle.

    In general the people that I know in those circles are prone to exageration and rarely willing to give someone’s claims any critical examination.

    Then of course there are clowns like Benny Hinn who have been known to make things up.

    I don’t have any theological hangups that prevent me from believing in genuine miracle and I have a very few credible friends who have seen or performed miracles, but my default is “show me”.

    Jesus did public observable miracles.

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19. Dependance on Christ is the miracle that always works, brings an incredible peace, and actually gets us out of “ourselves” and into Him, and those around us.

    I’m so grateful for what God does for me and mine each week, it’s truly a miracle, and worth talking about to any unbeliever (or believer) that cares to hear it.

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20. hah! is it that apparent?! Wimber was a smart guy… we don’t always see eye to eye but I like his style! 🙂

    hey I am glad you got knocked over by my story! theres lots more.. I just haven’t had time to write it!..

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21. “wanna-be megachurch”

    That’s the saddest thing I have read in a while

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22. I remember someone commenting that you see lots of abandoned crutches at Fatima but no wooden legs.

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23. So-called miracles are honestly one of the biggest stumbling blocks that I personally experience in the evangelical faith. I just do not find many of these tales credible. The big picture, if this stuff is to be believed, often makes God look capricious and petty, which I know is the opposite of what the miracle-claimer intends, but that is nonetheless the consequence.

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24. True, but are christians any better? How many faithful, small town Gospel-preaching pastors to churches of 40 have christians latched onto as a posterchild for our religion?

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25. I’m generally not interested in miracle stories, for all the reasons people have already expounded on.

    One story I heard does stand out to me though. I met this guy at church who at first blush seemed like some fruity hippie type, who was ready to find miracles any-old-where, and he proceeded to tell me about his conversion. It went something like this: “One day Jesus appeared to me in a vision and said “follow me.” So I did. It was amazing, like a window into heaven. I was totally transfixed. I’ve never been the same. I’ve been following him all over now, telling people about him. Never saw any more visions. Just that one. But man, I know- Jesus is real. Heaven is real.”

    What struck me about his story is 1) there was only one dramatic vision experience. He didn’t need to stack up stories as if his faith was more valid the more visions he got.. 2) he was permanently changed in an inner way, he became Jesus-fixated. 3) his story revolved around Jesus, not himself or his experience.

    In addition to all this, his countenance told me he wasn’t out to prove something, or seeking supernatural events like some kind of drug. I wish I heard more stuff like that one.

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26. I really believe that miracles can easily become an idol and Jesus a thaumaturge when we emphasize miracles and healings. Some congregations are more enamored by “blessings” than the one who truly blesses. I’m with you iMonk on this (as on many things). Miracles are signs and wonders of the kingdom present among us. They are not signs and wonders for evangelism. How many people who witnessed the miracles of Jesus followed him? He would have had thousands from feeding the 5k and 4k alone. I think the gospels would have noted such a drastic increase in followers of Jesus if miracles functioned in that way.

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27. Thanks for sharing that, Tim. My story is a lot like yours–growing up cessationist and joining a Pentecostal church as an adult. After two years in the Pentecostal church, I realized that their emphasis on getting miracles all the time was just unsustainable, as you put it so well. If I didn’t get my miracle, I was left feeling like it was my fault for just not having enough faith. Now I believe reality lies somewhere between the cessationists and the Pentecostals.

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28. When I first came to Christ I read a variety of sources in an attempt to understand who God is. The rational part of my mind was content to understand Christ casting out demons, unstopping ears, causing the blind to see and the lame to walk as metaphor.

    However, the timing of my coming to Christ soon seemed like a miracle. I do not know how I could have endured the following months without Him. The greatest miracle in my life is knowing Christ in my life.

    As I tried to understand who God is I eventually came to realize that if I understood God, I was understanding a God of my own mind’s construction. Obviously, God must be vastly more than I can comprehend.

    With this understanding I could no longer say that miracles don’t happen. How can I say anything is impossible to a God that my pitiful little brain finds utterly incomprehensible? I don’t know the whys of why God might intervene. But if God is beyond my understanding I cannot say that God is incapable of intervention. I cannot limit God to fit my ability to comprehend. The experience of my own life tells me that God is certainly capable of intervention.

    Other things have happened that seem like miracles, but each time there is also a natural explanation. My habit has become to thank God regardless. After all, even if there is a perfectly logical explanation, I am grateful to be at the place where I know there is more to God than I can possibly comprehend.

    All my prayers became, “Let Your Will Be Done.”

    When I look at a radiant sunset or golden sun shining through green leaves against the backdrop of blue sky, I feel gratitude. The swelling of gratitude is like embracing all of Creation. I do not believe God laid out these magnificent views just for me, but I do believe He has taught me to feel gratitude, which is praise, which is embracing with my entire mind and expressing, “Let Your Will Be Done!” And this gives me joy, which also feels like a miracle.

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29. I was raised in evangelical free church and we never prayed or asked God for miracles, it was cessationist. i went to a pentecostal church in college and it was very different, because people cajoled and almost demanded of God that he do miracles. This seemed weird to me, but the pastor explained that God likes it when we are bold.

    I was always shy and withdrawn and so pentecostal exuberance was not natural for me, but it has a way of sucking you in, so eventually I was laying hands on strangers in public and believing God to heal them and save them.

    This miracle-seeking phase lasted 2 or 3 years but it was hard work sustaining that level of belief and exuberance; i felt like i was flapping my arms in the hopes that I might fly. For every instance that felt miraculous to me, there were others that blew up in my face. Sometimes I’d hear a voice telling me to do something and it would yield amazing results, other times the results were embarrassing and painful. I guess I was ‘on fire for God’, but it was unsustainable over the long term and I got tired of it and jsut wanted to be a regular person again.

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30. I had a similar experience as a teenager I went on a mission trip and I needed money so I wrote home and asked my mom to send me some money. I got the money and everyone said praise God its a miracle! I told them, no, I had asked my mom for the money, but they said “It doesn’t matter! Its still a miracle!” In fact it wasnt’ a miracle at all but the more i said this, the more angry the others seemed to get.

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31. I was, at one point, part of a SBC wanna-be megachurch. This church became enamored with healing and healing testimonies, a development that dovetailed with a descent into prosperity and word-of-faith thought. Most of the testimonies were about someone else someplace else and could not be verified by the average listener. Even those testimonies that were first hand from people in the congregation were tightly controlled and produced, shown to the congregation via an edited videotape, not live. Both people I knew personally who gave these testimonies later relapsed. Their relapses were never announced to the congregation. The whole thing seemed geared to the needs of keeping the institutional circus going.

    Obviously my interpretation is that there are major abuses going on this scenario, and so, by itself, that story probably contributes very little to this discussion. However, the story goes on … I haven’t attended this church for years, but I’ve never managed to get off the mailing list. The main item in this week’s emailing detailed their “proactive plan” for dealing with the flu season this year. First item was that everyone should pray that the church and its associated school would be a “flu-free zone.” Further down was the advice that everyone should, as much as possible, avoid anyone showing flu symptoms.

    In the midst of the static of cognitive dissonance, what flashed into my mind was a book I read a while back about how a yellow fever epidemic nearly wiped out the city of Memphis, TN in the 1870s. Part of the story was that a convent of nuns and their priest stayed in the city, tending the sick and burying the dead. If I recall correctly, most of them lost their lives in the effort.

