Note from CM: Thanks to our friend Steve Brown for giving us permission to re-post this spot-on, to-the-point devotional about grace. Relish this. This is the good stuff.
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Confession: In my lifetime, I’ve believed and taught some pretty dumb things.
One of them: If you memorize Scripture, pray a lot and do religious stuff, you will sin less, be more obedient and have a powerful witness for Christ in the world. The principle is: Garbage in, garbage out.
I’m a lot older and somewhat wiser. I now know that this idea suffers from two fatal errors…maybe more.
The First Fatal Error: The Belief That We Are A Lot Worse Than We Think We Are And It’s Up To Us To Make Us Better.
Do you know what bothers me? Systems for godliness. I want to please God more than you can imagine and I read more books than you can imagine in the fond hope that someone will tell me how to please God. What they say simply doesn’t work and, if I end up meeting the people who wrote the books (and I often do), the truth is, it hasn’t worked for them either.
Every time someone tells me the ten ways to have a closer walk with God, I go off on another tangent of praying more, memorizing Scripture more and doing more stuff that I think will be pleasing to God. And then when I find that “Jesus has left the building,” I keep kidding myself that he is still there and that I’m quite godly. After a while, I’m so phony I can’t even stand myself.
Religious stuff doesn’t make us better…it makes us more religious.
That’s what Jesus meant in John 5:39-40 when he criticized the religious people for thinking that the Scriptures would give them eternal life when, in fact, all they did was point to him in whom was life.
I think it was the late Vernon McGee who said that the danger with most Christians is that we say what we’re going to do, talk about what we’re going to do, and think that we have done it when, in fact, we haven’t done it at all. That is, of course, true of religion. We think that the more we “do” religion, the more godly we are. Sometimes just the opposite is true.
The Second Fatal Error: The Belief That Being More Godly, Spiritual And Religious Is Even The Point.
What is the point then? The point is Jesus.
Jesus said that if we were really tired, we should come to him.
Jesus said that if our lives were empty, we could come to him and he would give us abundant life.
Jesus said that if we were sick, sinful and very needy, he would be there for us.
Jesus said that he came to love the people who couldn’t pull off the religious thing.
Jesus said that he was a shepherd and not a butcher. He loved the sheep and gave his life for them.
Jesus said that he was light for the darkness, bread for the hungry, water for the thirsty.
Jesus said that if we ran to him, he would never kick us out.
In fact, Jesus’ harshest criticism was reserved for the religious, the sanctified and the pure.
The spurious idea of “garbage in, garbage out” is just that…spurious. I don’t know about you but I’m quite good at multi-tasking. I can memorize Scripture, pray, and sit in church, and at the same time, hate, lust, covet and be really ticked off at and unforgiving toward the person who is sitting next to me. Not only that. I found that the garbage doesn’t come from the outside but is a lot closer to home…me (Mathew 15:10-20).
Am I saying that we shouldn’t read and memorize Scripture, that prayer and going to church are bad things? Are you crazy? I’m a Bible teacher, I couldn’t survive without prayer, and I make my living working as a religious professional.
To play on the words of C.S. Lewis, those who run to Jesus get him and his love with forgiveness, eternal life and sometimes even godliness thrown in. Those who focus on godliness get neither Jesus nor anything else.
The Internet Monk Archives 
Different Steve Brown. This one is a PCA Presbyterian, has a ministry called “Key Life,” and sometimes teaches at Reformed Theological Seminary. Sometimes goes by the nickname “The Old White Guy.”
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Steve Brown is one of my favorite preachers and I’ve been listening to his stuff for… well, nigh on 20 years. Well, more than 15, but less than 20. Somewhere in there.
One thing I’ve come to realize about Steve is that his often-alleged antinomian tendencies are reactions against his own default tendency of being legalistic. He’s not antinomian, but he sometimes looks that way because he’s fighting his own proclivities toward being overly religious and focused on “doing right.” I also think his lack of laying out what exactly “abiding in Christ” looks like is similarly a reaction against the hyper-systematic tendencies of Reformed theology. He’s a solid Reformed guy (says he can recite Westminster backwards if pressed, let alone forwards), and so he’s immersed in systematic approaches to the faith that have an answer for just about everything. And thus he doesn’t give solid answers all the time.
