By Chaplain Mike
Over at ever-reliable culture-war news source, Christian Post, is a report on Charles Stanley’s “sobering 4th of July message about a dangerous spiritual tide that is engulfing the country.”
According to Pastor Stanley, the tide that is sweeping in is socialism.
“It is a tide that is bringing with it ideas and philosophies, actions and attitudes that will ultimately destroy the way of life that you and I have.”
Preaching in front of a huge American flag draped in the background of the church platform, Stanley said America is “violating God’s laws,” and warned that we are turning away from God and toward socialism, which will have grave spiritual consequences:
“The tide is bringing in a control that will indeed attempt to silence the truth and will attempt to squash the religious devotion and worship of the people of God.”
That tide began creeping in many years ago, he noted, when the government and the courts began banning prayer at schools and removing references to Jesus, God and the Ten Commandments from the public square, Stanley noted.
“It is an attempt to destroy the Christian spirit in America,” he said.
“There is a war going on against Jesus,” he declared. “It’s part of the strategy. The primary reason for this war against Him is He is interfering with the plan to make this a socialist nation. Mark it down. It is the truth.”
You can watch the message online here.The remedy he proposed is that God’s people devote themselves to pray for twenty weeks—140 days—asking God to supernaturally change the direction in which our country is going.
At least he didn’t ask us to join the Tea Party.
I’m sorry, but I have a hard time getting too worked up about this. Socialism? Really? This is the great threat to the Christian faith? Or wait, is it the threat to our “way of life”? To be honest, I have avoided exposure to this way of thinking because it drives me crazy.
But what do you think? Am I missing something?
Or is this just alarmist nonsense?
The Internet Monk Archives 
GOOD. LINE. RAY.
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Except now we’ve got one side (Socialism) saying
“ENVY GOOD! GREED BAAAAAAAAD! DIE, HERETIC!”
And the other (Capitalist-for-Christ) saying
“GREED GOOD! ENVY BAAAAAAAD! DIE, HERETIC!”
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What doesn’t seem to bother the Stanley steamer and his cohorts on the religious right is the ever-widening gap between the wealthy and the poor…
i.e. The exact conditions that spawned La Revolution in 18th Century France and later spawned Communism in Victorian Europe.
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The devil, as Paul stated, appears as an angel of light. He doesn’t appear as a monster or a dragon; rather, he appears in a form that we trust – a desecration of the incarnation, if you will. That is what to me is so frightening about Revelation, where even the elect are taken in by the anti-Christ.
“There’ll always be Nazis among you,
You’ll always have Nazis among you;
Next time they won’t wear brown shirts or boots,
They’ll come speaking softly in three-piece suits,
But you’ll always have Nazis among you…”
— Donna Barr, closing aria, Desert Peach: The Musical
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I’m pretty sure the guy’s crooked, though. He built his career in the Chicago Dem Party Machine, and in Chi-town, machine politics is a VERY dirty business.
And he knows how to use his charisma to give himself a free ride on his listeners’ doublepluswarmfeelies.
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Glen Beck sounds like the preachers & now the preachers sound like Glen Beck.
You mean like this? 🙂
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P.S. Real good deal for any Kyle’s Mom or Busybody in a position of power within the system. Not only can they be nosy about everything to do with their Poor Unwashed Inferiors (i.e. you, me,. and anybody without political/bureaucratic clout), they can cop a Moral Superiority Attitude — “It’s All For Your Own Good!”, wagging finger and all.
Actually, not that much different from a church where nosy Church Ladies are the real power behind the pastor. Just the justification and payoff are Political instead of Spiritual.
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You want to know why socialism is scary? Because it only works when EVERYBODY involved cares about the welfare of EVERYBODY else. Look at monasteries, communes, convents, retirement homes…all can be interpreted as socialist societies. All work very well.
The general public of our nation, or of any nation, is not that way. Humanity by nature has an attitude of “F— you; got mine!†until we choose to change, and most of us don’t.
What usually results is that Socialism becomes a Cosmic-level justification (Divine Right with doublepluswarmfeelies) for the control freaks and bureaucrats administering the system. A Socialist Aristocracy of “Admin” in all but name. They get theirs and the rest of us get F’ed.
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I also find the poster with the nosy socialist inspectors ironic. I have been in several churches which felt like ideological fishbowls, where disagreeing with politically-conservative pundits was equal to blasphemy.
In both cases, you have control freaks who’ve gotten power over you and really LIKE throwing their weight around. Whether those control freaks title themselve Commissar or Christian Culture Warrior.
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What obstacles are there to starting a Church in Sweden?
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well said Catherine; I was too lazy to write what you wrote, and as someone who is (usually) quite conservative politically, I couldn’t agree with you more. What Jesus has going is HIS Kingdom, which does not fit neatly into any of our political boxes.
Greg R
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Lex,
I know this is a few days late, but I’ve been pondering this issue and discussing it with my sister in law over that time. I’m very strongly conservative, but I take issue with Stanley’s choice of venue for his expression of this opinion. He gave a political speech as a sermon. There is no place in the Bible that says that our nation must be capitalist or a democracy. There are lots of Democrats out there who would argue that there is a larger role for government involvement in our lives but who are also completely sold out for Jesus. Yet, Stanley’s “speech” would seem to rule that out.
I’m very politically conservative and don’t like where our country is headed with healthcare, etc., but I believe firmly that the evangelical church needs to separate itself from conservative politics. If Stanley had made that speech at a Tea Party or other political event, I would have stood up and cheered. I just don’t think it’s much of a sermon.
(And, on a side note, it sounds kind of selfish to say that we need to pray to protect “our way of life” as opposed to following the will of God. Maybe that’s splitting hairs, but Jesus calls us to obedience, not to our American way of life.)
I’m not a frequent IM commenter, but I did want to clarify that there are some of us (and I think probably a fair number) who consider ourselves politically/economically/socially conservative, but disagreed with Dr. Stanley. You’re certainly not alone!
Blessings,
Catherine
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Don’t forget the scaling factor. Maybe Socialist-style communal arrangements work on a small scale, but break down and/or go seriously sour over a certain maximum size.
My candidate is the “troop-size limit” of around 150, the average number of individuals a human brain can recognize as individual people instead of an abstract “The People”. (Either way, it’s a LOT smaller than a nation the size of the USA.) Since the French Revolution and Citizen Robespierre’s Republique of Perfect Virtue, breaking individual eggs to make the abstract Perfect Omelet has been far too common an attitude among those mesmerized by The Perfect Society. Because when that meme takes over, you can never break too many eggs.
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You laugh, but objectivism produces the most Christian society.
Who is LORD, Johnson?
Christ or Ayn Rand?
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Our nation has unalterably agreed through the Declaration of Independence that our individual rights come from God. Socialism says our rights come from the State. Governing socialistically violates our contracted rights to individual liberty–it violates the basic agreements on which our nation was founded. Thus, socialism in the U.S. will always be illegitimate and therefore unchristian–not because socialist governments must always be unchristian everywhere, but because violating agreements is always unchristian.
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First, you are correct that socialism will not make America perfect. It may or may not mess things up more or make them a little better. I don’t know. I don’t know enough about all the issues involved. I can’t speak for everyone here, but my concern has less to do with whether socialism works as an economic system, and more to do with the idea that Rev. Stanley appears to have conflated one particular economic system/lifestyle with Christianity.
Second, a thought: it is true that we are never instructed in the Bible to rely on man for our well-being, but the Bible does have some things to say about our responsibility for the well-being of others. Chaplain Mike addressed this in the OT context.
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🙂 When I read your first post to my husband, he said “surely he’s being sarcastic.” And I almost decided not to reply. And here you had us all along. I have to admit to breathing a sigh of relief. Although… not entire relief, if you really know Christians who think like this in all honesty. Thanks for making me sharpen up some of my thinking. And good work – you struck just the right note of sincerity not to tip us off. 🙂
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Thanks Mike,
From what I’ve read, I understand that IM isn’t intended to be a political media. I’ve enjoyed many articles and have been blessed by much of what I’ve read here. I’m just a believer who isn’t ashamed of America — though I am concerned over the direction it seems to be taking. I had enough liberation theology in seminary to last two lifetimes, and I see a lot of that influence in the comments.
Perhaps the “lone conservative” here, but that’s O.K. with me.
Lex
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L., we generally don’t deal with politics around here. And even this post is not so much about politics as it is about the way some people perceive the faith. Note the title again.
That being said, you may be right. I can’t speak for the political commitments of the commenters.
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As a relative newcomer to IM, I have found this article and its responses to be about the most revealing of any I’ve read so far in terms of its political/theological leanings. Maybe it is just because of the nature of this discussion but, those on the LEFT seem to rule the day! I should look back at previous entries to see if there has been any discussion on the current illegal immigration invasion of Arizona — though I think I can guess where that discussion would be going…
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Interesting perspective noted on Scot McKnight’s Jesus Creed blog today:
“For what it’s worth, socialists deny that Obama is one of them – and even seem a bit insulted by the suggestion”I have been making a living telling people Obama is not a socialist,” says Frank Llewellyn, national director of the Democratic Socialists of America. “It’s frustrating to see people using our brand to criticize programs that have nothing to do with our brand and are not even working. … Adds Billy Wharton,co-chair of the Socialist Party USA: “I am not even sure he’s a liberal. I call him a hedge fund Democrat.”
