Driscoll, Masculinity, and the Missional Church

255 thoughts on “Driscoll, Masculinity, and the Missional Church”

1. A little late, but nonetheless:

   Word to the bronies 😉

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2. I find it interesting that the main characters of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic present six different archetypes of “how to be a girl”, yet Driscoll (and through representation, God) seems to have only one archetype of “how to be a man”, i.e. “I Can Beat You Up.”

   Women to him are glorified breeding machines who should have one foot in the kitchen and the other meeting the sexual needs of their husbands. Barbaric is what it is.

   Or “Shari’a”?

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3. Macho-Jesus would have come to earth & beat the HELL out of us!!!!

   Just like in Left Behind Volume 12.

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4. Paul,

   I could not agree with your more on what you wrote. It’s like we ahve to be two different people. The guy at church and the guy at home. Two diiferent guys

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5. …there was quite a current of 19th century English Protestant polemic about the dangers of Romanism including a conspiracy to sap and impurify all the precious Anglo-Saxon bodily fluids by creeping feminisation…

   THAT is straight out of Dr Strangelove. Precious Bodily Fluids…

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6. I think what can be harmful to men about stuff like this is that they seem to preach about one way to be a “manly man.” How limiting.

   Sort of like the ideal of the “proverbs 31 woman” that is constantly being preached at women.

   The current reboot of My Little Pony has six ways to be a girl, from take-charge Applejack to cocky and brash Rainbow Dash to nerdy Twilight Sparkle to timid and nurturing Fluttershy. Driscoll has only one way to be a man and the Proverbs 31 types have only one way to be a woman. It’s not something to brag about when My Little Pony trumps the Body of Christ.

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7. And besides, Extreme Islam can trump Driscoll for Hypermasculinity any day. What happens when you want your Hypermasculinity straight on the rocks?

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8. If we are going to be inclusive we need to include the “warrior class” in our church culture as well. Has anyone ever seen the movie (Mini-Series) Masada about the group of Jewish people held up in the fortress city Masada because of the blood lust of the Roman empire?
   Anyways you had all of these different Jews held up together in one place with one reason and purpose. There were many different worldviews within the walls of Masada and it was interesting how important the “warrior class” was during a time of self defense and fear. It seems odd to me that a guy like Driscoll who has been openly critical of himself, his faults and failures and publicly repentant is still the target of so much ire from those who have been raised in a different culture or see things different. I might not agree with some of the cloaked fundamentalism Driscol carries but I think he is being genuine and missional. If we are going to be consistent with our inclusive paradigm we should look at him as you want him to look at you. Just like Canada might not enjoy Americas attitude or candor they love American Navy. I appreciate your post Mike no better way to gain the context of a guy like Driscoll than to listen to where he comes from.
   This is a complex issue.

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9. Pingback: Weekly Meanderings | Jesus Creed

10. * Does he have a point about the “feminization” of the church? Are church organizations, buildings, programs, ministries, worship styles, preaching styles, etc., focused more toward women and children than they should be?

    Over all, I do not believe he has a point. While it is a concern that needs to be addressed in places, I believe that a healthy understanding of masculinity & it’s place in the culture & church, is far more significant an issue. In the end, I actually believe that Driscoll is contributing to the problem through his emphasis. The answer is not to reduce the freedom or place of women (or children), but to discover the place men have alongside them- NOT above them.

    * Has the church been ignoring men and failing to call them to repentance for sins of immaturity, immorality, and irresponsibility?

    Yes, through the perpetuating of damaging patriarchy.

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11. Okay, I understand his background and what informs his position, but as I read it, I couldn’t help but think that Driscoll’s perception is skewed. I wonder did that ever occur to him as he was searching for a church? Sometimes we can’t just look outward and see what’s wrong with everyone else. We need to look inward and allow the Lord to show us what’s wrong with us; how we’ve been shaped and effected by our environments and consider the fact that we may be overreacting. Just because a pastor cries during a sermon doesn’t mean’s he’s soft. That’s a man, in my mind, whose passionate and feels what he’s preaching. Hunting and living in the woods is the sign of masculinity? Wow….

    I understand being driven by coming out of a poor neighborhood and seeing men abuse their families, but I know other pastors who are also reaching out to inner city men and they are not denigrating women to do it. Oddly enough, the way Driscoll preaches, he in effect is being as abusive to others as he accuses the “thugs” of being, just in a different way.

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12. My grandmother always worked outside of the home, and she actually made more money than my grandfather.

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13. Thanks for the link. I just finished listening to Fr. Behr and feel greatly encouraged. Most of the common evangelical treatments of male/female issues tend to discourage me. I’ll listen to this a few more times and look for more of Fr. Behr’s work. Again, thanks.

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14. No argument from me about them being crap, or that their theology is crap. 🙂

    My husband and I have often commented that it’d be nice if the beginning of service was silence, instead of “Hey, how you doin’?!” right before the service. It would make it easier to get into a worshipful frame of mind.

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15. Sorry, my response to your comment was a little snippy.

    It isn’t just the evangelical church who sticks their head in the sand. This whole world is going to hell, but most people want to turn a blind eye. The disease of sin is rampant and none of us are clean. Men/women/everybody is dirty.

    We want to divide the world up between good&bad, victims&perps. Truth is we are all screwed up by others and we all screw up others. I have never committed a legal crime but in truth I am no better than the cons I’ve minstered to. And they aren’t evil (or they are but no more than I). They are people that sin has screwed over and so they in turn screw over others.

    The Gospel of Grace is the only way out of this mess.

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16. Dan I don’t have cable at home. But domestic violence happens both ways but I think the evangelical church acts like it doesn’t exist. And given the evangelical, conservative nature of what family is supposed to be I would suggest that there probaby is more rape, physicla abuse, etc.. in many fundgelical chruches that Christians want to admit.

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17. i have decided to attend the local Presbyterian church here in town. yes, they are PCUSA, but their stance regarding same-sex relationships/ordination very sensitive, balanced & deliberately low-key…

    they are very involved in the local college campus. they do have ‘ministry’ (programs) groups that target many of the different age groups & interests represented. but really it comes down to practicality for me: no need to reinvent the church wheel; it is within walking distance; has a college age group i want to help out with & the only church in town that has a divorce recovery class i also offered to help out with…

    my theological perspectives do not fall in line with everything they espouse, but i have noticed in small ways that what is being preached/represented by the senior pastor & the associates that what they are saying is a more generous orthodoxy than i had expected. so, yes, a positive experience i had in the brief time i have attended…

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18. I’ve found M. Spencer’s words about the activity of Jesus in ‘small pockets’ and in everyday life to be very liberating reg. looking for ‘the right church’. You’ve probably arlready got a copy, but maybe now is a good time to read (reread) Mere Churchianity. Unsolicited blather: hope you don’t mind.

    GregR
    I think I might well be on the way out of Vineyard fellowship sometime later this summer or early fall. Oh joy, feels like “the dating game” all over again.

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19. So… A 200 lb. woman hits you with a lamp. After you get up off the ground what are you going to do? Because if you hit her back you will go to jail. Once you do the smart thing and run away, then come back here and make fun of the statement “…much domestic violence is instigated by women.”

    When you hear the term “domestic violence” if you always picture a hulking guy slapping a helpless woman then you’ve been watching too many movies on the Lifetime Channel.

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20. “…much domestic violence is instigated by women.”

    I realize that my evidence is anecdotal, never-the-less here it is: I have spent a fair amount of time working in prison ministry at both men’s and women’s facilities. My experience is that many of these fights in homes are started by the women.

    Don’t jump on me like I’m endorsing guys hitting women or I’m minimizing the plight of women who have been abused. I’m just telling you what I have observed. Women have bragged about starting fights that they know they would lose because they know the man will pay the price via the police. Daniel Baldwin is an example of a SMART guy who didn’t hit back and therefore stayed out of jail.

    I know men bear more responsibility here because, in general, they are physically stronger. But to pretend that this is a one sided problem is wrong.

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21. He said “much” not “most.”

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22. I’ll take on the “only church left” question – at this point in life….. No! I’m already struggling with the whole church concept and just this week finally decided to wash my hands of the SBC church and move on. I never thought, as a musician and otherwise, I could be so beaten and crushed so much in church as much as I have the SBC in recent years and the last thing I need is someone else adding to it.

    At this point I know not where I will end up churchwise but I’m definitely stepping back from some things for awhile and the SBC for good……. now starts the real walk in the wilderness.

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23. The church is only doing it’s job when it reaches out to all men, regardless of their “masculinity” and brings them into a place of acceptance.

    Really liked this; good post.
    GregR

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24. Amen.

    I completely agree with Driscoll that we should be teaching men and boys how to be men, but you don’t do that from the pulpit, you do that in personal relationship. It’s like someone teaching me how to be a volleyball player by lecturing me.

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25. Seriously, Tim, there was quite a current of 19th century English Protestant polemic about the dangers of Romanism including a conspiracy to sap and impurify all the precious Anglo-Saxon bodily fluids by creeping feminisation; the churches on the Continent were full of women praying, and wearing surplices with lace trims and fancy vestments and lighting candes in English churches meant that the ministers were all effeminate and probably crypto-Jesuits as well!

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26. Oh, Lord, yes. Our school has a lot (proportionally) of kids whose families have split up or were maybe never even married in the first place. Lots of school psychologist assessment, special needs, and dealing with social workers (which is a whole ‘nother rant; if anyone on here is a social worker, I apologise, but sometimes it’s fit to tear your hair out when you’re dealing with a troubled kid and the whole run-around of ‘oh, her old caseworker left and the new one hasn’t started yet’).

    So there’s a big effort to keep kids in school, because our ones are so much at risk of dropping out, and because of circumstances, I’m kind of splitting my working time between the school (on one hand) and the early school leavers’ services (on the other).

    And boy, yeah, do I see the attitude you describe amongst the boys there once they’ve dropped out! A real struggle to get them to even sit down in the classroom, and the ones who might be beginning to benefit being held back by their peers because it’s not tough or cool to study. There’s also drugs and petty criminality involved, and it’s heart-breaking to see kids starting out on a path that you know is going to lead to them eventually doing some kind of jail time.

    It takes so much effort to catch them before they fall, but if you don’t, then you can see that ten, twenty years down the line, the same old pattern will be repeated. It’s really, as I said, depressing to look at a fifteen year old boy and know he’s got no future.

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27. Yes, but still – oh, you didn’t keep young and beautiful, so of course your husband went looking for strange?

    He tried that with my mother (God rest her), she’d have punched him in the snoot 🙂

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28. Wenathce I grabbed that quickly. Maybe what the article should be about is Mark Driscoll and timing. He has bad timing and has the knack of saying the wrong thing, at the wrong time in the wrong place. When the Ted Haggard scandal played out…was that a time to talk about women letting themself go? Part of communication skills is in the different ways information is communicated. Maybe that was not his intent, I don’t know. But when he’s charging ahead while one of Time Magazine’s ranked most infleuntial evangelicals is going down in flames maybe he should step back and consider..”Is what I am going to say help or hurt a situation? And can it be misinterpreted? “

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29. well, the grand theoretical question has not been asked yet, so i will…

    if Mars Hill Seattle was the only church left on earth to attend, would you do so???

    😀

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30. I think that the church has done a terrible job reaching men because it does not have a clear sense of what men are really about. Driscoll seems to think that all men want to hunt, kill, and be the boss; and many men do. But what men really want is much deeper. They want to be accepted. They live their entire life striving to meet a standard of masculinity set by society and taught by some churches. They’ve been raised to believe that they have to be strong, popular, have lots of friends, and be the coolest of all of those friends. Any deviance from the social standard is met by bullying in school, ridicule in college, and laughter at the job site. The church is only doing it’s job when it reaches out to all men, regardless of their “masculinity” and brings them into a place of acceptance. The church needs more than just the beefy “jock”. It needs men who are willing to turn the other cheek like Jesus did. It needs men who don’t see their masculinity as a right to power and control. And it needs men who take their faith seriously and let it seep into every area of their life. I think that the call to men isn’t any different than to women. It’s not a call to a more masculine Christianity, it’s a call to turn to Jesus and live a life following him.

    I

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31. Not sure what happened to my original comment here but the original quote with which I took issue is supposed to read “I know lots of men both believer and unbeliever who will not sit under a woman priest or pastor.”

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32. I have chosen to hide my daughters from such insidious nonsense that is masked as biblical manhood and womanhood. Driscoll and his like are a danger to the the church as much as to those outside the church. You listed all the reasons to have nothing to do with him, and you are not the least of those who have compiled the list. The New Reformers as he likes to package himself as are so different from the Puritans that it is mind blowing. There was nothing wrong with the old Calvinists. All this attention that is drawn toward himself is the result of a problem that plagues the body of Christ. We seem to crave heroes and always look for them. Heads up people! This dude is no one to emulate or adulate. Let’s get real. This guy has more in common with the world’s understanding of manhood than he does of the Scriptures. So, don’t mind me while I lock up my two daughters and guard the door. Women to him are glorified breeding machines who should have one foot in the kitchen and the other meeting the sexual needs of their husbands. Barbaric is what it is.

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33. Seriously? Did you actually read CM’s post? He was doing the exact opposite.

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34. I listened to Driscoll’s sermons pretty frequently for a little over a year, and even though his macho-man style isn’t really “my thing” and I can’t say I agree with his leadership style, the general thrust of his teaching was thoroughly Jesus-centered stuff. I don’t feel the need to defend everything the man says because I agree (and I think Driscoll would too) that he can be arrogant, flippant, and everything else. But his sermons and books served as gateway for me from trendy, emotionalistic forms of evangelicalism to the kind of theologically and liturgically robust faith promoted on this blog. So in spite of all the controversy, I want to voice my appreciation.

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35. It happens enough that I’m not convinced that it is only overstatement but it definitely fits into the category of hyperbole.

    I don’t want to discourage ministry that emphasizes masculinity as that is an important part of humanity. One of my favorite images, and I wish I could remember what commentary it came from, is of the word “meek.” I read that an image used to understand what the Bible means when it uses this term is that of a bridled stallion – the strength, passion, and wild spirit subdued by the bridle of its Master. I can get behind an image of manhood that emphasizes meekness in that vain. I imagine that Driscoll would too, but his language is just too often reckless for my blood.

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36. In that article, it says, “On another blog, Driscoll speculated on the recent election of a woman as bishop of the Episcopal Church: ‘If Christian males do not man up soon, the Episcopalians may vote a fluffy baby bunny rabbit as their next bishop to lead God’s men.’ ” If Mark DID write that, I think that is even more problematic than the other comment which may have been a bit misleading in this particular article, according to WenatcheeTheHatchet.

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37. We’ll see how this plays out at Mars Hill. A true test of real ‘manhood’, IMO, is how that “strong stuff” is handled. I don’t think Acts 15 is one of Paul’s finer moments, and I would consider the rift with Barnabas to be a minor tragedy. Yes, GOD got lots of mileage out of it anyway, that does not exonerate Paul.

    Surely Driscoll is maturing as a leader, and has some great counsel around him, I hope his Randy Savage Jesus doesn’t prove his undoing.

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38. Correct. One thing that opened my eyes to Christianity was learning that there were denominations that ordained women.

    I figured that any religion that stated God put men in charge was not really about God at all.

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39. If you read that then you didn’t read the blog entry Driscoll wrote himself, which means you’re filling in blanks with your own conclusions based on a Seattle Times article. I get how you could conclude from that article in the Times how Driscoll must have been talking about Haggard’s wife but he wasn’t. Doesn’t mean Driscoll should have talked about wives letting themselves go but I live in Seattle, attended the church for nine years, and actually saw the documents the fracas was about. It’s important to keep digging when we’re tempted to think we’ve found what we’re sure the real situation is.The lack of clear sourcing, context, and full citation in the Times article is problematic.

