Open Mic: A Sad but Necessary Discussion

Posted byChaplainmikePosted inOpen Thread

By Chaplain Mike.

The Roman Catholic Church is having a nightmare, and can’t wake up. No longer can the clergy sexual abuse problem be passed off as “an American problem.” Recent developments in Ireland, Germany, and Italy have gotten the world’s attention and criticism has risen to a new level, even to the point where some are calling for the Pope to resign.

This is not something I would prefer to discuss. The subject is unseemly and embarrassing. Strong feelings abound on all sides. There is so much we don’t even know yet.

However, it is my opinion that Christians of all stripes ought to be talking about this, because no matter what one thinks of the Roman Catholic Church, it is clear that the backlash will affect the witness and credibility of all people who confess the faith.

So, in this Open Mic I would like to hear from Catholics and non-Catholics alike, who would be willing to share thoughtful perspectives on this crisis.

I anticipate certain comments:

  • Certain Protestants will say this is merely further evidence that the RC church is apostate.
  • Others will say the problem stems from the requirement of celibacy for clergy.
  • Still others will link this to an overall deficient theology of sexuality promulgated by the church.
  • Some will point to the problem of hierarchy and authority in the Roman church; the structure of institutional power hinders true accountability for the guilty and justice for the victims.
  • In a similar vein, commenters will pin the blame on a culture of mystery and secrecy attached to the roles of priests and bishops that has traditionally led to hesitancy in accusing clergy or holding them accountable. This extends to what some say is an outdated system of justice within the church that requires secrecy and a process that fails to protect or gain justice for victims.
  • Certain Catholics might say that the problem is not unique to the Roman church, just more easily identified because of the institutional and clerical nature of the church. The percentage of abusers in other religious organizations may be the same; we just don’t have the data.

Whatever your view, I’d like to hear your contribution. I will give plenty of leeway in this discussion, but I won’t tolerate meanness, name-calling, or abusive language.

I would especially like to hear from our Catholic friends and learn what is happening on the ground, in your local parish with regard to this issue. Is it being discussed? Is your priest speaking or writing publicly about it? Is your church community going the extra mile to model integrity in this area and protect children?

The mic is yours.

151 thoughts on “Open Mic: A Sad but Necessary Discussion”

  1. The problem with that comment is it fails to take into account that we have professedly “born again” people in professedly ‘born again’ groups doing the same things. (NB: Just because the RCC doesn’t talk unceasingly about being ‘born again’ doesn’t mean we don’t believe you have to be ‘born again.’ We just look at it in a different fashion.) Now, if you change the first sentence to “all people” versus “all churches and denoms” you have a much stronger argument.

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  2. All churches and denominations are basically divided into two groups: those who are ‘born again’ and those who are not; this includes the clergy. Therefore it is possible for some clergy to be guilty of some of the most horrid sins.

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  3. We’re still operating on a village-church model, which works fine in a village…or even in a small-town parish such as mine, where you’ll see Father out shopping on Main Street or going out to eat with friends. We are a parish family/community in fact as well as name. But in a large-city parish, with 3,000+ families, where only so many people can personally know the priest, and he can enjoy urban anonymity as easily as the next person? We haven’t figured that part out yet. And you see the results.

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  4. I am a former RC. Went to parochial schools, both grade school and high school. I am one of 11 children in a big old Catholic family. I also seriously considered and actively pursued religious life in my twenties. I then met and married an ex-nun, conservative Carmelite. We were both conservative catholics, and lived in those circles. My room mates were Regnum Christi members, a lay apostolate of the Legionaries of Christ. To make a long story short through study of the Scripture and much prayer, I became utterly convinced of the Doctrines of Grace as espoused by Reformed Theology, and am now pursuing an MDiv at Covenant Theological Seminary PCA. Several things drove me away from the Roman church, not least of which was the serious doctrinal issues. But the response to the scandals from most of the conservative catholic culture I was involved with was nothing short of terrifying. The posture was immediately defensive of the church and dismissive of the severity of the sin. I am weary of statistical evidence, because it is notoriously unreliable and easy to twist, so when someone says, “If you look at it statistically, the Roman church is no worse than any one else.” I’m not utterly convinced. But in my own life, experiential evidence has spoken volumes. Every parish I have been involved in and every catholic school my family has been involved in has had some abuse issue from the catholic clergy, without exception. Then when I lived with the Regnum Christie members and the news broke about Fr. Marciel, a man they practically worshipped, they would not acknowledge it, discuss it, criticize it. In fact, some still maintain his innocence! There seems to me a kind of stockholm syndrome mentality going on, the likes of which gave me the strong feeling of cultish bondage. One Regnum Christie member friend of mine has had terrible experience after terrible experience and yet won’t leave “the fold”, and has tried to convince me to re-enter…..Um no thanks. In our home church, which is by no means perfect, we have community meetings which involve Scripture, prayer and transparency. Our pastors come before us and give an account of their ministry and life. It’s not like we rake them over the coals, but it provides room to bring things into the light, for exposure, and repentance if needs be. We do exercise Biblical church discipline; persistent, unrepentant sin is addressed and dealt with, always pastorally and with grace and sometimes with severe mercy. I know our pastors, I know their families, we pray, walk, talk, cry, sing and do life together. I never experienced anything like this in the roman church. Nothing even close. We revered priests but in a creepy way, they were always…other. I don’t see the roman priesthood as congruent with the apostolic witness in Scripture. Acorn to oak tree analogies just don’t cut it. I have been labeled a heretic and schismatic by many catholics. My response? Look at my wrist as if I am wearing a watch, at best I’ve got 50 years left in me, and then the Judgement. We’ll let Jesus render that verdict. His Word is Truth. God is True and every man a liar. He knows His sheep.

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  5. While they (Priests, Bishops, Pope) are not THE CHURCH, they are an integral element in the Church. Without Bishops, there are no Priests. Without Priests, there are no sacraments. That’s part and parcel of the fourth mark of the Church: Apostolic.

    As Christ is the Head of the Church as a whole, the Pope is his Vicar, with responsibility for the “Church Millitant” here on earth. Each Bishop is the Pastor of his Church (diocese) and all authority exercised by his Priests in that diocese comes by virtue of his authority, including teaching authority, and authority to administer sacraments, etc.. A Priest could not even offer a public Mass without authority from the local bishop. Unfortunately, some Bishops misused that authority with regard to the scandal, and should be held accountable, instead of protecting their flock, as a Pastor bonus (Good Shepherd) does. St. John Chrysostom said, and Dante painted, that the floor of hell would be paved with the skulls of bad bishops.

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  6. I was abused by a pedophile for 10 years, beginning at age 2. This man was my own biological father. I can’t describe how it was to live like this for so long, except to say that it was a nightmare. At the same time I was attending a parochial school. From the very first time that I heard of Jesus, at 5 years old, I loved Him and believed Him. As I grew older, I regarded my church and school as my safe haven. I wished I could have just stayed there all the time. But each day I had to go home. This dual life has produced many lasting difficulties for me. As I get older, my thoughts get more complicated both worldly and spiritually. However, I know my faith is secure. And Jesus has given me much peace in the knowledge of belonging to Him.

    I have tried to think about the differences between my situation and those that have suffered from Catholic priests, or any church worker. I wonder if it is worse coming from your own father or a priest of the church. A priest is called “Father.” It seems to me they are equally damaging. Both involve huge trust, and now trust is totally broken. I have heard in the past that if you have a “bad” father it is easy to get this mixed up with the Father in heaven. Trust will be a problem for both. People will blame the father or the priest or an uncle or cousin and lose their faith in God. I am grateful to God that I never got confused about this. My heavenly Father, and my earthly father, were two seperate entities.

    Back when this happened to me (50+ years ago), there was seemingly no help. Children weren’t believed. And it was completely quiet in society as if “it” didn’t exist. The first time I heard a news report of an arrest of a molester, I was in my early 40’s. Hearing the report verbalized stung me and made me feel numb.

    Did I ever try to tell anyone? Yes. Policeman. School officials. Pastor. A judge. Social workers. Psychiatrist. Counselors. There was no help or advice given except to try to help me feel better. The judge–told me I should be a support group counselor. I had not overcome this, how could I lead anyone else?

    After the Pastor was made aware of the circumstances (he, in fact, told me not to tell anyone else about it), continued to let my dad take communion for years. And when he left church, he continued in his ways. That brings me to the problem. Church discipline. I honestly don’t see it happening, and haven’t in my 60 years of church-going. If these professionals didn’t know what to do, how could I? Should’nt he have been put out of the church? Did they want to avoid the problem? I think so. I believe church discipline should be exercised. It is documented in Scripture. But we tend to only emphasize Grace. Which I totally believe in. A pastor tends to only want to deal in love and forgiveness. But is Grace meant to be a blanket forgiveness for known unrepentant people? That is a major problem I have had with church teaching for all these years. I honestly couldn’t understand. Also, training about this area must have been lacking for these professionals. If my dad would have been put out, or arrested and put in prison, would the church have aided my family? I don’t think so. In the end, everyone is to blame. We practice religion more than we practice God’s Word.

    In the end for me, my greatest salvation and healing are from Jesus Christ. Jesus helped me remain sane. That does not mean all of my repercussions have ceased. I am excited for heaven where all will finally be over.

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  7. There’s been sexual abuse in my family. My nephew was abused (though not by a priest); he did not tell his parents, but he did turn around and abuse his younger sister and brother. My sister’s family is in wreckage and there is no amount of counseling that will fix it. So no, to answer some commentator above, I’m not so “pious” that I can’t give a thought to the victims. I very nearly left the Catholic Church out of absolute disgust – but doing that would have been to walk away from Christ as well. I wanted to (and sometimes still do); I couldn’t. “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life.”

    What I am watching most closely is not the diocesan scandals, but the scandal surrounding the Legionaries of Christ religious order. In brief, their founder was an abuser who founded and structured the order specifically to suit his habits; the order is under a Vatican investigation which concludes at the end of April. I’m an armchair analyst but if the Vatican wants to be taken seriously, it will dissolve that order and find other places for the priests in it. There are many good men in that order but it’s ultimate reason for existing was to permit Maciel to find and exploit his victims. It needs to be shut down.

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  8. This is the best analysis I have seen so far:

    http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/2010/04/the-culture-of-atomic-eros-and-the-hatred-of-the-church/

    Don’t let the title put you off- the reality is that there is indeed a problem in the Church AND that its enemies are using it to try to weaken, if not destroy, it. Both are true, which is something the polarizers choose to disregard.

    I went through my crisis of faith when the first widespread reporting of these scandals took place several years ago. Our diocese had one of the more egregious cases- our bishop had accepted for ordination a man whose own family, including his annulled ex-wife, had submitted affadavits stating clearly that he should not be allowed access to children.

    After working through the initial horror, anger and disgust, I came to a couple of conclusions:
    There is nothing in the BIble or the Catechism that condones the sexual abuse of minors.
    Molestors and their enablersare sinful abberations of what the Church actually teaches.
    The vast majority of priests are decent, even holy, men.
    The Church was learning from its past actions, which were shameful for whatever resaons you would like to name.
    There was no church body that did not have the same problem. (Note: this is not the “everyone does it” excuse. It simply means that there was no other “perfect” church to go to as an alternative.)
    I couldn’t conceive of a life without the sacraments, a life separated from the Church. (For our non-Catholic readers who think this is Ecclesiolatry, all I can say is our understanding of “church” can be profoundly different- it’s hard to explain.)

    That is why I decided to remain.

    I ‘ll second other commenters : get the facts- from all sides- first. Be aware that Church documents may contain technical terms that should be understood in their particular context- like legal terms. If they were originally in a foreign language, they need to be translated correctly. Consider time lines. And then come to your conclusions.

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  9. Some years ago, the Oakland Diocese held an amazing ceremony in which survivors of clergy abuse told their stories (no press allowed during the service), to about several dozen priests who listened quietly, then went through a formal public apology and commitment to prevent further abuse. As I recall, at least half the speakers came from protestant backgrounds; one or two were Jewish. The litany of the service and resources can be found at http://www.oakdiocese.org/survivors/index.htm

    It was a touching service, just a start — and notably so far from the crap that keeps coming out of the Vatican, especially labeling those who question the party line as gossips.

