NOTE: This post is not about a certain well-known pastor, even though it involves the church he leads. In the discussion that follows, I am not interested in having us talk about this pastor personally. So don’t. Please keep the conversation on the subject of church discipline itself, more broadly. We focus on these articles because they present a detailed description of a church discipline process that gives us a rare inside look at how a congregation attempts to deal with Christian sin, repentance, and restoration in the church.
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In two emotionally-charged posts, Matthew Paul Turner has given a detailed account of the church discipline process in one well-known congregation. Here are links to the articles:
These pieces tell Andrew’s story. As a young man, Andrew set out on his own in an effort to find himself. So he moved to the big city and joined a well-known megachurch. He began dating a daughter of one of the elders and they became engaged. During their engagement, he spent an evening with an old fling and acted inappropriately. Feeling extremely guilty afterward, he confessed to his fiancee and another member of his small group. Then to his small group leader. Soon Andrew was involved in meeting after meeting in which he confessed other relational and sexual failures he had experienced in his life, including the fact that he and his fiancee had been intimate. A month later, he was informed in another meeting with a pastor and his small group leader that he was “under church discipline.” Soon he was sent a “church discipline contract” that listed the “background issues” (a list of his sins) and the “plan of discipline” they had set up for Andrew. (You can read the details of the contract at Turner’s first post.)
In the second article, we learn what happened next. Andrew waited and thought before signing the contract, and then decided not to sign. Instead, he contacted the pastor and informed him he was leaving the church. When asked why he made this decision, Andrew replied, “Because I felt that the contract was legalistic, voyeuristic, and controlling. I felt like it was putting them in the place of God, determining when my heart was right or repentant enough. I didn’t want that.” The pastor wrote back, warning him that this would lead to more severe action. Citing Matthew 18, other church members were notified via the church’s internal social media system that Andrew was under discipline and that church members were to treat him “as a Gentile and a tax collector” (Matt 18:17). The communique gave specific examples of the kinds of interactions that would be permissible and impermissible, along with practical examples.
Matthew Paul Turner takes a dim view of this “gospel shame” process of discipline:
Where do I even begin? Honestly, this letter speaks for itself in my opinion. The harsh heavy-handed “theology”. The misuse of scripture to validate their reasoning. The carefully worded instructions on what to say, how to act, etc. The term “gospel shame”? The assumptions that their decisions are to be viewed equal to God’s decisions. At times, this letter comes off like the Roman Catholic church during the Dark Ages.
…And if this is how they plan to treat Andrew–as an “unbeliever”? How in the world do they treat people who really are non-Christian? (And not to mention the fact that Jesus hung out with Gentiles, tax-collectors, etc.)
Fine. If they don’t want Andrew to be a member of their church, take his name off the list! But this? I mean, seriously, did any of this letter, except for perhaps the “heavy heart”, infer that Mars Hill loves Andrew? Oh I know they think their actions represent love. But really, many of us have experienced firsthand that kind of “love,” and we know very well that it’s an abuse of the term.
I encourage you to read these articles in their entirety. Then come back and share your opinions about how “discipline” should be understood and practiced in the local church.
As for my opinion, the whole process described here seems askew. I recognize that we are only getting one side of the story, and that is an important caveat to keep in mind. But if we are to take Andrew’s word as anywhere near accurate in the description of what he went through, then I would make the following observations:
- First, the “sinner” came forward and confessed of his own free will.
- Second, Andrew makes no mention that anyone he talked to offered him forgiveness or pointed him to Christ.
- Third, instead of absolution and restoration, a seemingly endless series of meetings began which only served to dredge up more sin and more shame, but still provided no word of forgiveness.
- Fourth, the end result of all these meetings and all these confessions was that Andrew was issued a discipline “contract.” This written and signed agreement gave him a list of “works” that he had to perform in order to “prove” that he was repentant, including detailing all the sins he could recall with regard to relationships, sexual behavior, and deception.
- Fifth, when Andrew rejected these demands, the entire church was notified and instructed to shun Andrew, only excepting conversations in which congregation members could appeal to him to repent.
As far as I can see, this approach to “church discipline” was misguided, counterproductive, and counter to the Gospel.
- It ignored the principle that if we confess our sins, forgiveness and absolution should be granted (1Jn 1:9). It ignored the example of Christ, who said simply and immediately, time and time again, to those who came to him, “Go in peace, your sins are forgiven.”
- Instead, it stirred up more and more talk of sin and repeated that talk in ever-widening circles until finally the entire congregation knew about it. In contrast to the Gospel — “where sin abounded, grace much more abounded” — this process just seemed to cause discussion of sin to abound. It put all the attention on this young man’s sin, repentance, and works.
- The contractual requirement that this young man write out his “sexual and emotional attachment history,” and give a “full chronology of events and social/emotional sin” seems invasive and inappropriate. Why document such things and why should anyone want to read them? That feels really creepy to me, not only encouraging morbid introspection, but also voyeurism. Manifestly unhealthy!
- Rather than count on Christ and his finished work, this “discipline” process put the onus on the sinner to feel sorry enough, to be repentant enough, to do enough works to prove his contrition and thus “earn” forgiveness and restoration from the church. That is not the Gospel.
Here is yet another instance where the evangelical world needs to listen to the traditions of the church. No system practiced by humans will ever work perfectly, but how much more like the Gospel is the simple practice of confession and absolution, the administration of the “Office of the Keys” that has been practiced for centuries?
Regarding the practice of confession, the Augsburg Confession states:
But of Confession they teach that an enumeration of sins is not necessary, and that consciences be not burdened with anxiety to enumerate all sins, for it is impossible to recount all sins, as the Psalm 19:13 testifies: Who can understand his errors?
And Luther (who knew something about a tortured conscience and endless confessing of sins!), wrote in the Smalcald Articles:
But the enumeration of sins ought to be free to every one, as to what he wishes to enumerate or not to enumerate. For as long as we are in the flesh, we shall not lie when we say: “I am a poor man [I acknowledge that I am a miserable sinner], full of sin.”
In the Small Catechism, Luther then describes how the pastor should respond when such a confession is made:
Then shall the confessor say:
God be merciful to thee and strengthen thy faith! Amen.
Furthermore:
Dost thou believe that my forgiveness is God’s forgiveness?
Answer.
Yes, dear sir.
Then let him say:
As thou believest, so be it done unto thee. And by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive thee thy sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Depart in peace.
But those who have great burdens upon their consciences, or are distressed and tempted, the confessor will know how to comfort and to encourage to faith with more passages of Scripture.
“As thou believest, so be it done unto thee.” Go in peace. Because of Jesus, God forgives all your sins. Rise to walk in newness of life.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Gospel. So much better.
The Internet Monk Archives 
I believe this is a well thought out and well written response to all that has been said. http://marshill.com/2012/02/13/a-response-regarding-church-discipline
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I read the iMonk article and all of the related MPT posts with great interest. As a pastor I am frustrated by the lack of gospel-centered community in the American evangelical church. One of the missing pieces, it seems to me, is the lack of biblical church discipline, or what might better be called the lack of nourishing and admonishing relationships within the body of Christ.
I recently joined the staff of a small-ish church, and was asked to mentor a young man. Long story short, a few weeks ago he assaulted his wife, and it became known that he had been doing so for quite some time. I presented their case to the elders of our church. In this particular case confession would be enough to continue in fellowship, but it wouldn’t protect his wife (who has MS and weighs less than 90 lbs) or their three children under the age of five. The elders decided to surround this couple with the resources of the church, but also required them to engage with a counselor and a mentor and assigned one of the pastors on our staff to monitor and report on their participation and progress.
There is much more to this story, but I wish to address the original question. I do believe that the church has the right and responsibility to tell her members when their behavior is destructive and leading away from Christ-likeness (Driscoll-likeness is another issue entirely). We wanted to make it very clear that he could not continue to assault his wife and be in good fellowship within the church (I think I Corinthians 5 is much more relevant to church discipline than the oft-referenced Mt 18). However, a person’s attitude toward their sin makes a world of difference. At face value, “Andrew” was so sorrowful over his sin that he confessed it willingly, and then confessed several others. Yes, he does need the church’s leadership. He does not need endless meetings, texts, and contracts. The church could have given Andrew a mentor or a group to help him (why couldn’t his current Community Group have loved him through this difficult time?). Their intentional nourishment and admonishment isn’t the issue. Shame, humiliation, and endless wallowing (“list all of the other sins you’ve committed during this time”) are not only unnecessary, but counter to the Gospel. Christ took our shame and humiliation.
I don’t know if we handled our situation perfectly. Our elders wanted to establish clearly that this behavior is not going to pass unchecked, but also to show that we were willing to partner with them in facing the enemy. We enumerated clear steps and some clear consequences if they chose not to follow those steps. I think this should be the goal of church discipline. The Mars Hill case sounds much more like penance and bondage to me.
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“sinful and immoral” that is.
As to “tell it to the church” (assembly), never minding the contextual combats which arise, the expression, “tell it to the church” does not necessitate the view that everyone in the church is to be informed of someone’s sin if it gets to a point of having to “tell it to the assembly”.
Take the example of “the state”. When “the state” presses charges, everyone in that state is not personally pressing charges, the appropriate representatives of that state do on the people’s behalf. Assemblies have officers who regularly act on behalf or in the interests of the whole without informing the whole of every detail, only of its essential parts.
This is the view the Lutheran church uses in many places, that excommunication is done via church officials and the expression, “treat them as a tax collector or pagan” of course is in reference to their church membership, i.e. they are unfit for membership in that body.
Now it might be that the whole body is informed of the excommunication but it does not seem the nature of the excommunication or its details require disclosure since those officers are trusted to act as informed and with spiritual judiciousness.
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Not sure if anyone here has read Death By Love, by ‘that’ pastor, from which you can get a more colorful narrative of a handful of similar sex related ‘confessions’ being handled under similar circumstances within this ministry. Perhaps someone else can better explain it than I do.
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I’d say he is normal for that sub-set of Christianity. However, even out of that sub-set or cult group, he is within the range of “somewhat regularly heard of” failures within Christianity. Nothing was criminal or deviant in the way of sexuality, though it was sinful and moral. The “danger” claim is a facade.
Sleazeball? I suggest that is a reactionary narrative. He acted without integrity but the temptation to classify him as a sleazeball is inconsiderate of all of his good actions (which don’t minimize or justify bad actions but should impact how we classify people) and points to bad motives on your part. Here is what I mean. Someone does something wrong, it is not a picture of their entire person. We may say, in that instant or for those acts, that person acted in a sleazy manner or without integrity. But seeing he sought remedy tells me he does not warrant this wholesale categorization whether you meant to categorize him in a wholesale manner, you did.
As to Mars Hill and the larger concern, they are constantly arrested and deforming the Scriptures for their cult but who gives a “condemnation”? Certainly not celebrated and allegedly informed people like John Piper, Mark Dever, or Al Mohler. They’re busy selling things like books and conference tickets. Vomit.
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I’ve come to the (perhaps temporary) conclusion that there is an big gap between their theology of discipline, and the practice of it, and that this is potentionally due to the impersonal nature of mega churches.
For example, I think the idea behind things that the contract asks are not themselves bad, but the implementation is a kind of one-size-fits-all approach that can steam-roll the differences of individual situations.
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I agree. Sorry, but I don’t think “being intimate” (do they mean having sex?) with his fiance is such a big deal. Did anyone work to help them heal their relationship after Andrew’s “impropriety” (whatever that was) with the old fling? If Andrew has some issues that make it difficult for him to be faithful to his fiance, I would hope they would help him get help. The rest of it… let things go. Be more about helping people move towards wholeness and healthy relationships.
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My comment was from my experience. I am from a church in Dallas with no affiliation whatsoever with Mars Hill. My brother-in-law and really good friend is on staff there. The discipline I received was not perfect, by a long shot, but I knew the heart of the people involved and trusted them; I was also willing to put myself under their leadership because it was God who had given them the position of leadership. God, in that time was continually showing me I Peter, over and over; in sermons, from the radio, in my own study, it was everywhere. And I believe he wanted me to learn about patience, suffering and respect for those God had placed in authority.
“Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.
Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.” (1 Peter 2:13-25 ESV)
I believe God used this discipline to finally wake me up and help me hear the gospel of Jesus for the first time. There is nothing I can do to have God love me more or less. I am a changed person, able to give up idols of relationship and sex because God has already given me everything I need! I believe it!(I am also in a loving relationship now that is amazingly good and working to refine me)
Now was it perfect, the discipline? No, very far from it. But we are called to submission to leadership and to Christ, the Head of the Church. We have to be humble enough to face ourselves and admit, we may be wrong and we might not be in the best place to judge that. I do believe that there needs to be grace and counseling and Stephen ministry(my own SM has been a huge blessing in my recovery) involved in restoration. I also know we have to stop being to individualistic; our sin has massive consequences on those around us, especially sexual sin (I know first hand, being guilty myself). I guess my plea is, let us be humble, admit we don’t know everything, we will stubble in restoration some times because the church is made up of fallible people; but this does not mean we should just up and walk away. The only way out is through. So walk through your pain and sin to the cross and lay it at the feet of Jesus; and ask your church family for help and when you do, be willing to be humble and realize that you might not be comfortable as God sifts you and refines you; it is always painful but always necessary.
http://42lifeinbetween.blogspot.com/
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What am I missing here? What those guys did to that young man was not church discipline. The wanted him to write out his sexual history so they could read it? They’re dirty old men masquerading as church elders and pastors. They told at least part of his story online? That’s invasion of privacy. If I were him I’d hire a flamboyant attorney to put them in the spotlight nationwide and sue them so they will stop abusing people in the name of Jesus. How self-deceived is it possible for “church” leaders and those who follow them to be?
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The church is wrong in that it is attempting to use man-made rules to mimic the act of righteousness, rather than having a true righteousness which comes from regenerated hearts. That is, as Christians we should be bound together with such great love and affection that we can not help but confront sin when it comes into the church. If we love each other and are very active in each other’s lives, then we will wage war with our sin and help others to do the same. Unfortunately the church’s response looks very much like the Pharisees in Jesus’s time, who attempted to wash the outside of the cup but not the inside. However,this also reminds me of the story of the rich young ruler in Mark10:17-22. He was unwilling to leave sin and thus left the church. If you really love Jesus, you will at least make the effort, even if you fail miserably at first. I’m not saying there should be “contracts” you have to sign, but to be honest, I don’t think anyone in the church outside my immediate family has EVER confronted me for living in sin, when I clearly was/am. The church is so focused on being non-confrontational as a means of “evangelizing” but then we are refusing to carry each other’s burdens as we should. But as a member of the Christian body, I guess I am guilty of this sin as well.
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This is an interesting take on the contract. It was posted over at the Warburg Watch by a lawyer. Its their take on the “disciplinary” contract that Mars Hill gave Andrew.
