I have been reading through the book of Job lately. You know the story. Job suffers the loss of his wealth, his source of income, and most of all, his family. Then he’s visited by some friends who, if you read their words carefully, speak words that would not be out of place in most pulpits this morning. They are meant as comforting words, speaking about God’s faithfulness to the good and his judgment on evildoers. But they don’t help Job at all.
Job’s response is one of growing anger. Anger with his friends, yes, but mostly anger with God. Nice words won’t cut it. Trying to explain God’s ways doesn’t help. Finally Job gets what he wants, an audience with God himself.
So, just a thought as you go to worship this morning. If you have deep wounds in your soul, if you have needs in your life that cannot be solved with a pat on the back and a quick “I’ll be praying for you, my friend,” then come sit by me. In the last few years I have gone from making right at six figures to now working for a little above minimum wage. Disconnect notices pile on my table. My meal options are often hot dogs or macaroni, but not often both at the same time. I won’t go into my family situation, only to say it has been very, very rough. Platitudes and cliches about God don’t do it for me. I no longer can accept them. I am pressing in to know Jesus my Lord as he knows himself to be. Happy-clappy songs turn my stomach. I need real, not plastic. I don’t want God explained, I want God revealed.
If you are in similar situations, it’s ok to be angry. It’s ok to say to your pastor, “Your words today were like those of Job’s friends: empty and without meaning.” It’s ok to tell someone who offers to pray for you, “Are you just saying something nice, or are you going to be on your face with me seeking God?” Job pushed past cheap religion until he reached God. It is very hard to do this today in our Christian culture, but without doing so, we will never be able to say with Job, “I had only heard about you with my ears. Now I have seen you with my eyes.”
Just a thought. Enjoy your Sunday morning, wherever you are.
The Internet Monk Archives 
Jeff,
I’ve always very much appreciated your posts here at IM! I, too, have struggled in recent years so understand your words here. The introduction to Job in the Message written by Eugene Peterson (obviously) is superb!!
I am presently reading Brennan Manning’s book – The Relentless Tenderness of Jesus – and just read of a story where a preacher man, after years of service left his vocation, his family and his country. He spent time working in England (I think) and at one time he laid down in tears and said, “God, I hate you!” Immediately this man feels the presence of Christ and hears Him say, “I know, it’s okay!” And Jesus weeps with this man. He went home shortly thereafter.
I found that story profound!
Hang in there Jeff!
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Happy Birthday to us! I could light a million candles here in Southern England & all would be extinguished by the perpetual non-stop insanity-causing rain.
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Theologianese.
Highbrow version of Christianese.
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It’s our birthday tomorrow. No candles on the cake for me, however. We are under a burn ban here in Tulsa…
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Pastor Mac, I didn’t understand a word of that…is it Pastor code?
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Hey Jeff, I’m right with you.
I’m currently scared of God, because I’m not sure he’s good (in any average sense of the use of that word) & walked out of a church service last week that had too much death & Calvinism in it. Job is waaaaaay ahead of me in the trust stakes, I’d like to yell at God too, but just don’t dare…
And, if I remember rightly, isn’t it our birthday tomorrow? Or is that another IMonk Staffer?
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My perspective of the book of Job is always changing. Growing, I’d like to think. Oswald Chambers’ little book on Job, Baffled to FIght Better, really turned a lot of my previous “insights” on their heads.
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“I don’t want God explained, I want God revealed.”
Good aim, Jeff. That one hit me right between the eyes.
As of late as a leader and teacher in my church family, I’ve been spending way too much time and effort trying to explain God and His ways and what He really meant by this or that scripture to other people — which has really been a front for me once again trying to figure it all out and fit God in a rational box. I know it’s a dead end street, but I just keep making that turn. It’s what my mind and will feel compelled to do.
But a better map or better directions are not what I need. What I need is to have a head-on collision with my Lord and Savior.
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Jeff,
Here I am late as usual, but I didn’t see the post until early this morning.