I can tell you this, though: when it comes to some of this stuff, you know it when you see it, even if you can’t (or won’t) always systematically define it.
That said, some of what you bring up frustrates me, too, these days. Especially now that I’m on the other side of the pulpit.
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i just watched the documentary “Bible Quiz.” Talk about weird superstition that memorizing the Bible will automatically make you a more godly person.
Kids basically being poisoned…the way they recite the passages at lightning speed while staring at the table…for points…to win national tournaments….
The main protagonist is great though- Mikayla. Love her attitude. She doesn’t belong with that crowd. Her favorite verse, towards the end, comes out and gives the lie to the whole BS scene.
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Thanks Rick!
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Yes, Jesus, I want to come to you, but I don’t want to get caught up in the religious trap.
A fair statement, but I’m more and more convinced we need to be a lot less concerned about “religion” and “legalism” than we’ve been taught by the modern church.
There is real legalism, and then there is the drumbeat of endless “search out your motives” speak in order to basically abnegate every possible activity a Christian might consider doing. This just begets a hopeless internalism, one that is not really concerned with the real world, but is constantly on this worthless quest for “authentic, pure faith” that has no shred of self-righteousness in it.
People lose their faith this way, and set up cults this way. For my money, I’ll risk a little “religion” and just do my best to learn very thoroughly who Jesus is and what Jesus wants, from the canonical Gospels, and then take my best shot at applying that in/with my local church. I’ll pray for a readiness to repent and be humbled, but there really shouldn’t be a constant fear of “religion” keeping real life at bay. People who talk that way need to get a frickin hobby and lighten up.
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The problem comes with those who say Christ’s words in sacred Scripture have no more authority than those of any else’s in sacred Scripture. And I have observed that these folks can quite easily twist the words of St. Paul to accommodate their specific agendas, but they can NOT do the same thing with the Words of Christ Himself.
I remember quoting Christ’s Words to a person on a blog. And he said, ‘in other words, that means . . . ‘ and I stopped him and said that, with Christ, there ARE NO ‘in other words’.
This leads into the controversy over ‘red-letter’ Christianity, and also the controversy about whether or not the four Holy Gospels are at the heart of sacred Scripture. Does Christ speak and act in the very Person of God in the Bible? If He does, then how can God’s own words be of the same import as those of one of His creatures, especially when the creature’s words are twisted in a way that allows a Church leader to ignore the Royal Law of Christ?
This also leads into the whole scandal involving the removal of Christ as the ‘lens’ through which sacred Scripture is to be interpreted . . . done by the SBC in its 2000 Baptist Faith & Message . . .
some of the incidents that followed the removal would certainly not have been allowed had the Royal Law of Christ remained in full effect in that denomination as sacrosanct.
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I’m not following you. Are you saying the only “true Christians” are antinomian, and that the majority who call themselves “Christian” are not actually Christian but following some Law?
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I self-empty pretty regularly, even without the coffee.
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Loving God and loving others is much easier said than done; neither arises spontaneously out of my heart, that’s for sure. Both seem to me to require discipline and self-denial, which once again leads back into “religious stuff.” It’s possible to play the game of believing that you’re loving God and others when you in fact are not. Loving others requires self-knowledge and other-knowledge, and these too are disciplines.
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We Fordeian Lutherans (who happen to be centrist) scream Law …but to kill…not to make better…
and then we scream the gospel about as clearly as we can. And we hand over the sacraments, freely.
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Wow, ChrisS. That preaches! And I mean that in a GOOD way. Awesome words and insight.
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False. Lutheran theology is more sophisticated than that. Sure, some liberal Lutherans you’ve encountered may have shouted antinomianism, but not all do. Over-generalization is generally not helpful or truthful…
Like it wouldn’t be fair for me to assume that–because the Orthodox church I attended for a year got on to me for not dressing well enough on Sundays–that all Orthodox theology is similarly shallow and small-minded.
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Stuart,
I’m very acquainted with “Law” from my personality being inclined to trying to follow it, both as a Catholic and a Protestant. I can sniff it out a long ways away. I have experienced nothing in my life in the Orthodox Church that comes anywhere near it; it has all been Freedom for me. I have limited experience; I’ve only been part of one parish. The thing is, people with limited cognitive ability (small children, developmentally disabled people, elderly folks with dementia) who don’t know from Law can still participate fully in the life of the Church. That says a lot to me. Any Orthodox who try to impose Law are acting contrary to their stated theology, outside the ethos and understanding of the Church.