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40. Good point Cent. as long as ears want to be itched, there will be plenty of Driscoll’s to scratch them. There’s an attraction to a meek, humble man like Moses but Driscoll seems a bit arrogant for my taste…

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41. In cases of strong dissagreements that can’t be resolved see Paul and Barnabas in Acts 15. Stuff happens among strong men. It was no tragedy; it was a multiplication of effort.

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42. You are right, I have heard some things about how Driscoll has taken authoritarian stances and it disappoints me as it flies in the face of the sort of man he is asking to step forward. The sort I have heard him ask for are the same sort who are firm in acting on their own convictions and don’t always “play nice.” It goes to, “careful what you ask for, you may just get it.” But I still like the emphasis of his ministry. I think it is much needed. Whimpy western Christianity had about killed my faith until Driscoll, Eldredge, and the like came along.

    The other stuff you quote I chalk up to overstating his point. I don’t think he is serious about tattooed faces since he has none on his face. A lot of that is just overstatements to make a point that will stick in people’s minds.

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43. Yeah, he has said women shouldn’t go to college if they have to borrow a ton of money that will become debt their husbands pay. He didn’t exactly say they should never go to college. He said that going to college if you don’t have to do so through massive loans is a good idea and that women should never presume that they will marry, meaning they should plan to have autonomous careers. But that can frequently turn into a peculiar kind of double bind in the lives of normal people.

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44. BIG can of worms , here, Dan-o: are you saying that Driscoll’s package/theology is one that plays “fair” with those who dissent ?? I totally agree that most pastors have a very tough time with this, and want “nice guys” who don’t rock the boat. But what does Driscoll want ? This is worth looking into: I think I see some wild ambivalence, here: the Braveheart thing is great, but what if one of the ‘regulars’ dares to challenge William Wallace ??

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45. Good point. I am as complementarian as they come, but i recognize God gave people brains and the ability to have some insight into things that haven’t seen. To treat the church like and overbearing, abusive father is not masculine, it is the manifestation of a controlling narcissist.

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46. I still don’t get it. I don’t think Driscoll’s experience of the church feminine is endemic to the church at large. I live in a region where men are men and women are women. We don’t have to target any group, not by gender, ethnic origin, economic or social status. To do so causes an imbalance, even if that is spread across 10 campuses ( who ever dreamed a church would be called a “campus”… talk about displacement!!) in three states. Driscoll seems to know his doctrine, but his appeal is a mile wide and an inch deep. ….. and it seems to be working well……

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47. My father served two tours in Vietnam as a chaplain. Once when Billy Graham came for a visit, my father was assigned as liaison. The comment he related to me was that had it been the Catholic Pope visiting, of course a Catholic chaplain would have drawn that assignment. But since it was the Protestant Pope…

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48. The change in women’s work in the ’60s was for middle class women. As you point out, women had always worked in the lower class, out of necessity. The change was that an educated middle class woman might pursue a career by choice, rather than being supported by a husband. The typical pattern before then had been to work for a few years prior to marriage. The women who kept working were presumed to be unmarriagable. Of course there always have been exceptions to this. And if we move the discussion to the upper classes the rules have always been different. But there is quite a lot of truth to the notion that there was a cultural shift.

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49. I do think video games are dangerous in excess. But how is watching lots of sports, going to monster truck rallies, or fiddling with your car any different?

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50. And hasn’t he also said something to the effect of “women shouldn’t go to college if they have to borrow money because it puts an unfair burden on their future husbands”? I’m going by hearsay, so I could be wrong. But generally, while he never states it outright, I find that a condescending dislike for intellectuals lurks just beneath the surface of a lot of what he says.

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51. This sort of “real men are macho jocks” attitude is what really bothers me about Driscoll. Jesus was of course not a wimpy sunshine-and-flowers hippie, but the version of him Driscoll pushes is just as inaccurate (he LET HIMSELF BE KILLED…how can you ignore that?). And his whole image of masculinity is brutal and harsh to introverts or “geeks” or anyone who doesn’t care about sports. What is so holy about a monster truck rally?

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52. “Churches want obedient men who will agree with the pastor, go along with the church program, fall in line with what the church leadership perceives the needs to be, etc.”

    From what I understand, this is pretty much what Driscoll expects from the people at Mars Hill.

    I personally get a little wary when people spend a lot of time talking about authority and getting people to submit to authority. I don’t think authority in the church is something that is granted from the top-down. It’s more along the lines of something that comes from serving those we are leading.

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53. I’m not here to harp on Driscoll, especially as he has made great moves towards public humility in recent months, but I must address a few of your points:

    To your last paragraph, Driscoll has on more than one occasion flexed his muscles to put down men who stood up to him in his congregation. In practice he has created a culture where men (or people in general) are supposed to be obedient to him and agree with him or are otherwise disciplined. Here is one example, albeit a bit tainted:

    You can actually find a lot of writing on this incident and others like it at Mars Hill.

    Like this blog dedicated to the issue: http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/

    And, of course, the seemingly unending supply of quotes like this:

    “Jesus and Paul were serious dudes. They had teeth missing. Jesus was a carpenter, Paul was in prison. These guys didn’t eat tofu dogs and bean sprouts. They didn’t play tennis. If there were trucks back in their times, they would have been doing driveway lube jobs on a Saturday afternoon. Same thing with King David. Yeah, he might have played a lyre, but he slaughtered thousands of guys.”

    “In Revelations, Jesus is a prize fighter with a tattoo down His leg, a sword in His hand and the commitment to make someone bleed. That is a guy I can worship. I cannot worship the hippie, diaper, halo Christ because I cannot worship a guy I can beat up.”

    “We want to love our city and we can’t do that with a bunch of pansies who would rather play video games than go to a monster truck rally or tattoo their faces like Mike Tyson.”

    And this gem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddFbELpXTcg&feature=player_embedded

    Again, I think Mark has taken some large pastoral steps in recent history but until he stops acting as though the only way to be male is to be violent and misogynistic I will speak against his teaching, especially in these areas.

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54. Your quote from MD did not change my opinion at all. He is a gifted public speaker. No disagreement there. And, he does strike a chord with men. But there is a dark side. When those men take what he says to heart, and stand up to his all to often bullying, they are publically accused of “sinfully questioning” or threatened with harm. And many have been harmed. That is not the gospel.

    /

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55. For a summary on the effect of family (especially fathers) on so-called evangelical leaders, see Doug Frank’s Book–A Gentler God, chapter 2: The God Who Built Shame. His insights seem helpful with this discussion.

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56. Well said.

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57. I don’t think you are properly characterizing what Driscoll is saying at all. He isn’t promoting some sort of macho-Christianity. What I hear him as saying is that too much of the church uses the equation mature+Christian+man=passive(nice)+Christian+man. He isn’t promoting being a macho-man, he is speaking of an aggression that will do what needs to be done for the cause of Truth no matter the hardship to the man. That kind of “fighting spirit” is sorely lacking in the church at large.

    But most churches don’t work to produce a man with that sort of strength because he can’t be easily controlled. Churches want obedient men who will agree with the pastor, go along with the church program, fall in line with what the church leadership perceives the needs to be, etc. I know strong men who walked away from church less because of faith issues, and more because the pastor drummed them out as “troublemakers.” They are men with convictions and strength who could greatly advance the Kingdom, instead they are out there on their own because they don’t fit into our churches. That is what Driscoll is addressing.

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58. When Paul said this is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church, he was not just using superlatives. It is truly a profound mystery that goes to the heart of unifying opposites, God and humanity; good and evil. The only way opposites can unify is if they are indeed opposites, so men must be men and women must be women. That has zero to do with outward appearance. Homosexuality is currently in vogue on American TV and in the culture but it is antithetical to the natural order of the church, being the female counterpart to Christ that she is. My relationship as a man to my wife is a small image of Christ and the church – at least I can hope. Men don’t need to ‘act’ manly to be men but they must ‘be’ manly. They must live out and through the male essence. It’s important and part of a great mystery.

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59. I don’t recall the title Protestant Pope ever being applied to John Piper. Now John MacArthur, on the other hand…

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60. Nice post. It sure is “an upside down” Kingdom, eh ??

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61. I made a mistake Wenatchee/Martha.

    Mark Driscoll said that Ted Haggard’s wife let herself go, meaning she lost her sex appeal and that caused his infidelity. Here is the story in the Seattle Times

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003460647_driscoll04m.html

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62. Andrew, did you read the same post and comments I did? “Beat like a government mule”? Come on, this was one of the most balanced and thoughtful discussions I’ve ever been a part of on IM.

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63. Posts like this are why I visit this site less than I used to.

    No complementarian espouser of anything Reformed can be mentioned here without being beat like a government mule. Driscoll gets called a bully and a woman hater. I’ve seen Piper called the Protestant pope on here.

    I’ll say it one more time: the big difference between Driscoll and myself is that when I say something dumb, I don’t have thousands of people listening to my podcast. I usually only have to apologize in private to 3 or 4 people at most. Mostly I have to apologize to my loving and gracious wife (who doesn’t listen much to Driscoll herself but thinks men should).

    He shouldn’t have put up a post about effeminate worship leaders; I won’t defend that. However, I doubt if he retracted the statement and apologized for it that he would receive any kind of grace or forgiveness from many who comment on iMonk.

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64. I think much of this has to do more with the lack of teaching kids how to grow into adults than masculine or feminine directions in churches.

    Starting in the 20s/30s there was a big movemen that started taking holdt in the US to allow children to be “kids” until they got to their later teens. The problems is you have to learn how to be an adult. You don’t flip a switch and magically start acting maturely. There was an interruption in this as pushing much(most?) of the late teen through late 20s males in the US through the military forced them to get over being kids and grow up. Plus learn how to take care of laundry, keep a clean house, show up on time, etc… WWII and all that. The 50s and 60s got us back on the eternal kid track and the late60s cemented it. I even had parent in the 60s tell me about how they wanted to hide all th adult things in the world from their kids till after college so they would have a nicer childhood than they had. And many of them had the depression to cloud their views of what a normal life was.

    I could go on but I personally feel that many issues in the broader western church would be moved in a better direction of we made the point of childhood to be to grow into an adult and not have it be 20 years of solid play time. And I don’t mean no fun. But it needs to understood that the end game is a fully functioning adult. Not a child that is supposed to magically change at age 20.

    And I’m very suspicious off all these studies about adolescent brains no being adult brains until after age 20. Maybe this is a result of how we raise our children and not a pre-determined state.

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65. Especially when you miss with such persuasion. or get in a hurry and allow flesh to become the bushing between some implement and the rear of a tractor.

    As to earthy, I remember when I saw a calf being born with “assistance”. Involved a few well placed kicks for positioning then what looked like tire chains with hooks and two large men pulling hard. Antiseptic, sterile, and pretty were not in the description.

    And my father’s father’s farm had a small slaughterhouse. I still think society would be better off if the middle school kids toured these instead of or in addition to the local grocery store.

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66. I was referring to deacons, lay elders and such. There’s a definite bias against blue collar in our society. Just look at the fiction of all kids need to be on a college track K-12.

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67. Pingback: Driscoll, Masculinity, and the Missional Church « Signposts 02

68. Thank you. This was fantastic.

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69. “I’m retired in a rural area.”

    Very likely, then, Driscoll’s “generalization” is simply one you don’t experience in your everyday life. I, for one, have seen more than my share of white-belt-wearing men in the church amidst the vast sea of estrogen here in Los Angeles. I imagine the same is true of Driscoll’s experience in Seattle, and I doubt that he’s just projecting his own failures on the entire city: more than likely, many other men have had that same experience.

    Remember: we’re not just talking about masculinity in a social construct sense. We’re talking about a generation of men who are shirking their Biblical responsibility as men (or, at the very least, refusing to exercise to get in shape for when they get married, e.g.). You may not see it everywhere, but I can guarantee you see it in spades in a place like Seattle.

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70. Oh Mars Hill teaches this. It’s depressingly common.

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71. You do realize that it’s men who are writing these songs, right? I’m sorry but you just can’t put all the blame on women here. Bad music isn’t masculine or feminine, it’s just bad.

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72. I would say when you are talking about the liberal half of the population this is almost certainly true.

    I also think this has something to do with the rather rapid growth of various forms of paganism*, as at least some people with a desire for spiritualism see themselves seeking out a religion where gender equality is there at the base-level, rather than something that seems to have been only reluctantly agreed on.

    *That is a terrible umbrella word for those groups, but I can’t think of a better one right now.

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73. Churches do tend to be led by white-collar men, but that’s ’cause many churches require a certain amount of education in their pastors. Blue-collar pastors are too hit-and-miss. Ideally, they should recognize what they’re deficient in, be humble about it, and strive to do their homework and get better; and I have seen some excellent blue-collar pastors do just that.

    But I find just as often they’ll assume their anointing from God, or their inspiration by the Spirit, more than makes up for a lack of education; and they will accept no input or correction from anyone. Not their wives; sometimes not even their elders; and (scarily) certainly not from the Holy Spirit. It’s them against the world.

    Yeah, white-collar pastors can get this way too, but I’ve seen it way more often in blue-collar pastors.

    Cussing is the least of my concerns.

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74. Perhaps my comments are bit late but, I find it interesting that this notion that women never worked out of the home until the sixties is a bit of a cliché. My Grandmother had one child and she and my grandfather both worked outside of the home. She worked in a sock factory and he worked in a metal refinery. He never attended church and come to think of it few of my grandmother’s sisters husbands did either. (All of those seven women worked outside the home and one shockingly didn’t have children!!! Gasp, horror, shock! Also, no one from the church came after her either) I know this is one family story but, I don’t think that “churches are only marketed for women and children” is some new phenomenon. The minister at my grandmother’s little Baptist church from all accounts faithfully cared for his flock some whole families, others women and their children. He also went to those people’s home and witnessed to the spouses who for their own reasons didn’t attend. Maybe some didn’t come for the reasons Driscoll states and maybe others had different reasons. I don’t know my Grandfather’s exact reasons for not attending but I am sure it had something to do with being told what to do. I don’t think he or the other “,manly men” of his generation (he was QUITE masculine) would have thought that they would like Driscoll’s church either. Yelling at my WWII vet, masculine grandfather WOULD NOT have gotten his attention or adoration. In fact, he would have thought said yelling, cussing pastor was just a vulgar boy and would not have been impressed.

    As he grew older he would always watch television on Sundays especially Charles Stanley but, he never would enter in a church. I remember him saying that he thought they just wanted your money. Perhaps many men flock to Driscoll’s sermons but, he alienates other men. He is only trying to reach a certain segment of men. I would say that even some very masculine men would not be ooohhing and awwwing over him and I know that people of the depression era (my grandparents) probably would have heartily disagreed that their wives couldn’t work out of the home. I get really annoyed with the characterization of the “good ole days” when men worked and women stayed at home. Post industrial age that just simply hasn’t been the case for every single family. Pre 1850 yes but not afterwards; especially in cities. For those women who were on farms (my great grandparents) they were out in the fields helping their husbands bring in cotton. It seems that family then had a clearer definition of “men’s and women’s roles” but for many of those men they needed their wives in order for their role to be what it needed to be which in my mind is what true complementarianism is. This other view seems warped at best. Of course their is also the theological view of complementarianism that women should hold office of the ministry… on that I guess I will respond at a different time. I don’t know that both are of the same essence. Just my take….

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75. Listen, I’m not primarily addressing this question because of a cultural push. I’m addressing it because I honestly think that Scripture is being interpreted improperly by use of this method. As much as I’ve looked, I can find no indication of the kind of pre-fall headship complementarians get out of Genesis 1. I think the NT is far less clear about some of these matters than we’d like it to be.

    So what makes the preaching of the pastoral office strictly different from someone like Beth Moore, who I’m pretty sure is “teaching” both men and women? I understand a sacramental view of preaching itself (though I think the Scriptural evidence is less clear on this than it is on, say, the Eucharist) but I honestly don’t see the reason this necessarily extends to the pastoral office. Seems to me if we’re taking the priesthood of all believers seriously, this kind of male-female distinction is less than helpful. I also have seen no credible argument as to why women aren’t *actually capable* of teaching men. It basically comes down to “God told them they couldn’t”, which i actually don’t think God does. (THe prohibitions of sins all have *reasons* behind them–they’re not arbitrary, and this denying of women the ability to preach is one of the most arbitrary limitations I’ve ever seen.) I would actually argue that the modern culture is pushing a complementarian view in many ways, with it’s warped image of masculinity.