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Only three? My parents were saying it in the 50s.
They’re still wrong.
You want to know why socialism is scary? Because it only works when EVERYBODY involved cares about the welfare of EVERYBODY else. Look at monasteries, communes, convents, retirement homes…all can be interpreted as socialist societies. All work very well.
The general public of our nation, or of any nation, is not that way. Humanity by nature has an attitude of “F— you; got mine!” until we choose to change, and most of us don’t.
As for the bigger point…
…everything I’ve said up till now is a political argument, has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus Christ, and it disgusts me that people try to make it a “Christian” concept.
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My understanding is that Lutherans do not permit a flag in the church — Luther was an advocate of the separation of powers — and I think the takeover of the fascists of the Lutheran Church in Germany was a sobering reaffirmation that the church is corrupted by the state.
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I am all about keeping the government out of my churches. I get annoyed with mention of “the power of the state” during marriage ceremonies.
The flip side of the coin is that I am not worried about the destruction of some alleged Christian nation. The only Christian nation that exists now and has ever existed is the entire body of Christ that transcends and supersedes political boundaries.
I simply can’t understand anymore why Christians get upset when a secular political body “violates God’s laws” or something similiar.
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If brother Stanley, by saying, “will … destroy the way of life that you and I have” means the patriotic, arrogant, self-serving, consumerist, wasteful, militaristic, apathetic, individualistic, churchianity american lifestyle; I say bring it on…
I pray often that God would allow something to upend that status quo that is so deeply ingrained, even amidst claiming Christ followers, including this one…Yes, I’m grateful for His grace in putting me in the richest, easiest place to live on the globe…and no, my flesh does not relish giving it all up, but Jesus and His kingdom (teachings) have opened my eyes and my rich robes feel like stinking rags when I know so many innocents suffer and grovel under my red, white and blue heel…
How ironic that Stanley says socialism is the main threat while simultaneously, but unwittingly revealing the true threat — the belief that we deserve our pedestal and it’s even a spiritual ‘high place’ towering over civilization… IMO it’s a decades long battering ram of american dream exceptionalism ([our] “way”) that has shaped the church in america into something that almost resembles…an anti-Christ.
Lord have mercy on us, for we don’t deserve any more american riches and comforts… and I submit and surrender to any “ism” that God allows to come along and destroy it…because I’m convinced He’s not nearly as enamored with it as many of His so called followers are…
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Haven’t we been hearing this same tired refrain for 3 decades now?
“Big, SCARY Socialism! It’s coming! Really! I know we said this in 1999, but this time we MEAN it!!!”
It’s gotten old…
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Thanks, Damaris. I agree.
The “old” me (just a few months ago) would have either ignored this truth or tried to justify in my own mind that Jesus was not talking to me when he said radical things like this. I also would have thought that loving the poor was charity without justice. My family live thousands of miles from me and while they’ve walked with me through a time of brokenness (mostly from afar), I haven’t yet told them *all* of the ways Christ is renewing my mind nor that I, too, would abandon them in order to follow Jesus if I had to. I find it odd to share some things through the phone/internet and I also think my super-duper patriotic dad (who is a tender heart and who I know truly loves and adores me) might be saddened. My heart change, the real Jesus in me, is radically changing me so that he might not really know me. When I see dad again, I’ll follow the Spirit’s leading in authentic conversation I pray will be marked with love. I don’t know what I’ll say; I trust the Spirit to lead. Dad will love me still. I’m blessed with a dad like that.
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I’ve always thought our attitude toward our country ought to be similar to our attitude toward our parents. My parents were not perfect by any means, but they loved me, and they were mine. Other people don’t have to love my parents the way I do. I may allow myself to criticize them, but I would rather other people didn’t. If they had committed a crime, I think I would probably have told them to turn themselves in or that I would if they didn’t. I will always be grateful to them for all they did for me, but if the point came that I had to abandon them in order to follow Jesus, I would.
n the same way, I love my country and will always be grateful. I don’t expect others to love my country the way I do; in fact I hope they love their own. I won’t turn a blind eye to its faults and crimes, and there may come a point (many points) where I will have to choose Christ over country. It’s a tragedy when that happens, from Antigone on, but Jesus warns us it may happen.
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“Honestly, when has God ever stepped in supernaturally to change the tide of a country?”
You’re serious, right?
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As the daughter of a proud retired Marine and as one who relishes my freedom to worship freely, I find this kind of alarm that I once bought into quite ridiculous now. I’ve always believed that my comforts could be taken away at a moments notice (young friends lost to cancer, friends facing eviction with no place to go, an upper-middle-class friend out of work for 16 months now and unemployment to run out very soon with no leads, reality of a broken world all around me), but I’ve been in pursuit of the American dream and put my faith in stability of this country (oft encouraged in the churches I’ve been raised in) over my pursuit of God anyway. No more. I agree with Damaris above, Rev. Stanley “has misidentified the threat to Christianity.”
And I am quite sure my father is not reading this, but just in case…I am not a socialist. Just a sinner learning that the real Jesus of the Bible cared more for the poor and hurting than pretty buildings and creature comforts where I’ve made my home. I wonder if I can share my heart with my dad without hurting his feelings.
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L., IMHO, it is a profoundly Christ-like thing to do to be thankful for God’s common grace in allowing us to live in such a wonderful, free country. Speaking for myself, I’m sorry if you received another message from this post.
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Tithing is 10%, but there were many “10%’s” required, and when you add them all together, they amounted to much more than 10%. Because Israel was a nation, a theocracy, these requirements were laws, not just guidelines for good-hearted people.
The situation is different under the New Covenant.
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Kellie, I don’t think anyone here is advocating socialism as a practical alternative to whatever our current mixed-up system is. The issue with Rev. Stanley is that a) he doesn’t define or use the term socialism correctly, and b) he has misidentified the threat to Christianity.
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Wow… is it O.K. to say that I am grateful to be an American?
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Hmm, I always thought tithing was 10% and I was under the impression that they didn’t make a big thing about forcing these requirements on people. I do agree when you say that the bible Teaches that we should care for the needy and the poor, but I believe the bible teaches us to do it from our heart and because God wants us to do it, not for the government to confiscate it and give to who they define as being poor.
I wonder if people in Germany in the 30’s that spoke against the Nazi’s were called alarmist?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Stanley should be talking about this stuff. I don’t think Christians should be culture warriors.
Judging from the post on this subject my facts about history must be seriously wrong.
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As a member of the military myself, I know the feeling of wanting to balance love for your country with love for God – both good things, but one of them is essential. One thing I do believe strongly, though, is that as Americans and Christians we need to find that balance.
Mixing religion and politics, or even religion and patriotism, is dangerous. Full stop. But our lives as American Christians (for those of you who are American Christians) are still going to be affected by the state of our country. Not only do we live here, but it’s pretty heartbreaking to see how degenerate our country has in many ways become.
As Christians, I would hope that we could get patriotism right. Politicians and advertising agencies are going to exploit it for their own ends, sure. But although many people even inside the church make an embarrassing production of it, surely Christian faith and good sense are the only things that can keep patriotism from going crazy.
I think G. K. Chesterton said it best: “Hate the world enough to change it, and love it enough to think it worth changing.”
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Dear Mike — thanks for posing this question thoughtfully. The answer is: alarmist nonsense. Americans have shown little inclination for socialism, even when socialistic ideas are in their own best interest — such as Social Security. This so-called warning is worse than nonsense — it is a suckers’ game. Any professional journalist will tell you that the function of the fourth estate is to set the agenda. Ministers should not allow themselves to be part of that agenda. You and I both know exactly which cable news station has generated this allegation, and which party hopes to gain by having you believe it. This is a (not very )cloaked plea for the Republican party. If every one believes that we are diving headlong into socialism now, then they must vote against Obama — right? I think this was just a sidewinder way of saying Vote Republican.
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When God founded a nation (Israel), he constantly emphasized that the entire nation was responsible for caring for the poor and disadvantaged in their midst. Not only did he emphasize it, he mandated it in the law. And to make it happen, he imposed taxes (tithes) on all people that amounted to 30-40% of their income. They weren’t even allowed to harvest everything in their own fields; they had to leave the “corners” for others. Then, of course, there were the Sabbatical years and the Year of Jubilee, when all debts were to be canceled, and the land redistributed to its original owners.
It sounds to me like God wanted the needy to be able to count on their communities to care for them. It was the law.
Not saying we should do the same in America, just food for thought.
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I love a good satire. Trouble is, there really are people who think like that, and you played the part well. But thanks for coming clean in the end.
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Someone is not reading their history books. Socialists countries are not known for their Christianity, that’s because the government controls everything and provides everything. Why do they need God? In some instances the government tells the people what to believe and what religion they should have or the religion they have to have.
Socialism is just a hand out and it helps get rid of the rich politician’s guilt. America was made by hardworking, Christian people who never expected or wanted their government to take care of them. Nowhere in the Bible does it instruct us rely on man for our well-being (I checked).