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Back in the Dark Ages, I went to law school and emerged with a law degree. I had to learn a LOT about contracts (two semesters’ worth, four hours a semester, as a matter of fact.) A real contract has both parties doing certain things for a particular goal. Example: you make a contract with a bank to buy a car. The bank lets you drive the car and use it during the term of the contract, but, in exchange, you have to make payments on the car and keep the car insured up to a certain level. The contract is fulfilled when the note is paid off, and you get the car title in the mail.
When I looked at the “contract” Andrew was asked to sign, I was boggled. It’s not a real contract, because all the performance was on one side–Andrew’s side. There was nothing in this “contract” about what would be the consequences of failing to fulfill provisions of the contract, what Mars Hill and its pastor was required to do as part of the contract and how both sides would know the contract was fulfilled (i.e., a particular time period, or some other marker).
No, this document wasn’t a contract, it was an attempt to enslave Andrew to Mars Hill. A real contract would have the things I mentioned above: consequences for failing to uphold your end of the contract, how long the contract would last, and what Mars Hill would do to uphold its end of the contract. Andrew did the right thing in walking away.
tl;dr: A real contract has provisions that both sides have to complete. This “contract” given to Andrew by Mars Hill only went one way, and wasn’t a contract, but an invitation to slavery. Andrew was right to walk away
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Ken, many of the comments got away from the original intention I set forth, which was that we not look at this and talk about the particular church or pastor in question, but to look at an example of a process of church discipline, accepting the report at face value for the purpose of discussion. Apparently, some feel so strongly about Driscoll and Mars Hill that it just wasn’t possible to keep the personal side out of it.
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Well, that was a rude comment.
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What concerns me here Mike is that we really have only heard one side of the story. Have you heard anything from the other side?
I have been around long enough to know that people can paint themselves in way better light than what they really are. And having another family member testify still does not mean a lot.
We may be trying and convicting this church without ever hearing the full story, which is troubling.
I think there are times when a person may need to have leadership in their face on this type of issue, and I guess I worry that one may be tempted to say that just because that church overstepped boundaries the whole idea of forcing accountability is wrong.
BTW, I agree with you completely, it should have just stopped exactly as you said and gone no further, if what he said is true.
I guess I am having a hard time believing that a Christian church could be that stupid
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I’m not sure what your point is. I know what the current state of our society is. I’ve lived here a while and seen most of what there is to see. I don’t have illusions about the innocence of any particular set of people. My point here is that if this guy can’t be faithful to a woman when he is engaged, he probably won’t be faithful to her when they are married. He needs some serious growing up in this area or he will end up as another divorce statistic and deeply hurt the woman he ends up marrying in the process.
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Ken, I agree that there may be such cases. At face value, and the more I have thought about it, this was not one of them.
The young man confessed to the appropriate person but then it got beyond the two of them and the machinery started working. If we really want to apply a Scripture like Matt 18 to the story as it stands, the process should have stopped with him confessing to his fiancee. He sinned against her. It was her forgiveness he needed to seek. In my opinion she was the only one with whom he needed to have a conversation. Unfortunately, he shared it with others, including small group members and the leader. Pretty soon the big boys were involved (was this because it was an elder’s daughter?) and it just kept getting more complicated from that point.
So, for me, the problem was not only what happened when the church leaders got involved. The whole thing got started on the wrong foot. The matter should have been kept within appropriate bounds at the beginning — between Andrew and his fiancee. They should have then decided together (with whatever guidance from trusted others they thought best) how to proceed with counseling or some other form of help. In my view there was no reason this should ever have become a matter of “church discipline” the way it did. If, in the course of counseling, it was recommended that the young man had a habitual problem that needed attention, then perhaps church leaders could have helped with that if appropriate.
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Sorry,
My confessional comment was concerning the original post not your comment.
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Matthew… Wow!!! Talk about drinking the kool-aide. I get the impression that after being brainwashed you were almost smiling while loading your own gun before handing it over to the Pastor who was going to execute you. I did check out your blog and I wonder if the fact that you recommend Mark Driscoll’s podcasts is what led to your kool-aide ingestion.
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Dan….
I hate to break it to you…BUT… There are guys who use girls for sexual purposes, and there are girls who use guys for sexual purposes. Unless its rape, date rape, a drug being given to make a person unconscious with the intent to violate them, etc…; there are people who for lack of a better term are horny who use each other. Girls are not necessarily more innocent. Girls can and have used guys. But on top of that what do you think the term “Friends with Benefits” is all about?
People make mistakes, and if some people are sexual in a responsible manner…then that’s fine. What would probably amaze you is what would shock you IF you truly knew about your family’s freinds and their kids. Image means nothing..I’ve been quite surprised to be in situations and learn that the guy or girl who push or teach sexual purity, etc. in chruch have also engaged in sexual activity at the sime time. Very little shocks me today. No when I was in the Christian bubble I would be shocked. But part of growing up is making mistakes and even exploring sexuality.
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Michael and Radagast –
Like you both, I have a reasonable amount of trust in my daughters and I believe they are solely responsible for their own actions. But I interpreted Andrew differently from you. When I read the article I assumed I was reading his side of the story and that it presented him in a favorable light. So I see him not just as a guy who admitted to having a sexually active past BUT as the kind of guy who had no problem hooking up with an old girlfriend even though he was engaged.
I think you are naive to asume it was as innocent a meeting as he made it sound. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn’t intend things to go as far as they did, but I don’t believe his motives for the meeting were completely pure. Would you meet an old girlfriend behind your fiancée’s back? Maybe he thought he would just enjoy her company and a little bit of flirting. Then he thought, oh just one kiss. Then just a little more, and so on.
Afterward he feels guilty, well OK, so there is hope for him yet. But this guy has a problem; he doesn’t seem to possess the ability to be faithful to a woman. Coming from a betrothed that is the sort of thing that will break a woman’s heart and crush her self-esteem. Deep down she will wonder if it is her fault, she isn’t pretty enough, skinny enough, or whatever. That is what I mean by not wanting this kind of guy around my daughters.
And yes, sexual sins are of the most serious sort. I think Paul agrees in 1 Corinthians 6:12-20 among other places. How many of our society’s problems have a sexual component? Broken families, poverty, sickness, etc. Nothing effects the whole person: body, mind, spirit, quite like sexual sin.
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I have a number of daughters too, the oldest in the secular age of dating. I am not sure what it is like in your neck of the woods TPD but in mine the guys are all looking to score. I am in agreement with Michael that both have to be accountable and it takes a lot of vigilence with my wife and I fully involved to keep my daughter strong so as not to go off on a road she will later regret. As for the guys, they think to advance as far as they can is normal behavior – even the guys from the good families, with all the peer pressure around. That’s why they get to come and talk with me before they go anywhere with my daughter (and we only promote dating in groups at the moment). Being I can look a bit scary at times it works to my advantage ; )
That being said, I agree that this was a moment of weakness for both, not some kind of Lifetime man stalks woman for sex crazed story, and losing a fiance over it was a mighty high punishment in itself. He probably won’t do that again (unless he is a sex crazed hormone lovin bad guy….)
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I am not suggesting a trip to the confessional. I am suggesting a mentoring/discipleship type of program. I really don’t believe that Mars Hill or most mega churches think along these lines.
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TPD, I’m also a father of daughters. And I trust them apparently far more than you trust yours. And even though I love my daughters – as I am fully confident you love yours – I hold them just as accountable for any sexual sins or mistakes they make (assault notwithstanding). I don’t hew to the line of making the boy/man fully or 90% responsible for the actions of two beings with free will.
Andrew, from the writing, sounds like a fairly normal, fully human, young man. The mistake was, for all we know, an anomaly, a moment of weakness, and something he deeply regretted. His actions show that he was earnestly and honestly interested in never making that mistake again.
And while I think it’s a dangerous road deciding which sins are “worse” than others, I think this is yet another example of evangelicalism showing its ridiculously puckered up sense of purity at sex. Assuming we’ve been told the truth, this isn’t a case of a serial sexual predator or even cheater. It’s a guy who made a bad judgment call, followed the flesh, and deeply regretted it. As for being sexually active with his fiancee….I can’t and won’t condemn him for that (as long as they were being smart and safe). I see Mars Hill’s cultish reaction and desire to invasively control Andrew’s life as far, far more toxic and spiritually harmful than a young man wrestling with the hormones that are likely seeping out of his ears.
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Brennan Manning’s drinking, or some anonymous persons pride, gluttony, whatever is far less serious than “Andrew’s” sin. As a father of teenage daughters I wouldn’t want this guy anywhere near my girls. That doesn’t mean I think that his sins are any worse than mine when we stand before the Great White Throne. It means I understand that in this life a sexually weak and unfaithful man can break a young woman’s heart, shatter her self-esteem, or change the course of her life in a way that someone’s personal drunkenness, gluttony, blah, blah, blah, never could. “Andrew” did need to be dealt with, just not in the way his church went about it.
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Agreed. Mars Hill’s solution may not be on track to help this boy grow into a man, but then either is 5 minutes with Father O’Malley. There does need to be something more extensive than just a trip to the confessional.
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My point is this, there may be genuine reasons that they took those steps, and if we don’t hear the other side we really are hearing a biased version of things.
It is easy for us to form a kangaroo court and decide that church is wrong based on 1/2 the story, just as some of us have been judged on 1/2 the story.
The job of leadership is to protect. Mars Hill may be dead wrong in this. If they are the guy should turn tail and run, and I can’t blame him for going public.
But since the broader question Mike had was to do with Church Discipline, I am saying that strong measures may be justified in some cases.
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Douglas, shaming any sort of brazen sinner who has confessed and repented is, well…Islamic. I suppose may be one of those “I’m a Christian so I no longer sin” types, in which case there’s no satisfying the lust for control over the conscience of those who are in obvious sin, and no convincing you of your deception, perhaps until the brazen consequences of your own sin begin to surface in your life. You’re “hidden thoughts” betray you.
Your contractual view of the Christian is perhaps the root of this. The testament, or covenant, is signed and upheld by Jesus Christ, not the believer. It would be nice if we could all pretend that we basically uphold the commands of God, wouldn’t it? Thoughts and all? But the faith is different than Islam, which you seem to be blending with Christianity a little too much for my taste.
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If you do not make mistakes – you never learn, and never attain wisdom. From what I read the guy allowed himself to get into a vulnerable situation, easy to do if you’ve had a previously close relationship with someone. He relaized that it was wrong and stopped. Not only that but he did the right thing by telling his fiance, in full knowledge of the probable consequences. Huge learning experience. That a group should go on to torture him while there are skeletons in their own closet- wrong.
It sets a precedence that one needs to be perfect all the time. yes, we should try to attain goodness but sometimes we fall. And if we fall we need support, not a continual kick in the teeth.
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Matthew
At least for me the issue wasn’t the discipline itself. Rather how it was applied. Some of the requirements were voyeuristic and frankly rather intrusive. Why should he or anyone for that matter list out all of their previous sexual sins? Isn’t strange that there is no mention of grace or mercy?
I would suggest that a much better solution would have been for them to set up some counseling sessions and work through some of the issues over a period of time. The goal behind the document was not repentance and restoration. It was really humiliation and vengeance.
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+1 great perspective
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It stuns me that all the church leaders who want to use Matthew 18:15-17 as a cudgel don’t even look at Matthew 18:21-35. In that parable, church leaders are represented by the unmerciful servant in that story, not the King settling the accounts!
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I have been in Andrew’s place and I was disciplined by leadership in the church for actions that I had done. What I could not see then, that I can see now, is that there was a pattern of sin in my life that the leadership was trying to get at and wanted to see it change in me. They saw the danger that I was in (I could not at the time) and were looking out for the best interests of me and the flock. When I read this whole thing I saw a pattern in Andrew’s behavior; this was not a one incident, but a pattern of sexual misbehavior. I believe that this is what the church was trying to get at and to help him see. I know from personal experience how hard it is to look inside and see these patterns and idols that I had been holding on too. It has been a year since the discipline and I did not always handle it the best way, but I stayed. I put myself under the leadership of the church and I am so glad that I have. God has taught me so much about the gospel and myself and because I did not run and I am actually seeing those patterns change. We hear one side of the story and jump to all kinds of conclusions, but honestly, being in leadership is hard and you are called to protect your flock and you will be accountable for that to the Lord. So, with that in mind, I must remind myself that the church will not be perfect and neither will leadership, but I do believe that they are trying to follow the Lord and do what is best for all. There is a place, ALWAYS, for grace, but sometimes there also has to be tough love. Jesus give tough love to the rich young ruler and in the end, the rich man walks away.
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So when I’ve tried to blasphemy the Holy Spirit or cuss out God in my process of separating from him. God sees that eh? Good!! 😀
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Ken…you almost make it sound like Andrew was a pedophile…just looking for opportunities to exploit people. I’m sorry…this sexual story sounds no different than stuff I heard in college or high school. People make mistakes. If they are habitual…even so. What would Brennan Manning do at Mars Hill? He was a habitual alcoholic! But you almost make Andrew to be like Jerry Sandusky.
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+1
Exactly what I was thinking.
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This kind of public persecution and humiliation by church leaders creates an environment where people are afraid to be open and transparent about their failures and shortcomings — and we all have struggles and issues with sin, from Pastor Pius Perfect to Joe Shmoe on the back row.
So what you get in the long run are church bodies that are deeply infected and weighed down by hidden sin and the secret shame that goes with it, while the less scrupulous become masters of illusion and hypocrisy.
I think it boils down to a skewed value system in which maintaining a spotless public image is given higher priority than things like truth and love and mercy.
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That part I get. But why ask the question when there are obviously many here who search the Scripures? And just because Mars Hill gets it wrong that doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of other churches out there who get it right.
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CM –
Although I agree that the contract Mars Hill tried to make him sign was downright weird, I wouldn’t characterize “Andrew” as “a pretty normal young man.” Hooking up with a girl from his community college behind his fiancée’s back makes him a sleaze-ball in my book. In all likelihood “Andrew” does have serious sexual issues to work through before he is a fit mate for any young woman. My issue with Mars Hill’s handling of this is that their contract doesn’t appear to be the instrument that will help him become the man he needs to be.
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I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean anything by it, as this is a Protestant website, but your article is sprinkled with images of Catholic priests and the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation. There is a stark contrast with Catholic Confession and the events described in the article. What this poor man experienced is not a fruit of the Catholic Sacrament and occurred in a Protestant church (and was extremely odd and disturbing based on the account). I just want to make sure that the two aren’t equated.
Thanks,
Joseph
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Douglas, one “tiny” difference…GOD is never WRONG, and see hearts, not just behaviors.
And “frottage” is okay in some legal settings…..sorry, brother, but you have got law on the brain, and it is sad…..and potentially dangerous.