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76. Amen, Phil. 🙂

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77. In my view it is always dangerous when we let what we feel passionate about determine our theological views.

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78. Driscoll seems to have strong feelings on what make men “masculine” and what makes them “effeminate”. The problem is that he wants to attract the “masculine”males as he perceives them. I think that if that’s working for him, fine. However, stop telling everyone else that they have to be like his image of a male.

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79. Martha,
    I teach Adult/Continuing Ed classes. On such subjects as Using Your Digital Camera and Photoshop. A few thoughts that I think are pertinent to the greater discussion.

    Like you, my classes tend to be weighted female. Usually all female. Here are my thoughts:

    Being smart is not cool. Having an education and a well rounded vocabulary is considered “elitist”. This is not a political comment as much as it is a social comment. Many young men in particular are turned off to learning in general. Learning is for whatever reason considered ‘feminine”. My day job is in a public school district, I’ve been watching this trend for a while.

    I think that this spills over into church attendance as well. Although, I applaud Driscoll in trying to attract young men, I wonder if his efforts to make church more masculine is an up hill battle. We could complain that the songs are too “feminine” or that the Pastor is not he-man enough. I suspect that it’s the concept of church where the problem lies. Like knowledge, church has been pegged as something that women do. Therefore, it is feminine, therefore uncool.

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80. To answer the questions:

    1. Yes. It seems he wanted a church that would uphold his family/neighborhood culture. As others have pointed out, some aspects of that culture work to keep men and women immature; those are not good things. And as others have spoken above: where was Jesus, especially the Jesus who won our freedom from sin death through his abject humility?

    2. No.

    3. This is difficult. Most of the expressions of Evangelicalism with which I was involved weren’t too strong on helping anyone, male or female, understand why they continued in unhealthy, immature patterns. Most were not the “deadbeats” against whom Driscoll rages; but the source of our sins is within, not “out there” somewhere. It’s not as straightforward as just yelling, “Man up!” or “Don’t do that!”

    4. and 5. My Orthodox parish has lots of men, and most of them are involved; in personalities and traits they are all over the (culturally conditioned “masculine”/”feminine”) spectrum, from our jazz-guitarist rector to a Civil War re-enactor. A few men have lost their jobs, or, just out of school, have not been able to break into work in this economic downturn, and their wives are working to support their families; the men are not harangued that they’re “not manly enough” and the “working mothers” aren’t shamed for working for money. We just don’t spend a lot of time on this issue: Orthodox teaching is that men and women are equally made in the image of God and equally called to be human, period. This is a far cry from the logical ends of some strict complementarian teaching. Ok, so in Orthodoxy some men are priests; most men aren’t. Otherwise, women can do anything men can do: be elected to, and chair, the Parish Council; initiate and oversee ministries; instruct all types of men, including instructing seminarians in biblical languages and anything else they need to know; be choir directors (an extremely important and responsible area of service); work hard to benefit the church and the community; pray.

    In chapter 4 of “Exclusion and Embrace,” Miroslav Volf has written the best Protestant treatment of the gender issue I have ever read.

    This is also extremely good.
    http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/svsvoices/women_disciples_of_the_lord_part_one
    “Male and Female He Created Them”. Speaker is Fr. John Behr. Yeah, he has a lisp; he’s married with children and is a long-distance bicyclist, so hope that makes up for it. There is actual theological depth here.

    Ok, that was mildly snarky; as I say, I’m discouraged that some of those who insist that the bible is their sole rule of faith can’t absolutely-bottom-line-take-it-to-the-end-of-their-line-of-reasoning affirm the humanness of both males and females, and furthermore have gone so far as to defend that contention by tampering with the doctrine of the Trinity. **That’s** what’s dangerous, not some supposed “feminization” of the church.

    I’ll be quiet now.

    Dana

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81. I wasn’t dissing men’s groups, honest 🙂

    But I think many times we put too much focus on one or the other group dynamics based on gender alone, I really don’t mind if they are done properly. But too many times we try to get creative in our zeal to make them more gender specific, and somewhere along the way we lose track of the actual goal. I agree that where men are being open and honest, it can be a rewarding experience.

    It could just be my experience, but too many times men only groups, even among believers. Heads quickly into areas that should not be discussed, and there is a difference in sharing something with a close friend, and sharing it with a group of men.

    For some men an environment like that can be a very enriching experience, but I’ve had such mixed results that anymore I only open up and share with men who I consider true friends.

    -Paul-

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82. That’s kind of the whole irony to me, though. Jesus is already victorious through His death on the cross. His resurrection proved His victory of the powers that crucified Him. The victory was through weakness, not through brute force. Also, the blood that is on Jesus’ garments in Revelation isn’t that of his enemies – it’s his own.

    I guess it really has to do with our eschatology, at least to a degree, but I don’t think the point in Jesus coming back is to finish by force what He couldn’t accomplish the first time. The Kingdom is already breaking in here and now, and one day every day will bow to Christ. I suspect there will be some violence as the full consummation of the Kingdom, but even throughout the entire book of Revelation, Jesus is referred to as the Lamb. He conquers through “losing”, as it were. This is a major point where I disagree with Driscoll on.

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83. “In other words, Protestants are from Mars, Catholics are from Venus ”

    *Snorts*
    That is just about the funniest thing I’ve heard in a while.

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84. sigh … yeah, I remember that one, too. It was just one sermon as best I can remember but the whole stand-up routine about his domestic imcompetence dragged on too long. Anyone who can even think of cracking open a book by John Murray can read an instruction label well enough to do laundry.

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85. Rick-
    That sounds like an excellent essay!

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86. Although I see your point about the phony posturing that goes on at many men’s activities I have to disagree about the general need for men’s groups. Where the men are being honest, open, and authentic it is a transforming and healing place. And when that is happening, it is not a place for women. Most times it is great for husband and wife to worship and learn together, but there is also a level of openness that excludes mixed company. Being open in front of my own wife is fine, but there are things I could/should never share or talk about with other women in the room. I would suspect that the same thing is true for women’s groups.

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87. This is purely anecdotal, but I just finished a four year stint as a youth pastor so here is my story:

    As a young boy I took dance lessons for 10 years. I like poetry. I like theatre. I’m a musician. I also played football and ran track but in the spectrum of masculine to feminine I’m somewhere in the middle.

    My youth ministry was consistently 80% (and higher) male. These were rough guys too. I can’t tell you how many probation and court hearings I’ve been to for male students of mine who thought the best way forward in a conversation was pushing their fist into somebody’s face. All this to say, I had a strong ministry towards males and didn’t need to be hyper-masculine. In fact, I spent more time working with these students on alternatives to violence and testosterone demonstrations than most other topics. Most of them came from households where their fathers or other male figures expected them to be mean to women, belch, and throw punches. It seemed that having a sensitive male was a new wind for them.

    I spent the better part of a year working in Australia, the land of the “Bloke.” If you’re unaware, bloke is a term used to describe a man’s man, in many cases. As an American I was allowed to be a bit different and I was surprised by the amount of Australian men who approached me to talk about their “feelings” because they had no other outlets. To pretend like men are supposed to fit into some he-man, meat eater, gun shooting, face punching stereotype is to place expectations on them that cut short the fullness of the human experience, including emotions and sensitivities that culture otherwise despises.

    I’m not effeminate, but I know from my own ministry that “machismo” does more harm to men than good, especially in regards to the Kingdom. I’m thankful for my manhood but don’t feel that my manhood is defined by figures like rambo or Mark Driscoll and it is shame anytime a young man who struggles with anger and violence is told that they should embrace that part of themselves rather than harness it towards goodness and charity.

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88. Before I say anything else, I’m complementarian, always have been. I’m not hardcore about it, but I do think the RCC has the right side of the issue. I agreed with their stand long before I was even thinking of joining.

    That being said, I don’t get these men only groups at all anymore. I married my best friend, and I actually prefer to spend the majority of my time with her, not drinking beer with my buddies. It’s not that I don’t go out and play Golf or drink beer with my buddies, I do those things often enough (sometimes they get combined all into one event). But it would be better IMO if the wives would come along, but that’s just me. I’m not complete unless she’s there.

    I’m going to take a left turn and go a different direction…

    In my experience and ‘opinion’ we don’t need more groups for men, we don’t men exclusive anything. What we need are an older generation of men who can stand as role models, hold to their integrity and show the way for the younger men. We need to spend more time equipping all our church members, on things like Foundational Christianity, Theology, Practical Orthopraxy or Good Old Fashioned Catechesis.

    Most men that I know that stop going, stop because they get tired of the nonsense, the hypocrisy and the lack of authenticity. They quickly determine if there is no depth, and they get frustrated and leave. I think church sanctioned events that cater to men are OK, when used sparingly. I think much of the junk that goes on today, misses the mark, and just becomes noise. I rarely go to church sponsored events for men anymore, and I disdain fraternal groups that recruit within the churches.

    What I think is vastly more effective, if men with solid foundational beliefs do real like things like play sports, or watch sports, have BBQ’s, go camping, brew some beer (my favorite), etc etc. And invite non church members along, leave the faith out. Don’t cram it down anyone’s throat, just be normal and show them you can be a believer AND normal at the same time. Sometimes all a man needs is someone who can understand where they are at, without all the trappings…

    Just my opinion…

    -Paul-

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89. I think Driscoll would say that we should not only focus and worship the Jesus who came but also the Jesus who is coming (ie the man on a white horse with armies of heaven sent to make war on the kings of earth)

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90. He’s got a point about men needing to act like christ, and I appreciate his apparent intolerance of domestic abuse and a father being absent. Hopefully he can reach some of the men in seattle who may have left their families, or who a violent towards the women in their life.

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91. I’ve discovered, unfortunately, that some of the reason some guys don’t show up at those classes is that a lot of worker retraining programs are geared toward families. Unmarried people are up the creek without a paddle where husbands would get more consideration and be eligible for more funds.

    But I’ve seen a lot of guys sounding off on blogs about how evil people are who suck on the government welfare teat. Some of these guys may avoid getting retraining because there’s a strong sense of shame associated with accepting any government funding; and because depending on where you’re at the assumption that anyone who uses the welfare system in any way is evil can be strong. I’ve seen a conservative single mom condemn other people for using welfare while simultaneously complaining bitterly about how her unemployment benefits weren’t extended. That’s a whole separate topic, really, but there’s definitely a temptation for at least SOME men to feel as though accepting any government assistance in the job hunt that isn’t somehow something you “earned” by prior work (i.e. unemployment) is bad or dishonorable.

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92. i am concerned about such a trend. younger Christians already on their 2nd marriages? really?

    i wonder if this is a topic iMonk can approach. the divorce rate within Evangelical circles & the age(s) of those opting for this marriage dissolution option…

    hmmm… 😦

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93. But regarding our interpretation of marriage: we do need to realize that alot of our stuff comes form the Christian realization of love in the Middle Ages, and from the Song of Songs. We are wrong, but subtly, not drastically.

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94. Good call on the young marriage thing. Most of the gals I was in youth group with are on their 2nd marriage already, truth be told. But, context for my situation: South-central Texas, Anglican Church North America. Previously, same geography, Messianic Judaism.

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95. Except that Driscoll didn’t say what most people here think he said. He didn’t talk about Haggard’s wife, he used the incident with Haggard as a way to talk about pastor’s wives as a class of people, which “could” be taken as referring to Haggard’s wife, and obviously was. Some folks at Mars Hill at the time said that even placing “wives let themselves go” on the list AT ALL, let alone in point 2 of 10, was just asking for trouble but obviously those long-married husbands were not consulted before Driscoll made that public statement.

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96. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I consider a much bigger problem to be “absentee dads” in this area: no real discipleship, but a lot of yelling and screaming from the pulpit to shape up and do x, y, and z…

    or simply Xy & no z implied or intended… 😉

    [a little genetics humor here to offset the bully pulpit antics]

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97. It does sound like a re-hash of the Victorian “Muscular Christianity” movement.

    From “The Development of Muscular Christianity in Victorian Britain and Beyond”, Watson, N., Weir, S. and Friend, S. (2005, Journal of Religion and Society, Vol. 7):

    “The basic premise of Victorian Muscular Christianity was that participation in sport could contribute to the development of Christian morality, physical fitness, and “manly” character. The term was first adopted in the 1850s to portray the characteristics of Charles Kingsley (1819-1875) and Thomas Hughes’ (1822-1896) novels. Both Kingsley and Hughes were keen sportsmen and advocates of the strenuous life. Fishing, hunting, and camping were Kingsley’s favorite pastimes, which he saw as a “counterbalance” to “. . . education and bookishness” (Bloomfield: 174). Hughes was a boxing coach and established an athletics track and field program and cricket team at the Working Men’s College in London where he eventually became Principal (Redmond). Not just writers but social critics, Kingsley and Hughes were heavily involved in the Christian Socialist movement and believed that the Anglican Church had become weakened by a culture of effeminacy (Putney). Kingsley supported the idea that godliness was compatible with manliness and viewed manliness as an “antidote to the poison of effeminacy – the most insidious weapon of the Tractarians – which was sapping the vitality of the Anglican Church” (Newsome: 207). From this, the doctrine of Muscular Christianity was adopted as a response to the perceived puritanical and ascetic religiosity of the Tractarians, later known as the Oxford Movement.”

    In other words, Protestants are from Mars, Catholics are from Venus 🙂

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98. interesting word picture there briank…

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99. The problem in the West is that we idealize women too much. We think they are somehow better, more virtuous than men are.

    hasn’t our American culture attempted this? to elevate the loving/nurturing qualities of femininity to ‘offset’ the negative aspects of masculinity? the abuse that males are guilty of has had a backlash in our society that somehow wants to ‘soften’ the testosterone laden bad behaviors men do to women & children.

    is there a corresponding acquiescence default occuring in many churches today? emphasize the love aspect of God that is affirming & accepting & encouraging & warm/safe while ignoring the more masculine traits of respect & honor & rightheous anger about injustice & inequality & what is really wack with this world???

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100. Macho-Jesus would have come to earth & beat the HELL out of us!!!! I take the real Jesus.

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101. from Driscoll quote you can see what he’s looking for. NOT a Church, He was looking for a CULTURE.
     He was not looking for Love, Forgiveness, & Grace —-he was looking for TRENCH WARFARE not THE WAY.
     Sadly, it looks like he has found it. He has culture, he has demographics—- But that does not make a Church.

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102. “(Look up Hanna Rosin and The Atlantic Monthly.)”

     Damaris, I’m glad you mentioned this article. Specifically, I read the article “The End of Men” many months ago (I think it was on somebody’s – maybe David Brooks of the New York Times – New Year’s list of some sort) and have have been turning it over in my mind on and off ever since, especially as it relates to assorted manifestations in my own church of the “manly man” – and the “womanly woman” – Christian culture phenomenon.

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103. Interpreted that way, you set the Galatians passage against what Paul says in 1 Timothy and 1Corintians, forcing creative ‘exegesis’ of the latter passages that does not appear to be the most honest way of handling those texts.

     I realize that the traditional interpretation of these passages is under cultural siege in our society, and that I probably won’t convince anyone here of anything. Be that as it may, wishful thinking doesn’t change the texts.

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104. but I love warplanes (when I saw, in my mid-teens, the Blackbird SR-71 on the back of a cornflakes box, I fell in love)…

     i knew there something more, well, beneath the theological radar that has made me a big fan of your perspectives Martha…

     yeah…airplanes, especially military aircraft. i hope that doesn’t make me a warmonger or champion of militaristic saber rattling. i know i could not have been able to do the fighter pilot escapades my youthful imagination championed, but i do like well designed aircraft that does have its own aesthetic…

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105. To go off on a tangent, as someone involved in a clerical capactiy with local education committee, I have noticed that the Adult/Continuing Education classes tend to be majority women.