Christian people, don’t get brain washed into thinking that socialism will make America perfect, it will only serve to weaken us economically. Rev. Stanley has a valid reason to be concerned.
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I apologize for messing with you all. My first post was truth in that I have read conservative Christians making all those arguments. My personal views are very much aligned with your responses.
But when I read an email encouraging Christians to set up booths at church to get signatures on yet another way to target aliens, following their work to keep foster kids from being adopted, I got irritated. What does it feel like to be that kind of Christian?
When I read your loving, gentle responses, I felt bad. But I wanted to respond, too. I had the choice of 1) going all Team Pyro, with 10,000 words of precision-Bible-logic and absolute certainty in God’s word that capitalism is the preferred market structure of Jesus (that’s where I got the theology that says universal health care is a violation of the 10th commandment), or 2) letting you down gently by going over the top with that stuff about corporations being moral.
I mean, if you weren’t aware there are Christians who think and believe the stuff I’ve been posting, please know it. I can attest there are a LOT in this southern state. I am facebook friends with a Methodist pastor who is an active member of the Tea Party and is always asking people to pray for Obama to fail because he is a socialist. Arghhh… I just clench my teeth.
Thank you for putting up with my exercise in frustration with our society. I am very sorry if I offended anyone. I am very much inspired by the tone of your responses and this has been a learning experience for me in Christian communication.
Blessings.
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had to make sure there wasn’t an “R” after your log-in to make sure I didn’t type it…..
Amen, to you Mr.G
the other Greg
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I’ll go on record as supporting this. 🙂
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I’m not so much laughing as a bit incredulous and confused. Having (apparently) led a sheltered life, I haven’t run into this argument taken to such an extent and in all seriousness before. It’s good for me, as it’s forcing me to think some things out. For that I thank you. I do have some more questions about what you said here.
“…was he pointing us to structures where those who are hungry use that hunger as an incentive to get a job and so feed themselves?”
What if the market produces jobs where even those eager to work cannot support a family on the wages that they make? Is it moral to allow this to happen because the market has brought it about?
“…my caution would be that “community†and “communism†have the same root word.”
Is “communism” (and here I’m sure that I’m using the word loosely) really a danger that we should actively avoid in our voluntary Christian communities?
Greg R already addressed another one of my concerns. Lastly:
“…customers in the marketplace choose the corporation’s products and services that best meet their needs for cost, quality and morality.”
I think what you’re describing here is the ideal, not necessarily the reality. Often it’s necessary to compromise on at least one of those factors. Morality and quality, for instance, will often lose when they compete with cost (note what I said earlier about jobs that don’t pay enough to support a family).
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“When we gather together in corporations, just as within congregations, we align ourselves toward a common goal and purpose.”
The courts have ruled that corporations are people. They didn’t go far enough. Apparently corporations are also churches.
“If oil or health insurance or banks are so bad, why do people continue to buy insurance or oil or stocks? The only conclusion is that these companies are doing the right thing or they would not still be in business.”
No, the oil companies, insurance companies and banks are in business largely because our tax dollars keep bailing them out, even after subsidizing them in the first place. And yet you claim that taxing for health care is violating the 10th Commandment (still waiting for an explanation of that one).
Johnson, your arguments are not new, although they seem new when applied to the Bible. They come out of other philosophies like utilitarianism, or capitalism, or the philosophy of Nietzsche and his “will to power”, or “might makes right”.
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@EricW: could you create me up some Sumatra or Kenyan AA, cream and sweetener, pleeze.?? ……and make it appear very hot 🙂 🙂
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EricW would not have created this system and placed us within it if it were not good. We must have faith in his creation.
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The only conclusion is that these companies are doing the right thing or they would not still be in business.
You are likely to get some action from this post, I appreciate your replies. You are conflating two different categories of “right”. What is “right” in a business sense may, or may not be right in the christian sense. A business is in the business to do business and stay in business. That is the “right” thing. Any other kind of “right” is at best peripheral, and at worst, competitive to the goal of doing business. I’m not ant-business, but the phrase heard occaisionally “the market corrects itself” is NOT true in the moral sense of the word “corrects”. Not unless that correction happens to affect the bottom line.
My point is not that ANY business or corporation is “bad”, but rather a christian approaches these with the attitude that the Kingdom needs to be applied to its understanding and operation, at least WITHIN the christian: these institutions are not on a moral autopilot, not even the capitalistic ones, and therefore need to be seen thru a Jesus-filter (as does anything else)
Confusing ramble, perhaps, but I’m looking for my afternoon java…..
Again, thanks for the back and forth, mate
Greg R
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You don’t have to keep looking very frequently, HUG. They don’t change . . .
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And if socialist countries are still peaceful and productive, the only conclusion is that these countries are doing the right thing or they would not still be sovereign. Does that work for you?
And I have to say that I haven’t ever seen your interpretation of Jesus’ command to feed his sheep. Literally yes, as a pastor Peter would have some responsibility for his flock’s well-being; metaphorically, he is to be the spiritual guide for the flock. But seeing the command to feed sheep as instructions to form a corporation implies a very modern, western, capitalist interpretation that I don’t think will hold up over time and space.
As far as your last question, I haven’t been able to afford health insurance for 20 years, if I had transportation and utilities that used alternate sources of fuel, I’d buy them in a second, and I pretty much limit my banking to a checking account. My vote hasn’t been going toward oil, insurance, or banks, but I haven’t noticed them caring all that much. How do other people vote here?
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You laugh, but objectivism produces the most Christian society.
When Jesus told Peter to feed His sheep, did he mean that literally? Or was he pointing us to structures where those who are hungry use that hunger as an incentive to get a job and so feed themselves?
As far as the community aspect of Christianity, it is undeniably there, but my caution would be that “community” and “communism” have the same root word. The way we live in our lives in community without being communistic is through another ‘c’ word, the corporation.
When we gather together in corporations, just as within congregations, we align ourselves toward a common goal and purpose. In our economy, profit and “social goodness” go hand in hand as customers in the marketplace choose the corporation’s products and services that best meet their needs for cost, quality and morality.
If oil or health insurance or banks are so bad, why do people continue to buy insurance or oil or stocks? The only conclusion is that these companies are doing the right thing or they would not still be in business.
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I think this sort of nonsense is a delayed result of cold-war era propaganda that pitted Christian America against Atheist Communism. (Communism and Socialism are generally seen as being practically the same thing in alarmist literature.)
There’s not really much basis for the belief that America is becoming really socialist. And, though I do not think socialism is a very viable system for large entities such as America, socialism in Christian communities is hardly without precedent. Think of the Jesuit reductions in South America – or some of the Apostolic churches.
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I laughed, but it’s sort of a tragi-comedy. 🙂
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Judging from what I used to hear about “He Shall Rule With a Rod of Iron — No Sin Will Be Tolerated!” and “Start preparing yourself now for your eternal job in Christ’s coming Kingdom!”, very well. They expect to be God’s Inner Party and Thought Police, with all the brownie-point privileges of being God’s Special Pets. Long Live Big Brother.
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Make the Sign of the Dollar along with John Galt.
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Here in California, the only labor unions who retain political clout are “Public Employee Unions”, i.e. white-collar unions for various Government bureaucrats.
If I wasn’t stupid enough to actually work for a living and became a Good Little Outer Party Member, I’d be retired now at $80,000 a year plus free medical care for life, regardless of inflation rate. All I’d have to do was duckspeak the Party Line, vote exactly as my union bosses tell me, and never ever rock the boat.
Whatever they want, they get. Period. It’s a major reason the state’s bankrupt and obsessed with “Revenue Enhancement (TM)”.
Labor Union in California today does not mean “guy in a hard hat”. It means “nasty paper-pusher behind the counter at the DMV, highly offended at the inconvenience of having to interact with the proles.”
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Wow, that’s an interesting take on the Gospel. Unfortunately, not an unusual one.
God help us.
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Well said. When I hear this kind of stuff about the demise of ‘Christian’ America, I’m reminded of how well the early church did in a society that was much less ‘Christian’ and much more hostile to their faith (and not a capitalist democracy to boot). Unfortunately for many of us (an ‘inclusive’ us), the American way of life is so bound up with our faith, anything that threatens that way of life is seen as a threat to that faith. If we could unbind our faith and country (the ‘Christ and Culture’ question) it would probably be much healthier for all of us (including secular America!). What might turn out bad for America might turn out much better for the church, if we do in fact run to the Cross.
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Not so fast–it’s not that easy. Insofar that I am the member of any democratic group, whether that’s a local congregational voter’s assembly, a professional society, or yes, a USA citizen, I’m obligated to abide by the will of the majority even if I feel my minority view is superior but ignored. I’ve no difficulty envisioning that some in the early church, possibly those that had the most to “lose”, thought their church’s approach was naive, soft, overly-generous, bound-to-fail, and even Statist. I’ve sometimes felt some of my congregation’s benevolences (handouts) were in that category. Yet that was the deal to be a Christian back then–there wasn’t a Capitalist Apostolic Church down the road to join up with instead. (Or perhaps there was; disgruntled former Christians who formed a break-away capitalist body. But history would have branded them as heretics, wouldn’t they?) Once you’ve put your hand to the plow, Christianity really isn’t voluntary, is it?