I can identify. I too went from good income (two of us) to losing our house, being diagnosed with cancer, and realizing that churches wanted younger people and not old people. Thus my wilderness was theological and physical.
All I can say brother is that in the midst of my questioning the Lord, he eventually had to say something (I wasn’t getting it from the Word) and his words were, “my grace is sufficient for you.” One thing I can tell you is that what is happening with you is not punishment. It is the Lord working something in you.
I don’t want to go on and on but I can relate well enough to encourage you in your seeking. Because you will find something. You will find exactly what God wants for you and you will find him in a different light that is more revealing of him than previously experienced by you. Just as it happened for Job.
Grace and Peace.
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Wow, Jeff, I don’t know what to say except to look to the Psalms. Such as Psalm 13. It speaks powerfully to situations like this, and shows you are not alone. I often cry out with these psalms.
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Thanks for this, Jeff. I’ve been sitting for some time, often with others going through the fire. Your post reminded me of a little poem I wrote last year. With apologies:
Afraid — Job 6:21
You are afraid, said Job
To those who had walked beside
Sat with him
Sighed with him
Turned on him when his need was greatest
You see something dreadful and are afraid …
To those closest
Who had embraced in the bright times
Praised in the sun
Wept in the ashes
And now, not alongside
But a-front, pointed fingers and tongues
Among the words and the cries of a heart
You are afraid, said Job
To the bold ones
Who in boldness formed a shadow-Job
Laid it upon him
And lit it afire
You are afraid, he said
To those who kept faith
In a small god who would never permit
An upside-down world —
And in vitamins
And prayers
And exercise
And hard work
And talismans
And walking on the right side of the street
And potions and devices and I would never allow myself to fall so far —
And God said, Be afraid
-S. Gillert, 2011
I cling to my redeemer who lives, but struggle to understand what his promises actually are, and really struggle with what my place is among (or not among) his people. And I sit, and ask and wait. And I will say a prayer for your situation, and ask for prayer in mine. There’s not much else we can do, I suppose, but I figure really praying is worth something. Thanks again!
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One more….
I’m a little more sympathetic to contemporary ‘Job’s friends’ only because in my naïveté I used to be one of them. Like me (back then), this is some folks sincere way of trying to help someone in a time of need. The intentions are genuine but the ‘help tools’ aren’t right and they do more harm than good. But they don’t know any better until (as in my case) a few brick walls later, a train wreck experience somewhere along the way and progressive maturity makes them reassess. These days I would rather offer to mow the bloke’s lawn or run some errands for him than give advice or shallow explanations. And of course down here, a few beers over a barbeque always works a treat!
On the other hand there are those who aren’t really trying to help but simply want to show off their intellectual or spiritual superiority. A few ounces of discernment can sniff them out really quick. An old friend of mine (who was even more blunt than I am) used to have this simple test when someone tried to offer ‘constructive criticism’ to him when things weren’t going too well. He would ask, “are you telling me this because you TRULY care for me of because you want to be a smartass?” Those with genuine care and courage continued and all the others silently walked away.
So to preserve your sanity Jeff, keep away from perpetually victorious, triumphalist Christians and amateur counselors. If they persist, tell them to go play with the traffic. All in love of course 😉
John
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BTW don’t let the title of his post throw you off because it’s about doubt. I’m not hearing from you that you have doubt issues, but the post makes some great points along the same lines of what you said.
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Jeff you might find this
very timely coming from one of Spencer’s old friends who’s only 100 miles away from you (Edmond). He doesn’t have any answers either and he teaches systematic theology for a living! Especially this quote:
John
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Thank you so much for this. Sometimes we forget that our brethren our suffering the same things. As for one comment stating to word it differently to the pastor, just say it like it is. Its not negative to let someone know that they are not giving you the right medicene. How else will a pastor learn to help others if those suffering do not speak up? And just for the record, my husband is a pastor and I know he can handle someone’s grief. Please do not ask someone to dress up their grief or their hurt. Those who are well should be able to handle with grace the raw grief and pain of someone hurting. Thank you again for sharing. And please know that I have prayed for you and your family.