    Also, as I recall, the impetus for the service and the various services of the diocese to deal with clergy abuse came from the nuns and others who listened to the pain all around them.

    As a child, I knew such abuse happened, because my dad led the charge in our protestant, evangelical church to deal with a suspected molester; he was outvoted. The pastor stayed, because no one could believe such a thing, so they just called dad un-Christian and other terrible names.

    Abuse comes in many forms, in all faiths/ The more we’re unwilling to face it, the worse it gets. The more we are willing to speak truth to power and hear it said to us, the more we can clean up the deep wells of wisdom in all faiths. And God knows, we are all thirsty for truth, whatever denominational well it comes from.

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  10. Thanks for the messages of support and love. I didn’t mean to derail the conversation off of the topic, but I just learned about Mike’s death right before I saw this topic, and the juxtaposition of that and Mike’s healing role in my own experience could not be coincidence.

    The hardest thing for me to admit to myself is that deep, deep down, I understand that these people who betray the most intimate trusts STILL can receive God’s grace and forgiveness. There IS a place for these to be restored to the body, but I can’t say that they should ever be leaders again. Just because I forgive you doesn’t mean I should trust you.

    My favorite quote about forgiveness comes from Beth Nimmo, the mother of Columbine victim Rachel Scott. She says (and I paraphrase) that forgiveness is not a one-time event, but a daily discipline. She says that she chooses daily to lay down her pain and pick up forgiveness, not for the benefit of the perpetrators, but for herself, to ease the anger and bitterness in her soul.

    There are even days that I hope my abusers, and by extension any clergy who would commit these acts, will reconcile themselves with God. I still don’t ever want to be around them, but I do hope they get themselves right with God, and with the civil authorities. I think Jesus may have been talking about something like these priests when he said ‘Render unto Caesar… There is, and should be no protection from double jeopardy – discipline in the ecclesiastical and the secular realm is appropriate and necessary.

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  11. That sword cuts both ways, if you want to go down that road. Of course, that road is a road best not traveled here.

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  12. Our “pool” problem is not a problem of getting candidates to consider the priesthood. Our “pool” problem is keeping the good ones. Read “Goodbye Good Men.” They were/are being run out of some seminaries. How do you think the homosexual subculture exists?

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  13. No, you just trade one problem for another. That’s based on the fact that the problem in general is not restricted to celibate clergy. You just have mostly same-sex targeting in the Catholic case.

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  15. Who’s glossing over anything? We’re as horrified as any; it happened in our house! Your claims against the Pope are based on what? Impartial reporting? Certainly not. You must be as blinded by your own bias as the international mainstream media. Never let the facts get in the way of a good scandal.

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  16. The Pope said PLENTY in his letter to the Irish. You’d do well to read it. You’d do well to get your facts straight with regard to Benedict XVI’s fight against molesters since being the head of the CDF and as Pope. You’re just as bad as the NYT, spreading calumnous non-factual statements as fact (see the Murphy case, and bad Italian translations) without checking sources, or in the case of the translation issue, intentionally (I believe) ignoring the facts.

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  17. Actually that would be the statement at the top of this subthread where you blabber on about attending Easter Mass,, lighting a candle, etc.

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  18. Matthew, you are living proof of Abp. Sheen’s statement about people not hating the actual RCC, but what they THINK is the RCC. This statement below is my proof.

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  19. What is this “works-based” salvation you keep mumbling about? Every good, orthodox Catholic knows nothing a person does gains him salvation. Without Jesus, my works are worthless. I also know that faith without works is DEAD.

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  20. The book title was “Goodbye Good Men: How Liberals Brought Corruption Into the Catholic Church” by Michael S. Rose

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  21. Oh, and I’ll leave you with this thought I found on a reply to a recent article on Yahoo! News regarding the scandal.

    Recall that 8.33% of the orginal Church leadership was so utterly corrupt
    that it was party to the betrayal and murder of Christ Himself. Should we
    expect better? Yet the antipathy here has a pedigree extending back to the
    courtyard in Palestine where screams of “Crucify Him! Crucify Him!” were
    first heard.

    We now enter Holy Week, toward Good Friday and the Sacred Triduum. Could
    there be a more timely affirmation of the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic
    Church?

    Jpelham (yahoo profile)

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  22. First of all, I want to start out by telling you all that this Catholic is very disappointed in what some members of of my Church’s hierarchy have done and/or failed to do in this scandal. I am NOT, however, disappointed in The Church, as I believe as She proposes, that She is the Bride of Christ, and is not a mere human institution.

    I don’t believe Priest celibacy is the issue. If it was, as others have stated, we wouldn’t have sexual abuse by persons in positions of authority in Protestant denominations, schools, families, etc. I DO believe, based on factual data in the John Jay study, and the best information available from modern psychology, that the problem is a problem of psycho-sexually immature men being allowed into positions of authority with respect to minors. Heterosexual psycho-sexually mature men are unlikely to engage in sexual behavior with other males of any age. In general, I would suppose similar could be said regarding any sex regarding adult:child attraction, regardless of whether it’s same- or opposite-sex attraction. I’m not condoning same-sex behavior, nor am I condemning those who have the cross of same-sex attraction.

    We don’t have a Priest shortage due to lack of vocations. We have no shortage of vocations. We DO have a problem with some less-than-orthodox seminaries who essentially ran off good candidates to the priesthood because they were regarded as “Too Conservative” (read: too orthodox in their Catholicism), and a reading of “: How Liberals Brought Corruption Into the Catholic Church” by Michael S. Rose explains all about it, including how this helped create the conditions for the scandal.

    We don’t know much about the Vatican handling of all this, because, frankly, I don’t think much of it actually got to the Vatican; certainly not in a timely manner. One of the reasons why what did get to the JPII administration is due to a little-known fact that during the Nazi era and up through the Cold War, the enemies of the Church in Berlin, Moscow, etc. would use claims of homosexual behavior against religious authorities they wanted to silence. JPII and his “Polish Mafia” et al. tended to be dismissive of such claims, having seen it before, and would naturally be expected to. That’s not to excuse any actual inaction in Rome, but it does allow for better understanding of the bigger problem of official inaction in Rome. I don’t think the same applies to +Ratzinger as Card. Prelate of the CDF (he’s largely responsible for the changes in procedure and responsibility that speed the process of laicization of Priest-abusers) and certainly not since becoming Pope Benedict XVI, where he’s spoken in no uncertain terms that this will not be tolerated. Papa Benedetto has taken the reins. The hard part is getting some unruly mules to respond to plow-reining when they’re used to neck-reigning. Luckily, IMHO, some of those unruly mules (the bishops) are closing fast on their 75th birthday, and in the RCC, that means mandatory submission of a request to retire. The Pope doesn’t have to accept, but if a bishop isn’t true to the Faith and disciplines of the Church, you can probably bet it will be accepted of him.

    I have no issue with valid news reports, but lately, it’s just been a “pile-on” and much of it poorly sourced, heavily inaccurate. In the Milwaukee Fr. Murphy case, it’s been particularly poor, with an online translation of a CDF document from Italian to English passed off by the NYT writer as being damning evidence of CDF misfeasance, when the Judicial Vicar, Fr. Brundage warned in his letter that “It is a very rough translation and the computer certainly cannot distinguish some of the peculiarities of canon law.” See catholicnewsagency.com/news/italian_political_paper_ny_times_needs_consultants_more_than_vatican_does/

    I can’t prove it, but the very tone of some articles is an indicator to me of what Saul Alinsky and like-minded individuals describe as “never letting a good scandal go to waste.” The timing of this last is certainly an indicator. Let’s face it: Rome is very much against what most of the mainstream press supports, namely ABORTION. There is no single larger and more VOCAL OPPONENT of abortion than the Roman Catholic Church.

    Don’t be confused by anyone who tells you that the mainstream Catholic subscribes to “America Magazine” or the “National Catholic Reporter” (aka “Distorter”) or what’s printed in them. They are the dissenting viewpoint. If 10% of the Catholics in the US subscribe to either or both, I’d be surprised. Per searchdotcom “America” circulation is about 45,000, and NCReporter has about 44,000 (per Catholicdotorg records for all Catholic print media) and that same report shows Indiana-based “Our Sunday Visitor,” a typical, middle-of-the-road mainstream (read, more-or-less orthodox) Catholic news and Catholic Life journal gets 66,000, and NCRegister (the orthodox Catholic newspaper), gets 35,500. There are some 70 million Catholics in the US.

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  24. Now that you’ve mentioned it, I ran a quick google search and only found two non-Catholic, non-secular sources. And one I couldn’t tell who the source was. Not sure if I need to be more specific in the search engine or what, but it seems like it shouldn’t require much prompting.

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  25. Joanie, “Married Priests” (as well as “Woman Priests” and “Gay Priests”) are the one-size-fits-all Agenda Cure-all for EVERY problem the Church has. It’s almost an automatic reflex reaction among “Catholic Activists (TM)”.

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  26. I’m in Furry Fandom. I’ve been falsely accused of Bestiality just because I draw and write about upright talking animals. (Including a month-long bout of E-mail harassment/cyberbullying several years ago.)

    Now everyone wearing a Roman collar or ordained in the RCC will get the same treatment, Pedophile until proven otherwise.

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  27. Freudian Slip, Pat.

    Shouldn’t that be “We’re the GUYS with the funny hats”?

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  28. Also we have generated a Christian culture where criticizing is ‘Gossip’, no matter how it’s done, anytime you point out the obvious there’s someone who criticizes you for being critical!

    While actual Gossip runs rampant through a LOT of congregations.

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  30. The Treaty of Westphalia ended the Reformation Wars in 1648, Matthew.

    Sorry you never got the news. or decided to lay down your arms when you did.

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  31. During the Napoleonic Wars, didn’t a French archbishop once tell Napoleon that “If us priests and bishops haven’t been able to destroy the Church in the past 1800 years, what makes you think you can?”

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  32. Things has gotten even worse since you posted this.

    The official Vatican reply on the news this morning sounded like whoever was in charge of damage control was drinking the Conspiracy Kool-Aid, claiming it was all a conspiracy of lies “by Powerful Lobbies” attacking the Church.

    The morning drive-time radio jocks are having a field day with this, including “Benedictus, the former Hitler Youth”, “Cardinal-pedophile Mahoney” being replaced by “Archbishop-pedophile (new archbishop’s name)”, and “John Paul II, Patron Saint of Child Molestors”.

    Has there been any commenting from Evangelicals on this? Four years ago when cable channels were “All Da Vinci Code, All the Time”, there were Evangelicals cheering on the movie to stick it to those Romish Papists. With no concept of themselves ending up as Collateral Damage.

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  36. In what now seems like a previous life, I worked with CPS (Child Protective Services). In training and discussions with the senior member of that unit, a fellow who had been doing it for about twenty years, I came to understand that one must look at this issue from the perspective of the offender/molester to at least partially understand how they choose their victims.

    People who have an unhealthy interest in children look for situations where there is a child, preferably numerous children, that the adult can have easy access to. This can potentially be any situation or place where children are present – a school, public park, scouting, public swimming pool. churches, family gatherings, or even a neighbor’s child. Adults looking for children especially look for accessible children – where the adult is not bound by lots of guidelines, background checks and so on. Ideal situations involve those where the adult can be alone with the children – in a locker room, in a tent on a camping trip, in the back room at a family gathering, in a car while taking the child home and so on.

    Obviously, incidents of child molestation can be significantly reduced in these situations when strict guidelines are in place that structure who may have access to children and under what circumstances. This involves doing a criminal background check on the adults before they are ever allowed access to the children, never allowing an adult to be alone with a child under any circumstances, insisting that all children with adults be in a place that is open to the view of other people and a host of other guidelines.

    I am aware of one church that instituted such measures and received an angry response from several congregants. Three deacons/ elders left the church over this “nonsense”. My acquaintance who knew of the situation but was not part of that church, but who did have access to criminal records, looked up those men and discovered that they had good reason to leave – They did not want the church to see a criminal background check for them because they had had certain offenses on their records for you-know-what. In discussing this with an insurance company that insures churches, the person from the insurance company told me that they had seen similar occurrences on numerous occasions.