Go read “The Ragamuffin Gospel” and get back to us.
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Nicely put….hope that someone, somewhere, will show our dear Eagle what real Christianity looks and feels like.
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Indeed. But he stands in relation to his sheep as God to man (and as man to woman, and master to slave). But the issue is not the pastor–it is the sin of brazen premarital frottage. I too have some reservations about seeing described on the internet for all to see, but as long as it is in the context of shaming fornicators (engagement being different from biblical betrothal, which would allow frottage).
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It’s very good that you do not find God “legalistic, voyeuristic, or controlling.” Because God is watching us right now, and sees even our hidden thoughts, so if anyone DID think such thoughts about him, that person would be damned. That’s why we must agree to God’s contract (testament), the Holy Bible–otherwise the Son can in no wise shield us from the Father’s terrible wrath, when our sins too are “shouted from the rooftops” (posted on the church’s wiki) and we are shamed forever.
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Ummm… the pastor = God… is idolatry.
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You only find “Bereans” in churches where they’re cultivated: Where the preacher has no issue with saying, “Don’t just take my word for it. Search the scriptures for yourself.” After all, the preacher has done the homework and is standing on something fairly solid.
But in other churches, those folks aren’t called Bereans. They’re called wolves who are trying to destroy the sheep, because they dare to challenge God’s anointed pastor. The scriptures that encourage us to test prophecy are only used against other churches. Not their own.
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As I recall, he appointed a tax collector to his Twelve.
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With most people, I think, there is a deep-seated need to confess (and I’d argue that sometimes it shows itself in bragging when confession does not meet repentance); and many Christians do confess their sins to others, if for no other reason than to ask for prayer. Of course, this is usually done with nary a thought of the Office of the Keys. I’d never heard of the Office until I went to a few Lutheran services. I was predictably shocked by the pastor absolving the congregation, but I looked at the wording more closely and could find nothing to argue against. And, I thought that the idea of confession at the very beginning of the service was brilliant.
My church was obsessed for years with “testimony time,” and sometimes it would take the whole service and there wouldn’t even be a sermon (I know…). I remember once when a woman who had recently been saved and had lived a very rough life confessed openly that she was still having fits with drugs, and couldn’t bring herself to break up with her lesbian lover. It was awkward, of course, but powerful at the same time. And I know she’d had some counseling before that. But I still wonder if counseling that followed closely the ritual of Lutheran-style confession would have helped by reminding her of her forgiveness in Christ.
Since Satan will be ice-skating to work before evangelicals take up the Confessional, pastors and leaders who think there might be value in it could adapt the wording above quite easily. People confess in conversation and in classes and support groups all the time, so why not have a Biblical response?
I wish the Lord’s Supper would take its rightful place back from the altar call, though: it’s a perfect way to put the focus back on Christ’s completed work, and more Christians would seek forgiveness of sins during the time of preparation than would ever go to the altar. In strictly numerical terms, you’d have more people coming to God …and isn’t that one of the main reasons for church?
I apologize in advance for any unclear wording; it’s tired and I’m late.
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Harder to understand when you encounter fewer sociopaths — or naively don’t expect them to be running a church.
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See, all that fanaticism, and they don’t even get the nice red uniforms.
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dumb ox, a campus pastor wouldn’t be writing a whole lot of books so the documents actually make it clear that “that” person wasn’t involved as “that” pastor doesn’t have any children old enough to be legally engaged to anyone.
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…or a fine Pinot Noir in my case…
saude!
🙂
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If you feel that this pastor is “legalistic, voyeuristic, and controlling,” well, then you will find God legalistic, voyeuristic, and controlling, which is a sure route to earning God’s enmity.
say what???
i sure as hell don’t find God “legalistic, voyeuristic, and controlling…”
those in leadership at Mars Hill, pastor & elders included, can be categorized as such, but only because the Standard they are measured against is accurately recognized…
there would be no controversy here if the Mars Hill Seattle leadership actually mirrored the very Lord & Savior they claim allegiance to…
and your theological perspective seems a bit, well, over-the-top on the “do as i say, not as i do” aspect of dealing with the issue presented. either i misread your implied perspective or you have a bit of clarification to provide…
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This story spoke to my heart.
I think I have I experienced a similar thing twice
if my understanding is correct.
We need to pray not only for the young man,
but his fiancee. And the elders of the church involved.
Had it been some girl in the back row , this would
never have happened. But she was an elders daughter
caught in “sin”. He had to be dealt with.
Any organization like this has much power.
And job one for powerful folks is to maintain
that power. Christian or no. A scandal at the top
HAS to be proactively dealt with. Its not personal.
The system requires it. And the people at the top
at some point stop driving the system and start being
driven by it.
This is not the only sexual impropriety in the congregation.
it is just one that involved the power center.
its not about discipline but about containment.
And its not about him. its about HER.
She’s an elders daughter!
Personally I hope she leaves the church and joins him.
But I doubt she can do that.
Just my opinion, I could be right 🙂
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Yes I did write that and I stand by it because you’re still doing it. I appreciate you taking back the tone but it’s not just your tone that is harmful here. If you don’t know much about this place, then maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss the concerns of those who do know it. There is plenty of information out there to support what we’re saying. Just because you haven’t bothered to read it doesn’t make it not worth pointing out. This place is dangerous and the more people like you try to get people to stop pointing this out with uninformed arguments, the longer people will take them seriously.
Asking us to talk about church discipline with this story as a springboard but not talk about Driscoll or Mars Hill is like presenting us with a story about the Westboro Baptist Church and asking us to talk about the role of churches in protests while not discussing Westboro Baptist. It’s impossible! Nobody here would ever ask that because nobody here takes that place seriously. We all accept they’re a cult and they’re damaging. I’m saying, it’s time to put Mars Hill in that category.
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I was a member of a small pentecostal church in VT (cue spooky music) that had very similar ideas about church discipline for the same reasons: IT WAS A CULT TOO!
The only time where church discipline is to be applied according to scripture is when someone is still actively pursuing their sin. It would also seem that the sin needs to either fal into one of two categories: gross obvious moral lapses or sins against another member.
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You’re right. Calvinism has been high-jacked.
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“NOBODY expects the [Mars Hill] Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to [Driscoll], and nice red uniforms…”
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Again, I think you’re confusing theology with controlling/abusive behavior, and the two are not an automatic one-to-one correspondence. No matter what their theology or general weirdness, do Mormons normally exhibit control-freak and abusive behavior towards inferiors in their congregations?
This could vary from place to place; for instance, California Mormons are supposed to be the most laid-back and mellow and Utah Mormons the most rigid and tight-assed. (And most all my interaction with Mormons has been with California Mormons.)
Another alternate definition of a “cult” is that a cult usually doesn’t outlive its founder/leader for long. I have heard it said of the Mormons that “Joseph Smith started a cult; Brigham Young turned it into a self-sustaining religion.”
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Actually came across it in a handout at a panel at an SF convention, but I’d heard of the concept before from others.
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“He actually sounds like a pretty normal young man to me. In today’s society, that means, unfortunately, that he has been sexually active.”
But wasn’t his pastor (who remains nameless) also sexually active as a young man? Isn’t that what he admits to in his tell-all book? Doesn’t that also make him a danger to the congregation? How can this NOT be a referendum on…you know who?
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Matthew 18:15-17 is about telling a brother or sister that they’re sinning and what to do if they refuse to repent. It’s about initiating correction in another person who is either ignorant or willfully disobedient. Andrew confessed on his own — HE initiated it, HE took the first step by confessing to his fiancée and to a friend in his small group. Matthew 18:15-17 doesn’t even apply in that situation, so there was no need for church discipline.
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PD: Since I’m a lady, I’m sure they would have kicked me out immediately. Can’t have no uppity womenfolk messin’ with the manly Word o’ God.
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As a Gentile and a tax collector myself, I naturally feel a certain knee-jerk reaction. However, on reflection, I see that Holy Scripture presents us with exactly the same sort of contract, only between God and man. We have zero say over what the contract stipulates–our place is either to “sign” (so to speak), or be damned (literally).
If you feel that this pastor is “legalistic, voyeuristic, and controlling,” well, then you will find God legalistic, voyeuristic, and controlling, which is a sure route to earning God’s enmity. Or from a more positive perspective, those who repent may enjoy the comely delights of the “pastor’s daughter” (i.e., the Church).
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Just a simple observation…it appears to me as if that church acted not out of love and concern but out of control and manipulation. As I read the letter that the lead pastor wrote to the congregation, I didn’t feel that it was of Christ. We have such a perfect example in the Gospels of how Jesus treated sinners.
It concerns me greatly that such a large and well known church has it’s foundations set in the soil in which that letter was written.
Very illuminating.
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Lots of Mennonites all over Canada, but as for me… I am first generation Canadian. My heritage is from Ireland, Barbados and Zimbabwe in the last 100 years or so. My great-grandfather was a pioneering missionary in Zimbabwe from the U.S. of German heritage. We was with the Brethren in Christ, also known as the River Brethren, which were a Mennonite offshoot with Wesleyan influences. My Grandfather (the supposedly sinful one) was from the Christian Brethren also known as the Plymouth Brethren which was founded by an Anglican priest John Nelson Darby. As for me, theologically I suppose I am closest to the Christian Missionary Alliance, but attend a North American (German heritage) Baptist Church in Southern Ontario.
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That’s it !
Every single one of us sin . . .
this post makes going to confession in my own Church look pretty good compared to the cult mentality of some communities with ‘Church Discipline’ committees. Yikes!
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In the Book of Acts the Bereans, upon hearing the message of Paul, searched the scriptures to see that what Paul said was indeed true. This is in contrast to the previous groups who chased away Paul without making any effort to discover any validity in the message.
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NO, actually it would just hyperdivide everyone: the people who defend the disciplinary action would lament the cowardly and/or sinister attack of a lawsuit, and the other group would applaud that justice is being served.
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I have a friend who was married to a man, who for any lack of a better team, I would scrape off the bottom of my shoes if we met. He was a deacon at a little evangelical church, and they used a similar model where if you sinned you had to confess in front of the whole congregation. As so often happens with models like this, he used it to embarrass his wife into ‘obedience’. It worked so well, that after she divorced him, she took a lover who later became her husband. Then after they broke up she finally got past it and settled down. But you will never get her near the doors of a church again, chalk another win up for God!!
When I was seeking out a home church one question I always asked was how they handled church discipline, you can tell a great deal about the grace level of a church based on how they respond to that question. Institutions like Mars Hill long ago stopped being churches where you can find the mercy of God, instead its about adhering to a strict interpretation of the Gospel, and questioning or individuality cannot be allowed. Its all cloaked under the guise of loving someone, when in reality it’s the SAME EXACT MODEL that cults like the Mormons or JW’s use to deal with dissenters from doctrine.
We are ALL, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, SINNERS. There’s no getting past that, until that is established we can’t go any further. And being a sinner is not about who sinned the most, to show how great God is, man do I hate when people declare how bad they are, to show how good God is. It’s like a humility race, where the contestants are tripping each other to get to the humility finish line.
Pastors, Deacons, and Leaders need to be trained on how to deal with confessions, they should be kept private, they should be dealt with gently, and for Gods sake they should be empathetic. Forgiveness is Gods domain, not theirs. Christ didn’t do elaborate contracts and deals with sinners, he forgave them out of love and grace, and sent them on their way healed with a full heart. If we can’t do the same then need to stop calling ourselves Christians and admit that we have become something darker.
I realize that sometimes tough things need to be said, but it should always be done in full and loving trust, and you shouldn’t dwell on it over and over and over. The young man showed more maturity and Grace than many Pastors I have known over the years, I’m just sorry that he didn’t fight back sooner. Had they started down that path with me, they would have quickly regretted that decision. I’m all for taking constructive changes, but that place is a Church (well maybe), and has no hold over that young man. That last part where they sent out a letter to the congregation is borderline slander, maybe it’s just me but I would not have let them push me around like that.
Now I need to drink a beer to lower my blood pressure 😉
-Paul-
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I think I was thinking of the general case, what if you had someone who did come from a background of sexual brokenness. In that case, I think a church has to take special precautions.
I have friends who work with people like that in a Christian setting.
Will read his blog today.
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@Nate: “thin gospels = bad practices” that’s a gem; that says it all in just 4 words and 3 symbols
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If it was just a matter of “he said, they said”, sure there would be room to doubt. But the documentary evidence of the contract and worse, how to shun the unbeliever (complete with ‘if he says the elders are being too harsh, tell him he’s wrong’ instruction) are pretty clear.
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Or keeping the Sabbath in Scotland, particularly in the Highland areas, up till comparatively recent times. “Sabbath-breaking” involved a lot of things; I remember reading in a magazine supplement to a weekend newspaper back in the 90s about someone who lived for a while in the remoter parts of Scotland; she hung out her washing on Sunday and later found it all neatly piled on her doorstep; apparently, this counted as manual labour and Sabbath-breaking and a passing churchgoer had taken down the offending articles!
There is also a description of 19th century practice where an English writer describes how “the act of shaving on Sunday morning is offensive in some parts of Scotland. A clergyman assured me that rather than excite displeasure by the performance of such an operation on Sunday, he accomplished it late on Saturday evening.”
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Of course, I can’t prove anything specific about this case one way or the other, but if you read Matthew Paul Turner’s blog today, you will find a post by “Andrew’s” brother that you might find interesting. Nothing that I have read, including this, gives me any indication that Andrew poses any kind of “danger” in the church. He actually sounds like a pretty normal young man to me. In today’s society, that means, unfortunately, that he has been sexually active.
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I have just read through the docs and I am going to be a bit contrarian here.
I am going to say if (and that’s a big IF) this guy has a history of sexual problems/encounters that stretches back he could be a danger to people in church. What did they mean by unrepentant sexual behaviour? What if his problem stretches back years and he has had numerous relationships? The documents do not say, but if that was true it would cause that type of a reaction.
Hey gang, it is not a Sunday school picnic out there. There are guys who come to church and have serial sexual relationships and church leaders need to take this seriously and nip it in the bud.
And if he happens to come from the normal American cultural attitude that it’s not wrong he could shout to high heaven about his righteousness.
If what the church says about his behaviour is true beyond a doubt I would say he should be watched by his men’s group. Sexual sins are not easy to overcome.
On the other hand, if he is completely right that he confessed all and was cooperative and they did all this, I would say turn tail and run, you have control issues that will not be resolved.
BTW to set this in perspective: in my former church someone was warned by the RCMP that organized crime was sending young men into congregations to try to get some of the young women and get them into the sex trade. Apparently they like christian young women.
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Interesting thought, HUG. Where did you read about this?
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So you don’t attend Berean Baptist?