Similarly, those today that feel ANY socialist element (like Medicare, public roads, oversight of high-risk oil drilling) is some evil, unbearable burden should be prepared to apply the same standard to the historic, apostolic church. Or pull up roots and move to Australia (or whatever is the Capitalist Utopia to these people) when elections don’t go their way. After all, shouldn’t a Christian find it easier to change his nationality than his religion?
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I’m glad someone made note of these passages. When I mention them in an “Obama is an Evil Socialist” context, I’m amazed that lifelong churchgoers can be totally amazed by them. It’s as though they’ve heard them read from the lectionary many times, but never thought about what they were hearing. I think we Christians need to be quite forthright that socialism is NOT evil, just possibly not workable given mankind’s sinful greed and/or laziness. Hence, capitalism is a pragmatic choice, not a righteous one. Insofar that there is any “economy” in Heaven at all (and since there isn’t any “need” there, this could be pointless) it would certainly be socialism.
The political Right has traditionally chided the Left for “wearing their heart on their sleeves” and promoting “giveaway/handout” programs that were financially unwise while they were the “cool, calm, considerate set”. There was never an implication that the Left was evil, just naive. However, today the “evil” labeling of the Left by the Right shows not just a severe coarsening of political discourse but a dumbing down of biblical and historical knowledge as well. Regardless of our political persuasion, I believe we’re obligated to resist it.
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The bible does not have an explicit assessment of modern economic systems and Christians may differ on their views,
Anyone else see a trend here with Creation Week ? (sorry to bring this back to life Matthew 🙂 )
trying to force feed our ‘christian’ worldview into the specifics of a particular discipline looks to be a theologically foolish errand..
nice post John ‘Arthur, great to have you here at IMONK
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Johnson, not to gang up on you, but where does the Bible say that the emphasis is on the individual? Is this a “me-first” religion? Doesn’t Jesus say to deny ones’s self and to follow Him, and also to help the least of these?
And how does taxing for health care violate the 10th Commandment?
This is interesting, because you are not the only one to say these things. I’m trying to understand why so many people follow what you’re saying, and where they get it.
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thanks Damaris, pray that I’d be helpful and respectful; The ‘courage’ post hit me a weird way back a few months, and I’ve decided as I enter my mid fifties to hold back less and say what needs to be said , this is much easier on a blog than to real life people, but I’m making inroads there as well.
I look forward to your future work, esp. regarding the interplay of faith and culture.
Greg R
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Actually, the only time in my church that I have noticed the flag even acknowledged was at a VBS. I took my girls there when they were little and stayed for the early assembly. The teacher began by whipping up the kids’ enthusiasm with the story of Daniel, “who refused to worship the king! Hooray! and then he prayed by his window to the real God. Hooray! and we’re going to learn more about Daniel’s faithfulness to God later, but first it’s time to pledge allegiance to the flag. I pledge allegiance…..”
I’m not really sure to this day if that was tragic or funny.
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Hi Mike,
Socialism is defined in different ways by people. For some, socialism means state or public or collective owmership of capital goods, land and natural resources.For others, socialism is defined as a more equal distribution of income, wealth and power within the framework of capitalism. Still others use the term socialism to means partial nationalisation (other than “public” goods) within a predominantly private enterprise economy.
By capitalism, I mean a system of predominantly private ownership of the means of production and the use of markets as the principal means of resource allocation.. There are varying degrees of state intervention in what are predominantly capitalist economies.
Obama is not a socialist in terms of the first and third definitions above as far as I can see. He is concerned about health care and we, in Australia, have had medicare for all for many years without any problems. The preacher you refer to is alamist indeed. His position is not based on the biblical witness to Jesus. The bible does not have an explicit assessment of modern economic systems and Christians may differ on their views, I remember once reading the Wesleyan social ethicist Philip Wogaman’s book on economic ethics where he presents different Christian perspectives on economic ethics and economic systems. Perhaps this Pastor would do well to read it and give up his alarmist views.
Shalom,
John Arthur
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Wrapped in the flag, in other words. Washed in the blood of the flag…
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Yeah, when did this Christian flag appear? I’ve lived a lot of my life overseas, so I tend to miss things like this, but I never saw a “Christian” flag or heard of pledging allegiance to it until about fifteen years ago. Is Christianity a nation?
I’m tickled by the phrase “Obama-style socialism.” That’s a bit like saying “Rockefeller-style communism.” Obama is not a socialist.
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I always like your comments, greg r. I’m grateful that you saw this and said it.
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Mennonite church: no flag. Not ever. I used to attend Baptist vacation Bible schools, and always experienced great inner conflict when the time came to do the pledge of allegiance. Do I? Don’t I? So I suppose that we would fall into your “churches where it is forbidden” category. There’s a strong emphasis on a separate kingdom; we happen to live in this one, but our real allegiance is only to Christ’s.
As for my personal views on it… I would be pretty uncomfortable with a flag in church, and with any kind of connection of Christianity and American patriotism. I don’t believe that it is impossible to be a patriot (on some level) and a Christian, but I don’t think that they are really connected. Does that make sense?
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When Jesus told us to pay taxes, did He differentiate between ones that we think are fair and ones that we think are not?
How can an economic system be the single greatest threat to the Christian faith?
When Jesus talked about helping “the least of these” did He tell us to only help “the least of these who are of the same nationality as you and in your country legally”?
Final thought (along the lines of what Greg R said): “The emphasis is on the individual, whether it be accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior or working hard to make money and be successful.” Really? That is what the gospel is all about? My personal salvation? It’s not about the church, the Bride of Christ? Or about the redemption of everything that is twisted and sadly fallen in this broken world? It’s not about God’s plan for the whole of everything, and my small part in it? This, now, is an honest question: did you mean to say this?
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“Whose Kingdom are we ultimately part of, anyway? ”
That’s the real question. If I claim the Kingdom of God, I should be acting accordingly..
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The emphasis is on the individual, whether it be accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior or working hard to make money and be successful.
there are some who could make a pretty solid case that THIS is the greatest danger to christianity
Greg R
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“Obama-style socialism is the gravest threat to Christianity today, no doubt.”
I am having a hard time believing that any economic system is a grave threat to Christianity. I don’t think Jesus was born while a Democratic Republic was in power. He was in a conquered land. He certainly wasn’t born on Wall Street.
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As I said in a previous comment, there is plenty of room to talk about what the balance should be with regard to individuals, communities, churches, and government providing services in a society. But Johnson, really? The gravest threat to Christianity today? Not only can I not buy that, I can’t even consider that a serious statement.
And by the way we all pay for one another’s health care, no matter what system we use. That’s what insurance is.
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I’ve read estimates of 30-40%, actually, when you add all the various tithes together.
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This was not a flag IN the sanctuary, this was a flag forming the entire backdrop of the front of the sanctuary.
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Eric, sorry for the delay. I’ve had some strange experiences with the moderation filter lately. Thanks for your patience and perseverance.
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What doesn’t seem to bother the Stanley steamer and his cohorts on the religious right is the ever-widening gap between the wealthy and the poor, the scandal of health care in the country, the growing contempt heaped on the gospel by “Christians” advocating the “second amendment solution” to policies they don’t like, and their thinly disguised racism and xenophobia. In the past Catholics tended to shy away from the descendants of the Know Nothings – sadly, they’re being sucked into the grim phantasies of the LaHayes, the MacArthurs, the Stanleys, the Falwells, and their disciples. Americans are showing themselves incapable of understanding the “commonweal”. Too many Christians see the flag as their salvation, and Mammon as their god. I see real Christians providing medical care and shelter to the indigent, providing meaningful care to pregnant women instead of money for politicians who can’t keep their pants above their knees, and preaching Gospel of repentance and the Good News of Jesus Christ, instead of the half-baked philosophies of Rand and Hayek .
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For some reason, my post of the following has remained under moderation all day long. Hmmmm. I’ll try again without the quotes.
Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it’s just the opposite. – John Kenneth Galbraith
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“History has shown that the Grand Inquisitor is always ready to reappear in different disguises, political as well as theological” – Paul Tillich.
What concerns me is that evangelicals can’t fathom that one of those disguises is that of a theo-con or neo-con. The devil, as Paul stated, appears as an angel of light. He doesn’t appear as a monster or a dragon; rather, he appears in a form that we trust – a desecration of the incarnation, if you will. That is what to me is so frightening about Revelation, where even the elect are taken in by the anti-Christ. With what appears to be yet another violent lurch to the right with the upcoming election, I am concerned that evangelicals are buying yet another lie in the disguise of religious conservatism.
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“Preaching in front of a huge American flag draped in the background of the church platform, Stanley said America is “violating God’s laws,†and warned that we are turning away from God and toward socialism…”
Slightly off-topic, Chaplain Mike, but I’d be interested in what people have to say about flags in the sanctuary. My only experience has been with Baptist or Congregational churches here in New England, where there is normally a US flag in the left rear corner, but is never part of any service. It merely sits there, balancing the Christian flag in the other corner.
On another blog over the 4th of July, there was a photo of a US flag next to the altar, which gave the author of the blog the “heebie-jeebies”.