    Turning back to my SBC wanna-be megachurch, it seems we have an evangelicalism where slick productions of “how God cured my brain cancer” (and we’ll be completely silent that our hero was dead within the year from a recurrence of the same type of tumor) exist side by side with a policy for dealing with the flu that includes a God who will optimally produce a “flu-free zone” for us, plus advice to basically shun and avoid anyone showing flu symptoms.

    In this type of evangelicalism (which, in its general outlines, I suspect is unfortunately far from rare), I wonder… I wonder if the “healing testimony” phenomenon, far from being a testimony of faith in God, is rather a symptom of a deep problem in the faith community in actually dealing with the hard issues of life, such as chronic or complicated illness, with the accompanying pain, grief, fear, frustration, exhaustion, as well as confusion and loss of control when caught up in the midst of a highly technical and often rushed medical system.

    How much of the “healing testimony” phenomenon exists because it is the only acceptable avenue given to people to express their experience of difficult or chronic illness? How much of it exists to give us a convenient excuse to avoid sacrificial service to others? How much of it exists as a seemingly faithful veneer to cover up a deep anxiety and feeling of powerless to face head-on the age-old problem of how death and suffering still exist, given all that we testify to about our God and the victory of Jesus?

    I’m not saying that God doesn’t work miracles, or that there aren’t faith communities who do deal in a faithful, robust way with the issues raised above. I’m just wondering how much of the specific “healing testimony” phenomenon is actually a symptom of major weakness and problems, not faith, within some (many?) faith communities.

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32. I think it will be a miracle if I have the self control to stop reading this blog now, and get to work like I am supposed to! ;=)

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33. With all the loud and vocal Benny Hinns, Tatted Tods, and Weepy Church Ladies, you’ve got a very low signal-to-noise ratio there.

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34. Should be …really worth a “listen”. Typo.

    Also, something to think about as it relates to this particular story is that the remission that Joy went into allowed her and Jack a few years together, and her death led to incredible grief for C.S. Lewis. That led to his journal of thoughts that eventually became “A Grief Observed” which has spoken truth to many, many, people grieving the death of a loved one. Perhaps coincidences. Perhaps.

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35. “In my experience, when miracles do actually happen (and I absolutely believe they do) it’s usually in relative obscurity and quiet, and most often unexpected. And there is not a shred of doubt or ambiguity about to whom the glory and praise belong.”

    exactly. see my above post about my experiences.

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36. I’m usually very quick to be skeptical of miracle claims. But when they come from someone who also seems to be very rational as a rule, it does give me pause. For example, Steve Brown, etc. recently had Douglas Gresham on. The podcast is still up on his website and is really worth a lesson for all of his stories of living with C.S. Lewis. But during the broadcast he really surprised me with a story in which he spoke of direct communication with God during his mother’s cancer. You really should listen to it directly from him, but to summarize his story, Joy was by all accounts on her deathbed. Gresham “encountered” God outside a small church and God told him that if he really couldn’t live without his mom she could be healed. He said he couldn’t live without her and she immediately entered her extended remission, during which C.S. Lewis and Joy had their brief time together in marriage. When the cancer came back with a vengeance a few years later, Gresham said he had the same encounter with God, honestly considered whether he could live without her at this point in his life, said “your will be done” and she died the next day.

    My skeptic flag is still up on this story. But coming from someone like Gresham rather than the weepy woman who has a “word from God” every other day, I have to at least ponder the possibility that a real miracle took place there. One interesting thing in his story as he relates it is that God approached him with the offer, not the other way around. That also makes me somewhat more inclined to sit up and take notice.

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37. Miracles semi-disgust me.

    Nobody gets healed of senility.

    Nobody gets healed of autism or FAS.

    Nobody gets smarter, nobody gets miraculously wise.

    We like to say that it’s because such things are ‘mental’ and don’t involve the soul, but in a Bible full of walking lames, possessed swine and ex-lepers, we’re kidding ourselves if we imagine that miracles are supposed to have a moral substrate – we know that’s not true just like we know that nobody comes out of Down’s Syndrome because of some prayer. We know better than to even ask. It’s beyond the realm of possibility; we wouldn’t waste our hope praying for it.

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38. I also think about George Muller in England and how God provided food for the orphanage so many times when they did not know where the food would come from.

    Once again, is that miraculous? I think so. Without God’s intervention or help those orphans would not have eaten, yet time and again food showed up on the doorstep.

    There were a number of times when there was no food, yet Muller would set the table and have the children sit down at their places and simply tell them, we don’t have any food, but we are going to pray about it.

    They prayed and before they got done praying someone stopped by with a sack of groceries or some other kind of food.

    Muller never once asked for money, or told anyone the financial situation of his orphanage, yet he received thousands of pounds in donations. All he did was pray.

    Once again, I don’t know if this is relevant to the discussion, but I think that these kinds of stories ought to be related, because they bolster our faith, well, they bolster my faith.

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39. One of my profs. in seminary would recount this incident in his O.T. survey classes. I heard it at least twice.

    When he was in grad. school, he and his wife didn’t have a lot of money, but they believed that they were doing what God wanted them to do.

    Towards the end of one particular month their money had run out and his wife said “well, all we have to eat is a box of crackers for supper, I don’t know what we are going to do”.

    Not long after that their neighbor lady knocked on their door and said “I just made some corn chowder, and I have some left over would you like some?” and handed his wife a jar of corn chowder.

    His wife said “thank you so much, we even have some crackers to put in it”.

    His point in sharing that incident was “You can trust God to meet your needs and take care of you as He leads you into ministries that may not pay a whole lot”

    Once again, don’t know if you would qualify this as a miracle, but it definitely was another time that God took care of His people who were in need. I have certainly come back to that story time and again as my wife and I have gone from two incomes to one when our baby was born.

    He has provided for us in many ways. I don’t know if it is “miraculous” but I will say it this way, we would not be able to make it financially in the ministry that we are in if it weren’t for God’s provision.

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40. wow, am I ever glad you are still with us, your life and words are a gift to us and HIM

    hey, isn’t that COSMO’s moon ???

    Greg R

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41. Well done Michael for speaking out on this. Too much emphasis on miracles ends up with the Benny Hinns of this world, who in my opinion do considerable harm to Christians and non-Christians. This is another of those issues where a balanced view is required – something that fewer and fewer people seem to be able to manage nowadays. Balance means believing that God can, and sometimes will, step in supernaturally, but living in the reality that obedience, humility, love, grace etc. should be our goals, not divine quick fixes.

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42. hmmmm….in order for GOD to work in my life that way, I guess I have to get divorced first, and hope the judge makes my ex-wife-to-be ponies up…… yeah, this could work…. sheesh.