Generally, we do the things we do because those things are what Christians have done from the beginning. Anyone who’s trying to prove something doesn’t get it. God loves us all.
Dana
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Steve, it is nice to meet someone who is also good at multitasking. I think the worst part is that sometimes I am multitasking my sin while standing up front! I am minded of a Scripture that talks about millstones and tying them around my neck.
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The more liberal Lutherans are not screaming grace. They are screaming antinomianism, which is a different thing altogether.
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It requires at least two cups of coffee a day. Maybe three on Mondays.
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Conservative general Baptist/evangelical churches here, and HUG is spot on.
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The best thing to do is not play the game. Love God, love others, let everything else sort itself out.
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Which all sound like Law to me.
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Yes Joel. Isn’t that the nature of paradox and mystery. If it were plain it would be mundane. The only thing I can surmise is that something outwardly positive happens and it is a symptom, fruit if you will, of the internal goings on. We get it done to us. We get molded very slowly without ever having a chance to brag about it. Also, I think some of the most critical work that the Spirit does with our souls occurs in advanced years when our bodies begin to give way. If a life is not cut short, big growth awaits in the pains of old age. No one appears to be in a rush in the realm of the eternal and growth continues until the last breath if we remain open. Those are my thoughts. There is a definite tension there, no doubt.
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Rob,
we take Jesus seriously when he said “When you pray… When you fast… When you give alms.” We believe he intended for faithful people to keep doing those things, so they are important. We pray together and alone. We do not fast alone; the whole Church fasts together, though for some the fast may be modified (children, elderly, pregnant women, people with health issues) in consultation with one’s confessor. And the point of fasting is not fasting. Of course, giving alms means much more than simply dropping a check in the Poor Box… but it should at least be that much. Our parish as an entity also supports local charities, especially those that are serving in Jesus’ name, financially and with volunteer hours; no need for us to start up something that another group is already doing well. “Almsgiving” also includes the practicalities of loving our neighbor who actually lives in the house next door.
The most important thing, though, is that all of these practices are done as part and parcel of living the holistic life of the Church, which means participation in the sacramental life, not only “the sacraments,” but the Liturgy, and everything else; it’s a seamless thing. It’s not that those who are not Orthodox derive no benefit from the practices of prayer, fasting, etc.; of course they do. It’s also certainly not that one is supposed to run oneself ragged with activity in church, including attending services and doing service. There’s only one thing that is needful… I believe that the Orthodox Church gives me the best place and the most helpful “tools” as I am on the path toward that One Thing. It’s not Magick… and there is also such a thing as fullness…
Thank you for asking. If you have time and want to read further, a good resource is at oca dot org: hover your mouse over “The Orthodox Faith” in the row of boxes at the top of the home page, click on “The Orthodox Faith” and then go to Volume IV, “Spirituality.”
Dana
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The quote is – “Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither”
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I am finding this to be the reality of following Jesus, Chris. The hard part is reconciling this reality with is written in 2 Peter 1:5-9. I suppose this is why we have the tension Paul writes about in Romans 7.
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I would agree with you on Micah 6:8, except around here, it has been Rick Warrenized into episodic service projects for small groups. I always thought it was simple, treat people with respect, regardless of their social status. If you have employees, pay them fair wages and give them benefits like health insurance if at all possible. If you find someone in need, it’s okay to give them your spare change or buy them a meal, things like that. But it nearly ruined the verse entirely for me to have it plugged into something like, serve a meal at the homeless shelter and you will have met the requirements of this verse.
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Hi STUART,
I know that Wade Burleson does operate a ‘recovery program’ through his Church, Emmanuel Baptist Church in Enid, Oklahoma. He is Southern Baptist born and bred and is devoted to helping people who have been wounded including those injured by addiction. Wade has the reputation of someone who works from the heart of the Holy Gospels of Our Lord in his compassion for wounded and suffering people. There is a link on this blog to ‘W Burleson’ if you are interested in learning about his pastoral work in the area of recovery.
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Dana,
What are some of the key spiritual formation practices in Orthodoxy…I’m assuming the fasting schedule, Divine liturgy and praying any others?