     It’s hard to attract men and I don’t exactly know why – some classes (such as childcare) I can understand as being seen as “women’s work” but classes in computer and business qualifications?

     The only thing I can figure is that these are regarded as secretarial and hence women’s work, but the thing is – we’re in a small town that’s hit by unemployment (there were always only a few big employers and a lot of these have closed down, moved elsewhere, etc.) so that the government programmes are very much slanted towards re-skilling, up-skilling, re-training. And these days, even ‘blue-collar’ manufacturing jobs need computer qualifications (e.g. my brother who works on the factory line in a pharmaceutical plant had to do an ECDL training course) so you’d imagine these could be filled by unemployed guys looking to add skills.

     Nope. Even evening classes that you would imagine would be geared towards men (wood-working classes, using lathes and the like; mechanics; that nature of things) – can’t fill them or get the numbers.

     Why is this, can anyone tell me? I get that men want to look for a job, particularly a job in the same field they’ve had before, but time and again it’s been women who say “I wanted to do something to keep my mind occupied” or “I wanted to keep my skills fresh” or “Now that the kids have started school full-time, I wanted to go back to work” and that’s why they sign up to Adult Education. Their husbands – can’t make ’em join, can’t get ’em interested.

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106. I’m wondering where you go to church that there is a dearth of women- as a single woman in my late 20s, I’ve never been to a church with less than a 4-1 single women to men ratio in the past 10 years. And I’ve been to a lot of churches! I find that young single women seem to be regarded as constantly looking for husbands (in the church at any rate) which I really hate. It feels like those few guys that are there in the church (especially if they are at all involved/engaged) really play the women a lot, too. I am not personally looking to get married any time soon, but I hate the weird vibe it gives male/female relationships in the church. I think one reason there are fewer single 20/30somethings is that Christians get married SO YOUNG. The only people I know in my age range who are married are Christians (this is starting to change a lot as I get closer to 30- a couple of weddings this summer especially).

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107. I would suggest reading Philip Barton Payne MAN AND WOMAN: ONE IN CHRIST and reading some of the articles at CBE International. There are many scholarly articles that contest or raise valid questions about your assertions.

     Also, don’t just interpret 1 Timothy 2:12-14 without including all of 2:8-15.

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108. “Women: know your limits! In thought, be plain and simple, and let your natural sweetnes shine through.”

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109. another addendum:

     i also think Mark Driscoll the victim of his own PR. he relishes the role of being a provocateur within the more conservative Evangelical circles he likes stirring-the-pot & the attention it gets…

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110. The orthodox liturgy neatly sums it up by addressing him as the “Lover of Mankind”, not losing the love, but taking it out of boyfriend land.

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111. I do have to agree with him about the “Jesus is my boyfriend” songs, though 🙂

     Trouble is, you can’t easily stuff human nature into pigeonholes. My brother is a man and he watches all the soap operas that you couldn’t pay me to sit down and watch. I know two guys online who love romantic anime, whereas I think they’re soppy (the anime, not the guys). I can wear pink, but I don’t like it. I don’t like guns, but I love warplanes (when I saw, in my mid-teens, the Blackbird SR-71 on the back of a cornflakes box, I fell in love).

     Where does that put us all on the spectrum of manly men and girly girls? Besides, as a single woman with no inclination towards marriage, I wonder how I’d fit into Mark Driscoll’s church? I do get the impression he has the Inspector Monkfish attitude towards women – or is that unfair? 😉

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112. I don’t go to church for men. I go to church for Christ. Isn’t that a big problem in the American church, GOD has left the building because we are looking at/for earthly things all in the name of religion?

     Well said and very perceptive. I’ve experienced this kind of thing a number of times.

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113. “His comments about Ted Haggard’s wife after his fall in which he claimed that she didn’t open her barn door enough was outright bullshit.”

     He said that? Okay, here is where I have to disagree. Sometimes, yes, one’s spouse is partially to blame for not being supportive or for being criticial,nagging, and excessive, but sometimes it’s your own damn fault.

     You have to admit that the reason I drink is not because my wife nags me, it’s because I’m an alcoholic. The stock joke figure of the guy chatting a woman up in a bar with the line ‘my wife doesn’t understand me’ – most of us realise that she understands him all too well.

     If Driscoll said something like this, it’s an old trope; Canto XV, “Inferno”, the Seventh Circle of Hell, the Burning Sands where the sodomites are punished; Dante and Virgil meet three prominent Florentines, one of whom introduces himself as follows:

     ” ‘And I, who am put to torment with them,
     was Jacopo Rusticucci. It was my bestial wife,
     more than all else, who brought me to this pass.’ ”

     Jacopo is blaming his wife’s coldness. If only she had fulfilled her marital duties, he would not have ended up here! And one of the traits of Hell is self-deception and refusal to admit or accept blame. So your wife wouldn’t sleep with you? That did not mean you had to have affairs. And it certainly did not mean that, if committing adultery, you were somehow mysteriously forced to do so with male rather than female partners. It was Jacopo’s choice in his bed-companions that is revelatory of his real inclinations, rather than blaming his wife for not satisfying him (and indeed, if this was his real inclination, she couldn’t have satisfied him anyway, without willingness on his part to change).

     I get his point about trying to get men into church and involved with church, and that if mostly women come, church will be seen as a woman’s thing, and I would agree with him that men need to take responsibility – but part of that responsibility surely has to be that men (and women) have to accept their own parts in what they’ve made of their lives and souls?

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114. yeah, a Mars Hill pastor wouldn’t take time to talk to people from SPU since by then SPU professors and students had been busy calling for Driscoll to get fisked in public for various things. A Wesleyan university in favor of the ordination of women probably wouldn’t get along with a Calvinist Baptist not-quite-denomination. I used to study there so that doesn’t surprise me. But the Falcon pieces about Mars Hill were not particularly helpful and I say that as someone who used to write for that paper. Driscoll, for his part, has never been particularly interested in really engaging Catholics on theology. When I discussed theological stuff with him circa 2001-2002 he came across like he’d made up his mind about Catholics long ago, per Eagle. Driscoll said he liked Peter Kreeft and could grant that individual Catholics had great things to say but has no real regard for the institution or the vast majority of its traditions.

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115. “Nope”

     Really? That’s a bold claim considering this.

     1 Timothy 2:12-14
     New American Standard Bible (NASB)
     12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

     So tell me again how Paul didn’t root his argument in the creation and the fall?

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116. I’ve never noticed it going both ways in the roughly ten years I’ve been connected to Mars Hill. Wilson has been an influence on Driscoll but probably not the other way around. Driscoll and Wilson differ on some pretty significant issues but they’re probably happy to form an alliance on the things they have in common.

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117. Yes I am a sacramentalist. I view Paul’s instruction as only dealing with the pastoral office, not schools, blogs, public speaking or even Sunday school.

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118. Joanie-

     I was raised Catholic, and often people that go from being Catholic to evangelicla/fundgelical creation do not view the Catholic Church as being Christian. I didn’t and in talking with other fundies who came from Catholicism they viewed themself as not being Christian either. Many fundgeliclas canbe condescending on Catholics in many ways and look down on them. I certainly did that and it was a part of the culture.

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119. I admire Driscoll. I have enjoyed the vast majority of the sermons I have heard from him. I like what I see of his attitude too, he seems like the kind of person whose company I would enjoy. I think a lot of what people consider to be arrogance, unkindness, etc. is nothing more than a “down the middle” approach mixed with a rough sort of jocularity.

     I would much rather hang out, and even disagree with, a person like him than have to tiptoe around the thin-skinned types that often pass for “nice” Christians. I enjoy rough, honest people, and that is how he has always struck me. And, from my personal observation, I have to agree with him that the “passive man = virtuous man” equation in most churches drives men away. The relative lack of men in US churches (published statistics) tends to agree with this.

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120. If I understand the Driscoll phenomenon correctly, then whatever means one uses to attract a certain demographic to “church” is valid if it works??? Might the thing that attracts some repel even more? Is there a net loss or a net gain? A net loss or a net gain of what, exactly?

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121. As a historical point, this whole discussion of the feminization of the church is a rehash of the same discussion over a century and a half ago. In the early 19th century the ideal was that the proper activities for a Christian were working and praying. Working gradually transformed from manual labor on a farm to white collar work in a city. The concern arose that this was resulting in feminized weaklings. Some of the criticisms of the church of the day are strikingly similar to Driscoll’s comments. The reaction was the rise of “Muscular Christianity.” This was the idea that vigorous play was also a suitably respectable activity, as it built up the strength necessary for Christian pursuits. This led indirectly to the modern sports culture. A more direct result is that YMCAs have gyms and swimming pools. There are several books by social historians on the topic. A search on “Muscular Christianity” will turn them up. They might make interesting reading for observers of the Mars Hill phenomenon.

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122. From the part of Mark’s talk that Chaplain Mike quoted, I read, “And one my biggest fears in high school was becoming a Christian, because I thought immediately I would have to become very feminine.” It’s interesting that he says that, because Mark was brought up as a Catholic. So he must not have thought that he was a Christian even though he would have been baptized if he was a Catholic child. Or, like many Catholics, he stopped believing along the way and when he eventually decided or discovered that Jesus and Christianity was for real, at that point he saw himself “becoming a Christian.” I wonder what influences the Catholic Church had on him? What were the priests like? I did just find an article online where someone was complaining about a sermon he gave in which he made fun of Catholic doctrine. The person tried to talk to Mark about it, but met with Make’s “personal assistant who informed him that Driscoll is too busy writing sermons, teaching, and formulating theology, to meet with people.” The article was from 2005 on thefalcononline so he may not still feel the same way. I don’t know.

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123. You know, I think this is one of the best assessments I have read of Mark Driscoll. I suspect the lack of the middle class gloss gets him in more trouble than anything else.

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124. Remember the movie “Cry-Baby” with Johnny Depp. In prison he gets a teardrop tattoo and says “I’ve been hurt all my life, but real tears wash away.” I still think of that movie occasionally. It’s full of macho braggadocio. The setting is mid 1950’s I think.

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125. I think it goes both ways a little. I’m not sure that Pr. Wilson was influenced by Driscoll, but five years ago, people in Moscow would have been critical of him; but now they’re getting all chummy, and Driscoll is hot, even at New St. Andrews.

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126. Chaplain Mike,
     I enjoy many of your posts, and this one as well, but your opening here is sketchy.
     Why be vague about the bullet points? If you “can’t say those things”, then why did you?
     Whose bullets are those?:)
     Nate

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127. While church leadership is definitely dominated by men, in my experience, it seems like the lay ministries and programs tend to be dominated by women running things. Also, in many families, it seems to be the mothers who drive the family’s spiritual/religious life. I do think this is a problem, only in that the guys seem to be happy to take a more passive role in the family and community’s faith life unless they want to be in ordained ministry. I’m not sure this is so much of a “feminization” of Christianity as much as it’s a laziness on behalf of the guys.

     That said, I’ve noticed that when the men step up to the plate, things go really neat. “Stepping up to the plate” doesn’t mean the men turn into chest-thumping apes either. Rather, it’s neat to see the growth that happens when the guys step out of that more passive, lazy role and take an active role in the faith life of the community and of the family. Something else that I TOTALLY have come to believe is that guys need other guys (I assume that women need women, too, but as a guy, I can only speak from our perspective on this). Sometimes that means hanging out playing sports or games or whatever and having the freedom to cuss and spit and toss back a few beers. Other times it means having our brothers hold us accountable when we wanna be jackasses. Other times it means wrestling with the tough parts of Christian life (or life in general) that only other guys can dig. But again, that doesn’t require a caricature of masculinity.

     Two other observations: There is a lot of CCM worship that comes across as almost homo erotic because it’s so touchy-feely in it’s Jesus-is-my-boyfriend “theology.” I don’t know if that appeals more to gals or not, but as a guy, that sort of song is impossible to for me to sing.

     Second, in my last two churches, as well as most of the conferences I’ve gone to in the last 10 years, among single 20- and 30-something’s, there is a MAJOR dearth of women compared to men. At my church, I’d venture to say that the ratio of single gals to single guys among folks in their 20’s or 30’s is around 1:5. Lots of young married couples in that age range, but not many singles. I wonder why that is. Have y’all experienced that as well? As a single guy in that age range, it’s nice to have a lot of guys in my life’s station to hang with. I wonder if the gals in that age range have struggles because of the dearth of other gals to be a support group.

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128. It’s so bizarre that these churches & individuals preach preach preach the role of male headship without ever preaching the character that is essential for that role…How can you fill a Christ-like role without a Christ-like heart? It’s just the worst ‘appearance over substance’ hypocrisy to call that Christian headship. These men always seem to have to make women less than they are, to be head over them. What if it’s a call for men to be more, not women to be less? This is hypothetical btw as I’m egalitarian. But why has this never occurred to them? Possibly, because they never wanted it too, & wanted only the role, without its true responsibilties.

     I’m so glad I didn’t grow up with this because I would have rebelled in the worst way.

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129. “I really like men, but I like them better when they’re being men, not yelling about being men.”

     I like that, Damaris, Me, too.

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130. “I’ve always seen the Proverbs 31 woman as a businesswoman, not a stay-at-home-mom, which is cognatively dissonant for a lot of evangelicalism, IMHO. ”

     I agree. A wealthy woman who could afford servants. Also, I see her as the “ideal woman” from the perspective of Solomon who was probably combining the admirable traits from all of his wives. 🙂

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131. addendum:

     and Mark Driscoll neither defines nor threatens my masculinity…. 😉

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132. I think your take on the condition of some churches as infantile is dead on.

     My questions is this: how does I Corinthians 9:22 (Paul is all things to all people so that by all means he might save some) fit with how Driscoll conducts his ministry? I definitely don’t agree with some of the things Driscoll apparently does; I have never listened to him or attended any of his services. But, could it be that Driscoll is owning his type of people, that he is reaching out to people who are perhaps unreachable by other pastors? I think the examination of Mars Hill also begs the question: Is there one formula for a church that is perfect for everyone?

     IMHO, it seems that there will be a variety of different churches to reach a variety of people. That’s not carte blanche for a church to be whatever it wants. And it would take a mature group of churches to recognize that they are all a part of the Church, instead of bickering over which is “right.”

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133. The blandness of it usually has to do with the “multipurpose” nature of so many church spaces. The decor is kept neutral so as to remain flexible. Unfortunately, “neutral” = neutered = no sense of identity or character. It’s biggest offense is its inoffensiveness.

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134. “I have a lot of problems with the sort of chest-thumping “masculinity” that Driscoll promotes, and claims Jesus demonstrates. Mainly because I don’t see it in Jesus,”

     Seconded. I noticed in that sermon excerpt that Driscoll stated that he was unconcerned about doctrine in choosing a church. What mattered was that the pastor match his idea of masculinity. Things don’t seem to have changed much since. This is regrettable in a layperson. It is downright dangerous in a pastor: especially a charismatic pastor in a position to persuade people of a Jesus remade more to his liking.

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135. I think Driscoll’s comments about the feminine majority are true in many contexts. They have been especially true in the contexts where I’ve worshiped. It was quite common in the churches I attended to have “seniors, children, and women” dominating the pews. I’ve had more than a few women bring their kids to church when their husbands are at home watching football or playing video games (no joke). When I heard Driscoll talk about worship music largely using romance language, it was like my eyes were open and I realized why I was so sick of them… and to no surprise it was mostly women who liked the songs. The men just kinda stood their rolling their eyes.

     I think you’re right, there have been various attempts to “masculinize” the church but Driscoll et al. has been more successful in the recent years. However your experience is a definite red flag as to what can happen in an over testosterone environment.

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136. In respect to salvation ‘there is no Jew or Greek, male or female.’ To apply that to the Pastoral office is to take it out of context. However, the Scriptures are clear on the qualifications Pastors, and they clearly forbid women from being Pastors. The Apostle Paul roots his argument in the creation and fall, not some cultural taboo.