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43. Nice post, I think you’ve done a good job of capturing the extremes and are hanging onto the Wimber-ish radical middle. Johnny boy is smiling somewhere….and playing drums, no doubt…or was it keyboards ??? Your story of meeting your wife knocked me over, BTW; there was a nice ditty to share with your nazarene grandparents….. 🙂

    pax and kindness upon your bald head
    Greg R

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44. Back when I was transitioning into faith from my own personal darkness of nihilism and substance abuse, I can remember praying in moments of desperation and asking God (if He was really there) to do absolutely anything necessary to get me through that struggle. And stuff — stuff of the seemingly supernatural variety — started happening, both inside me and in the observable world around me. For a while there, I honestly feared that I was going insane. What really helped me through this time were some close Christian friends with whom I could talk about these things I was experiencing. And it helped me even more to hear back that some of them had experienced similar things in their lives. I didn’t feel so alone in my struggle, and it gave me an alternative to the fear that I might be losing my marbles.
    I agree that there are extremes to avoid in a church context when it comes to sharing stories of the miraculous, but, then again, I think many Christians need some kind of context in which to share such experiences, or even experiences of the not-so-miraculous variety that they found spiritually meaningful. I mean, let’s be fair. In mainstream evangelical churches, Preachers get to burden the brethren’s ears three times a week with all kinds of stuff from their own lives or stories they’ve heard from other preachers about somebody else’s experiences, all thrown in with their favorite scriptures, theological arguments, and bad jokes. The rest of us are expected to listen attentively to all this and, for the most part, to keep our traps shut about what God might be revealing to us or doing in our lives, either naturally or supernaturally. I confess that I don’t want to hear how God healed brother or sister so-and-so’s bladder problems for the 200th time anymore than the next guy, but I think that some churches rob themselves of some real edifying jewels by shutting out or not making space for personal testimonies from the congregation. And, from my experience, it’s really not that hard as a leader to moderate open, interactive communication in the church and keep things from becoming a “my testimony or miracle story is better than yours” contest. Just set the standard at honesty and humility and nip it in the bud (in a loving way) when it starts to cross over those lines. And if you can train a fellowship or congregaton to do this and moderate themselves, then the preacher can occasionally take a break from the pulpit and let the church body teach, build up, and minister to itself.

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45. I’m sorry I submitted before adding my post-snark comment. What you said about the individual who passed away shortly after his healing, that is just the thing that skeptics, atheists, and secular culture latch onto in order to discredit and embarrass Christianity. Unfortunately, it is always the fraud that becomes the poster-child, not the faithful, small town Gospel-preaching pastor to a church of 40.

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46. With all of this talk about healing, will nobody think of the wheelchair and crutch industry? Where is your compassion?

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47. On the matter of praying for miracles, Jesus said he only did what he saw the Father do… from that perspective I am always listening and always watching…

    I like what Mick said above..

    “I’m a skeptic and a recovering cynic but I want to believe that the Spirit is still longing for us to step out of our Western sensibilities and let him bless us and use us to proclaim the Good News of the Gospel, in part, thru signs and wonders.”

    I think there is alot of truth to that, I think that sometimes I am too logical to have faith… but sometimes God surprises me and I experience a great moment with him that I never could have expected… I may never see him move and then move with him like Jesus, or Paul, or Peter did but that does not detain me from believing and knowing that if I do see the Father doing something I will jump right in there without a bit of skepticism and watch him work something amazing.

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48. Your position is one I agree with but the kind of thing we are talking about are the people (in every denomination) who go around with the ‘amazing’ stories of ‘miracles’ and the near-as-dammit guarantee that if you only believe hard enough/engage in this devotion/put all your trust in the Lord/recite this Bible verse, you will have astounding, amazing, extradordinary things happening to you as well.

    And if you try the things they suggest and don’t have astounding, amazing, wonderful things happening? Well, you did something wrong. You weren’t sincere. You didn’t have enough faith.

    It’s like the people – nice, sincere, genuine people – who come back from Medugorje with tales of their rosary beads turned to gold. Uh-huh. NO.

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49. I remember Jesus saying “a foolish and perverse generation seeks a sign” and I think most Christians these days live to hear a story about God doing something amazing, The sad truth is that so many live vicariously through the testimonies of others rather than experiencing the miracles of God in their daily life. God does intervene in our daily lives, but so many are looking for miracles and miraculous conversions that they miss the point, It reminds me of the folks that will sit and watch a whole season of “The Biggest Loser” on TV but never actually get up and exercise or eat right. There is something very wrong when we depend on the stories of others to strengthen our faith! I have literally hundreds of stories about how God has specifically shown himself in undeniable ways to be active in my life. but those are my stories, for my faith! I will occasionally tell a story to others but my motive in telling those stories is to exhort others to follow Jesus with passion and integrity and to experience him for themselves. I get weary of hearing the “Big Show” testimonies that somehow put a person on a pedestal for being extraordinarily saved… or extraordinarily healed. I also have a problem with people that shiver and comment on sensing the spirit when some popular christian leader walks in the room, I am absolutely tired of having some “snake oil christian” compare their completely wild sensations, pseudo-spirituality, and Idolatrous life, to my very simple but powerful and totally full life in Jesus Christ, and deduct that I have somehow missed out on the great things of God…

    I do not believe that skepticism is the answer but discernment because while these stories and testimonies are sometimes motivated out of self promotion and the need for attention. The people that are giving them still need Jesus, and they still need healing, and they still need to be saved from themselves. The distortions of religion has beaten up people for a long time and they are just reaching out for hope, for something supernatural to change their life, and they are sometimes hanging on to a single event because it is the only thing they can see. And if we ignore them, we are no better than the priest or the Levite that passed by the man that was beaten on the side of the road in the story of the good Samaritan.

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50. I’ve seen both sides. When I was down in New Orleans, I met a guy who had been healed of cancer. He became a believer on what was basically going to be his deathbed (he had multiple tumors) as a result of some baptists witnessing to him. His prayer was, “God, either I’m going to live or I’m going to die. You call it. If I die, I’ll be with you, but if I live, my life is yours.” And God healed him. The tumors disappeared, and he’s still alive now, over 10 years later. No chemo, no nothing. Just gone. Permanently.

    Of course, that isn’t the kind of thing that people like to hear in their “miracle testimonies.” It’s not a matter of faith, it’s a matter of God choosing to intervene. I wish the people giving the “miracle testimonies” would shut up, so that the people who have really had stuff like that happen to them would be more easily heard, and God would be glorified.

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51. If you believe because of a miracle happening, then it’s also true that you can lose your faith when a miracle doesn’t happen. Pursuing God should be our number one goal, regardless of what He does or will do, but thankful for what He already did and for who He is.

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52. I’m a skeptic and a recovering cynic but I want to believe that the Spirit is still longing for us to step out of our Western sensibilities and let him bless us and use us to proclaim the Good News of the Gospel, in part, thru signs and wonders. Will there be charlatans? Yes. Will there be hystrionics? Yes. Will some get caught up in the gifts just like the Corinthians? Probably. It might get messy. Nothing might happen. We might see many miracles that bring glory to God and bear witness to Jesus is Lord. We might find ourselves way out of our comfort zones- and liking it!

    I’m not a great world traveler. But I’ve seen both fake and what appeared to this skeptic to be real and surprisingly ordinary (to them) miracles in some places because they ask and appear to believe in God to do miraculous things. They also seem to be quite ok when God doesn’t show up that way. They pray as tho they actually believe this stuff and it convicts and humbles me.

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53. The worst “miracle” testimony I’ve heard was someone who was behind on her bills, but decided to start tithing even though she couldn’t afford it. Lo and behold, a $5000 back-support check from her ex-husband appeared soon after. Miracle and the prosperity gospel all in one.

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54. Well, I think the point of the little “parable” is that both explanations can be very well possible…in the end it depends on your faith or lack there of.