    Just as most burglars tend to choose houses or businesses to which they can have easy access and which are unguarded, child molesters usually behave similarly. When strict and multiple measures are in place that restrict their access to particular children, molesters often look for easier marks.

    The problem is not unique to churches (protestant or RC), to scouting or to certain families. As the old CPS worker said, you may find it wherever you find children, especially groups of poorly supervised children.

    The differences appear to me to be related to what guidelines and protections the group has in place, and on those occasions when a suspected incident occurs how the group responds to that incident. If an inappropriate situation actually occurred, was the adult offender appropriately dealt with? If a molestation occurred, was the incident reported to the police immediately and was the adult banned from all future contact with children in that organization?

    Obviously, families, churches, scouting and many organizations that discover “uncle Joe” or “brother Bob” has molested a child want to keep it quiet. They fear the public eye. That is exactly what molesters have counted on for many years. Many of them have been cursed, threatened and sent packing so that they could ply their trade elsewhere. But, in reality, nothing much ever really happened to them.

    Strict guidelines regarding who may access children and under what circumstances may deter some molesters, or at least send them elsewhere. Knowing that if they do offend that they will end up on the front page of the news, which they can read while they are in their jail cell will deter some. Then there are those who probably can not be deterred but who must be institutionalized for the protection of our children.

    The church should not be in the business of protecting child molesters. Perhaps the continued glare of publicity and lawsuits will convince the church of this. If not, then of course the church should lose every piece of real estate and every dollar in every bank account until there is not a cent remaining.

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  37. I am very sorry to hear about the abusive experiences you and your wife have been subjected to. I cannot imagine how horrible it must have been for you to be beaten and raped for 8 years. I hope and pray that you and your wife will be totally healed by the love of God.

    It’s great that you are getting some comfort from the church ritual within the Mass. There is a gentle spirit (actually, the Holy Spirit) that is there among and within the people and hopefully the Holy Spirit will soothe you. I wish there was a healthy, God-loving couple who could meet with the two of you regularly to offer safe friendship and healing prayers. But I can see where you would be wary of anybody at this point. It is tragic to read the the church spends “no time restoring those who daily live with the consequences of the church’s inaction.”

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  38. Donald,

    My heart and prayers go out to you and your wife. In your testimony, you wrote that you felt “possessed” and I don’t doubt it. In your life was an oppression very actively trying to separate you from God. The Vatican Exorcist Gabriel Amorth has talked about how the sex abuse scandal is the devil at work in the Vatican and I believe that to be true.

    What happened to you was not from God but rather from weak men who had given into their temptations.

    You coming on to this site however shows hope that you haven’t abandoned your faith in God and that you will continue to seek Him.

    Also, I am in total agreement that the Church needs to focus more on the victims and not on the reformation of the predators.

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  39. “When members of the Obama administration declare that the Roman Catholic church is public enemy number one, I start to wonder if this isn’t being orchestrated to discredit and silence the Catholic leadership regarding opposition to Obama’s social policies.”

    Please offer some concrete attributions from the administration itself from members of the administration itself, found on White House websites.

    Apart from those links this is Conspiratorial? Yes. Ridiculous? Yes. Unattributed rumors?
    Unless and until you can produce those official sources, Yes!

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  40. I would quibble a little where you say “We make mistakes. None of us is above mistakes or covering them up. This is why Jesus came. This should not hurt our witness, though it likely will mostly because we have given people the impression that being Christian means being above things like this. To the contrary, Christians should be giving the impression that they are very likely the worst among sinners. Why? Because no one is any better than anyone else in God’s eyes.”

    Part of the Christian journey is sanctification. It should make a difference in our lives that we are saved. The Holy Spirit living within us enables us not to sin, and the normal Christian journey should look like a steady progression into holiness. Minor ups and downs, yes, of course. Stumbling in sin, obviously that will happen—and then we ask for forgiveness. But the overall trend should be of progress. For any Christian, and especially those who are in leadership positions, to continue in sin and then say, well, we are the worst of sinners, does disservice to the Gospel and grieves the Spirit. People will not be won to Christ if they see no difference in the lives of those who become Christians. And for Christians to be charged again and again with truly heinous sins, what does that do for our witness. It certainly does not help.

    The concept of being the worst of sinners means that as Christians we should so abhor sin as to see any transgressions on our part for the evil they are. It doesn’t mean we should sin freely and then shrug and say we’re the worst. I think Paul had some things to say about that.

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  42. I’m coming to this topic a few days late, but if I may let me speak from a side that I think is being inadvertently marginalized, though some have hit on it briefly; the physical and spiritual welfare of the victim. I will attempt to keep things anonymous, but in order to tell the story there are facts that will probably serve to identify me to some people. Understand that this is not something I discuss lightly, but there are compelling reasons for me to post here and now.

    I the interest of full disclosure, I am:
    1. a victim of childhood physical and sexual abuse by lay clergy (who were also family members),
    2. the husband of a wife who was raped by our pastor,
    3. a former lay minister,
    4. aching for healing, but terrified to go to the church yet again,
    5. amazed that I still maintain a belief and faith in God.

    Let me address these as I am able.

    1. For eight years I was continually beaten and raped by 4 male members of my extended family, who I lived with. At the time the abuse began, one was already a deacon, and 2 of the others became deacons during this time. At the risk of being graphic, I have more childhood memories of standing in church singing hymns about the love of God while parts of my body were aching surrounded by those who caused me pain, than of any other memory of sacraments or service. Despite this I became a Christian in the Southern Baptist church at an early age.

    As I got older, and my Sunday School teachers began talking about the importance of sexual purity, I despaired, knowing that not only had I often had sex on Saturday night, but in addition with another male, making me feel doubly damned. Molestation was never discussed, and even if it was, I doubt I would have come forward then. My immediate family was attending a different church, but 3 of my 4 abusers were still on the lay staff of the original church. By my tweens I lived in constant fear of being found out. I thought it was my fault.

    The abuse stopped when I chose to leave home and attend Oneida Baptist Institute. As wonderful and life changing (and literally life saving) as OBI was, I didn’t find much spiritual healing there. Removed from the abusive environment, I suppressed the memories hard, and refused to contemplate them for years. Instead, I took the advice of President Moore, decided who I wanted to be, and told the world how they were going to see me. In time, I became a person I liked.

    Fast forward to my late-20s. I returned to OBI as a faculty member. Memories of abuse were beginning to re-surface and haunt me, in the very place I had sought and found refuge from them. For a period I was actually afraid that I was literally possessed. I was trying to maintain the daily calling of being a mentor to children, and yet was falling apart inside. One evening I had gone to the school chapel to have some privacy and pray, and Mike Spencer found me there. I was crying so hard that I didn’t know he was there until he put his arms around me. It is the first time in my life that I can remember where I was hugged by a man and didn’t feel threatened. I was 27. Mike sat there and listened to me and let me cry, and scream and say some rather foul things to and at God, and all he did was cry with and for me. We talked often after that, and it was a major point in a healing that is far from done. I only taught at OBI for a year and a half, but it was and still is a vital part of my life.

    I did report the abuse eventually, unfortunately after it was too late to take any legal action. I found out that one of my abusers was working in residence at a popular church camp and in daily contact with children and teens. I notified the home church, never had a response. I notified the camp, and only got a response when I sent a notification to the Baptist State Convention and CC’d the camp. I spoke personally with the camp director, who was polite, but ultimately dismissive. Nothing ever came of it, and the abuser worked at the camp until he died, and has since been honored there. I feel sick wondering if he ever preyed on children at the camp, and wondering if I could have prevented it if I had only spoken up sooner, or been more persuasive.

    2 & 3. In my early 30s, my wife and I felt a calling to use our musical talents in ministry, and after training were ordained in the lay ministry of a Presbyterian mission. We headed up the worship team for 2 years, and felt (me for the first time) like we were in the very center of God’s will.

    My wife was raped by our senior pastor, who I considered a spiritual mentor. I was counseling with him, and sharing difficulties we were having in our marriage, and seeking advice and prayer to strengthen the relationship between my wife and I. The pastor used the information I gave him to make my wife feel vulnerable and isolated, then took advantage of her loneliness. At one point he told her that some marriages were better ended, and she could still serve in his church even if she was divorced.

    She resigned her position immediately, but it took 6 months for her to tell me. We reported it to the presbytery immediately, and got a quick response. The pastor was suspended, and there was an inquiry. We were told that the church would stand by us and help us get through this ordeal, including getting us “all the counseling (we) would need”. Instead, we were kept constantly in the dark, the pastor was put on ‘probation’, and we never had the opportunity to face the pastor or confront him as victims of his sin. He is currently pastoring another church in a different state. We WERE given the opportunity to go to counseling, all 3 sessions worth. After the 3rd session the head of the committee that heard the case suggested that my health insurance might pick up the tab for further sessions.

    4 & 5. After that, I renounced my ordination, removed myself from ministry, and from the church. Instead, I spend my Sundays working around the house or taking long rides on my motorcycle, enjoying the sights. While I’ve given up on the Protestant church, I will occasionally attend mass, and celebrate Passover every year with Jewish friends. In an interesting twist, church ritual is one of the few religious practices in which I actually find a degree of comfort. My personal prayer life is active, but full of anguish, guilt, abandonment and emptiness. After so much of this, I get angry with God, reject him, and go my own way. Not too much time passes before, like a dog to his vomit, I crawl back pleading for forgiveness, hoping to feel something, ANYthing that is like the joy I hear other believers seem to feel. Sometimes, I wonder why I still bother.

    I write this (and I apologize for the length, thanks for sticking with me) to give you a feel for the often ignored side of ecclesiastical abuse – that of the victim. I have been on this hellish journey for more than 35 years, and I see no end in sight.

    The church should absolutely work hand-in-hand with secular legal authorities to investigate and punish these offenders. The church should be LEADING the effort to remove these cancers from the body of Christ. What I see, however, that the church places more effort and energy on rehabilitating the predators, and no time restoring those who daily live with the consequences of the church’s inaction.

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  43. I agree. I’d forgive a bishop one iteration of sending a perv to therapy, and then finding out that the guy had reoffended. When that same guy is sent to yet another parish, and other men who turn out to have the same problem are treated in the way that didn’t work for the first one, the bishop is negligent.

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  44. Sometimes the police were involved; sometimes the victims parents didn’t want their kids to have to testify. Sometimes the police and DAs didn’t want to prosecute because they thought the Church would handle the perverts properly.

    The saddest thing about the recent stories is that they concern old cases, and they are being reported mainly from the plaintiffs’ lawyers point of view – trying to nail Pope Benedict to the wall, when he has shown a better learning curve than most of his colleagues, and has actually been trying to fix the organization. He’s made his mistakes; but he seems to have gotten a clue and started working to fix things in about 2001.

    Now, he should have used Holy Week to talk about it, to pray for the victims, to apologize, instead of beign defensive.

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  45. I think the church seeing themselves and having been put in the position of liability by governments for the personal actions of their priests. Certainly the way to handle this would have been to immediately dismiss those priests who were found to be guilty and openly do so. By protecting their priests and try to hide their actions they moved they have effect joined hands with their priests and made themselves culpable for the priests actions. This no different than a corporation firing a person who is sexually abused by their coworker or manager. At that point the corporation has as much or more liability as the perpetrator. How do they fix it? First they need to do what they should have done in the first place. That’s where you start. Second, they need to deeply consider allowing their priests to marry at this point. Forbidding someone to marry is contrary to the Father’s desire. That’s why Paul called forbidding to marry a doctrine of demons. I know, I know. A priest can marry if he wants to. He just can keep being a priest. That would probably solve more than half the problems. At least. Thirdly, they will just have to buck up, pay the piper and realize they will lose some membership.

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  46. Pingback: On Frozen Blog › Ovi/Sidney Rivarly Reaches Facebook | facebook

  50. I’ve thought long and hard and deleted several almost-posts. A few things. No particular order.

    –Just because “the other guy does it” absolves nothing.

    –I don’t think it’s wisdom to through the righteous into the fire with the wicked.

    –I do think it’s wisdom root out unrepentant and/or wolves hiding in the sheep–because if Satan himself can pull off an ‘angel of light’ mask, so can humans.