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Hi JON,
thank you for responding . . . I did mention that the word was used on certain Southern Baptist sites to describe others, not as a self-description;
but HUG suggests something interesting to think about . . . that the Jewish concept of ‘a righteous person’ HAS been changed into something different by some folks within the evangelical community . . . I accept your witness that you haven’t seen it done personally in your experience, but I have observed that even recently, the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) has mounted a campaign against certain ‘sins’ they have specifically identified publicly and focused a lot of attention on labeling those with certain burdens in their lives as ‘sinners’. Their recent campaign targeting those who suffer from transgender issues was very publicly presented and there is no doubt in my mind that the effort to suggest that they were telling ‘the truth in love’ failed to impress those who know the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican.
I myself wondered why it was that with so many internal issues, the SBC focused its critical attention outside of itself and onto people who are suffering with transgender issues. It was frankly a bizarre display not worthy of the great Southern Baptist tradition of devoted missionary work in the world.
This is just my opinion, JON. My own Church certainly has many of its own problems, so I am in no position to judge, but it is difficult to see something and not make the connections that seem so obvious;
and yes, may God forgive me my foolish way of jumping to conclusions and not getting to know individual people in a faith community. We are all of us vulnerable to seeing fault outside of ourselves while being blind to our own burden of pride and I am certainly no exception.
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Robert,
lots of sincere, loving people who truly want to follow Jesus end up here. I know I did.
Fr Stephen Freeman has been posting on this topic off and on for the past couple of months, beginning with “You’re Not Doing Better” on 5 December. It’s been a fascinating read, with some very perceptive comments. As a recovering perfectionist, it has been of tremendous help to me.
The point is, our life in Christ is not ultimately about “morality” or “progress” – it is about transformation, and how that transformation happens is a mystery. We may have some glimpses of how, but mostly we don’t know, mostly because it’s beyond our knowing, except that it is “in Christ.” We do know that living in the sacrament life of the church and practicing what are known as “the spiritual disciplines” can put us in a “place” where we can experience some of that transformation. But it is wrapped up in so much that is unknown. As 21st century heirs of Enlightenment Dualistic Rationalism (even if we see the many problems with that), that makes us twitch.
It has been blessedly helpful for me to have encountered the wise words of a couple of contemporary Orthodox thinkers and pastors on that score, aside from Fr Stephen. Bishop Kallistos Ware wrote, “To keep us in simplicity, God may hide our spiritual progress from us, and it is not for us to measure ourselves.” This taking of my eyes of myself in this manner seems healthy to me. Fr Tom Hopko has written that the best advice on how to “live a spiritual life” was given to him by his mother: “Go to church. Say your prayers. Remember God.” So yes, “religious activity” – but the last thing must be present for that activity to be doing any good. Simple, but not easy.
I would only add that it seems reasonable to pray for a pure heart, so that we may see God – with committing ourselves into his hands without any expectations for him – or for us – about how he will accomplish that. For me, this has brought more peace than I have words to describe. In the Orthodox Church, it’s perfectly okay to be honest with God and say say, “You see, Lord, that I’m having trouble with (insert here “religious activity” or “spiritual attitude” we wish we were “doing better”). Have mercy on me.” Orthodoxy agrees with 12-Step about getting rid of “shoulds”.
[“Lord, have mercy” in Orthospeak means: “Lord, I trust you to act according to your chesed (faithful love, goodness, kindness, benevolence, compassion) in this matter.” It’s an extremely serious expression of trust – as much trust as I have in any given moment…]
Dana
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HUG,
I realize that our experience could be vastly different. But again, I’ve spent my whole life in conservative SBC churches, and I’ve never heard anyone speak of themselves that way. I have never heard a single person call themselves godly or even righteous. I’m not saying that I have never encountered self righteous or hypocritical people in these churches, but even they are smart enough not to call themselves godly.
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Wow. This is spot on. Reminds me why I was originally drawn to IM years ago.
As someone with a family member pretty deeply into a particular fundamentalist movement, I’ve seen this and heard the whole godly/godliness language quite a bit.
A couple of thoughts:
1) He’s right. It doesn’t really work, and a lot of times it makes things worse because it engenders spiritual pride. I’ve seen some really callous and immoral actions from people wrapped up in this, but that’s a story for another day.