What do other churches do or not do with flags? Do most churches have them at all? Are they forbidden in any?
In my 18 years with current church, the flag has sat there quietly, with nobody ever mentioning its existence. I can handle that fine, but the moment anybody starts pledging allegiance to it, for example, during a service, I’d invoke the 1st and 2nd Commandments and other choice verses pronto.
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For that matter, I wonder how many Premillennialists would react under a literal millennial kingdom, where their free market democracy will be replaced by a theocracy.
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Actually, The taxes were higher than 10%. There was a 10% tithe just to care for the Levites (who had no inheritance). There were other tithes and gleaning laws that supported the poor.
Of course, the thing that made it really socialist was the forced redistribution of wealth every fifty years.
Incidentally, when Jesus preaches he says he has come to declare the year of Jubilee. That was the year when the wealth redistribution thing happened.
Just some food for thought.
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I belong to the ELCA so I guess that qualifies as liberal, main line. I go to a suburban church, so we have a pretty wide range of political viewpoints, from Tea Party participants to holdovers from the civil rights marches of the 60’s. I go to a Bible study where this mix is in attendance. Believe it or not, we actually have civil discussions about political issues, respect each others opinions and in the end celebrate our unity in Christ in spite of our political disagreements.
Maybe we are unusual, but this can be accomplished in any church, liberal or conservative (how I hate those labels!), It begins by everyone recognizing we are brothers and sisters in Christ over everything else.
By the way, most of the ‘socialist lefties” are ticked at Obama for selling out to the corporations! 🙂
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Last Sunday, I preached from Daniel 1 where Daniel stood up and said I will not rely on King Nebuchadnezzar for my food but I will rely on God alone. I will not compromise on that. This after God told Jeremiah in Jeremiah 28:“‘“But if any nation or kingdom will not serve this Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine, and with pestilence, declares the Lord, until I have consumed it by his hand. 9 So do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your u fortune-tellers, or your sorcerers, who are saying to you, ‘You shall not serve the king of Babylon.’ 10 For it is a lie that they are prophesying to you, with the result that you will be removed far from your land, and I will drive you out, and you will perish. 11 But any nation that will bring its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will leave on its own land, to work it and dwell there, declares the Lord.â€â€™â€
I wonder how many Christians today would follow a pagan (or contrarian) King even if God told us too. Wait, was that what Romans 13 about? Just wondering out loud. If God has called us to reach these people, we yield our rights to which Government we like.
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Rush Limbaugh said a few days ago that Obama tanked the economy on purpose, as “payback” for our national history of racism.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/07/rush-limbaugh-obama-creat_n_637716.html
I’m not sure, but wasn’t Bush at the helm when the banks crashed in October 2008? Or has that been re-written (Oceania is at war with Eastasia; Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia)?
Limbaugh also said, ” I think we face something we’ve never faced before in the country — and that is, we’re now governed by people who do not like the country, who do not have the same reverence for it that we do. Our greatest threat (and this is saying something) is internal.”
Is Limbaugh listening to Stanley? Or the other way around? Will the real patriots please stand up?
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We had this discussion last Sunday at church as I was staffing the table in the chancel, getting signatures for an act which would keep illegal aliens from using public services at the request of the Family Council, a Christian organization which led the fight to keep gays from adopting foster kids here.
Obama-style socialism is the gravest threat to Christianity today, no doubt. Charity should be voluntary, not forced. Taking my money to pay for, for example, someone else’s health care violates the 10th commandment.
It is no coincidence that the greatest Christian nation in the world is also a leader in capitalism. The emphasis is on the individual, whether it be accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior or working hard to make money and be successful.
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There just aren’t as many labor unions as in the past, and the ones that remain have fewer members. They certainly still have political clout and influence over their members.
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Kyle, you make many good points here. These are things that so many of us forget and ignore. I know one of my great-great-great grandparents was wanted for murdering Indians while a treaty was in effect. Later he was pardoned because of his Revolutionary War service.
There are many dark blotches in our history. We aren’t innocents in any way. How we can label ourselves a historically Christian nation is beyond me.
I love this country but we must always remember where our supreme allegiance lies.
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This is so frustrating. I am utterly sick of the shameful America-worship that permeates so many churches in this country. I am no fan of socialism and describe my political beliefs as being somewhere between conservative and libertarian, but the church needs to step back and look at itself instead of blaming the government.
I would love for this to be a country where churches work together to feed the hungry, clothe the homeless, and perform other functions with passion and conviction far outstripping that of indifferent government employees. Unfortunately the church often feels like panicking and sounding the alarm instead of doing something positive themselves. And let’s not forget that the more the church insists America is a “Christian” nation, the more it’s implicitly involved in the forceful destruction of Native American land and traditions, the legal support of slavery, forced internment of innocent Japanese during WWII, and other shameful acts. I don’t want the good name of Christ shamed by this country’s mistakes.
The more time goes by, the more I feel like this country and the contemporary evangelical church is like the Israel and Judah we read about in Isaiah and Jeremiah. We are fat, bloated, complacent, and selfish, thinking we’re righteous while the less fortunate suffer. And just as with Israel, we will eventually be judged for it. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could at least live “quiet and peaceful lives” with those around us, like Paul said over and over again?
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That’s a good and rather surprising book by Babcock.
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“how labor unions were”
Uh, were?
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If 99% of the population was subsistence farming with absolutely no industry the percentages and rates might work just fine.
Which is the problem with taking verses written to a life style out of context and applying them literally to a modern lifestyle.
I was in a discussion about biblical caring for the sick a few years ago and I pointed out that 2000 years ago if you were sick and in bed about the only care anyone could give you was food and comfort. You died or got better. Today having your appendix out is a $10,000 to $20,000 two day bill. Not the same situation at all. I think I’d rather have the bill than the comfort as I died from a ruptured appendix.
Anyone want to go live in mud huts with dirt floors to get back to an authentic 1st century Christian life?
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As well as the first one 🙂
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That second paragraph was spot on
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At the Orthodox church I visited there was no mention of the 4th and it was refreshing since I come from an Assembly of God church that spends well over $20,000 on an outreach full of fireworks, patriotic music, big music names and everything else that celebrates us being Americans. One possible redeeming factor I guess would be that it’s hugely emphasized that in Christ alone is true freedom. I know many would see this as a good exploit but I could think of so many other ways that money could be invested into the lives of people to show the love of God and lead people into discipleship instead of having a thousand people ‘make a decision’ and those people are never seen after that night again.
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To me, the main intrinsic problem with Socialism is its overcentralization of authority and the large bureaucratic overhead needed to administer all the Great Society programs. Bureaucracies are Lawful Neutral by nature, and with the Fall factored in Lawful Neutral can slip imperceptibly into Lawful Evil in its effect. Overcentralization easily leads to a “One Size Fits All” mentality, with “good” measured by what is the most advantageous/convenient to the bureaucrats running everything.
Though socialism is not dictatorial or autocratic per se (except for the Little Tin God attitude among bureaucrats), a lot of Extreme Socialist countries — what used to be called Communists — were and are dictatorships. The overcentralization is tempting for any wannabe God-King or Fuehrer — just knock over the capital with all its centralized control organs and you’ve got the entire country by the short hairs.
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At St Boniface, the only two concessions to July 4th were a mention of it in the homily and the use of “America” (i.e. “O Beautiful, for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain…”) as the recessional hymn. Other than that, it was basically X Sunday in Ordinary Time.
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And thus perhaps more committed to the idea than those whose participation requires the state’s coercion. Just a thought. 🙂
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And I’ve heard prosperity Capitalist-for-Christ types denounce Socialism because of its glorification and justification of Envy. (i.e. “You’ve got more than me! I Denounce You!”)
Last time I looked, both Greed and Envy were listed among the Seven Deadly Sins.
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I find this idea of holding up countries that actively persecute Christians (and I mean like the Nazis did the Jews) as “The Church there is more Vibrant, more Focused on the Gospel,” i.e. More Christian than us. Usually combined with a denunciation of Spoiled Rotten Soft Americans.
(Aside: Reminds me of the denunciations of Soft Spoiled Americans you used to get all through Cold War-era issues of Guns & Ammo or Soldier of Fortune.)
Can God only be glorified under North Korean conditions? Where we bury half our children before age six from starvation or disease? Where a woman is a breeding machine dropping a kid every nine months just so one or two of them will live to adulthood? Where we die of old age at 30? Where a crust of bread is worth killing over? Where a God-King with a hair up his ass about Christians orders the entire apparatus of a totalitarian state to send all Christians into the camps and up the chimneys?
Can God only be glorified if His people live under Third World Hellhole conditions?
Does God want His people crushed under the jackboot of Third World Hellhole conditions?
Does God like to see His people’s face with Big Brother’s boot stamping on it until The End?
Here in America, we’ve achieved a society where one of the biggest problems of the poor is OBESITY. Think about it. A society whose poor are Too Fat. Whose medical care (though still needing improvement) is better than anything that came before. A society with more individual liberty and equality than any other in history. Kim Jong-Il and Baba Saddam are what’s NORMAL throughout history — we’re the freaks! Compared to all the others, we’re Star Trek’s Federation!