    Case in point: a lowly criminal is executed on the outskirts of a great empire about two thousand years ago…according to some eyewitnesses the guy somehow managed to come back from the dead…

    So, is this God Incarnate taking our place as sinners? Or is it just some rabble rouser who ran into some bad luck? Depends on your point of view…

    Perhaps this is a bit too postmodern…dammit!

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55. Dear Michael, I am not big on miracles,but I have encountered them many times throughout my life. The many times I should have been thrown in prison for some of the things I have done but God has spared with his mercy. The many times I should have suffererd shame and disgrace for my secret sins but God has spared me. The fact that God still loves me despite the fact that I am a vile , disgusting POS are tesimonies that miracles happen all the time.

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56. Sorry about that. I was off topic.

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57. Sounds to me like both parties in that story are approaching the question backwards. How can you evaluate whether a given experience was a miracle until you’ve defined some general criteria for what counts as a miracle? Rationally speaking, it’s possible that God sent two Eskimos to save the atheist, and it’s also possible that it was just chance. Either explanation explains the facts. How do you eliminate one of them?

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58. Commenters: Please do a check as to whether you are on topic. Ridicule of the Christian category of miracles is OFF topic.

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59. Nobody flips it around and is amazed that a person was exactly where they needed to be to get hit by that bus and die and attributes the circumstances to the intervention of Jesus. Nobody watches a tsunami hit an area and kill many and attribute it to the miraculous power of divine intervention. This guy gets only positive press when things go right and is left off the check list when things go wrong. Nice gig.

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60. I went on a short-term mission trip three years ago to a Southeast Asian country run by a monster and his military regime. We were there to “bless” these poor (and I do mean poor) folks with the message of the gospel and part of that message was to include our personal testimony. Well, need I tell you that the worst of our “testimonies” were no match for these people’s daily lives and some of our stories included “miracles” or at least “miraculous” intervention by God. I was speechless when this one poor woman in one of the villages I visited sobbed and asked me while pounding her chest why a God who loves them lets them continue to suffer. Like I said…I was speechless. Still am.

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61. “Jesus didn’t primarily use miracles to evangelize, but to show the presence of the Kingdom.”

    Are these two separate things? I thought the gospel Jesus proclaimed (evangelizing) and embodied was precisely the presence of the Kingdom at hand.

    But I share your concerns and reluctance to overemphasize miracle testimonies. But then again, if I had personally experienced a miracle as part of my own faith story, then I would certainly be eager to share that as significant part of my testimony.

    Here’s the deal: We all have testimonies that come out of our experiences with God. My testimony has no miracles in it, but rather a radically encounter with God’s Story through reading of Scripture. That’s what I emphasize in my sharing with others. But I can’t blame those who’ve seen God’s miraculous hand at work for wanting to share it enthusiastically. How can we?

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62. When I was 14 years old, I attempted to commit suicide by slitting my wrists, passed out, woke up still alive, and had what I remember as a really vivid argument with God- I felt like God had intervened in my attempts at death, and that if God really intended for me to keep on living, some of the unbearable things I was living with, internally and externally, needed to change, because life was untenable for me.

    Then my mom found me, bloody with towels wrapped around my wrists (though I do not at all remember wrapping around the towels) and took me to the emergency room. Things did not get better immediately (in fact, with the shame and stigma of attempted suicide, they got worse), but that experience of arguing with God- wrestling, really- made me feel loved and strong in a way that I had not before, and gave me a toehold on making things better, and allowing things to be better, in their own time. If God actively wanted me to not take my own life, I reasoned, then there must be something of value in my life (and, by extension, of me) that I wasn’t percieving, but that I should be willing to fight to find out.

    I look back on that experience now with an expanded knowledge of the way our minds work, and how strong the survival instinct is in our bodies. That whole experience seems to me to be as easily explained in secular terms as in divine intervention ones, but I really don’t care about proving to anyone that it is a miracle. To me, the larger miracle is that I came out of that alive, and grateful to be alive, and feeling loved and cared for by God in a way that I hadn’t before. Whether the mechanism of that was an actual encounter with God, or whether the mechanism was my own brain (created, after all, by God, to do it’s own amazing brainlike thing) is ultimately not really as important to me as the fact that I’m grateful to be alive is important to me.

    I guess for me the miracle is the finger that points to the moon, you know? I don’t want to get too hung up on the finger, as amazing as it is, and miss the entire moon.

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63. Miracles. By their fruits you will know them.

    While in college I was participating in a Christian group in which the group leader liked to ask something like, “So tell us now, what’s God been doing in your life?” People were apparent expected to respond with an upbeat statement about God’s remarkable deeds influencing their spiritual growth.

    I vaguely recall usually crafting a socially acceptable answer on the spot. But on several occasions I might have more truthfully replied by saying, “Well, it seems God is allowing me to experience some pain.”

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64. Austin,

    You might want to remember that there is not only physical healing, but emotional and spiritual healing as well. If you could incorporate those kinds of healings into your prayers, it migh make you more comfortable (as well as being honest to all concerned.)

    Not everyone who bathes in the waters at Lourdes are healed physically, but many are touched by the place.

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65. The church in America has been sort of a leader in marketing a whole lot of things about the faith, including miracles.

    In my experience, when miracles do actually happen (and I absolutely believe they do) it’s usually in relative obscurity and quiet, and most often unexpected. And there is not a shred of doubt or ambiguity about to whom the glory and praise belong.

    This is a far cry from some of the highly touted miracle stories I’ve heard on occasion, some of which I even looked up on Snopes afterward!

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66. This is very tough from another perspective as well. When I go to visit folks in the hospital I always get the impression that they want me to pray for a divine miracle that they be healed. I always feel a little uncomfortable doing that. Not because God can’t do it, but b/c that by me somehow demanding it, it will happen. That and I’ve seen way too many very devout and Godly folks, my grandmother for one, suffer excruciatingly painful deaths. These were faithful people. Their faith was probably greater than mine. If all it took was faith then they were perfect candidates.

    What’s your standard “prayer” Imonk when you visit someone?

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67. I think miracles are extreme cases of God’s Grace and Mercy towards us.

    I like the stories but most times, like, in 98% I feel like they’re fake. They’re either made up or overexeggarated. Most “testimonies” are like that. Especially when I see people “healed” of brain tumors and dying the next month for not continuing with treatment.

    However. I still am amazed by miracles, because I have witnessed a few ones myself.

    They NEVER happened at church or at “healing services”, they all happened when we gathered and prayed and confessed our weakness and sins. Example – at a youth camp we were playing stupid and started to wrestle in the sand at the volleyball court. The bass guitarist broke his arm, it was hurting, was swollen. We didn’t know what to do. We prayed. Two younger church leaders, , who happened to be the closest friends of ours, anointed the guy’s hand with old fashioned cooking oil. And by the time we finished prayer, the swelling was gone, we were all in tears, and were in the gracios hands of a most merciful God, willing to correct all the stupid little mistakes we do.

    Another happened to me, a growth from a very “uncomfortable” place disappeared from one day to another. I could not beleive it. A friend has a very similar story. These all happened at home, praying for God’s grace. Not shouting in tongues, not casting out demons, but pleading for mercy.