2)There’s a flawed underlying but mostly unspoken premise, and that is that one must be constantly striving to achieve this godliness, righteousness, or whatever it’s called. There’s little realization that God came to us in the Incarnation and still does.
3) There are a lot of people invested in making it all sound complicated when it’s not. I always go back to Micah 6:8 — Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. Not easy, but certainly not complicated.
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To add a Thomas Merton quote:
Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think that I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire.
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Yup. More law.
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1. Lots to admire about Wesley, but from my perspective his disciples have created the royal mess we find ourselves in, including carving out this post-evangelical niche.
2. More laws. Or some weird quasi spiritual musings about us not physically being here but seated with Christ blah blah pray in tongues.
3. See #2.
/s mostly. I’ve yet to hear good answers to those questions, but they are very important questions we all start to ask very quickly.
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“About “self-emptying” perhaps – as elusive as this concept is to me I’m moving in the direction of seeing it as true and not mere modern psycho-babble.”
This is where my experience has led me. But self-emptying requires practices, disciplines; it doesn’t just happen on its own. It seems you have to run the risk of religious practices and disciplines, one way or the other; but I think there is a fundamental difference between practices and disciplines that involve “letting go” and trusting, on the one hand, and extraordinary exertions to “do the right thing” born out of fear on the other. The first type employs volition in such a way that volition is allowed to slip away, and opens out onto vistas wherein the hard knot of self-exertion is gradually undone; the other entrenches volition as the fundamental religious imperative of the spiritual life, and places the isolated self at the center of the universe.
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You can’t have a personal relationship with Jesus unless you are religious.
boom!
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Just like “Intelligent Design” has come to mean “YEC Uber Alles”, so “godly” has come to mean a one-upmanship game of “*I* Am So HOLY”.
In the original language of the Tanakh, “Righteousness” also had a meaning of “Justice”, not just personal Godliness as it does in English. Then Entropy sets in, and “Righteousness” becomes “How Godly *I* Am (and You’re NOT!)”
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And yet the more conservative Lutherans I know just look and scream Law to me in their lifestyle.
Yet the liberal Lutherans I know are the exact opposite, looking and screaming grace.
Why is that?
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The bait and switch occurs when someone brings up that those who love Jesus follow his commandments. Which commandments? Here’s a list, and we’ve added a few specifically for you. Don’t you love Jesus? Don’t you love him so much that you hate your sin and don’t want to do anything ever that hurts him? If you love him you’ll obey him.
law/gospel/law
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Also, I’ve never been much of a tobacco user, but after 5 years of trying 2-3 cigars a year, I’ve come to the conclusion I’m not much of a fan. I’ve had one or two that were decent, most taste terrible, and I hate the spit and the grit.
Just purchased a vape starter pack a month or so ago and I’m enjoying that. Figure it’s a good way to still fellowship with my friends who do enjoy smoking cigars and pipes, and I can adjust the nicotine level (I’m at 3mg, the step above 0) so I get a little bit of the buzz but mostly just good flavor.
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No, religious definitely has it’s purpose. It provides order and structure for those who find comfort in that. Increasingly I’m turned off by any “relationship” type talk in the church, I’d rather be in, go through the motions, and then leave to go back out into all the relationships I’m a part of.
I think the reason so many AAs/etc don’t like religious people, despite the irony of them meeting in churches and being very religious themselves, is the pride thing. They know they are low, even if in this one area, but they are surrounded by people who fake it. Are they the ones praying for you? Sometimes. The good ones are. The rest that no one would trash the place.
Incidentally, I’ve never been a part of a Baptist/Evangelical church that had a AA meeting in it. That seems to be a more mainline thing. There have been recovery type meetings, but I imagine those were more internally driven and for those who just like a little too much wine with their dinner (AA meetings where an A stands for Appearance). But actual AA meetings…Lutheran or mainline, and almost always an older building. Or that is my perception.
AA would be too real for too many.
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“If you memorize Scripture, pray a lot and do religious stuff, you will sin less, be more obedient and have a powerful witness for Christ in the world.”
It may be true that people say things like this, but I wish that someone had taught me that much of the time you can just quit examining your motives and muscle through according procedure. That it’s not “religious’ to expect to get something done, and that the Christian life involves making choices that have practical results. Even if it’s a different sort of practicality from that of the world.