In the Fifties, American Cultural Imperialism was based around the idea of uplifting the other peoples of the world up to these standards of wealth and liberty. (It might not have worked that way, but that was the popular idea.) That’s what fictional Bright Futureslike Original Star Trek implied. Do Christians really want to go on record (or sound like it) of throwing all this away? Why can’t God be glorified in an abundant way of life?
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In all fairness, I probably couldn’t criticize Obama in a liberal, main-line protestant church. It cuts both ways, with little freedom in the middle.
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Economic socialism is not a threat to the Christian faith. In fact, “socialism” as an economic principle can be seen in some parts of Scripture (just like capitalism). I think Charles Stanley just overdoes it here.
What is the REAL threat to the Christian faith these days? The effeminate theology that is promoted in many mainline churches today. Inclusivistic soteriologies, the condoning of homo-erotic behavior among the clergy and laity, and watering-down of the inspiredness of Scripture. These are the real threats to Christianity today.
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I also find the poster with the nosy socialist inspectors ironic. I have been in several churches which felt like ideological fishbowls, where disagreeing with politically-conservative pundits was equal to blasphemy. Religious freedom is becoming a misnomer: am I free to openly worship? Yes. Am I free to call myself a Christian that disagrees with republicans, Limbaugh, Fox News, and tea-partiers? Hmmm. The government won’t come after me, but the church might. All the accusations of how labor unions were used as political tools fifty years ago seem to be true of churches today.
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Around ten years ago, there was this one Atheist blog (lost in the mists of time) that posited that the US was a Christian nation yet not a Christian Nation (TM), and the combination was one of the best possible for the country’s history. Here’s his argument, as best I remember it:
America is a Christian nation in the sense that the largest chunk of its population self-identify as Christian in some way. This means there is a general Christian consensus regarding public morality, behavior, and ethics.
However, none of the actual Christian denominations are large or powerful enough to force THEIR specific type of Christianity, their specific Doctrine or Dogma on the country. In that respect, America is NOT a Christian Nation.
And the combination works — or at least used to work — pretty well. General Christian consensus of right and wrong, no specific church or doctrine dominant. Kind of chaotic, but preserving individual liberty within a general consensus instead of enforcing a One True Way.
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Over at ever-reliable culture-war news source, Christian Post, is a report on Charles Stanley’s “sobering 4th of July message about a dangerous spiritual tide that is engulfing the country.â€
According to Pastor Stanley, the tide that is sweeping in is socialism.
Sounds a LOT like the “Urgent Christian Political Action Newsletters (TM)” that keep piling up in my spam folder. You know the type — ‘IF YOU DON’T TAKE THE FOLLOWING POLITICAL ACTION (AND TITHE US MONEY), IT WILL BE THE END OF CHRISTIANITY IN AMERICA! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! OBAMA! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! PERSECUTION!” etc etc etc. Usually with an indirect “OBAMA IS A COMMUNIST!/OBAMA IS A MUSLIM!/OBAMA IS THE ANTICHRIST!” angle.
You can watch the message online here.The remedy he proposed is that God’s people devote themselves to pray for twenty weeks—140 days—asking God to supernaturally change the direction in which our country is going.
Wasn’t there something similar going around just before the November 2008 general elections? I remember a Republican-talking-point Call To Prayer that got discussed on this very blog back then.
At least he didn’t ask us to join the Tea Party.
That’s for the next Urgent Christian Political Action sermon. God’s Will…
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Chaplain Mike,
Thanks for this post. I did not see Pastor Stanley’s ‘sermon’ but heard about it from two men at church. Both were very complimentary of the topic, but inwardly I cringed- not because of a desire for a view of patriotism which incorporates freedom of religion as a right of the people; rather, because from my understanding of this message, this does not focus us on being people of the kingdom of God and living as such.
Prior to the last Presidential election, I presented a sermon that called us to live in submission to authority (1 Peter 2). My point was that regardless of the outcome of the election, we are called to live Christ-in-us. One of the two men who loved Charles Stanley’s sermon was quite upset with me after hearing this message on submission to authority and was quite vocal to me. Perhaps had I called down fire from heaven on the Democratic Party I would have been cheered instead.
I realize sermons similar to Pastor Stanley’s are in vogue with many, but I’m afraid I’m not one who agrees with him on this issue.
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Still better than “Marching Through Georgia.”
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Compassion is what Christians show to their neighbors – not a service provided by a religious institution.
that being the case, the MOST important issue is not which peice of legislation, or form of government helps or hurts us in this lifestyle of Christlikeness, but WILL WE DO IT ? Will we love others in the midst of whatever form of government we have, including those evil ___________ add your vile category H_E_R_E_____ , or will we squabble about what our current form of gov’t will or will not let us do…..like pray (cue the eye roll…..as if a law could keep anyone from praying..) Largely, we are fighting the wrong battles, searching for the wrong kingdom, and whining about things that are important, but far from essential.
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America never was a “Christian†nation.
Oh MY…..she said it out loud !! Yes, this is the dirty little not-so-secret that is still waiting to be discovered by millions (depending on how you define “christian nation”; and Babcock does a good job of giving us some popular meanings of the phrase) How someone could carefully read the NT and then come to the conclusion that ANY nation’s agenda other than 1) the church and 2)Israel (this could be debated) means all that much to the christian GOD is just beyond me.
But for those who hold to this agenda: that GOD has a special plan for the USA that puts it in a special category….well , those folks will be crafting Memorial day and Independence Day sermons like the subject of today’s post till the Tribulation….and maybe after… 🙂 let’s get more sacred cows dancing on top of the flag pole…..
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Is it the church’s responsibility to provide social welfare programs? This is a tricky separation of church and state issue. In our state, we recently saw a referendum to remove property tax-exempt status from churches narrowly go down to defeat. One of the arguments against taxing churches was that churches provide social programs. This really concerned me, because suddenly the church became a defacto wing of government; once it stopped providing entitlement-style services, it would become irrelevant and fair game for taxation. The whole concept of separation of kingdoms has been lost. For this, I blame the religious right and their war against the separation of church and state.
In essence, the church has surrendered the definition of ecclesiology to secular culture, largely in-part because the church itself has no idea why it exists. Compassion is what Christians show to their neighbors – not a service provided by a religious institution. The primary tasks of the church – as I see it – is to seek and save the lost and to equip the saints through the proclamation of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments. The church should never have started offering social services to get the unchurched to come inside; rather, it should have equipped and sent the saints out the front door into their respective neighborhoods, their Judeas and Samarias, and to the ends of the earth to bear Jesus to the world. I once read that the latin word “mass” means “to depart”. I think we have lost that concept of gathering in order to be scattered.
Even with Christians showing compassion to their neighbors, there will still be a need for social programs. I don’t think this responsibility should be placed on churches. But social services should not attempt to end all hardship or make everyone “happy”. They should be emergency services. Much government welfare goes to corporations; that might be a good place to start reform.
When I see churches being used as propaganda mouthpieces for both left and right-wing politics, I think we have already crossed the threshold into socialism.
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Greg, I agree that Babcock’s book is a great book, too, and one that people on the far right who believe Pastor Boyd is “too liberal” will be more willing to read.
Pastor Boyd’s book was the first book that made me realize how deeply and insidiously I had allowed my faith and my patriotism to be conflated. No more of that.
America never was a “Christian” nation. This is just run-of-the-mill alarmist nonsense.
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before you dive into Christian Patriot week, we need to find you some decent Kevlar , Chap Mike, and maybe a Humvee to type from…… I’ll pass the hat/helmet to get this started.
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you mean…..like….love EVERYBODY for Christ’s sake ????? even SOCIALISTS ?? oh, well….OK…
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and which political “news” show is getting DVR-ed…
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Voluntary socialists, not Statist ones.
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Yeah, a welfare state running on a 3 1/3 % tax.
That’ll really work.
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I keep hearing about the wonderful persecuted Church that exists under Communist oppression. When the USSR fell, I watched for this Fire-baptized Refined Spiritually dymanic Body of Russian Christians to come to the surface and teach the world what they learned.
Still waiting.
And call me comfort-loving & shallow but I’ll gladly trade off some spiritual depth for the ability to live & worship freely without having to worry about being beaten or imprisoned for my faith. I know it’s a luxury that many believers in the world have no inkling of. I’ll be the last one to suggest that we maintain or even expand that shadow of fear & terror so that Christians can be more vibrant. I didn’t see Christ encouraging it either. In fact, He encouraged His people to flee, to shake the dust off their feet, to… shrug. *G*
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In modern-day churchianity, the role of the innkeeper in the parable of the Good Samaritan gets left out. That is, if I see a man lying on the side of the interstate, and I stop, put him in my car, and drive him to the hospital, then I would be called a Good Samaritan. But what if had to foot the hospital bill, too, just like the Samaritan paid the innkeeper with a promise to pay any extra? So I take the guy to the hospital and leave him, feeling good about myself. But if the hospital required payment up front, I would object. “I can’t afford that!” So the innkeeper gets replaced by the government.