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Troop-size limit. The average human can think of a maximum of around 150 people as individuals; above that number, they fuzz together into one big Collective. And above that number, you don’t think of them as people, only (to use the most infamous political cult example) The People. And these megachurches are well over the troop-size limit; to the guy on top, there’s always the danger of looking at his huge congregation the same way as the Communists, where abuse to individual people was justified by the grand collective cause of The People.
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This sounds like a very distorted version of Mark Driscoll’s remnant Catholicism; a bad imitation of the Sacrament of Confession.
We only have Andrew’s side of the story, so there is definitely more to be said, but even taking it at face value; there can be good reasons for some of what he said they asked him to do (e.g. writing out a list of his sins – that sounds like a badly-remembered echo of the Examination of Conscience and even something a spiritual director might ask you to do, because we humans have the ability to say of our sins “now and again” or “once in a while”, when it turns out we really mean “every second day”).
However, meeting after meeting after meeting? Several different individuals involved? No sense that there’s one person acting as a spiritual director? No sense of guidance? Jumping through hoops? And the might-as-well-be-excommunication at the end, complete with handy guide to how to treat the apostate? Spilling the beans to the whole church about what happened – even in monastic communities with communal confession, everyone goes up and tells what they did wrong, not just one person having his dirty linen washed in public.
Even going by Andrew’s story, he has a lot to think about: if he was engaged, why did he find himself in a situation with an old flame that led to messing about and could have gone further? That’s something he needs to examine. But that is not sexual predation or the like, and frankly, it does sound like it’s because it was the elder’s daughter he cheated on that all this to-do happened. If it was just Jane Doe outside the congregation, I have to think it would not have come to this.
Badly conceived, badly executed, and badly handled all in all. If confession in the Catholic church was like this, nobody would ever go at all – and you have to do a lot worse than be sleeping with your girlfriend before marriage to get excommunicated, to boot!
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Wasn’t that what Ed Young implied when he demanded routing & account numbers from his congregation for “automatic-deduction tithing”? How his security cameras were so good they would know the face of every holdout? Talk about a shakedown…
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I didn’t think you were, but the original posting tells how “security” can get out-of-hand.
Very often in history, the Head of Security/Chief Enforcer knocks over the guy on top and takes over himself. This was how Saddam (originally an Enforcer) took power in Iraq.
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In other words, they are playing God on the Great White Throne, extracting every Juicy morsel of sexual sin in a do-it-yourself version of Jack Chick’s “This Was Your Life”. Somehow I don’t think Christ’s words about binding and loosing were meant quite this way.
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If you hadn’t left, you might have been escorted from the premises by security just for speaking up!
That is SO out of Stalin’s & Saddam’s playbook. (Done in so many words at various Communist & Baath Party gatherings.) Except Stalin’s & Saddam’s security “escorted them out” a little more permanently. Do you really want the name of Christ associated with such?
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I’d much prefer saying a hundred hail marys than having my sin circulated around the church by my confessor.
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That made me smile. Thanks Miguel
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Eagle,
your “Berean” question seems to me to be an indicator that you’re still engaging in the type of thinking that went on in the group/s you left. I’m not saying that to shame you or anything, but rather to remind you that you’re still “detoxing”; it takes a while to shake off that stuff, and one reason why you’re feeling so confused is that remnants of that old mindset are still part of you.
The deal is, it’s not simply a matter of searching the scriptures to find out “what the Bible teaches”. There really is no such thing. “What the Bible teaches” is dependent upon *interpretation*. It can be really unsettling to begin to understand that, especially when you’ve been with a group that allows for no other interpretation but theirs. If you depart from that interpretation, in a way you lose your identity. I know something of this, though I wasn’t hurt the way you were.
I’m so sorry for your continued pain. The grieving process is different for everyone. I hope the fact you keep showing up here encourages you, that there are Christians who are not like the ones who hurt you – Christians who have, and allow for, different interpretations of scripture.
You know, a certain segment of especially American Protestantism is so focused on knowing what’s Right – the right doctrine, the right interpretation of scripture, the right way to “apply” it, etc. etc. etc. I got to the place where I was just so tired of being all tied up in knots over “being right”, both personally and in church matters. A wise person recently told me that Being Right is not a virtue… To me, that explains why all the energy expended on “being right” is nothing but spinning one’s wheels, in a psychospiritual sense. Practicing virtues helps a person’s transformation; Being Right really doesn’t get you anywhere.
I think you are very far from being “dead to Jesus”. A hug to you from your fellow born-in-Montanan.
Dana
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Unless he comes up with his own book of Scriptures, like the Book of Mormon, or takes on polygamous wives, I don’t think it’s correct to say he’s gone beyond Joseph Smith.
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“Discipling Movement” of the Seventies. AKA “Shepherding Movement”. A Control Freak’s Wet Dream, where the “Shepherds” have ABSOLUTE Authority and Power over their “Disciples” in every way and any resistance is the Sin of Rebellion Against God/God’s Anointed Shepherds. Gives new meaning to the verse “Making Every Thought Captive”. THAT’s what I encountered in the Seventies, and in 1976 had enough to go over the Berlin Wall into the Post-Evangelical Wilderness of the time.
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LOL!! I GET IT!!!
T
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The style of discipline (read–“shunning”) that has been derived/interpreted from Matt. 18 and I Cor. 5 will not work in a culture which is nominally “Christian” and in which people can use their un-disciplined feet to go elsewhere–even trans-denominationally (or, just stay home and practice “private spirituality”.
T
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The incidences and processes enumerated in the post remind me of the “discipling movement” that cropped up in the 70’s. FUBAR, to say the least.
It also strikes me as odd that Matt. 18 (“church discipline” passage) and 1 Cor. 5 would constitute a set, firm code for all churches in all times in all cultures to use as a rote methodology for dealing with certain, specific sins (usually sexual) in a congregation.
Also, when Jesus said to “treat them as a pagan or a tax collector” the appropriate action would follow from the assumption that the person(s) of focus “just doesn’t get it”, therefore the remedy is to again proclaim the Gospel of Christ to the individual(s) who are marring the image of Christ within themselves.
Tom
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The Amish do it all the time. But they live in well-defined communities.
In a more general sense, the usual story is that if a church tries to use church discipline, the church goer withdraws from the church. This is why many churches are trying to sneak in bylaws to prohibit withdraw during discipline, but they’re playing with fire and lawsuits by so doing.
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I agree with the heart of your statement Miguel, but I think there is more to it than just denying communion (not to mention that Jesus’ teaching here was before the establishment of communion). If the goal of the discipline is to convince someone of their unbelief and that through that unbelief they are in essence not a part of the church, then does it not send a very confused message if that person is still welcome to participate in all other church activities (going to community group, serving, and the like)? And, depending on the offense and whether it is ongoing, at what point should a person be identified as a wolf who must be denied access to the sheep?
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Can anyone recall a time when church discipline was used effectively and brought a person to repent of sin, be restored or reconciled–either for you or another person? There must be some positive examples, or the Scriptures wouldn’t give us such explicit instructions.
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“let him without sin throw the first stone…” You know how the story really goes, right? From out of the crowd, a solitary stone flew out and struck the woman on the cheek. Jesus turns around and exclaims in desperation, “MOM! Stop it!.”
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WOW> I can relate to this legalist process and misuse of Matthew 18. Two personal examples: Years ago I was forced to go before my church in Arizona to confess my “sin of divorce”, forced to resign my position as President of the Women’s Committee, step down from my postion as teacher in their little ACE school AND all the elders were told that they were to treat me as a heathen and not “counsel” me. Praise the Lord they refused to listen and they helped me immensely. Fast forward to a few months ago when I was told that I must follow the Matthew 18 passages to registar a “grievence” at my place of ministry when the problem wasn’t a matter of church discipline or even sin against me at all! So I resigned from that ministry citing the unjust accusations that were brought against me that had somehow gotten all the way to the President of the Board. Christians tend to forget the audience to which Jesus was speaking and the circumstances then try to somehow make it a command for us all today. Although it is a very good guide we must be careful to not become like the Pharisitical ways that Jesus was teaching against. Are we in the Dispensation of Grace or under the Law?
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Obviously I am not advocating for that. Just trying to answer those who would wonder why a church would have security in the first place.
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Nate…word.
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It needs to be seriously entertained that the preaching of Mars Hill and the ministries that mimic it have indeed short-shrifted the gospel. For every sermon Driscoll has that throrougly Gospel, he’s got a couple that just drift into “me-talk” and revolve around moral improvement. I’ve said it elsewhere, having sermons that basically give the cross a few minutes sandwiched in between a bunch of “you’re a sinner and you shouldn’t be” stuff is hardly gospel-centered, yet people want to keep using that term to describe movements like Mars Hill. There’s a drastic misunderstanding of what “Gospel-centered” actually means going on because (and I’m guessing here) the people it attracts are immature and basically equate “not being religious” with Christ-centered. All you really have to do in some of these contexts is rock a couple of doctrinal points as an apologetic against universalists or liberals or whatever, and somehow that’s supposed to mean Jesus has made his way into the midst of the hearers. Not so. Likewise, making fun of “religious” people does not make you Gospel-centered. Wearing t-shirts instead of suits, having big conversion rates, and being hard on sin, none of this proves Gospel-centrality. People think that having lengthy, “apply it to your life” and “get holy” segments of the sermon is correct application, and that hearing this stuff week after week is somehow going to produce the Christian fruit that the Bible talks about. This is why ministries in the neo-reformed movement should have their Gospel-centrality scrutinized. You don’t get to throw buzz words like that around and get a pass because you’re a Calvinist or something.
The habits of church discipline are directly related to this. Thin Gospels = bad practices, that includes the practice of discipline.
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Ryan, that is why I wanted to take the personal element out of it in this conversation. I wanted us to step back from the personalities involved and look at this kind of process and evaluate the approach and spirit of it. At the very least, what it says to me is that evangelical Christians have trouble knowing what to do and how to handle it within the congregation when a fellow believer sins. We resort to judgment and rely on works to solve the “problem” rather than pointing our fallen brother/sister to the Gospel of forgiveness and peace.
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Those texts for sure, Lauri, but I also have no problem with a church having a way of dealing with sins in a Gospel-centered way. In fact, I think passages like Matthew 18 (over-cited and poorly understood as it often is), Galatians 6, and James 5 tell us we should. That is why the Office of the Keys has been an honored tradition in the church. This has always been subject to abuse, and as I stated in another comment, such abuse was in fact one key factor in sparking the Reformation. Used wisely, simply, regularly, and in a Christ-centered way, the practice of confession would go a long way toward helping Christians understand that we remain sinners and need the Gospel every day of our lives.
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But unless he has something really, really juicy, who would care? I mean if someone came up to me and told me than an employee of mine had cheated on his wife, I’d yawn and say so? And if it was unmarried people engaging in horseplay I’d be even less likely to react other than perhaps angrily to ask the person why they were telling me this.
The world has moved on and unmarried sexual hijinks (as well as in many cases extramarital sexual hijinks) aren’t all that interesting to the world outside of the religious bubble.
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Are we sure we can take Andrew at his word? If true, Driscoll and his pals have only proven again they are bullies and cowards. But are we sure it’s true?
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Well…. what about after I get my plank out? NOW can I become the splinter inspector?
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I remember that post. It was another brick in the wall for me.
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Dead to Christ? You’re seriously pinning this kinda behavior on Jesus, as if it’s what he advocated or how he acted? Come on now, I don’t blame you for feeling bitter, but you know better than that. This is the antithesis of Christ-likeness, and you know it. Not that anger is an inappropriate reaction, though…
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Very true. Understanding the nature of “fruit” is critical to any talk of repentance, or of holiness, or of the Christian walk. A single thought that acknowledges sin is fruit. A small impulse of regret a day later is fruit. Confessing to a brother, asking someone “why do I keep doing this” …all fruit. There’s a world of misunderstanding going on when the ones administering the discipline think “fruit” means a clean record from now on. Programmatic evaluation of every sin in someone’s past, and a systematic scrutiny of every move they make in the present is what Michael Spencer would call “church-shaped spirituality.” Jesus need not be in the spotlight for any of this. The Church of Christ (a fringe sect at best) does this, as do groups that are outright cults. Jesus has remain absolutely necessary to any system of penitence and restoration. If the “cost” of sin can’t be absorbed by those administering of discipline, you don’t have a cross-centered sanctification going on, no matter what sort of buzz words you use to describe your movement.
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Please let me know if you ever find these mythological half goat-half orangoutangs. I don’t think they exist, but I’ll believe in them when I see it 😛
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Amen! I am not loudly protesting church discipline but, I am wanting to know why his sin was posted on an internet forum when he himself went and confessed it to the elders and wanted help. I think there may be more to Andrews problem other than a one time make out session with an old fling but, even if that is the case, even if he was found out and didn’t confess first, should someone post this on an internet forum? Why would you ever confess your sin if you thought you would be humilated in this manner?
Second, I thought church discipline was a last resort of sorts if someone refused to repent. I am not getting the last resort feel on this one and am really questioning why people refused to say he had repented. What is level of contrition one must have before knowing they have officially repented?
Lastly, After hearing Driscoll talk about visions of seeing rapes, I am wondering why no one came to him with his own discipline card. He is now receiving visions from God. Or perhaps his vulgar commentaries on marriage and sex? Why aren’t the leaders held accountable?? Since everyone in these church loves accountability, let’s start accounting!!!
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You’re not dead to Christ Eagle, you’re dead to Driscoll. BIG difference.
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“…but he SAID Jehovah!?”
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Michael , got an off-topic question. but you say your canadian..and your mention of mennonitte leads me to believe you are from a mennonite community in south-eastern manitoba?
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No. Maybe. Sort of. The Christian approach to un-believers is to be love and compassion, inviting them into the mercy of God and to become a part of the church. Un-repentant Christians need precisely this: Let it be known that un-repentant sin IS unbelief, and unbelief makes one not a part of the church. We not so much kick them out as help them to see they have already left. Therefore, these people ought not receive communion. As Christians, we do not deny friendship to our enemies, but we can deny them the wafer.
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You know, He Who May Not Be Named running Mars Hill is very into hypermaculinity and macho aggressiveness — kind of like a predator’s behavior, both in dominance heirarchy and hunting prey.
What do predators eat after they’ve killed off all the prey?
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To break the seal of the confessional is Automatic Excommunication.
In American law (ruled on very early in the country’s history), this is called “Priest-Penitent Privilege” and is privileged information which cannot be subpoenaed or called in testimony.
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Church discipline? What? My simple response: “Judge not lest ye be judged.” or “Before you point out the splinter in your brothers’ eye…..pull the plank out of your own.” or….”Let him without sin throw the first stone.” Jesus seemed pretty clear.
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Yeah, I would say they are cult-like, but their theology is technically within orthodoxy, so there are major distinctions between them and, say for example, Mormonism. Granted, they may yet become one, because charismatic leaders and controlling tacts are the prerequisites, but they have a ways to go before Joseph Smith status.