    Miracles – they’re amazing, and they can and do bring me to my knees. But I cannot guarantee any of them. God is sovereign and acts as He wishes. So neither would I use them for “marketing” purposes. I just cannot say that “healing is in the atonement”, and that everybody coming to Christ will be healed. I just lost a close (very devout christian) relative to Leuchemia. She died in 3 days, at the age of 22. We never knew she was sick, neither did she. Where was her miracle? I don’t know. God is sovereign. God gives and takes lives. God did, however provide for the family “miraculously” through His Church, so that a not-so-well-off preacher would have money for the funeral of her daughter, and all the family members say that God is with them, and are praising God for His extreme love in their extreme grief.

    My thoughts.

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68. Imonk,

    As David Wallace once said,

    There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan wilderness. One of the guys is religious, the other is an atheist, and the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth beer. And the atheist says: “Look, it’s not like I don’t have actual reasons for not believing in God. It’s not like I haven’t ever experimented with the whole God and prayer thing. Just last month I got caught away from the camp in that terrible blizzard, and I was totally lost and I couldn’t see a thing, and it was 50 below, and so I tried it: I fell to my knees in the snow and cried out ‘Oh, God, if there is a God, I’m lost in this blizzard, and I’m gonna die if you don’t help me.'” And now, in the bar, the religious guy looks at the atheist all puzzled. “Well then you must believe now,” he says, “After all, here you are, alive.” The atheist just rolls his eyes. “No, man, all that was was a couple Eskimos happened to come wandering by and showed me the way back to camp.”

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69. Not all of the Pentecostals “love it”. I have worked as a Pastor in the P.H. Church for more than 20 years and I think you have captured my sentiments exactly with this post. Nothing turns Christianity from being about faith in Christ into a legalistic works of man religion faster than trying to explain why one person “gets their miricle” and another does not.

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70. iMonk,

    I think that miracle testimonies are integral to our presentation of the Gospel. In Galatians 3:2–6, Paul says that the reason that the Galatians should know that justification is by faith and not works of the law is because the Holy Spirit works miracles among them by faith, not works of the law. In 1 Thess 1:5, Paul says that he preached the Gospel, not in word alone, but also in demonstration of the Spirit. He says the same thing to the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 2:4. In Acts 15:8–9, it was the work of the Holy Spirit among the Gentiles that validated them as part of the Christian family.

    In summary, the early church saw the activity of the Holy Spirit in the Christian community as proof that their message was true. In other words, the empty tomb and the resurrection appearances were necessary, but not sufficient grounds for faith.

    Every religion has a “Gospel.” Why should people believe the Bible’s claims over those of the Koran, etc.? The continuing work of the Holy Spirit in the church is validation that the message of the cross is true.

    But what constitutes the work of the Holy Spirit in the church? This is another question. I would be more prone to use the testimony of a transformed (ethical) life than the testimony of someone who was “miraculously” cured of a disease (unless I met an amputee who had a limb grow back—he could have the pulpit any time). I am a skeptic, and I think we need to be discerning about who we let speak in front of our youth.

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71. James,

    I’m very happy you and your loved ones were not in harm’s way and that you’ve made out OK. But, as one exposed to such testimonies as a young person, I have to ask, “How does your story sound to someone who lost loved ones in Katrina”? (I didn’t, by the way.) I ask this question fully aware that your final sentence already indicates a humility and understandable perplexity at your positive circumstances. Do you think that your story comes across as an encouragement to such people or as something much different? I’m sure it’s your intention to uplift; I just wonder whether you’ve considered your audience..

    Peace

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72. Yes!!

    The whole idea of praying for miracles encourages a lazy, faithless religion, not a seeking, striving under grace spirituality.

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73. “I had good friend fault me because I do not tell my students to pray specifically for miracles. And I don’t. I believe Jesus taught us how to pray. Your will be done. Your Kingdom come. Deliver us from evil. It’s not hard.”

    I have an interesting take on praying for something miraculous vs. praying for God’s will to be done. When I was in high school, my mom developed a form of skin cancer in her lower lip and went through a number of different procedures unsuccessfully to treat it. One night I was driving home listening to Whitecross (which is irrelevant, but a fond part of the memory) and praying that God would heal her “if it’s your will”. As soon as it was out of my mouth I realized (or God told me, I don’t know…) that the only reason I said it was because I didn’t really believe he would do it. For me in that moment it was a cop-out. It was a loophole so that if God didn’t heal her I wouldn’t have to ask the hard questions of unanswered prayer. Realizing that, I suddenly was able to pray for my mom’s healing with no doubt in my mind that God would do it. Within days, her doctor called and the latest tests showed no cancer cells. A board of specialists looked at the results and there was absolutely no explanation for it – one day there was cancer and the next day there wasn’t.

    For me, it was a one-time experience and I would never think of treating it as an absolute spiritual principle that praying “if it’s your will” is always a cop-out. I think God also helped me overcome my unbelief – in that moment. It didn’t revolutionize my faith. In fact, I’m realizing lately that for the most part I hardly ask God for anything at all, so that I can still avoid the question of “what if he doesn’t answer”?

    My parents got up in front of the church to give a “testimony”, I think with the intent of encouraging people, not for evangelism.

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74. Martha,

    Encouraging folks to either try to “win the lottery” or “endure” are not the only options. It really isn’t that hard to ask for healing, see a doctor, and ask for the grace to endure as long as need be. Or, to put it another way, Jesus asked to be spared the cross, but ended with “but your will be done.” My point is that you’re not going to get a “don’t pray for miracles” stance from the scriptures, particularly not from Jesus, but I acknowledge one could easily get that from experiences with people, just like one could get a stance of “don’t bother going to church.” The answer to bad practice isn’t no practice, but good practice.

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75. “when in pain, the grieving are blessed by the soft Voice of the Lord passing by . . .”

    That was so lovey…so poetic.

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76. I’m sorry about your sister, John. There is still hope…

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77. Most “miracle” stories are stories of God’s providence, not of His intervening in the natural order.

    I have many stories where in hindsight, I could see the hand of God orchestrating things. In each story He was very involved in every step. At the time, I was unable to see and attribute these actions (some of which included very painful, not happy-happy-joy-joy-type, experiences) to God. Only looking back can I see His providential grace. These are not miracles, but I think they are much more faith-building stories (especially for me and people who know me) because they prove God never left my side, no matter how alone or scared I felt.

    At any rate, during any one of those experiences if I had been the recipient of a miracle it could have been detrimental to my faith in the long run because the work being done in my heart and mind would have been thwarted by the “miracle resolution.”

    My concern is when miracle stories are improperly portrayed. If the focus is not on God’s Will but on my faith, it just feeds that ugly prosperity theology. What do you tell the poor saint who doesn’t get his miracle? “Meh, I guess you just didn’t have faith.” …”Aha! You must have some hidden sin keeping you from getting that miracle.” … “Hmmm, are you sure you’re a Christian?”

    I just think these miracle testimonies can be very dangerous if not conveyed w/ the proper theology.

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78. Technically, the Gospel writers weren’t told “Tell no one”. It was the person who told the writers that disobeyed. And one might argue that Jesus wanted no one to know before his “hour” came – that is, his Passion and Resurrection.

    It’s the same with the “secret” penitential practices of the saints. Wait, how do I know about them if they were secret?

    The principle seems to be that it is better to talk about miracles after the people involved are dead.

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79. Trouble is, by telling people to pray for miracles, the expectation is along the lines of “You will win the lottery!” not “You will be given the grace to endure the hardships of life”.

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80. We should never seek the miracle, but always the miracle worker. I think of when Jesus miraculously fed the crowds and how so many came back expecting to be miraculously fed again. They missed the point – so Jesus explained it to them, “I am the bread of life”. Everything we need is found in Him.