     Nope.

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137. Does the NT describe or give a “single pastor” church model? Isn’t the word “pastor” in the singular only used with respect to Jesus?

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138. To be honest, I’ve never really understood this kind of argument. True, in its most central context Galatians 3:26-28 is talking about justification. But is it illogical to think that the way justification works (especially if you go the N. T. Wright route of believeing it’s not only a declaration of righteousness, but a declaration of membership in the covenant family of God) necessarily implies a change in how we understand relationships between people within a community? I mean, if there is no male or female in Christ, does this not say *something* at least for what it means to live in covenant community with Christ at the head?

     Also, I’ve read as many commentaries on the passage in 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy that route the pastoral office in the creation narratives. I don’t know Greek and I’m less familiar with Paul than I should be. But I’m pretty well convinced of major scholarly disagreement on these points, and that the use of creation narratives doesn’t necessarily imply what the complementarians think it does.

     Also, here’s another thing. By your strict standards, should Damris be allowed to contribute to this blog? I mean sure, she’s not exercising the “pastoral office” strictly speaking, but I can bet you she’s teaching men and educating them. And they’re probably not all younger than her. Unless your a sacramentalist with regards to the pastor *specifically* as opposed to preaching (and I think preaching can and does have a sacramental dimension) I don’t see how you can argue that a woman writing a theological treatise is qualitatively different that a woman “teaching” a man inside the church. There’s also no real agreement among complementarians in how far to stretch this. In short, the complementarian argument rests on some real thin interpretations of a few specific verses from Paul and really doesn’t make a great deal of sense.

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139. “Can one be an egalitarian, not stress “macho” Christianity, practice the historic liturgy and ministries of the church, and still have an effective ministry among all kinds of men?”

     I know lots of churches that do that… minus the historic liturgy.

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140. Rubbish! Kyle, your point about women also instigating domestic violence is supportable. I know of one case just in my circle of friends. Because of taboos against hitting women (good taboos, I say), it is far less likely for female domestic abuse to be reported or believed.

     I think men abuse far more than women do, especially physically. But women are fallen creatures too. They are capable of being mean, nasty and hard to live with. The divorce courts favor them and they know it, especially when it comes to child custody. I think Solomon said it was better to live on a corner of a roof than live with a disagreeable wife! Guess he knew what he was saying.

     The problem in the West is that we idealize women too much. We think they are somehow better, more virtuous than men are. This is rubbish. Incidentally, once a man learns to stop idealizing women and seeing them as human beings like himself, he becomes much more able to attract women, because women are not attracted to needy men who put them on pedestals. It’s a verifiable fact of life, trust me! That’s why you can’t discount Mark Driscoll.

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141. Zing! Hahaha.

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142. Yeah, heard that one too. In fact, my mom was the one who told me that, and she got it from her women’s Bible Study at our former church. It was a way of deflecting blame from Eve (“why wasn’t Adam around to guide her when she got tempted by the serpent?”).

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143. Thumbs up to Chaplain Mike for the most fair, balanced, and sensitive take on this issue in like, the whole darned internet! Your assessment is the kind that actually does work towards mutual understanding and learning to accept people with different views. For an egalitarian, you gave an amazing dose of grace to complimentarians, and for someone on the fence like me, that is a credit to your position.

     That being said, Driscoll’s comment on effeminate worship leaders, while offensive to those insecure, is at least somewhat wel deserved. I am a worship leader, and he is right. Try being on the job market for a music ministry position right now. You will learn very quickly that evangelical churches these days are rarely interested in trained musicians. The vast majority of them just want a metrosexual rock star:

     http://www.jonacuff.com/stuffchristianslike/2008/06/269-understanding-how-metrosexual-your-worship-leader-is-a-handy-guide/

     If you won’t wear skinny jeans and makeup, well then…. good luck.

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144. i’m no fan of Driscoll’s & i only know about him because of his controversy & the action his reputation incites on the internet/blog/message forums…

     i don’t find his antics/delivery appealing nor do i subscribe to his theological viewpoints regarding masculinity or femininity. yes, i believe the generality that women do indeed outnumber men 2-to-1 in Evangelical churches today a valid observation. and there is a point to be made that ‘men’ do need to grow-up from a perpetual guyhood to being, well, men. women will always fill the void by nuturing & doing so in a more sensitive manner, but that does become a bit problematic if it is keeping the church dynamic ‘infantilized’ if that is a word/definition.

     if a church is a safe haven, then women & children will be drawn to that. and if it is because their home life does not provide such a sense of security/safety, then you will have such a disproportionate demographic. that should always be celebrated & not to be corrected out of some idea that there has to be gender balance in the pews on Sunday…

     and Driscoll gets points for his boldness in doing the things he does with zeal+conviction. he can be overbearing & extreme in his stance+delivery, yet he does have a very obvious appeal. he is hitting a chord with those that do find his approach fresh, or relevant, or even biblical. he is a bit of a showman with the necessary ego to go with the role, but he is not an exception or even a negative example in that regard. he is a product of the ‘machine’ that allows such a personality to rise to a level of celebrity preacher/church leader that is no different than any of the other heavy-hitters mentioned here in other posts/articles recently.

     his past definitely defines his message+approach. we are all ‘shaped’ by things that were out of our control in our upbringing. and i think that is part of what Jesus wants to reclaim/restore/rework for the good in us. is he being knee-jerk in response to his painful past? trying to still overcompensate for apparent ‘weaknesses’ he feels threatening? i think so. it doesn’t take a rocket scientist/arm-chair psychiatrist to notice the cause+effect issues driving his theological emphases. maybe in this regard he still has some growing-up to do in the area of manhood & becoming more like Jesus…

     he is a work-in-process as we all are. he may be more visible in his journey because of the platform afforded him by those that put him there & keep him there. he does not appeal to everyone, nor do i think he appeals to many. but it seems his appeal is artificially inflated simply by the stage/celebrity/news worthy dynamic that tends to exaggerate the man & his foibles…

     anyway, a good approach to Driscoll’s appeal & his past. helps us understand the man better. thanx for the post CM…

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145. “I know lots of men both believer and unbeliever who would/will sit under a woman priest or pastor or boss/leader.”

     I find that the churches treatment of women, is one of the biggest stumbling blocks that hinder people coming to Christ. So I would find the opposite to be true when it comes to unbelievers.

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146. This ‘model’ of the Pastoral office is not my own creation, but taken from the scriptures and was commonly understood and accepted in the entire church for the better part of 1800 years.

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147. Let me guess if I can….if a woman is raped it’s her fault also? Am I correct? Please tell me that I’m wrong and that its the perpetrator who is responsible for that crime….

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148. In respect to salvation ‘there is no Jew or Greek, male or female.’ To apply that to the Pastoral office is to take it out of context. However, the Scriptures are clear on the qualifications Pastors, and they clearly forbid women from being Pastors. The Apostle Paul roots his argument in the creation and fall, not some cultural taboo.

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149. I think I just don’t get the concept of masculinity/femininity. The problem I have with most songs is that they are CRAP. Silly hallmark card lyrics. No depth, no profundity.

     Frankly, I don’t enjoy singing hymns either, though. My ideal service would be an hour of silence and prayerful meditation, like a Quaker meeting. Silence is so much deeper and real than any words we try to pin on god.

     But that’s me.

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150. Comments are not deleted for stupidity, but for breaking the rules. But I must say, with all due respect, that was a stupid comment.

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151. Actually … Roy Baumeister is a pyschologist who said that in the last twenty years domestic violence statistics indicate that women are becoming as violent as men with domestic abuse and in some ways have more reported incidents. But unless Kyle means that the domestic violence he’s talking about is violence against children then, no, he can’t really claim that there are more cases of domestic violence perpetrated by women against their men that I’m aware of. Then again, some Christians would say that the government is merely punishing good Christian parents for being willing to spank, which would be an entirely different set of debates.

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152. particularly, even.

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153. not my cup of tea. I’m a man. I’m not particular masculine or feminine. I’m just me. I don’t want to be held to some arbitrary cultural standard of behavior. But if someone else feels so bound, maybe this guy can help them. *shrugs*

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154. But there are so many outside that perspective it makes me wonder…does Mark Driscoll drive them away from Christianity and God in the process?

     And this would include a lot of men who are not gay, or even leaning that way, but who just don’t ‘do camo’, who aren’t into mercenary video games, who’d rather do tofu than venison. What if you have a ‘man purse’ and it doesn’t phase you one little bit ?? Is church still for you ? Can you still follow Jesus relentlessly ?? Does the gospel always look like William Wallace ??

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155. Exactly.

     It almost seems that Driscoll is attempting to turn all men into the kind of men he likes.

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156. Thanks, Damaris! Same to you!

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157. “Do big boys cry, do they come down
     From their place on high, to the dirty ground?
     Well, what do I do, I’m a big boy, too

     They claim fault now and then
     In speeches on humility
     But do they step down from the stage?
     Go forward, confess to the crime
     Weep with the victim?

     Do big boys cry, are they a step beyond
     Shouting ’bout right, but living wrong?
     Well, what’ll I say, I’m just that way

     There’s got to be a break down
     A healing in the tears
     There’s got to be a phone call
     Break habits
     One has to apologize, even to the little guys”

     – excerpt from “Do Big Boys Cry” by Daniel Amos

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158. Not to mention, the NT clearly calls all believers, not just all male believers, to bear the image of Christ and be imitators of Christ. And when God created humanity in God’s own image, God made humanity male and female, as God encompasses both. Further, John associates Jesus with the personification of Wisdom in Proverbs, and other Jewish wisdom literature, yet Wisdom is clearly presented as being female. . . . Paul names several woman as clergy in the NT . . . Jesus anointed the women at the tomb to be his first preachers of the gospel. There is no disconnect.

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159. “Other times, I think he’s a post-modernist presented in a different way, wrapped up in a cool jacket and tight t-shirt, with a reformed theology bow keeping the whole package tied loosely together. Problem is, packages wrapped in pop culture paper aren’t as popular next Christmas as they are this holiday season.”

     I like your writing style, Lee.

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160. I’m assuming he’s referring to songs, the lyrics of which could just as easily apply to one’s boyfriend/girlfriend. My husband complains about that, too, and flat out refuses to sing them. I hear people defend them by pointing to Biblical imagery of the Church as Christ’s Bride; but I don’t know that that’s enough of a support for it. Christ also calls us his friends, but in the same breath talks about how we live as His servants. It’s a complicated relationship, and boiling it down to “just” friend or lover seems lacking.

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161. I know some men in ministry who target men and men’s ministry. They feel like that is their calling. I think that’s fine. However, in the local church I think all groups should be included. If all you ever hear is about men’s ministry or women’s ministry or children’s ministry, somebody is being left out. Preaching the Word strongly and truthfully and living it in daily life should draw people in to the church. Jesus sought people where they were and appealed to them in whatever station life had put them. Tax collectors, Roman Centurions, prostitutes, housewives, fishermen–He drew them all and met them where they were. Maybe our problem with men (or women) not coming to church is because we are not strongly preaching God’s Word, and specifically the Gospel message.

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162. I’ve always seen the Proverbs 31 woman as a businesswoman, not a stay-at-home-mom, which is cognatively dissonant for a lot of evangelicalism, IMHO. I’ve never paid much attention to Driscoll or any of the rest of the YRR community, so I have no opinion personally, but I’m pretty sure I would be heading for the door before the end of one of his sermons. But that happens in every evangelical church I’ve attended in the last 3 years, so it wouldn’t be anything special.

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163. Its also like that in churches in Northern Virginia as well. I’m sorry you were hurt. But when I was a fundegelical I hung around in reformed circles, and I can see why he is popular in those circles.

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164. Not only that…but discussion of sexual sins can come back to haunt you. My confession left me being clobbered. Its also treated as if that’s THE only sin. This hit me like a ton of bricks when I was working with the homeless in Washington, D.C. and I realized how many sins were never touched on.

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165. >>Can one be an egalitarian…and still have an effective ministry among all kinds of men? . . . Concerning egalitarianism, probably not. . . . I know lots of men both believer and unbeliever who will not sit under a woman priest or pastor.<<

     Ignoring our clear disagreement on your characterization of egalitarianism, I know lots of men both believer and unbeliever who would/will sit under a woman priest or pastor or boss/leader. So, whether or not you know people who will do that doesn't mean an egalitarian MAN cannot have an effective ministry among all kinds of men. Could a woman effectively lead a men's ministry? Probably not any better than a man could lead a woman's ministry. So the two issues are not the same.

     Regarding men sitting under a female priest or pastor, how 'bout "humble yourselves in the sight of the LORD". There is neither male nor female, and when a woman stands in witness to Christ, there can be no disconnect because it is Christ, His Spirit, who is shining forth through her, the same as for any man. If that's not true, than a male pastor is boasting in something more than Christ–his maleness.

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166. “especially when one considers that much domestic violence is instigated by women.”

     your comment should be deleted.

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167. Just wanted to add that there’s a secondary effect, too: those who grew up in those youth times and DID want to grow in worship often found themselves changing to more liturgical denominations, taking themselves out of the evangelical sample set.

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168. I don’t see how a song can be masculine or feminine. They are just words. They don’t have a gender.

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169. andrew, kinda a microcosm of the OP. 😉

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170. “Can one be an egalitarian, not stress “macho” Christianity, practice the historic liturgy and ministries of the church, and still have an effective ministry among all kinds of men?”

     Quite possible. But why is it that, for so many, Driscoll’s ministry is 100% invalid until he reaches that point?

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171. I know next to nothing about Driscoll but here’s my take….

     Forget about the chuch feminizing men…..I have always believed that Christianity as a whole is a more feminizing religion where Islam is a more masculine. Christiantiy is more touchy/feely, which men (I am generalizing and stereotyping here, I know) generally have a harder time with. In my Catholic faith, and especially decades ago, it was the women who got the guys to church. There are a lot more women who volunteer and run the various groups. In my own home it was my wife who first went deeper in the faith – not in practice, but in deepness, while I was still stuck on the intellectual side. Then you have the whole love thing, turn the other cheek thing, and for us Catholics, from a social justice persepctive, we don’t even have the eye-for-an-eye thing going (all life is sacred from conception to death – meaning we don’t support the death penalty). Then you take it one step further on the Non-denom side with the Jesus is my boyfriend thing (do guys actually say that too?) and it gets too – well let me say this and take cover… too girly for me. Now give me a good ole saint who had to endure torture and I am grounded again (kidding).

     Counter that with Islam which has as its tenets that you can fight the infidel if he is a threat to your faith….

     I don’t hear much about authoritarianism, complementaryism, and other isms that put men above women (and I don’t practivece that in my home, lest I get hit with a pan by my italian wife). We do have the whole men only clergy, but aside from that women run the show at the local level.

     My two cents….

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172. No, if you go back to his earlier sermons, he would often brag about how he didn’t even know how to use the vacuum cleaner because his wife was his helper, not the other way around. He makes a big show of railing against abuse of women because he cares about it, yes, but also to deflect from the very accurate accusations of chauvinism.

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173. A lot of the time when you see something hideous in the way of interior decorating in a church it’s because of some colorblind guy on the building committee who was given the responsibility of picking out color from a bunch of swatches. Although, I must admit, I’ve had the, uh, privilege of being at a number of women’s conferences over the years (traveled with a worship band), and I’ve seen a lot of interior desecration at those things as well. Bad taste is an equal opportunity thing as far as it relates to different genders.

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174. John Eldredge made some good points in his book Wild at Heart, but I think Mark Driscoll notches it up a few notches and drives it over a cliff.

     One other thing about Driscoll that I wonder about is this…I have a friend of mine who is gay. We were in the same small group together years ago. I’m not active in Christianity anymore and he’s pushed back from evangelical Christianity as he dealt with his homosexuality. Does Mark Driscoll’s comments about what “masculine” is hurt and drive away those who are gay like my friend? Does it drive them deeper into the gay lifestyle if they know they can’t be a part of such a community?