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Nor did Job, Tina. He needed God is all of his awe-fullness. Very few of us are prepared for that, however. I’m not sure I am … but it beats cliched Christianity.
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I understand to some extent where you’re coming from. I don’t need a pat on the back or a “cheer up, sister”.
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Yes, that is the “gospel of America”. It’s muck. It’s just that it happens enough of the time to keep the illusion alive.
Stuff often happens to us that has absolutely nothing to do with what we’ve done or not done. That presents us with innumerable existential questions with very few if any answers. We are left to choose between dispair or hope. It’s better to choose hope, but dispair is the dog that constantly threatens to take a hunk out of the back of our knee….A true friend will fight off the dog while I ponder hope.
T
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Rohr is a great recommendation.
Jeff, I weep for you brother…
T
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But is that not also the gospel of America? Work hard, pay your dues, and you’ll get rewarded? Give your life to Jesus and your problems go away? You are precisely right–the normal human response (here’s depravity at work) is to equate catasrophe with some deeply rooted sin. We still believe this. The premise of Hagin, Copeland, et al, is exactly that: lack of success is lack of faith. Ezekiel’s rather colorful preaching (the Luther of his day) to the first wave of exiles does reinforce this in that Israel’s punishment by being evicted from their heritage was connected to their covenant unfaithfulness. The curses of Deuteronomy were coming to pass. But the rub was what Israel considered righteous was most unrighteous in God’s eyes. But Job also at the same time says bad things happen and we don’t really know why. And without God sovereignly on the throne there is nothing but chaos.
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Sí, el silencio puede ser muy ruidoso a veces, y justo lo que el alma necesita.
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Well, yeah, I became a Kuyperian in spite of my own best efforts to the contrary. I quit at Van Tilianism, however. And Hoeksema’s aggressive supralapsarianism was too over the top, although Bob Godfrey told me a supralapsarian is simply a Calvinist with the courage of his convictions.
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LOL…sounds like one of those verses you don’t want to inadvertently tell folks it’s your favorite verse.
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A veces, el silencio es oro.
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Ok, that made me smile.
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Cuando alguien sufre tan profundamente uno de verdad quiere ayudar, pero a menudo se parece a los “amigos” de Job, no encuentra qué decir.
A veces es mejor quedarse callada ?no?
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Job respond to his hurt with 7 “Oh, that…” (“if only”) cries of deep longing. Here’s what he wished:
Oh, that others could see how heavy my hurt is. 6:1
Oh, that my prayer would be answered. 6:8
Oh, that it could just be over and done with. 14:13
Oh, that my words would matter. 19:23
Oh, that I knew what God was doing. 23:3
Oh, that I could go back to the way things used to be. 29:2
Oh, that someone could actually listen to me, and that God would answer to me. 31:35
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Our mouthwash bottle on the bathroom sink has no label, but has Job 19:17 written on it:
“My breath is offensive to my wife,
and I am loathsome to my own brothers.”
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I was younger when my life fell apart, but I understand how church people react when confronted with loss, especially complicated family situations. I have found that to a certain extent a church ‘may’ be able to deal with cancer and other physical illness but are unable to deal with complicated family situations.
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Because all too often, “I’ll Pray For You(TM)” is Christianese for doing nothing. (Do they preface it with “Be Warm And Well Fed,” Jeff?)
My standard comeback to “I’ll Pray for You” in such situations is a paraphrase of Babylon-5:
“You have a saying: ‘I’ll Pray for You’. We also have a saying: ‘Put your money where your mouth is!’.”
If they don’t take some actual action — even if it’s as minor as passing on job referrals or handing you a box of apricots from their tree — I blow them off.
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Having a bad morning, Pastor Mac?