    I think a person that sees Jesus as their “Everything”, will also see everything he’s touches as a miracle.

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81. N. T. Wright made a point in Jesus & the Victory of God that I think may be helpful to mention here. Jesus’ miracles restored people to fellowship in worship that their diseases, disabilities, and demonization prevented them from being part of. Lepers, the blind, the deaf, the crippled, and those who were demonized were all in some way not able to participate in worshipping God in the Temple or synagogue (excepting, MAYBE, the demonized man in the synagogue at the start of Mark’s gospel). Jesus’ healings allowed them to be part of the worship of God’s people and to find work for themselves.

    There is a bit more about the “don’t tell anyone” with Jesus and a leper. He said, “Don’t tell anyone but go and present yourself to the priest and make the offering for cleansing.” In other words Jesus said, “Don’t tell anyone about this but go confirm that you have been cleansed of leprosy as required by the law of Moses.” If even Jesus insists that His healings be verified by independent sources that should be a caution against glibly accepting just any testimony of miraculous healing that comes along. Jesus’ enemies didn’t deny the reality of the miracles but questioned the nature of their provenance.

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82. Interestingly, the reason we know about those miracles is because the eyewitnesses and gospel writers disobeyed Jesus’ command to “tell no one this happened”.

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83. This one is personally very close. I did not experience or see a miracle directly, but there was certainly an extraordinary healing in my family shortly before I was born.
    My mother had Multiple Sclerosis. Bad. It had progressed in just over a year from nothing to a wheelchair, eye patch, paralyzed right arm, the works. Usually, the prospect for this kind of MS is not good.
    Long story short, she went with my dad (who was studying for his MDiv at a Southern Baptist seminary) to a faith healing event (Kathryn Kuhlman) and ended up walking out of there, despite great skepticism going in. She has had no MS symptoms ever since (this was in ’75)
    I was born the next year.
    I have never talked about this much. One reason is that, even though she acknowledges the recovery and saw it herself, my older sister has since walked away from the faith. I am left wondering what the point was. I would not have been born had it not been for her recovery, and the story of this has certainly held me through at times. So there is good fruit. And this was no “coincidence miracle”, either. But if my sister can decide that an in-your-face healing is not miraculous, how much persuasion can be gained from them?
    Perhaps it is enough to simply be thankful for the healing. Clearly these things cannot be the cornerstone of anyones faith.

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84. Sometimes I think that people have the attitude: “God, if you want me to believe in you, show me something really big. Something spectacular.’
    It’s like for these people, the wonders of the Universe aren’t enough.
    They need something ‘bigger’. You get the feeling that nothing will ever be ‘spectacular’ enough for this crowd.

    But God is kinder than that. When these same people are hurting, it is then that He may send ‘glimmers’ of His providence that tease at their cynicism, kind of like the coming of a rainbow on the day of a loved-one’s funeral, when in pain, the grieving are blessed by the soft Voice of the Lord passing by . . .

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85. Great balance, very well put. THANKS

    Greg R

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86. Yes, let’s not be gullible. Yes, let’s not make promises we ought not, or lie about what has or hasn’t happened. And, yes, let’s not announce or treat God as if he’s some kind of errand boy. He deserves our worship if he never does another thing for us, though I know he can’t help himself there. And I don’t really care for the word “miracle” either because of the charlatans and the deism it implies.

    But, depending on what you put in the ‘miracle’ camp, this goes too far: “I do not tell my students to pray specifically for miracles. And I don’t. I believe Jesus taught us how to pray. Your will be done. Your Kingdom come. Deliver us from evil.” If someone read the entire new testament (let alone the whole bible) as a new believer without any hard theological grid, yes, they’d pray the Lord’s prayer as a steady path, but there wouldn’t be anything they would get from the scriptures that would discourage them to also pray for anyone they knew that was sick, or for other things that only God can fix–they’d “cast all their cares upon him,” which frequently concerns things beyond our power but within God’s. Pray about everything, but recognize God doesn’t do everything we ask. Paul did miracles and he also told Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach.

    It also cuts it a little thin to say “Jesus didn’t primarily use miracles to evangelize, but to show the presence of the Kingdom,” especially given the overlap of that kingdom’s presence with the good news; not to mention the apostles asking God to “grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” We’re here to proclaim Jesus and entreat folks to trust him with everything (including things beyond their power). All that we see him do is part of our testimony, part of what makes us his witnesses. Like it or not, unbelievers are going to look for genuine love among Christians, and they’re going to look for miracles–because they want to know if God is real as well as his people.

    Yes, let’s not tolerate people who for whatever reason go beyond what they’ve actually seen. But most of the Gospels will fall in the “suspicious” or “not good for evangelism” category if we’re going to treat testimonies of God acting through Christ or his name as tainted “on biblical grounds.”

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87. Martha was getting at it. What is a miracle? I heard a pastor say that when they made their budget it was a miracle. Huh? Someone wrote a big check. A miracle is when God breaks into the natural order of things and does something supernatural. I used to wonder as a kid why all the miraculous healings reported at church were always tumors that were there once and then were not there any more. No one ever received sight, or new legs, or anything like that. Even the visit to the World Trade Center is more of a happy coincidence, or at best a rich providence, but not a miracle.

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88. I like what you say above. Jesus often told recipients of miracles to keep quiet about it. As you said, there wasn’t a seeking of publicity or flaunting of the supernatural.

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89. Most supernatural events are like gifts from a lover. To an outsider, they often look just like regular gifts, but to the beloved, the gift is obviously from the lover. Maybe it’s her favourite flavour or colour, maybe it’s what she really needed versus what she said she wanted, maybe it’s the card or the remarks written in it, maybe it was the timing of the gift or some other factor, some subtle intangible and personal sign that you can’t really explain or prove.

    I think these types of events are more common than miracles and more effective in conversion. But they aren’t transferable and modular. You can’t flaunt them, just like you can’t prove your husband loves you by showing off his gifts to you and it would be in bad taste to even try. If they are mentioned at all, it is only reluctantly as they are very private.

    Even tangible miracles like the stigmata are usually kept private. Most stigmatists are embarrassed by their wounds and prayed to be relieved of them. Miracles draw attention to the miracle-worker or the recipient of the miracle, but it would seem that this is a tremendous burden and danger, not a great benefit. We are right to be cautious about miracle-workers or miracle-recipients that seek publicity and flaunt the supernatural.

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90. I don’t disagree, nor do I disagree with the post. But there is some basis for sharing.

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91. 2 words: Mike Warnke.

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92. What do you think of “miracle testimonies” and their place in evangelism and Christian communication? – I agree with J. Michael Jones; use with caution and make sure you are being scrupulously honest in every detail. God does work in our lives and we should give him the glory for it. I’ve shared what happened to me with atheist geologists and had them acknowledge it was something remarkable. To wit: in 2005 I went to the emergency room with intestinal blockage. The blockage showed on a CAT scan. The doctors place an NG tube and started me on intravenous antibiotics. The next day I seemed to be OK and the third day they dismissed me. A year later I experienced the same symptoms and returned to hospital. They did the CAT scan and the doctor said he saw no blockage but my appendix looked “funny” (his exact words) so he wanted to remove it. Long story short it turns out my appendix had ruptured – a year ago. I walked around a year with a burst appendix. Now if you research it you’ll find this does on very rare occasions happen. The appendix will rupture into adipose tissue (glad to find out that spare tire was good for something) and be mostly contained. Very rare, usually you die. So—–miracle or not? When I tell the story I say you can believe what you wish, but I am very grateful to a loving and gracious God who mercifully let me live to accomplish His purposes.