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One might as easily rephrase as follows:
A church without the love and grace and forgiveness of Jesus is one that, apparently, believes it has nothing of significance to offer and, therefore, isn’t concerned about whether or not it’s congregation is acting appropriately (biblically). Fellowship can not occur without love and grace and forgiveness.
But I wouldn’t even do that because I think the assertion that there are churches that believe they have nothing of significance to offer and therefore aren’t concerned about their congregation’s behavior, is simply setting up a straw man, and not terribly graciously.
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“Christians are just as sex-crazed as anybody else in the culture, just in a completely different direction.”-Headless unicorn guy
Good example is “the christian side hug”.
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The Anabaptist church that I grew up in had the whole denomination split over facial hair. It seems that food in the beard made greeting with a “Holy Kiss” unbearable. If you have 3 Anabaptists in a room you have 4 different opinions and 5 different denominations.
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The documents do not come up for me. Is anyone else experiencing this?
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A Sucks To Be You Theology ™? That is flat out brilliant. The most appropriate description of the fundagelical approach to sin. That and the Gospel of Try Harder.
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Eagle, I reject this evangelical concept of “Bereamism.” This whole idea of every layman being his own doctrine police is not only un-biblical, but completely against the point of the passage describing the Bereans that is quoted to support this crazy idea. It’s like the whole thing with “besetting sins.” It’s mentioned ONE TIME in Hebrews, and people have built entire theological systems on this, with dozens of books written about “how to overcome your particular besetting sin,” or “how to discover what yours is.” This misses the point: The besetting sin, as revealed by the context, is unbelief (no offense :P). Similarly, the passage in Acts 17 that talks about Bereans is NOT referring to evangelical Christians holding their pastors accountable to teach according to the Scripture, because then this leaves us arguing over whose interpretation is correct. The Bereans were devout Jews who were examining whether or not the apostolic claims concerning Christ were verifiably the true teaching of the Old Testament scriptures. The rule of thumb is: Don’t make an absolute principle out of something scripture only mentions once. The odds are too high you are misunderstanding it the passage, because absolute principles are found consistently throughout the Bible, not in one offhand reference. Sorry for the rant, but every time I hear “Be like the Bereans,” I just want to shout “I’m NOT JEWISH!”
That, and for some reason, believing in Jesus doesn’t necessarily endow you automatically with the ability to think critically. I know, it’s shocking. It IS possible to have both faith AND common sense, but they aren’t necessarily causally related.
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I am trying to figure out so much spiritually. One thing that has me terrified is what to do aboyut the church problem. When someone says “accountability” my defneses go off, hair stands on the back of my neck, and I’m tempted to grab some Ibuprofun. Accountability for many Christians means control. When I did accountability years ago it was becuase I firmly believed in God and wanted to live a pure life. I never expected to become a whipping boy. But after everything transpired I ran 180 in the other direction and removed myself from Christians as far away as possible. There a few I’ll talk to…but for the most part I don’t. But I’m quite terrified of churches today. It bothers me, I mean IT REALLY bothers me to see cult like, aggressive tactics in Christian ministries and churches that I last saw when I explored Mormonism in college.
It’s frightening….
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Jesus also equated hate with murder but if you think that means they are the same ask yourself, would you rather be hated or murdered? There is no denying we are all sinners. But some sins do have a more profound effect on the people around us and are therefore more serious from a social perspective. The “all sins are the same” stuff doesn’t hold water.
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maybe thats why they wanted a list of all his sexual sins….cause really i don’t know anybody who would want to read that , except for purposes better left unsaid.
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Fair enough, thanks
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You are correct, sorry for the generalization. There are many notable exceptions. But those who have the overwhelmingly large empires, it does tend to dominate their attention. Tactics like the above just seem to common and don’t reflect the shepherd having the best interest of the sheep at heart. And it just seems to me that the larger the independent, non-accountable church becomes, the more this becomes the accepted norm.
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Mars Hill sounds like a spiritual version of the Donner Party? Dinner anyone? 😯
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As someone else said, the documents speak pretty clearly.
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It is ironic that we (of all people) have such difficulty in handling brokenness and sin.
I guess it’s the tension between grace and sin that we find in Romans 5-6.
IMO The church should be someplace where people feel safe.
At my old church, people were publically berated and rebuked for relatively minor infractions (ie. missing bible study and being late for staff meetings). The emphasis was on total obedience.
“How can you claim to obey invisible God, when you do not obey visible man!!”
Interestingly, at my old church, more serious sins were dealt with very privately. We were basically taught to never discuss our sin issues with others in the church, because this was an object of shame. Overeating and lack of spiritual discipline were pretty much the most serious sins that were ever discussed in public. It’s kind of the reverse problem that is described above at Mars Hill. Personally I have found that when we treat our sins and struggles as things that can never be admitted or confessed with our fellow believers (even in a small group) then we are essentially transmitting the message that some sin is beyond the reach of the cross and that the broken are not welcome.
Occasionally, I will hear people say that they want “more accountability” in the church, but having experienced a church where accountability got spun on its head and was used to crush people, I can no longer bring myself under that kind of authority.
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Perhaps some time you would share some of these superstitions with us?
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Agreed. I also suspect that there is more to the story. Even still… that “contract” is out of line.
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But when the person withdraws from the church, that should be it. Finis. Done. The first amendment resides in the individual, after all.
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How about the guy whose tithe check bounced? Maybe security has a picture of him behind the counter too 🙂
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But what about the statement:
During their engagement, he spent an evening with an old fling and acted inappropriately.
What exactly does that mean? I get hints that maybe Andrew is not lily white in this.
Just how do you act inapropriately with an old fling while you are engaged? And if it cost Andrew the relationship you have to wonder why.
Again, without more information it is hard to say. It is easy for us to play kangaroo court when we do not have all the info before us.
All I am saying is that in my limited experiences I have seen similar situations where the person goes off yelling to the press and the reality is that they were exceptionally hard to deal with and effort had been made to reconcile and got nowhere.
So can we really judge Driscolls church without more evidence, only having heard half the story?
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Charles, your tone sounds awfully icy to me, and I have perfect pitch on my Spidy-Sense.
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The practice of keeping quiet about the sins someone confesses to you is something protestants can learn from Catholics.
I am Christ’s representative to my brother who confesses his sin to me. I offer absolution in Christ’s place.
The same treatment is offered to me every sunday when we offer the prayer of confession.
I cannot believe the nonsense that Driscoll pulls.
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yep.
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SottoVoce,
If you hadn’t left, you might have been escorted from the premises by security just for speaking up!
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Me, too…”jealousy with a halo”….well, maybe jealousy with a tin halo is more accurate? Great, regradless!
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I’ve heard this again and again from folks much wiser than I reg. what to do when in a situation of deep spiritual abuse: they all say “RUN”. Maybe the first teacher I heard say it so plainly was Dr. Ken Blue, who has a book out on the subject. Getting out of there might have been the most helpful thing you could have done.
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Please explain the question.
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A church without “church discipline” is one that, apparently, believes it has nothing of significance to offer and, therefore, isn’t concerned about whether or not it’s congregation is acting appropriately (biblically). Fellowship can not occur without accountability.
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okay, I take back the tone of the above remark. I see from your remarks above that you have been personally hurt by Mars Hill, and I realize that may indeed make it difficult to separate the problem from the people (when they are the same people who hurt you).
I know little of Mark or Mars Hill (I heard him speak once; it was ok), and have no desire to defend what happened.
I hope you find healing.
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I am not advocating overreaction in this vein, because I think Andrew did the right thing by leaving, but how else should we interpret the Scriptures that Mars Hill is using, as church members, when we know believers who are in unrepentant sin? If individual confrontation doesn’t solve the problem, should we really take two or three others and then tell the church? Who really does that? This example is going too far, way too far, but the church is still trying to be lovingly biblical. They’ve elevated the Bible over love and over simple common sense and sensitivity, but I still would rather be in a church that wants to follow every jot and tittle than one that doesn’t care about following the Bible’s instructions and would rather turn a blind eye.
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Really, did you just write that? Where am I defending anyone? I even stated I disagreed with how it was handled.
Did you see Mike’s note at the start?
NOTE: This post is not about a certain well-known pastor, even though it involves the church he leads. In the discussion that follows, I am not interested in having us talk about this pastor personally. So don’t. Please keep the conversation on the subject of church discipline itself, more broadly. We focus on these articles because they present a detailed description of a church discipline process that gives us a rare inside look at how a congregation attempts to deal with Christian sin, repentance, and restoration in the church.
This does not seem like a difficult request on Mike’s part.
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My writing partner told me about a Mennonite Colony in Belize that split into a church civil war because somebody rode a bicycle (“worldly trapping” or “Sabbath breaking”).
And one old character at my gaming/hobby club claimed to be a descendant of Roger Williams; according to him, Williams founded Rhode Island because he was run out of Massachusetts Bay because he wore something decorative (like a scarf or hat) that meant he was The Devil. And he set up Rhode Island with religious freedom and Indians represented in the government to flip the finger at Massachusetts.
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I don’t want to appropriate the title of “Berean”, as I am not worthy of it. But when I started to get uncomfortable with the way Scripture was handled at MH, I left. And I think most of the true Bereans have left, too. Maybe we should have stayed. But what could we have done?
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Fair enough, but know that when those of us who have been severely damaged by places like this and maybe even had our faith destroyed, reading comments like yours make us glad we left Christianity behind. Too many people willing do defend the abusers rather than the abused.
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I think this guy’s gone beyond Joseph Smith.
Not as far as Jim Jones, but he’s gotten up to the big leagues.
Many fundys define cult by theology…but they ignore the control aspects.
That’s what I found out the hard way in the Seventies, when ALL the Christian cult-watch groups defined “cult” entirely by parsing theology. Result: Asleep at the switch when serious spiritual abuse went down by splinter churches and parachurches who were OK theologically but “cultic” in all other behaviors. Fortunately I didn’t get burned as bad as Eagle.
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Right, I’ve heard of this with Catholic churches too, where even after court charges have been filed and the cleric has confessed to the crime, many of the parishioners still want to honor him. Truthfully, I don’t know what the answer is in that kind of case. Except in the case of episcopally led denominations, discipline is in the hands of the local church body.
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I think it unhelpful and unloving to label the church as a cult based on the information of this post. These are our brothers and sisters, and no less deserving of love and grace than Andrew or anyone else. It is fine to disagree with how they handled this (and I do so) but lets keep it focused on the idea of how a church should or should not discipline (or whether they should) instead of how wacky these people are or are not. Chaplain Mike did just this in his post, and we should follow his lead.
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When there are only two classes — the bullies and the bullied — the only way to stay out of the latter is to become one of the former. At which point, you have to keep becoming a bigger and bigger bully (out-competing the others) to keep from falling into the other class. This dynamic has empowered control freaks and their goon squads throughout history, like the Lure of the Inner Ring crossed with a concentration-camp Kapo who stayed out of the ovens only so long as he kept shoving other prisoners into them. This is a seriously Ugly dynamic, and putting a Christian coat of paint on it makes it even Uglier. Because then, even God and Christ become just The Biggest Bullies around.
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The primary issue that made it personal for Luther and put the passion in his reforming efforts was this very issue: confession, repentance, penance, and forgiveness. They may not have stopped speaking sound gospel formulae, but they have stopped practicing the gospel if this is how they deal with sin. They can talk about the gospel all they want but when they require people to do what they asked this young man to do, they are relying on human repentance and works and setting themselves up as the judges of when a person has done enough to merit forgiveness. If that is not contrary to the gospel, I don’t know what is.
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Joseph, Christians are just as sex-crazed as anybody else in the culture, just in a completely different direction. (Or should that be “obsessed” instead of “crazed”?) And this is a megachurch whose Celebrity Pastor/Leader has given indications of being completely sex-obsessed himself (“I See Things…”) and whose heirarchy follow his lead. As well as being control freaks, and control freaks will freak out at any deviation or challenge to their control and power. I don’t think they could be capable of handling that area of behavior delicately OR appropriately.
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Anonymous: That’s why they tried to extract a detailed confession. If he ever threatens to sue, they can use the confession to blackmail him.
This church has obviously studied the methods of Scientology.
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Yet what happens when an Anointed CELEBRITY Pastor starts using that security as his own personal Inquisition and Secret Police?
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“Hooliganism.” In the USSR, that was the catchall charge used against anyone the KGB wanted to round up for any reason whatsoever. Not Political, Hooliganism.
And nothing gets Fundagelicals in a snit more that somebody else’s Juicy Sexual Sin.
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Good timing, that. I assume Nicaragua has no extradition treaty?
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That quaint little custom has always reminded me of Show Trials in the old USSR.
Rank Hath Its Privileges. As an “Elder’s Son”, he was a (Parisienne Accent) ARISTOCRAT and she was just a Commoner.
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JMJ/Christian Monist has written about this many times on his blog, specifically the idea/meme that once you’re Saved, suddenly everything is Spiritual and Pure and Righteous just like someone flipped a light switch, and that all the baggage your life has accumulated “before” suddenly and magically disappears forever. The result is to fake it — absolute perfection, absolute Uber-Christian Righteousness, an actor (“Hypocratos”) playing the role 24/7 around church types for sheer survival — to avoid being turned on by a feral dog pack of Saints Who Have Never Been Caught.
And one day everything just cracks, and you end up in the Post-Evangelical Wilderness or worse.
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You may disagree with his focus and his interpretation of various passages, but please don’t lose sight of the big picture, and please don’t judge his motives without being very certain/having sufficient proof.
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He abandoned the gospel? He is denying 1 Cor 15? I missed that part.
Now, is his interpretation of discipline open to debate? Perhaps.
Look at the comments on this thread. It has gotten out of control. People need to take a step back and take a fresh look.
If you have differences of opinion on the interpretation of various passages, or the methodology used, that is one thing. Those certainly should be discussed.
But people are taking those differences and turning it into a virtual war against that church (calling it a cult. Really?). Again, this has gotten out of control, and we are forgetting common bonds and real threats.
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You ALWAYS denounce the Big Sins which you have NO chance whatsoever of committing. You own favorites… Well That’s Differrent. (Like Homosexuality vs Divorce — keep the escape route handy, never know when you might need it.)
Remember when Gluttony was discussed on this blog a year or two ago? The image of the 400+lb Baptist preacher ranting and screaming about The Other Guy’s (usually Sexual) Sin happens often enough IRL that it’s become a standard trope. (You can find examples on YouTube).
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And just so I make sure I don’t come off as pious – I pray that if I were in Andrew’s situation for grace to respond in the spirit of Christ. I know myself and know that my natural response would be to take it to court.
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“…most people would shun the person charged so badly that the individual would have no interest in continuing to attend church there.”