    –While my affections for the RCC are growing (story for another day), I think there are still some hitches I’m having to work through. I don’t know if they have the rep because they’ve been around longer, or because they were the major player earlier on, or what, but it doesn’t go away in one night.

    –There is nothing colder and crueler than church politics–Protestant or Catholic. It is the darkest thing in the world.

    –My heart breaks for everyone caught up in this, for every innocent and everyone caught in the wake. I have nothing but rage for the guilty.

    –Every vile thing done in the name of Christ has no business in his presence.

    I guess that’s all. G’night.

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  51. I think the site software for this site eats links places inside of angle brackets.

    I’ll put a link to this site after this sentence.

    If it’s not there it will never show. That may be what happened to your links. If so just post them without the brackets. As in:

    internetmonk.com

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  52. I think the Catholic Church is facing a difficult paradox- by its own nature, it is a slow, ponderous moving thing, which has been a tremendous blessing at times both to it, and to the world around it- rapid changes can obliterate true but fragile graces, and the slowness and ponderousness of the Catholic Church has protected a lot which might easily be lost to modernity. However, modernity- modern people- when faced with the level of evil which went on within the Catholic Church, want and demand immediate action. I don’t think this demand is irrational or comes from a bad place- but it seems an impossible one for the Catholic Church, in its incarnation, to meet.

    My heart is sympathatic to Patrick’s plea that those of us who are not Catholic be mindful and respectful of the conversations and difficult examinations taking place within the Catholic Family. I admire the Church and I think it’s been a net positive thing in the world to have such a large and ridiculous arc of humanity, trundling in it’s berth the range of human experience and reaction to divinity, and I hope that it is able to do the hard reconstructive work of facing this internal demon honestly, and beginning to repent and heal.

    But the Catholic Church is also in the world, and needs to be accountable to the world to which it seeks to be a lamp and a leader. If the Catholic Church as a whole intends to maintain any kind of moral authority, it needs to prove to the world that it will be accountable to what it has allowed to happen as a corporeal entity to the most vulnerable people entrusted to its care.

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  53. Just a month ago, the presenter at our Boundaries Workshop (sounds similar to projects mentioned in other comments) said, “Statistically, it is likely that there are at least one or two sexual predators here at this workshop. Nothing we say here today will change your mind or behavior. But I have to say this: if you continue to violate sexual ethical boundaries you will get caught and you cannot rely on us to protect you. We will remove you from the ministry, as far as it is in our power to do so. Our first concern is not for you: it is for those whom we serve and the Christ in whose name we serve.”

    The audience applauded.

    What I liked about that very blunt statement is that it put the focus back where it should be. We pay attention to the church’s mission of service and the ones we serve. Confession and repentance may still be our values, but they involve deep transformation–and that may best happen outside of ministry. Preserving our church is not our number one goal. People are human, but we expect you to strive to be better and not simply coast on your humanity. Do not undermine our mission of service. Do not destroy the souls to whom you are sent to bring good news.

    Mentioned nowhere in that little list are apostasy, catholicism, celibacy, fundamentalism, marriage, evangelicalism, homosexuality, pedophilia, liberalism, or any of the myriad of other “causes” that are being flung about. The issues are much more basic: the nature of the people we serve, the nature of the call to service, and the nature of true repentance when trust is violated. That’s why the topic of abuse is so hard. It exposes not the little flaws, but the big flaws we all try to cover up.

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  54. Here is a link to an essay by a Lutheran theologian that is supportive of the Pope and puts things into perspective with some history and it’s present bearing on the entire church both Catholic & Protestant. It’s well worth the read, IMO. http://www.logia.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121&catid=39:web-forum&Itemid=18 Here is the opening paragraph:

    “The secular press has had it in for Joseph Ratzinger for going on three decades. Before his election as Pope in the spring of 2005, he was routinely derided in his homeland as the Panzerkardinal (“tank cardinal”) and caricatured in North America as the “Enforcer” or even the “Rottweiler.” The roots of this negative reputation stretch back at least as far as the book-length interview he granted to the Italian journalist Vittorio Messori that catapulted him to global fame when published as The Ratzinger Report in 1985. Prior to that juncture, as a heavyweight German academic who had leapfrogged over a major episcopal see (Munich-Freising) to become a leading official in the Roman curia (as cardinal prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) under the still new John Paul II, Ratzinger’s was hardly a household name.”

    Also, here is quote that I think helps better put the situation into perspective:

    “To be connected with the church is to be associated with scoundrels, warmongers, fakes, child-molesters, murderers, adulterers and hypocrites of every description.

    It also, at the same time, identifies you with saints and the finest persons of heroic soul of every time, country, race, and gender.

    To be a member of the church is to carry the mantle of both the worst sin and the finest heroism of soul because the church always looks exactly as it looked at the original crucifixion, God hung among thieves.”

    — Fr. Ronald Rolheiser, O.M.I., “The Holy Longing”

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  55. I don’t listen to EWTN. I got enough of ‘churchianity’ as a Baptist, and then some more as an Episcopalian. However, they are on to something with their attitude toward the Marxist media. It is easy enough to register how much the media distort when we see the untrue things people say, people who listen to the legacy media. The Pope was NOT supervising paederast priests. As a Bishop, he referred a guy for treatment and moved him out of parish ministry. Later, when Ratzinger was no longer Bishop, the man was quietly returned to a parish, but that was not Ratzinger’s doing. In the Curia, he was informed of some obscure goings on in America, a memo among thousands of memos.

    There were priests accused of paederasty or ephebophilia forty years ago, when the modern, progressive thing to do was treatment. Assuming that a Bishop himself is straight, the matter, especially for a middle-aged or later, celibate man, is distasteful. A neat fix, like a time in a hospital to ‘cure’ the guy, is where I’d go, and I am married, fairly comfortable with the topic of sexuality.

    The only jury duty I ever truly wanted to avoid was a trial of a paederasty case. A friend who is a judge worked as a visiting judge in a jurisdiction with an over load of cases. The judges passed on to her their most distasteful files. Guess what! Most of them were child sexual abuse cases. Yeah, sure they (Both the Bishops and the judges)had a duty, a very unpleasant one, and they took an easy out, sometimes. However, it was the same easy out most people were taking. If the Bishops had raised a big stink, they’d have been attacked as bigoted homophobes. No, the term had not been invented, but the idea was out there, as I well remember.

    However, back to the media, and the Leftist denunciations of the Church. There is a pattern here, found in most of the Left’s attacks: There is some poor helpless prole; there is corruption in high places; there is always ‘hypocrisy’ . There is the usual demand that the Church or a business live up to standards in which the attacker does not even believe. In the ephebophilia cases, there is a careful effort to create a boundary between ephebophila and homosexuality, as if every literate man in the country had not sees the deep-discounted personal adds scrawled on bathroom walls, describing the youthfulness of of the writer. Perhaps EWTN ought to defend someone else in the Left’s crosshairs, rather than themselves, and leave that defense to those of us not under the gun, this time. Nevertheless, they are right

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  57. And Patrick to add one last thing from my side to the “enough said” statement;

    One look through your blog and it does not take long to see women in nothing but G-strings, you using terminology like ‘hoes’ and a much used acromyn WT_? used as the Title of a number of your posts………which is vile, sinful and worldly.

    You can talk all day and all night about me and my views but it is clear you need to clean up your act., yea even perhaps be regenerated.

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  58. Martha, thank you so much for this. I read all the letters and was impressed with the thoroughness and humility so eloquently expressed.
    By the way, there are many frequent posters on this site I would love to meet face to face, but you are at the top of my list! (Of course there are a few I’d prefer to avoid; I’ve already met too many of their clones.)

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  60. Of COURSE I disagree with your comment, Matthew. I would think that naming your bigotry would’ve carried with it my blanket objection on your whole “Catholics R MINDLESS SHEEPE!!1” charge – guess you’re not reading me right.

    No, in fact, Catholics everywhere, even part-timers, are watching the scandal closely. Many Catholics are part-timers in some measure BECAUSE of the scandal. And as for Catholics who can’t understand or won’t comply with the Church’s teaching (to mindlessly imbibe our magic wine and tasty crackers at least once a WEEK instead of twice a year), Lord have mercy. And He does.

    Seriously though, you have no idea what you’re talking about re: Catholic life.

    At all.

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  61. It is not blood people are screaming for but rather, justice. A crime is a crime. You can be forgiven but you must give to Caesar what is Caesar’s. Sex scandals amongst ministers of other denominations do happen but are they criminal? Sex with children is illegal.

    Oh and let us not forget that RCs claim to be the true church with direct access to God through the sacraments. So much more is expected of you since the claim is there. Either a special anointing, blessing or whatever you want to call it, is available through the true church or it is not. So far, since you have pointed the finger towards ministers in other denominations, I would say you admit there is no special anointing, blessing or whatever else you choose to call it, through your true church sacraments.

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  62. @Patrick

    You might not think they are but you agree with my comment; “I am sure – many of those who frequent your churches, particularly this past Sunday, are probably not thinking to much about it at all – but rather thinking that because they went to church at Easter Time, lit a candle and gave some money they are now ‘absolved’ of their sinful lives…atleast til another calender event roles around. “…Right?

    @Mike

    In answer;

    1. The sexual sin committed in the Protestant camp is just as heinous…obviously. It should be dealt with the same way – jail time for the offender and compo for the victim(s). The one thing Protestants dont have is ONE governing body like the RCC does in the Vatican.

    2. I dont really. Thoughg I do believe that the framework of the RCC “allows” this to fester. I suspect inside the Vatican there are some dark dark places….. The issue of celibacy, which is pagan anyhow, is of some concern, though not fully to blame – it does deserve much attention…

    3. I see what you mean – despite my frank and contrasting statements made on this [and other] threads regarding the RCC, I do infact think a loving discussion with differing camps is fitting and biblical. However, a loving discussion does not tolerate ALL things. As a Christian [and I do not believe those who fully engage in, practice and endorse the entire RCC teachings to be such] I am of the conviction that if this was an issue in the Protestant camp to the same measure it is in the RCC it would have been dealt with far quicker, better and far far more biblically.

    Why? Again, we dont have an “infalliable” man who has “oversees” things…….

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  63. Matthew, I hoped you might comment, and I anticipated the basic tenor of your response. My questions to you would be: (1) What about the abuse and sexual sin that takes place in good Protestant churches? I know it’s less documented but I have an idea that the percentages are probably about the same. (2) Do you think that there is something specific to Roman Catholic doctrine that exacerbates this problem? (3) Given the fact that a lot of secular people couldn’t tell the difference between a Roman Catholic and a Reformed Baptist, don’t you think it would be good for us and helpful for our witness to learn to talk about this issue as people who are sympathetic to problems of sin and human brokenness rather than people who just use the situation to call the RC church apostate?

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  65. The trouble is I think we’re into the “circling the wagons” mode now, and that’s no good. It’s the same impulse back when the first trickles of this scandal were coming out: protect the institution and the innocent members. It’s the same attitude back when these individuals in the 50s, 60s and 70s were being investigated: keep it quiet because the scandal will cause destruction.

    People are feeling defensive because they feel that they are being blamed unfairly for things they did not know, or could not do anything about, or that advantage is being taken: see, this proves that Catholics aren’t Christians! or that Christianity is false! or that religious belief makes one evil!

    It’s an understandable impulse, but we have to avoid it, because we’ll get bogged down in defending institutional principles and not reforming what needs reforming and defending the Faith and not the politics and bureaucracy.

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  66. Thanks Patrick.

    As for my “little Calvinist sect” – well I am in good company there sir.

    Thats a huge statement you make there mate; “In every house and in every parish and seminary from Australia to Arkansas are families wondering about their priests and priests wondering about each other, praying for guidance, and working for reform.”

    I am sure – many of those who frequent your churches, particularly this past Sunday, are probably not thinking to much about it at all – but rather thinking that because they went to church at Easter Time, lit a candle and gave some money they are now ‘absolved’ of thier sinful lives…ateast til another calender event roles around.

    Have a great week Pat – and think about how absurd all this really is.

    The 5 Solas would do you good 😉

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  67. Your bigotry towards Catholics is as outlandish as it is insipid.