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93. “I don’t ask God for miracles. I ask Him to act. If He chooses to act with a miracle, I won’t rule out the possibility. If He chooses to act through nature, I won’t dismiss it as coincidence. I think that’s the proper way to look at it.”

    Well said! I agree completely.

    And as for witnessing, I also agree with others that it is best left to personal conversation. Yes, if a person in the church has been requesting prayer, by all means update the church on their status/healing/whatever. But make sure it is about how good God is! And it cannot be presented as “We prayed and God acted.” It must be presented as “God is great and did this through his grace.” After all we are all non-deserving of God’s grace and miracles, regardless of how we pray or who we ask to pray on our behalf.

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94. As someone who’s mom had a terminal illness, was in a nursing home, was healed in the middle of the night….and that was 6 yrs ago…..
    I completely agree with what you’re saying. She is still fine to this day. But I’m sick of people’s preoccupations with miracles. I don’t know why God healed my mom, but that shouldn’t be the priority, it shouldn’t be the focus, following jesus should be the focus in every circumstance. period. who he is- and knowing him.

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95. I’m more than happy to say that God works miracles today just like he did in apostolic times; I just think that the miracles or acts of the Spirit we see and hear about in churches all around us today by and large are neither. I have no theological bias against “the gifts” or miracles of healing, but I think that what is claimed to be either of these things today generally is not, in spite of the often sincere conviction on the part of those experiencing them.

    Jesus worked miracles I think not just to put on a show, but rather to validate His spiritual message. He allowed a lame man to take up his bed so that it would be clear Jesus had the power to forgive sins. He raised Lazarus from the dead to prove that He (Jesus) really was the resurrection and the life (in the spiritual sense). He fed 5000 with a few loaves to show that He really was the bread of life that came down from heaven. All these miracles were there to support His spiritual claims, not just to show off His magical powers, even if they happened to be put to good use.

    If people were being healed just by passing through the shadow of a minister today and if those healings were unmistakable (lame walking, blind seeing), I’d be the first to believe. But my experience time and again in healing services which I attended with all sincerity is that only those with “back ailments” or “tiredness” or other vague things get healed and that those coming into the service deaf, blind or in a wheelchair leave the same way they came in. I had one person tell me about a member of the congregation who had a short leg which was miraculously extended in a healing service. When I asked if I could go talk to him, he said I could, but cautioned me that because the person didn’t “give glory to God”, the leg reverted to its previous state. How do I answer a person like that who was sharing that miraculous healing story widely? I seem to recall all the lepers Jesus healed remained healed even though only a handful returned to thank Jesus. Situations like this make me think that it’s better to proclaim the real miracle (our salvation) loudly and clearly and leave the sensationalism of other more “carnal” miracles out of it.

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96. isn’ this just a facet of the people who like to show off in church? and by that i mean the ones who have to “agree” with every prayer really loudly, who sit right up front and wave their arms around during the music, making sure that everyone can see them. who watn to teach and lead every group and who use repetative”just” and “lordgojesus” every third word when they pray? it’s lying and attentiongrabbing at worst and a really poor self-image at best. the older and more mature i get, the sadder it makes me and the sorrier i feel for these people. i pray for them that they will stop looking for worth in the eyes of man and rest in their true identity in christ.

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97. Walker, but there are as many instances of Jesus saying “Tell no-one this happened”.

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98. I’m dubious about miracle stories, not because of the people who tell them (who are often firmly convinced that what they are telling was a genuine miracle) but because of the effects they have: first, the word “miracle” gets as abused as the word “love” and is reduced from an amazing direct intervention of God to something along the lines of “I really wanted a new skirt in my favourite colour but when I went to the shops they were all sold out until for no reason I looked under a pile of jumpers and there was the last skirt in my size and the exact colour I wanted – it was a miracle!”; secondly, telling someone skeptical/unbelieving/atheist/mildly dubious a story that boils down to a long string of coincidences is a “miracle” is going to make that person go “No, it was a long string of coincidences that have a rational, non-supernatural explanation” and further perpetuates the cariacture of Christians as believing in fairies at the bottom of our gardens; thirdly, it turns prayer into a “I do this and God does that” bargain; and lastly, what about when you don’t get a miracle? Do you throw up everything you believe then?

    People round here go on pilgrimages to Lourdes, but if you go expecting a miracle to be healed, that’s not the reason or the point, and you’ll be disappointed.

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99. In regards to the Biblical basis for sharing stories, Mark 5:18-20 ” 18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19J esus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” 20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis[c]how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.”

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100. It is easy to get jaded in certain crowds, but visit a couple AA meetings [open, speaker type] and listen to people who just could not gain victory with out God, and then did it with Him. We live in an age where the Kingdom needs to be proclaimed to an unbelieving world.
     I too have heard the same old from the same folk every Sunday, and it just did not sit well. The other side of it is, I have been healed from cancer and chronic pain, can I be silent? Perhaps these stories are best shared one on one in a personal way, not before the body in a dramatic presentation.
     I have rebelled from the Sunday testimony where the Godly and Gifted each week tell the rest of us sinners what a remarkable presence God has had in their lives this week, and what miracles were visited upon them lately. Some times it made the rest of us feel like wallflowers at God’s dance.
     Testimony is “Hey, look at God” not , “Hey look at me.”

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101. Lying for Jesus is still lying and may be the worst kind of lying. But I do think the Church has been so tolerant of lying for Jesus because it is very difficult to question these miracles as we should.

     I just had an experience (too long to tell here) where I asked for prayer for something, but at the same time was working very hard to make it happen through normal, natural means. Well it did happened, and I so no evidence that it was outside of the natural laws, and that does not bother me. However, a lady in church shared how she had prayed for the outcome, then she got the message that “God had done a miracle.” I tried to caution her in front of the whole church that I was working hard on this issue too within normal channels. In the end, I came across as someone who was trying to “take credit away from God.” My point was that we must treat these situations very honest.y.

     This same lady shared how a new believer in her Bible study said that my miracle was “proof to her that God was really there.” But I didn’t want this, probably non-miracle, to be someone’s cornerstone of faith. That is so dangerous. But the peer pressure is tremendous to claim miracles in many Evangelical settings.

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102. I’m Pentecostal, and while I can’t claim to have seen it all, I’ve certainly seen a lot. I have two categories for the people who give miracle testimonies:

     (1) Regular people.
     (2) Wackjobs.

     The wackjobs first. These are the folks who travel from church to church and give their testimony to anyone who will listen to it. Their emotional state is largely and wildly out of control; they’ll get weepy whilst relating a 20-year-old minor experience. Most of their healing stories have to do with other people, and of course those stories can’t be confirmed. All these stories, however, are leading up to a climax of euphoria about how good God is… and they wonder why others can’t attain that same level in the room with them. “Isn’t God GOOD?” Of course He is; but isn’t self-control a fruit of the Spirit?