Unless of course, it was one of the pastors who was accused of molesting kids. I saw it happen with a youth pastor, who was also one of the sons of the head pastor. When the charges were made public, the members treated it like an attack on the church, and rallied around the youth pastor. Although they didn’t literally, physically rally around him–he had decided to move to Nicaragua to do long term missions work about a month before the charges were made public and the arrest warrants were issued.
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This keeps coming up a lot. So Jesus’ words in Mathew 18 should read
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector, by which I mean hang out with them.”
Really? I think the context is clear that Jesus is instructing dis-fellowship with unrepentant brothers.
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They are definitely a cult
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The larger a church grows, the more visibility it gains, both locally and nationally. If the church takes a stand on “controversial issues”, such as abortion or gay rights, it may become a target by people who are on the other side of those issues.
At the previous megachurch I attended, there were protestors over a variety of issues over the years at the church property. When the new sanctuary was dedicated, a young man stood up in the balcony during one of the inaugural services and loudly challenged the leadership on some issues. Because he was disturbing the service, he was escorted out by security.
At this same church, the senior pastor began receiving threats of various kinds. A plain clothes security guard escorted him around the building on Sundays in case anyone tried to approach who wanted to harm the pastor. So I can see a need for churches to have security, especially larger churches with high-profile pastors. Back in 2009 the pastor of the First Baptist Church of Maryville, Illinois was shot dead during a service. And in 2010 a youth leader was shot while preaching a sermon to a youth group at an Assembly of God church in Garland, Texas.
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Amen.
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They’re all hanging out with the Internet Monk, Eagle. 😉
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Brennan Manning is a great example of what you’re talking about Isaac/Obed.
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A lot of it IMO is seeing a deficiency in one direction, then WAY overreacting in the other direction. People grow up as generic evangelicals, with no more theology than “believe in Jesus and don’t do drugs,” then discovered the writings of Calvin and realized that hey, Christianity can be deep, complex, thoughtful, and philosophical. So they respond to the legitimate problem of a lack of theology, and become (to ape a term from a certain talk radio host of whom I am no longer a fan) Calvinazis who treat doctrine as an idol and a source of self-righteousness. I think in this case, people recognize a genuine need for spiritual authority and church discipline, and overzealously fill that void with something very close to abuse.
What’s so frustrating about this is because the overreaction is often in response to a legitimate problem, the overreactors inoculate themselves against all correction. They render themselves unable to recognize that they’ve gone too far. Spiritual abuse? Well at least they’re telling young men to submit to authority and be sexually pure! Why can’t you understand that they’re trying to reach young men? You just don’t GET the problem they’re addressing.
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“But such is the case for non-denominational church leaders: They are more interested in their personal empires than the kingdom of God.”
Ummm, Miguel, I am an non-denominational church leader. If my goal is to establish a personal empire, then I am a complete failure (though my dogs obey me!).
Don’t paint us all with the same brush.
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Yes – I stand by my statement. I do it because I appeal to Christ’s life as example for his followers’ lives. He suffered wrong when He did no wrong at the hands of men with evil intent. So, like a lamb lead to slaughter, so those who follow Him:
Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn’t think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all. When the time came, he set aside the privileges of deity and took on the status of a slave, became human! Having become human, he stayed human. It was an incredibly humbling process. He didn’t claim special privileges. Instead, he lived a selfless, obedient life and then died a selfless, obedient death—and the worst kind of death at that—a crucifixion. (Philippians 2)
I believe that God upended the way the world works with Christ’s death, and made what seems foolish to the world into wisdom. He made death into life, He made suffering wrong into His plan for saving the world. So too followers of Christ believe that when we suffer wrong it works out to good –
That’s why we can be so sure that every detail in our lives of love for God is worked into something good. (Romans 8:28)
So then suing is off the table – Christ rejected that eye-for-an-eye thing.
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Thank you!
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Yeah, I agree completely that we can’t really evaluate this incident based only on one side of the story; I’ve done way too much marital counseling to think anyone (even with the best intentions) can state their side of a conflict completely fairly. We are incredibly prone to self-delusion, especially in conflict situations.
The documents, on the other hand, tend to speak for themselves.
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The difference between “lead” and “drive” is huge. HUGE! Like — “I’m-reading-a-different-book” huge. This is one of the reasons that inerrancy/literalism gives me the willies.
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Yep. And we need to exercise the grace of Christ by loving the habitual sinner (heck, who doesn’t have habitual sins?) even if he or she doesn’t get better.
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That’s why I mentioned informing the church members to protect them. After that, it’s still a matter of public record if the person was charged. If the person wasn’t charged, then you enter a nebulous world where you must weigh the two side of the story.
I would think, though, that most people would shun the person charged so badly that the individual would have no interest in continuing to attend church there.
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Ah! Thanks. Still don’t like the implications for interpretation by someone who may already have power issues.
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In Berea, duh! 😉
Seriously, though, sometimes I wonder if the difficulties and extremes that typify Church discipline (none at one end and this kind of thing at the other hand) are due in part to the inability for the folks exercising the discipline to be not be emotionally involved and not have a personal stake in what’s going on.
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Great quote. thanks
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Okay, but how do you deal with the church member who has been charged with a crime against a child, but is not incarcerated? People just assume that you call the cops, the cops haul the person off to jail, and that’s the end of it. But, that isn’t how it goes.
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What I am referring to are the people who would search their scriptures. Who would test what they are taught by Mark Driscoll or anyone else and see if that is what the Bible teaches. This “discipline” (interpret as spiritual abuse) is a bastardization of everything. So the person who confesses is to be ostracized in the end and treated like a tax collector, etc.. What did Jesus do…? Did he shun the tax collector? He hung out with the tax collectors!!
Critical thinking skills have gone out the window. In Crusade I saw that Bill Bright thought for many people and that they didn’t think for themselves. In many churches people hang on to every word of the celebrity pastor and don’t check what is being taught against what the Bible says.
Where are the Bereans today?
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It’s a particular translation of Gal. 3:24
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wow…
{scratches head in mild beffudlement}
simply wow…
what a sad tale of uber legalism even it was meant to preserve tradition…
Lord, have mercy… 😦
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So many churches in this theological movement are absolutely obsessed with spiritual authority, and the exercise thereof. It’s sick.
Those floating in the “wilderness” are often criticized for refusing to be under authority, as though that will draw people to church before the blessings of fellowship, word, mission, sacrament, etc.
Just last night I made this comment during a little facebook debate. I was corrected (proof-texted) by a young neo-reformed pastor. Shocking.
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My Grandmother was excommunicated/shunned from her Mennonite church when she married my Grandfather. His crime… he wore a tie, something that was considered a “worldly trapping” by her church at the time. By the way my “sinful” Grandfather ended up as a Bible translator.
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another thought:
instances like these are usually clear examples of a ‘selective’ use of so-called church discipline…
it is selective with what is being addressed as well as who the offenders are & who in leadership benefits from it the most…
Lord, have mercy… 😦
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They do seem to drink a lot of koolaid.
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You need to expand on what you mean Eagle
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Treat him as a Gentile and tax collector? Didn’t Jesus hang out with Gentiles and tax collectors?
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Very good point. I’ve recently begun to recognize that my issues with Calvinism are more issues with some of todays popular expounders of it than with the ideas themselves.
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Many fundys define cult by theology…but they ignore the control aspects. Mars Hill Seattle is a cult, and I see this leading pastor as a modern day Joseph Smith who can say what he wants, do what he wants, and get away with it.
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A desire to microcontrol the adherents’ lives is also the prime way I define what is and is not a cult (in the pejorative sense of the word). This is why I still tend to be iffy about the LDS church. It is not their unusual Christology or concept of apotheosis, but the regular expected temple recommend interviews with its intrusive questioning that gives me pause. Same with the tithing settlement meetings.
I would say that MPT does not qualify because there is no mechanism in place to coerce people into confessing. And following events such as the one herein described, I would guess that there will be less confessions in the future. However, there has also been talk about using church discipline on men who are in homes where the woman earns the income for the family. That would be a case where it would start to slide over into a cult because it is about microcontrolling people’s lives at that point in time.
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I wonder if one could draw any conclusions about underlying theological assumptions in cases like these? I’ll take a shot. This (and perhaps the circumstances that led to Mahaney’s fall?) is simply the latest expression in contemporary evangelicalism’s apparent “surprise” at sin. WIth characteristic “edge,” new Calvinism has assumed, much like the swath of Gospel-lite church expressions we’ve witnessed over the past 30-50 years, that Christians don’t sin, or “mostly” don’t sin, or if they do it’s an aberration and there’s a quick fix, and if the quick fix isn’t committed to, it must be because someone’s not really saved, or at least not “serious” about their faith. In the current iteration of holiness-hype, the buzz-word “gospel-centered” is nailed into place by the occasional mention of the cross, (and maybe some Calvinistic theology), and is then used to vindicate whatever disciplinary practices, or program-driven agenda the leadership gets excited about. Congratulations. It’s moralistic deism 2.0.
When you don’t expect Christians to be basically sin-free, you don’t feel the need to enter attack mode when it happens, or engage in what Andrew correctly identified as “voyeurism.” You are quick to accept penitent behavior and welcome people into the fold, regardless of their failings, and you don’t assume that some bullet-point fix-it program for “life change” is going to take hold of people’s spirits.
There are elements of MH and other neo-reformed ministries that I have enjoyed and benefited from, and I do think there’s a good reason they caught on when they did. But I see a crossroads sometime in the near future. The movement is going to have to choose between cheapening the Gospel in the service of pampering the program and the theological emphasis, or they are going to have to re-vitalize and question several of the assumptions they’ve been working with. It’s not going to be easy.
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People also need to understand that even if one is in habitual sin, they will likely make mistakes in the future. Does the 450 lbs guy who struggle with food suddenly stop eating unhealthy food? No…he may splurge on a twinkie at 7-11. Is a guy who is an alcholic going to have a perfect future without any mistakes?. No.. Same for the guy into porn, sex, etc… Many funagelcials look at faith as being simple and clean. Life IS NOT black and white. Life is messy and hard. Everyone has their own issue…but when you are in a culture that defines sin as something the other person struggles with; and not yourself. Well it’s more of a “sucks to be you” theology.
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Miguel…for those who are Chrisians…I ask… Where are the Bereans?
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Yeah…when is the next time you hear of someone being disciplined do to greed, gluttony, pride, etc..Good thing MH doesn’t disciple pride of its lead pastor would be screwed.
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After this pastor’s take on the SOS? What is stopping him? The Pastor isn’t following the Bible?
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I’m going to disagree and say that suing, even if he ultimately loses (and if what is claimed here is true, that they continued discipline after his withdrawl, he wouldn’t be likely to lose), it would bring hoots of derision down on the church, and to some degree disrepute, and it would make the church far less likely to do the same thing again, thereby protecting other people in the future.
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For those of you are who Christian…again I ask. Where are the Bereans?
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Pattie…
I got home and read that post on Matthew Paul Turner before going to bed. I almost wnet through the roof at 1:00 AM when I read all this….
My thoughts on church discipline extend to how the confession was handled. Was the person caught n the act, did they deny it? Or did they come forward and confes it voluntarily. For me its stuff like this that keeps guys from confessing stuff becuase they know what is to come down the pike. Thus it leads to more dishonesty and re-inforces the facade that Christianity is.
When I read this last night I wanted to go through the roof and simultanouesly weep. This brought back memories of my own personal confession of sin that occured in Campus Crusade. I never knew that my own confession would be held against me years later. I never knew that someone would try and use that confession in such a way as to create obstacles in my career. I never knew that it would be handled so unprofessionaly and in such a slimy manner. And after everything transpired and I was left realzing what happened…how do you I think I felt when when my Campus Crusade for Christ Accountability Partner ended up living a double life. So the guy who confesses is hounded and pistol whipped, and the guy who conceals everything and lives a dishonest life walks away with no harm as if nothing happened.
And people like me who were beaten and bruised are expected to believe that Christianity is the “good news?” No….my experience with Christianity taught me that its a disease on this earth and very cancerous to its core.
Man the rage that went through me last night at about 1:00 AM had me wonder….how am I going to sleep?
The irony in all this is that my accountability partner was really into this particular pastor. He wanted to move from Milwaukee to Seattle to be a part of this particular church. You know I feel so much safer outside the church. No spirtiual abuse, no condemnation, no guilt manipulation, etc.. I’m actually quite happy to be dead to Christ…
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Is Mars Hill possibly a ‘cult’?
Reason I ask is that ‘controlling’ seems to be a huge thing with that Church and its leaders.
Yes, I know about how they see ‘women’, but it’s the controlling thing that makes it seem cultic to me.
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I think he could win – but I would have strong apprehension about following that route because of what Paul wrote about brother going to court again brother. Better to suffer wrong in the pattern of Jesus’ life.
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***addendum***
i was once in a leadership position in a small Pentecostal/charismatic church that embraced the renewal/prophetic trends that were popular at that time…
the real underlying issues had to do with the personalities of the pastor’s wife (co-pastor) & my x-wife, & some theological differences. it was not handled in a sensitive manner, but was an ambush tactic clothed in spiritualese gobbledygook & couched in such a way as to make it appear to be for our own good…
i was relieved from my leadership role since it was implied i could not ‘control’ my then wife that had a ‘Jezebel’ spirit of rebellion & division…
Lord, have mercy… 😦
we moved away shortly after that due to unemployment & new job in another town. and it was enough of a negative experience to catalyze my own church detox period where i reevaluated what i believed in & why. that experience fine-tuned my spiritual bullshit meter to a very sensitive level, which is one of the positives gained… 😉
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“I don’t hink comparing sexual sin to a eating a gallon of ice cream is useful.”
And yet Jesus compared even a fleeting moment of lust with adultery. Actually, that’s not quite right. He explicitly equated the two. The point is that we are all sinners, even if this manifests itself in different ways. If we declare certain sins to really truly count while discreetly overlooking others, this allows us to thank God that we are not sinners like those other people. Jesus had words on that subject, too.
But if you want to go down the road of rating various sins by word count, then I respond that Jesus had virtually nothing to say on the subject of sex. On the other hand, he droned on incessantly about social justice. Show me examples of this church disciplining members for being insufficiently heedful of the plight of the poor and I will be impressed.
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I guess I don’t see how (maybe) sleeping with your fiance could be considered “rampant sexual immorality”
This is about control, nothing more.
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No actually, many of us who have the biggest problem with Mars Hill understand the context very well and see how Driscoll uses this claim of how Seattle is *so* different to justify his behavior to otherwise reasonable Christians in more conservative parts of the country.
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I second that….plus I find the irony that this pastor can say what he wants, treat people without any respect, and get away with it. I too Marie am glad to be agnostic.
But for those who are Christians I ask you…where are the Bereans?