     I was thinking about this but what does his comments mean for those outside the intended message. Yes if you are in your 20’s and that type of masculine preaching is attractive. But there are so many outside that perspective it makes me wonder…does Mark Driscoll drive them away from Christianity and God in the process?

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175. I listened to Driscoll’s sermons for a few years while I was bedbound, and though he’s not my cup of tea, he’s also not calling men out for being humble and godly as too weak.

     He is looking at a protestant church culture where women are disproportionately represented. Compared to the general population man/woman split, a noticeably higher percentage of church attenders are women. The percentages skew more and more as you go up the ladder of responsibility until you hit the level where various people’s doctrine limits the ability of women to take up the roll. So you have more women than men in church, significantly more women than men in prayer meetings/ministries, many more women support workers, etc all the way until the elder/pastor range where many denominations won’t have women in those roles. Matt Chandler once said something to the effect of “if you call a prayer meeting, you’ll get mostly women, even busy ones like single moms, but if you announce a BBQ, the men will finally show up”.

     Then look at the broader 35 and below culture, which is the focus of Mark’s ministry. Guys in particular have an extended adolescence, working basically just to pay for their ability to play video games or engage in hobbies. Even married guys my age are generally entertainment addicts, and in most cases their wives work and do all the necessary home stuff too.

     Driscoll’s coarse approach doesn’t appeal to me, but there is an audience who it reaches well and who he’s well called to.

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176. I’ve heard that one, too. I find it interesting, though, that I viewed it as a backlash to people who view women as inferior because it was their fault that sin entered into the world. Either way, I view teachings that try to make either sex more innocent or guilty of original sin as flawed.

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177. [The ?’s were supposed to be music notes, but they don’t seem to show up on here.]

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178. Excellent. I get so tired of hearing bad church decor and music on women. I’ve never met a woman who actually liked any of that stuff. Like someone mentioned above, it’s more like a man wrote those songs and decorated the church thinking that women would like it, but nobody thought to actually ask a woman…and now we’re all blamed for it 🙂

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179. ? ? “It’s an-I-mals! A-N-I-M-A-L-S. It’s an-I-mals! A-N-I-M-A-L-S.” ? ?
     A little Gwen Stefani there, for ya. Not sure how it relates, but that’s what popped into my head. 🙂

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180. I think that reading about his childhood and his family definitely gives me another perspective of his view of men and masculinity. I understand his point of view better, even though I don´t agree with it.

     On my side of the world (South America), most of the churches I have been to have a majority of women. So, it makes sense that a lot of churches respond more to the demands or tastes of woman. I do think that a lot of churches don´t focus much on men because we are the hardest group to attract and this should change. I think the first step to making a change is talking about issues like this. If we don´t talk about our needs as men, about the spaces we need or feel more comfortable in, then nothing is going to happen.

     Thanks for posting this and having this space for us to debate this topic.

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181. Great, Michael. Very good points.

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182. For nearly 40 years I’ve directly worked for male bosses and female bosses. Our agency has sometimes been headed by a woman and sometimes by a man. One assignment had me being almost the only male in a nearly all-female environment, including my supervisor, for a year. I couldn’t tell any difference between/among them re: their behaviors and styles or effectiveness or ineffectiveness or how our office was run that was or would be gender-based.

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183. Thank you.

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184. Setting the TONE, that should say.

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185. “At our former church they had a men’s ministry that met on Saturday mornings. It started with a book study and then developed into a regular thing. My husband attended for a while but gave up because the small group discussions were all about the other men talking about their struggles with porn, sex, etc.”

     In the last community group I was involved with at my current church, I dreaded the time when it came for men and women to break up into separate groups at the end of the evening. With the leader setting the time, it almost always devolved into confession of sin regarding sexual matters. I have no problem with someone confessing this if it is indeed a problem for them, but it limited the scope of the discussion. Men are full human beings, and struggle with other things, like gluttony, despair, depression, etc. As well also, I have never been comfortable discussing my sexual life in front of other people, be they of the same gender or the opposite one.

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186. I’m no Driscoll apologist – at all. But these are men that Driscoll would like to reach. He is all about getting on “lazy, worthless, do nothing men”. Really.

     I also doubt that he really cares who does the dishes. And he wants the men involved with their children. Really.

     Still, I’m not a fan of the guy.

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187. “I really like men, but I like them better when they’re being men, not yelling about being men.’

     But Driscoll really, really, really likes men.

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188. Yup…the male refused to offer leadership to the female in the Garden of Eden. He refused to stop her from “eating the fruit” and could be held responsbible for sin entering the world. I heard that in different reformed circles that I used to hang out in.

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189. And how was Adam to “take the lead” over Eve?

     FGM and burqa?

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190. I’ll say it again, everything David C. posts is a gem!!

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191. I’ve observed some interesting things since retiring and moving onto part of a farm. Barnyard language is a real and natural thing to most of them. They live every day wading in manure, tracking it around, watching the breeding of animals, nurturing them with feed, care and medicine, breeding them, watching them give birth (and assisting). Some of these animals they become very attached to, like pets. Then eventually they see them die and have to deal with the carcass. Some of the words they use describe these things are very earthy and easy to understand.

     My grandson this year will be taking his last 4-H bull to show in the fair. He’s done this now for many years. They become absolute beautiful pets. But the winners are paid big prices for for these animals and they will not be alive very long. Some of these kids cry like babes when the animals are sold and leave them. The kids grow up learning about sex, life, death, love, and grief. Often their language reflects this. But many of them also have tender hearts.

     And as you said David, equipment problems lead to some “interesting phrases.”

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192. The quiche refers to a famous book some years back, “Real Men Don’t Eat Quiche”. I have no problem with men, or women, who hunt; my problem is with anyone trying to pigeonhole either gender and proscribing a narrow definition of what either should do or be. Men are quite welcome in my church to talk about their latest hunt, or their latest venture of any kind. I do think, from what I have read of Driscoll’s statements, that he is indeed saying what makes a man. And defining the “proper” role of a woman.

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193. Psychologist Roy Baumeister would suggest that the reason there are more initiation rites for males than females is because in evolutionary and reproductive terms males are expendable. They have to “earn” their status as men by producing more than they consume so they can be seriously considered for the mating game. Even those that do mate frequently end up as genetic dead ends which paradoxically means that male/masculine societies create social systems in which members are replaceable and disposable and whose lives are often invested in high risk/high yield activities that can often end in failure.

     One of the challenges inherent in Driscoll’s take on masculinity, even for those who could agree with much of his aims, is that the masculinity he prizes and describes as needing more approval in the church is of the most alpha variety. Men in their 20s who have their futures ahead of them, and men who are married will see this in more positive terms. Men in their 30s who have never married or who are also in dead end careers in the midst of the “mancession” are not going to see Driscoll’s message in the same way. He could be construed as targeting the males who will be tomorrow’s winners rather than today’s (or yesterdays) losers. I know from my own life that it’s easy to imagine a whole future ahead of you at the age of 20 that doesn’t materialize by the time you’re 35.

     Guys who are already married or have some upward trajectory in their lives can hear Driscoll and say he’s saying the right stuff. But I’ve seen ex-Mars Hill guys who are still single ten years later and very bitter. Folks whose upward trajectory stalls or takes a nosedive stop perceiving Driscoll’s rhetoric in the same way. There are a lot of things Driscoll is going for that i can agree with but his preference for talking about masculinity from the position of an obviously alpha male limits him. In the earliest years when he was working part time and really accountable to other people (as in he had actual bossses) he didn’t have quite so lopsided a take on what masculinity meant. 2001 was the tail end of that period, I think. Full disclosure, I attended from late 1999 to late 2008.

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194. I want to know where these girlie chickafied fushia and baby blue churches are? I’m in rural Virginia, and I think Mark Driscoll would be right at home in many of our Evangelical Churches. I used to go to a church where they would joke from the pulpit about putting women in their place. Women who left abusive marriages were often bullied into going back by the church. Made fun of a man because he helped his wife by changing the baby’s diaper. They were all like, “Do you do dishes too?” Women were constantly preached at about how men were the head and we were supposed to submit while they never said jack about how men were supposed to love their wives as Christ loved the church – even unto death. They never talked about how to be Christlike you had to serve just as Christ did. They talked about ruling your wife. They also never said jack about the lazy, worthless, do nothing men who were happy to let their wives go out and work to support them while they lazed around at home playing video games – and not helping with the house work or the kids because that was women’s work.

     Men like Mark Driscoll are the reason I left.

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195. Not a judgement – an observation that, to me anyway, seemed to go opposite of what was being said in the post we’re commenting on…… believe me there’s a lot of “mickey mousing” going on in churches these days.

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196. “Churches need to help men grow, not beat them over the head for things like spouse abuse that 98% of men in the congregation have never done – especially when one considers that much domestic violence is instigated by women.”

     Excuse me??? I think you need to come up with an accurate cite for your assertion there, and I mean real statistics and research not some cheesy personal story.

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197. The company I work for now is owned by two women, and, honestly I enjoy working for them than any other boss I’ve ever had. There are insecure and domineering men just as there are insecure and domineering women. Men can be just as emotionally manipulative as women. And also, I’d add that the women I know who are pastors have different challenges than men. In many ways they are in a Catch 22. If they are too quiet and reserved people say, “this is why we need a man. We need someone who can take charge!”. On the other hand, if they do try to take more charge, there are people who accuse them of being manipulative and being a b*tch.

     If there were a man in my church in a leadership position who told me he refused to serve under a woman, I would assume he wasn’t mature enough to be in that position then.

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198. At our former church they had a men’s ministry that met on Saturday mornings. It started with a book study and then developed into a regular thing. My husband attended for a while but gave up because the small group discussions were all about the other men talking about their struggles with porn, sex, etc.

     My jokey nickname for it is “manly men” because it’s all about being REAL MEN, whatever that means. So I would say, “How was manly men today?” He and I thought it was funny but I made the mistake of saying that in front of some of the other guys at church and they definitely did NOT get it.

     I think what can be harmful to men about stuff like this is that they seem to preach about one way to be a “manly man.” How limiting.

     Sort of like the ideal of the “proverbs 31 woman” that is constantly being preached at women.

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199. I agree that this has far more to do with a culture which worships youth. Viewing manhood in terms of “macho” activities rather than “manning up” as Becky stated so well in her comment seems to still be stuck in that youth-oriented culture. To be a man, you have to grow up. Part of growing up requires taming the ego in order to look out for the good of ones family and neighbors.

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200. LIKE this:
     The fuchsia and baby blue decor? Again, misdiagnosed. It’s not too feminine–it’s too safe. It’s too suburban. It’s too Thomas Kinkade

     this is the part of John Eldredge that I agreed with. Problem is, you don’t have to become a christianized Randy Savage to counteract it. The right response to ‘niceness’ is not nastiness, but a clearer picture of who Jesus is and what (WHOM) HE is calling us toward. Some version of ‘anti-niceness’ is going to get warped in a hurry, IMO.

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201. Well, if the point of the Mickey Mouse shirt was to look stupid – it worked. When I saw it I thought, “Wow! That’s a real manly shirt! I think I had one just like it when I was in junior high.”

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202. As someone who is prone to rush to judgment, I appreciate your gentle rebuke here, Andrew; thanks.

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203. I don’t have any real issue with hunting – I grew up in a pretty rural part of Pennsylvania and live in Minnesota now. It’s not something I’d like to spend my free time doing, though. I don’t think it makes one any more or less of a man if he kills things, especially when the killing we’re talking about a lot of the time isn’t really a matter of a man actually providing for his family. I know many hunters who are simply like grown boys. And I guess that’s the sticking point for me – the things that Driscoll is holding up as being defining of manhood – hunting, sports, ultimate fighting, etc. – seem like an extension of the American phenomenon of perpetual adolescence to me.

     Certainly, things like being loyal to your family and caring for the children you’ve fathered are ideals I would support, but I just have a hard time following how he’s getting from point A to point B. I suppose he figures he can lure guys into the church with one thing and then teach them in these other areas. In that respect, it’s not really any different from what seeker churches have been doing for a long time.

     I also would say that some of the men who are my role models have many traits that Driscoll would probably point to as effeminate. My dad, for one, is a pastor, but he’s also an artist, plays piano, and I’ve seen him break down and cry a number of times – *gasp* even in a church service! I also think of the pastor of the church we had to leave when we moved a few months ago. The pastor was big guy, but he also had the most tender heart of anyone I’ve ever met. He certainly wasn’t effeminate in anyway that I would use the word, but he spoke all the time of intimacy with the Father. Does this make his manhood suspect?

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204. oops , that’s TIM Keller

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205. Anyone have first hand knowledge about Time Keller and Redeemer up in NY. ?? He came to mind with the question about “who seems to be doing a good job with this…”

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206. I heard Driscoll once at Southeastern, speaking on the form and substance of what we as pastors are teaching, and how the form doesn’t matter so much, as long as we are true to the substance of the Gospel. He’s a compelling speaker, but when I left, I sort of had the feeling I often have when I hear really great presentations…”Was he really that sharp, or did I just hear him regurgitate something he heard someone else say, the same thing he says over and over, only I just heard it for the first time, so I’m impressed?”

     Looking at what Driscoll is doing from a great distance, I would almost call what he’s doing “Promise Keepers with Attitude”. The true test of Driscoll’s ministry will be in its lasting power. He’s sold a lot of books, and certainly influenced a young generation of pastors, but how long will it be cool to preach in a Mickey Mouse t-shirt? When he’s 70 and has no behind left to hold up those skinny jeans, will he still be “relevant”? Mark Galli was writing on the liturgy, and said it defies “the narcissistic notion on which much of modernity hangs: that this is the most important era in human history”. I often wonder if it’s that type of narcissism that drives a guy like Driscoll, just because of his swagger and presentation, you know?

     Sometimes I really like Driscoll. Other times, I think he’s a post-modernist presented in a different way, wrapped up in a cool jacket and tight t-shirt, with a reformed theology bow keeping the whole package tied loosely together. Problem is, packages wrapped in pop culture paper aren’t as popular next Christmas as they are this holiday season. Are we still going to be reading his books in 10, or even 5, years? Or making him the subject of blog posts? Time will tell.

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207. Has the church been ignoring men and failing to call them to repentance for sins of immaturity, immorality, and irresponsibility?

     I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I consider a much bigger problem to be “absentee dads” in this area: no real discipleship, but a lot of yelling and screaming from the pulpit to shape up and do x, y, and z. I’m not including Mark D. in this, I have no idea what he preaches, really, or very little idea.

     What we’ve lacked is men, and women, to ‘come along side’ and SHOW people how to live, to walk with them in everyday situations and show them the Jesus way, the godly option. This takes one heck of a lot of time, and has NO guarnateed result. Hence: we’d rather just preach sermons about it and mayb a Wild at Heart weekend or two…. and call it good.

     A strong word about irresponsibility or immaturity would mean a lot more to me coming from a wise friend who knows me, and who has earned a position of influence and trust in my life. Those words will be ‘iron sharpening iron”.

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208. I will say, that story of Driscoll’s childhood does make me understand much better where he’s coming from and what he’s trying to do. I still think his approach is wrong, though.

     Evangelicalism is often a deeply violent religion. Our worship manipulates the emotions. Our evangelism seeks to overpower the intellect with arguments and debate, the heart with shame or an emotional appeal, and doubt with miracles or signs of the Spirit. We have committed violence against the poor, against the earth, against minorities, and against certain categories of “sinners” through indifference, exclusion, or hate speech. We do violence to ourselves by trying to “fix” ourselves through pure force of will and hating ourselves for failing. We harm those who are struggling in life by offering pat answers and quick fixes. We are quick to make enemies and to judge others, even other Christians. And of course, we encourage violence in more obvious ways by supporting the military and accepting torture.