That the paralysis of the “don’t be legalistic” mantra in churches is probably just as soul-killing as legalism itself.
Brown gets it right because he’s contrasting these silly systems for godliness with Jesus. We get it wrong, in my opinion, when we contrast a plan, a law, a system, deeds or whatever, with a generalized loosy-goosiness about everything. Moving in the Spirit is not akin to spontaneity or a lowering of standards, or an “i’m a worm and I can do nothing” ethic, but to the Way of Jesus. These are nowhere near the same thing. It took me a long time to learn that, and when I did I couldn’t think of anyone in my Christian experience that had significantly taught me how to do anything that I really needed to do.
I like the picture in Perelandra where Ransom is confronted with a demonic power that has taken control of a man’s body and is making a parody of human life, threatening to destroy the yet unsullied Creation on the planet Venus. Ransom spends a lot of time verbally reasoning with it, and then at some point realizes it’s useless, and starts pummeling the demon with all his might. It is through brute force that he overcomes the evil one in the end. There might be a mis-application of this, but as allegory I think it’s a great image.
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Does anyone know what the original C.S. Lewis quote is that the writer paraphases?
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–The answer is not self-evident. And anytime I’ve ever heard answers given to this question, they always end up including “religious stuff.”
Well said. That’s the same spin cycle that I end up in.
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Steve Brown is a name that makes me twitch, but I’m guessing this is not the same Steve Brown who has a late night radio show and dozens of books about pentecostal spiritual warfare and prophecy.
Good article. And definitely heresy to many. Grace, that scandalous thing.
I’ve been loosely thinking about the law/grace divide recently, and am starting to come to the conclusion that all of Christianity really is about the law, it’s just how one gets there that is different. Really, the only true christians are those who believe in antinomianism. Because no matter how many ways you spin it, for the majority of christians, it all comes back to Law.
I don’t have all this teased out just yet, it comes and goes, but that’s what I’m starting to see.
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“”What is the point then? The point is Jesus.
Jesus said that if we were really tired, we should come to him.
Jesus said that if our lives were empty, we could come to him and he would give us abundant life.
Jesus said that if we were sick, sinful and very needy, he would be there for us.
Jesus said that he came to love the people who couldn’t pull off the religious thing.
Jesus said that he was a shepherd and not a butcher. He loved the sheep and gave his life for them.
Jesus said that he was light for the darkness, bread for the hungry, water for the thirsty.
Jesus said that if we ran to him, he would never kick us out.”
This begs the question: If Jesus said that we should come to him, how do we do that?
The answer is not self-evident. And anytime I’ve ever heard answers given to this question, they always end up including “religious stuff.”
I’m tired, I’m empty, I’m sick and sinful and very needy, I can’t pull off the religious thing, I’m a sheep, I’m in darkness, I’m hungry and thirsty. Okay, I acknowledge all those things; I hear the words, and the call in them. What next? What do I do?
Please don’t tell me to turn to my Baptism, and remember that in Baptism Christ has accepted me forever; or to receive his Body and Blood in Holy Communion, and know that what I receive there is enough. I do these things, on a weekly or daily basis, and mostly it just involves performing ritual, religious acts, and saying a lot of theologically unexceptionable things to myself about them, and never having any sense that anything is really happening or changing in me.
Please also don’t tell me that I shouldn’t put much value in what I feel, since God works in the Sacraments in ways that most of the time can’t be measured or felt. When you say such things and leave it at that, you’ve given me some interesting theological words and ideas, but said nothing that helps me deal with the inner hell that I experience. It’s like telling someone hungry, “Go in peace, brother, and I will pray for you.” Better that you say nothing at all, if you are going to answer my question at a different level than the one it was asked from, especially when my question is an earthy,existential, visceral one, and you’ve answered it from the cold heights of theological speculation and cogitation. You’re answer is all head, and no trunk; it’s no good.
Yes, Jesus, I want to come to you, but I don’t want to get caught up in the religious trap. The way is indeed narrow, and I for one have no idea how to follow it without falling into thickets I have never been able to extricate myself from. Apparently, neither does anybody else.
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Some initial thoughts and questions:
Love Steve Brown, and agree with his Christocentric focus, but…..
1) His Reformed theology may be driving this too much. Not sure Wesley would agree with this position.