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My house church took a “worldview” assessment quiz, or something like that. I forgot where I scored, but each question supposedly had Biblical answers to it. Each answer came with Bible verses to back up the answer, except for one: capitalism vs. social-communism. When my pastor read that the right worldview was capitalism, I asked for the Bible verses backing that up. I support capitalism, of course, but I wanted to know the quizmaker’s reasoning. He didn’t cite any Scripture. I smirked. On further discussion, we came to the conclusion that social-communism without force or coercion is called: giving! 🙂
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Yeah, if you can set up a socialist system with a 10% maximum tax, with a third of that delegated to the poor”
Sounds suspiciously like a welfare state to me.
That 10% max tax is how they get you.
/zionist conspiracy
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You’re not missing anything. It is alarmist nonsense at best. At worst, it might also be considered a scare tactic to rally the troops and support. You’d almost think that Jesus never promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against his kingdom. Then again, I’m not sure what’s being discussed is really the right kingdom at all. Cue my lately adopted anti-culture-war mantra: wrong kingdom, wrong kingdom, wrong kimgdom.
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Jesus told a story about a Samaritan who took care of a Jew in need. Was he worried about Samaritans taking over and controlling Jewish life? Or was the point to say that Samaritans should stop doing the job of someone else?
I think he was saying that it is the job of the religious Jewish community, and even Samaritans (or governments in the current day) are doing that job. Not that we need to get the Samaritans to stop helping so that the Jewish community can then start to take care of the needy.
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PL above asked:
Whose Kingdom are we ultimately part of, anyway?
Excellent question that gets at the core of this…. the confusion over all of this is a confusion of understanding what the Kingdom is and is not. This deserves a separate Christian Patriots week, IMO, because the confusion around this is thicker than black powder smoke after a civil war reinactment.
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Independence Day is my favorite holiday, and I welcome and relish the opportunity to celebrate the birth of this great country, sing our wonderful patriotic songs, and honor those who sacrified their lives for our freedom. But I usually skip church on the Sunday that falls nearest this holiday. “Idolatry” is the word that comes to mind when a church sanctuary becomes the place for patriotic fanfare and patriotic songs, most of which have little or nothing to do with the Gospel.
So several weeks ago, I volunteered for nursery duty for the July 4 Sunday, thinking I would miss all the fanfare, topped off by the expected “America is Going To Hell in a Handbasket” sermon. But I was fooled! The Sunday before that, we had a guest preacher who delivered that exact sermon. I kept waiting for him to marginally redeem his message by mentioning Jesus (remember that guy?), but it didn’t happen. In the two years I’ve been at this church, this is the first sermon I’ve heard that wasn’t Jesus-focused, and certainly the first that had no mention of Jesus. There were lots of mentions of socialism, though, and of how “change” is not what we want or need.
I could have stayed home and watched Glenn Beck, if I’d wanted to hear such a “sermon.”
Oh well. At least no one sang the “Proud to Be An American” solo, complete with the entire church standing up in unison when “I’ll stand up …” is sung.
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“Most political sermons teach the congregations nothing except what newspapers are taken at the rectory.” -C. S. Lewis
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I don’t get too exercised over preachers who use the latest cultural boogey man to satisfy itching ears. G.K. Chesterton observed that the faith has not only often died but it has often died of old age. While it may seem to many that USA Christianity has become a hollow shell, Christ is relentless in bringing his bride to himself in a manner which is providential, victorious, and perhaps most poignant, unexpectedly. “A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
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Yeah, if you can set up a socialist system with a 10% maximum tax, with a third of that delegated to the poor. And with every able-bodied citizen as a member of the citizens’ militia.
Hmmm- sounds closer to Libertarian Paradise.
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How ironic is it for a Southern Baptist to sing “The Battle Hymn of the Republic”?
Not saying you or your church are SBC, but it would still be quite ironic were one to do so. 🙂
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Acts 2:45 “Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need.”
Sounds like the early Christians were SOCIALISTS to me. 🙂
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Glen Beck sounds like the preachers & now the preachers sound like Glen Beck. ;-(
We Shall overcome! peace
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The State “usually” provides more than the average church program. So what if the Church makes a State-run institution less hellish for old people? Why doesn’t your church take in some of those old people? or those foster kids?
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Hmmm…. I’m not sure exactly what the “christian spirit in America” is, but if it is indeed spiritual, then it can’t be squashed or even controlled. Did Paul really fear Rome, or the Sanhedrin for that matter, did he feel his abiblity to worship could be taken away ??
I’m all for free speech and freedom to worship (politically) , but I’m thinking our greatest ememies are elsewhere…..saw one in the mirror this morning (scarey dude…..)
Greg R
PS: as others have posted, this kind of frothy tirade plays well to the home boys, and makes for a fine rallying cry, full of energy and alarm.
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God didn’t show up at our church on July 4th. The choir put on a prepackaged, super patriotic slide show, for which they were the soundtrack. (Thanks Lifeway)
I was as uncomfortable this year as I was last year when everyone stood up to a slide show of our troops, in various acts of “defending” our god given rights, featuring Lee Greenwood’s “I’m Proud to be an American”.
The sad thing is, most of the congregation expected a service like this and didn’t even miss the point that we weren’t worshiping God the Father.
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Although it might be anathema to some, I’d have to agree with FDR on this one, that the real problem is fear itself.
“Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread . . .” (Isa. 8:12-13)
On fear and the credulous responses to it:
http://disjournal.blogspot.com/2010/05/what-would-jesus-bark-and-other-tidbits.html
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Michael Babcock’s “Unchristian America” (a Liberty U. faculty member, surprise, surprise) is worth looking at as well.
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Chaplain Mike:
Pandering is still pandering, regardless of the arena. All these alarmists forget (or choose to forget) that the church is God’s vehicle to implement his plan. The New Testament has not revealed to me that he had a Plan B in his back pocket. Our relationship with God, through Christ, does not depend on where we live or what political systems we are governed by.
Paul W
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Good push-back. This was not meant to be a pro-socialism post. There is a lot of room to debate the respective roles of individuals, communities, churches, and governments with regard to providing assistance and care for those who need it. I’m sure it takes all of the above, and more.
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This is simply another example of angst-inducing preacher rant on the subject of Trouble in River City. I can’t help think much of this is not so much iron-clad belief, but rather playing to the base. This is America and that will always remain one of our Heinz 57 varieties of modern Protestant form.
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IM recommended.
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Greg Boyd’s “The Myth of a Christian Nation” addresses this topic very well.
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There were definite elements of representative democracy within and between the different tribes during the period of the judges — that is, when they weren’t united under a sort of temporary military dictatorship in times of war and crisis. In fact, some historians credit the Jews rather than the Greeks as the originators of democracy. But, from Mosses to the end of the Hasmonian monarchs, the Jews experimented with a lot of different forms of government. Aspects of democracy, socialism, militarism, theocracy, limited monarchy, absolute monarchy, and even balances of power between different governmental branches can be found at some point in their history as a nation. Their flexibility in regards to government and social order is probably one reason that, after their destruction as a nation by the Romans, the Jews managed to maintain their cultural and religious identity as a people within the context of other nations and empires. You might say they learned the trick of viewing politics and nationality as transitory things to either be endured or embraced, while at the same time viewing religion and cultural tradition as things to be preserved regardless of the political or social environment. Unfortunately, Chrisitans have had the bad habit of throwing religion, politics, and patriotism together in the same pot since Constantine perfected that recipee in the fourth century.
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Whose Kingdom are we ultimately part of, anyway?
I find it interesting that some of the most authentic, vibrant Christian communities on the planet exist in oppressed, totalitarian countries. In the Land Of The Free? Maybe not so much.
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While I don’t agree with combining nationalism with Christianity, I do dissent from many of the comments. Yes, the church is to take care of widows, feed the hungry and care for prisoners. In a socialist system, the state does those things. What then happens to the church? Part of its mission is subsumed by the state. So people stop giving to the church. People stop seeing the church as a social good, having nothing to contribute that the state doesn’t already do. So in Europe, where socialism is the norm, the church flounders. Giving is tiny. Instead, the U.S. was founded on the idea that the safety net is not the state, but the individual himself, then one’s family, then one’s church, then one’s local community, then, finally, the state. Since FDR, that has been turned upside down, so that many perfectly able people live off the state.
Is this a threat to the church? Yes. When we replace individual responsibility and the church’s responsibility to care for people with state programs, then we are on the slippery slope to amorality.
If the church is not doing its job, the solution is not to relegate those duties to the state. Instead, it is to call the church to its original social purpose.
In addition, when the state creates these programs, it gains more power to regulate our lives. When the state is responsible for paying for my health care, it assumes the right to tell me what I can and can’t do with regard to my health. Am I irresponsible when it comes to my health? No. But that doesn’t mean I want the state to be able to tell me what I can and can’t eat.
Do I agree with Pastor Stanley? I really can’t stand the guy. But does he have a point? Probably.
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I think Rev. Stanley (who I have often listened to with great profit) and others like him should look to places like China, a country whose communist system is far to the left of any sort of socialism Obama and his soulmates dream of, and where, as a consequence, Christians do not have as easy a life as most us in the West (including the US and Europe) do.
The church there is more vibrant, more focused on the essentials of the gospel.
Is this something to be feared or something to be desired?