     That underlying violent impulse taints everything we do as evangelicals. It is something entirely contrary to the teachings and example of Jesus. It is something we must repent of. And not just in surface-level ways like being more concerned about social justice; we must repent of all our attempts to coerce, to manipulate, to overwhelm, to control, to judge, to shame, or to “fix” others. For men, that will probably mean appearing less “masculine” in our actions, when viewed by our culture’s standards.

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209. Does Driscoll have a point about feminization of the church? Well…let me put it this way. I’ve heard him rail against “feminized” or “chickified” Jesus-is-my-boyfriend worship songs that are dominant in the church. And CM mentioned in this post about his complaint about the churches decor–fuchsia and baby blue. And the idea that the whole church is too oriented towards women and children. I agree with him, in that the soppy songs, pastel decor, and family driven focus are symptomatic of a problem. BUT, I think he wildly misdiagnoses the problem.

     The problem with Jesus-is-my-boyfriend music isn’t that it’s feminine. (Feminine is good–50% of the people God died for are, in fact, female.) It’s that the theology sucks. When we talk about God’s love, the natural assumption today is that it is something akin to romantic love, which is then reinforced by all the marriage analogies in the Bible. Of course, it never flits across anyone’s mind that marriage 2500 years ago in the Middle East was slightly different than marriage in America today, and that all those analogies had the former concept of marriage in mind, not the latter. So when idealized, romantic, marital love is our basis, of course our songs about God’s love are going to be about “secret places” and how God makes us feel.

     The fuchsia and baby blue decor? Again, misdiagnosed. It’s not too feminine–it’s too safe. It’s too suburban. It’s too Thomas Kinkade–like those pictures of a well-coiffed Jesus spooning a lamb. Just as church people can so often mask over reality with a generic friendly pleasant face, so we paint our churches with a generic friendly pleasant color. Those beige, muted pastel walls deny the presence of sin and suffering more powerfully than any Joel Osteen sermon could ever hope for. (The medieval choice of cold hard stone, topped with gargoyles, and shot through with radiant stained glass art was not an accident.) But they aren’t feminine–they’re bourgeois.

     And as for the church being too family oriented–well, IM has done numerous articles about how the single pastor and the single person in general have no home in the evangelical church. And I want to retch every time I’m flipping through the radio and the “Christian” station’s main tag is “safe for the whole family.”

     But that’s why Driscoll’s so influential, I think. He’s seen the symptoms of a lot of things that are wrong about evangelicalism; and when he rants against them, he strikes a chord. But he’s misdiagnosed the overall disease. He views it as a dearth of manliness; thus, he goes too far the other direction, and suddenly “feminine” goes from God’s wonderful creation, to a pejorative term that represents everything weak and wrong with the world today.

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210. I do not listen to or read any of Mark Driscoll’s sermons; I am familiar with his name and role at Mars Hill. I belong to a ‘mainline’ denomination, and am a bi-vocational pastor to some wonderful people. I do not mean this post as a criticism towards Driscoll or his theology, nor do I intend to critique his preaching. All I can do is to share my approach and understanding towards this topic.

     I believe that one should present, and I strive every day to maintain, a sense of fear and humility towards God. I realize it is only by the grace of God that I have salvation. I cannot possibly hope to attain this by any other means. When I preach to my congregants, as I pastor men, women and children, I attempt to do so with humility. As I study in preparation to preach each Sunday, I pray for God to help me understand the text, what God is actually saying, so I may be faithful to God and honor Him as I preach. I try with all my effort and faith in God to trust the Holy Spirit to demonstrate the implications of each passage for my parishioners as well as for myself. I do not intentionally try to ‘target’ any specific gender or demographic. I fully believe that God alone has the power to change one’s heart and spirit; I realize that if I make that my burden, I will fail most miserably.

     I also believe faithful preaching, accompanied by fidelity to God in the way one lives, allows those who hear the Scripture and sermon to find the speaker and the words credible, thus availing themselves to the workings of the Holy Spirit. I believe Christ’s message is for all people; so I desire all people who hear me preach to hear the Word of God and trust that God work in their hearts, minds and spirit for His glory. I can appreciate someone’s desire to see more men living under Christ’s covenant, but I do not agree with someone specifically targeting any gender in one’s preaching and ministry from the pulpit or podium during worship; I believe this should be approached through a different, focused ministerial approach- not from the pulpit or podium on Sunday on a routine basis. Just my thoughts. Thanks for the topic!

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211. Oh yeah…. I have the same problem with the ‘under so and so’s covering’ line of thought. Under a man (or woman’s, though its 99% of the time a man’s) covering ?? What about under the authority of the LORD of LORDS and the KING of KINGS ??

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212. In his response all I hear is how church is. I hear nothing of becoming like Christ or about him looking for Christ at these churches. He was looking for manly men and men like his dad. I don’t go to church for men. I go to church for Christ

     Wow, THAT”s an interesting and perceptive statement, except of course maybe he thought that Christ was just like his dad or other “manly men”. Interesting.

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213. You have nailed it. As a fellow academically inclined, sensitive singer, I relate.

     But this bothered me a lot for a very long time. I listened to Driscoll and read John Eldredge and I became very insecure and unsure of myself. I think I needed to question my assumptions about life and the period of self-doubt was very helpful.

     But I don’t see a lot of other people (men) wrestling with those questions in church. I think Driscoll definitely has a point. He is not always careful in how he makes it, but he has a point. I consider him to be too much on the authoritarian side, but I appreciate his witness, his commitment to reach men and his herculean efforts in one of the least “Christian” areas of the U.S.

     While the rest of us avoid the issues the kinds of people that make us insecure about ourselves, Driscoll’s taking it head on without fear. Good for him.

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214. Thankfully I have learned to NOT have a mouthful of java when reading my morning IMONK…. ZING, Mr.C…..Zing….

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215. @The Guy from Knoxville:

     The shirt was worn during a sermon series that had to do with vain interests, idol worship, and the attraction to pop-culture. It was supposed to look ridiculous. That was the point.

     A series particularly worth checking out is the 1 & 2 Peter series called Trial. He wears business attire, like a lawyer from the ’40’s in it. This is standard stuff for Driscoll. He wants to immerse his congregation in experiences of the word that engage all the senses, and he can get away with it in Seattle. Wouldn’t work where I live, but the guy is a master contextualizer.

     For a little about our obsession with what our preachers wear: http://vintage73.com/2011/01/whyisthepastorwearingthat/

     Think before you post: Could there have been a good reason to for “so-and-so” to have done/said/worn that? It is important to ask these questions before rushing to judgement and jumping to conclusions.

     ~a

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216. “As I was told if men took the lead, led the woman, etc.. than sin would not have entered the world.”

     REALLY? Someone taught this??? Oh wow! This commenter is speechless!

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217. Thanks, Rick, but I think you’ve already done it yourself!

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218. Evangelicals don’t do discipleship, and they are also selective about what requires repentance and what is sinful. You commit certain sins, your fine, you commit other sins, you’re screwed. Basically the church is subjective about what is sinful.

     You are correct in your view of chruch “feminization”. How could that be done in a church being lead by men? In the circles I was invovled in could a women be a pastor? No. There were eyebrows raised and questions asked when a woman taught Sunday school or another class. The only approprite class for a woman, in the environment I was in was women’s ministry. In Crusade I’ve heard of stories where single women left leadership (in which case they were working with women) because they felt it was too dominated by men, or they felt out of place when all the females were at home raising kids being a “Super Mom”. So when Driscoll harps on feminization and I think of how many men lead in evangelicalism in the churches I was invovled (Third Wave Charasmatic, Baptist, etc.. ) and I wonder…what planet is he on?

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219. GREAT POST. thoughtful, helpful. thanks.

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220. Hahaha!

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221. Damaris, I can see why you are a contributor and not just a commenter. Well said.

     I think you may be onto something with infantilism (spell check doesn’t like that word). I have said previously that Evangelicals have converted “adult” worship into an extended Youth Rally. Part of that is due to the emphasis on Youth Ministry in the 70’s through the 90’s and now that these kids are adults, (with no rites of passage, as you point out), they expect to maintain that same adolescent style of worship.

     I think you have something here and I believe you could really develop this into a strong topic, maybe title it Spiritual Neoteny: Paedomorphic Christianity in an Adult World. Topics could include:
     – How our worship refuses to grow up: Kiddie tunes and action songs on Sunday Morning instead of 4-part harmony and spiritual depth
     – Milk instead of meat: Why a moralistic Christless Christianity dominates pulpit discourse
     – Dressing to be cool: Why it is hip not to put off the “old man with his deeds” and avoid “putting on the new man who is renewed in the knowledge of him who created him”

     I’m sure you can develop more topics on your own, but I think you have really hit the nail on the head with this comment – It isn’t feminizing of the church, but infantilizing it that has resulted in the current state of evangelical worship.

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222. I live in England. I just heard Mark Driscoll the once, when he came to London earlier this year. There are many areas where I’m sure I would not agree 100% with what he says.
     But he spoke as if what God says matters. He spoke as if God requires obedience as a sign of faith and if we hear the word and walk away unchanged then there is something wrong. He held his listeners accountable. I love that.
     I also agree with him on modern Christian songs – most men don’t want to sing all about falling in love with Jesus.
     If we are to judge him on his words, let’s get in context, see who he’s speaking to, and see how it changes those who listen. If men are being called to be true disciples of Christ, then what have we to say against him?

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223. People like simple answers, because its easier to operate in that mentality. But when you have “authoritarian” men taking charge after some of what I have seen it gives me chills. What is needed more is humility and taking ownership for one’s mistakes, and decisions, etc…

     In one of the churches I attended a lack of authoritarian male leadership led to sin in the Garden of Eden. As I was told if men took the lead, led the woman, etc.. than sin would not have entered the world.

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224. Biblically, egalitarianism has problems, not the least of which is the pastoral office’s emulation and representation of Jesus. Pastors are literally standing in for Christ while ministering to the people. When a woman stands in that place, there is a disconnect.

     Maybe the problem is not with egalitarianism but with this “model” of the “office” of the “pastor” and hence the “role” that such a person in such a position is assumed or supposed to take. I.e., why is the so-called “pastor” somehow supposed to emulate and represent Jesus more than the so-called “laity”? Why is he/she somehow supposed to “stand in for Christ” as almost a human mediator between the “unordained” and God?

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225. Peggy,

     I wonder why the both/and only goes one way.

     You say men can eat quiche, cook, and serve it. Well, why not venison too?

     I’m also curious as to why it is a “macho pose” as you put it. Could it be that there are some guys who genuinely like shooting sports, trash talk, sports, and loud cars? Neither I nor Driscoll are saying that’s what makes a man, but what he is saying is that treating things that genuinely interest men as some sort of mental defect is both emasculating and harmful to men and results in alienating them from church.

     Let me ask this. How welcome would a guy be in your church if he tried to engage the Sunday School class in a conversation about his latest deer hunt. And for the record, in my Sunday School class, where I use hunting illustrations, they resonate more with the girls in my class (who have shot more deer than the guys) as much as with the guys.

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226. Late night brain fart…what I was also saying is that the idea of masculinity, God, etc.. was discussed extensively in retreats, chruch programs, etc… John Eldredge and other authors were used in this effort. So when the claim is that the church is more femaine and not masculine enough, it makes me wonder how someone could ay that; howver to be fair I was invovled in some pretty conservative reformed ciricles where Driscoll was popular. My acountability partner and others I knew read and listened to him.

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227. Society in many ways IS feminized. American women polled over the last few years have said they would rather have a girl than a boy baby, generally offering that life is just easier for girls. (Look up Hanna Rosin and The Atlantic Monthly.) Women outnumber men at almost every university to the point where some universities are quietly practicing affirmative action and admitting less qualified male students in order to maintain at least a 40/60 ratio between men and women. The college classes I teach — some of which are required freshman classes — are overwhelmingly women. And I teach at a technical/community college.

     And at church? Well, it is complicated, and I don’t think we really know what true masculinity and femininity are. But our hymnal has abandoned four-part music scores (Because people are suddenly too dumb to read music? Because it takes too much paper?) and my baritone husband has to jump octaves to sing a tune that suits my voice perfectly.

     An anthropologist (Jared Diamond) commented some years ago that societies have typically found it harder to “make” men than to “make” women. More societies have male than female initiation rites, for example, and the men’s tend to be harder than the women. Diamond (who is not sexist, as far as I can find) suggests that femininity is in some way the “default” mode of human existence, whereas historical masculinity requires effort and cultural pressure. If that’s true, a society like ours that has abandoned any rites of passage, that doesn’t withhold sexual gratification from anyone who wants it, that doesn’t put a premium on physical courage and self-sacrifice is a society that has become “feminized” in the anthropological sense.

     Or maybe it’s more useful to consider that society has been infantilized, not feminized. Are people aware that several government agencies, for the purposes of their work, allocations, etc., have defined “youth” as anyone up to the age of 35?

     Nonetheless, I find Driscoll’s take on these complex subjects to be limited and, as others have said, more suggestive of past hurts than of deep insight. I really like men, but I like them better when they’re being men, not yelling about being men.

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228. Thank you. I don’t agree with the macho teaching (although I am in Britian and I suspect he loses in translation) but your graceful post has helped me to ‘get’ him.

     I can see and I can applaud his missiological desire- we can all learn from that. And yes, certain modes of mainstream christianity can be feminising IMHO (I was in a group planning worship last night and we were looking at songs we had sung; which were keepers and which had to go. We came to ‘When I look into your holiness, when I gaze into your lovliness’ and thought ‘I can no longer sing songs like that as a man’).

     Of course, he comes across to me as too dismissive of other versions of masculinity and I cannot take the whole complimentarian thing seriously. But yet he gives a voice to a type of masculinity that is looked down/denied in many church circles.

     Thanks for this post and the comments: I learned a lot.

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229. Matthew, it’s a little more the other way around as Doug Wilson’s writing have played a formative role in Driscoll’s approach. Think of Driscoll as a Doug Wilson without paleo-Confederate sympathies. You can trust me that Driscoll and Wilson differ substantially on the Civil War. And i agree that the Orthodox church has those things, too but for an evangelical Protestant like Driscoll that branch of Christianity isn’t necessarily on the radar.

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230. I’m a numbers man, so I think any observation of stats of who is going to church may have something to say about how we do ministry.
     In Australia, women outnumber men in church 3 to 2.
     The older generations greatly outnumber the younger ones.
     Educated people are better represented than less-educated.
     Among educated people, some professions are much better represented.
     Full-time employed women are only as likely to go to church as men.

     A big area of study for me has been where Christians live in my city (see my link or that), noting that we have more choice over our address than age, sex or education level.

     A lot of the young men in church are like me – academically inclined, enjoy singing, sensitive. Nothing wrong with all of this. Only thing that’s wrong is that we’re failing to reach large sectors of the population.

     How to reach those we’re missing is of course the big question.

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231. Firstly, his view of what constitutes masculinity, and what does not seems to be highly culturally and chronologically defined (around Ike-era America). It occurs to me that 90% of men in the developing world would feel puzzlement over the idea that masculinity needed to be sharply defined in such a way. Okay, these are more patriarchal societies, but there is a certain lack of self consciousness about the ‘need to define oneself as male as opposed to’ .. well as opposed to what exactly?

     Secondly, when you line his statements up like that, it starts to sound like his manner is an apology against his own insecurities about Christianity being feminized.

     Lastly, it seems that he is trying to combat the effects of consumerism on the way in which men see adulthood. However, this is a universal problem affecting both men and women.

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232. I think you absolutely nailed it with this post.

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233. Does the testimony above give you any different perspective on Driscoll’s approach to masculinity and the church?

     1. Yes. He seems to clearly be reacting to bad past church experiences.

     2. He does. The church has been feminized and I do think he is correct on this point.

     3. Yes, it has been ignoring men in terms of teaching and discipleship in favor of women. No, it frequently criticizes and demonizes men while elevating women. Churches need to help men grow, not beat them over the head for things like spouse abuse that 98% of men in the congregation have never done – especially when one considers that much domestic violence is instigated by women.