     The regular people are folks I have known, or known of, for years. They don’t have a thousand miracle stories; they only have two or three. They don’t trot out these stories at the drop of a hat. In fact, they tend not to bring them up too much; not that they’re ashamed of them, but because they recognize that their testimony is what God is doing in their lives, not what God did five or ten years ago. They, like me, won’t just call anything a miracle; we reserve it for the things that are far too coincidental to not be God, or the events that obviously involved divine interference with the natural order. They don’t tell these stories unless there’s a larger point—and while the larger point is sometimes “God still does miracles,” it’s never miracles for miracles’ sake.

     The wackjobs claim that God can bring people to Him through miracles. They’re right. It’s miracles. Not miracle stories. Miracle stories just make the skeptics go, “They’re insane.” Actual miracles make the skeptics go, “Maybe there’s something to this God idea.” And actual miracles—if you’ve heard the former skeptics tell their miracle stories—rarely happen with the wackjob present. God usually does it when no one’s expecting it. I think He prefers to not work with the people who are so highly suspect. (But sometimes He’ll take what He can get.)

     I don’t ask God for miracles. I ask Him to act. If He chooses to act with a miracle, I won’t rule out the possibility. If He chooses to act through nature, I won’t dismiss it as coincidence. I think that’s the proper way to look at it.

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103. I give you a second. I don’t much like the testimony game period. Seems to me most of it is just bragging about how bad you once were. This probably does more damage than good as it gives kids ideas about what they might be able to get away with. The old adam never dies. I read a Bible Story about a guy visiting a prostitute or seducing a girl, and later showing faith in God, and wonder, “could I do that?” I know, call me sinful and depraved, but you have me pegged. So on that level I don’t think they are all that good.
     Then they brag about where they are now, and it sounds like so much self righteous snobbery I have to hold my nose and look for the exit. I about puked once when a visiting pastor told us at seminary that the sermon was the place for the pastor’s testimony. And we wonder why the synod is in decline.

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104. I share your caution, maybe to a fault; and add to the list reallly out there conversion stories, like the ex-mafia hit man/drug dealer who ALWAYS carried two or three loaded firearms into a room…..yadayadayada…… I don’t doubt MR. Mafiosi’s story, but what is the fallout (or the POINT) to that story except that the rest of us church boyz are B_O_R_I_N_G……or something like that. We start LOOKING for the sizzle in order to ‘compete’. Like rising from the dead needed some more sizzle. LORD help us, and save us from ourselves…..

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105. I know that story isn’t what you’re driving at, but I’m not sure the overt miracles are always as wonderful or interesting as the little, yet cumulative, expressions of God’s providence and care.

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106. Personally, I’d rather hear “I didn’t get a “miracle” and God carried me through” testimonies.

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107. While my story isn’t terribly dramatic I still recognize and like to acknowledge the work of God in how my family made it through the aftermath of Katrina:

     The story of God’s work actually starts 3 months before the storm when we were finally able to get the NOBTS maintenance to permanently resolve a leaky roof on our apartment building on campus. Around the same time our church’s pastor resigned his position at the seminary and announced his departure from our church to take a VP position at another school in the northern part of Lousiana; our worship leader also went with him. My wife was also in the middle of her third trimester with our second daughter. Like with most hurricanes that entered the Gulf we watched Katrina carefully and prepared for the possible evacuation. The school didn’t come until the Saturday to let us know that they were mandating the evacuation of the campus (less than 48 hours before landfall). We packed the last of our things and headed out. We had decided based on the track of the storm to go with our western most evacuation plan which took us to stay with our former worship leader in his new home in northwest Louisiana.

     Had it not been for our pastor and worship leader moving from New Orleans my family and the half-dozen other families that stayed with them would have had to go somewhere else. But my wife went into labor early Sunday morning and being premature she needed special attention. It just so happened that the place we evacuated to had a regional hospital that was fully prepared to deal with my wife and premature child’s needs. In fact, the doctor that delivered our daughter mid-morning was called out of a worship service at his local church where extended family of friends we had in Florida had received word about my wife being in premature labor and so the delivery doctor’s church was praying for us around the same time that he was delivering our daughter (none of this was known until days later).

     So, we ended up watching Katrina make landfall on T.V.. We remained with our former pastor for nearly two weeks before figuring out where to go. My wife and children headed for Florida to stay with her family and I headed to Louisville because a friend had put me in touch with the folks at Southern, who were making accommodations available for displaced students. Once in Louisville I spent a week in the singles dorms while working with the housing office there to find appropriate quarters for my family. We finally got connected with a retired couple willing to let my family live in their condo rent free while they went to Florida for the Winter. So I made the arrangements and a month after evacuating had my family back with me in a new city. Of course, I needed a job since NOBTS cut my employment at the end of September while they tried to sort out the situation. It so happened that SBTS needed a webmaster because one of their current ones was leaving. So by October I was re-employed.

     In October my father and I were able to take a U-Haul back to New Orleans for a one-day only salvage trip that NOBTS was coordinating. So, we drove back into the city shortly after the levees had been temporarily repaired and the water pumped out. We knew that our building had 10 feet of water rise around it, but since we had been on the second floor we thought we would take a chance and go back. We drove into the hollow shell of New Orleans and onto the campus where the grass was matted and grey from the garbage in the water that had flooded over it. The first floor of our building was completely but the water had not risen quite high enough to enter our apartment. We were able to salvage all my books, and various other items of value, leaving mostly clothes and other soft items which had been exposed to mold in the absence of electricity and cooling. Our friends and neighbors in an adjacent building lost everything, even though they had been on the second floor, because their roof had leaked substantially in a number of places.

     By God’s grace we had a place to evacuate to that was perfect for the events that came upon us because of the decisions made by our pastor and worship leader months before the storm. Because of the work of the maintenance department to fix our leaky roof months before the storm we were able to salvage many of our belongings. Because of God’s call of one Southern student to go and serve elsewhere I was able to find a job shortly after the evacuation. And because of a couple vacationing snowbirds my family had a place to live while we tried to sort our life back out.

     The story isn’t dramatic in the way that many “miracle” stories are, but I believe it reflects the power of God to preserve our family in the face of devastation. The only thing I am left wondering is “God, thank you! But, why us?”

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108. I’m with you on this one, Michael. It’s a challenge not to be grouped with the cessationists, (and I am emphatically not a cessasionist), but I also know God is not Santa. I think it is at best misleading and at worst damaging to focus on what God _can_ do at the expense of what God has _already done_ on our behalf in Christ. And lord knows there’s plenty of flat-out loonies who think God does miracles because we’re “obedient”. Puh-leeze.

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109. As someone who was raised in Nigerian Pentecostal churches (who are harder on this than their American counterparts), I’ve become all too weary of miracle testimonies. I experienced overload from those first 15 years of my life. There was so much focus on the testimony that it seemed that God was some form of Santa – ready to bless you and perform miracles if you beg Him hard enough. If you were pursuing holiness, it was because you knew that God will bless you for your “holiness”. I still remember the songs people sang – they were mostly about a miracle-working, demon-casting God.

     I think it puts too much focus on one aspect of God. I’m Episcopalian now and I still believe in miracles, but if they don’t happen to me often, meh. The last miracle I can think of is God directing my father to visit the WTC on the eve of September 11, when he really wanted to go see it the next day. Like you, I just am not fond of the testimonies, and it just makes people think “Oh, God is there to bless me! Yay!”

     There are hills and valleys in the Christian life. I’m going through a crazy valley right now.

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