Of course our way of life may change — but in view of worldwide poverty and increasing threats to the natural environment by unrestrained capitalism (exemplified by the Gulf disaster which apparently was caused by a “small” carelessness in the interest of minimizing expense and maximizing profit) maybe our way of life needs to change, whether we are Christians or not.
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I just read of a Christian Radio station dropping its support of a local music festival because Jim Wallis was speaking there. They had a link to this article on their Facebook — and apparently didn’t see the problem.
I kind of dread when Independence Day and Memorial Day come along. It’s got nothing to do with celebrating the country’s independence, certainly not commemorating those who defend the country (in fact, I’d do better to spend both days with my WWII veteran Grandfather). It has more to do with the annual “America’s going down the tubes” sermons in church and on the air, the linking of America to God’s will, and the constant misuse of 2 Chronicles 7:14. No, this is not the worst time in the country’s history. No, God is not going to magically put a Republican (or a better Democrat if you’re left-leaning) in office if you repent. I’ve heard Charles Stanley before and think he’s a good preacher. That said, this is some painfully short-sighted stuff.
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Or for that matter, Acts 2:44-46 and 4:32-37.
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I wish Rev. Stanley good luck in his attempts to keep Franklin Roosevelt from being elected President. 😉
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This is stupid alarmist nonsense.
It plays well to the members of the religious right who have forgotten their first love and chased after the political right.
As economic systems go, I think that capitalism is the bigger threat to the faith, because of its glorification and justification of greed.
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In many ways the social parts of the Mosaic code would make a good starting point for anyone looking to set up a socialist government.
(Posting here with an iPhone can be interesting )
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In my limited bible knowledge it seems to me that from the time of Moses until Jesus the Jews had a socialist or semi-socialist governmental setup. At least during the times they were following the law.
It was certainly NOT a representative democracy.
Hec
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My personal view is that the average citizen (even many Christians) in the U.S. has slowly replaced God with Government. Hurricane destruction? Government should have saved us People need healing? Health care for all. Terrorists attack you? Call out the drones. Weather changing? Government!
Even though we were pretty lousy at being a “Christian” nation, we at least had an implicit acknowledgement in word and thought that there was an ompnipotent God in charge. When we decided that we could no longer acknowledge that….well the human need for God had to go somewhere. So here we are looking to government to do more and more for us.
Trouble is, it’s expensive. It will bankrupt us. Europe has been through their own version of this and it’s bankrupting them right in front of our eyes.
But to the question at hand…yes Socialism/Communism/etc. can definitely be bad news for the cause of Christ. Is it easier to start a New Testament church in China? Europe? The U.S.?
But is it the end of the world? Nah. In the end, the very gates of hell will not prevail against the church. But it would be nice to avoid the human cost of some of these governments that are hostile to religion, and the sidestep inevitable collapse of Government-as-God.
It’s all part of the fallen world. The pastor is right to point out that some possible impending political situations are hostile to Christ. But I think running to the flag is not the answer. Running to the Cross is where he should be going.
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We got pretty much the same sermon at our local independent evangelical church, Knowing it was coming, though, I stayed home and watched it on live streaming so I could run for the head if I felt the urge to toss my cookies.
Which I almost did when the pastor got to the part about 4 Native Americans, 3 of them Nez Perce, who went east seeking the “black book” (a.k.a. the Bible). Given the travesty of how the church in this country has treated Native Americans, all in the name of assimilation and/or genecide (that is, “Christianizing the heathen savages”), I’d heard enough. I didn’t turn it off, but I don’t think I really heard anything after that.
All of which is why I consider the 4th of July to be the most idolatrous day on the evangelical calendar.
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pretty much any church that puts the Flag ahead of the cross is apostate.
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I am shocked–SHOCKED–to learn that some clergyman somewhere has said something foolish or unbalanced.
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Chaplain Mike . . . no you are missing nothing.
I keep thinking that the days of evangelical nonsense is over, until you share something like this. I haven’t seen Stanley in years, but I thought he was a little more mainstream than Pat Robinson, but maybe I was wrong. If this is the state of mainstream Evangelicalism in America, then I guess I still have things to be grieved about.
Of course the problem is the pure and simple gospel has been enshrouded (in this country) in Americanism and the political right interpretation of Americanism to be precise. It is always a terrible thing to mix the gospel with ANYTHING. With Amyway, with YEC, with Republicanism or Democratism or you name it. You can of course even argue in favor of Christian socialism if you want. Did not the early church share all things in common?
That is what we should really, really be afraid of is Jesus +_____________ .
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Where in the bible is a political or economic system recommended? I can’t remember. They are all flawed in one way or another, capitalism no exception.
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well said Isaac, well said
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If turning toward socialism is turning away from God, does that mean the more capitalist I am the more Godly? That’s interesting, because it places mammon and God in the same place. We are seeing in the Gulf what happens when profit becomes the ultimate measure of goodness.
Show me a church that can afford to pay for poor people’s chemo treatments and I’ll show you a church where someone is already planning a new family-life center 🙂
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Do they? Around here, the state-run nursing homes are just places to shove the old and unwanted until they finally die. There’s no attempt at pretense. You’re shoved in a heartless, barren jail cell of a room and unless you’re lucky enough to have family, you’re left to the mercy of staff who don’t give a damn about you. If it weren’t for church outreach, those places would be pure hell. Not too long ago, some children in local foster care turned up dead – seems the case workers just never noticed the screaming red flags. I’m not buying into the culture war fears of socialism. But I’m also not buying into the idea of the State being the better provider. The State deals in programs and institutions. Not with individuals.
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I absolutely LOVE my church and really, really, really respect our rector. In fact, he’s one of the few preachers that can actually point out connections in the text that I’ve never seen before. I also love my country. I’m a proud American who has no problems singing the Star Spangled Banner or the Battle Hymn of the Republic, or whatever.
But this Sunday’s service was pretty rough. Combining Independence Day and the Eucharist made me very uncomfortable. Even though the patriotic songs all nod toward God, they’re not about Him; they’re about America. The Prayers of the People were replaced with Prayers for our Nation. Our usually Bible-centered priest (an Anglican who has ushers pass out bibles to those who want to follow along) didn’t crack open Scripture once in his sermon. To his credit, our priest did conclude his message admonishing us to not put our trust in America, but rather put it in Jesus. That said, the homily was about “America’s Christian Heritage,” the religion of the Founding Fathers, and the way today’s mainstream media is allegedly distorting history rather than about Jesus and the gospel.
I respect that many American Christians are patriotic. Heck, so am I. But sometimes the combination of religion and patriotism smacks of idolatry. In fact, as i study Church History, it seems that most of Christianity’s major problems come from using religion to baptize politics.
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like Socialism?
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What should the Church do? Take care of widows? The State provides Social Security and Medicare. Feed the hungry? The State provides food stamps. House the homeless? The State has public housing.
Sure, these programs may not be great. But they usually provide more than the average church program.
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I naively thought the enemy to be feared was Satan/sin/death.
Go figure.
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I think he’s on to something when it comes to praying for our country. But Socialism being a spiritual evil? If it’s any kind of evil, and I don’t think it is, it would be political. Faith, being apolitical, shouldn’t be effected by a more equal distribution of wealth or free market capitalism or anything of the sort. But whatever. I pretty much ignore stuff like that, even from John Piper, who I am a HUGE fan of.
It’s just there to advance a personal agenda, in my opinion. Not even alarmist.
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Something I’ve seen over and over in the evangelical church are pastors who feel they need to come up with something shocking to say in order to get attention. Why? Probably because the attention makes them feel relevant and important. If they play on people’s fears then they will get more people to show up at church and prayer meetings.
I admit there was a time when something like this would have alarmed me and sent me to prayer meetings–but no more. If the tide of the country is going to turn it’s going to be done by people. Honestly, when has God ever stepped in supernaturally to change the tide of a country? He allows a people to reap what they sow. And He gives plenty of wisdom for the asking.
This isn’t about Christianity–I vote alarmist nonsense.
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I’m a card carrying evangelical and as orthodox as you can get (Nicene Creed, etc.). I love Jesus and the Word. But my reaction to this is…………………….yawn. I’m so tired of it I pay it no mind.
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Socialism is a complex economic system. It is not a war against Jesus. I need some more evidence here.
I would love to think that there is any public figure in America that knew the definition of the word “socialism.”
How about this? A capitalist, socialist, and communist agreed to meet to discuss their differences. At the arranged time, the communist and the capitalist arrived, but they waited some time for the socialist. Finally he ran up, panting. “Sorry I’m late, guys,” he gasped. “I was in a queue for sausages.” “What’s a queue?” asked the capitalist. “What’s a sausage?” asked the communist.
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Hadn’t we better watch what we pray for, as we just might get it? Of course, as Isaiah reminds us, God’s ways are not our ways, so when we pray as Dr. Stanley counsels, we have no idea if or how God will answer. I advise every disciple of Jesus to pray for our leaders and our country daily. We just change names when someone new gets elected whether we agree with his/her politics or not.
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I am not and American. I am not in America. I am however, shaking my head. Growing up and living in a state that started as a socialist experiment I have no idea what the issue is. I am interested in the responses. The sky has not fallen here and our community has not spiraled into heathen depravity…yet.
My vote is alarmist nonsense.
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