     4. I can’t really think of examples. Churches I’ve attended have been merely okay about these.

     5. I’m not sure, but I doubt it. I’m a complementarian but I have problems with the meatheaded jock ideal of masculinity and feel it’s based on American, not Biblical, values. Churches do need to nourish men more, but they need to be flexible and realize not every guy is (or wants to be) a jock like Driscoll without abandoning the complementary view of relationships, which I think is correct if sometimes over-stressed.

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234. “Does he have a point about the “feminization” of the church? Are church organizations, buildings, programs, ministries, worship styles, preaching styles, etc., focused more toward women and children than they should be?”

     I noticed this about two decades ago. Churches, mainly those churches which don’t have a deep traditional liturgy, tend towards being ‘run by men, for women’ (which tends to be unsatisfying for both). The activities, music, decor, etc do tend to be feminine, but then so do the members. It can be a self perpetuating spiral: The members of the church are mostly female, so the life of the church reflects the life and needs of its members, so those with different lives don’t really fit in (no matter how welcoming the church tries to be), so the church tends to attract mostly females, and the life of the church continues to reflect the life and needs of its members….

     As a young man discovering his identity (20-25 years ago) I did feel that I needed to go outside the church for models of how a man could be. Not that there was a lack of good men in my church, but there seemed to be far fewer, and there was a subtle disconnect in those men between the ‘Sunday man’ and the ‘regular time man’, which I am pretty sure even they wouldn’t have particularly noticed. Most of the men were, sometimes incongruously, a bit ‘girlier’ on Sunday.

     “Can one be an egalitarian, not stress “macho” Christianity, practice the historic liturgy and ministries of the church, and still have an effective ministry among all kinds of men?”

     In my experience, yes. The only times I’ve run into troubles with this has been when the egalitarianism stopped at male/female egalitarianism. A church seems to be much more effective among all kinds of men (and possibly all people) when, regardless of the hierarchic structure (position), the hierarchic licence (power) is egalitarian and democratized.

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235. I at the least agree with his statement on many of the songs we sing (in contemporary evangelical circles) are femine. This is part of why it has been a great relief to find a church (reformed presbyterian) that sings exclusively psalms. One can’t say it is femine to sing psalm 110, plus it is challenging to any moderns theology to sing a psalm of imprecation.

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236. And so we all create our own denominations based on our experiences, fears and hopes…

     (I am not going to comment on Driscoll; I don’t know him)

     One thing that stands out to me is the disturbed balance within the churches I know: a majority of women and children led by men.

     Before you know it, the church might become preoccupied with trying to fix the balance (aware or not). Striving for more men, a more ‘masculine’ (what is that any way?) atmosphere, more men taking responsibility and so on has never been the given goal of the Church. Church is the people around you with whom you live and worship.

     Of course a local church could become very unbalanced due to its location and due to the fact that bird of a feather flock together but then so what? The only balances that should be maintained that I read about are referring to the spiritual gifts (Should all…).

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237. “The church is still largely led by men. The organizations, ministries, programs, and styles were largely instituted by men. The reason so many ministries are geared towards women is because ministries are based on what we have, not what we want:”

     But there’s a broad trend here the evangelical church has picked up from society. Churches tend to be led by men with white collar jobs. Blue collar folks are just not as cool, able, intelligent, etc.. enough to be in leadership positions.

     I don’t agree with this but it is what happens in our USA white culture and churches.

     Years ago my mother mad a statement after she heard one of her sons utter a MILD cuss word that “Her husband would never talk like that and would never take a job that had him be around men who talked like this being the good Christian he was.” Well the 3 sons got very quite and “dad” explained to mom that she was, err, just plain wrong. He word as a production manager for a plant to made nuclear fuel. Think of it as a high tech oil refinery in scope. 2600 people of all types.

     Mom didn’t say much for a few days. And to be honest I have no idea where she had been with her ears for the previous 20 years. Drive a tractor and fix implements with a 6 pound sledge and every now and again you’ll hear interesting phrases from most anyone.

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238. I have followed Mark Driscoll’s preaching for a few years. I have also read some of his books. I think he is an intelligent man who has a passion to reach people with the gospel who would not normally darken the door of a church. By God’s grace many men and women have come to faith in Christ through Mark Driscoll ‘s ministry. He systematically preaches through books of the bible. I regard Mark Driscoll as a ” Peter” character, someone with a big personality who is passionate about God but capable of big gaffes. He puts great emphasis on family life and is devoted to his wife and children. I am not a Calvinist and am not complementarian in theology so I am not in Mark Driscoll ‘s camp however I think he is a complex man. He is a product of a working class neighbourhood and his life and attitudes have been shaped by it. I raised my children in a similar area and see how it shaped Mark Driscoll as it shaped my children. Driscoll does not have a middle class gloss, he marries this with a fierce intelligence. He loves Jesus passionately yet it is his ” Peter ” moments that have been the focus of so much attention. I’m sorry if my thoughts seem a little disjointed I’m typing this on my phone.

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239. Can one be an egalitarian, not stress “macho” Christianity, practice the historic liturgy and ministries of the church, and still have an effective ministry among all kinds of men?

     Concerning egalitarianism, probably not. The other things on the list most men are fine with.

     Biblically, egalitarianism has problems, not the least of which is the pastoral office’s emulation and representation of Jesus. Pastors are literally standing in for Christ while ministering to the people. When a woman stands in that place, there is a disconnect.

     I know lots of men both believer and unbeliever who will not sit under a woman priest or pastor.
     The workplace has an ever increasing amount of rules and laws largely aimed at reigning in male behaviors. The same with schools and our society at large.

     In two of the most important aspects of our culture, marriage and children, the laws of the land render men virtually powerless.

     The last thing these guys want is a woman in charge reminding them of areas of failure in their lives on a weekly basis. It is one thing to have a man call you to account, man to man, at work or at church. Females tend to be more emotional and their attempts to do the same thing often look and feel more like nagging.

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240. As a woman and a person who tried to attend his church for about 6 months I have to say I think pretty much every thing he said is crap. First of all the worship is pretty much the same contemporary worship most evangelist-mega churches have so they sing all those “in love” kind of things too.

     Mostly though he doesn’t just preach men should man up. He teaches woman really are only created for men and that part of manning up is finding a wife who barres you children so that while she takes care of your home, you provide. Now I find nothing wrong with woman who are stay at home moms. I would like to be one some day. What I do have a problem with is the idea that is all woman are worth.

     In his response all I hear is how church is. I hear nothing of becoming like Christ or about him looking for Christ at these churches. He was looking for manly men and men like his dad. I don’t go to church for men. I go to church for Christ. Isn’t that a big problem in the American church, GOD has left the building because we are looking at/for earthly things all in the name of religion?

     This church doesn’t really affect the community. You hear the names of church’s out there all the time that help people, have food programs and such but you never hear people talk about how Mars Hill is influencing the city. I am sure that they do some good works and I know the people who are members of the church are good people but Mars Hill just isn’t the first or even 5th church that come to mind when you think of active in the city.

     All this said. I don’t know that I can get angry or judge him. His response makes it clear to me that he has some past injury or hurt he hasn’t dealt with. Christ knows we all have messes and I have faith in Him. For me the easiest thing is to just do what I did. Leave that church for one that serves and preaches Jesus not one that preaches about man.

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241. Churches for people who don’t want to go church, will always be popular, and cool, hip, personalities in those churches who are a reflection of the culture will remain popular as well.

     Can the Holy Spirit work in those kinds of churches with those kinds of pastors?

     Sure!

     It’s just not that apparent to me that He is.

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242. I have a lot of problems with the sort of chest-thumping “masculinity” that Driscoll promotes, and claims Jesus demonstrates. Mainly because I don’t see it in Jesus, and feel like Christians who are “aggro” (to use a bit of slang from my college days) are trying to mold Jesus in their own image, and not vice-versa.

     Driscoll believes Jesus is the sort of tough guy that could beat him up; he couldn’t respect a Lord that was otherwise. His Jesus is never, ever weak. Never. He’s always in absolute mastery of His emotions, actions, and circumstances. Jesus’s sovereignty is likely why Driscoll is a Calvinist. The idea of Jesus emptying or humbling Himself has to be reinterpreted as Jesus always being able to take up His power again at an instant—so that He’s never really submitting to circumstances or the Father’s will.

     Driscoll does not have a valid point about the “feminization” of the church because (1) his view on masculinity is too narrow, and (2) men that don’t fit it are not that way in order to appease women; they’re comfortable being that way. I myself am not into sports and manual labor and hiking and one-syllable Anglo-Saxon names (though I have one) and getting into fights. I got mocked a bit, growing up, by guys like Driscoll who felt I needed to meet their standards. I easily ignored them. Others haven’t found it so easy.

     The church is still largely led by men. The organizations, ministries, programs, and styles were largely instituted by men. The reason so many ministries are geared towards women is because ministries are based on what we have, not what we want: We have more women than men, so we appropriately have more women’s ministries. We don’t usually target men in evangelism because we don’t think of gender-profiling. Perhaps we should. But what appeals to Driscoll’s macho archetype doesn’t appeal to every man; and I’ve found it alienates more than a few of us.

     The church fails to call people to repentance for all sorts of things. Men’s issues too. I see too many sermons geared towards non-confrontational bible stories, cheerful encouragement, or evangelism. Not discipleship. Driscoll tries to disciple from the pulpit, and I suspect that explains his popularity. Just wish his emphases were a bit different.

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243. I get that he’s coming from a place and is in a community where his reaction to the lack of “masculinity” is needed in a lot of ways. But I think it would be beneficial for someone to help him recognize that when a pendulum gets away from one extreme, it ends up in the other, before eventually settling somewhere in the middle. And that’s fine for an individual’s journey. But if you’re currently on one end of the pendulum swing and promote that side of it as if it were the only place everyone should be at, then I think that’s dangerous. When you’re influencing a lot of people, it’s somewhat irresponsible to let people believe that your own personal paradigm is the only true way.

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244. *Violence is for animals. Late night typing typos.

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245. The thing I can’t understand is, I hate ‘those’ men. Not any particular one of course, but the idea of men being designed for a authoritarian purpose rubs me the wrong way. Ive had plenty of bad experience with authoritarian men, but it’s more than that. People simply aren’t so… simple that they can be categorized like that. Some men are stereotypically manly, others find it awkward, uncomfortable, or downright offensive.

     And I like being a soft guy. Chic flics are awesome, violence is animals, and veggies are really tasty!

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246. BTW, I love the second photo. Jazz hands!

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247. He has at least one good point. The church has sometimes failed in its ministry to men, and especially young men. But overall I think it’s a generalization. He’s made the mistake of taking something that has failed for him, reacting to it in an extreme, and it seems an angry way, and trying to turn it into a problem for everyone. And many men come from an extremely different background from the one he is describing.

     I’m retired in a rural area. My son-in-law is a farmer. He isn’t in the least bit feminine. He goes to a mainstream church and is active in some areas of church life. There are lots of men in that church who are very active. They like football, baseball, basketball, high school wresting, and hunting. They do a lot of hard work.

     A masculine man doesn’t have to always be telling everyone. Neither should more feminine men be demonized. Preachers have better things to preach about. I wonder if he believes in psychiatrists? I know one who is very masculine who is taking new patients.

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248. The guy likes to exaggerate a lot but if he can get men to come to church and hear the gospel then he’s doing a great thing…I believe that the church is a little on the feminine side because the women outnumber the men…you’ll notice lots of married women in church but you never see their husbands….. what’s up with that ?? Men like to hear testimonies from other guys that might include ‘macho’ activities and things that are of interest to men and how lives have been changed……the church needs to get ‘dangerous’ and be the leaders of our culture ..get out of our ‘comfort zones’. When was the last time you saw a painting/illustration of Jesus? It probably wasn’t the one where he is flipping over the tables of the money changers in the temple.

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249. How has the church feminized men? I never got this. Never…… Some of the books I didn’t toss were John Eldredge’s “Waking the Dead” , “Wild at Heart”. There is plenty of material out there that is similar, and I can’t tell you how many retreats I have been on where this was addressed. No offense but sometimes I think Mark Driscoll is in his own bubble. I heard quite abit about Jesus being masucline in men’s programs, etc… This I don’t get….

     As for holding men accountable for being immoral again it goes back to what I have said before. As a former Christian I have been crushed and broken for my confession of sin and lust. I had the shit kicked out of me, and I noticed it whereever I looked. Crusade, fundgelical mega church, etc… A culture has been created where people withdraw further and they hide their sins so they can survive in the evangelical culture. Grace doesn’t exist and until the church can comprehend and apply grace I think it should really shut up about morality. Too many people are hurt, and the church takes these wounded people pulls out a gun and executes them. It’s ugly, it’s repulsive and to hear this type of bullcrap makes my skin crawl because I always thought the church was for the sinner and the broken. Okay perhaps I was a fool for believing that at one point. But life moves on….

     The evangelical church is plagued by narcissim. It’s prevelent where ever you look, and the fundgelical culture has turned their superstar pastors into idols. I think Mark Driscoll enjoys the attention, and controversary and I think it drives him. Some of the stuff he has said over the years made me cringe. His comments about Ted Haggard’s wife after his fall in which he claimed that she didn’t open her barn door enough was outright bullshit. And yet people flock to him and enjoy him. That I can’t understand.

     I think he needs to learn some humility and understand some grace. As this culture gets more post modern and secular I see the comments and narcissim by those like Mark Driscoll going up a notch and the shrill increasing.

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250. Also, I think I know the church Pr. Driscoll is talking about finding in college (I’m not sure, but I think). And the pastor there does hunt–he grew up in rural Michigan, went to the Naval Academy, and lives in rural Eastern Washington. But he definitely isn’t a macho-man.

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251. “What examples can you give of churches and ministries that are reaching men without resorting to strict complementarian theology, ‘Warrior Jesus’ depictions, or ‘Wild at Heart’ emphases that are (it seems to me) out of balance in the other direction?”

     The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches. When I have witnessed evangelical families heading those directions, it is the man of the house leading them. And I there are plenty of good reasons that I have heard: ancient, mystery, beauty, order, etc.

     The pagan bigotries against women and children were defeated not by gladiator or spartan macho-ism, but by the icon of the holy family. Because the Son of God was born of a woman, all women are a sacred. Because the Son of God was incarnate as a baby, all babies are sacred. And Joseph is the emblem of Christian masculinity: obeying the angel’s message, bearing the scorn, and taking the Blessed Mother into his home, then escorting them to the safety of Egypt and back home again. If tradition is true regarding Mary remaining a virgin, then Joseph’s devotion to her had nothing to do with getting his endophin fix. It is a complete reversal of the cursed estragement between Adam and Eve. It is patriarchal, but not with man and the central ego of the family but the example of service, sacrifice, and courageous leadership. There is great danger in lifting any character from the context of scripture and elevating them to the archetype of masculinity or femininity. But to understand what manhood, womanhood, family, etc. mean from a Christian perspective, one must start with the Holy Family.

     I recommend visiting the Orestes Brownson website to read several of his articles on this subject.

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252. Thought the Micky Mouse shirt in the first photo was very revealing – goes against everything he’s saying in the sermon excerpts. No CM I’m with you – I don’t get it and I never saw men as weak in the churches I’ve been involved with. Just because a man was godly and humble did not mean they were weak to me – indeed I saw it as a point of strength but Mickey Mouse, again, says it all.

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253. do*

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254. Not to plug them, but Orthodox churches seem to have all those things. So does (or at least did, they’re getting into Driscoll now) the CREC Churches, like Leithart’s and Wilson’s.

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255. Real men can eat quiche; they can also cook it and serve it. Real men can hang drywall; they can also dry the dishes and change the diapers and sometimes be soft and tender. And they don’t have to do a macho pose, shoot stuff, talk tough, or love sports and loud cars and driving fast to be real men. I’m sorry Mark Driscoll had such a rough childhood, I respect his determination to get off the mean streets and take care of his family, but I hope and pray he can come into a fuller vision of all the variety of ways a real man can be a strong Christian worthy of following and emulating.

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