John Calvin must have peed in his Cheerios or something…
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Bachelor Survival Cooking I developed long ago; don’t know how well it scales up to a family-sized situation:
Bachelor Survival Soup:
Canned chicken broth (MSG-free preferred; sized for best price per unit)
Frozen veggies (solitary or a mix you like, in bulk bags)
Dried pasta or noodles (again, bulk bags)
Seasonings
Just boil the veggies & pasta in the seasoned broth; if you want to add meat, bulk-bag frozen chicken defrosted and chunked.
And if you’re into Pasta, here’s a basic Marinara Sauce:
Canned crushed tomatoes and/or tomato puree and/or diced tomatoes (large cans, whatever’s on special)
Minced Garlic (large jars; one jar will last for a while and they have very long shelf lives)
Italian Seasoning (bulk jar)
Olive Oil
Sautee the garlic & Italian Seasoning in the olive oil, then add the canned tomatoes, cover, and let simmer on low heat for half an hour. One of the things about this is all the variations you can do:
Add frozen chopped spinach with the tomatoes for a one-pot meal. Or chop an onion and throw it in.
For meat sauce, brown ground beef, drain, then add the garlic, seasoning, and olive oil and do as above.
For a wine sauce, add half a cup of cheap Burgundy with the tomatoes (the jug/bottle will last for a long time).
For sausage sauce, drop a few Italian sausages (whole or chopped) into the mix and let simmer. Do NOT use regular smoked sausages; though available in bulk they are far too oily and the spices clash with the Italian Seasoning. I found that out the hard way.
I make a batch of either (or sometimes both) over a weekend, freeze the leftovers in leftover plastic tubs, and piece off them through the week or month. Since both are made with whatever ingredients are on special or available in bulk, normal price rotation will give some variety.
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Jeff,
I’m praying for you. I don’t say it unless I mean it, and I am doing so right now. The truth is deep in you.
Have your f’ you time with God….I know I have had my fair share of those times. All of the cliches you don’t want to hear are the things that will at last see you through. I won’t say them to you now. Just know I am thinking and believing them on your behalf, and I will spend the next few minutes sitting her quietly, holding you before God.
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Pastor Mac, you give some important reminders here. But there is another side to the story as well. The Book of Job is actually an argument against the orthodoxy of the author’s day. Jeff hinted at this when he said you might hear words like those of Job’s friends from a pulpit near you this Sunday. The friends represent orthodox wisdom teaching like that of Proverbs and the book shows the severe limitations of that “biblical” teaching. The Babylonian exiles who received the Book of Job had been through their “Job” experiences and what their religious leaders were telling them about God rewarding the just and punishing the wicked just wasn’t cutting it. You are right: God is bigger and wilder and so much more mysterious than our “orthodoxies.” The only “paradigm” for us in Job is the first response of Job’s friends, when they sat down and shut up and just loved their friend by being with him.
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Jeff,
Praying for you.
As you know I have recently gone through a difficult time as well.
Seems like we have come out on the other side, a little bit wiser, and a little bit poorer. Let me know if there is any way that I can be a tangible help to you at this time.
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Thanks, Don. Send it to 9742 S. Lakewood Ave., Tulsa, 74137
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I mentioned mac and cheese and hot dogs as hyperbole … but I do eat a lot of oatmeal! Add in a bit of peanut butter for a well-rounded meal!
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Like Job’s friends, we hate surrendering to the fact that there are things we can’t diagnose and fix. And we are especially averse to the idea of God as inscrutable. On top of these things, there are few who are willing to take time needed in relationships to earn the right to be with someone in their deepest suffering. So what we hear most often are some form of platitudes or quick diagnoses and fixes that just don’t cut it. Sometimes the best thing for someone suffering the unspeakable and unexplainable and un-fixable is simply to be there and listen, not to try to do anything.
There’s a lot of speaking in Job, but not a lot of listening. I think that may have something to do with God’s rather shocking answer at the end.
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Having a bad morning, Pastor Mac? Please believe when I tell you I’m glad you’re here and involved in the ongoing discussion.
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If you would permit me, I would like to send you a CD of an opera my wife and I have written and produced based on the story of Job. It’s called “Job: a Postmodern Opera of Biblical Proportions”. If you’ll email me your mailing address I would be honored to send it to you. It’s not much under the circumstances, but sometimes music can take us to places we cannot reach any other way.