2) What is involved in “abiding in Christ”? Are we not to hope for the fruit of the Spirit?
3) How are we transformed by the renewing of our minds?
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I get that there’s a lot of Mike H’s out there – but a little weird to see it above.
Thinking out loud for a minute here. Suppose that we cleanly (dualistically) divide the Christian world up into two groups of people (1)those pursuing “godliness” (defined as being religious) and (2)the “I’m not religious, I have a personal relationship” crowd.
We can look at the way group #1 might practice their faith. We’d hear a good deal from certain groups about the necessity of the sacraments, the need to go to church and be in relationships, the disciplines of prayer or confession, being disciplined in how a person spends their time, the need to know the Bible, perhaps the need to legislate morality, some Orthodox might jump in and talk about….Orthodoxy and Tradition, or some will emphasize how God does it ALL (except when He doesn’t) where any kind of tangible activity is law. So you end up with a pretty stringent, religious picture of what “godliness” means.
Now look at group #2 – the “it’s not religion, it’s relationship” approach. They might say, we don’t get caught up in all that religious stuff – we just come to Jesus. So how, one might ask, does a person “come to Jesus”. Well, you should take the sacraments, you should be in relationships with people because you can’t do this journey alone, talk to God in prayer – that’s how you come to him, “spend time” with Jesus because you can’t really be in relationship with someone when you’re off doing other stuff all the time, read your Bible in order to know Jesus, etc. etc.
You may not end up with books and programs about “godliness”, but you end up with stacks of books and programs about “how to know Jesus better without religion”. It’s easy to believe in a God who is constantly disappointed and generally angry in either of these approaches – whether in our lack of religious progress or that we don’t “come to him”, or that we take the relationship too lightly. It’s also possible, thru religious structure, to come to believe that God is kind and forgiving and generous. Systems can be helpful or hurtful. In the end, what’s the difference here? In the end, we have to do something in a way that we participate in our own existence don’t we? So is it just a matter of motivation? It does seem like it ends up being about one’s heart and one’s disposition towards God – the kind of being one perceives God to be. About “self-emptying” perhaps – as elusive as this concept is to me I’m moving in the direction of seeing it as true and not mere modern psycho-babble.
Not disagreeing with the article and probably getting into topics that he didn’t really intend to address. It’s a great article. This type of stuff just spins me in circles a little bit.
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🙂
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I’ve never been able to practice humility, but I’ve been humbled many times. I can only hope that humbling is having a good affect on me.
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It’s very refreshing to hear what we Lutherans have been saying for 500 years…and what St. Paul has been saying for 2000 years (give or take)…that being that we are DECLARED holy and righteous for Jesus’ sake. Not even for our own sakes.
A lot of other Christians know this as well. There’s no ‘cornering the market’ on this good news.
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I know that just trying to grind it out is not the way. But I spent almost 15 years in a group that at least tried to be focused on Jesus to the exclusion of all else. And even declared in different terms that if you got your focus on Jesus right, the righteousness/godliness would happen. And for most it never did.
That is not it. And while I don’t think Steve was saying that, my experience now is that there is insufficient emphasis on actually living godly lives. The way I read it, some were called to “follow” in the sense of those who gave up other ambitions to be His disciples for the purpose of being teachers and leaders. But all of us are called to godliness. Surely the religious duty is not getting us there. But neither will ignoring it.
Where is your heart, mind, and will as you do them? That will determine where it takes you.
What I’ve found is that what some call religious duty is for others their pathway to Christ. It is not what is done so much as how and why it is done. We need the religious stuff, but not in the way of things to do, but in disciplines to draw closer to Christ. And we need to be stepping out to walk according to the Spirit, not just waiting for the Spirit to push us in the right direction as a sort of byproduct of other things. I don’t think that the charges in the sermon on the mount were given to make us feel inadequate until it falls on us from somewhere else. We were/are to hunger and thirst for righteousness; seek God; have a humble/poor spirit; turn the other cheek; do more than asked. It is a package deal. Not one or the other.