    If it were YOUR little Calvinist sect that was being outed in scandal, you and all yours would be engrossed in the issue, trying to make sense of it, and regarding the measure of your complicity in it all.

    We are doing just that. In every house and in every parish and seminary from Australia to Arkansas are families wondering about their priests and priests wondering about each other, praying for guidance, and working for reform.

    You don’t see that, because you aren’t a Catholic, and because you’re an anti-Catholic.

    And the Pope certainly didn’t gloss the issue at his Easter message; you simply don’t understand our church, and have a spiteful, supercilious attitude to match your ignorance. Fix that.

    “Your pope is not infalliable, he is a sinful man who does nothing about the molestation and rape that he oversees.”

    Grow up, Matthew. Your invective is embarrassing you. If you want to help our sinners and their victims, put this kind of crap away and man up and come out and help us. The last thing anyone needs is this type of angry garbage.

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  68. Christine writes, “The priests, the Pope, they’re all supposed to be following Christ, just like the rest of us. If they don’t, that’s a judgment on them, not on the Church – because they’re not the Church!”

    Excellent, Christine! I agree.

    And I also agree with writers above who say that celibacy is NOT the problem. BUT….I still think priests should be allowed to marry. Let’s say we have 1000 celibate men in the US wanting to become priests. Now let’s say the Roman Catholic church allows married men to become priests. They don’t get paid much and many men who are married or want to marry may still feel that they cannot become a priest for that reason and other reasons. But let’s say 1000 married guys want to become priests. So now we have 2000 new priests instead of 1000. If both the celibate and the married men abuse children at the same rate, let’s just say 2%, then 2% of 2000 is 40 men. That still leaves 1960 non-abusing priests whereas with only celibate priests, we would have only 980 non-abusing priests. So, THAT is why I say let priests marry. It won’t stop abuse, but it will give us more priests overall that do not abuse. (By the way, I have no ideas whatsoever on the number of priests we have each year in the US. I didn’t bother to look it up. I was just using these figures to make a point.)

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  69. I think that that the Catholic Church handled the problems in the past more like a bureacracy than as a shepherd tending his flock. The very size almost makes it necessary. Most or all large organizations would behave the same way.

    I think that the idea of treatment was used, and seemed appropriate. I will not critize someone for acting on the best knowledge of the time, (which now has proven to be wrong.) Another example of this sort of thing is toxic waste. Years ago, burial was the state of the art method, now we know that it just produces Superfund sites.

    If celibacy were the cause, then there should be no Protestant pastors, or school teachers abusing children. Both groups have their own problems. Just not as visible. Parents can’t sue public schools because they are governmental organizations.

    I am bothered by the fact that a lot of very old cases are now coming out. There is always the possibility of innocent priests being accused when they cannot defend themselves. False accusations will always be around. Look at Cardinal Bernadine.

    Google Christa Brown, Patty Bonds and Baptistpreditors for examples from the evangelical side.

    I have been trained several times in two different dioceses about the prevention of abuse, and the signs to look for. I think that the Virtus program is decent, but it doesn’t touch on the main issue. I believe that one of the main causes is men who are inclined toward homosexuality and are NOT able to live celibately. That probably explains one of the bigger differences between the Catholic Church’s sexual abuse problems and many of the others. Ours tends to be men in power with young men. Many others are men in power with girls and young women.

    Can we endure? Yes and probably the Church will be healthier afterwards. But, it would be nice if the media got their facts right.

    Is this one indication that Christ might be planning on returning soon? Some of my good and holy friends think so.

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  70. I think the church leaders need to take it seriously. Issue statements of the gravity of the crimes. And deal swiftly, decisively, and publicly with those who have been guilty of the abuse. As you mentioned, the issue has become a matter of public concern, so dealing openly and not behind closed doors seems to be essential at this point.

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  71. Patrick,

    Your first question makes no sense to me at all……

    How do you know “a billion Catholics are today contemplating our individual and collective sins”?

    So when the Pope GLOSSED over it at his easter message – and the “pilgrims” did the same, you think my statement is farfetched?

    You should be disgusted that for ‘who knows how long’ this has been going on and NOTHING has been done – oh but they’ll move a child molesting priest to another parish down the road though wont they….

    Your pope is not infalliable, he is a sinful man who does nothing about the molestation and rape that he oversees.

    Glossed over buddy….

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  72. Seems to me that what this whole crisis shows is that, contrary to what those who dislike the Catholic religion might want to believe, most Catholics really DO follow Jesus Christ, and not the Pope or their priests. Because if we were only Catholics because of the Pope and the priests, the Catholic faith WOULD be dead. But it’s thriving, and that’s because Christ is the true head of the Church, and most Catholics understand that. The priests, the Pope, they’re all supposed to be following Christ, just like the rest of us. If they don’t, that’s a judgment on them, not on the Church – because they’re not the Church!

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  73. This is a horrible situation that I can hardlly bear to talk about. In brief: What is the church doing about abuse now? They are trying to prevent it from happening through training, fingerprinting, background checks, and legal action.

    I teach Eucharistic prep to young children in our parish who are preparing for their first communion. Before I could begin volunteering, I was required, as is every single adult in the parish who comes in contact with juveniles, to undergo training specifically to teach me to detect and report abuse or suspicion of abuse. Many, many dioceses around the country are requiring every adult volunteer, employee, etc. to undergo this training.

    Rather than add a link that needs moderated, just go google “virtus training” to find out more.

    The training consists of a couple hours of initial group training and discussion and then followup online training that I think lasts more than a year. I can tell you that the group training does not gloss over the situation. It is very frank, and mine included video interviews with victims, their families, and a couple of perpetrators. It was very tough to watch. I was taught how to detect potential abuse and how to report it. Some examples: adults who pay too much attention to children, give them gifts, isolate them from others, or encourage them to break the rules.

    Anyone who goes through the training becomes certified and is then legally required to report any suspected abuse to the police–not to the pastor or principal or anyone else associated with the parish. If Ihe abuse or suspected abuse is not reported, the individual could be prosecuted for not coming forward.

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  74. There is ample anecdotal evidence that many Catholic seminaries have underground homosexual cultures, and that homosexuals are overrepresented among priests. It seems that the celibacy requirement attracts Catholic faithful with homosexual inclinations, since celibacy precludes ANY sex. When they fall, they tend to fall with the most impressionable folks available: the kids. I believe (correct me if I’m wrong) that a majority of the victims were boys, i.e. the perpetrators were homosexual.
    To that extent, the celibacy requirement would seem to contribute, no?

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  75. You’d really rather God not love us, huh? A billion Catholics are today contemplating our individual and collective sins, and you call it a “gloss” and declare us “apart from the bride of Christ”.

    What is your deal, dude?

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  76. This entire post is the truth. Thanks for your grace and insight, Peggy. You and all who can forgive, pray for the rest of us who need forgiveness!

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  77. “Speaking for myself, it was difficult but I got over it. This time around, I don’t think the same rationale I used last time for remaining Catholic is going to hold. It’s back to the drawing board. ”

    What rationale was that, Moonshadow?

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  79. The media doesn’t know the difference between protestant sects – only the most sensational Protestant monsters get press, because to us and to the secular world, there evidently is only the Catholic Church and “Christians”.

    It’s hard to sell a big expose on the scandals of the Church of God in Christ or the Aquarians if nobody knows who the hell they are. Everybody knows the Catholics though. We’re the gays with the funny hats!

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  80. I disagree that having married priests will help the situation. Celibacy is the jam, according to Jesus. He who can accept this, let him accept this.

    The fact that we have a bunch of non-believing predators creeping around our Rectories is evidence of a completely different type of problem than one of mere regulations – lets all join hands and agree that our SPIRITUAL FORMATION in the Catholic Church tends to suck, and a lot of the guys who become priests are rather unimpressive manchildren who enter and proceed with less-than-Pauline zeal for the Gospel. When it turns out that they destroy children or break their vows of chastity, we have to conclude that they’ve abandoned their prayers and act accordingly.

    Throw ’em out, send ’em to jail, and practice our charity on them and on the victims, and wait on God’s renewal in the next generation. If He doesn’t fix the problem, it can’t be fixed.

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  81. “You see, boys and girls, this is what happens when you have people pretending to be Christians while they ignore what the Bible teaches.”

    Your horns are showing.

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  82. I stand in awe that many of the ‘pilgrims’ of the RCC can be as quick to gloss over the disgusting sins of the preists as the papacy can…..

    A testimony, to many, that the RCC is not apart of the bride of Christ.

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  83. A fine quote from Peggy Noonan’s article in WSJ:

    There are three great groups of victims in this story. The first and most obvious, the children who were abused, who trusted, were preyed upon and bear the burden through life. The second group is the good priests and good nuns, the great leaders of the church in the day to day, who save the poor, teach the immigrant, and, literally, save lives. They have been stigmatized when they deserve to be lionized. And the third group is the Catholics in the pews—the heroic Catholics of America and now Europe, the hardy souls who in spite of what has been done to their church are still there, still making parish life possible, who hold high the flag, their faith unshaken. No one thanks those Catholics, sees their heroism, respects their patience and fidelity. The world thinks they’re stupid. They are not stupid, and with their prayers they keep the world going, and the old church too.

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  84. I believe where ever there are children, you will have pedophiles and people willing to cover it up. I saw this in my own SBC church growing up. I have also seen this problem in the high school I attended as a student and ALL the high schools I worked in as a teacher. Time and time again I was witness to the powers that be covering it up.
    I myself feel the guilt of not having called the police myself.

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  85. The first step to forgivenss and healing is the admission of sin, in this case the sin of covering up the abuse.

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  86. Do you doubt the sincerity of thebelievers in the pews?? I don’t. This anti-Catholic prejudice plays into the Churhc’s hands whne they claim they are being attacked by the press.

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  87. How much of this is pride? It seems that most times there are cover-ups, that’s the root cause. The highest priority becomes protect my name, protect the glory of our institution. Truth, integrity, and repentance all end up in taking a back seat.

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  88. What Joe Blackmon said above. I’d also point out that in all the pious statements above I see very little if nothing about the children who were the victims. It is of the spirit of Satan to desire to harm innocence.

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  89. All particular human sins have been around since the Fall, but I do think that ages tend toward some sins more than others. There’s a lot less slavery around today, for example — there is still too much, in many forms, some of which I have seen personally, but still, it’s not our pet sin. Sexual sins may be, though certainly not the only ones. And I wonder why that would be the case.

    My instinct is that it has something to do with the separating of procreation and pleasure that took place within Christianity in 1930, with the condoning of artificial methods of birth control within marriage. it was the Anglican church, I believe, but all other churches got on board pretty quickly. With medical means of effective birth control available, sex becomes pleasure only. What principle can the church offer to distinguish between one pleasure and another, then, if sacramental openness to procreation is removed? If one man finds making love to his wife pleasurable and the other finds bestiality or pederasty pleasurable, on what grounds do we distinguish? One might offer that one’s pleasure mustn’t rob another person of his rights, and that is a good principle, but it obviously hasn’t protected us against the rash of sexual sins today.

    Priests come from the same culture the rest of us do and are infected with the same problems and spurious self-justifications the rest of us are. From the divorce of procreation and pleasure have come the growth of abortion, out-of-wedlock sex and childbirth, divorce, and sexual perversion of all sorts. We none of us really understand or accept what sex is meant to be in God’s kingdom. Sadly, I think that in some ways the Catholic church has gotten closer to holding to a biblical view of sex than most other denominations. Perhaps that’s why Satan has attacked them so strongly — not that he’s not happily busy in other places, too.

    Anyway, I acknowledge that a big part of the problem is accountability, not just sexual self-control. But it is intriguing (I think) to consider why simony and barratry, once such popular sins within the church, can’t even be defined by most people nowadays, and the hot topic is sexual abuse. I don’t mean, however, to treat the subject lightly or just as fodder for historical speculation. It is desperately important. And may God have mercy on our souls.

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  90. I’m a member of a Catholic parish (who doesn’t listen to EWTN btw), and I occasionally attend services at another nearby parish as well.

    > Is it being discussed? Is your priest speaking or writing publicly about it? Is your church community going the extra mile to model integrity in this area and protect children?