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I’m actually guessing this guy had already done something to challenge church leadership before this event and they were looking for a way to take him down. This is how elders who challenged Driscoll’s authority were treated, only it usually wasn’t with allegations of sexual sin, usually something much more strange. I have no insider knowledge of this individual situation, but my guess is that this is all just a cover.
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My expereince taught me that if I confessed my sin in Catholcism it would have had a healthier outcome. These tactics used by the church at issue are cult like, if not cultish. I wonder how much longer people and Christians are going to stand by and make excuses for this pastor. For those in Christiandom I ask…
Where are the Bereans?
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So trying to reach young men for the gospel justifies abandoning the gospel in order to reach them?
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This particular church clearly has “hating the sin” down extremely well, and has completely forgotten “loving the sinner.”
That’s because Driscoll thinks that’s a false distinction…listen to his “God hates you” rants, they’re very sweet.
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Church discipline was meant for the restoration of the sinner to God , first and foremost. This was not a public sin but a private one and it should have been kept between Andrew, his fiancee’s family, and at most only two other people: the one to whom he confessed and whoever is in a position to bring about the repentance and healing. Everyone else is on a need to know basis. The “repercussions” of this are “widespread” because the leadership chose to make it so, and that is a gross violation of the spirit of discipline.
C.S. Lewis said it best: “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies . . . Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
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When it comes to this one particular church and how the discipline was handled… I have one question for Christiandom today….
Where are the Bereans?
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Long ago, I warned that congregations which attract followers by the tough, macho way it attacks and bullies outsiders would eventually eat their own young by turning that wrath inward to its own members. Well, here we are. Nothing to see here. Those who stay at Mars Hill need to understand that they are always one defect away from falling from the elite class of bullies to the bullied. They do so at their own risk and that of their loved ones.
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i happen to be one that thinks the attempt at church discipline in this instance should get an ‘E’ for effort, but i do agree, the whole process described here seems askew…
it is commendable to have some form of ‘official’ church discipline incorporated into such a large attendance/membership. as such there seems to be a deliberate effort at keeping individuals ‘connected’ thru the arrangement of small groups. the church seems to be serious about relationship even as it addresses the challenges of its size/demographic…
and in a sex-crazed culture, i would assume this one area of ‘behavior’ a very awkward one to handle delicately/appropriately…
all church discipline needs to be handled with discretion & sensitivity & wisdom: Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. Gal 6:1
the focus here stresses restoration, not exhibition or voyeurism or castigation. once the initiator’s ego’s got in the way, it became just another shame based dog-and-pony show without any mercy, grace, love, humility, or simple human kindness & respect…
to make this one instance an example to either ‘prove’ official church discipline is working, or to be used as a means of extracting a pound of flesh from the one that confessed, the worst case of spiritual abuse that is probably not all that uncommon…
i believe spiritual abuse & control issues in churches are not rare or decreasing any today. this one instance a more public exposé that is intended to highlight the issues underlying the incident. i feel sorry for the young man & the young women that were treated as puppets in a religious play that did not elicit anything godly once the final curtain closed…
{sigh}
Lord, have mercy… 😦
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Well said.
I don’t always agree with what Driscoll says, but your comment about his “church is trying to reach young men” is right on. Much of the context around Driscoll deals with that fact, and if people miss that, they really misunderstand him and Mars Hill as a whole.
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Richard
I don’t hink comparing sexual sin to a eating a gallon of ice cream is useful.
No matter how I want to frame it, it seems like the New Testament puts a lot of gravity on sexual sin. We are told to flee from it. And it is not that the Roman world did not have a problem with gluttony, or rampant sexuality.
If I overeat and die from health issues I have affected myself and my family. Fornication or adultery can lead to pregnancy, and suddenly the problem becomes a whole lot larger.
We are living in a sexually promiscous culture and are offended by anyone who dares go against the tide. In my area one of the largest newspapers in the province had an op-ed ridiculing some Christian ladies that had come out saying they would remain virgins until they married.
I do not know the details, but if Driscoll’s church is trying to reach young men, then one of the issues they have to face is rampant sexual immorality. When I became a Christian in the 70s some churches and ministries came down hard on sex sin because it was prevalent in the counter culture (from which most new Christians came). And of course, some people came away offended because they could not handle the strictures. But leaders had to take a hard line to prevent the movements from becoming a hot bed for immorality.
I am not saying this to defend Driscoll, but I think a number of churches are probably guilty of the opposite, they turn a blind eye.
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But once the (obvious) Sinner is driven out, the church is Pure and the Righteous can get back to Polishing their Halos.
Didn’t a certain itinerant Rabbi from Nazareth have a LOT to say about such things?
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I thought it was Authoritah.
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these churches are often obsessed with sex…
Given which megachurch this is, and how its Pastor/Prophet/Apostle has gotten in the news in the pages of this and other blogs (“I See Things…”)…
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Instead of something you hide at all costs to avoid being turned into a pile of rocks by the Righetous.
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Especially if the elder board is packed with blood relatives and yes-men, as has often happened. Control freaks can only tolerate yes-men around them.
Since the megachurch in question is also known for Hypermasculinity and Complementarianism (man that’s a mouthful) to the point of Male Supremacy, “What of it? She’s just a WOMAN.”
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As bureaucratic as Enlightened Self-Criticism in the old Soviet Union.
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How it escalated to excommunication is simply dumbfounding.
Actually pretty easy to understand. In the words of my sociopath brother, “Power means You Can Do Anything You Want. Anything.”
And in the words of Eric Cartman of South Park when he got deputized: “YOU! WILL! RESPECT! MAH! AUTHORITY!!!!” (followed by Rodney King beatdown)
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Depends on whether the Calvinistas in question were Predestined to be control freaks. Predestination is THE Ultimate Trump Card to justify anything.
The well-known-but-unnamed Celebrity Megachurch Pastor heading this whole show is known to be a control freak, and when you add the Divine Right of Celebrity Megachurch Apostle to the mix, the control and abuse can ramp up to North Korean levels.
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I don’t know.
Somehow my experience tells me I would like to hear the other side of the story so as to get a complete picture.
Things are not always what they seem, and often the one who screams loudest is the one who gets both heard and believed.
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Openly promoting confession is a new thing, at least new for me, so i don’t know what the requirements are. I do know, from talking with individuals first hand, that when they have been involved in church discipline, that they have come away feeling loved and perused and restored. And also, while i don’t know if there is official guidelines regarding confidential information, i do trust my church leadership because they have continued to show themselves as people of the highest integrity.
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I’m wondering that, too. How on earth, in a large church, could one recognize all the members and non-members. And, assumedly, non-members would be welcome to attend so they could become members. So the security, I would gather, is to keep protestor-sorts out and maybe people who have been disfellowshipped specifically (I wonder if there are mug shots).
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The appropriate thing to do in the case of a child victim is to call the police and have them deal with it. This is a crime (because there is a victim unlike in consensual adult relationships). Frankly, other than calling the cops and informing the church members for their own protection, I don’t think the church should have any other business in the matter.
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I would be a little nervous also 🙂
But Clutch, that is intriguing to me. As a Catholic, the priests who hear my confessions are bound by an inviolable seal not to ever divulge what is said in the confessional. Will your church have a similar requirement? What would happen if a confessed sin were ever divulged to anyone else? Is there a set procedure that will be followed for confessions?
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Several thoughts:
As a previous commenter noted, one cannot help but wonder if a non-sexual sin would provoke the same process. The sin the previous commenter proposed was embezzlement from the member’s employer. My thought was eating a gallon of ice cream in a single sitting. Does gluttony count as a sin nowadays?
I also wonder if the full reaction wasn’t in part because it was an elder’s daughter involved. But some of the comments suggest that this sort of thing is normal in some circles, regardless of the specific parties involved.
Speaking of specific parties, who was wronged by Andrew? I see several parties. The fiancee, obviously. The old friend he fooled around with as well, though she might not see it that way. Himself. And God. It seems to me that he went about confessing to these parties from the start. Yet all these other people seemed to feel they needed to get in on the action, eventually expanding it to the entire membership. The comment about voyeurism is spot on.
Speaking of the membership, what will they take away from this? One obvious lesson is that if you sin, particularly sexually, then be sure to keep your mouth shut about it. Thus the membership is pushed away from God., making this pretty much an anti-church.
That “contract” is no such thing. A contract requires reciprocity: you agree to build a deck in my back yard, and I agree to pay you. The “contract” Andrew was offered makes demands on him while offering nothing in return. No end game is laid out by which reconciliation can be achieved.
The weirdest part of the whole story is this aside: ““I worked security,” Andrew tells me. “And so, I witnessed unwanted visitors being escorted off the property all the time.”” Huh? I can see a church needing security, particularly if it is in a high crime area. But escorting “unwanted visitors” off the property as a routine event? Again I say: Huh? What is up with that?
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Perhaps my reading list has been deficient, but I’ve never heard the expression “drive us to Christ”. It sits uneasily in my ears.
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Interesting, my church has just started making pastors and deacons available for confession during the coming season of lent. It has caught my interest, although after these posts i am a little nervous, but i believe i am going to a church that believes in restoration and reconciliation.
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Are you seriously equating a sexual decision between consenting adults with abuse of a child? Really?!?! Please tell me I’m misunderstanding this. (It happens).
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I don’t think you can really compare the two. There’s a BIG difference between cheating on a fiancee and molesting a kid.
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I have to say, I don’t see a lack of humility in Andrew. Maybe others disagree (and I admit that I am already inclined to think poorly of Mars Hill). And I don’t think he was trying to remain in habitual sin. It wasn’t like he was caught with this old flame by his fiancee and he refused to repent–he confessed freely, out of guilt over what he had done. And I don’t think that this was a church faithfully exercising Scripture over its members, either. This looks an awful lot like spiritual abuse.
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Random thought (okay not random): Would we have our knickers in such a knott over how Andrew was treated by the big-bad-mega-church if he had behaved inappropriately with a child?
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Man I wish we could like eachother’s comments sometimes.
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As the saying goes, righteous indignation is nothing more than jealousy with a halo.
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When I was in 7th grade I confessed to throwing spitballs in church. The priest yelled at me so loud they heard him outside the confessional, and then he made me say 300 Hail Marys and 50 Our Fathers. The only thing that accomplished was that I never went to confession again. It’s only in the last few years that I have felt sorry for the poor priest who had to sit there and listen to me say 300 Hail Marys and 50 Our Fathers.
And I had not been throwing spitballs at our priest. I’d been throwing them at the pastor of the bible banger church my mother had recently started dragging me (kicking and screaming) to.
My significant other asked me who is my elder in my meeting. I told him nobody because there’s nobody I trust to keep my confidence. He thinks that’s very sad.
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I came from the Christian Reform Church tradition. It is a Dutch Calvinist denomination. I remember hearing stories like this happening at churches. They would make the sexual culprit stand in front of the entire congregation on Sunday morning and publicly confess their sin and ask for forgiveness and restoration. This of course was always after doing the samething with the church council and them making the public confession a condition of restoration. The only time I saw it was for a girl that was pregnant and only 16. It was disgusting. The funny thing was that all of us high school kids knew it was one o the elders sons that got her pregnant. He was not up there going through this personal hell
I was a teenage in the mid eighties. This practice has disappeared I think in the CRC, although it was common before the 1960’s. And if you ask any CRC member they are the truest calvinist in the land. They even named there college Calvin College.
Do not get me wrong there are good people in the CRC but they can be very legalistic and controlling and show an utter lack of grace or humility.
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Marian Guinn v. Church of Christ Collinsville.
Basically, anything as far as reputation bashing that occurs while one is a member of a church is a-ok. There is no expectation of privacy. But: (from the opinion):
“WHEN PARISHIONER WITHDREW HER MEMBERSHIP FROM THE CHURCH OF CHRIST AND THEREBY WITHDREW HER CONSENT TO PARTICIPATE IN A SPIRITUAL RELATIONSHIP IN WHICH SHE HAD IMPLICITLY AGREED TO SUBMIT TO ECCLESIASTICAL SUPERVISION, THOSE DISCIPLINARY ACTIONS THEREAFTER TAKEN BY THE ELDERS AGAINST PARISHIONER, WHICH ACTIVELY INVOLVED HER IN THE CHURCH’S WILL AND COMMAND, WERE OUTSIDE THE PURVIEW OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT [775 P.2d 778] PROTECTION AND WERE THE PROPER SUBJECT OF STATE REGULATION.”
This is largely understood today that when member withdraws membership that is IT for whatever church discipline there is or the church can (and possibly will) be sued. Even defending a case is expensive.
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That’s sad and creepy and abusive and terribly, terribly wrong. This particular church clearly has “hating the sin” down extremely well, and has completely forgotten “loving the sinner.” What Bible are they reading? Mine has a bunch of instructions about forgiving sinners who repent, not beating them over the head with their pasts and shunning them in the present until they are driven away.
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What’s most troubling about these articles is two fold. First, the heavy handed approach and the lack of mercy extended. Second, Andrew’s apparent emotional fragility and lack of humility – neither of which is a virtue. Can we be more kind when it comes to preaching sin and demanding that our member’s take Christ’s words seriously when he says that in order to believe we must be humbled by his words and fighting for spiritual change? Yes. Should we tolerate any justifications for remaining in habitual sin and tolerate seekers who always to try to play the “legalistic card” anytime a church wants to faithfully exercise the Scriptures over their members? No. The problem, in both directions, is a lack of Scriptural adherence, which when you boil it down, is a lack of faith in Jesus .
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I’ll comment a critique after reading MPT’s articles, but first, another thought:
Consider the opposite (and equally wrong) side of the spectrum. In most evangelical churches, it seems that sin is never dealt with at all, but merely swept under the rug as if we were running from our own shadows. I’ve been in a church where the Pastor’s daughter was sleeping around and everyone knew but nobody said anything. She remained in a position of leadership and teaching the youth. Is this healthy either? I doubt it. If sin isn’t dealt with in a consistent manner, then information like this serves only as ammunition for interior politics. The sin can remain hidden until somebody needs to bolster their position, then the reveal and shame someone else just to make a rhetorical point. At the very least, I think it is remotely positive that churches care whether or not their members are endeavoring to “walk in repentance” and does what they can to encourage and guide them down this route.
However, in the case of MH, one can only wonder if the elder’s daughter went through any similar sort of process. Oh, and digging up the man’s complete past: Just manipulative and controlling. But such is the case for non-denominational church leaders: They are more interested in their personal empires than the kingdom of God. Anyways, it comes as no surprise to find a website such as this one:
http://marshillrefuge.blogspot.com
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This reminded me of something I read this morning in F.F. Bruce’s book, Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free. It’s not necessarily a new idea or anything, but I like the way he puts it:
“As an apple-tree does not produce apples by Act of Parliament, but because of it is its nature so to do, so the character of Christ cannot be produced in his people by rules and regulations; it must be the fruit of his Spirit within them.”