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This touches on the essential mystery of Christianity. At first blush it is a religion designed to make good behaving citizens. The fact is, you don’t get better, you just get older. With years of struggle and failure behind you, you simply become kinder, more merciful, more empathic. You know what a louse you are and how bumbling but God continues to love you because God is love so the only possible response is to abandon everything (the cross) to that love. The odd thing is that you may appear more “godly” because you have learned some humility as a result of the long arduous road but you are in fact no more righteous than when you took your first step. All righteousness and all glory is God’s. He imputes it to us as a gift. St. Francis acted insane a few times just to wreak havoc on his godly reputation. He didn’t want anyone getting the wrong idea. The Desert Fathers were known to do some crazy stuff as well to dispel any myths about the plateaus of righteousness they were thought to have reached.
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Yes!!!!
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Jesus observed the Sabbath. He went up on the mountain to pray every night. I’m sure there were many things He did to be close to His father. He did these things religiously. I don’t think doing things religiously is a bad thing. I think works oriented thinking can be a bad thing.
My son couldn’t understand why we wouldn’t want to do things for ourselves. He was younger and Jesus was new to his life having been recently invited in at 21 or 22, I’d have to ask again. Not a church goer yet and believes he can encounter God outside of it. My son’s insights are eye opening to me at times. I tried to explain the dangers of such thinking and where it leads when it comes to God. Self righteousness and being better and all.
There are things I do religiously that have nothing to do with religion. Getting the bad stuff out, you know the stuff that hurts me. Wish I could do that but I can’t. It comes when I get freed from it by Him. Wish I had a formula. I don’t. I know when I gave up tobacco after 33 years ( a pinch between the cheek and gums) I was praying about my health to Him and He showed that to me and I threw it out and He said it was His and He wasn’t giving it back. He said every time I would think of it He would be there to tell me He loved me and He wasn’t giving it back and wanted me not to be a slave to it any more. He keeps His word. What I thought would be very hard wasn’t. I don’t know why other things haven’t been that way. Wish I could tell you. I do know if I died a smoker it wouldn’t have diminished His love for me. I understand that today. My life is better without tobacco. My life would be better without other stuff. Love broke the habit. It is what I seek and cannot do on my own. I know it is the most powerful force in the universe of everywhere all the time.
I get the jist of the writing above I agree with it in the way it is meant. I don’t think religious is necessarily a bad word. I went to meetings in a 12 step and people there have a problem with “church people”. Funny, they usually meet in the building funded by them. Funny, most of them attend religiously. One person stood up one day and said you all say you don’t like them but they are the ones praying for you. Well maybe not all of them but enough. Works oriented people are harder for sure. My son would think working is a good thing. It is when it isn’t done for anything else but doing good for goodness sake. James had it right.
I have to step back from this. Way back…..peace to you all in the day to days
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Steve Brown is The Man.
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Christiane,
The word godly is used in most of the popular English bible translations. Here is one example from the NIV:
Titus 2:12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
Every community, including the RCC, is going to have its own particular vocabulary, and that is not a bad thing. And I guess I would rather be accused of speaking ‘Christianese’ than to think I can’t use words that are actually in the bible.
As for your last paragraph, I’m from the SBC. I don’t know anyone who has ever described themselves as godly. I know many who say that want to be godly or try to be godly, but no one who has ever thought they actually achieved it, especially the ones who are the most godly (or saintly for you Catholic folk).
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Okay. I go along with everything said here, I think.
But the main reason I think I should be more “godly” is because I’m in pain, physical, spiritual, emotional, and I believe being more “godly” will help diminish all that pain. That may be an erroneous belief, in fact it must be in many respects, but it’s amazingly persistent. It would take extraordinary discipline to root it out of my belief system, the kind of discipline that I know I lack precisely because I’m not much good at religious stuff.
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I’ve read that word ‘godly’ before on Southern Baptist blogs, but in my Church I haven’t heard it spoken as an adjective in the way that some Southern Baptists use it to describe someone they think is a righteous person.
The term ‘godly’ must be a kind of ‘Christianese’ for only some faith communities. I guess it doesn’t fit in my Church because we do so much corporate ‘mea culpa’;
and when we do speak about the ‘saints’, it is often as examples of how holiness while in this life IS POSSIBLE, even under the worst of conditions.
Come to think of it, many saints were too humble to consider themselves anything other than ‘sinners saved by Christ’, in which case the description ‘godly’ would be something they wouldn’t recognize for themselves (if ‘godly’ means what I think it means as a recognition of their self-righteousness).
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Spot on.Thanks for sharing it.
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Ouch. That one hurt…but in a good way.
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