    No, not really. There may be a letter or two from the Archbishop, but that was it. When there was a report from the archdiocese about a suspected child molestation case by a priest, my parish priest expressed anger at the perpetrator but that was it. My parish priest doesn’t get much time with kids (without other adults around) so IMO the risk is pretty low, maybe that’s why the subject isn’t brought up. My experience with the church is that it doesn’t usually react to news out there.

    I’ve gotten a few emails from friends asking me to pray for the Pope against the “media attacks”, but these are from individuals. I agree with “David L’s comment about that “It seems to be a major human failing to shoot the messenger when the message attacks an institution that you have a strong affinity to.”. But I also want to add that the RCC seems to be more vulnerable to these human failings because the priest is in charge (within a parish) and there needs to be some mechanism to hold him accountable, like in some Protestant churches, the elders can oust the pastor or something, at least report to higher authority.

    my 2 cents.

    Dave

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  91. It’s sin and requires repentance top to bottom. Since there are laws regarding this, those need to be followed.

    How come the media doesn’t report on anything good coming from the RCC? Never mind I think we can figure that one out.

    I got saved through the RCC. Don’t know if they’ll ever get past all this, but a humble and broken heart is the first step for any of us.

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  92. “Former Hitler Youth” is a red herring. So is my mother-in-law.

    The Hitler Youth was only voluntary in a very limited sense. If you didn’t join then you got to spend your weekends in special youth camps where they tried to teach you why you should join the HY and get to spend your weekends living at home. If the HY was operating where you lived, you were basically going to join unless you and/or your parents had a really strong protest mentality. And that could lead to you or your parents vanishing in the night. Which also happened to friends of my mother-in-law who were too vocal with their opinions. (Age about 16 and older.) Most were never seen again and assumed killed by the special police. And this was BEFORE the war started.

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  93. For clarification, the specific member of the Obama administration member singled out on EWTN radio as “anti-catholic” is Dawn Johnsen, due largely to her association with Lawrence Lader and the NARAL’s attempt to remove the Catholic church’s tax-exempt status in the 80’s. Lader’s statement that the RC is the “real enemy” has been associated with Johnsen, which upon further research appears spurious.

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  94. First this happens because these men are human, the RCC is a BIG church with lots of members and more publicity, when your dealing with sinful people no matter who they the numbers will catch up with you. The RCC has certainly mis-handled this whole situation, but more than that I think this comes from a long held reverence for those who choose to serve. So many set them on pedestals and when your hero’s stumble you look the other way, because to not do so would cause so much heartache for others.

    How quickly we forget that we are *all* sinners and that no one man is better than the next, I respect men who choose to serve, but I remain watchful and critical like the Bereans. Also we have generated a Christian culture where criticizing is ‘Gossip’, no matter how it’s done, anytime you point out the obvious there’s someone who criticizes you for being critical!. We need to be careful what we say and how we say it, but we should not turn away from the truth.

    I also agree with others that if a church does not have safeguards in place for stuff like this, then either speak up or move on, their just courting with disaster.

    -Paul-

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  95. I listen to EWTN sometimes throughout the day, and the “party line” seems to be “Look at how the media is attacking the Pope and the Church! Those jerks!” That just seems… lame to me and smacks of the silliness you get from hyper-conservative political talk shows on AM radio. While I think putting the blame on B16 is scapegoating at best, I do think the scope of the scandals requires him to step up to the plate in terms of addressing the issue directly and taking some sort of responsibility. Ultimately, the buck does have to stop somewhere.

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  96. A Christian’s integrity is tied to his use of sex. If he cannot contain his sexuality within the boundaries prescribed by God, then his other ministery efforts are tainted.

    Both Roman Catholic and Protestant churches lose integrity when those who proclaim the faith live sexually loose lives.

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  97. I hope they get approved. I heard similar statements on EWTN recently, and found myself wanting to see the actual statistical data. While the bit with the public school teachers has a ring of truth, I’d have thought that there would be more publicity regarding the Protestant numbers. That is, the media tends to be biased against fundamentalist and evangelical protestantism as much as it is against the RCC.

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  98. The difference being that male priesthood and the sinfulness of homosexual behavior are dogmas/doctrines of the Church whereas a celibate priesthood is merely a discipline. That is, exceptions can be made and the Pope/Magisterium can lift the requirement if they so choose. In fact, historically, there have been occasional exceptions made in the cases of some Orthodox and Anglican priests who convert to Catholicism. In fact, with the Pope’s new deal to create Anglican Rite ordinariates includes a provision to allow married Anglican clergy to transfer ordination on case-by-case basis. All that is to say that while B16 and JP2 both said they would not lift the discipline of celibacy in the priesthood, it could one day be lifted without violating the doctrines and dogmas of the Church.

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  99. Richard, not to poke out the eyes of our Episcopalian brethren (because the dear Lord knows, we cannot look anywhere else but to our own failings), I would just recommend to you the current case of Bishop Charles Bennison and his brother and the scandal there:

    http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=9347

    The attitude there is the problem, not whether clergy can or cannot be married – “Bennison did what was expected of him, based on his knowledge of sexual abuse in the 70’s.”

    We all know now that this is not enough, but yes – back in the 70s, the notion was forgiveness, not punitive actions, and that therapy to cure the sickness rather than old-fashioned condemnation of sin would be the solution.

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  100. And the morning drive-time jocks are having a field day. With every mention of “Pope Benedict, Former Hitler Youth” and appending “-pedophile” to every church title: “Father-pedophile, Bishop-pedophile, Cardinal-pedophile, etc”.

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  101. “what is happening on the ground, in your local parish with regard to this issue.”

    Link to diocescan website where the Bishop’s Pastoral Letter is up:

    http://www.waterfordlismore.com/

    Our Bishop has also had the letter published in the local papers. Policies put into place for schools, parishes, etc. over the past few years. Local Pastoral Councils set up and in charge of implementing these (the vice-principal of the school where I work is on one of these and she’s involved).

    Link to text of such:

    Click to access updated_safeguarding2009.pdf

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  102. Argh.

    Okay, Irish and Catholic here.

    Very quick ignorant personal summation of the matter: this goes back a long way, is intertwined with history and culture, and accusations involve not merely sexual but physical and emotional cruelty as well (which all tends to get balled up into ‘abuse’ means ‘sexual abuse’ in the popular mind).

    It’s complicated, it’s long-standing, and yes,it’s a crying scandal. It has to be addressed. Now, without wanting to go into denial, are there those who are happy to use this disgrace to advance their own agenda? Yes. And they even have good impulses, not just wanting to push selfish attempts to have sin not called sin. On the other hand, are there ambulance-chasers and those using any stick to beat the Church? Yes as well.

    The whole thing about celibacy is a red herring: we’ve had at least one case of a coach for the national body governing swimming convicted of abusing a girl under his care, and y’know, athletics organisations don’t require celibacy of their employees.

    I don’t want to talk about this (which is why discussion is so vitally necessary); I can’t talk about it.

    The Church in Ireland needs to overhaul itself. But so does Irish society. And replacing the oppression of the past with a new cultural orthodoxy of ‘let’s be modern progressives’ isn’t going to make things magically better.

    Personal knowledge: can’t say for sure. One case of an ex-nun accused of involvement in abuse of a girl which, when I read the first story, immediately made me go “No, that’s not true” because I knew the woman, had been taught by her, and if it had been an accusation of “she hit me” I’d have believed it (she was bad-tempered and shouldn’t have been teaching children) but as ‘she assisted in my rape by holding me down” I did not believe. Turned out to be false accusation.

    One case of – I think, going on something my parents said – a priest abusing one or more boys in his care. About thirty years back, our family occasionally gave lodgings for a night or two to boys on cycling trips with a priest – it was all a charity thing. I’m fuzzy on the details because I was too young and uninterested to find out more. They were, I think, boys from a children’s home and this particular priest used to bring one or more on cycling trips as a holiday, and they’d stay in volunteer’s homes. I want to insist that the priest didn’t stay with us, just the boy.

    Years later, my parents heard that he’d been accused – whether it was true or not, I can’t tell you – of abusing those boys on those trips. Did we have any idea this was happening, if it was happening? No. Did the kids ever say anything? Not to us. Was it true or not? I don’t know. All I can say is that I didn’t like the man; he gave me bad vibes (man).

    But it was literally unthinkable that a priest or nun should do such a thing. Imagine if someone brought out a book claiming that Abraham Lincoln was a rapist or that George Washington had tortured captured soldiers to death. How many Americans could even entertain the notion as a hypothesis of such a thing?

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  103. I personally do not think the RCC is unique here. Just that they are a very big world wide target. And to make it worse while they have a very defined, strong, and CLOSED hierarchy, they are also very decentralized by geography. Which is why the US scandals seems to be a US problem. The structure of the RCC kept the problems “local”. But it turns out that it is really world wide.

    And as an evangelical who’s bumped into the issue, it’s not an RCC problem. Or even a “church” problem. It’s a problem where ever adults interact with kids. My local public school district has about 120 schools with about 120,000 kids. There seem to be 2 or 3 arrests per year of teachers and/or principals for have sexual relations with kids. I don’t think the school system has a problem. They have a fairly stringent policy on these issues. Just that the law of averages catches up to big institutions more frequently.

    As to my own experience with my former local SBC affiliated church, it went just like the RCC situations. Shooting the messenger and discrediting them personally was way more important that addresses the facts. Many members put unity above a search for the truth. And a strong pastoral structure seemed to close ranks against anyone who might disagree with them.

    As a result of this 10 to 20 families left this church and we lost many friendships with people who refused to believe that the pastors could do any wrong.

    And a key point here is the blow up wasn’t over the actual incident. For that the person was arrested and in currently in jail. It was over how things were handled after some new details came out about who was told what when. Just like the current situation with the RCC. It basically started when it turned out one youth had complained about the molester a year before his arrest and was basically told he was wrong and to work it out. When he came forward to some friends and asked for help in reconciliation the denials started and thing when down hill from there.

    And some of the group that left this church started digging deeper into this issue and basically there’s very little difference between the RCC and all the other churches in the US in terms of pastors/priests and the stats on how many do such things to kids.

    To wrap this up. It seems to be a major human failing to shoot the messenger when the message attacks an institution that you have a strong affinity to. No matter what the facts are. And this is where the RCC needs to come clean.

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  104. I don’t get this media bashing stuff.

    I’m a serious Catholic (at Mass frequently and a pretty good lector at that :)), and, for what it’s worth, I’m convinced that without good, hard-hitting media coverage, a lot of this would never have come to light. The Boston Globe, for example, did a great service to us all about 10 years ago with its extensive reporting. Same for the NY Times now, and for a lot of smaller papers around the world. Thank God for such reporting. I want as much of this as possible to see the light of day and, like any normal person, I want everyone responsible, both for the abuse and for the cover-up, to be held accountable, i.e., go to jail if need be.

    How does such reporting make people ‘hate’ Catholics? What’s making a lot of people angry, Catholics right there among them, is the sense that the Church, even now, can’t or won’t confront this filth and deal with it once and for all. If there’s a lot of Catholic bashing as a result, well, the Church brought a lot of that on itself. The Church will survive; go read almost any honest history of the papacy to find out how low the hierarchy can go sometimes. But even in the worst of times, a Thomas a Kempsis, a St. Francis, etc., comes along. The Church is fine, but some bishops ought to get the boot. If the media identifies them, so be it. Thank God for a free press.

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  105. Not defending the RCC but most of western society was into “treatment” for most anything from the 60s to the 90s. Evidence has since shown that some people are just plain “hard to fix”. So in the past we covered it up. Then we tried to fix it. Now we’re learning that you have to expose it and keep the people segregated, maybe for life.

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  106. “My understanding is that there are no new revelations as part of this, just an attempt to associate the Pope with them.”

    Because the Pope, before he was the Pope, was in charge of such things as a Bishop in Germany and was in charge of these issues while stationed in Rome.

    To paraphrase Truman, “Where did the buck stop?”

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  107. But by keeping it quiet and local and not addressing it as a group these policies kept failing. And many Bishops had repeats. Multiple repeats. And they kept doing the same thing.

    At the end of the day the hierarchy was pretecting itself. And almost all hierarchies tend to do.