It seems to me that this guy’s willingness to repent is fruit in and of itself. To subject to some humiliating process is simply trying to make something happen by imposing a rule, which is always very tempting to do.
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There should be accountability and there is a place for discipline within a church but this seems a bizarre reaction to someone who came forward voluntarily, repents and wants to move on in his spiritual journey with integrity. The issue is now not the first offence – what really sealed his fate was his refusal to submit to the church disciplinary process – which seems completely heavy handed and unbiblical. This is about control not about loving someone who has repented and been forgiven by God.
It is very sad when churches behave like this. It’s pure spiritual abuse and there’s nothing really to be positive about at all except for the fact Andrew had the courage to walk away from it.
What is particularly disturbing to me is the public announcement of Andrew’s sin. Not only is it designed to humiliate but to expose the ex fiancee to public humiliation as well. Truly an appalling scenario. Where is the care and compassion for a repentant? Where is the grace in this?
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I understand the hurt that Andrew is going through. I also understand and agree with the outrage towards this church and other churches that would do such things.
But consider that, however misguided they are, most churches don’t practice any sort of church discipline OR any sort of restorative process.
I was an associate pastor at a church. I made some mistakes that can best be described as carelessness with church funds. The elders saw it as misappropriation. I confessed and asked and pleaded to be restored. But they basically ignored my requests claiming that there had been “discipline” along the way (there had been none). They dismissed me.
I would have loved some sort of contract to allow me to be restored. But I was on staff, so it was a bit different.
What I’m saying is that most churches don’t see any room for restoration. Once someone messes up, that’s it. There usually isn’t a formal process, so what usually happens is dismissal by means of alienation and gossip. Is this any better than what Mars Hill did to Andrew? No.
Don’t get me wrong, although I think that a restorative process should be something that all churches should have, I don’t think that Mars Hill’s handling of this situation represents a restorative process.
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Disclaimier- I don’t have time right now to read everything (I did read both parts of Andrews story) everyone’s already written. So, sorry if I’m repeating.
Two thoughts, quickly…
First, I think it’s unusual for an evangelical church to even attempt discipline, let alone to this degree and depth. Most of the time we’re a day late and a dollar short in all this. With no real idea of what to do when the need comes up.
Second, Scripture is clear that if all else fails treat them “like a tax collector or sinner”. Ok… How did Jesus treat tax collectors and sinners? He hung out with them, had meals/parties with them, told them stories, forgave them…
Just saying that might look a little different.
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true,
these churches are often obsessed with sex, and the drama it creates is like crack for folks who have little else in their lives to entertain them
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I wonder how much of this “discipline” would have been meted out if the sin weren’t of a sexual nature. Can you see all this happening had Andrew confessed embezzling from his company or slandering the reputation of his neighbor?
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Another advantage to a regular practice of confession is the expectation that dealing with sin in the church, under the Gospel, is a routine part of church life.
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I wonder if Andrew, if he wished to do so, could take the church letters to a lawyer and sue the church for unwarranted harassment, emotional and personal damage and defamation, etc. – and probably win an out-of-court settlement?
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Several thngs.
1. i don’t deny this is creepy, way too many folks involved, way too intimate, and way too focused on punishemnet than forgiveness and restoration, from the readings we have (admittedly one sided) this guy should have been welcomed back to the fold, encouraged to seek forgiveness from his former fiancee, and if he has expressed repentance that should be it, i don’t see where he was involved in any sort of leadership position that would require him taking a step down
2. But…. and here is the but, there is nothing really odd or unheard of here in a church that is congregational/elder led. The language they are using here, the steps, the talk of being a “member in good standing” is all very common,
Church discipline is very difficult these days because our society is so mobile. Say that a person truly deserves church discipline (and that should only be when they remain unrepentant) and a church disciplines them, what does that mean? Well in today’s wold not much. They may not get a recommendation if they try to join a church of the same denomination somewhere but what if they leave a baptist church and go to a UMC? Most baptist churches I know will not even grant a letter to a church that is not baptist anyway.
Church discipline was much easier when there were fewer churches, or one parish church, now I fear, the best a church can hope for is to work towards internal discipline of its own members who will admittedly in today’s time have to submit to it voluntarily
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Agreed, Mark and Pattie…
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Great scripture reference…wish I had thought of that one…
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This is so sad, but not unheard of, unfortunately. Several years ago, my daughter was involved in a church using similar methods. A friend knew of a sin DD had committed and went to the elders of the church. They called a meeting. DD went, not knowing what they wanted to see her about. Basically, they ambushed her. Of course, she left , the friendship is broken and interestingly enough, the church has gone through multiple splits,the first one due to the pastor coming out of the closet.
So I wonder … do leaders institute this type of “discipline” in order to try to tamp down their own sin? If they control others to a large degree, do they think they can thereby control themselves? Seems this style is completely fear-motivated, and maybe pride, too. The leaders can fool themselves and project an image that there are no sinners in their church, heaven forbid!
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I appreciate that portions of the Ausburg Confession and the Small Catechism were used here. My take on the situation is this….Some, if not many, leaders in evangelical churches abhor the idea of having episcopal oversight…The idea of popes and bishops nosing around the local, “independent”, “autonomous” church seems horrific and Romish (Was it Nathaniel who said something like, “Can anything good come out of Rome?” ;o)
The end result is that local pastors set themselves up as “mini-popes”, with an elder board that is responsible for accountability. But who’s going to contradict the pastor? I mean, isn’t he the expert? Doesn’t he know how church discipline is supposed to be handled? He helped write the by-laws. If they don’t fit the situation, though, the by-laws can be changed or amended.
These links we read today offer us perfect examples of why episcopal oversight can be a good thing. With a bishop and archbishop in place, a local matter than many elders are going to be passionate and heated about can be managed with an unbiased eye, on the diocese level. Not only does this eliminate prejudice in the process, it also relieves the local pastor of the possibility of seeing his “church discipline contract”, with his name attached, on Internetmonk. ;o)
Isn’t it something how a confessing church can forget the comforting words of absolution? Or how an evangelical body, which operates under the philosophy of “faith alone”, so easily prescribes works as solution to sin?
And didn’t the young woman get naked in this process, too? I wonder where her discipline contract is…Oh, I forgot…She’s an elder’s daughter, isn’t she? She couldn’t have consented. She was obviously overcome by the devil in her fiance’s britches, right? I say this jokingly (kind of), but I know this young woman has likely been shamed beyond belief in this situation, as well. My prayers go out to both of them. I pray that both might maintain their faith through this ugliness, and that someday they might find a church where the Gospel is not only expounded upon, but lived, as well.
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Exactly, Steve. And Christ offers us the forgiveness that we so desperately need.
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Gives new meaning to “Control Freaks” – we just don’t seem very good at cherishing the gifts Jesus gave us. Freedom and Joy.
“Not because we are lords of your faith, but we are helpers of your joy, for it is by faith that you stand.” 2 Corinthians 1:24
“For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you , if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face.” 2 Corinthians 11:20
“Shepherd the flock of God…not as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock;” I Peter 5:2-3
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I’ll note that such public approaches to “discipline”, beyond what they do to the one so treated, also directly tempt others to sin. It could be the sin of self-righteousness or pride — the sin of the pharisee examining the publican. It could be that a particular sin (not necessarily the one in this particular story) so exposed tempts one in a vulnerable situation. There are reasons the church moved pretty quickly from public confession before everyone to private confession. “Low church” settings lack any practical means of confession and are, in my opinion, the poorer for it, even when they are not outright abusive as in this example.
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I struggled with the concept of discipline as an elder. The biggest problem was with musicians (I say this in loving jest, musicians would do the strangest things on Saturday night then come in and want to play an instrument on Sunday morning).
I have changed my viewpoints over the years, now I am to the place where I believe you can’t separate Paul’s letters from 2000 years of church history and tradition.
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One common tenant I have seen of “New Calvinism/Neo Calvinism” is that they take certain aspects of Calvinism and combine it with Independent Fundamentalism to make a strange religion. For a while, I hated Calvinism because I only had been exposed to it by those who follow Driscoll/Piper/Mohler. Once I realized Calvinism goes together with a history and a tradition, then it made sense.
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But…God’s law is STILL in effect. It has a purpose.
To drive us to Christ…and the gospel.
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“Gospel. So much better.”
The gospel trumps the law. Everytime.
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First thought….so, EAgle, your name is Andrew???? Sounds scarily close to your pain to me.
Second…..I think I want to throw up. This is not dicipline, this is sadistic power mongering worthy of the Communist Party or the SS.
Thank GOD for the seal of the confessional in Catholic churches. Frankly, even things I have said in small groups over my life as a RC have never, to my knowledge, left those rooms. Like 12-Step programs, it is important to admit that we are ALL sinners and have no room to judge the heart and soul of another.
We even state for SURE that hell exists, but do not proclaim any single person to 100% surely be there. No one save the Lord Himself knows what goes on in the minutes or seconds before death. SOOOO…who are WE to make someone’s life a hell on earth for confessed sin?
I feel sick and sad again….
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Right on, Mark. What I share during the Sacrament of Reconcilitation is not shared with anyone else, not even my spouse, unless I am the one to share it. I should note that for sins involving injury to another, the Priest will usually direct the penitent to make ammends if possible to do so without causing further pain (sort of like AA).
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It was my impression that in historic Calvinistic churches the pirivate confession of sin of sin to a “third party” (so to speak) or Pastor was not mandatory. Neither was it needed to recount all of one’s sins. Additionally it was for the purposes of providing comfort for the troubled soul.
Hence, it follows that confession of this sort ought to be free so as not to be required of all, but to be commended only to those who know that they have need of it. Then, that those who use it according to their need neither be forced by any rule nor be induced by any trick to recount all their sins. But let them do this [private confession] so far as they consider it expedient, that they may receive the perfect fruit of consolation. [Calvin Institutes IV.14]
Does this case strike anyone else as treating Church discipline more as a bureaucratic process than the offering of pardon and absolution?
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I agree with everything Paul said. I have in the last few years begun to appreciate the value of more traditional and institutional structures in churches where there are options for appeal and external as well as internal accountability. It’s not perfect but nothing in this life can be. It’s important to keep in mind that the top people probably have no idea what’s going on at the local level. That paradoxically may make the organization susceptible to a weakness some people wanted to avoid, having a top brass so unconnected to local church activity that problems don’t get noticed. It’s too bad if that is what has actually come to pass.
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What a train wreck. Jesus told the disciples if someone sinned against them seventy times seven a day and asks forgiveness then they should forgive them. The church in question has attempted to reinvent the wheel*dealing with the repentant and church discipline) and has failed miserably
A couple years ago I wrote a guest post here about my experience of private confession and how it preserved my faith. It is indeed a better way.
https://internetmonk.com/archive/how-the-confession-of-my-sins-kept-me-in-the-church-part-ii
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Let us for a moment give the man at the top, the church’s “lead visionary”, the benefit of a doubt. Let’s imagine that the entire “discipline” process was carried out by underlings way down his “chain of command.” Such a sorry state of affairs cries out for some sort of due process whereby a member who has been wronged or maligned by a church staff member or “elder” may appeal his “discipline” and at least receive a fair hearing. Unfortunately, no such process exists in far too many churches.
In the organization which is the subject of the posts referred to above, there is no appeals process whatsoever. The particular organization prides itself as an “elder led” organization not accountable to a denominational board or other oversight. According to the organization’s bylaws, the rank-and-file “members” have no vote or voice whatsoever (other than to vote with their feet or their pocketbooks). And if a member is subjected to “discipline” by the whim of an elder or petty leader, there is no one to appeal to, except the very person(s) who imposed the punishment – which can be a very harsh, overbearing, hierarchical Catch-22 situation for the poor soul who finds himself the subject of the “discipline.”
“The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so.”
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What is it, that a community is so afraid of, that it treats one of its own this way?
I am not without sin. I know how a sin can hurt me and those around me. When I confess my sin to someone it is either to seek his forgiveness, to mend what is broken or to find support to overcome my weakness.
Who made the church into a courthouse? Who will act as a judge?
I became a free man through grace. Who am I to try and force a system of control on my brother who is in need?
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Gross gross gross gross gross. I’m so glad I never had to go through anything this formal, it looks like they’ve become more organized since I left.
Things like this make me thank god I’m now agnostic. Oh the irony.
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The Catholics get a lot of criticism from Protestants for prescribing penance, but this goes far beyond anything I’ve heard of present-day Catholics doing.
If a person confesses sin, is repentant, intends to make restitution where possible, and hasn’t broken the law, I see absolutely no reason why things should go beyond one, and only one, meeting. How it escalated to excommunication is simply dumbfounding. And the form of excommunication (particularly the practical guidelines for how to treat someone like a pagan or tax collector) sounds cultlike, and nothing like Christ.
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Actually, here’s an even better Walther quote on preachers of the Law:
An enforcer of laws, like a jailer, is not concerned about the condition of the heart of the person with whom he must deal, but only about enforcing that person’s obedience. He stands before his victim with a scourge and tells him that the scourge will come down on his back if he does not obey. The jailer is not concerned about godly motives among his prisoners. The prisoners, on the other hand, while they are fast in stocks and in their cells and are forced to obey, are revolving plans in their minds how to avoid being caught at their next theft. That is what a preacher of the law does to the members of a Christian congregation: he puts them in stocks and fetters them.
Let no minister think that he cannot induce the unwilling to do God’s will by preaching the Gospel to them and that he must rather preach the Law and proclaim the threatenings of God to them. If that is all he can do, he will only lead his people to perdition.
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In addition to Luther, I’d quote CFW Walther’s extended discussion about avoiding turning the Gospel into a preaching of repentance:
http://www.lutherantheology.com/uploads/works/walther/LG/lecture-26.html#thesis_15
We reject and regard as incorrect and injurious the dogma that the Gospel is properly a preaching of repentance, or reproof, and not alone a preaching of grace; for thereby the Gospel is again converted into a doctrine of the Law, the merit of Christ and Holy Scripture are obscured, Christians robbed of true consolation, and the door is opened again to the errors and superstitions of the Papacy.
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Ugh. Church discipline is exercised to bring repentance, and then when there is repentance, there is joy and re-acceptance.
This would make more sense for pietists or a church that rejects simul justus et peccator. If one believes that Christians become perfect in sanctification, then a lengthy period of repentence and re-training is logical. But Calvinists reject that, don’t they?
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This a terrible development and such dangers are why the Catholic Church has the seal of the confessional which would discipline any priest who reveals any confession outside the confessional. This will only serve to drive sin deeper into darkness and not only damage someone like Andrew but others in the church who may seriously need confession and help.
I do wonder how much of this has to do with a vindicative father, an elder at the church, seeking to punish the man for exposing his daughter to corruption.
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