Shalom
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And the answer back from God? “I ain’t answering your sniveling question. There’s a 5 dollar fine for whining. ” Indeed, God says, “I will question you, brace yourself.” Ouch. That sure doesn’t fit our romantic notion of a loving, caring God, does it? Did God really answer Job’s complaint? All he told him was you’re getting too big for your britches demanding vindication & answers. Paul gets the same treatment when asked to have his thorn removed. You’re stuck with this; you don’t like it but get used to it.
Which gets to the heart of this website, namely, the boomers & their progeny are so culturally conditioned to fixing some need that didn’t get fixed in the manner of their choosing to their total satisfaction as they were promised by evangelicalism that disillusionment with evangelicalism happens. We are offended when God exercises sovereign rights. Providence, frankly, interferes with our notion of fulfillment. This is why orthodoxy is so counter-cultural. Chaplain Mike really bristled at one of my previous comments because of the above because where’s the hope? Where’s the love? Uh-huh. So we become functional Marcionites, functional universalists. Just tell them what they want to hear and skip the rest. Like Jesus cursing the fig tree for having no fruit. Or Jesus condemning other human beings equally created in the image of God. Or Jesus refusing to open shut doors because it’s too late. No, no, no, these acts of sovereignty just don’t work. Doesn’t fit the paradigm, hmm?
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Thank you for your heart filled words. The freedom to share what is hard to express for the fear of what others think or say. To loosely quote a thought of C. S. Lewis – In the storms – it isn’t the safety that we wish – but the goodness of God. I am encouraged by your post.
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My meal options are often hot dogs or macaroni, but not often both at the same time.
You may already know this, but
brown rice
beans
spices
non-instant oatmeal
are cheap (especially if the beans are dried and they and the rice are bought in bulk), filling, healthy, high fiber, fundamental, basic food that will sustain you and help keep you healthy while you await an upturn in your fortune. The cheap processed high-sodium route only seems cheap, but the ills it afflicts are not.
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Jeff – there’s not much I can do, since I’m in England, except hold you in my heart. But I will be present and available to those around me who reside in the same place you are because that’s something I could do. Maybe by being fully open to someone else’s rage at God without platitudes will in some way help shoulder the burden. I don’t know. I can’t fix your problems but I can be one of many fingers that holds you up – even if across the sea!
As for the Book of Job, might I suggest Richard Rohr’s book “Job and the Mystery of Suffering”? Besides being an excellent study of the Book of Job, he writes insightfully about suffering and God’s grace. He doesn’t paint a rosy picture but one of hope out of despair. My copy has so many passages underlined that I’ll be forever referring back to it.
Blessings and peace…
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Great thoughts Jeff. I wonder the same things too about people who say they are praying for me. All too often to me it just seems like empty words. Sometimes I wish someone would just take some time out of their day and talk with me about things, rather than simply just say they will pray for me. Praying for people is indeed good, but it seems like it has become an excuse for not diving into a person’s mess and being with them through it. I’d *almost* rather someone sit down with me, talk with me, and show me they care rather than pray for me. I think it would go a lot further.
Also it seems as though people don’t want other people to dive into their problems with them, or at least I seem to get met with resistance every time I try. The effect is that I think people don’t want to do this with me either, so I hesitate to be as open as I would like because I think it is not desired.
And for a quick final thought… while I understand what you are saying in this post and appreciate it very much… technically speaking I would advise people to be a little nicer with their pastor rather than telling them bluntly that their words were like the words of Job’s friends. Pastors tend to get a lot of negative feedback, so I’m not a fan of giving them *more* negative feedback. Perhaps meeting with the pastor and telling him what “you” are going through would be a more productive method, at least first. If the pastor responds well and “changes” then you’ve avoid unnecessarily insulting him. Just a thought… again I really appreciated this post, good thoughts.
And I’m waiting for the worship band to start practicing this Sunday…
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