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  109. I’ve provided links but they won’t show up until the moderator approves them. Michael’s site is set up to require mod approval if a post contains external links.

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  110. I’ll make a bigger post later but it looks different mainly due to the size and hierarchy of the RCC. In the US we have 1000 people a day die from car accidents and unless it is someone famous these deaths are barely noticed outside of the immediate area where they occur. But a rare plane crash that kills 300 is a headline event and generates calls for changes to the way airlines do things every time it happens.

    Same mindset here.

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  111. Something in all of this doesn’t add up. If a priest were an alcoholic, then after treatment he would be advised NOT to enter a bar. If a priest were a gambling addict, after treatment he’d be advised not to go into casinos and would probably not be trusted with money.

    What this sounds like is a serious collapse in judgement in the Church. It doesn’t make sense to me that someone who was caught molesting children would be put back into the presence of children. There are a lot of other ministries that are removed from kids…e.g. prison ministries, army chaplains, monasteries, hopsitals, etc.

    One of the weaknesses (as well as strengths) is how slow moving the Church is. I think in this case it’s been stuck in the 19th century and it needs to move into the 20th century quickly to avoid this kind of scandal.

    As a Catholic, this is hard to bear but it does not affect the sanctity of the Church rather just the judgement of some men in the hierarchy who should be reprimanded and punished if any illegal activity was allowed or occurred. Similarly…if there was some scandal that involved the President, we don’t throw out the Constitution.

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  112. I heard an interview with a Catholic on the radio last week that mentioned several priests that fought to get pedophiles removed, but the mainstream media will never report on these heroes. I’ve seen the media pick and choose the “facts” when it comes to reporting about Christians in the last decade that always puts Christians in the worst possible light. I really don’t trust the media much anymore, especially when it comes to reporting on the Catholic church, even though I’m Protestant. I have a hunch that 10 or 20 years from now, we will find out that the Catholic church did a lot more to prevent this than many people thought. Maybe the media will then accuse them of a modern-day inquisition or witch-hunt, and show us innocent priests that were falsely accused, trying another angle to get us all to hate on the Catholic church. Look at how the media and academia have sold us the lie for decades that the Pope during WWII was in cahoots with Hitler, but now we are learning that he probably helped save over half a million lives. But in the short-term, the main-stream media gets what they want, people to hate Catholics, some will lose their faith, and the media suffers no consequences.

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  113. I agree with you, it was an inadequate and wrongheaded response–but it was a common response in the 70s and 80s even with the courts and secular insitutions. I work in child welfare, and it’s still a very common response. Not all perverts go to jail. Sometimes we are provide supervised visits to perpetrators–who are not have have not been jailed.

    My response was simply to note that the bishops were not inactive. They did something that, at the time, seemed like the right thing to do. Looking back it was stupid and they should have followed the Church’s actualy rule, which was to get rid of the perpetrator.

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  114. *It wasn’t that nothing was done (though there are surely cases where offenders were merely moved around), these priests were sent to intense counseling.*

    Ah. Yeah. Intense counseling. That’s good. Care to name one other category of violent or sexual criminal for whom we’d accept “intense counseling” as adequate?

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  115. Beginning in the 70’s, until early 80’s, I worked as a child protective services worker, part of my job being to investigate allegations of abuse and neglect. This was in an area with only a very small minority of Catholics. Alleged perpetrators included many who professed to be bible-believing Christians. I later worked for more than 20 years in public mental health; I had a fluctuating caseload of adults, also had to assist with crisis screenings and brief consultations with people requesting counseling. So, I have heard a lot of stories of very real people of all ages suffering from the fallout of exploitation, molestation, rape, incest. I’ve heard many stories of other adults- including some in the church- looking the other way, making excuses, minimizing the effects, even disbelieving in the face of overwhelming evidence. I have my own story, as does my older sister, and one of my children, involving a Southern Baptist husband/father/grandfather/great-grandfather who enjoyed sex with his wife, but also enjoyed forbidden things with little children. I’m sure he convinced himself he wasn’t doing any real harm, we wouldn’t remember it anyway. He didn’t have to worry about defending himself; we did our own personal cover-ups- we desperately needed to keep believing he was a decent, loving, Godly man worthy of our trust. I believe that experience was the root cause of my later straying completely from the faith for many years; for a long time I had thought it was because of the death of my mother from cancer when I was a child. Neither experience seemed to line up with a favorite song in my church, which has the lines “His eye is on the sparrow, and I know he watches me.” I eventually found my way back to faith, first in a little southern Baptist church, then one of those fast-growing evangelical churches with many of the excesses of the evangelical wilderness described so well by imonk, but which also had pastors who offered healing prayer and counseling and small groups, all of it effective. So I don’t blame God any more; we all fail and fall short of the glory of God. We all have weaknesses and the ability to lie, including to ourselves. Organizational structures of any kind, whether church-business-government-family that place too high a priority on maintaining the status quo and the reputation of the structure only make it easer for the strong to manipulate and exploit the weak, and to get away with it. This is true of Protestants, Catholics, Buddhists, new-agers, hippies, non-believers, Republicans, Democrats, independents. Marriage or non-marriage of priests is, I believe, not the crucial issue. There are plenty of married pedophiles, some who deliberately seek out desperate single women with children, some who bear their own children and continue to seek out other children to molest; mariage and fatherhood provide such a convenient cover for their perversions. There are female pedophiles too; I’ve met some of their victims. The worldwide Catholic church is currently dominating the headlines; it’s much harder to sue a smaller, non-denominational group that keeps morphing into different forms, it’s harder to find a lawyer to take on a case where there is only a small amount of money or resources to go after, or it’s not clear who is in charge. I’m not saying this to defend any part of the Catholic Church that needs more light on it, that needs to change, that needs to take more seriously its charge to care for the widows and orphans and the vulnerable of any kind. But, Jesus told us to judge a tree by its fruit. So, I think of the Catholic friends I have come to know in a CS Lewis group; I think of Martha from Ireland who frequently posts on this site; I think of my brother-in-law who was a monk for seven years; I think of the impact of J.R.R. Tolkien and other Catholics on CS Lewis. There is so much good fruit. Please, let the pruning be judicious and gentle and Godly. There is bad fruit on every species of Christian tree. CS Lewis said it well; don’t have the exact quote but it was something like this: “If Christianity does not make you very much better, I’m afraid it shall make you very much worse.”

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  116. But the church new about them at the time they were happening. Why didn’t they call the police then?

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  117. By this logic then the RCC should also look into ordaining women and homosexuals, so that they’ll have as many priests as the episcopals.

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  118. Even most critics seem to agree that the problems will not recur, at least not in the numbers that were once seen.

    Really? Which critics? Who has actually made that statement?

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  119. Insurance records indicate that Protestant ministers (all to my knowledge allow for marriage and in practice, most are) have similar or even slightly higher rates of abuse.

    I assume that you can actually produce those insurance numbers?! Or did you just see it “somewhere on the internet” or heard it “on some news show”

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  120. Those individuals who lean toward this type of behavior will seek professions that bring them closer to those they wish to abuse. Some, who have these tendencies, may seek to wall themselves away initially by wrapping themselves around faith, but in the end some are not strong enough on their own and give in to their tendencies. These professions include priests, teachers, counselors, coaches, and any other position that brings them into positions of authority or close contact with children.

    The Church made a continual mistake by trying to handle this problem internally and believing these offenders could be cured. It wasn’t that nothing was done (though there are surely cases where offenders were merely moved around), these priests were sent to intense counseling. But in the end it created more harm than good.

    The Church has now (at least in the United States and in my Diocese) become very proactive to ensure children are protected. Everyone who works in the parish (from Priest down to Eucharistic Ministers and Choir) are required to have two background checks. Those who have direct involvement with children must also take a class on the subject and we have also been trained on reporting anything suspicious as mandated by state law. In the classroom we practice two-deep leadership and we are instructed to always have another adult present when talking individually with a child. The priest follows this as well (except in the confessional).

    In some ways the Catholic Church is dealing with old offenses before these protective actions were put into place or the offenses were happening in places where the protective actions were not implemented quickly or at all (maybe because of the culture of the community). But the bottom line is now there are clear lines of accountability – specifically because of the hierarchal nature of the Church.

    Corrective and protective actions will be harder to implement in an independent church structure. Unless mandated by the state, each church will have to decide on what level (if any) of protection will be implemented. And if an offender (say minister) leaves that church it is more uncertain that information about the offender will ever reach the next church he preaches at.

    In a nutshell it is my perspective that the Church was behind in dealing with this issue, an evil that affects every profession or vocation involving children, but is rapidly putting protective procedures in place. Instead of pointing fingers each should turn to their own church and ask “What is my church doing to ensure the safety of the children in their care?” It is easier to place blame in others rather than look for action to be taken.

    My thoughts…

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  121. As others have mentioned this is far from being just an RCC problem. I know of an evangelical church in my area that a few years ago had similar problems, involving both a youth pastor and a lay leader. Being much more recent the reactions were much more public, and the responses much swifter (in both situations the church just threw the men involved under the bus, even chastising one of their own for trying to encourage repentance, reconciliation and healing, but that’s another story for another post). But no, this in not simply an RCC problem.

    Having said that, I agree that the RCC needs to own up to its problems, and “open the books,” if you will, at least enough to let us know that they are actually dealing with the situation, and to reassure people that they have, indeed, taken steps to prevent future occurances, as several have noted.

    Rescinding the requirement of celibacy probably wouldn’t be a bad idea either, again for reasons already noted.

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  122. John L. Allen, Jr. said on NPR last week that the church is a family, not a corporation and the pope is the father of the family, not the CEO. If there’s a problem in the family, nobody expects the father to step down, but rather to fix the problem. Don’t look for Benedict’s resignation.

    Second, the Archbishop of Canterbury can say what he likes but he seems difficult to satisfy for on the one hand, he faults Catholic hierarchs for hushing up crimes in the interest of credibility and then announces that the Catholic Church (in Ireland, he qualified it) has lost all credibility.

    Lots of us were through this nine or ten years ago. Speaking for myself, it was difficult but I got over it. This time around, I don’t think the same rationale I used last time for remaining Catholic is going to hold. It’s back to the drawing board. God has protected me personally from experiencing anything like an unfit priest in all my years. Most parishes operate as if the Church Universal were non-existent, in my experience. I do not expect my local pastor to discuss this issue publicly.

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  123. An argument can be made that even if removing the requirement of clerical celibacy doesn’t affect the front rank problem of child abusers in the clergy, it might ease the second rank problem of the episcopal reaction to it.

    The Catholic church (at least in the U.S., and I strongly suspect elsewhere) suffers from a severe clergy shortage. Compare this with, for example, the Episcopal church, which has plenty of clergy. Allow clergy to marry and much of this problem goes away. I personally know a guy who went to seminary and would make a terrific priest, but he decided the barrier of celibacy was too great for him. This story is not uncommon.

    So, once you remove that obstacle you no longer have to be constantly scrambling to find priests to fill vacancies. Currently, when the hierarchy discovers evidence one of its priests is a pedophile this presents two practical problems (leaving aside the moral issues): the potential public scandal, and the necessity of finding somebody to replace him. Remove the second problem and even a secretive organization now has the option of parking the guy some place far out of the way away from kids. This of course does not solve the underlying problem, but at least it would remove the temptation for the hierarchy to compound the problem by sending him to another parish and hoping for the best.

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  124. Those individuals who lean toward this type of behavior will seek professions that bring them closer to those they wish to abuse. Some, who have these tendencies may seek to wall themselves away initially by wrapping themselves around faith, but in the end some are not strong enough on their own and give in to their tendencies. These proffesions include priests, teachers counselors, coaches, and any other position that brings them int opositions of authority or close contact with children.

    The error in the way the Church has handles it in the past has been:

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  125. All denominations have reports of sexual abuse. Any church without “reducing the risk” policies and procedures in place is courting disaster. Most of these events occurred before insurance companies required churches to implement such background checks to prevent predators from sneaking in where they could have unsupervised access to children.

    This latest news bugs me. My understanding is that there are no new revelations as part of this, just an attempt to associate the Pope with them. When members of the Obama administration declare that the Roman Catholic church is public enemy number one, I start to wonder if this isn’t being orchestrated to discredit and silence the Catholic leadership regarding opposition to Obama’s social policies. I know that sound conspiratorial, but the timing is just so weird. And, yes, I am a protestant; however, if the Catholic church can be silienced, the rest of us are easy pickings. As I mentioned in a recent comment, protestants and fundigelicals need to beware of being used as pawns to attack the Catholic church – regardless of your opinions of the institution. I think divisions will always occur among Christians this side of eternity, but we need to understand how the devil can use those divisions to turn the church against itself.

    It is tragic; I don’t want to lose site of that. God have mercy on us all.

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  127. If the celibacy requirement were driving this, you’d expect to see much higher percentages of abuse among celibate priests than the population at large, but the numbers don’t bear that out. Public school teachers are far more likely to be abusers in this manner than Catholic priests. Insurance records indicate that Protestant ministers (all to my knowledge allow for marriage and in practice, most are) have similar or even slightly higher rates of abuse. So I really think that’s a red herring as far as this issue is concerned.

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  128. I wasn’t attempting to address this specific situation. While I agree this should be dealt with, I’m trying to address a much deeper problem than spans across denominations. This kind of thing will keep on happening if the larger problem is not addressed.

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  129. As a Catholic it is so hard to talk about any of this. It was wrong and there is no excuse. At the same time it’s hard to sit by and not say “but”. So here is my “but”. My understanding is that the Church did not “do nothing . . . just send them on.” Most (but not all) of those men were sent for psychological treatment, and many (but not all) were placed back into ministry after the treating professional said rehabilitation occured.

    I’m not trying to blame anyone else (in this case therapists). I’m just stating that bishops did “something” that “they thought worked.” It was an awful failure and they should have just stuck with Church rules that stated–kick them out.

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  130. What I wish:

    1. When bishops/parents/whoever heard of these abuses first happening, they called the police in.
    2. When bishops reported these molesting priests to the Vatican, that the Vatican worked immediately to investigate and “defrock” priests who were committing these crimes.
    3. Married priests should be allowed. This is not to say celibacy causes child molestation. But having a bigger “pool” of people to become priests may get healthier priests.

    My heart goes out to these victims. It’s hard to imagine a more heinous crime (other than murder) than when a child is molested in the confessional! There has to be a special punishment for a man who would do such a thing. It flies so in the face of all that is holy, all that Jesus taught, all that we expect from a man who is to represent the face of Jesus to the world. It actually makes me feel physically ill.

    The woman who is in charge of religious education in my local parish tells me that we now have a wonderful system in place in Maine to detect and report anyone within the parish who is suspected of abuse. I so hope and pray that is the case. And I hope and pray that no one will ever again abuse the children who rely on their elders for support, teaching and love.

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  131. this is merely further evidence that the RC church is apostate.

    Pretty much this.

    You see, boys and girls, this is what happens when you have people pretending to be Christians while they ignore what the Bible teaches.

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  132. Catholic dioceses everywhere have taken dramatic steps over the last few years to protect children and prevent such evil in the future. Even most critics seem to agree that the problems will not recur, at least not in the numbers that were once seen. The conversation now is mainly about how to take vengeance against past perpetrators and their enablers.

    I’m not sure there is any good answer except time. New generations of priests and bishops who are not stained by this scandal will take control in the next decade or two. Meanwhile we Catholics will have to take some punishment.

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  133. Making such mistakes is terrible because there is a human cost in victimization and the tolerance of covering up such crime. As others said it’s especially inexcusable, though, when it is incorrigibly and institutionally covered up. I agree with Lewis Smedes in his book “The Art Of Forgiving” that forgiveness is a gracious gift we extend among hurt and imperfect individuals, not corporations or institutions. If the world demands penitence on the part of the Catholic church they’re never going to get it. And if they do it’s just surface niceties because the wounds that exist can’t really be healed by such formalities.

    However the Catholic church institution — and indeed any religious institution where such violations occur — could do a lot better to assure that there is accountability between individuals, at whatever level they be — including the Bishop of Rome, if warranted — to make sure the healing that comes through the genuine interaction among humans can be encouraged as best as it can. If they do that I think it is the most helpful thing they can do.

    When I lost faith in Mormonism, the faith of my family, over 12 years ago, the institutional cover up about historical and other issues I let make me critical and angry toward institutional religions, and even God, for many years. It does hurt when I see friends and family who go through the same path of anger and alienation toward God because of institutional religion’s failings. Yet God reached me when I was broken and most ready. And I praise Him in spite of the personal and family cost I’ve paid to sever from that religion.

    Yet as frustrating and demotivating as it is, I realize that I really can’t heal such wounds when people I love hate religion and even God. That’s a “forgiveness” issue of which I’m not a party. It’s my faith that God knows who will have a heart for Him and will reach them when it’s the right time. He may or may not use institutional church, to some degree or another, to assist in his redemptive process. Where we as Believers and members of denominations don’t call for accountability I think we create obstacles to the joy of our ability to participate well in God’s work to redeem His own. But if it needs to be done, God will work around us and Institutional religion to reach His own.

    If it is to God’s Glory in Christ that institutional allegiances be broken, then I pray that we all will be broken sooner than later. But if it is to His glory that the Catholic church, or any Christian denomination be healed, I pray that individuals will own up appropriately and effectively that we may reflect and participate better in His glory instead of detract from it.

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  135. Personally, I don’t believe celibacy was the cause of this. In fact, a good % of child molestors are married. The failure here was the church’s inaction once these men were discovered. Instead of removing them they simply transferred them to other parishes which gave them to opportunity to continue to prey on children.

    The issue all these decades later is how the church reacts to all this NOW. The damage has been done. Many adults have carried this burden for decades (I’m not one) without revealing it to anyone because they wouldn’t be believed.

    The RC Church needs to open up their records and cooperate with the authorities’ investigations to help the victims be able to put this behind them, to find out why this happened, to hold those still around responsible and put to rest lingering doubts about the leadership.

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  137. I’m looking in vain for any mention of the all-important “phone call to the police department” step.

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  138. “The Roman Catholic Church is having a nightmare, and can’t wake up.”

    You are not in a position to impose this kind of rash judgment /penalty on the Church

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  139. Honestly my two cents as a historically and catholic minded Evangelical with a lot of Theological gleanings from the Orthodox Church and RCC is this. Absolve the absolute requirement that priests be unmarried. It sounds like a broad strok but mind you this regulation only came into place 1,000 after Christ, in the broad spectrum it is recent. I understand the theological justification and that is why I think Orthodox Christians have a good middle ground, priests can marry but only the celebate can be bishops.

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  141. If this was a one-off failure I’d be inclined to agree, but this is a repeated pattern over the course of decades in many countries. While I can forgive, this has caused thousands to become victims of heinous crimes. Needlessly.

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  142. Agreed. However, I don’t think we’ll ever be able to hold our leaders accountable until we stop expecting and projecting them to be perfect or closer to perfection than others. They absorb this stuff because we project it onto them. We all do. Holding leaders accountable includes recognizing they are not above need for a Savior and putting things in place to make it difficult for them to do this type of thing.

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  143. Religious history is full of examples of this, from this to Jimmy Swaggert to the Bakkers, etc, etc, etc. Although men are fallible, we hold out hope we can count on them to do right when it matters most. In this case it’s a particularly egregious transgression.

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  144. It’s the way the church has handled this that has people screaming. There’s no justification for covering this up, for transferring people instead of kicking them out of ministry, for blocking legal investigations, and then for admonishing the critics.

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  145. I agree with Josh. This is the case of the human condition. This is what Jesus Came to die for. Maybe the leadership is way to detached from all of it to understand that exorcism won’t cure the soul, that these men should be removed from leadership so they can’t hurt anyone else.

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  146. The church simply needs to follow Biblical guidance first. The elder/biship should be removed from contact with children, call the man to repentance privately (details of unrepentant sin) and require a public acknowledgement of an ongoing sin which prevents the “elder/bishop” from fulfilling the Biblical duties; if that does not work then publicly call to repentance with a warning of potential exclusion from membership and if still unrepentant then exclude from membership. The Bible provides the methods for the situation, by following them the RCC could bring some credibility to its hierarchy and be faithful to the soul of the sinner.

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  147. This is the human condition in the bright public spotlight. This is not about Catholics or “those people” who covered things up. This is about our brokenness and inability to fix ourselves. Catholics are not alone in holding up their leaders as infallible or sweeping things under the rug, and those who would point that finger need to take some time examining the log blocking their vision. We are human. We make mistakes. None of us is above mistakes or covering them up. This is why Jesus came. This should not hurt our witness, though it likely will mostly because we have given people the impression that being Christian means being above things like this. To the contrary, Christians should be giving the impression that they are very likely the worst among sinners. Why? Because no one is any better than anyone else in God’s eyes. So, whoever I think is the worst I should pause and take a good look at myself in the mirror. Witnessing should be confessing our brokenness and our need for a Savior. That is what all Christians should be touting right now and always. But, we won’t. Why? Because we’re broken.

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  148. I’m coming from an AngloCatholic perspective on things. And I have to agree with JohnH, it is hard to have faith in an institution that will not correct itself as an institution. This is not to say that an individual needs to step up and “reform” it. But that, as an institution, change needs to happen.

    I would find it incredibly difficult to listen to any protestant blame their theology of sexuality – most protestants don’t have an articulate position on the matter – let alone the RCC long tradition and stance on the matter. In my eyes, the most powerful ammunition they have to deal with this matter *is* their theology of sexuality, since the clergy’s behavior 100% contradicts it.

    The problem of sexual misconduct happens across all denomination lines, the only question is the degree to which it happens.

    As a Protestant I have come to the point where I cannot comprehend a position of apostasy for the Roman Catholic Church. The question is not their conduct, it literally cannot be from a protestant position. One can disagree with positions, but that is by no means apostasy.

    The issue does sadden me deeply. And I worry about its affect on the ongoing discussions in the Anglican communion. The one thing I don’t want to see, yet constantly see, is a politicization of the issue; robbing everyone, victim and perpetrator alike, of their humanity.

    $0.02

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  149. I am currently taking a seminary class where this is one of the primary topics of discussion. The data we have been presented indicates that this is not a situation isolated to Roman Catholics. Surveys of evangelicals apparently indicate over 3/4 of ministers personally know someone who has been involved in a sex scandal.

    Personally, what I am going to try to take from these news stories is two-fold: (1) develop ways to personally protect myself in my future ministry (not an easy task, but necessary) and (2) ensure that churches with which I work have clearly defined and open methods for investigation and resolution of such scandals.

    As to the RC church specifically, all I can say is that priests are human. They have taken on a very difficult profession. This type of “systemic” scandal should serve as a call to action to all levels of the RC church, from seminary/pastor training to post-transgression support for all parties involved. However, condemning any one person or group would in essence be a condemnation of all denominations, as I don’t think any denomination can claim zero similar occurences.

    And those Christians who take this opportunity to mount a witch hunt and scream for blood need to seek definitions for the words “grace” and “forgiveness” first.

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  150. The RC theologian James Alison pointed out (in a very different, though not entirely unrelated, context) that people can cope with church leaders failing. They can even cope with church leaders covering up the original failings. But what they can’t cope with – what really rouses people to fury – is incorrigibility, the sense that the church leadership refuses to accept criticism and correction once everything comes out into the open – that their priority continues to be shoring up their own position.

    I think that’s a large part of what’s causing such a storm now: the continuing sense that the hierarchy just don’t get it, that they are incorrigible, and are hence still pushing away the correction they need to undergo.

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  151. I understand this could happen anywhere, but to me the most terrible thing about this is the hierarchy’s attitude. First, they thought they needed to cover up the actual abuse to protect the reputation of the church, and now they believe the truth coming out is an actual attack on the church – akin to the Holocaust. Until the hierarchy wakes up, until they acknowledge the truth instead of remaining silent, until they open up their records, this absolute disgrace will carry on. It will drive the faithful away. It will besmirch every priest in the pulpit. It will rightfully make the church an object of ridicule and scorn.

    To any other organization watching this from the outside, learn the lesson here. This is exactly the wrong way to handle this crisis.

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